June 11, 2008

A Delusion That Values Would Forever Rise

Some housing bubble news from around the world. Buffalo News, “It is a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Susie Lenahan glides her Acura sedan past a row of picture-book Victorians. A recent afternoon finds her in Allentown, Buffalo’s frayed but still elegant artsy/gay epicenter. Spotting a for-sale sign outside a multicolored ‘painted lady,’ Lenahan — among the area’s best-known real estate agents — nods and smiles. ‘It’s going for $329,000,” she says. ‘Five years ago, it would have been $100,000 less.’”

“We have seen the worst of times, and plenty of them. Now in neighborhoods across Western New York, it is the best of times. The housing market in hothouse-growth metropolises is suffering, while Buffalo’s soars. The bottom is dropping out in San Diego, Las Vegas, Tampa/St. Pete and other mutant-growth ZIP codes. Housing prices plummeted by more than 20 percent this year in some places. Good times in boom towns fueled ever-higher home prices and rampant new builds. Greed-blinded gamblers bought and quickly sold, ‘flipping’ houses like cards. New homeowners stretched themselves thin, fed by a delusion that values would forever rise.”

“It was the dot-com bubble all over again. Only this time, it burst in the faces of wishful-thinking homeowners and real estate speculators. ‘It was totally unrealistic,’ Lenahan said. ‘Prices can’t go up 40 percent a year.’”

The Journal Sentinel” target=”_blank”>Juournal Sentinel. “Low interest rates and prices that a local real estate official said are near bottom failed to pull the area housing market out of the doldrums in May, new data show. Sales were down in all Milwaukee-area counties, and listings fell in all but Kenosha, according to figures from the MLS of Wauwatosa.”

“Michael Ruzicka, president of the Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors, said he believes ‘buyers may be missing a huge opportunity. Housing isn’t going to get any cheaper.’”

“A reason for the soft figures is that buyers have unrealistic expectations about what they will have to pay for a property while some potential sellers are withholding putting their homes on the market for fear prices are too low, he said.”

” Ruzicka said inventory levels probably hit their peak late last year and that ‘things should be taking off this summer.’ But he added: ‘I don’t think we are at the point where inventories are so low that we are going to get multiple offers on every shack.’”

The Memphis Daily News. “The Houston-based redeveloper of a Downtown high rise has become frustrated with the soft real estate market and will place 44 unsold condominiums on the auction block. The first 10 will be sold absolute, which means they will be sold to the highest bidder regardless of price. Starting bids on the rest of the units will be based on the prices of those first 10.”

“‘The sales velocity in the entire Downtown area has dropped off significantly over the last couple of years,’ said Mike Maerz, director of investments and property development for McCord Development. ‘There are still sales going on, but with the number of new units in the marketplace, the velocity has been diluted. And with negative national press on the housing market, we feel we’d rather be the first one to auction off units in the marketplace rather than later in the game.’”

The Miami County Republic. “While some homebuyers continue to migrate south from the Kansas City metropolitan area to Louisburg, realtor Doug Busby said that growth has slowed considerably. ‘New housing starts are way off what they were a couple of years ago,’ Busby said. ‘I don’t want to sound all doom and gloom, because I do think we have bottomed out, and I think the market will start to pick back up. But it hasn’t happened yet. Traffic is still pretty slow.’”

“Tired of driving in circles to make ends meet, Jaime and Lisa Watts are ready to sell their rural Louisburg property and move back to the Olathe area, a little more than a year after they migrated south to Miami County. While it wasn’t the tipping point, costly fuel prices did play a role in the couple’s desire to move closer to their jobs.”

“‘Gas prices have gone insane, just in the short time we’ve lived here,’ Lisa Watts said. ‘My husband and I both work in Overland Park, and higher gas prices contributed to our decision to move.’”

The Daily from Australia. “The Local Government Association of Queensland has attacked plans to fast-track land releases on the Sunshine Coast, saying it will do nothing to improve housing affordability.”

“LGAQ executive director Greg Hallam said while governments were genuinely concerned about affordability, it was a furphy to suggest that increasing supply would bring prices down. ‘Numerous independent reports have shown prices are driven by macro-economic policy,’ he said.”

“‘We have the highest level of second home ownership in the western world and, with negative gearing and minimal capital gains, people will continue to invest in this sector. The lack of logic (in the government’s approach) is borne out by the experience in Perth, where they have the most available land and the highest prices. I would be shocked if any of these initiatives reduced the price of houses,’ he said.”

The Ashburton Guardian from New Zealand. “Ashburton has reached section saturation, with around 100 house lots looking for new owners. During the first six months of this year, only a handful of sections sold in urban Ashburton; last month there were none and that has to be hurting someone, somewhere, says real estate industry spokesman Roger Burdett.”

“‘It’s quite alarming when I look at that. There are between 90 and 100 sections on the market that I know of and they’re just sitting and that’s not counting sections in Rakaia, Hinds and Methven. And there will be others that have gone under the radar,’ he said.”

“The section bottle-neck owed some of its origins to spec home builders who had unsold properties on their hands and who were simply not reinvesting in home lots until the market picked up, Mr Burdett said. ‘It’ll be great to have those sections when the market picks up and they will move, but prices will have to be looked at.’”

“Large numbers of sections are being marketed off Manse Street, Racecourse Road, Tuarangi Road, and in several Tinwald locations as well as many small lots developed as infill housing. All were simply sitting, he said.”

“A developer who knows first hand how tough selling a section can be is Ben Hansen. Like other developers he has spec houses to sell, blocks of land to subdivide. And nothing is moving.
With just 11 houses sold in Ashburton in the past month, there’s not a lot of room for spec home builders to move, Mr Hansen said.”

“‘We’ve got four or so on the go at the moment and I’ll just turn those into rentals, that’s what a lot of spec builders are doing and that’s driving the price of rentals downhe said.”

“At least there’d be one winner, the home renter, he said. While he could turn his spec homes into rental properties, when it came to the 20 odd sections he still wanted to sell, Mr Hansen said they would just sit until the market came right. ‘I’ll chip away at growing my rental stock, but unfortunately you can’t rent out a section,’ Hansen said.”

“Because most local builders were pretty conservative, they would be in a position where they could quit a property and at least break even, he said. ‘This is a stressful time to be in property – renters, purchasers, real estate agents, but this is just part of the cycle, you can’t bludgeon people into buying houses.’”

The Kingman Daily Miner. “Like the rest of the nation, Kingman has seen its share of foreclosures in the housing market. Now, however, those facing foreclosure have someone new to turn to for advice. Last week, Gov. Janet Napolitano announced her latest effort to curtail the wave of foreclosures that has wracked Arizona in the last few years - a local toll-free help line.”

“On June 1, Kingman Realtor Todd Tarson found 596 single-family residences listed for sale within the boundaries of the city of Kingman, the Butler area, the Hualapai Mountain area and the Valle Vista subdivisions. Of these, 56 houses - nearly a tenth - were listed as foreclosures.”

“When Tarson pulled the preliminary sales data from January through May of this year, that figure turned even grimmer. Foreclosures have thus far accounted for nearly a third of single-family home sales - 59 of the 195 homes sold - and they tend to go for significantly less than non-bank-owned property.”

“‘The kicker is, foreclosures are having a big impact on our market, but they’re selling faster,’ Tarson said.”

The San Mateo County Times. “Prices continued to slip in May on homes under $1 million in San Mateo County, but there may be light at the end of the tunnel on slumping sales, according to a new report. While May home sales fell 18 percent countywide compared to May 2007, sales have improved some this spring, according to the San Mateo County Association of Realtors.”

“The May drop of 18 percent and the 14 percent fall in April have given Realtors cause for optimism. These are the first two months in a year that the sales slowdown has been less than 20 percent. In the other months, sales have tanked between 22 percent and 45 percent.”

“Many of the homes in the $700,000 range were purchased in the past two years with subprime loans, and a number of buyers got in over their heads and didn’t have the qualifications of good credit and a stable job, said Ron Gable, VP of Alain Pinel Realtors in both San Mateo and Half Moon Bay.

“‘That was a recipe for disaster,’ said Gable.”

The Recordnet. “The company that staged the first Internet auction of unsold new homes in the Central Valley is calling its first auction a success. The real estate auction firm, based in Newport Beach, staged an auction beginning in April of 63 homes built by San Ramon-based Pacific Mountain Partners. That included 18 houses in Lathrop’s Mossdale Landing as well as houses in Gridley, north of Sacramento in Butte County; and Madera and Kerman, both near Fresno.”

“All 20 of the Madera homes were unexpectedly pulled into foreclosure by the bank, said Kelly Lovegrove, director of operations. But the remaining 43 have been sold, with most of them in escrow, she said.”

“In Lathrop, the lowest winning bid was $225,000 for a home with 2,333 square feet of space, four bedrooms and three baths. The highest was $365,000 for a 3,182-square-foot house with five bedrooms and 31/2 bathrooms. The Mossdale Landing homes originally were priced beginning at $540,000. Auction sale prices there averaged about $280,000.”

“Lovegrove said that since the auction, the company’s sales people have been busy talking with builders and banks about new properties for auction. ‘I suspect we will be back in that area soon,’ she said.”

The Ventura County Star. “LandSource Communities Development, the company behind the massive Newhall Ranch project near Santa Clarita, has been swept up in the turbulent real estate market. The Miami-based company, which operates in California, Arizona, Florida, New Jersey, Nevada and Texas, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. It would allow the company to restructure its $1.24 billion debt, while continuing to operate ‘our business as usual,’ LandSource spokeswoman Tamara Taylor said in a release Monday.”

“‘Because of the downturn in the real estate market, we found ourselves in the same situation as other land development companies; the terms of our loans no longer work in today’s environment,’ said Taylor.”

“LandSource did not rule out the possibility of being sold. The company’s assets include 15,000 acres of undeveloped land north of Los Angeles. Ventura County Supervisor Kathy Long, whose district borders the development in Los Angeles County, has her doubts that the development will advance.”

“‘I don’t know if they’re strong enough to go forward,’ she said.”

The Oregonian. “David Oringdulph built Legend Homes over four decades by building middle-class housing in Willamette Valley suburbs. With home prices rocketing up, Oringdulph, the company’s founder, expanded to red-hot Southern California. He also bought land for the first time in Bend, Oregon’s boomtown, and returned to fast-growing Vancouver.”

“Then the housing market tumbled. All three land deals fell apart. Legend’s parent company, Matrix Development, got stuck holding land worth less than the company owed on it. On Tuesday, the three deals sent Legend Homes into bankruptcy.”

“Legend’s troubles show how the national housing slump has rippled through the Portland area even though the region has largely escaped the depths of the market downturn playing out in California, Arizona and Florida.”

“Legend, the state’s fifth-largest homebuilder since 2000, is by the far the biggest to turn to bankruptcy. The move could mean trouble for small subcontractors who have been teetering in a slow market. ‘It’s sad,” said John Satterberg, president of Community Financial, a major construction lender to Oregon homebuilders. ‘I’ve never seen a builder that big tip over in the 30 years I’ve been here.’”

“‘If I hadn’t gone out and done all these deals, we’d be in great shape,’ Oringdulph said. ‘It was kind of like, ‘How can this happen?’ It happened. It couldn’t have been worse.’”




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124 Comments »

Comment by Tim
2008-06-11 13:19:51

“[S]ome potential sellers are withholding putting their homes on the market for fear prices are too low.”

First thing to make me smile this week. Thanks Ben!

Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-06-11 13:28:55

Circa 2009
Open any new checking account with BOfA and get a free house. Limited to new customers only.

Comment by Tim
2008-06-11 13:45:26

The bigger question is what WAMU would have to offer to compete. I got two more smiles from the closing price of WAMU and LEH today. I know many of you think I’m pro bank bail-out, but I’m just for orderly deconstruction and rebuilding.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:36:21

Tim - o/t - while it is out of line for posters here to criticize other posters for everyday / minor grammar and spelling errors, I want to compliment you, as a relatively new “regular,” on your well-crafted posts. It is as if you do your composition on a WP, then post (which is what I’d do, if I weren’t (a) lazy and (b) anxious. This is no slam on anyone else’s posts, because I am as error-prone as any, but yours are particularly clean.

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Comment by Tim
2008-06-11 18:33:07

Never thought I would hear that one. I thought I had the highest typo ratio on here. I like to blame it on reading and commenting during conference calls (or at night on playing multiple on-line poker tables). As far as I am concerned, as long as the substance gets through, no worries.

 
Comment by NotInMontana
2008-06-11 19:28:59

Typos can drive me crazy. Especially when someone leaves out a key word like “not.”

 
Comment by Robin
2008-06-11 23:05:44

Thanks, “In Montana!”

 
 
 
 
Comment by I am Sam
2008-06-11 14:02:47

Michael Ruzicka is the face of Wisconsin idiocy… this place is in so much denial it’s ridiculous.

Fear was always their main selling point “buy or be priced out FOREVER,” and instead of capituating like FL, AZ, CA, they just wont let go of the fear factor: “buy now watch interest rates soar.”

How about this: lower prices AND rates (FFR=2, fat bankers charging 6.3) or you yourself will lose YOUR cheese wedge house FOREVER!!!

Comment by mikey
2008-06-11 14:22:55

“Michael Ruzicka, president of the Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors, said he believes ‘buyers may be missing a huge opportunity. Housing isn’t going to get any cheaper.’”

Buy NOW!!!…before our overpriced, waterlogged, POS shacks wash away Forever :)

Comment by Larry
2008-06-11 15:02:14

“Housing isn’t going to get any cheaper.”

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!!! As my Gov Schwarzenerrer would say…Dat’s a guud wun!

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Comment by mikey
2008-06-11 15:06:09

More rain tomorrow Michael…BUY NOW
..Free waterpump with each purchase..Glug..Glug :)

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Comment by Ann
2008-06-11 16:03:07

+Comments like this just shows you that realtors don’t understand economics..

With high gas prices,higher cost of living,and unemployment creeping higher… the last thing you want to do is buy a house..

housing is not cheap..there are more costs involved than just the “mortgage.”

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Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:39:08

Ann- thanks again for your tips on GA stuff. Checkin’ it out.

 
Comment by gal
2008-06-11 20:37:23

“+Comments like this just shows you that realtors don’t understand economics..”

I think it is not only realtors, but many top government officials don’t understand economics… That is why they did not prepare their States for “rainy day”. Everybody in this site knew what was coming four years ago, but not California State top officials, that are surprise today with the state of the economy… even Mr. GREENSPIIIIIINNNN.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-06-11 22:04:28

They knew. Saying things like “no one could have foreseen…” is simply CYA 101.

 
 
Comment by ThomasPS
2008-06-11 18:22:47

‘Prices can’t go up 40 percent a year.’”

We had prices double from 1998 to 2000 and then go up high double digit % from there on year over year…nearly 10 years of the housing bubble in SF Bay Area.

Only now its being undone… way too many people
thought their 1500 sq ft sh*t hole was worth $600,000

LOL! from $600K back down to $175K (adj for inflation)
is a long way down…

I could of told you back in 2000 we had a housing bubble!

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Comment by milkcrate
2008-06-11 22:44:27

In my neighborhood, there is evidence that investors/speculators are coming off the sidelines. Two REO houses sold; one was dressed up with new sprinklers and rented in six weeks; the other was “rehabbed” with a new lawn and a junk cleaning, and now has a Realtor for-sale sign out front. Right out of “Pimp My House” or whatever that unscripted TV show is called. The buyer of the rental house must guess a bottom is near. Who knows what the flipper is thinking. Both are about 2,000 sq. ft. Fresno homes in a PUD that fetched $400,000 when the souffle was at the top. Bleeve they are selling in the $270K range today. The rent on these homes is around $1,100, so the math on the rental doesn’t jive unless a substantial rebound is around the next corner. Maybe the rental buyer just wanted a tax write-off. He could drown in red ink.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 23:21:18

Hi milkcrate:

I don’t think “investors” ever really stopped buying real estate. They just stopped making money at it a few years ago, and are still not making money at it today. At least the landlord guy didn’t buy tooooo far from the bottom.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by JRinUT
2008-06-11 13:26:14

““Michael Ruzicka, president of the Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors, said he believes ‘buyers may be missing a huge opportunity. Housing isn’t going to get any cheaper.’””

This guy needs to take one out of the Clinton playbook and “not inhale”.

Comment by wmbz
2008-06-11 13:32:10

Unless it’s a cigar.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:40:29

LOL. Bumper sticker (hope I’m not repeating it from an HBB post):

Al Gore
Close, but no cigar

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 13:37:16

I want a puff of what Micheal is smoking. Just one puff. That’s all I ask.

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 13:46:52

“I want a puff of what Micheal is smoking.”

Call your local Realtor for details!

 
 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-06-11 13:42:14

General Michael A. Ruzicka and the battle of “Little Milwaukee”

 
 
Comment by Lip
2008-06-11 13:35:16

On the Ground in Tucson

Well at least one part of Tucson has a bustling economy. The Guadalajara Grill was so busy last night that no parking spots were available. Like am I in the OC or what?

AZ Slim, thanks for the recommendation a couple of months ago. The food, the XX, the fresh salsa mixed at your table, and the Mariachi band were all excellent.

Lip

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 13:38:51

You’re welcome!

And if you’d ever like to participate in a Tucson HBB meetup, I know lots of good eating and drinking establishments in the central part of the city. And I’ll make a really cool “It’s Different Here” sign for us.

Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 13:55:16

What a great idea! We should have little lapel pins made up so no matter where you go bubble bloggers will be able to recognize one another!

No one else need know. We could have “Member Since 2003″ etc.

 
Comment by Lip
2008-06-11 14:31:41

Slim,

That would be great. At this point I don’t have any plans to come back, but I think I’ll be there about once a month this summer.

Lip

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 15:24:02

I think an HBB meetup at Guadalajara Grill would be a fine idea.

Psst, Ben, do you think we could have a thread for those of us who wish to have local meetups such as the ones our Cali brethren just had with you? Or shall we make such arrangements in the Bits Bucket?

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Comment by BanteringBear
2008-06-11 15:29:27

Is AZ Slim a guy or gal? The only reason I ask, is I have seen Lost refer to you as a gal, and ExNNV refer to you as a guy. Not that it matters much…

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 15:38:01

You’ll have to come to our meetup and find out, Bear.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-06-11 15:43:55

LOL, arrrrrgh! I’ll guess gal. :)

 
Comment by Hazard
2008-06-11 17:21:52

Ahhh … well … uhhh … I’m betting on both.

 
Comment by Lip
2008-06-11 17:30:30

I could be way off, but I was thinking tall, tan, and weathered man. You never really know about these things.

 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:42:37

Two out of three ain’t bad.

 
 
 
Comment by 85701 is overrated
2008-06-11 16:38:29

hey count me in

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 13:36:44

“It was totally unrealistic,’ Lenahan said. ‘Prices can’t go up 40 percent a year.”

Dang, why is this guy so negative?

 
Comment by turnoutthelights
2008-06-11 13:37:50

While May home sales fell 18 percent countywide compared to May 2007, sales have improved some this spring, according to the San Mateo County Association of Realtors.”

“The May drop of 18 percent and the 14 percent fall in April have given Realtors cause for optimism. These are the first two months in a year that the sales slowdown has been less than 20 percent. In the other months, sales have tanked between 22 percent and 45 percent.”

Keep any and all sharp objects away from these people.
Though I suppose it is possible for the rate of change to go negative, should people give houses back to the realtors.

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-11 13:49:28

Wasn’t that long ago that Ben had a thread asking how quickly we thought all this would happen, where we were in the crash, what phase.

I think it’s coming on faster than many thought, kind of like a rogue train rolling down a steep grade.

Stand waaaay to the side, get your cameras out, hold your hands over your ears, and be ready to run!

Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-06-11 13:56:51

It’s happening @ around the same speed the glaciers are melting in Greenland, much quicker than anticipated…

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:45:41

EN - that’s really good. It’s after cocktail hour, mind you, but that one seems particularly dry.

 
 
Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-06-11 16:08:28

You just feel that way because the refrigerator and stove are now missing from your “rental” house. For the rest of the Utah and the Mountain West, the real-estate based prosperity will last forever. Stop trying to drag us down into your world of squatter cots and hand-chewing dogs. ;)

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-11 16:23:27

ROTFLMAO!!!

My cot collapsed last night onto the bone fido squatter dogs and they are no more, ran away to better digs. :)

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 16:20:18

Before the crash began in earnest, I have to admit that I was getting really impatient about, fretting that our elected officials might find a way to keep prices high forever. Well, now I feel a bit silly for that. It is plain to see that a free market eventually overwhelms all attempts at control. What goes up truly must come down, and how.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:51:51

Big V - I wanted to tease you on that one, but I could not find one darned town named Earnest in the entire U.S.

Comment by deflationaryjane
2008-06-11 18:13:12

So much for the importance of being

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Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:33:41

LOL

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 13:51:43

I’m tickled endlessly that Buffalo is finally… having their moment in the sun, but after 3 decades of steadily declining population..?

What is this event telling us? That the the delay in the “rolling bubble” finally reached the last place you’d ever imagine it would?

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 14:03:13

“It is a Goldilocks market — not too hot, not too cold. Even in good times, Buffalo does not eat its middle class. Young couples can still buy in. Working families do not get priced out. And nobody falls off a cliff. There is a lot to be said for all of that. Just ask folks in St. Pete and San Diego.”

As a former resident of Buffalo, and a current (nearby) of St. Pete, this is one of the most absurd statements I have seen in the whole bubble drama. I live in St. Pete because I couldn’t get a job in Buffalo 8 years ago!!

How can anyone in the Buffalo region be so naive? Isn’t the city still trying to figure out how to deal with some 10,000 abandoned commercial properties and some 30,000 residential? Buffalo is also one of the poineering cities suing banks for not maintaining properties. How can property values “soar” while the city is suing banks?

Oh yeah, Clownifornians and Floridiots looking to arb the housing situation.

I

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 14:08:43

http://biz.yahoo.com/law/080509/59fdcf4157eb2f859fa00816d486efd8.html?.v=1

“Buffalo is trying to recoup its cost in demolishing 57 homes on which the banks foreclosed and then allegedly walked away from. Buffalo wants to collect the $16,000 it cost the city to demolish each home. City of Buffalo and Mayor Byron W. Brown v. ABN Amro Mortgage Co., No. 2008002200 (Erie Co., N.Y., Sup. Ct.).”

Ihttp://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/347946.html

“Buffalo has about 18,000 derelict houses, which the city plans to demolish at a rate of 1,000 a year”

 
Comment by Frank Hague
2008-06-11 14:10:13

My favorite comment on Buffalo came from a friend’s uncle who has lived there all of his life. He described the situation as follows, “All of our young people leave as soon as they can, the weather is awful and there are no jobs available, other than that it is a great place to live.”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 14:15:46

Preach it, Frank! My mother is from Buffalo, and she got out of there after high school. She went to college in another state, met my father there, and they married right after he graduated.

I don’t remember the last time Mom went back to Buffalo for a visit. I think it was when I was still a toddler, which would make it at least 45 years ago.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 14:34:52

Oh don’t get me wrong, I don’t have anything against Buffalo! Many of the nicest people I’ve met in the service and in the workforce were from there. Great work ethic and a strong sense of loyalty. Some of the greatest fans in the country too.

I think the movie “Buffalo 66″ summed it up pretty well? Personally I wouldn’t mind spending my summer in some of these once-great rust belt towns? Perhaps it’s the fact that they look incredibly affordable and people are now willing to downsize their career expectations to have a decent home and lifestyle?

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 14:38:15

And how about the nonchalant attitude toward the harsh winter weather? I’ve said things to my mother about it, and she’ll say, “So, it gets cold and snows in Buffalo during the winter. What else is new?”

In short, Buffalo people are tough.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 14:52:58

Well they could always move to Portland, OR and get driven slowly insane by our Chinese water torture?

We had a 22 day run of below avg. temps. in Apr/May ( well below ) and we’re on track to have our COLDEST June on record!

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-11 15:04:59

DinOr,

Wish you could ship that rain down this way. It is dry, dry, dry here.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-06-11 15:33:59

Yes, cold June here in the PNW. I’ve been running the wood stove the past several nights. It doesn’t bother me a bit though, as I HATE the heat. I’ll take Buffalo winters over AZ summers any day of the week.

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 16:13:26

“I think the movie “Buffalo 66″ summed it up pretty well”

Sorta. Buffalo is a little more exciting than that. He didn’t hit Main St./South Campus, Allentown, Chippewa or Elmwood.

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 16:21:42

OT, Buffalo: one of the best memes ever came after the Sabres run for the Stanley Cup in ‘98. Every one would shout, “Go Sabres!” after everything. It evolved to be some sort of “get-out-of-jail-for-free” card. For example, you could jaywalk while shouting, “Go Sabres!” and everyone would laugh, even if you were screwing up traffic.

People would empty out of the bars, puke on the street, and yell, “Go Sabres!” even in the off-season. It was really funny.

 
Comment by spike66
2008-06-11 16:33:05

Muggy,
I grew up there, and still have family there. If they’d lower the damn taxes to New Jersey levels, I’d retire there. Summer is perfect there, low 80s, no humidity. And I remember the old Chippewa, as well as the new Chippewa.
But give me a break…329k in Allentown? That’s what you could pay on Jewett Parkway,or Middlesex, or the Central Park neighborhood near the zoo. Hell, you could buy a place next to a horse farm in East Aurora, and have enough to stable and feed your own horse.
I’m glad things seem to be working for little Susie,but I ain’t buying this story.

 
Comment by Otis Wildflower
2008-06-11 21:51:22

Two words to utter in Buffalo if you ever feel like getting in a fight:

“Wide Right”.

Still gives me some heebies and not a few jeebies as well.

 
Comment by Greg
2008-06-11 23:00:32

No humidity?? What Buffalo did you grow up in? When I grew up in Buffalo, the city still stood right on the junction of the Niagara River and Lake Erie (still does). The humidity in the summer was awful, and no one had A/C, except the extremely wealthy, which was a pretty small percentage of the population in Buffalo.

However, I know a bit about smaller towns with crappy climates, and having lived in some of what are considered more desirable climates (VA, FL, AZ), I now live again in a small town with a brutally cold climate in the winter (central ND).

And you know what makes those places (like Buffalo, like ND) such great places to live? The people. The people who don’t whine just because it isn’t sunny and 70 today. People who makes towns and cities into real communities, where people bend over backwards to get to know you and to help you when you need it. People who don’t need every little amusement ever created to enjoy their time.

I’ll take that over sunny and 70 every time you ask me. I don’t miss all the drugs, crime, illegal immigrants and horrendous traffic accidents from my time in Tucson, even though I enjoyed my time there. And I’ll stay in ND before I every move back to AZ.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-06-11 14:16:16

My wife’s relatives have been held hostage in Buffalo for a few generations, because a rich uncle vowed to disown them if they left the city confines~

And there would be 100 suicides or more among the general populace, if the Bills were to leave…

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Comment by deflationaryjane
2008-06-11 18:22:39

Sort of grew up with Glenn Parker who played for the Bills. Rumor has it he lives in AZ now but I used to run into him in HB all the time when visiting my mom. Last time I saw him was at a 4th of July parade wearing a plastic viking helmet - great and funny guy.

 
 
 
Comment by raven
2008-06-11 15:35:51

And no mention in the article of the high real estate taxes that go along with these “modest” prices.
Last month a good friend there was checking out two properties for sale: First one in Buffalo listed at 289K had yearly taxes of $7,800 and the second, in “upscale” Amherst, choice of more affluent Buffalo commuters listed at 579K and yearly taxes of $25,000 !!,( was confirmed true on local gov’t web site, after I doubted the number).
My friend is still running away as fast as he can.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-06-11 15:55:08

Yeah, with those kind of property taxes, I would never buy.

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Comment by deflationaryjane
2008-06-11 16:49:24

When we started looking at places to relocate, we started by looking at towns with top tier universities outside of the major bubble areas and their pay scales. Next was housing costs, property taxes, and ins.

You can find places with low ins, low prices but then the taxes will eat you alive. Or find low prices and low taxes but the ins will eat you alive. And you really have to do your homework because the base tax rate may be low but there could be eighty bagillion special assessments and parcel fees attached. In CA, it’s not unusual to find a house with a base rate of 1.25 but after Mello Roos and other bonds, it’s twice that or more. I haven’t see 6% yet but with the way the gov coffers are drying up, CA may get there through bonds as a way to get around prop 13.

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Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 18:52:08

The base rate for property tax in CA is 1%. There is also a limit to how high it can go with Mello Roos added. I’m trying to find a link, but I think the max might be 2% or something. Property tax in CA is extremely low and extremely hard to raise. There is also Prop 13, which makes it effectively even lower.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 18:58:54

OK, so I just found out that each Mello Roos district votes it its own maximum. Everything also requires a 2/3 vote, so it’s really innacurate to say that CA has high property taxes.

 
 
 
Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-06-11 18:04:07

Look up HUD homes in Buffalo — plenty to be had for $5,000.

 
Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-06-11 18:10:50

Oops, I misremembered, and prices have tripled! According to this site, there are 3 HUD homes in Erie county for 15-17K.

Buy now or be priced out of the depressing and forlorn cold forever!

http://tinyurl.com/3r4y89

[select Erie county]

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 17:11:02

Ben, we really need an upstate NY hit piece here at HBB. I really can’t stand all of this Buf-Roc-Syr is HOT nonsense.

I have so many housing stories for this region it’s not even funny.

If you guys think denial is thick in NYC/S.F. you should hear a Rochesterian trying to convince me everyone is going to move there for cheap housing and fresh water. They tend to forget things like: everyone already left, all of the houses within city limits are typically full of lead, there is a *LOT* of industrial crap still lingering there etc. I don’t buy that these are the only places that haven’t “destroyed” the middle class.

I love all of these cities, but there is nothing, I mean nothing more depressing than an upstater that never stops talking about how awesome upstate is, but has yet to live anywhere else. It is a great place to live, but it’s not the only place to live.

And no, you won’t escape the bubble be you tried and true Buffalo blue, frum Ratchestuh, pal, or a 315′er.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 17:57:05

“Rochesterian”

Sounds interesting. Muggy must be for real on this. I thought that was the church at 21st and Main. But in afterthought I suppose “21st Rochesterian Church” might not pull in a lot of recruits.

Comment by dc_renter
2008-06-11 19:27:20

I grew up in upstate NY. Fond, fond memories. Everybody speaks English, you had a yard with your house. No traffic - beautiful countryside, amazing summers. And there wasn’t such a diverse class structure - everybody was middle class. Good, decent life. sigh

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-06-11 22:25:56

Lived in Rotten-chester doing a co-op for college at Kodak. The summer was SO fun but I was there in 91 or 92, the year of a huge ice storm. No heat in the winter for a week. Luckily, two days in, friends got there heat back so we crashed there for awhile.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-11 17:59:47

Kodak = Buggy Whip

 
Comment by deflationaryjane
2008-06-11 18:26:21

‘nothing more depressing than an upstater that never stops talking about how awesome upstate is, but has yet to live anywhere else’

That sounds like most Californians and I find them just as sad and depressing >: (

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-11 19:46:17

deflationaryjane,

Don’t be sad, that’s not my experience with the Californians I know. :)

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Comment by Otis Wildflower
2008-06-11 21:54:50

BTW, I seem to recall that Niagara Mohawk water rates were higher than those in Arizona….

Arizona has been in a drought for how long now? And how many great (fresh water) lakes border western NY?

I also seem to recall that 50% of all their municipal water is lost through leakage in the pipes and valves?

Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-06-12 04:40:08

Otis, that’s known as UAW, or Unaccounted for Water, in the hydro biz — it’s their dirty secret that always gets aired in a drought. I’ve heard that typical loss is 10-20%.

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Comment by Muggy
2008-06-11 13:51:56

“If I hadn’t gone out and done all these deals, we’d be in great shape”

I’m still working on that time machine, Mcfly. Stay cool, Daddy-o.

Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 13:58:07

Yeah, that raised quite a flap on the Portland Blog. Of course again Key Bank was mentioned as the Lender Most B@lls Deep In This Mess so I guess we have to start a dead pool entry for them as well.

 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-06-11 14:26:17

Backwardation to the future?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-11 14:54:36

LOL

 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-06-11 15:03:42

“‘If I hadn’t gone out and done all these deals, we’d be in great shape,’ Oringdulph said. ‘It was kind of like, ‘How can this happen?’ It happened. It couldn’t have been worse.’”

BS! This guy was the states fifth largest home builder, 4 decades of building homes. Don’t give us that “how can it happen?” crap! You knew like every other builder you had to pump out those crapboxes, sun up to sud down, seven days a week cause the Scheiss was going to hit the fan.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 15:25:15

I can’t help thinking that home builders need a Plan B for when the demand for houses has been met. Or maybe we don’t need so many home builders.

Comment by Mr. Fester
2008-06-13 14:25:25

Amen!

I am wrapping up a long-term stay from Oregon to Ireland, and I must say the Irish homebuilding industry is becoming a bit more “petite” as well.

I think having fewer builders, realtors, mortgage officers, real estate economist and the like, would make the world just a little better.

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Comment by SFC
2008-06-11 14:08:46

“‘Because of the downturn in the real estate market, we found ourselves in the same situation as other land development companies; the terms of our loans no longer work in today’s environment,’ said Taylor.”

For example, the terms expect us to pay the money back. We strongly disagree with this provision. There’s even something in there about interest ON TOP of this, but we think that may be a joke on the lenders part.

Comment by DinOR
2008-06-11 15:40:47

Oh you mean repay the loan from source OTHER than fluffed up home sales? Not a chance.

Not paying people back is a big part of what makes a “successful” builder!

 
Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 16:30:56

Taylor is a baffoon. The terms of the loan were written on purpose to be enforced in today’s environment, tomorrow’s environment, and any other environment in which the bank may prefer to actually make a profit instead of taking a loss. How does that saying go about making promises that you can’t keep?

Mr. Bubble wrote in yesterday to tell us that a friend of his just got forgiven on their $150k second loan. I hope the devil gets first dibs on that guy.

Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 19:02:09

buffoon

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:10:48

“the terms of our loans no longer work in today’s environment”

Add “-ed” (worked) and you get a great epitaph for a big stone in the housing bubble graveyard.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-06-11 14:09:50

Future of EU treaty lies in hands of Ireland

To take effect, the treaty must be ratified by all 27 states in the European Union. Twenty-six members decided to put the approval process through their legislatures and executives, while one, Ireland, chose to hold a referendum.

In effect, that means that the future government of nearly 500 million Europeans is subject to the vagaries of opinion in a country with just 4.2 million people, or less than 1 percent of the total population in the Union.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/11/europe/union.php
_______________________________________________

Recipe for disaster:

Combine 4.2 million people, with a healthy portion of housing bubble and let it stew until it boils over…

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:12:48

Can you imagine a zillion Irish with a Guinness in each hand, singing, “We’ve got the whole wurreld in our hands…”

 
 
Comment by Gulfstream-sitter
2008-06-11 14:40:41

“…..costly fuel prices did play a role in the couple’s desire to move closer to their jobs……..”

Depending on where their jobs are, and where they move in Olathe, they are trading a 10-15 mile drive on a 4-lane limited access US highway, for a 5-10 mile drive on gridlocked, stop-and-go city streets. Me thinks the gas bill ain’t gonna change much.

Assuming their Louisburg place sells for $200,000, paying a Realtwhore 12 grand to save a little gas money doesn’t seem to be the brightest financial decision ever made.

Once again, I’m guessing there is more to this story than is being reported.

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-11 15:05:21

““Many of the homes in the $700,000 range were purchased in the past two years with subprime loans, and a number of buyers got in over their heads and didn’t have the qualifications of good credit and a stable job”

A $700K subprime loan? to someone who doesn’t have good credit and a stable job? OMFG!

Why isn’t the MSM talking about this in their housing crisis sob stories?

Comment by EggMan
2008-06-11 15:12:26

700K is entry level in San Mateo county.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-11 15:17:15

How much is a tent? Or a lean-to?

 
 
Comment by Lisa
2008-06-11 15:19:07

“A $700K subprime loan? to someone who doesn’t have good credit and a stable job? OMFG!”

Welcome to the Bay Area. No kidding, OMFG is right. $700K is a first-time home purchase for most here. And of course 95% probably can’t really afford it, not over the long haul. I think something like 67% of all mortgages over the last few years are adjustable, so it won’t be pretty here as the resets start to roll in.

Comment by potential buyer
2008-06-11 16:09:50

Yeah it will. I’m lickin’ my lips!

Comment by Neil
2008-06-11 17:02:16

Welcome to the Bay Area. No kidding, OMFG is right. $700K is a first-time home purchase for most here. And of course 95% probably can’t really afford it, not over the long haul. I think something like 67% of all mortgages over the last few years are adjustable, so it won’t be pretty here as the resets start to roll in.

And I thought LA was in bad shape. ;)

Sit back and relax. The next big wave of resets is way off in April. Between now and then its just cleaning out the last wave. But that wave will come. Sellers are getting frustrated.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

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Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 16:35:49

That was the main reason why I wanted to post today. This $700k subprime crap needs to be more highly publicized. I think once the rest of the nation gets a load of those prices, they will be very mad at California and will demand that the Federal government back away from helping us. Anyone who is willing to lend/borrow that much money on a subprime basis does not deserve to live well.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:19:19

“I think once the rest of the nation gets a load of those prices, they will be very mad at California and will demand that the Federal government back away from helping us.”

Big V - I share your outrage, but I’m afraid the politicians who were elected (not by your or me) to their seats in Washington have wigglier spines than rats and that outrage will never cause them to change this abominable subsidy. For all we know, a lot of MSM-paid folks are buying this stuff. When I used to look at TV news of corruption in third-world countries, it never occurred that my own could be headed in the same direction, at increasing speed.

Comment by YuppieNOVARengter
2008-06-11 20:36:33

1984

A Brave New World

Fahrenheit 451

THX 1138

Logan’s Run

We The Living

Der Steppenwolf (Hermann Hesse, not the SF rock band) - or Magister Ludi, or Siddhartha

If I pursued a graduate degree in literature (as perhaps I should have) my thesis would have circulated around the main characters in dystopian literature, propelled by the question “How can we discern whether we live in heaven or hell?”

FFS, Glade potpouri plug-ins are described by Aldous Huxley in A Brave New World. SCENTED PLUGINS!@!!!! The “Department of Defense” that wages wars of aggression is spelled out by George Orwell. Flat sceens and reality TV are explicitly described in Fahrenheit 451. Almost all of these works are drenched in sedative drug use. (If you turn on your TV, you will see a commercial for a sedative within 15 minutes.)

We failed to conquer our weaknesses
-Humanity, an epitaph

You’re afraid that our democratic process failed? You’re afraid that the MSM failed us? Seriously? That’s like being afraid that horseless buggies burn too much fuel. Polar bears are DONE. Whatever happened to the Dutch empire? Right, they turned their economy into pure finance and catastrophy ensued. F@#^% it, Rome burned.

We failed to conquer our weaknesses
-Humanity, an epitaph

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Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-06-11 15:23:49

“LandSource did not rule out the possibility of being sold. The company’s assets include 15,000 acres of undeveloped land north of Los Angeles. Ventura County Supervisor Kathy Long, whose district borders the development in Los Angeles County, has her doubts that the development will advance.”
_________________________________________________

Calpers went and invested my pension, but all I got was a raw deal…

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-11 16:41:08

Whew, made it home. BTW, I’ll forward the OTR threads tonight and have a wrap up at the end of the last one.

Comment by palmetto
2008-06-11 16:54:29

Welcome home, Ben. Road trips can be fun and interesting, but getting home is always a relief.

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-11 16:57:14

Welcome home! Kick back, have a cold one, then get after that rogue server that’s been acting up ever since you left (whoops, wasn’t supposed to tell, now it’ll eat ALL of my posts). :)

 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:21:42

Ben - I’m awed that you kept the blog going throughout. Kudos cubed.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 19:07:54

Gee, Ben, you must be tired. I hate road trips. You should go to a resort or something in your home town to make up for it.

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-11 16:50:13

Bet your glad to be back in your own bed Ben.

It was great seeing you on Monday.

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:22:41

I hope the National Enquirer doesn’t read this one!

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-11 19:42:22

Now Chip,

My mom has a saying: Get your mind out of gutter and above the belt. ;)

 
 
 
Comment by Neil
2008-06-11 17:03:54

Off thread, but relavent.

When do you think the first big gas price protest will occur here in the US? I’m thinking in July. Where? LA/Long Beach Harbor by the truckers.

I’m not expecting June sales tax revenue to meet projections… ;)

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by Marcus
2008-06-11 17:18:32

Saw an article about a church group doing a pray-down at a DC gas station this past weekend. I’ll try to find it and post here.

Comment by Marcus
2008-06-11 17:21:20

Here it is:

“In Washington, D.C., it reached the point where members of a Seventh Day Adventist Church conducted a “pray-down” at a gas station near their church, supplicating for lower gas prices.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08161/888515-85.stm

Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-11 18:09:04

Can I get a Hallelujah to lower the cost of hi-test?

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Comment by YuppieNOVARenter
2008-06-11 20:45:35

OMFG I am so F-ing tired of irony in the news.

The same “conservatives” who vote for the radically liberal expansion of federal powers to regulate sexuality and what people choose to ingest (drugs, etc.) and railing against the evils of socialism (such as universal healthcare and unions) are F-ing praying for God Almighty to intervene and corrupt the pure market forces that drive the price of gasoline.

I am so F-ing tired of irony.

I don’t even support universal healthcare, but Hay-seuss F-ing criste PICK AN IDEOLOGY AND STICK WITH IT.

As God as my witness I support $25 a gallon gasoline in the US. Nothing like a little free market honesty to reveal some truth in politics.

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Comment by Big V
2008-06-11 19:12:46

Hey, God:

Look. Why don’t you just tell those Chinee to go Phuk themselves? We here in America are better Christians than they are, and we can prove it by doing a pray down. So when you sit down and start planning your next natural disaster, just go ahead and make it in China and wipe them out big time to make the gas prices cheaper for us, will ya?

Thanks,
DC Churc Group

 
 
 
Comment by lostcontrol
2008-06-11 17:24:15

For all the experts out there, in opportunity to debate your facts and opinions about the economy-

Thursday June 12th 2008

Severe contest: The Economist Debate Series The Economist invites you to participate in Oxford-style debates

Since its inception The Economist has challenged readers to engage with the world’s business, political, scientific, technological and cultural affairs and uncover the connections between them.

We now challenge you to bring your knowledge to the floor of our online Oxford-style debates. Your participation shapes the contest and your votes decide the winner.

http://www.economist.com/debate/

Comment by Chip
2008-06-11 18:29:35

Great link. Thanks. A worthy “endeavour.”

 
 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-06-11 17:54:52

Since this thread has been talking about gas prices, here is something that could become a problem if we all switch to small cars:

http://tinyurl.com/4gsgaa

This is really pretty funny. Leave it to the French. :)

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-06-11 20:06:12

That was too funny Lost.

 
 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-06-11 18:06:23

Spotting a for-sale sign outside a multicolored ‘painted lady,’ Lenahan — among the area’s best-known real estate agents — nods and smiles. ‘It’s going for $329,000,” she says. ‘Five years ago, it would have been $100,000 less.’”

Susie… It’s not going for $329,000. It’s not going.

 
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