June 5, 2008

The Speed Of The Collapse Has Been Astonishing

Some housing bubble news from Wall Street and Washington. CNN Money, “More than one million homes are now in foreclosure, the highest rate ever recorded, according to a trade group which warned Thursday that number will continue to climb. The Mortgage Bankers Association’s first quarter report showed that a record 2.5% of all loans being serviced by its members are now in foreclosure, which works out to about 1.1 million homes.”

“There are 431,000 prime loans in foreclosure, a seasonally adjusted rate of 1.2% that is more than double the 0.5% rate a year ago. The report showed about 1.2 million prime mortgages are now a month or more past due.”

“According to Jay Brinkman, MBA’s VP for research and economics, the prime loan segment was hurt by so-called Alt-A loans, which didn’t require income verification for buyers with good credit.”

“California, Florida, Arizona and Nevada have been hit by a hangover after a home building boom in the middle of the decade, which was fueled by rising home prices and investors snatching up real estate using risky mortgages. Those four states have nearly 400,000 homes in foreclosure, or a third of the nationwide total. Roughly 3.6% of all of the loans in these states are now in foreclosure.”

“‘Clearly things in California and Florida are going to get worse before they get better,’ said Brinkman.”

From Reuters. “U.S. home builders, struggling under sinking demand and a credit crisis, now face a fresh obstacle: competition from a flood of homes in foreclosure.”

“‘In some regions, the supply coming to the market from home builders is now smaller than the supply coming from foreclosures,’ Deutsche Bank senior economist Torsten Slok said.”

The Kane County Chronicle from Illinois. “Rich Guerard prefers not to buck the market. That’s why he and his business partners have decided to hold off on building the Settlements of LaFox.”

“For years, Guerard and his partners have waited to sell the first of the 1,275 homes they are planning to build in their large development between Geneva and Elburn. If all had gone according to plan, the first homes could have been built this summer. But a slumping housing market has persuaded the developers to wait a little longer, Guerard said.”

“‘We believe the market is reaching the bottom,’ he said. ‘But it needs to improve from where it is before we go forward with this.’”

“Builders are under a tremendous amount of strain, said Ray Budde, executive VP of the Homebuilders Association of the Greater Fox Valley. In North Aurora, for instance, several lots are set to be auctioned later this month in the Tanner Trails subdivision as part of Neumann Homes’ bankruptcy plans.”

“And in Sugar Grove, Kimball Hill Homes is selling all undeveloped lots in the subdivision as that company seeks to reposition itself after seeking bankruptcy protection earlier this year.”

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation. “New South Wales Opposition Leader Barry O’Farrell has used his Budget reply speech to announce a Coalition state government would co-invest in a house or unit for some first-home buyers.”

“Mr O’Farrell says the Coalition would fund up to 40 per cent of a property priced under $400,000 for people with a $90,000 maximum household income. ‘A shared equity scheme could provide access for as many as 4,000 singles, couples and families to buy their own home,’ he said.”

“BankWest found housing prices had risen by two-thirds across Australia since 2002. The average income had increased by less than half that amount over the same time.”

The Lancaster Guardian from the UK. “According to government statistics, 100 mortgage repossession orders were made at Lancaster County Court between January and March - a massive 163 per cent rise from the same period in 2007.”

“Mike Fisher, partner at Fisher Wrathall estate agents, said: ‘I think there’s been quite a lot of hypocrisy within the lending organisations over the last few years. “They have constantly wrung their hands about the affordability issue for younger people but their answer has been to come up with more and more innovative products which have been more and more expensive. That has fuelled house prices to a less affordable level, which has left the local housebuyer behind.’”

“Mr Fisher said many of the properties repossessed could be from the buy-to-let market. ‘If people are coerced into buying over-priced flats to let and then fail to carry out their financial obligations, it leads to problems,’ he said. ‘This is purely down to ill-judged excursions into the property market.’”

The Independent. “Many of Britain’s biggest housebuilders could be forced into deeply discounted emergency rights issues before the end of the year. More than £300m was wiped off the value of the country’s six largest housebuilders yesterday, with investors panicked into a sell-off by a doom-laden report on the sector from investors at UBS.”

“‘The speed of the collapse in April and May has been astonishing,’ said Mark Stockdale, UBS’s lead housing analyst. ‘This is as bad as 1991 - without a doubt. And the big difference is that I have never seen a housing market fall as fast as in the last eight weeks.’”

The Scotsman. “Housebuilders yesterday issued a call for a ‘drastic’ 0.5 per cent cut in interest rates from the Bank of England today as new analysis from investment bank experts revealed ‘extreme weakness’ in the housing market.”

“Home Builders’ Federation director of economic affairs John Stewart said: ‘We just cannot rely on lessons learnt and solutions based on past downturns as this is a completely new situation in which we find ourselves.’”

From Business Week. “Robert Toll and other builders suffering through the downturn think that homeowners need extra incentives to get off the sidelines.”

“Their pitch goes like this: If the government simply bails out people whose home values have dropped below their mortgage amount, or spends hundreds of billions of dollars on Federal Housing Administration loans, prices will continue to drop, and those government-subsidized loans also will end up under water. Better to urge potential home buyers off the sidelines and back into the market, so prices can stabilize.”

“‘I believe that this is the way to stabilize the economy,” Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers, said in an interview on June 4. ‘Before trying to straighten out the credit market, you need to straighten out the basis of the problems in the credit market. You want to look at the asset that backs up that credit.’”

“The problem for homebuilders is that few people are buying much of anything today, and builders say they can’t cut prices much more than they already have. ‘I think homebuilders have been lowering prices to the point where they are just trying to recapture some of the land costs,’ Toll said.”

“Of course, the government already subsidizes home ownership in numerous ways, to the chagrin of economists like Laurence Kotlikoff at Boston University. He calls the subsidies ‘distortionary.’”

“The government also encourages home buying through oufits like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, as well as the FHA, which attempt to expand the market for housing credit. Government regulators pressure banks to make affordable loans available to home buyers.”

“But is it up to U.S. taxpayers to stop the slide? Tomasz Piskorski, an assistant professor at Columbia Business School, calls the tax-credit proposal ‘an implicit subsidy to homebuilders’ that would keep home prices artificially high when they probably ought to be falling.”

“If builders and sellers would drop their prices, houses would start to move again, he said. A tax credit might briefly prop up the market but ultimately may just prolong the agony until real demand and supply find equilibrium.”

“‘Let home prices fall to a level where they become really affordable,’ he said. ‘Once the prices are sufficiently low, there will be no problem selling homes, there will be no problem getting decent mortgages. Maybe it’s better that home prices fall faster.’”

“When Wachovia CEO Ken Thompson sealed a $24 billion deal to buy Golden West Financial in May, 2006, he bragged that he had bagged “a crown jewel” of the mortgage business. Two years later it’s painfully clear that Thompson bought the nation’s second-largest S&L at the peak of the housing bubble, a misstep that led to his ouster on June 2.”

“In most mergers, it’s the acquirers that exert their will. But right after Wachovia bought Golden West, executives from the S&L took control of all mortgage lending. And according to former brokers, they began pushing Wachovia’s sales force to steer applicants into its signature ‘Pick-A-Payment’ loans.”

“Analysts note that Golden West focused too much on appraisals and too little on verifying the income and assets of applicants. While this tactic helped ensure that Golden West could recover the full value of homes that went into foreclosure during up cycles, it didn’t anticipate that borrowers would simply walk away if a plunge in home prices left them underwater.”

“Analysts figure Wachovia could end up incurring losses of as much as $11 billion on Golden’s West $122 billion mortgage portfolio. ‘You’d be hard-pressed to find anything good out of this acquisition,’ says Terry Maltese, president of Sandler O’Neill Asset Management.”

From Bloomberg. ” MBIA Inc. and Ambac Financial Group Inc. may give up attempts to retain the Aaa credit ratings of their bond insurance units after Moody’s Investors Service put them under review for a second time this year.”

“The world’s largest bond insurers, which have raised $4.1 billion combined in the past six months, said they won’t seek more capital after Moody’s yesterday said the most likely result of its examination would be a downgrade of the companies’ top insurance financial strength rankings.”

“‘The ability of MBIA and Ambac to continue as viable ongoing companies is highly in doubt,’ according to a note from analysts at debt research firm CreditSights Inc. in New York. ‘How can a triple A be justified for a company that cannot sell its product, is facing mounting losses and has no access to the capital markets?’”

“Financial markets are in disarray. The global economy is throwing a tantrum that could spell recession for some nations. Central banks are publicly pumping billions of dollars into the money markets to keep the banking system afloat, and privately doing God knows what to avert the next Bear Stearns Cos. or Northern Rock Plc.”

“The importance of the finance sector to the global economy has swollen along with the bonuses it awards itself. Standards of behavior, however, have failed to mature at anything like the same pace. And, so far, nobody in banking has apologized for the chaos caused by lax lending standards and monumental hubris.”

“‘One of the innumerable problems with Wall Street and the City is that they never do seem to learn from their mistakes,’ says Tim Price, director of investments at PFP Wealth Management in London.”

“‘Finance is supposed to be a service industry, an aid to the business of genuine wealth creation,’ says Sean Corrigan, who oversees more than $8 billion in Lausanne, Switzerland. ‘Once we accord banks the sort of overblown importance they have enjoyed this past quarter of a century, we become hostage to the megalomania of their executives and head traders.’”

“Richmond Federal Reserve Bank President Jeffrey Lacker said the lending to securities firms that the central bank introduced in March may lay the seeds of further financial crises.”

“‘The danger is that the effect of the recent credit extension on the incentives of financial-market participants might induce greater risk taking,’ Lacker said in a speech to the European Economics and Financial Centre in London. That ‘in turn could give rise to more frequent crises,’ he said.”

“Lacker, heads a district that is home to two of the four biggest U.S. banks. A former head of research at the Richmond Fed, he alone dissented in interest-rate votes at the Fed in late 2006, wanting to continue raising them to stem inflation.”

“‘Establishing a new set of boundaries for central-bank lending is a high priority,’ Lacker said in the interview. ‘You would expect that’ the limits ‘aren’t going to be credible unless we let somebody fail in a costly way that is beyond that scope,’ he said.”

“Lacker in his remarks distinguished between ‘fundamental’ runs on financial institutions where creditors have good economic reasons to question their investments, and ‘non- fundamental’ runs typified by panics.”

“U.S. household wealth fell in the first quarter by the most in more than five years and borrowing slowed as home values and stock prices plunged and lenders restricted credit, Federal Reserve figures showed.”

“Net worth for households decreased by $1.7 trillion from the previous three months, the second straight decline and the biggest since the third quarter of 2002, according to the Fed’s quarterly Flow of Funds report today. Real estate-related assets dropped by $328.9 billion, the most since records began in 1952.”

“‘Households continue to face significant headwinds, including falling house prices, a softer job market, tighter credit, and higher energy prices,’ Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said in a speech this week. ‘Until the housing market, and particularly house prices, shows clearer signs of stabilization, growth risks will remain to the downside.’”

The Associated Press. “The equity Americans have in their most important asset - their homes - has dropped to its lowest level since the end of World War II.”

“Homeowners’ portion of equity slipped to 46.2 percent in the first quarter from a revised 47.5 percent in the previous quarter. That was the fifth quarter in a row below the 50 percent mark, the Federal Reserve said Thursday.”

“The total dollar value of equity also fell for the fourth straight quarter to $9.12 trillion from $9.52 trillion in the fourth quarter, while Americans’ total mortgage debt rose to $10.6 trillion from $10.53 trillion.”

“A homeowner’s equity is the market value of a property minus the mortgage debt. And homeowners’ percentage of equity has declined steadily even as home values surged during the housing boom due to a jump in cash-out refinancing, home equity loans and an increase in 100 percent financing.”

“At the end of March, nearly 8.5 million homeowners had negative or no equity in their homes, representing more than 16 percent of all homeowners with a mortgage, according to Moody’s Economy.com Chief Economist Mark Zandi.”

“By June 2009, he estimates that will increase to 12.2 million, or almost one out of every four homeowners with a mortgage.”

“But to put that number in perspective, one out of every three homeowners own their properties free and clear, with no mortgage at all.”

“Still, Zandi said, ‘For most, their home is their key asset. If they have no equity in their home, likely their net worth is negative too. Their entire balance sheet will be underwater.’”

“Prices nationwide are at levels not seen since the third quarter of 2004.”

“Homeowners with no or negative equity are more likely to fall behind on their mortgage payments or, in frustration, mail the keys to the lender and walk away from their mortgages, a phenomenon more lenders are seeing. This will only increase foreclosures, which have been surging the last two years, and further exacerbate the housing downturn.”




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158 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-05 12:01:48

‘At the end of March, nearly 8.5 million homeowners had negative or no equity in their homes, representing more than 16 percent of all homeowners with a mortgage, according to Moody’s Economy.com Chief Economist Mark Zandi. By June 2009, he estimates that will increase to 12.2 million, or almost one out of every four homeowners with a mortgage.’

That’s a lot of FBs! Who’s dreaming now?

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-05 12:04:57

The entire calamity covered by this selection of articles feels like a dream to me, it’s just so unreal.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-05 12:19:51

It is pretty breathtaking.

Comment by WT Economist
2008-06-05 12:25:41

Already. And how about a linear extrapolation on this figure: “Homeowners’ portion of equity slipped to 46.2 percent in the first quarter from a revised 47.5 percent in the previous quarter. That was the fifth quarter in a row below the 50 percent mark, the Federal Reserve said Thursday.”

That’s 1.3 percentage points in one quarter! At that pace we’ll be down by one-third in 1Q 2010 (the one-third who own their homes free and clear, presumably).

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Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-06-05 16:22:32

“That’s 1.3 percentage points in one quarter! At that pace we’ll be down by one-third in 1Q 2010 (the one-third who own their homes free and clear, presumably).”

And now a little tidbit for the smug to sit on - The BIG moves in this type of decline come at the END of the move.

A year ago when I told people this would all lead to a classic depression, I was relegated to economic crackpot status.
Now, I’m just a lucky guessing crackpot and we are going into a depression anyway.

 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-06-05 13:27:05

a href=”http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/080605/060508_fundflows.html?.v=10″>Household net worth drops by $1.7 trillion…

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Comment by sm_landlord
2008-06-05 13:28:24
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-05 12:40:50

Unreal is spot on. The Great Deleveraging has had a surreal nightmarish quality ever since it went into high gear last August, and that is coming from someone who knew it was on the way. I wonder how it seems to someone who thought real estate only went up?

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 13:08:33

They’re not seeing it. I think the day of reckoning will be when Wall St. starts to properly (de)value its toxic waste.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 14:29:29

In fact, CNBC “Fast Money” is on right now saying that the market is going to rebound in the second half of 2008 (which starts only 25 days from now), and that we will “narrowly” avoid a recession.

What a bunch of maroons…

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Comment by annata
2008-06-05 14:50:17

Don’t worry; the market is only “taking a breather.”

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Comment by aNYCdj
2008-06-05 16:19:58

Professor:

You know what scaring me? Its literally like my phone has been shut off since Last August there are days when we don’t even get a wrong number. Let alone a job/wedding inquiry.

And it seems like companies have told their HR dept NEVER return a e-mail receipt too… last year i used to get at least 20% of the receipts returned, get a name, make a contact, make a call, mail a resume.

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Comment by Leighsong
2008-06-05 14:20:44

More like a nightmare.

I predicted a fast crash awhiiiiiiiiile back, (as did others here) but secretly, hoping to be wrong.

Sigh,
Leigh

 
Comment by End of Empire
2008-06-05 15:23:54

“The entire calamity covered by this selection of articles feels like a dream to me, it’s just so unreal.”

Too bad that unless you live in Florida, Nevada or California these articles are a dream. Wow, the 1% that prices in Honolulu real estate market has dropped after doubling is really doing something for me.

Wake me up when prices actually drop.

Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-06-05 15:51:34

the 1% that prices in Honolulu real estate market has dropped after doubling is really doing something for me.

Be careful. The big island is WAY out there by itself and relies highly on the airlines bringing tourist daily. Operating costs will put a huge dent in that industry!

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Comment by Seattle Renter
2008-06-05 12:08:58

What’s worse, I keep encountering asstards in person and in the media that act like they saw this coming all along(usually followed by a pronouncement that this is the best time to buy). I’m pretty sure anyone who really did see this coming years in advance was posting on this blog.

I’m am proud to count myself among them. The rest can bugger off.

Comment by exeter
2008-06-05 12:27:29

“What’s worse, I keep encountering asstards in person and in the media that act like they saw this coming all along”

And that is what twist my balls to the nth degree. These jackasses who have a national or media podium who now act as though it were all self-evident should have been screaming as early as 2003 like the rest of us lunatics but nooooooo…. they couldn’t do something as responsible and ethical as that.

Comment by Seattle Renter
2008-06-05 12:31:17

Exeter…..DOUG exeter?

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Comment by exeter
2008-06-05 14:23:35

Yes.

 
 
Comment by santacruzsux
2008-06-05 13:08:42

Well, if everyone was as prudent and observant as the folks here on the HBB, how they heck could these slimeballs make any money? Even scum needs to make a living! It’s tough pulling scams on shrewd cynical types doncha know.

And now comes the fun. Now they’re gonna fleece ‘em all on the way down as well. BOHICA!

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:18:27

And we get to scream out:

AWESUMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE … this is like getting birthday presents daily for a few years to come. :-D

 
 
Comment by Moman
2008-06-05 14:09:30

Among my friends that’s exactly how it is……they discounted what I said back in 2003-2005 and now are telling me what a great time it is to buy since no one could have forseen the bubble.

Some of the more asinine comments I have heard it how the US will soon be Europe with perpetually high housing prices.

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Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-06-05 14:36:12

But…but…but…

I thought subprime was contained!

Comment by gascap
2008-06-05 14:44:22

Anyone ever listen to NPR radio? I don’t but was flipping through stations and heard someone being interviewed saying there was trouble brewing because people have switched from Heloc’s to credit cards to overspend, he went on to explain the housing bubble and for a minute I thought he was “one of us”. Then the hostess asked if he thought it was a good time to buy a house, to which he replied “Yes, it’s a FABULOUS time to buy a house”. Then not even a minute later he added “most people expect housing prices to keep dropping”. What is it about the majority of people who seem to have no fear about buying a depreciating asset??

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Comment by gascap
2008-06-05 14:48:02

Don’t usually reply to myself, but I hesitate to even spend 20 bucks for a silver eagle if I think it might drop to 19, yet most Americans don’t seem to even hesitate to buy a $500,000 house if it was $600,000 last year.

 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-06-05 15:59:07

yet most Americans don’t seem to even hesitate

I disagree.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-05 12:28:24

Don’t worry — real estate always goes up, in the long run. Thus the wealth effect will soon come back and bring spendable home equity gains their way.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-05 12:36:24

“Don’t worry - real estate always goes up, in the long run.”

I’m sure the builders and NAR are singing the following song:

I used to hurry a lot, I used to worry a lot
I used to stay out till the break of day
Oh, that didn’t get it,
It was high time I quit it
I just couldn’t carry on that way
Oh, I did some damage, I know it’s true
Didn’t know I was so lonely , till I found you
You can go the distance
We’ll find out in the long run
(in the long run)
We can handle some resistance
If our love is a strong one (is a strong one)
People talkin’ about is
they got nothin’ else to do
When it all comes down we will
still come through
In the long run
Ooh, I want to tell you, it’s a long run
You know I don’t understand why you don’t
treat yourself better
do the crazy things that you do
‘Cause all the debutantes in Houston, baby,
couldn’t hold a candle to you
Did you do it for love?
Did you do it for money?
Did you do it for spite?
Did you think you had to, honey?
Who is gonna make it?
We’ll find out in the long run
(in the long run)
I know we can take it
if our love is a strong one
(is a strong one)
Well, we’re scared, but we ain’t shakin’
Kinda bent, but we ain’t breakin’
in the long run
Ooh, I want to tell you, it’s a long run
in the long run
in the long run

 
 
Comment by NotInMontana
2008-06-05 12:34:50

Seems to me that if 1 in 3 is free and clear, then most the rest of the ones who are not negative have damn little equity. Where did it go? LOL

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:00:22

You know perfectly where it went. It was liberated. LOL

 
 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-06-05 12:43:09

All I can say is “wow”. I SO knew I wasn’t crazy back in 2003. The whole thing just smelled so bad. All I could do was shake my head and raise an eyebrow when a co-worker started bragging about how much their home was now *worth*. The big question for me was “why do they not see what is going on?” The answer was that they didn’t want to see.

BayQT~

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 12:49:42

I called my friend the other day to ask him how the $500K he “made” on “his house” was doing.

I’m cruel that way. :-D

He changed the subject.

Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 13:12:40

I know a few who deserve that kind of treatment, but I’ve been pretty quiet.

These are all households making at least $250,000 (some way more than that), and they’re beginning to acknowledge (capitulate?) without even having me prompt them.

Examples:

“You’re smart to be renting.”

“We bought [in '04] for $850,000 and nothing is selling now in our neighborhood, not even one at $650,000.”

“When should we refinance?”

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:21:41

I love the Bay Area (my sister and friends live there) but I get palpitations every time I talk to their friends out there.

Even the worst excesses of NYC do not compare to the sheer delusion out there, say in Marin or Shallow-Alto.

I get strict warnings from my sister every time I go out there not to stir up the hornet’s nest. :-D

 
Comment by jbunniii
2008-06-05 13:52:16

My co-worker here in Silicon Valley recently sold his house for $670k and yesterday submitted a $880k bid for a replacement crapbox. Nothing like taking on $210k of additional debt heading into a recession! The urine-drinking remains extremely widespread here.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:56:13

Just wait until that $890K in equity becomes something like $500K. It’s not even that far away. :-)

 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-06-05 14:15:06

Go ahead, Pussycat, stir it up. Why not? Didn’t we have to endure the crapola that we had to listen to during the run up? ;-)

BayQT~

 
Comment by Halifax
2008-06-05 15:25:10

When asked about falling RE prices, I’ve made the following analogy: The plane has hit the building and your supervisor is telling you to stay at your desk (true horror story told to me by a financial service person who was there).

 
Comment by crisrose
2008-06-05 15:31:23

I’ve always thought that those who follow orders (particularly from dumb$hits), deserve what they get.

 
 
Comment by Moman
2008-06-05 14:11:28

All of my friends are underwater. My real good buddy for whom it’s “always a great time to buy” has to be hurting although he would never admit it.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 14:32:09

Don’t just sit there yammerin’. Do something about it.

Drop by with a super-fancy bottle of wine in your Ferrari, and be sure to ask, “Hey! Is this a good time to buy or what?” :-D

 
Comment by ric
2008-06-05 15:20:39

Just be sure it’s a rented Ferrari.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 15:24:24

Like DUH!!! What are you? Twelve?

But nobody asks whether you own the Ferrari, and in case they notice later, you can alway say you got bored of it.

Aaah, ennui, such a wondrous and underappreciated emotion. :-D

 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-06-05 13:00:33

Yep, same here. Everyone around me (10-15 years younger than me) was buying a condo, painting walls, clubbing it up…meanwhile I was renting. I felt like such a loser!

Now I realize they were swimming naked.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:12:02

So they wasted their time painting crap, doing walls, and are now taking a loss on a McCrapBox in the sky?

Amazing. Stupendous. Unbelievable.

It makes renting and having a good time even more magical.

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Comment by Moman
2008-06-05 14:13:01

I know a lot of people who didn’t contribute to a retirement plan so they could spend their excess money at Home Depot replacing perfectly good appliances. Unfortunately, for many their house is their retirement plan.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 14:21:54

How can a depreciating liability be an asset? Are these people demented?

You don’t need to be a fancy economist or an accountant to figure this out.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 14:04:38

Birthday Suit Economics?

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Comment by wmbz
2008-06-05 12:59:42

Wonder how high the numbers will go when people playing the pay with dueling/multiple credit cards get shut off? The credit card crunch is up next, with out a doubt. I think that is one of the next big shoes to drop.

Comment by sfbayqt
2008-06-05 14:19:06

This Christmas season is going to be a beyotch! I’m sure the merchants are bracing themselves. And if they aren’t, they should be. It will NOT be cute. It will be very, very f-ugly.

BayQT~

 
Comment by ACH
2008-06-05 16:33:16

FYI, credit card debt is rising faster than at anytime in history. Americans hold a LOT of debt.

From CNN Money “Americans hold $850 billion in credit card debt, and the average balance per card-holding household is $8,568, according to the Consumer Federation of America.” Note: Not in my household.
URL: http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/23/pf/credit_debt/index.htm

People appear to be tapping out their sources of debt to just keep it going a little longer. From some of the articles I have been reading - and I suggest the David Goodman interviews by Tom Keene of Bloomberg Financial - people are desperate to sell stuff like SUV’s or art or other expensive items to raise cash. Until these items - some of which carry high debt loads - sell, people are using credit cards to carry them through. Unfortunately, a lot of this junk is just as upside down in value-to-debt as their houses are.

Ok, so Wall Street is a fantasy land. They didn’t see this coming, and they think it is almost over.

It isn’t. It just too big.

Roidy

 
 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-06-05 12:04:37

The Scotsman. “Housebuilders yesterday issued a call for a ‘drastic’ 0.5 per cent cut in interest rates from the Bank of England today as new analysis from investment bank experts revealed ‘extreme weakness’ in the housing market.”

Hmmm - dollar might be heading up soon. Will have to check out UUP

Comment by SFC
2008-06-05 13:10:35

Oh no, if rich Europeans are not rich anymore, who will buy our overpriced homes? Who is left?

 
 
Comment by Seattle Renter
2008-06-05 12:05:40

And the vultures descend.

On my local progressive radio station, I heard a commercial for some system that “teaches” you to buy forclosures and flip them to “build wealth.”

Will we never learn?

Comment by say what
2008-06-05 12:32:25

Perhaps not as progressive as you thought….

 
Comment by NotInMontana
2008-06-05 12:38:29

Talk radio on both sides is awash with those ads, plus gold, plus mortgage refi..plus the gawdawful PSA’s from the Ad Council et al.

I heard one today that said, the real estate market is terrible! Home values are down! So, why not fix up your place to to sell? We can help! It was for DirectBuy I think.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-05 14:07:14

That’s why I stopped listening to ad-supported radio. It’s NPR on the bedroom radio (but in small doses — they talk too much) and community radio in the living room.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-06-05 15:18:36

And Sirius for me.

 
Comment by End of Empire
2008-06-05 15:29:51

I’ve recently discovered podcasts. Download them and go for a run or a bike ride … way better than listening to music.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-05 16:20:23

I like those too. Also like to mix it up with Tucson Jazz Radio, WBGO Newark, and Ambient Popsicle from Groovera.

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 12:09:53

” MBIA Inc. and Ambac Financial Group Inc. may give up attempts to retain the Aaa credit ratings of their bond insurance units after Moody’s Investors Service put them under review for a second time this year.”

You do realize if they lose their AAA rating, they’ll be called MBI & MBC from now on…

Comment by az_lender
2008-06-05 13:18:13

Ha ha! Am in Internet cafe in NYC, no time to comment, but your joke deserves notice

Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 14:06:36

H h! m in Internet cafe in NYC, no time to comment, but your joke deserves notice

Sorry, had to downgrade your message in keeping with the theme…

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 14:24:35

LOL

Stop! My stomach hurts.

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Comment by End of Empire
2008-06-05 15:35:37

That’s your liver.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 15:45:56

No, you’re confusing me with NYCityBoy. :-)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-06-05 12:10:45


“The Speed Of The Collapse Has Been Astonishing”

Some of us on HBB would have been astonished had the collapse not been this sudden. It was necessary to keep Fedsters from being able to do much to stop the price decline that was both necessary and beneficial. Interventionists don’t always know in advance when the problem is too big to do much about.

Jas

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-05 12:27:20

Most manias top out with a parabolic, self-reinforcing move up. And as Jim Rogers pointed out long ago, all non-fundamental, parabolic moves up end with a similar move down. All this news serves to prove this was an asset bubble, not a subprime ‘crisis’ or anything like that. And look at how widespread it was. True history being made here.

Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 13:17:44

“… non-fundamental, parabolic moves up end with a similar move down…”

*****

And this explains why so many “bottom callers” are calling “Bottom!” - or were until very recently.

They’ve actually been fooled, for perhaps price changes area nearing an end to the parabolic move DOWN in many areas.

The move down has been so quick in some areas that the small bit of remaining “positives” about housing are still fresh in many memories. And this may even bring about a bounce in some areas.

However, it’s not difficult to think they’re catching knives and will be bloodied for at least several more years to come.

Comment by jbunniii
2008-06-05 13:56:41

Let them call bottoms all they like. They repeat “black is white” until they’re blue in the face, but it won’t make it true. And let them catch knives, too - it’s easier to track the rate of price declines if some transactions occur.

None of this changes the fact that our side is going to win!

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-05 14:08:46

What do we win? Joshua tree seeds? A 20lb. trout farm?

 
Comment by jbunniii
2008-06-05 14:17:01

I for one intend to force would-be sellers to write essays detailing why I should choose to buy their house. I’m guessing that by two years from now this should be an easy concession to extract from all but the most stubborn/delusional.

Within 3-4 years they will probably agree to drink a cup of the buyer’s urine as a condition of closing the sale.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 14:45:11

I’m totally looking forward to the latter.

I might even walk away from the deal after they’ve drunk it all, or ask for a weekly drinking.

It’s all about the deal, innit? ;-)

 
 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 13:17:54

“All this news serves to prove this was an asset bubble, not a subprime ‘crisis’ or anything like that.”

Why is the MSM not reporting this? They can’t be that whipped by the NAR, Fed or Washington, can they? Even that freak Cramer on CNBC is totally blithe about any fall-out from Bear Stearns.

I smells me a conspiraah-see…where’s me tinfoil hat?

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-06-05 12:28:08

When I saw the title I was ready to scoff — the speed of the collapse has been glacial in the U.S., especially in NYC.

Then I read it was about Britain. The housing market does seem to move faster there, doesn’t it? I wonder why.

 
Comment by reuven
2008-06-05 13:17:04

I remember telling someone in 2005 Florida:

“Someday, soon, they’ll build a new development and not be able to sell the homes. The day that happens, things will collapse rapidly.”

I actually thought it would have been sooner, faster.

BTW: That day happened!

 
 
Comment by yogurt
2008-06-05 12:12:54

New South Wales Opposition Leader Barry O’Farrell has used his Budget reply speech to announce a Coalition state government would co-invest in a house or unit for some first-home buyers.”

“Mr O’Farrell says the Coalition would fund up to 40 per cent of a property priced under $400,000 for people with a $90,000 maximum household income.

FYI the Coalition in Oz are the “right wingers”, as opposed to the “socialist” Labour Party.

So much for small government and free enterprise.

Comment by Joshua Tree
2008-06-05 19:19:00

Yogurt, spot on, mate!

However:

(1) The Labor Party (note: not “Labour”) is not an “inverted comma” Socialist party - it is fundamentally Socialist from first principles;

(2) The opposition proposal is not free funding, but more of the tried-and-failed “home share” schemes which have plagued this country for the last 20 years or so - all it is is a cheap mortgage, with the mortgagor (n this case the Government housing authority) actually having a 40% share on title.

The only advantage I have seen with the “home share” type scheme is that it seems to defeat creditors in bankruptcy, becoming just too hard to enforce a sequestration against the part home owner, when a Government instrumentality is involved.

Australia’s property market is going to go down the gurgler very, very soon. Just last night, on the six o’clock news, there was a report that property in my area (south-east Queensland) increased in value by 20% or more YOY.

Not going to be pretty at all - local affordability has gone from ~10x median gross income, to ~12x median gross. In one year. Worse still, my wife has been nagging me constantly during the last year to buy another investment property! I need a 10Kg trout to slap her with!

Not pretty at all……

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-06-05 12:14:25

“Net worth for households decreased by $1.7 trillion from the previous three months …”

$1.7 trillion went “poof”.

Score one point for the deflationistas.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-06-05 13:08:30

Call us when I can once again buy milk at Sam’s Club for $2 a gallon, or 36 eggs for $2. Too bad I’m not in the market for a house.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 13:38:09

House prices don’t mean much in the scheme of things now, and as you have to live somewhere,(what separates this bubble from tulips and other wacky bubbles) rents are a much more accurate barometer of true value.

My sister’s house in San Diego was worth $650k at the peak and she didn’t sell and instead rented it out for $1700 a month.

If you bought the house for $650k with 10% down on a 30 year fixed, you’d be looking at around $4500 a month in payments…

Conclusion: My sister’s house is worth around $200k, currently.

Comment by combotechie
2008-06-05 13:45:34

“House prices don’t mean much in the scheme of things now … ”

I’m sure the bankers will be much relieved to hear that.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 13:56:45

Sobering, but totally in line with what I’ve seen. My mother bought her house in ‘02 for $240K and it was over $600K on Zillow at the peak.

Unfortunately she HELOCed to $400K in ‘05, and even though she put most of it back into the house in the form of upgrades, there’s no way she’ll ever pay it back. She gets VERY upset when I tell her she’ll likely be underwater in the next year.

I’ve only been paying attention to housing issues for about 9 months (and luckily googled “Mortgage advice” before planning to buy, which got me to the HBB somehow). Even though I’m not a FB, it’s affecting me anyway. Who’s going to take care of her if she can’t save for her retirement and loses everything on top of it?

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Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 13:57:03

“Conclusion: My sister’s house is worth around $200k, currently.”

*****

Is that with no water coming out of the tap, or just with drought conditions and no rationing?

Ah…. just kidding you, alad!

Around here there’s a similar disconnect. One can pay rent equal to 50% of the traditional type mortgage payment (money down at purchase, etc.), not including maintenance or taxes.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 13:19:19

Yay! are we winning yet?

Comment by combotechie
2008-06-05 13:32:37

“Yay! are we winning yet?”

You are if you are heavy in cash and light on debt.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:47:30

How about zero on debt? Does that work too? :-D

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Comment by combotechie
2008-06-05 14:12:15

Bonus points awarded for those with zero debt.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 14:29:51

WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO!!!

OlyGal, this means only one thing, and only you and I both know what it is.

It’s Risotto Time™! (not valid in Vermont and Kansas.)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Nick
2008-06-05 13:42:04

More like a point for the people who confuse asset devaluation and deflation. As careful people will point out, inflation/deflation should only be measured with respect to goods and services which do not fluctuate in asset valuation as people invest in them, such as housing. If you confuse the two, you end up thinking deflation is happening when asset valuations go down (as they will at times, independent of the amount of currency relative to non-investment goods and services, which would control real inflation/deflation).

In fact, real inflation is higher than it has been since the late 70’s, as the government “prints” more money to try to keep consumer deficit spending (aka the American “economy”) going. So score one for being able to get the public to still believe the blatantly false CPI numbers too.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 15:05:39

In order for inflation to be sustainable, wages should also go up, right?

According to today’s WSJ, employers have cut more than a quarter-million jobs in the first four months of this year.

So how do explain wages going up when there is more competition for jobs, increasing inventories, declining revenues, and devaluation of currency?

I would argue that once the Fed’s “free” TAF/junk-for-cash Program dries up, that you will see massive asset devaluation as credit becomes even more restricted, which will in turn set off real asset and currency deflation. The Fed is just prolonging the inevitable.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 15:52:20

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that outsourcing also has a deflationary effect on wages (but are inflationary in the country receiving the outsourcing).

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Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-06-05 19:30:28

“In order for inflation to be sustainable, wages should also go up, right?”

Not necessarily. You can have cost/wage push inflation (which we don’t have now); you an have fiat currency / monetary debasement inflation (which we do have now); and you can have excessive demand/limited supply price inflation (which has happened mostly in war economies).

Or some combination. I think a better way to phrase it is:

“In order for our economy to be sustainable, real wages have to go up”.

I don’t think they will.

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Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-06-05 19:19:27

You are correct, sir. Your analysis is absolutely accurate.

For a while there I thought a parallel universe had me talking to myself.

What happens to some contributors on this blog sometimes, is EVERYTHING is seen only as in some stage of “bubble”, or explaining the bubble mindset.

Not that I mind, or have one.

Thanks for your post.

 
 
 
Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 12:28:14

Happy Thursday to you too. I’m just glad we bought half the house we could have qualified for in 2001. We’d be up S creek otherwise. Last night a guy was wandering around the Target parking lot, in the land o’ Escalades and Hummers, begging for gas money. He said he was waiting for his unemployment check. He didn’t look like an alchey, he looked Beat. I gave him a few bucks….vaya con dios.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-06-05 12:35:25

Yesterday an online newspaper had a series of gasoline stories.. i read a few: Truckers waking up with empty fuel tanks.. people selling blood at $40 a pop for gas money.. orgainized thieves rigging pumps to dispense free gas to several cars while someone distracts the clerk inside the Stop n Rob, etc.

Go long on car pooling..

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-05 12:47:44

Hey SaladSD,

Be careful. There’s a bunch of scams going on out there. This was reported on a local news station here in the Bay Area.

A woman with a gas can came up to a person at a gas station and told them she had ran out of gas, her and her child needs to get home and doesn’t have any money to put gas in her car. So the kind hearted person fills up the gas can she is carrying. This same person saw the same woman drive by the gas station a couple minutes later with no child in the car.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 12:57:22

DUH!!!

How old are these people? Twelve?

The beauty of liberal San Francisco or even the liberal UWS of New York is that scam artists pull off the most simple scams that would never fly in Rio or Bombay or Shanghai.

Comment by santacruzsux
2008-06-05 13:46:32

Ha! I’ve seen a few scammers in Santa Cruz given pretty harsh beatdowns for pulling that kind of crap.

The tales told about trolls living under bridges are not fiction.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:54:19

If you pulled this crap in Rio or Bombay, you might be lucky to escape with “just” a broken leg or two.

I’ve actually seen a crowd beat the crap out of scammers. They were lucky to be alive at the end of it.

And I assure you that, unlike the US, the police will turn a blind eye towards this.

 
 
 
Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 12:59:21

I thought it might be a scam, after he collected from me, he wandered over to another woman in the parking lot. I don’t mind being a soft touch the first time; I can’t help but wonder what I’d do if I were stranded without cash for gas, so I give people a little slack, the old karmic investment. If he uses it for nefarious purposes, that’s his bad. I used to live in a more urban area where beggers were common, so it was remarkable seeing a rather middle class looking white guy begging for money in what white folk in northern San Diego county consider an “enclave” protected from the winds of despair. I saw it as a portent of what’s to come.

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-05 13:04:35

Salad, I would’ve done he same thing. Vaya con Dios por tu, tambian.

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Comment by peaceful
2008-06-05 14:57:41

Wow! I saw something that looked similar in a North County Coastal San Diego mall . . . near the Trader Joe’s. I was in my car, getting my groceries situated, and getting ready to pull out. There was a guy walking around approaching anyone who was outside their car. He would talk to them for a minute, and then nothing would come of it and he would approach someone else. I was trying to figure it out because it didn’t look like he was asking a question or for directions, or like they were trying to come up with any answer for him, or that they had anything to say to him.

He may have also been asking for money. He didn’t look like someone who would be asking for money.

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Comment by calex
2008-06-05 16:55:20

I had this lady come up to me in a wheelchair and tell me a story about how she came down on the bus but did not have enough money to get back home on the bus.
My response was, “you should have thought about that before you came down here”
A lady standing next to me felt bad and gave her the money for the bus.
I know what you are thinking, that lady was nice and calex is a dick.
20 minutes later I had to throw her out of the parking lot because she was still bugging customers for money.
And to top it off, in the heat of the argument about how the parking lot is not public property that she pays taxes for, she got out of her wheel chair and tried to hit me.

I met plenty of these street corner beggers because of the last business I owned, you would not believe the amount of money they make doing that. If they could budget and stay off the drugs they would be banking more than a lot of college grads.

 
 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-06-05 13:16:37

I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone in a SoCal parking lot asked me for for money. The story invariably was that they were stranded (this was in north San Diego County) and couldn’t get back to LA because the car had broken down, out of gas, etc. They would get really angry when I said no (I guess that tactic probably works a lot). And they aimed high, usually asking for a twenty, with the promise they would pay me back (suuurrre).

In my almost 15 years in Loveland this has never happened to me. Not once.

Comment by gascap
2008-06-05 15:00:21

I actually fell for this one, I gave a guy $20 down by Seaport village years ago, I was utterly convinced by his story. Much to my chagrine I saw him a few weeks later pleading to someone else for gas money. What a sucker I was, now I realize that good scammers keep scamming and the bad scammers drop out because they are unconvincing.

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 15:08:52

When i’m about to be hit up for money in a parking lot, I always go to the pre-emptive card and ask them for change, first.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-06-05 15:29:35

LOL! I had a friend that would do that in college. On many occasion he was handed a dime…or two.

 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-05 14:11:39

Got a buddy who owns an auto repair shop. Periodically, people come in looking for money to buy dog food or baby food. So, he offers them the handy-dandy can of dog food (or baby food) that he just happens to have at the ready.

And they break records getting off of his property.

Why? Because they’re looking for booze and/or drug money. Nothing more.

Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 14:31:16

Over the weekend a friend related the following.

When someone bugs him for money outside a grocery store or at a gas station in northern California, he says it’s invariably accompanied by the line “… for food.”

So right then and there, he offers to buy them a sandwich or snack of some kind.

All but once over the last decade he has been turned down at every opportunity.

It was his impression that food banks, etc., have done a pretty good job of meeting the needs of those who have wanted food.

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Comment by Marcus
2008-06-05 13:24:31

True story… I was headin home from the local waterin hole a couple years ago and I stopped for gas in a rough spot (about 1am). A serious lookin fella sittin on a bucket outside the minimart asked me for gas $$ as I walked in the door to prepay. I handed him a 5 on the way out to pump my gas (not caring what he was gonna spend it on). As I got to my car another guy emerged from some nearby trees walking quickly in my direction. The rather large scowling man quickend to a jog and rose up his fist only feet away when the man on the bucket yelled, “Nah man he’s cool.” On a dime he turned and walkd to the man on the bucket and found a seat on the curb. I drove away without pumping the gas that I had paid for… shaking and sweating and feeling truly terrified. I call this karma but it was probably just dumb luck. I had rarely if ever given a penny to beggars.

Comment by Lane from s.c.
2008-06-05 13:43:24

I love it when those guys take a bullet.

Lane

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:46:09

This isn’t “karma”.

This is dumb luck before you got mugged. You don’t need to get all metaphysical about it. Just live in a city for a few years. (Even a city kid wouldn’t stop for gas at 1am in a rough spot without expecting this.)

Comment by Marcus
2008-06-05 16:20:15

It was in Durham, NC. The kind of place where it’s easy to feel too safe when I should have known better. I worked a 2nd job in a public health clinic and felt somehow “connected” with the urban population (foolish, I know). Funny how fast that feeling can disappear.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 16:30:14

That “feeling” was the “foolishness”.

Only out of 19th century German Romantic ideas will you get the extraordinarily stupid idea that “poverty” is somehow “ennobling” and/or “romantic”.

I’d suggest a quick trip down to Rio to cure you of such stupid ideas.

 
Comment by Marcus
2008-06-06 05:57:48

Ummmm… stupid? Inexperienced maybe? But I clearly have the ability to learn from my experiences and adapt my behavior. So maybe stupid is a bit harsh.

Besides, I never saw poverty as a glamorous or noble characteristic. I simply knew many of the people from the inner city. I knew their names and they knew mine. It was familiarity on a personal level that gave me my false sense of security. Not “German Romantic ideas”.

Why so judgemental of a kid who made a mistake and felt like sharing?

 
 
 
 
Comment by Homoaner
2008-06-05 14:16:50

We have a Highway Helper program here, where state trucks will assist travelers in trouble, usually changing a tire or giving a jump, or putting a gallon of gas in the car so they can get themselves to a station for a fill. It’s been recently reported that the number of cars that have run out of gas on the highways has skyrocketed. But not all of the vehicles were actually out of fuel. As a result, they’re now requiring people to attempt to start their cars to prove the tank’s dry before they’ll give them the gallon of gas. They’re also finding people who will drive on that Helper gallon until they run dry again, then once more pull over and wait for another Highway Helper to cruise by and give them another gallon.

Yes, I’d say hard times are here.

Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 14:57:55

Now, FPSS you sound a bit like a hard-a$$, but I guess anyone with a Russ Meyers moniker should be, but I don’t feel too pressed about giving one beggar, in say, 10 years, two bucks. If this happened every day, I’d give ‘em the cold shoulder like John Houston finally gave Bogart in the Treasure of Sierra Madre. People have to be pretty desperate to wait around for an hour to get a gallon of free gas, or wander around an uppity shopping center for hand-outs. And there’s so many more fruitful ways to scam– especially in white collar land– behind the cloak of respectability.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 15:21:23

No cowpoke ever thinks there are any scams among beggars. That’s the whole point of scams.

What you think is irrelevant; what is statistically demonstrable is real.

Anyone born and brought up in a city will tend to agree. We’ve seen it all.

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Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 20:58:07

My point, was, that in my little slice of white bread suburbia I’ve never before seen a beggar, scammer or otherwise, EVER. That’s the point. This is a new phenomena, like an invasion from Mars. the sky is falling. there’s a scammer/beggar/poor person in the perfect parking lot. tilt, game over

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-05 12:29:38

“By June 2009, he estimates that will increase to 12.2 million, or almost one out of every four homeowners with a mortgage.”

“But to put that number in perspective, one out of every three homeowners own their properties free and clear, with no mortgage at all.”

My perspective is perfectly clear: Don’t even think about buying until after June 2009.

Comment by cactus
2008-06-05 12:46:52

“My perspective is perfectly clear: Don’t even think about buying until after June 2009.”

yea me too

Comment by az_owner
2008-06-05 13:01:49

Even better, wait until some of Obama/Pelosi/Reid’s handiwork takes effect - we’ll see interest rates in the mid teens and unemployment topping 10% again soon enough.

THEN it will be time to buy again - houses, stocks, assets as the masses panic. I’m waiting to grab some more GE at $20 or less.

Heard someone on the radio say this last night (paraphrased):

“Barack Obama is the Second Coming of J.C. For a few deluded idiots this means the messiah, for everyone else it means Jimmy Carter”.

Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 17:02:44

Now, now, AZ. Bush was the 2nd coming of Christ, he speaks to a higher Father. Does that mean he’s Jimmy Carter, too? Don’t get all squishy and project GOP angst: The election is in November, Bush is still the Decider.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-05 13:09:03

Sounds good to me. :-)

 
 
Comment by Abuyer
2008-06-05 14:09:21

I am with you as a buyer

 
 
Comment by lazarus
2008-06-05 12:34:47

I think a lot of people are now beginning to realise that a rich man is nothing but a poor man with credit or home equity. Money, like the wind usually changes direction unexpectedly and that is why you should never become arrogant, proud or boastful when it blows your way.

Comment by az_lender
2008-06-05 13:23:32

Yes and no. We here at HBB are perhaps lucky to be solvent, but I think our judgment played some part.

 
Comment by jbunniii
2008-06-05 15:42:05

Credit or home equity = Potemkin wealth

Geniunely rich people don’t need debt.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-05 12:43:50

“‘Let home prices fall to a level where they become really affordable,’ he said. ‘Once the prices are sufficiently low, there will be no problem selling homes, there will be no problem getting decent mortgages. Maybe it’s better that home prices fall faster.’”

Hear hear! Why put off the inevitable with hair-of-the-dog respiking operations? The hangover is here, and it will not end until the supply side and demand side of the market can agree on the (lower) equilibrium price in a world devoid of flippers and liar loans.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-05 12:46:17

“‘The danger is that the effect of the recent credit extension on the incentives of financial-market participants might induce greater risk taking,’ Lacker said in a speech to the European Economics and Financial Centre in London. That ‘in turn could give rise to more frequent crises,’ he said.”

Perhaps this explains why historically, central bankers have made a practice of taking away the punchbowl before the party gets too debaucherous.

Comment by texas rules
2008-06-05 13:25:02

debauchery:
1. Extreme indulgence in sensual pleasures; dissipation.
2. Orgies

dissipated:
1. Behaviorally, cognitively, and emotionally incapacitated due to excessive drug use.

Seeing “central bankers” and “debaucherous” in the same sentence is quite disturbing.

Never again will I enjoy my weekly menage-a-trois or my crack pipe quite as much as I once did…

 
Comment by santacruzsux
2008-06-05 13:28:31

“Moral hazard? We don’t need no stinking moral hazard!”

It’s just loan not a hand out. I’ll pay it back. Honest. I’m totally good for it. Really, just call some of my buddies, they’ll back me up. Hey, I’ve loaned money myself so I know how this works.

Trust me.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-06-05 12:55:05

“California, Florida, Arizona and Nevada have been hit by a hangover after a home building boom in the middle of the decade, which was fueled by rising home prices and investors snatching up real estate using risky mortgages. Those four states have nearly 400,000 homes in foreclosure, or a third of the nationwide total. Roughly 3.6% of all of the loans in these states are now in foreclosure.”

Which means that 96.4% of all mortgages are NOT in foreclosure. Uh oh! Methinks the real pain is yet to come…

 
Comment by Lisa
2008-06-05 12:59:58

“There are 431,000 prime loans in foreclosure, a seasonally adjusted rate of 1.2% that is more than double the 0.5% rate a year ago. The report showed about 1.2 million prime mortgages are now a month or more past due.”

PRIME loans, hear that MSM!!! And of those 1.2M that are now a month “or more” (gotta love that one), how many will end up in foreclosure as well?

And, don’t we have the big wave of Pay Option ARMS and AltA resets coming up?

Oh goodie!

 
Comment by joe momma
2008-06-05 13:22:38

“‘Let home prices fall to a level where they become really affordable,’ he said. ‘Once the prices are sufficiently low, there will be no problem selling homes, there will be no problem getting decent mortgages. Maybe it’s better that home prices fall faster.’”

This is friggin outrageous! Imagine a capitalistic system actually letting market forces work? In this country?

LOL

Never going to happen. The assholes running this asylum will NEVER let market forces work. Not without a fight. Because letting market forces work means acknowledging that this entire economy is a sham. One huge Ponzy scheme. The entitlement crowd will never let this happen. And they paid good money for their politicians to make sure it doesn’t happen.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-05 14:20:46

‘Never going to happen.’

I hate to pop your balloon, but it’s been happening for years and is picking up steam. Your mistake is the assumption of the all-powerful Fed, govt. and corporations. They aren’t. Look how the market forces have humbled Fed chiefs, CEOs, politicians. As I said all along; we ain’t gotta do nothing, this bubble will collapse under its own weight. And if recent events aren’t proof enough for you, you’ve got blinders on.

The fact is, if the subject is large enough, like real estate, market forces always prevail, no matter what system is in place. It may take a while, like the Soviet Union, but eventually mean old mister supply and demand wins every time.

Comment by lazarus
2008-06-05 14:44:28

“Market forces always prevail”

It’s the same thing with natural forces. I bet some people will believe the government if they say they want to stop cold winters in Chicago or hurricanes in Florida. I can just about read the headlines: “Government to abolish snowstorms”

Comment by annata
2008-06-05 15:27:21

Market forces are nothing like natural forces.

The simplest demonstration of this is that there has never been a truly free market in the history of the human world. In a completely free market, absent of any regulation, a bunch of bullies will figure out that it’s a lot easier to beat people up and take their money than to make something and try to sell it at a profit. It takes a lot of government “interference” to get markets to an even quasi-free state.

There’s nothing magical or about market forces. The only reason why they tend to work well is because increasing prices usually lead to lower demand, providing a self-correction mechanism. Any system with negative feedback leads to stability, and the more often they get feedback, the better they work. However, as bubbles clearly demonstrate, not all markets have negative feedback all the time. During periods when the negative feedback mechanism is absent, free markets don’t work very well either.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 15:59:17

You bring up a very good point. Regarding bubbles: Isn’t greed a form of positive feedback when exploiting a market environment stilted by regulation, education, or convention towards a particular privileged group?

Positive feedback (feed-forward) mechanisms are also inherently destabilizing, even in the presence of negative feedback.

 
 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-06-05 16:14:07

We’re already there. Ever heard about global warming?

“Government to abolish higher than normal temperatures.”

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Comment by reuven
2008-06-05 13:23:13

“There are 431,000 prime loans in foreclosure, a seasonally adjusted rate of 1.2% that is more than double the 0.5% rate a year ago. The report showed about 1.2 million prime mortgages are now a month or more past due.”

I mentioned to my too-liberal Brother that I was going to vote Republican this year. I said that I was afraid the Democrats will go too far in attempting to bail out borrowers.

My Brother is truly an out-of-touch elitist liberal. He lives in a rent-controlled Manhattan apartment.

He said to me:

“Don’t be so smug! Just because you didn’t have to take out a sub-prime mortgage, doesn’t mean you’re better than these poor people!”

So, we need to print money bail out 1.2 Million people because we can’t expect them to be smart enough to make good decisions? I’m also amazed at the notion–and I’ve heard this from other Liberals–that people were somehow forced into taking out crazy loans and buying houses.

Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 14:08:31

I know a lot of out-of-touch elitist liberals. I really don’t have any choice, considering where I live.

And perhaps because I’m from Vermont, I’m related to at least another one, too.

In any case, when they say they favor bailouts, I’m struck by the fact it’s really less about any regard for fellow citizens, and more about their individual selfish concern for their home equity.

It’s a “John Kerry in public” meets an “Ayn Rand in private” kind of philosophy.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-06-05 21:12:17

That’s correct, I doubt the reason the polls show 48-52% in favor of a bailout is because half the country are liberal elitists. Half the country is depending on their inflated home values for retirement or future HELOCing.

 
 
Comment by CantRememberMyOldName
2008-06-05 14:15:40

You should explain to him in your best postmodernist intellectual language (so as to avoid needing a translator) that is has nothing to do with bailing out poor people, they are just the first casualty. The more affluent are next in line for the foreclosure bus.

Let me try for you.

The use of collectivist ontological paradigms in regards to the subprime mortgage crisis, miss the higher order diagrams dealing with the transient nature of credit in the upper economic tiers.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2008-06-05 15:08:09

I’m Liberal, and don’t favor bail-outs, so don’t lump us all together. Your brother doth not one Liberal make.

 
Comment by spike66
2008-06-05 15:17:03

“My Brother is truly an out-of-touch elitist liberal. He lives in a rent-controlled Manhattan apartment.”

I live in a rent-stabilized apt. in Manhattan. Subprime lending is a joke. Ask him if he would lend his own money to any of these folks?
If the only loan you can qualify for is subprime, you don’t need a house, you need to clean up your financial act. Pay off your debts, save money and live under your means. Not sophisticated advice, but the only thing that works.

 
Comment by Malibucreek
2008-06-05 16:32:25

Yeah, and the Republicans will bail out the *lenders* instead. ;-)

Remember, it *was* a GOP congress/president/fed reserve combination that oversaw the bulk of this thing.

 
 
Comment by Marc
2008-06-05 13:32:00

Stocks like CFC fell 90% from their peaks… and investors take it like a Man. If Housing was treated like a stock then it will behave like a stock. Why are there any whiners not accepting that and behaving like pussies???

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-06-05 14:13:13

Excellent point. Why does nobody feel sorry for me when I take the unholy a** pounding on the stock market? Where’s my bailout?

Oh, I forgot.. I was gambling and lost, I’m not supposed to get a bailout for that.. Or am I?

And, right now, I’m feeling like a need a govt bailout; trust me. Stupid banks, just when you think they can’t go any lower; down they go. Errr.. I’ve gotten to the point where when I see them trending down, I cheer it on, go to 0 you ba**ards!

:)

 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-05 13:34:38

Now they’re reporting on MSNBC that the investment banks are no longer bellying up to the discount window, but commercial bank borrowing is unchanged. I wonder what that means for all the level 3 stuff? Are they successfully deleveraging?

 
Comment by Gulfstream-sitter
2008-06-05 14:24:25

Slightly off-topic…..
Is anyone else getting tired of developers/builders giving their dime a dozen developments such high falutin’ names like “Pheasant Pointe”, “Woodland Parke” and “Settlements at LaFox”.

Just once I’d like to see a sign out front like:

“Tightly-packed Stucco Crapboxes by Toll” …. or,

“Half-ass Crackerboxes by Leonard, and his Meth smoking, worthless brother-in-law”

Comment by NotInMontana
2008-06-05 15:36:27

Yep. Here we have a Pleasant View subdivision with no view, A Hellgate Meadows with no meadow, a Canyon Creek with no creek…what’s hilarious is that Canyon Creek is a low-end large development of small houses on tiny lots originally at 100-200k, out in an industrial park next to Interstate 90. At the other end of town is a purty golf course-lifestyle development called Canyon River, with places in the 400s.

Everyone always gets their names mixed up, esp on city council where they kept saying Canyon Creek when they really mean the other place. What the hell, with these names..

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-06-05 16:16:54

How about Crapbox Pointe?

 
 
Comment by sf jack
2008-06-05 14:39:39

“If nothing else, the results showed that shoppers have finally registered higher prices at the gas pump and grocery store, waning real-estate values and insecurity about the employment picture and are drastically changing their spending habits.”

“It’s been a long road — marked with maxed-out credit cards, upside-down mortgages and gas-guzzling SUVs — and to get people to change their free-spending ways. And it’s about time.”

*****

MarketWatch First Take

Breaking news commentary for Jun. 5, 2008

Best of time for discounters
Commentary: American consumer is now a trained bargain-hunter
Last Update: 12:25 PM ET Jun 5, 2008

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — For May, it was a tale of two retails, as the dismal economic environment continued to pressure consumers.
If nothing else, the results showed that shoppers have finally registered higher prices at the gas pump and grocery store, waning real-estate values and insecurity about the employment picture and are drastically changing their spending habits.

Retailers posted mixed same-store sales and deep divisions among categories, with apparel retailers and upscale merchants taking a beating and discounters shining. See full retail sales story.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc.’s sales blew past Wall Street’s expectations, and it looks like people are spending at least some of their rebate checks after all — $350 million of which they cashed at stores.

Warehouse stores Costco Wholesale Corp. and BJ’s Wholesale Club Inc. also performed well, as shoppers flocked there for bulk merchandise, as well as gasoline. Deep discounter Family Dollar Stores Inc. also beat expectations.

Meanwhile, many apparel retailers were slammed as shoppers seem to be cutting back on discretionary spending, and hitting discounters for most of their spending needs.
If they wanted to buy clothes, consumers realized they can do well at discounters or off-price retailers like Ross Stores Inc.

Luxury retailers were once thought to be recession-resistant because their super-rich core customer was immune to the winds of the economy. Not so much anymore. Apparently people are even looking for — gasp — a bargain at places like Nordstrom Inc.

Nordstrom’s same-store sales soared but the results were juiced because the company moved the date of the popular half-yearly sale to fall in May. And Saks suffered in the month because it held its big sale in April. It’s worrisome that even these retailers are reliant on sweeping discounts to drive sales.

It’s been a long road — marked with maxed-out credit cards, upside-down mortgages and gas-guzzling SUVs — and to get people to change their free-spending ways. And it’s about time.

— Angela Moore, U.S. commentary editor

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-05 16:53:07

What has made this one of the more memorable weeks, is all the name-brand celebs (Ed McMahon, Evander Hollyfield, et al) that have lost/are on the verge of losing their houses…

The cult of celebrity being what it is in our country, will spread this news far and wide, as in everybody is in danger of losing their homes, now.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-06-05 21:16:34

And none of them will be homeless.

 
 
Comment by malfunction_junction
2008-06-05 22:30:22

I’m glad you postd this article about Australia today. I dont get to see my friends there much anymore because they have all fled the cities to work at the mines and cattle stations due to the unsustainable cost of living in urban areas. They have less than 10% of the population of the states, but the government wont let you build anywhere so that the prices remain completely out of whack.

 
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