A Little Too Good To Be True
The Columbus Dispatch reports from Ohio. “The mortgage crisis has harmed virtually everyone, leaving a wake of foreclosures and falling property values that will ripple through neighborhoods for years to come. No longer is the problem confined to poor neighborhoods.”
“Rodney Young lives in a neighborhood on the city’s Far East Side, that contains several subdivisions where homes typically are valued at between $70,000 and $200,000. Young bought his home in 1997 for $74,500 and signed a fixed-rate mortgage that steadied his monthly house payment at about $700.”
“Like many other families, his was blitzed by advertisements from lenders to refinance. Young and his family had built up debt and decided to consolidate it into a refinanced loan. In 2006, Young signed a new loan with a beginning interest rate of 11.8 percent that could have climbed to nearly 18 percent.”
“They refinanced again in 2007. Now, their monthly payments could nearly double to $1,400. Young says he’s angry at mortgage lenders and himself. He’s angry for signing loans that may cause him to lose his home and eliminate any chance to move into a bigger one. ‘A lot of us were sold a dream,’ Young said, ‘and now we are living a nightmare.’”
“About three blocks from Young’s home, James Roy built his fiancee’s dream house, complete with vaulted ceilings, plush carpet and nearly every upgrade offered. The price: $178,000. Roy, however, had to pay only $1,000 out of pocket.”
“‘I figured the value was only going to get higher, so why not build the best house we could?’ Roy said. ‘It did seem a little too good to be true.’”
“Roy, who had a poor credit score at the time, soon learned that the two loans he signed to finance the home were anything but a dream. To avoid paying mortgage insurance, Roy received one loan that covered 80 percent of the borrowed amount, with an 8.5 percent adjustable interest rate that continued to climb to nearly 12 percent.”
“The second loan, covering 20 percent of what he borrowed, was fixed at an interest rate just above 11 percent. Roy’s monthly house payments rose from $1,400 to $1,600 after six months and were scheduled to climb higher.”
“He then looked to refinance late last year and was besieged by out-of-town lenders offering consolidation loans. One company appraised Roy’s home at $167,000. He eventually refinanced his loan with a fixed rate, but now Roy, who rolled other debt into the mortgage, has even bigger house payments on a home that has lost value.”
“‘I’ll take some of the blame for signing loans like that, but these companies are good at confusing people,’ Roy said. ‘They shouldn’t talk to people about ARMs and adjustable rates and all that. Just tell us the bottom line in dollars and cents. But they don’t do that, and now I’m stuck. A whole lot of us are stuck.’”
The Journal Sentinel from Wisconsin. “Foreclosures increased almost 45% in Milwaukee County during the first five months of the year compared with 2007, according to circuit court records. The entire seven-county Milwaukee area saw a nearly 40% year-to-date increase.”
“The spike in foreclosures ‘could be a signal that house prices started declining between six and 18 months ago,’ said Morris Davis, a professor of real estate and urban land economics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.”
“He said there is a lag between when a person falls behind on mortgage payments and when a property is put into foreclosure by a lender. When people find they owe more on a house than it is worth, they are more likely to let a foreclosure proceed than to fight it, he said.”
“Mike Ruzicka, president of the Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors in Wauwatosa, agrees that foreclosure activity probably will continue to increase into next year. That is because a number of adjustable rate mortgages are set to readjust this summer, which could make them less affordable to more people, he said.”
“He also said that with increasing foreclosures, it is becoming harder for agents to negotiate price concessions. When a buyer offers a bank less than the value of a loan for a property in foreclosure, the bank ‘wants to sell (the property), but they are being fairly stiff on bending on price concessions,’ he said.”
“It was much easier to get a price concession when banks were foreclosing on houses with loans of less than their value, he said.”
From Business North on Wisconsin. “Willard Ogren, president of Security State Bank in Iron River, said loan delinquencies are up from a year ago and banks’ net interest margins - the difference between the rates at which they lend money and have to pay for deposits - have been squeezed.”
“And that’s falling to their bottom lines. Financial results for many of the 49 community banks and largest credit unions in the region declined in 2007 from a year earlier.”
“Superior Choice Credit Union in Superior, one of the region’s largest with $144.9 million in loans and other assets at Dec. 31, is working its way through a far larger Florida participation loan pool that soured in the real estate bust.”
“Superior Choice took a $4.7 million charge for loan and lease losses during 2007 - up 10-fold from 2006.
“Gary Elliott, Superior Choice CEO, refused to discuss details of the 2007 losses and a pending lawsuit the credit union filed against a larger credit union in Fort Collins, CO. Norlarco Credit Union in Fort Collins arranged a construction loan pool for building upscale second homes in Florida in 2003 amid the real estate boom there.”
“The Norlarco saga has stoked new fuel on longstanding criticism commercial banks have aimed at credit unions that stray from the rationale for their state and federal income tax exemptions: providing credit and lower interest rates to people of modest means.”
“Kurt Bauer, CEO of the Wisconsin Bankers Association, said Superior Choice’s participation in risky, luxury home development in Florida, as well as small business lending on its home turf, stretches that mission to the breaking point.”
“‘This is a major loss for a $150 million institution,’ he said. ‘This is a credit union that engaged in suspect loans 1,500 miles from the shores of Lake Superior. What does that have to do with serving low to moderate income people?’”
The Star Tribune from Minnesota. “Drive west across the Ford Bridge and after a sweeping turn you’ll arrive at one of the gateways to Minneapolis. There’s a nice-looking luxury condo building at the first stoplight. But it exists only on a fabric advertising screen that’s attached to a tall chain-link fence.”
“The 46th & 46th Lofts project has been inactive since last year. Council Member Lisa Goodman, whose ward includes downtown, wants stiffer requirements for site maintenance before she’s willing to extend deadlines for any projects.”
“She’s irate over the condition of a half-dozen stalled sites downtown. The issue hits home for her because her condo building overlooks a site she describes as neglected.”
“One corner at S. 10th Street and Nicollet Mall draws particular ire from Goodman and others. The Nicollet, a 56-story condo tower, was to break ground there a year ago. A two-story building to be razed for the stalled project features windows that are broken or boarded, peeling window frames and graffiti.”
“‘The public asks me all the time, ‘Why isn’t the city doing something about this?’ Goodman said.”
“Back at the 46th & 46th Lofts, developer Don Gerberding said the project is the first of the firm’s numerous Minneapolis housing projects that has been so problematic. He said it’s the victim of a sour housing market, and that he understands neighborhood frustrations.”
“‘It’s unfortunate; I don’t have a magic wand. We’re faced with some economic times now where there aren’t some easy answers,’ he said.”
“Gerberding said he’s encouraged by neighborhood feedback not to cheapen the project in an effort to get it completed. And he said that despite prices of up to $650,000, the project reached 80 percent of the threshold set by lenders for pre-sold units before buyers began dropping out because they couldn’t sell their homes.”
“‘That’s a pretty good indication that the project has legs and will go,’ he said.”
“In large swaths of the Twin Cities and across the state, 40 percent of more than 50,000 subprime loans will jump to higher payments this year. Another 22 percent will reset after this year.”
“In Twin Cities suburbs, where home construction once boomed, hundreds of square miles are dotted with the homes of tens of thousands of subprime borrowers who will skid into higher monthly payments in 2008. Seventy-seven percent of such loans were taken out after 2004.”
“The figures include an estimated 70 percent of all Minnesota subprime mortgages and 95 percent of ‘Alt-A’ mortgages — home loans that didn’t require proof of income, demanded little or no money down or were otherwise unconventional.”
“In the universe of subprime loans, only about 59 percent of subprime loans were current, as of October 2007, the Fed study found. Almost 87 percent of Alt-A loans were current.”
“”Sharon Young, a homeowner on the East Side of St. Paul, and her husband were renters until they bought their first house three years ago. They bought an adjustable-rate mortgage that started with payments of $1,679 a month. In March 2007, the monthly payment was reset to $2,218.”
“The couple, with a combined gross income of $77,000, couldn’t manage the $539 monthly increase. ‘Our mortgage company refused to negotiate,’ she said.”
“Sharon said she quit making payments a year ago and expects to lose her home to foreclosure this summer or fall. Paying for food, utilities and other expenses demanded much of the extra $539 a month the mortgage lender demanded.”
“‘We rob Peter and Paul doesn’t get paid,’ she said.”
“Refinancing is out of the question. Young and her husband bought the house for $250,000. A recent appraisal put its value at $170,000. Young’s assessment of home ownership: ‘It was a disaster.’”
The Buffalo Reflex from Missouri. “If you’re looking for culprits in the current U.S. housing crisis, they aren’t hard to find because they encompass every segment of the subprime lending industry, according to Bill Monday, president of the O’Bannon Banking Co.”
“Speaking at the May 28 meeting of the Buffalo Rotary Club, Monday said companies gave housing loans to people who couldn’t afford them, and many consumers fraudulently misrepresented their stated incomes.”
“‘Many people received loans for more money than their houses were worth,’ he said.”
“‘It all started with greed on the part of lenders, builders, developers and others,’ Monday said. ‘This included the forgery of fraudulent documents, appraisal fraud and in some cases title companies just keeping the money instead of paying off the mortgage company. A lot of mortgage lenders’ underwriting practices became lax.’”
“Many lots were never built on and many houses were never completed. Foreclosures in April were up 65 percent over last April, Monday said.”
“Monday stressed that the southwest Missouri economy never reaches the extreme highs and lows that other parts of the country do, and this was the case with the housing crisis. Still, there has been a record number of foreclosures in Greene County in recent months, and property appraisals in Christian County are 33 percent lower than they were previously.”
“He said he foresees it taking several years to recover from the housing downturn - possibly longer than 2010. When high gas and food prices are added to the mix, ‘we are in a crisis like we haven’t seen before.’”
“Congress and the Bush administration are working on some possible solutions, which could include a possible bailout by taxpayers. He said this would be unfair to those who have done a good job of keeping up with their house payments over the years.”
“‘But if the government lets it crash, it could be a total disaster,’ he said.”
The St Charles Journal from Missouri. “A May 13 housing analysis by the St. Charles County Community Development Department shows foreclosures skyrocketed in 2007 across the country, affecting 875 properties.”
“That’s twice the number of properties affected by foreclosures in 2006, and nearly three times the number of properties affected by foreclosure in 2004 and 2005.”
“Citing the county housing report, Gary Podhorsky, community planning manager for St. Charles County, said while there were 634 foreclosure actions in the county in 2007, 875 properties were affected.”
“The discrepancy in number of properties and foreclosure actions is accounted for by multiple properties owned by a single person, most often a home builder, who loses multiple properties at a time.”
“Sales, too, have taken a hit in St. Charles County. Mark Stallmann, CEO of the St. Charles County Association of Realtors, said existing home sales were down in April to 405 from 485 over the same period a year ago.”
“From March 2007 to March of this year, a MarketGraphics report shows there were 2,770 closings on new single and multifamily homes, compared to 4,104 between July 2004 and July 2005, when the housing market was at its strongest.”
“Don Rogers, an agent in St. Charles and last year’s president of the Realtors association, says many folks are simply looking for a deal that is too good to pass up, recalling a property he showed last week in the $60,000 range that the buyers wanted for even cheaper.”
“‘We can always find something negative in everything we do,’ Rogers said of the rough appraisal the housing market has been receiving. However, he still says the market needs more absorption.”
“St. Charles Association of Realtors President Keith McCulloh said that he tries to remind people that with the big rises in the housing market in years past, ‘once we get to the top, we need to come down a little bit.’”
‘About three blocks from Young’s home, James Roy built his fiancee’s dream house, complete with vaulted ceilings, plush carpet and nearly every upgrade offered. The price: $178,000. Roy, however, had to pay only $1,000 out of pocket.’
‘I figured the value was only going to get higher, so why not build the best house we could?’ Roy said.’
A good example of flimsy speculation, and nothing can change the course of prices. The article mentions empty, foreclosed houses all over the place. And note the 2004-05 mention of a peak in Missouri. These places had a bubble, it just topped out sooner than Florida and Arizona, etc.
‘St. Charles Association of Realtors President Keith McCulloh said that he tries to remind people that with the big rises in the housing market in years past’…
“St. Charles Association of Realtors President Keith McCulloh said that he tries to remind people that with the big rises in the housing market in years past, ‘once we get to the top, we need to come down a little bit.’”
No, actually, Keith, ‘once we get to the top’ of a bubble, we need to come down a LOT!
More greetings from the road.
Funny thing, when you talk to a realtard here (in StL until sunday), they love to spout off on how everything is great here, it’s those crazy californians who are loosing their houses. When I mention I’m relocating from Northern CA, they get this weird look. I can’t tell if it’s greed thinking I’m a rich equity locust or fear that I’m going to need a contingency to sell a house in CA before hypothetically closing here. Regardless, they sure seem a lot less smug then their CA cousins and we’re looking in the “rich” area.
St. Charles is just north of here (CWE, U city) though I’m not sure what the area is like. I’m hoping the flashflood and twister warnings abate tomorrow so I can check out the surrounding areas. I understand the northern areas, close to the Ill state line, are bad but suburban ring is supposed to be ok?
BTW 178k is a lot for a house here. Wages aren’t that much lower, about even for the central valley.
Hows the economy and the weather? those go far in determining long term housing values.
Well the weather is interesting. It’s hot, cloudy, and really muggy. If you get near tornado conditions, the air turns green. I have no clue why but it’s really weird. Now lots of people don’t like the humidity but I do. 80 degrees and 70% humidity is about perfect.
The economy isn’t great but I’m coming from Sacramento and it’s about the same as there for low and median income. Our incomes will stay about the same. Big salaries are rare - stay on the coasts for those. Actually, it reminds me a lot of Sacramento, the good and the very bad but without Bay Area investors buying everything. Gross Rents don’t cover housing prices except in the low income areas. The sort of have their version of a mini bubble that is just deflating now. We’ll be renting for a few years then plan on paying cash for a smaller place or about 60% down for bigger house. I’m still trying to figure out what taxes are like.
Several of my relatives live in the StL area, including my sister, proud owner of not just one, but two, St Charles County homes. Her husband decided it was time to move up at the end of 2006, and ignoring his BIL’s sage advice, they bought a second home for maybe 2X the value of the first in 12/06. They have been fixing up the first one ever since (BIL is a self-do-it guy who never would trust a contractor to get the work done right) and are almost ready to sell it now, 1 1/2 years later and with a burgeoning foreclosure crisis glutting the market with used home inventory. I expect them to lose the full value of my BIL’s rehabbing effort and then some to the downtrend in prices.
It dumbfounds me that three of my siblings (my own sister, plus one SIL and one BIL) are caught up in the unraveling of this housing bubble. I long ago gave up offering my advice, as it became clear to me at some point that my opinions have little effect on my relatives’ financial decisions, regardless of the strength of my admonitions.
Ms. Jane, let me save you the trouble and gas money since I grew up there. Don’t cross the Missouri into St. Charles, there really is not an educated person there. The only ‘livable’ area really is Chesterfield, and even that will require serious adjustments coming from CA. Best of luck.
We’re looking at the area right around Washington U only. Zero interest in the suburbs. What we are looking forward to walking 2 blocks to campus.
I would also take a quick look at some topo maps.
We have cousins who live in a relatively new estate in St. Charles that is built right on the flood plain. The builders specifically put in flood channels all around the houses, but they’re not that deep…
‘I figured the value was only going to get higher, so why not build the best house we could?’ Roy said.’
I found myself thinking this same thing! Of course, that was back in 2001/2002 (IIRC), and that was how I first began to suspect there might be a bubble brewing.
I had purchased a house in 1996 for what I thought at the time was a RIDICULOUS amount of money (moving from the midwest to the Seattle area)–and I started finding myself wishing I had paid even more, so that the percentage gains (~10-20%) would have generated more profit. And then I realized how crazy that was: what kind of sense did it make to wish for MORE debt?
And then I wondered “What would happen if everyone started feeling the same way and bought as much housing as they could possibly afford to maximize gains?”
Possible weekend topic: when was the moment when the possibility of a housing bubble first occurred to you?
For me, it was when I realized back in late 2003 to 2004 two things: housing prices should not double in a few years (unless incomes also double, but that doesn’t happen anymore), and when a person such as myself who makes the median HOUSEHOLD income for an area can’t even afford an entry level house in an older area when using the standard debt to income rules, there is something seriously wrong.
Sadly, here we are 4 years later, and the reality of all this is only starting to dawn on the sheeple even as the spin-masters try to do anything possible to keep the Bubble propped up. Ugh!
2003 when prices went up 100k in 30 days and the owners sold right away. Shacks, shanties, major fixers. When Granite was all the rage.
No really, when I looked around at the valley and realized that in the 94-97 yrs you saw contractors having 2 jobs, one of which was masseuse etc just to make ends meet. Then in late 98 all the workers on site which were anglo colored people suddenly were all mexican americans. Not being disparaging here,honest, but the crews were suddenly much different and everyone began sporting f150s and business signs on trucks. There wasn’t enough workers period to handle the building. That is when I realized something had tilted off kilter.
For me it was when I discovered I or my neighbors couldn’t afford to buy our houses If we didn’t already own them.
It wasn’t rocket science thinking to conclude prices were way out of line with incomes.
“when was the moment when the possibility of a housing bubble first occurred to you?”
I first realized it on a sunny day in Moab when I was out watering the lizards and noticed my house looked a little strange - the walls looked a bit puffy and the roof seemed a bit higher. I got worried and sold it.
Things were slowing down by then, this was fall of 2006. The RE people told me I got out at the height and was lucky. The woman who bought it has turned it into a Santa Faux castle, remodeled and added a story, veranda, etc., it’s way cool, but she apparently doesn’t have to worry about money.
I can’t explain it, I’m not an economic guru (as I’m sure you’ve noticed), I just sensed it from reading bits and pieces in the news (I discovered this blog shortly thereafter and it all then made sense).
“……out watering the lizard……..”
I always thought you were on the female side of the species?
And yeah, this is where my mind is at today.
BWAHAHAHA!!!
heheheheh
“…my house looked a little strange - the walls looked a bit puffy and the roof seemed a bit higher. I got worried and sold it…” Note: Don’t make real estate decisions on mescaline.
A little over 2 years ago when SIL thought she could sell deceased fahter’s early 1930’s house for $85,000. It’s not all that big and just across the street from a rough neighborhood. We’re next door. One of my co-workers use to tell people not to mess with me because “she’s fromm the ‘hood”. Our daughter decidedd she wanted the house and got it for $70,000. Not a bad deal for anyone. Daughter’s payment is about what rent would be. Utilities low. She has room for a big dog. Since the house was sold immediately, his estate was settled less than a year after he died. A house up the street whose owner died about the same time took well over a year to sell.
But then we hadn’t been paying much attention to real estate. We’re pretty happy where we are-next door to daughter-and probably won’t move. Our house was husband’s grandmother’s. It’s a family neighborhood with most houses staying with either family or friends when owner dies.
For me it was some time in 2005. I had never bought because I was moving too often, so I didn’t pay much attention. I also wasn’t living in any of the major bubble areas by then, although I did live in Tucson back in 2001-2004, and looking back I see the clear evidences of the bubble back then (new houses “appreciating” by 50% virtually overnight).
Then in 2005 I read some sort of magazine article at a barber shop (wish I remembered what magazine or author) about I/O loans out in CA and that’s how everyone could afford these houses at half million dollars or more. My thought: “Uh oh, that’s not going to end pretty for those people.”
I also had a wife at the time who spent most of her time watching those stupid flipper shows. It was all I could do for about 18 months to convince her that wouldn’t work here (central ND) and that it was a dumb proposition (trying to buy the house we rented to flip it). Boy am I glad we didn’t have a mortgage to deal with when we got divorced.
“…when was the moment when the possibility of a housing bubble first occurred to you?”
I gotta admit it was not until after we had sold our Sarasota house in mid-2005 and moved here. But we had been buying down ever since the mid-90’s when the feds changed the rule on capital gains when you sell your primary residence. Each purchase since then (four altogether) was for less than we got for the previous house.
The “profit” was roughly split, with half going toward needing less of a mortgage and half going into SWAN (Sleep Well At Night) investments and savings. We reached the final goal with this house- no mortgage at all.
I think the problem is with the concept of debt. Most people (including myself) are not sophisticated enough to handle debt. We need to operate on the assumption that all debt is bad (draw on future income and its not other peoples money).
I suspect the hotshot bankers think the same when it comes to their own personal finances, unless they have drank to much KOLAID!!!
1998 - Dayton OH. Cousin and ex consolidated their bills with a HELOC; they live in Columbus.
Ephipany - Niceville FL, 2001, Hwy 20. Big bank billboard read:
1.9% introductory offer! Consolidate! Vacation! (and some other crap).
I felt like washing my skin with steel wool.
Leigh
My friend was trying to buy a condo in Pasadena, CA back in 2004. He told me that the condos he’s interested but feel like to think about it for couple days and all those condos were sold after he has finally made up his mind to make an offer. So he changed his strategy of buying, he then made an offer on the day that he saw any property he’s interested, but still he couldn’t get it because there’s always someone outbid him. He finally end up buying a condo in around 400k in 2004 that he had outbid the asking price 20k.
At that time I didn’t know it was a bubble, but I was sure all the people are crazy. I will never buy something that I have to pay more than the “asking” price. It’s like I have to “beg” sellers to take my money!!?? That is just ridiculous.
This year, two of my friends they bought a nice new condo in San Bernardino county (Chino and Fontana, CA) that made me want to settle down also, since they all told me the price is much cheaper than 2006 and it’s time to dig in.
I was smart enough doing research online before I spend my cuts/blood hard-earned money. With the analysis people post online and other open data we can find online, I finally realize the price is still a big bubble. Me an my boyfriend make 6 digit an year but can only afford to buy a 1500 sqft, 30 years old condo in Arcadia, CA without renting some rooms out. That tells me something is terribly wrong here. How can a median household in that area only make 79k/yr afford a 700k median house that me and my boyfriend apparently earn double but still can’t afford it?
We’re now waiting patiently for the price come down at least 30% more otherwise we’ll just save the money and move to Texas. California is ridiculously expensive.
Looks like the bust has started to hit the celebrity list. The LA Times reports that Johhny Carson’s side-kick, Ed McMahon has defaulted on his Beverly Hills McMansion. It’s listed at $6.25 million but has been on the market for 2 years. Doesn’t seem possible with his past income that he could hit money trouble. Must have had a “Financial Advisor”. (lol)
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere’s Foreclosure!
Why is it the celebrates (sports and movie) can not handle their own finances?
Did some close friend or family member become their business manager and steal from them?
I only wish that I know some these individuals, I could save them a fortune be asking them to place their asset in short term treasures.
imho
I just love short term treasures! I’ve got several authentic maps for sale, ranging from the Carribbean to Pacific islands.
Actually Ed has a legacy of financial mismanagement. As well as alcohol abuse. Anyone remember when he got onboard with the whole “Mold Litigation” thing? IIRC he wasn’t making his payments THEN either. As it’s been pointed out before, why should anyone that’s 85 “need work”?
Anyone ever read Evelyn Waugh’s “The Loved One”?
If you haven’t, don’t see the 1960’s vintage movie, it was lousy.
OMG! I love that movie! It’s right up there with the Magic Christian. Rod Steiger as Joyboy is fabulous.
The book was much better.
I guess that he can not survive a comfortable life at 85 without working, then I suspect we are all doomed!!!
My boob-boo. it should have read-
“that if can not”
Guess he broke his neck and can’t work…hence no money…hence foreclosure
Someone with his work history should have been able to save a fortune unless they were living outside their means or giving it all away (like John Nichols did, the guy who wrote the “Milagro Beanfield War”).
Too bad. Good movie, Milagro Beanfield War.
You know, I may be stupid, but I would have put any extra income over living expenses (and by the way, I would not have increased my living expenses on autos, houses, jewelry or clothes) and continue my life before the sudden increase in assets/profits.
imho
I read an interview of John Nicols and he gave all his money to his friends and the needy. He seems like a very goodhearted guy. I think he’s not so well off financially, though, but he seemed pretty happy.
You mean he didn’t have insurance or Aflac ins to cover this possibility?
My service to the stars: give me all your money. In ten years, I will give you half back. Worth every penny.
“‘This is a major loss for a $150 million institution,’ he said. ‘This is a credit union that engaged in suspect loans 1,500 miles from the shores of Lake Superior. What does that have to do with serving low to moderate income people?’”
Greed???
Wisconsin banks speculating in Florida real estate? I wonder how many small banks are at risk over stupid bets in areas they knew nothing about.
I bet they were particularly susceptible to some of the scams we’ve heard about: straw buyers, crooked appraisers, and shady mortgage brokers.
“I wonder how many small banks are at risk over stupid bets in areas they knew nothing about”.
I would bet far more than the current 90 troubled banks on the FDIC’s watch list. We really are just getting started.
“In the universe of subprime loans, only about 59 percent of subprime loans were current, as of October 2007, the Fed study found. Almost 87 percent of Alt-A loans were current.”
The article’s figures on delinquent loans and resets do give one pause.
“I wonder how many small banks are at risk over stupid bets in areas they knew nothing about” ??
Small banks looking for high yields…Its very hard for small banks to find high yields in small markets so they seek “participation loans” in other area’s including outside of their home state…
What do credit unions do with their profits? I suppose in theory they should give it back to the credit union members.
Credit Unions that are federally charted are 501(C)(1)’s (non-profit status),btw. They are organized under an act of Congress, that’s why.
Non profits don’t necessarily “dispose” of “profits” as a rule. If a non profit (or “not for profit” as they like to be called now) have revenue in excess of expenditures, it just increaes the fund balance. Same as a private company really. So that money is then available to spend on something later.
My guess is credit unions do the same thing. They either use the money for some operational purposes, or increase their executive’s pay or some such thing.
My point was that the “Federal” Credit Union is an abuse of the nonprofit status laws. I know something about non profits, but mind you, it was a 3 unit required class for me.
I would assume most of us here know the bs of non profits, but thanks for your post.
Roy said. ‘They shouldn’t talk to people about ARMs and adjustable rates and all that. Just tell us the bottom line in dollars and cents.’
I’m sure the lender’s representative did just that. Roy was told “your monthly payment will be $x,xxx” and Roy said “great, where do I sign.”
And when the monthly payment looked too big to swallow, the house’s value was only supposed to go UP UP UP. So no worries about the monthly nut, we’re all going to be millionaires!
wheeee!!!!!!!!11
Well exactly. Whould they be complaining then? True that is a bugger of a payment but certainly do-able on their income especially considering a midwest cost of living.
When I read the prices of the midwest homes, I hesitate to say, packing up and moving. Sheesh. The beauties they have at that low cost.. to a californian at least!
A coworker from Cinncinnati once showed me a pic of her house in OH she was trying to sell. The house was located on an entire block of well maintained 1940s brick bungalows. If you even find one in my area, it’ll cost 250k+.
Her asking price: $130k. And it wasn’t attracting any buyers.
Exactly - that’s why were leaving. For us, being able to fund our retirement and pay off the house in 10 yrs without eating mac and cheese every night means a lot.
I grew up in NE Ohio and yes, the houses are cheap, but there are NO jobs!! I would be there in a second, but one has to make a living to pay for the cheap homes! It’s all relative…
There are a number of very good reasons why prices for homes in NE Ohio are low.
Maybe this is a CLUE for Obama, force black people to stay in school 12 months a year with a vacation only if you can read write and speak English at grade level, and be able to hold a conversation without swearing
Imagine millions of black kids speaking English, it will kill the rap, hop hop market overnight!
———————————————
. A whole lot of us are stuck.’”
Was this really a necessary post?
BayQT~
–
“The mortgage crisis has harmed virtually everyone…”
Not really, only the stupid ones and the greedy ones. One has to be stupid not to keep in mind the adage: If something is too good to be true, it most likely is.
There are rewards for keeping one’s head when most are losing it.
Jas
Therein lies the conumdrum, Jas…the majority of the country was stupid and greedy, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking bailouts. I think the real reason behind bailout fever on Capitol Hill is that Wall Street took such a big hit.
Greedy isn’t the problem
Stupid and dishonest is what I worry about.
–
“Therein lies the conumdrum, Jas…the majority of the country was stupid…”
There is no conundrum, here or in the US Treasury bond market (for which Greenspan famously used and popularized the term). I have reached an unpopular and controversial conclusion: Our propaganda machine has been busy breeding dopes and taking advantage of them.
“Stupid and dishonest is what I worry about.”
Again, the result of the success of the propaganda machine and how dishonest people have thrived. We, as a society, enter the Danger Zone when dishonest people do so well so easily, for everyone to see, and most of them get to keep their take. Standards kept getting lowered.
Jas
I agree, it is the greedy and dishonest ones that I worry about, they use the system to encourage less smart folks,duping them into buying into the snakeoil cures.
Crime now pays. The only downside is playing the game a little too long
And honest people who try to do the right thing are looking and feeling stupid.
“And honest people who try to do the right thing are looking and feeling stupid.”
I, for one, wouldn’t want to trade places with with any of the dishonest pukes.
What goes around comes around, bad karma, etc.
I don’t feel the least bit stupid. I may not be as well off as some people who made out like bandits (either by intent or by unintended good timing), but I’m also not up to my eyeballs in debt.
“……what goes around, comes around…..”
I used to think that……but now, sometimes I wonder….
The problems with rotten mortgages and insolvent banks are too big to fix. I sometimes wonder if the same thing can’t be said about government.
Personally, I am surrounded by FBs, and am so glad I’m not in their shoes. Here in N AZ, we are dropping off a cliff economically, and these people are hocked up to the eyeballs. Now I am getting ready to take advantage of the mess while they are still sinking. Let the harvest begin, I say.
“Like many other families, his was blitzed by advertisements from lenders to refinance. Young and his family had built up debt and decided to consolidate it into a refinanced loan. In 2006, Young signed a new loan with a beginning interest rate of 11.8 percent that could have climbed to nearly 18 percent.”
What is the point of the first sentence? It was Young’s decision to refinance, not the blitz’s.
Yeah, I’m a little disappointed in the Dispatch’s take in the article. These people were gambling with borrowed money. What were the chances this would end well?
The people writing these human interest stories don’t even question this. It is quite easy to keep track of all one’s important mail and phone calls - everything else goes straight into the shredder/trash and everyone else gets hung up on - problem solved. This guy thinks a pile of junk mail on his kitchen counter held some mystical spell over him?
When there is so much mail/spam trash, wouldn’t one think…
gee maybe this is a get rich quick scam?
well, those of us who didn’t buy, saw that easy come easy go angle.
Are we so gullible to advertising that we aren’t responsible for our own actions? It’s not like it’s mind control, it’s just information.
Sorry–I disagree. I believe that for many weak-minded people, advertising _IS_ like mind control! How else can I explain their nonsensical choices?
Guess that is the job of the salesperson. To sell someone something. Then once a few fall into the basket, it is easier to shake a few more outa the tree.
Watch the shiny watch…you are getting more and more relaxed.. you will do my bidding..
’sides, you guys all know how blinking, shiny, blonde, brightly colored things, and sex causes you to um, lose your train of thought? NO? yesssssss.
Heck that is why you guys buy the shiny fast cars. I see few of you in Ford Focuses.
When they write this bull excrement about the people who refinanced and refinanced and are now singing the blues, a question that should always be asked is “WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE MONEY YOU RECEIVED?”
I swear it’s almost like the (the MSM) slant these articles as if these refinance people were scammed and got nothing, when that isn’t the case.
That’s exactly right. If the media reported, ’so Joe FB took that $100,000 and blew it on trips to Hawaii and expensive cars’ there would be much less sympathy for these gambling fools. And saying they paid down credit cards is no better. That’s likely meals out, TVs and trips, etc.
This guy was smarter than I. He was able to support a lifestyle that was beyond his income for 5+ years, first by building credit card debt, then by ‘extracting home equity’, and now, most probably, by building credit card debt again. He will ultimately declare bankruptcy and his debts will go away, yet the good times and possessions he used the money for will still be his. If he is smart, he will ive rent free in the house for 1+ years waiting for the eviction, building a cash position for life as a renter.
True, true…however - is this the fly in the ointment:
If bankrupt guy is a job seeker (Candidate A), will he suffer in respect to Candidate B, equally qualified but with no BKs on his credit report?
No doubt a huge number blew their windfall on materialistic crap. However, a lot of people with maxed out credit cards and HELOCs spent money just to meet the cost of living. Remember, prices are going up, wages down (relative to inflation). I think they are all gambling on getting a raise (after finishing education or getting seniority), windfalls (insurance, inheritance, lawsuit lotteries) or discharging their debt (BK or death) before they have to pay the piper.
I got in a huge amount of debt when I finished college: new student loan pmts, crappy job market (in 1991), no car, and living expenses. The only thing that saved me was when I decided to go back to grad school, which deferred the debts into student loans I have almost paid off now.
Hey, I was blitzed by these ads too. Especially after I moved into the Arizona Slim Ranch. Ya know what I did with those ads? I blitzed ‘em right into my recycle bin, that’s what!
Slim, what you really have to do to enjoy yourself is this:
Credit card offers ALWAYS come with reply pre-paid post. Save up all your other offers (pizzas, carpet cleaning etc etc), and absolutely cram them into the reply pre-paid envelope, so that it is utterly bulging.
Write a short note to the credit card offeror (keep a copy!) saying:
“Thank you for your kind offer, but I am not in the position to take it up at the moment. However, I take the opportunity (given that your offer was unsolicited) to enclose for you some other unsolicited offers that I have recently received, that may be of interest to you or your customers. Yours sincerely, Arizona Slim.”
After two or three times, this absolutely cures your credit card junk mail problem!
‘A lot of us were sold a dream,’ Young said, ‘and now we are living a nightmare.’
I’m sorry, but what “dream” is this that “they” were selling? You were looking for some extra, quick cash and you tapped into your home equity. Where’s the dream part? Did you think you wouldn’t have to pay it back?
This guy had a cheap house with reasonable payments. He and only he screwed that up.
House prices always go up!
anyone watches HGTV. I haven’t seen a house that they show loose money.
example: they show a home that john bought 2 years ago (worst time to buy) for $350,000 and spent $150,000 fixing up and like to sell it for $650,000 dollar now!. RE agent look around the house and then tells the owner your house no worth, worth, worth, worth $970,000 and the owner jumps up and down give them a hug.
it really makes me mad because I know lots of idiots watching the show believe it.
run-
coat of paint= $10,000 in equity
ge faux stainless appliances-$10,000
$30 home depot light fixture-$2000
what could go wrong?
RE: coat of paint= $10,000 in equity
ge faux stainless appliances-$10,000
$30 home depot light fixture-$2000
what could go wrong?
Try telling these people they are full of shite with their preconceived, TV reality show inspired financial figures as an appraiser.
They look at you with wide, glazed, eyes; and mouths agape as they rearch for their cellphone to howl and whine and to their L/O about this big bad idiot, who is making noises about blowing their HELOC right out of the water.
Of course the L/O calms them right down, and says the local number hitter will be right over to make the situation right for them.
run
what makes me laugh so hard about all these TV home projects are the fake lowball figures given out during the show.
new carpets; $ 70. added value: $5,000.
new windows; $200 added value: 9 gazillion dollars . . .
I mean, gimme a BREAK! you cant even afford the LABOR to do these things for what they claim, much less the materials. no way are these figures accurate.
finally realized that the shows fake “low estimate” is a way to sucker-in the viewers to start a project for the benefit of their sponsers. if you notice, who are the advertisers on these show? home depot, lowes, etc … and where does the material shopping take place? yeah, exactly. so they want you to think every project is very affordable & get it going, then its too late to back out and you have to finish up at higher costs later down the line.
when I watch these shows now I disregard all pricing & just look to learn for construction tips. and sometimes interesting designs.
“”Sharon Young, a homeowner on the East Side of St. Paul, and her husband were renters until they bought their first house three years ago. They bought an adjustable-rate mortgage that started with payments of $1,679 a month. In March 2007, the monthly payment was reset to $2,218.”
“The couple, with a combined gross income of $77,000, couldn’t manage the $539 monthly increase. ‘Our mortgage company refused to negotiate,’ she said.”
This is what continues to amaze me: That people can make a higher than median income, but be financially devastated by a $500 dollar rate adjustment…one that they knew was coming!
Considering the real rate of inflation and the probability of job loss and when sh*t happens (i.e. divorces, displacements, and illness), you can only fudge the estimates of the coming mortgage defaults. It will be so much worse than any mathematical estimate we’ve heard so far.
This is what continues to amaze me: That people can make a higher than median income, but be financially devastated by a $500 dollar rate adjustment…one that they knew was coming!
That’s what happens when they have his and hers 30-40K vehicles.
The wierd thing is… on $77K they could still actually make the $2,218 a month payment. I mean, it wouldn’t be very comfortable… and they’d pretty much have to give up everything from new clothes, movies, cable TV, etc… but they could do it.
They could barely manage it, but that wouldn’t be smart. They’d have no extra cash to sock away for emergencies. The cost of heating is projected to go up like a rocket and they wouldn’t be able to afford that plus an increased mortgage payment. And once the loan resets again, they lose it for sure.
The writing is on the wall, so they may as well read it and leave now.
“Refinancing is out of the question. Young and her husband bought the house for $250,000. A recent appraisal put its value at $170,000. Young’s assessment of home ownership: ‘It was a disaster.’”
Thanks, George Bush, for the “ownership society”.
“Under my Administration, more people have become home-owners than at any time in American History.”
>>>>more or less paraphrased from the 2004 or 2005 State of the Union address.
Cheap money is good.
Thanks Alan Greenspan.
Here we have the finale to the “Ownership Society”.
Richard Berntein Merril
in the last market cycle downturn, about 25 percent of financial firms — including brokers, banks and asset managers — “went away,” he said, referring to bankruptcies or mergers and acquisitions. Only 7 percent of financial firms have failed or been acquired so far in this crisis.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080604/usa_economy_creditrecession.html
“Congress and the Bush administration are working on some possible solutions, which could include a possible bailout by taxpayers. He said this would be unfair to those who have done a good job of keeping up with their house payments over the years.”
“‘But if the government lets it crash, it could be a total disaster,’ he said.”
Oh, so enslaving generations of Americans to mountains of debt or just punishing everyone who is prudent and refuses to wear the chains of debt is NOT a disaster?! Ah, but the falling housing market would result in a bunch of clowns having to give up their Hummers and get out of their McCrudshacks, so it’s time to open up the taxpayer’s wallets and continue the War On Savers. Right…
If the government could stop it they would have already done so. It’s funny to me when some guy says ‘people were loaned more than the house is worth,’ then says price declines would be a bad thing. What does he think is going to happen?
I hope you’re right, Ben.
As I’ve said before, they can’t truly “stop” this from playing out, but they can drag out virtually forever (in a Japan-style “lost decade”) as well as produce a whole bunch of other screw-ups along the way (commodities situation, potential hyperinflation, and who knows what else.)
I guess it is just too much to ask for the people in charge to stop pouring fuel on the fire while telling us that doing so will “fix it.”
Let’s wait and see how interested the pols are with this issue on Wednesday, November 5, 2008.
What? Are you accusing candidates of pandering?
What is especially galling is during the Latin American Debt crisis of the ’80s the US Government lectured the governments of Latin America not to artificially prop up asset prices of homes or their stock market. They were told to “let the market take care of imbalances”.
Madison is still in full denial (but secretly scared) mode and is set for a huge crash over the next five years, then a bottom scrape for the next 5-10. OUCH! Madtown is getting madder.
Brought a house in Indy… 140k and put down 20%, at 6.5% (Credit score 800) I was among the proud and few who still qualify.
$700 per month and my net assets could buy the place tomorrow but I prefer to invest in Oil and Gold.
Indy is close to the agricultural Heartland… so this is my insurance to flee if LA where I rent has issues. At the same time I protect myself against inflation by taking on manageable debt that will soon shrink at the tune of 5-10 % a year (real inflation is 15-20% - my mortgage interest).
“The mortgage crisis has harmed virtually everyone…Young bought his home in 1997…signed a fixed-rate mortgage…was blitzed by advertisements from lenders to refinance…built up debt and decided to consolidate it into a refinanced loan…They refinanced again in 2007…‘A lot of us were sold a dream,’”
“About three blocks from Young’s home, James Roy built his fiancee’s dream house…Roy, however, had to pay only $1,000 out of pocket…why not build the best house we could…Roy, who had a poor credit score at the time”
So many people are telling me to have sympathy for people like this…”but for the grace of God go I”, etc. etc.
Blame it all on “being sold a dream”, but if you use that as an excuse, maybe you shouldn’t have the power to make your own finical decisions any more. Either own up to your own greed (”sold a dream”, bah!), or don’t be trusted to make prudent financial decisions in the future. Don’t run off claiming that you were “sold a dream”, and then be expect to be treated as an adult in the future.
Also, for some reason, they chose to interview two people with the last names of “Young” for these stories (Rodney Young, and later Sharon Young), thus subliminally making them appear more “young” and “vulnerable”. There is also a “Goodman” mentioned. It is probably too much work for them to do this on purpose, I’m just noticing that the story writes better mentioning “Young was blitzed with offers,” than it would with “Crabbe was blitzed with offers”. ; )
“‘I’ll take some of the blame for signing loans like that, but these companies are good at confusing people,’ Roy said. ‘They shouldn’t talk to people about ARMs and adjustable rates and all that. Just tell us the bottom line in dollars and cents. But they don’t do that, and now I’m stuck. A whole lot of us are stuck.’”
What a worthless lazy moron. How do these people live from one day to the next?
‘I don’t want to hear the facts, just tell me ‘howmuchamonth’ But they didn’t, and now I’m stuck, because they gave me too much information.’
I just got back from the University of Arizona’s semiannual economic forecast.
Nothing like starting one’s morning in a room full of real estate vermin. And they weren’t too happy to hear the forecast: This recession looks worse than previous ones. The prime culprit is — you guessed it — the housing downturn.
Among the numerous PowerPoint slides shown was one that tracked the asset balances of American households. Backgrounder: On the whole, American households have been deficit spending since 1999. What’s been fueling all of this spending? The usual supects:
1. Mortgage equity withdrawals
2. Sales of stocks
3. Borrowing
Nothing that would surprise us, but what bopped me over the head was how that slide showed the steep decline in household asset values during the 1990s.
The reasons for that decline were not explained, but I suspect it was due to people feeling wealthy because their stock portfolios had increased so much. Well, we know how that turned out. (Remember the first quarter of 2000?)
And that’s the Arizona Slim Report from Tucson.
In March 2007, the monthly payment was reset to $2,218. The couple, with a combined gross income of $77,000, couldn’t manage the $539 monthly increase. ‘Our mortgage company refused to negotiate,’ she said.
The payments were one-third of their gross income; still too much, they’re defaulting. Lenders take note.
‘We rob Peter and Paul doesn’t get paid,’ she said.
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You robbed Peter and you didn’t pay Paul either? What did you do with the money?
‘They shouldn’t talk to people about ARMs and adjustable rates and all that. Just tell us the bottom line in dollars and cents.’
This joker really doesn’t get it! Not caring about the details of the loan is EXACTLY how he got in trouble in the first place!
Talk about not learning from your mistakes…
The funny thing about all of this is that with an ARM, the “bottom line” cannot be established!
What part of “Adjustable Rate Mortgage” don’t these clowns get?
The only way a “bottom line” can be provided is if there is a maximum interest rate cap:
“Yes, Mr & Mrs FB, the maximum that you will ever have to pay is 25% on an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, which on your principal of $450,000 is about $9,375 per month interest only, plus your principal reduction over 30 years of $1,250 per month, for a grand total of $10,625 per month. This is the maximum of course, and your payments could well be less than this over the course of the loan.”
In the absence of an interest rate ca under the facility, it is literally impossible to provide a FB with a “bottom line”.
Howmuchamonth????
Plus, that maximum amount reduces every month, of course, assuming the principal reduction of $1,250 is paid every month.
For instance, after ten years, the principal is reduced by $1,250 x 120 ($150,000), so the maximum interest at that point will be $450,000 - $150,000 = $300,000 x 25% = $75,000, or $6,250 per month, for a maximum monthly nut of $6,250 + $1,250, or $7,500.
For that month only, in ten years’ time.
The spreadsheet to explain just the maximum you may have to pay over the course of a 30 year ARM, with a “capped” interest rate, would be huge…..
The Columbus Dispatch reports from Ohio. “The mortgage crisis has harmed virtually everyone, leaving a wake of foreclosures and falling property values that will ripple through neighborhoods for years to come. No longer is the problem confined to poor neighborhoods.”
Interestingly, the article didn’t mention anyone who was actually harmed. Sympathizing with someone who was part of the problem is like feeling sorry for someone who just shot his parents because he’s an orphan.
Here’s who was harmed: People who have to pay more property taxes because of shortfalls and inflated valuations, neighbors who have to live next to abandoned houses and infested swimming pools, savers who can’t get more than 2% interest income, and are having their savings devoured by inflation.
I don’t know how the Columbus Dispatch can say it’s “harmed everyone” and then present a sympathy piece about the perpetrator and not the victim
“when was the moment when the possibility of a housing bubble first occurred to you?”
My friend was trying to buy a condo in Pasadena, CA back in 2004. He told me that the condos he’s interested but feel like to think about it for couple days and all those condos were sold after he has finally made up his mind to make an offer. So he changed his strategy of buying, he then made an offer on the day that he saw any property he’s interested, but still he couldn’t get it because there’s always someone outbid him. He finally end up buying a condo in around 400k in 2004 that he had outbid the asking price 20k.
At that time I didn’t know it was a bubble, but I was sure all the people are crazy. I will never buy something that I have to pay more than the “asking” price. It’s like I have to “beg” sellers to take my money!!?? That is just ridiculous.
This year, two of my friends they bought a nice new condo in San Bernardino county (Chino and Fontana, CA) that made me want to settle down also, since they all told me the price is much cheaper than 2006 and it’s time to dig in.
I was smart enough doing research online before I spend my cuts/blood hard-earned money. With the analysis people post online and other open data we can find online, I finally realize the price is still a big bubble. Me an my boyfriend make 6 digit an year but can only afford to buy a 1500 sqft, 30 years old condo in Arcadia, CA without renting some rooms out. That tells me something is terribly wrong here. How can a median household in that area only make 79k/yr afford a 700k median house that me and my boyfriend apparently earn double but still can’t afford it?
We’re now waiting patiently for the price come down at least 30% more otherwise we’ll just save the money and move to Texas. California is ridiculously expensive.