June 16, 2008

Need Doesn’t Change Value In Florida

The News Journal reports from Florida. “The glut of unsold real estate on the local market has begun to shrink, but that doesn’t mean more houses are getting sold. The inventory of homes, condominiums, businesses and lots being marketed by agents in Volusia and Flagler counties hit a record 9,541 listings last November but since then it has started to decline gradually, falling to 8,544 by April, the most recent tally available.”

“Since Jan. 1, the number of area properties getting sold by agents has averaged 237 a month…below last year’s depressed rate of 280 sales a month. At the same time, hundreds of listings expire each month after having languished unsold for three to six months. Hundreds of others simply are taken off the market as owners change their minds about trying to sell, according to MLS statistics.”

“Yet more than 1,000 fresh properties continue to be added to the Realtors’ database each month. What’s fueling the new business? Some Realtors say the additions reflect the growing number of homeowners who are in trouble with their mortgages.”

“Nearly 1,000 area owners were served notices during April that they were in danger of foreclosure, and 200 of those were near the point of facing eviction, according to RealtyTrac.”

“Very few sellers still cling to hope they’ll get an offer close to the asking prices that prevailed in 2005, said Bob Millward, co-owner of the RE/MAX All Pro Realty agency in Port Orange.”

“‘It took a little while for sellers to get realistic with their prices, but we’re finally there,’ Millward said.”

The Sun Sentinel. “Setting the right price for a home sounds simple, but too many sellers aren’t doing it. They insist that their properties are special and holding value, even though the median prices for existing homes have plummeted 26 percent and 24 percent, respectively, in Palm Beach and Broward counties since late 2005.”

“Olga and Manuel Delacruz listed their three-bedroom home in central Palm Beach County for $199,000 about four months ago. When it didn’t sell, they dropped the price twice. Now they’re asking $169,999, which is where they probably should have started, their agent, Douglas Rill, said.”

“The Delacruzes and other owners of lower-priced homes are likely competing with an increasing number of foreclosures. Lenders don’t want to hold these properties, so they’re slashing prices. Individual sellers must do the same if they have any hope of finding buyers.”

“‘It’s a little frustrating,’ said Olga Delacruz. ‘If we have to lower it one more time, we will.’”

“Many sellers asking too much for their homes now are doing so because they paid inflated prices during the housing boom of 2000 to 2005. Agents cringe when they hear clients say they have to get a certain amount of money out of their properties.”

“‘Your need doesn’t change the market value of the house,’ said Rill of Century 21 America’s Choice Realty in West Palm Beach. ‘Sellers will say, ‘Can you at least try it at this price?’ I’m happy to try, but it’s not going to work.’”

“Terry Story, (an) agent in Palm Beach and Broward counties wanted to list a Boca Raton home last summer for $575,000, but her client held firm at $625,000. Meanwhile, a similar house across the street was priced more competitively from the start and sold quickly for $482,500. Story’s seller could do nothing but cut his price, finally finding a buyer to pay $460,000 after six frustrating months.”

“‘He chased down the market,” said Story .”

“Virginia Goss first tried to sell her Boca Raton house on her own, but had no luck. So she listed it with Story, who suggested she put it on the market in the low $300,000 range. Although that was much lower than she preferred, Goss listened and immediately sold the home, albeit at a loss.”

“‘It’s hard to swallow a loss, but we’re moving on,’ Goss said. ‘There’s value in that.’”

The Miami Herald. “The Meruelo family spent nearly four decades building a real estate empire stretching from California to Florida. But…the Meruelo-owned companies now face mounting financial problems and a stack of lawsuits.”

“‘Like so many of the developers in Miami, the Merco Group rode the crest of the wave and was highly successful,’ said Jack McCabe, CEO of McCabe Research & Consulting. ‘Like many others, they were overly aggressive in pursuing too many projects.’”

“One of the costliest problems is the Palladio Terrace project. While Eastern Financial Florida Credit Union has won the right to auction the 4.5-acre waterfront property next month, several dozen condo purchasers are still fighting the Merco Group of the Palm Beaches for allegedly failing to return one of their two deposits after the project was canceled.”

“One Palladio buyer, Greg Pill, said he drove around West Palm Beach three years ago and liked the proposed project and site so much he signed up to buy one town house to live in and another as an investment.”

“‘I wish I would have checked out Merco more,’ said Pilla, a resident of Redwood Shores, Calif. ‘There has been a grand injustice perpetrated. They made a deal and didn’t stand by the deal they made.’”

The Calgary Herald. “The sub-prime market fallout has hit Florida hard, but that hasn’t stopped one Calgary-based company that has a project in St. Petersburg. It’s been less than a month since the Lucid Group of Companies first announced it was selling 240 condo units in St. Petersburg at bargain prices, says a news release.”

“With prices starting at $70 per square foot, nearly 70 per cent of the Sunrise Palms development has already sold, primarily to Calgary and Edmonton buyers, it says.”

“‘Buyers are telling us they know it’s a great deal and they are confident that it is just a matter of time before the housing market rebounds in the holiday and retirement community of St. Petersburg. Long-term, they believe it’s a great real estate and lifestyle investment,’ says Adam Drybrough, a partner with the Lucid Group of Companies, in the news release.”

The Bradenton Herald. “The housing foreclosure fallout carries a very real price tag for all of Manatee County. The court system’s backlog of foreclosure cases has tripled in the past year.”

“Home values in some neighborhoods have dropped 30 percent or more as a result of the foreclosures and the real estate downturn. And residents are struggling to preserve the character of their neighborhoods as more homeowners are evicted or walk away from homes that are worth less than they owe.”

“‘It’s actually going to drive the values down on even the homes that aren’t distressed,’ said Bill Kersey, director of appraisal services with Manatee County Property Appraiser’s office. ‘Any sale that occurs now tends to be distressed. Even though it’s not a foreclosure sale, it’s a distressed market. If you want to sell it, you’re going to get a lot less for it than you did two years ago. And what this does is drive all of the values in the neighborhood down.’”

“”Already in the first six months of 2008, there have been more than 2,300 cases filed - nearly as many as during all of 2007.”

“‘It’s never been like this,’ said Manatee Circuit Court Judge Paul Logan. ‘I haven’t seen any signs that it’s getting better. In fact, I’ve talked to a few local attorneys who represent lenders and I’ve said, ‘Hopefully we’ve seen the entirety of the problem.’ But all of them have told me we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg.’”

“‘At this point there is just an incredible amount of bank foreclosures, which is absolutely affecting the homeowners associations’ ability to collect their assessments,’ said Kevin Edwards of (a) firm in Sarasota, which represents about 400 neighborhood and condo associations in Manatee and Sarasota counties.”

“‘It’s more of a problem I think in condos,’ he said. ‘Most of them were investors who bought these condo units or, in some cases, single-family homes when the market was at its peak and the bank was giving them these no-money down or low-money down loans. These people were counting on flipping them for a profit, and that didn’t occur.’”

“‘A lot of times, they’re not going to get that money back,’ Edwards said. ‘We have cases in condos where the owners have abandoned their units and we’ve had to, as associations, go back in and turn the electricity on to prevent mold growing in those units. And the association is stuck with that bill and the other unit owners are having to pay for it (through increased assessments). It’s pretty bad.’”

The Herald Tribune. “The overall trend in the market for vacant land continues to be downward with respect to price and the number of closings.”

“‘There are a lot of buyers and a lot of sellers out there, but they’re miles apart in their philosophy at the moment,’ said Stan Rutstein, an agent in Bradenton. ‘Buyers are evaluating land values with a microscope, while sellers, who either got in too high or are too leveraged, are operating with unrealistic expectations.’”

“‘How many thousands of vacant residential lots are out there that we don’t have buyers for?’ asked John Stephens, an undeveloped land specialist in Palmetto. ‘Until those lots are absorbed, there won’t be any demand for raw land.’”

“Manatee County property appraiser statistics show that falling demand for empty land is having an impact on prices. Where land was selling for an average of $78,210 per acre in 2006, the average price for the 17 deals that have closed this year is just $25,182 per acre — a level not seen since 2004.”

“Carlos Beruff, a longtime Southwest Florida builder and developer, bought 47 acres for $1.1 million, or $23,787 per acre, in December, according to property appraiser records. That price was 74 percent less than the $4.2 million, or $89,362 per acre, that Kimball Hill Homes paid for the South Manatee property in April 2005.”

The Naples News. “Last month, troubled homebuilder WCI Communities Inc. sold its high-end, Italian-inspired Tuscany Reserve community to foreign investors for $65 million.”

“But it’s still in a legal battle to keep a $1 million deposit from other investors that contracted to buy the 470-acre golf course community in North Naples last year and never did because of disagreements over the terms of the sale, including the price.”

“‘We showed up on Dec. 24. We had all the documents that were required and we were ready to go, and they just simply didn’t show up,’ said Thomas Roehn, a Tampa attorney who represents WCI.”

“WCI designed Tuscany Reserve as its most exclusive golf course haven and expected to sell a limited number of homes for $2 million to $5 million, with golf membership in the range of $200,000. But it never really took off.”

“In the past year, WCI has repositioned the community, offering homes for less than $1 million. It’s permitted for 530 homes and only about 30 have been built.”

The News Press. “Southwest Florida’s real estate crash has left a record amount of garbage at abandoned construction sites and empty street lots, according to the Lee County Solid Waste Division.”

“The county has picked up 140 tons of refuse since April from commercial or home project sites where construction was halted, an unprecedented statistic.”

“‘Nobody abandons construction sites, but that’s what we have now,’ said Brigitte Kantor, solid waste coordinator for the county. ‘We normally have hardly any of those.’”

“The county also has seen a tremendous spike in the number of illegal dumpings, usually discarded belongings such as furniture left on empty street lots. Despite the escalating number of illegal dump sites, the department will propose a $59 million operating budget for the coming fiscal year, about the same as last year, said Lindsey Sampson director of Waste Division.”

“That’s because even a foreclosed home is subject to Waste Division taxes. ‘We have more empty houses sitting out there and empty houses have to pay too,’ Sampson said.”

“Real estate investors turned off by the housing market have another option under construction in south Fort Myers. Two storage condominium projects are underway near Southwest Florida International Airport.”

“The storage condos are on sale and offer storage options for those with boats, motor homes or large car collections that won’t fit in their homes or in traditional storage facilities. Construction started June 4 on the first phase.”

“John Allen, president of The Treasure Chest, said potential owners plan to use the condos to store large motor homes, boats and furniture collections.”

“‘It doesn’t make a lot of sense to keep renting,’ he said. ‘It makes a good investment in real estate.’”




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72 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-16 06:43:35

‘Where land was selling for an average of $78,210 per acre in 2006, the average price for the 17 deals that have closed this year is just $25,182 per acre — a level not seen since 2004.’

What’s amazing about this is that 2004 was a year that prices had already taken off. What was this land selling for pre-bubble? Anyway, two-thirds off is a start.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-16 07:03:42

The run-up seemed to affect land values more than buildings. At least structures can be improved. Nothing you can do to land (not even stubbing, re-platting and landscaping) would justify a doubling==>quadrupling of the price in just 4 years.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-16 09:05:43

Speculation is always fiercest in the assets which are cheapest and/or have the least “carry costs”.

Comment by Ed G
2008-06-16 11:17:48

You’re right. That’s why people go ga-ga over penny stocks. Look at how many shares I can buy!

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Comment by reuven
2008-06-16 13:32:09

I’m not sure this is always true. Don’t forget people were trying to buy houses at the peak!

I was at a big Silicon Valley company from its beginning in the 80s ’til 1998, so I get a lot of people asking me about high-tech stocks.

I’m amazed how many people will ask me, when Apple is trading at $197, or Google at $564 if they should buy it. I always tell them that while I can’t be sure they won’t be worth 2x that in a year, I personally wouldn’t bet on it. And they won’t listen if I try to explain that they’d have a better chance hitting a home run with some beat-down low P-E stock without a lot of debt, or buy Ford at 6.5 if you want to bet it’ll be bought, etc.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-16 15:16:29

Most humans are momentum traders whether it’s stocks or houses. They follow the leader.

The ability to go against the grain is very very hard. Because it is emotionally impossible to bear. We were not designed that way psychologically.

Your statements have absolutely no bearing on what I said.

To qualify my statement, your pals in SV are momentum trading.

Within this momentum trade, they will always prefer assets that are “cheap”, have low money-down (leverage), and have the least “carrying costs”.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 08:06:22

Just from a local look, land in the acreage here was running as much as $250,000 for a standard 1.25 acre parcel. Today a house on that land is selling for as little as $175,000 in reasonable condition. You can buy the lot for $99,000 pretty easily today. In the late 1990’s, the lots were going as low as $25,000 and as high as $50,000 depending on location. I think we’ve still got a ways to go.

 
Comment by CrackerJim
2008-06-16 08:41:09

I own an 18 acre rural lakefront property that I purchased in 1998 for $9,500/acre. During the peak (late 2004), I was offered $50k/acre and (like a dummy) I turned it down. I was planning to build a home and wasn’t planning to sell. I no longer want to live there and the property is on the market and listed for $28.5k/acre. It has been listed for about 2 months; no offers.
BTW, Manatee County (Fl) thinks the property is worth $559,036 ($30.8k/acre, current assessment).

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-06-16 11:01:15

Jim - Sounds like your listing is based on assessment. I would be surprised if you can sell this property. Unfortunately, such tracts as yours are not readily convertible into cash even at knockdown prices most of the time, something that seems to have been forgotten over the past 10 years. Good luck.

Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-06-16 16:42:11

I’ve got some oceanfront property in Ar-i-zon-a

From my front porch you can see the sea…

If you’ll buy that I’ll throw the Golden Gate in free…

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Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-06-16 09:27:52

Prior to this ridiculous “boom”, land prices in outer Manatee County has reached levels of about $10,000-15,000 per acre. I many areas of Florida, $5000-$10,000 per acre was pretty easy to get (rural counties that got bought up for suburban sprawl.).

As I once posted, the Cape Coral land in Lee County further south was originally part of the Florida Land boom of 1926. The lots that recently sold for up to $80,000 were on the market for decades for $2000-$4000. No one wanted them as they were in the middle of nowhere.

The whole area is a joke. Complete manic insanity.
I would expect prices for acreage to hover around $15,000 per acre for rural parcels. No more.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-06-16 11:06:42

Houses can generally be marked down and sold at some price, even today. Undeveloped rural land is not a liquid asset except in unusual circumstances (such as 2002-2005), is not mortgageable, and as such has almost no cash value.

Comment by CrackerJim
2008-06-16 12:16:26

Well I certainly am not going to give my property away!

That was sarcasm BTW.

I don’t have to sell, it just would fit my frame of mind better right now. It reminds me of the ex-wife that I was planning to live in the house; of course the monthly extortion checks keeps us in contact.

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Comment by stanislaw
2008-06-16 06:47:05

Speaking of Florida, a couple of years ago, my wife and I who are pilots rented a cessna at the Venice FL airport. We did a little bit of sight seeing from there air and flew down the west coast for about an hour. I remember seeing Northport FL and was amazed at all the empty lots we could see from the air where there are paved roads with cul de sacs and no houses built . You could see for yourself by looking on google maps and turning on the satellite view.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=27.063024,-82.074995&spn=0.040051,0.078878&t=k&z=14

I came away with the impression that they are “not making land anymore” only because there is no reason in the world to do it.

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-16 07:00:07

WOW, A+

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-06-16 07:34:21

Cape Coral has similar “developments.” Grids of paved streets with no houses. Some of those “developments” date back to the 60’s.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 08:08:10

Cape Coral has similar “developments.”

Those developments litter Florida. It was always too easy to dream up these little communities. The problem was finding buyers.

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-16 07:00:31

My wife & I rent a plane occasionally in the Central Valley of California, and it’s the same story…

The failed housing projects just leap out at you, one after another.

 
Comment by FORTMYERS ENGINEER
2008-06-16 07:30:23

What you are refering to is a product of the 1970’s company called the General Development Corporation. They sold the land all over the world to anyone with a $1,000. It was total urban sprawl and should have been illegal. No one knows who actually owns the property. Very shady, I am sure it involved wise guys.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A05E3DD1E39F934A25757C0A960958260

 
Comment by exsocalguy
2008-06-16 07:37:47

This is the modern day’s equivalent to Nazca lines.

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2008-06-16 06:57:19

More Snaith!

http://blogs.tampabay.com/realestate/2008/06/economist-predi.html

Witches brew! I love this guy.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-16 07:05:12

Oh, Canada?

“The sub-prime market fallout has hit Florida hard, but that hasn’t stopped one Calgary-based company that has a project in St. Petersburg. It’s been less than a month since the Lucid Group of Companies first announced it was selling 240 condo units in St. Petersburg at bargain prices, says a news release.”

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-16 07:17:43

Always bringing their Eh game!

Comment by Blano
2008-06-16 07:54:58

LOLOL !!!!

 
 
Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-06-16 16:53:21

Silent Lucidity

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-06-16 19:37:53

Great song! (Silent Lucidity, by Queensryche).

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 19:41:49

Look at their Website:

http://www.beautifulfla.com/

Notice the phrase, “…collect a guaranteed monthly rental income…”

 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-16 07:09:18

Agents cringe when they hear clients say they have to get a certain amount of money out of their properties.”

“‘Your need doesn’t change the market value of the house,’ said Rill of Century 21 America’s Choice Realty in West Palm Beach. ‘Sellers will say, ‘Can you at least try it at this price?’ I’m happy to try, but it’s not going to work.’”

It’s hard to kiss your money ‘goodbye’, but that’s what you did when you HELOCed it to go to Hawaii.

Comment by JoJo
2008-06-16 08:46:47

Yeah, I’ve never understood the mentality of the sellers who apparently think that I should pay an extra $100,000 for a house because they extracted the equity. Why exactly should I pay for their hummer, vacations, boob-job and jumbotron TV?

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-06-16 09:36:15

……….Because some Realtor ™ sold it to them and said it was their best investment. It would return 20-30% per year indefinitely, so they should “Buy” the MOST expensive place that a sub-prime, neg-am mortgage could get them, then count the money rolling in.

Don’t you recall all the Realtor stories of the past few years? Have you forgotten David Lereah’s Books about the BOOM that wouldn’t bust?

Wake up. Don’t forget these same scumbags that are trying to unload these properties for some commission money were the same cheerleaders who were telling us that “real estate is different”, it’s you path the endless riches, so buy today and flip later.

 
Comment by Ann
2008-06-16 10:45:34

That is the big problem right now when they keep talking about how sellers just “won’t” lower the prices of their homes enough for buyers..

These sellers have put themselves into a position. First, they equity line the heck out of the homes for stupid stuff and they now want to get that money back on top of a “profit” on the house…hello sellers..you already took your money out of the property..the well is dry..

Second, the free and easy days of 100%, 95% financing is gone..now you need skin in the game..and if these sellers want to buy another home..where are they going to get the $$ for the next house???

Basically..they screwed themselves for a hummer, a rolex and other stupid stuff..

 
 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 07:18:34

I’m actually going to share a story of house shopping with my parents over the weekend. They’re relocating and not patient people, so I’m stuck with helping them not catch a knife.

The only homes that I would let them go see were bank foreclosures (not short sales) or homes that are still owned but priced in the lat 1990’s era.

First of all, there was no shortage of homes to be seen. That should send warning signals to anyone even thinking of catching a falling knife. The homes ranged in condition from war zone like to nearly perfect.

Finally, they decided on a home that’s last sale was September of 2005 for $329,000. The purchase price? $140,000 right here in Palm Beach County.

Comment by Poorman Cometh
2008-06-16 07:43:41

Ohhh, that is going to leave a mark.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 08:03:35

“…that is going to leave a mark.”

It’s what a 3BR/2BA/2CG/Den home should have cost all along. People went insane here!

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-06-16 08:22:39

Andy:

Its just like saying Amazon is worth $80 a share today but for a brief wild speculative binge it was “worth” $500.125 at its peak!

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Comment by michael f
2008-06-16 08:20:41

can you find a decent house in PGA National for under $150,000?

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 08:39:47

“can you find a decent house in PGA National for under $150,000?”

NO…homes in PGA National weren’t $150K before the boom. You can buy a condo for that though. For a single family you can expect to pay $300,000 to start. Remember the peak prices were $650K for a 2BR/2BA. Prior to that people were paying well over $200,000 for homes thate weren’t very nice (in my opinion).

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 19:50:50

Andy - bit late for this post - and I don’t know if it’s true in PBC, but this quote from the Bradenton Herald link drives me nuts:

“We’re essentially a year behind the market in what we use for assessments,” Hackney said. “We have people coming in and saying, ‘There’s a house across the street listed for less than what mine’s assessed for.’ We know that the market’s depressed. We know that the market is coming down. Until we have market activity, there is nothing we can do about this.”

Yeah, there is a LOT you can do about it, Hackney! Use the most recent selling prices. Those ARE the market prices. It IS market activity. And if your county commission has a “rule” on the books that says you aren’t supposed to county foreclosures or shorts or REOs, then get them to change it or I want you out of your job! These Florida assessors are hiding behind the scam of “Distressed sales don’t count.” I hope they’re all up for election and that they all get voted out. You can’t solve the Florida property tax problem when you are part of the problem.

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-06-16 07:23:22

Not really on topic to anything in these stories, but I drove around south Tampa yesterday looking for a house to rent and was horrified at some of the “custom” building that still is going on. I saw about a dozen houses being built. The smallest must have been at least 3,000 square feet, and several of the larger ones looked as if they would contain 20+ rooms when finished. The architecture, without exception, was the perfect “cheap grandiose” 21st century American style — what ever happened to the impulse to build something beautiful? Who is supposed to be impressed by these?

It is at times like this that I feel tremendously alienated from what our nation has become.

I also drove past a modest house I had inquired about three months ago. The owner, after I had told him what my wife and I were willing to pay in rent for his 3/2, had smirked and said “not in this neighborhood.” He is an executive in a local homebuilding company. The house remains unoccupied.

Comment by rusty
2008-06-16 10:04:49

What part of Tampa were you looking at? We are looking in Lutz for the moment, but face the same backlash. What we are willing to pay doesn’t fly, yet seems every 5th house is in foreclosure in some areas. (Heritage Harbor for example)

Comment by snake charmer
2008-06-16 13:37:42

The area bounded by Bay-to-Bay, Dale Mabry, Gandy, and Bayshore Boulevard.

 
Comment by BillinTampa
2008-06-16 17:10:48

Rusty,

I rent in Lutz, Cheval, and have been for over 2 years. Let me know what you find.

Bill

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-06-17 08:51:22

Rusty:

I also looked at Heritage Harbor as I used to live in that area. It has had a significant decline in value and there are many foreclosuresin that area. The CDD and HOA fees are a significant add on to a loan cost.

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 20:00:20

It might make sense to make up a simple spreadsheet that shows for every $100 the owner doesn’t take in reduction, how many months of occupancy it will take to make that up, and to hand it to the landlord or agent when discussing the different rents you both have in mind.

I once offered to rent from a fool who wouldn’t agree to the fixups I wanted that would have cost him less than a month’s rent. The property then sat vacant for two years before renting for 70% of what I had offered. He will NEVER, EVER recover what he lost by not taking my offer and thus having his place remain vacant that long.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-06-16 07:32:07

Here’s the current U Haul index. A 26 foot truck picked up on 7/22 will cost the following for a one-way move.

Sarasota to Raleigh: $1697
Raleigh to Sarasota: $710

The ratio is a little over 2:1. That’s a LOT lower than it has been in the past between those two cities. I’ve seen it as high as 7:1. But the net migration still appears to be out of Florida.

Does anyone have numbers for public school enrollments this past year vs. the prior year?

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 07:37:10

Bill,

Enrollment in Palm Beach County has been pretty flat year over year. They were initially reporting upwards of a 10,000 student decline only to recant those statements. We’re not seeing any increases in student population, but decreases are quite slow. My observations are that there are a few reasons for that:

1) House prices have declined to an affordable level for families in a lot of cases. Those thinking about leaving haven’t left.

2) House prices have declined to a level where many people who want to leave can’t.

3) Population at the private schools is begining to show signs of going down due to an overall damaged economy due to…lower house prices.

Comment by Ed G
2008-06-16 11:30:51

I do contract work for a company out of Florida. When I went in 2006 to train them on a system I delivered, I realized that not a single person I met (probably met 100+ people) had actually grown up in Florida. All of them were transplants. It seemed foreign to Floridians to have lived there all their lives. To me, it sounds like people who grow up there want to get the eff out, and people who are there now are transplants from somewhere else.

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 20:03:31

Bill - in Orange County, I think about 650 teacher positions have to be reduced from this past school year to the next. They will take a lot of that by dropping the retired teachers who had been hired back, but it could give them an imbalance in specialties, such as a shortage of math teachers.

 
 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-06-16 07:52:01

“Real estate investors turned off by the housing market have another option under construction in south Fort Myers. Two storage condominium projects are underway near Southwest Florida International Airport.”

How to consolidate debt: First invest in a depreciating asset, and then stuff it full of your other depreciating assets..

 
Comment by Blano
2008-06-16 08:01:01

“The storage condos sheds are on sale and offer storage options for those with boats, motor homes or large car collections that won’t fit in their homes or in traditional storage facilities sheds.”

“It doesn’t make a lot of sense to keep renting,’ he said. ‘It makes a good investment in real estate sheds.”

Again, I must suck as a businessman. I just don’t see it.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-06-16 08:24:02

it’s simple.. why have dinner in a restaurant whenever you feel like it when you could buy the restaurant?? Get it? sheesh..

They aren’t making anymore sheds (after this batch), so buy now or be .. be.. priced.. be priced.. :barf

 
Comment by reuven
2008-06-16 13:18:20

I scratch my head over this too! How could anyone think this was a “good investment?” Considering that you can put storage facilities in otherwise unwanted places (like under a runway approach), I don’t think they’re running out of room for these.

Before the bust, I could see selling these, though. You want a “real estate” investment that somone who could only cough up 20K of credit could qualify for.

One of my consulting clients (a big company) has a time share division. Now, when I first heard about time shares, years ago, I realized that this must be a phenomenal business for the people selling the time shares. When I saw the actual numbers, it was even more profitable than I ever imagined.

Selling storage condos is a very similar business. Since the purchase amounts are relatively small, and since you won’t have to be state licensed as a “mortgage broker” to sell them (I’m presuming…) the builder/developer can “finance.” Any missed payments or missed maintenance fees, the developer simply repossesses and sells it again!

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-16 08:39:23

From the original post:

The Sun Sentinel. “Setting the right price for a home sounds simple, but too many sellers aren’t doing it. They insist that their properties are special and holding value, even though the median prices for existing homes have plummeted 26 percent and 24 percent, respectively, in Palm Beach and Broward counties since late 2005.”

Boy, does this mirror what I saw yesterday morning. I was out on my bike, running errands, and all I’ve gotta say is, boy, the wishing prices are still alive and well in Tucson.

I was feeling so evil that I took a flyer from every “for sale” sign that offered one. I plan on hanging on to this flyer collection so I can check to see what these oh-so-special properties actually sell for. If they sell at all.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 08:47:32

“If they sell at all.”

There’s your key. Most people are starting to come around if they really need to sell. Those that don’t have wish prices that they’ll never ever get.

Where my parents are buying, the home across the street is listed at $254,900. They’re buying for $140,000. The difference? They’re buying from the bank, the house across the street is owned by a bagholder who bought in 2004 and still thinks he can turn the house for a profit.

Comment by still not time
2008-06-16 09:24:22

Bad Andy, Is this puchase in a newer subdivision or older one? Reason I ask is I’m looking in Parrish and while prices have come down a lot I’m still concerned over the neighborhood being there when this finally shakes out, If the homes don’t get bulldozed what kind of people might be living there later, think subsidised.

Comment by still not time
2008-06-16 09:25:23

Whoops, subsidized.

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Comment by Bad Andy
2008-06-16 10:08:47

The subdivision is late 1980’s/early 1990’s. The VAST majority of owners are still original. Very nice community. I don’t worry about it today or even 10 years from now. My biggest concern for that neighborhood is when the original owners start to die off.

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Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 20:16:42

Still - this is just hearsay from a relative who lives in that area (I’m in Orl.) - be careful about buying in Parrish. There is so much for sale there that some areas could become ghost towns like the ones described in the CNN article link elsewhere in today’s posts.

If you can get a lease-purchase option where the option is free - you pay regular market rent but get an option to buy the house during the lease period for the same price as you’d be willing to pay today - it would be worth evaluating, IMO.

There’s down, and there’s way-far-down. I wouldn’t want to buy into the latter. That’s why, in many areas, many see renting as the best choice for at least another few years.

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Comment by WantsOut
2008-06-16 11:24:40

I’m seeing more and more “This listing is no longer available”.

 
 
 
Comment by His LordShip
2008-06-16 09:41:37

“Virginia Goss first tried to sell her Boca Raton house on her own, but had no luck. So she listed it with Story, who suggested she put it on the market in the low $300,000 range. Although that was much lower than she preferred, Goss listened and immediately sold the home, albeit at a loss. It’s hard to swallow a loss, but we’re moving on,’ Goss said. ‘There’s value in that.’”

WELL!! According to Palm Beach County records, Mrs. Goss, purchased that place in 12/’05 for $441,000, from the previous owner, who flipped from $226,000, in 3/’02….Seems Mrs. Goss sold it at a “”" VALUABLE”" loss of $141,000….

I say, it just depends on which side of the balance sheet your values are!!!!!!

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-16 10:34:38

She almost definitely HELOCed it for the difference. Not to mention that her retirement money, credit cards, and kid’s college money are probably wrapped up in that house as well.

Comment by reuven
2008-06-16 13:20:57

I wouldn’t pick on Miss Goss! She appears to be taking her lumps and moving on! Good for her, in fact.

Comment by His LordShip
2008-06-16 16:16:17

You’re right rueven; She took the short loss of of $141,000, rather than the big loss [$215K] of prices reverting back to 2002 [$226,000]….She’s counting her blessings….just getting somebody to buy her place….
She’s moving on; just a little bit lighter of funds!!!!

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Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-06-16 10:32:14

While driving by a new development near hear, I saw a sign at the entrance bragging about how they have an up-to-date 50K SQ clubhouse. The sign was honest, because plopped in the middle of the development was the clubhouse. The only problem, though, was that the clubhouse was the only structure in the development. The rest of the development consisted of empty lots and ten zillion of For Sale signs!

 
Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-06-16 10:33:50

hear = here

 
Comment by Pete
2008-06-16 10:55:18

“Storage condos” are an even worse idea than office condos. They make no financial sense whatsoever. Besides, most people rent storage units on a short-term basis anyway, and have no desire to “own” it. Only in a bubble…

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-06-16 11:02:36

Muggy:

Here is my resonse to the sptimes blog site regarding the snaith predictions.

The housing boom was so extreme.
I would agree on his first point as the last major boom in Florida was the 1925-26 period.
2. Real estate won’t return to positive territory until 2010.
I do not see any positive return until much later than 2010 based on economic conditions, job creation and inventory being worked down. Look back and study the S&L crisis that had a lessor impact than this bubble and you will quickly determine it took much longer.
3. Snaith dubbed our energy/credit/housing problems a “witches brew in our economy” that’s toxic to economic growth.
I agree and the after effects may last for some time, impacting economic growth.
4. He predicted economic growth would rise artificially
I would agree to a point, but the stimulus package won’t have much of an impact as many consumers are drowning in debt. I see 2010 as more of a recovery period than late 2009 as the damage done will take some time to clean up.
5.Tampa and Orlando will outperform the rest of the state.
The number of jobs, high paying I.T., accounting, etc. jobs have or are in the process of being sent offshore and out of state and won’t return. Both areas will grow in lower paying service jobs that won’t do much to improve the local economic conditions.
In fact, the Tampa Bay area is being hit hard by these types of job reductions.

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-16 16:19:52

Re#5

Is the I-4 corridor the horn of plenty? Who’s out there?

 
 
Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-06-16 16:50:12

No the I-4 is the Plenty of Horn when you get stuck in Disney traffic…

Comment by Muggy
2008-06-16 17:42:16

L-M-F-A-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Comment by Chip
2008-06-16 20:20:44

“the Plenty of Horn”

LOL - good one.

 
 
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