This Market Is Unique
A report from New Jersey Biz. “Homeowners in the state facing mortgage foreclosures are heading in droves to law firms, state agencies and nonprofits for advice on how to save their homes or buy time before they hand over their keys. Glenn Reiser, a partner in (a) law firm in Hackensack, says he is seeing ‘a tremendous increase’ in the number of distressed homeowners calling in for what his trade calls ‘foreclosure mitigation services.’”
“Reiser says the firm has been getting three to five such inquiries a week since March, compared with one or two a week in January and February.”
“Reiser says foreclosures are now hitting people across the income spectrum. ‘Typically, the average person facing a foreclosure is one who has a hard-luck story or somebody who has lost a job, got sick or has had a divorce,’ he says. ‘But the type of client coming to us now is one I have never seen before-a two-income family earning in excess of $100,000 annually and with an extremely high mortgage debt service.’”
“Reiser says his current clients include a Bergen County couple with a combined annual income of more than $120,000, and two mortgages totaling $443,000 on a home with a current market value of $400,000. He says they are nine months behind on monthly payments of more than $3,900, and are trying to sell their home.”
“Other attorneys have similar stories to tell. ‘This crunch has hit a far broader spectrum of the population than ever before in my 39 years’ as a lawyer, says James Aaron, a partner in (a) Ocean-based law firm.”
The New York Times on New Jersey. “In a state where the major burden of paying for government services falls to the property tax, New Jersey bears the unenviable distinction of having the highest property taxes in the country. Over the last five years, the average state property tax has increased 30 percent.”
“Since housing values have started to drop, some homeowners are balking that they are now paying too much - based on inflated property assessments made at the height of the real estate boom - and are now asking the assessor to come back for another look.”
“From 2003 to 2007, the average assessed price of a home in New Jersey rose by 50 percent: to $256,450 in 2007, up from $173,110 in 2003, according to data from the State Department of Treasury.”
“‘Was it criminal?’ asked Harold Frankel, speaking of the 2005 reassessment of Lakewood that resulted in a 60 percent increase in his property tax bill. ‘No. But it was unfair. I think it was stupid to do a reassessment at a time when half of the market was driven by speculation.’”
“Scott Alexander was elected mayor of Haddon Heights last fall, running on a platform that largely focused on the incompetence of the reassessment effort in his Camden County town. With its 2006-7 reassessment, three-quarters of the town’s 3,039 properties saw their assessed value go down, while one-quarter saw huge increases in their home’s assessed values, and, concurrently, property tax bills that were more than double the previous year.”
“‘Everyone thought the whole town’s values went up and therefore the tax rates were going to go down, but that wasn’t the case,’ Mr. Alexander said. ‘The results were all over the place.’”
“Now several hundred homeowners in Haddon Heights, including Mr. Alexander, are appealing their reassessments. The mayor said his house, at $525,000, has lost 20 percent of its value since the reassessment was completed last year and the real estate market has continued to soften.”
The Maryland Daily Record. “Along with many other small and midsize banks, Baltimore-based Provident Bankshares Corp. has suffered through the aftermath of the subprime mortgage crisis, because of a portfolio heavily weighted with housing-related loans. Provident shied away from offering subprime loans, but it has still felt the aftershocks of the mess.”
“‘Even though Provident didn’t invest or lend into subprime, when that tree fell, it took down a lot of prime trees in the vicinity of it,’ said Dennis Starlipper, chief financial officer of the bank. ‘None of us had any idea of the magnitude of the collapse,’ he said.”
“The affects of a crumbling housing market made investors afraid of putting their money into a bank so tied to the industry, Starlipper said. Locally, shares of First Mariner Bancorp have fallen from a 52-week high of $14.20 to $3.85 Monday.”
“‘Investors in this sector have rotated out some time ago and are very leery of rotating back in until the environment of residential finance appears to stabilize,’ Starlipper said.”
“The turmoil in the housing market caused Provident to write down more than $90 million in mortgage-related securities in the 1st quarter.”
“‘If you look at their loan portfolio, they had a high amount of loans in the home equity and construction, and investors’ concerns are that the capital they’ve raised to navigate them through the entire credit cycle will not be adequate,’ said Damon DelMonte, an analyst who covers Provident.”
“Starlipper said nothing would indicate that the bank would see major write-downs in the second quarter, but it’s not out of the woods yet. ‘In no way could I ever say the write-downs are over,’ he said. ‘It is possible that we may have further write-downs in the future.’”
“The chief judge of Maryland’s highest court is calling on lawyers to lend a hand to people facing foreclosure. According to Court of Appeals Chief Judge Robert M. Bell, Maryland is one of the 10 states hardest hit by the foreclosure crisis, with 11,000 foreclosures anticipated for 2008.”
“‘Not every homeowner can save their home. Not every homeowner deserves to have their home saved,’ Bell said. ‘But, for those who do deserve to have their home saved … that’s what this profession is all about.’”
“Foreclosure ‘is no longer a subprime problem nor is it strictly an urban problem,’ Bell said; rather, it has ’spread to every corner of the state.’”
The Times Dispatch from Virginia. “Joan Peaslee, a top-selling agent at Prudential Slater James River, had never dealt with a short sale — until this year. ‘I didn’t even know what one was,’ said Peaslee, who has been selling real estate in the Richmond area for more than 20 years.”
“Requests for short sales have doubled from a year ago, said Jason Spooner, senior VP of defaults for SunTrust Mortgage Inc. in Richmond. ‘As a tool belt, short sales will be with us in 2008 and 2009,’ Spooner said. ‘I don’t think it’s a bad thing. At the end of the day, the last thing we want to do is foreclose.’”
“Todd Poole is trying to work out a short sale with his mortgage lender. He bought a big, beautiful Queen Anne Victorian in the Barton Heights neighborhood in North Richmond for $285,000 at the peak of the housing boom in April 2006.”
“Poole, an attorney, moved to Atlanta for a job and put his house on the market in January for $324,950. When the house didn’t sell, he lowered the price to $299,000. The house is on the market now for $224,950 — $100,000 less than the original asking price — and Poole still has no offers. His mortgage is for $285,000.”
“That doesn’t include the $30,000 he and his wife put into the house in new copper flashing and privacy fencing. ‘We put everything we had into that house. It’s our dream home. In a different neighborhood, it would be worth a lot more,’ he said.”
“Poole said he is trying to get approval for the short sale, but the process is tedious and involved. He said he will allow the house to go into foreclosure if the bank does not agree to the short sale and forgive the remaining debt.”
“‘I would like to work with the bank to reduce their loss and to reduce mine,’ he said.”
“His credit report will be harmed with a short sale but not as much as it would with a foreclosure, real estate experts say. Peaslee, the agent who relisted the house at the reduced price, said the short sale scared away one potential buyer.”
“‘The stars don’t align with a short sale,’ she said. ‘We don’t know what price the lender will take or how long it take to get an answer.’”
“A short sale can take as much as 90 days longer than a typical sale, said Lem Marshall, special counsel for the Virginia Association of Realtors. Even then, there is no guarantee it will go through.”
“Short sales were not done in general during the housing-related recession in the early 1990s because the downturn was shorter and less severe, he said. Marshall has been conducting courses on short sales for agents across the state since August. ‘There are so many out there,’ he said.”
“With so many houses on the market, why bother with the hassle of a short sale? ‘Buyers get a deal,’ Marshall said. Houses sold in a short sale can go for 60 percent to 75 percent of the value, he said.”
“Lenders may forgive the debt and write it off as a loss. Or, they may require the seller to liquidate other assets to make up the balance of the loan. ‘Some lenders forgive debt, some don’t,’ Marshall said.”
“‘If the seller is driving a new $40,000 car, he will need to sell it and get a clunker and give the lender the difference. But usually the seller has been picked clean at this point,’ he said.”
“Nationwide, prices have fallen 20 percent from a year ago and continue to drift down. Although the decline in the Richmond area has been modest, Northern Virginia has seen a steep drop in prices.”
“‘This market is unique; we haven’t seen anything like it,’ Marshall said.”
The Virginia Pilot. “When Tom Edwards and Cyndi Culpepper put a house in Port Norfolk up for sale last summer, they thought it would easily bring $330,000. Edwards had bought the Victorian on Douglas Avenue in Portsmouth in rough shape for about $90,000 in 2004. He and his wife invested about $110,000 more to refurbish the place.”
“The house didn’t sell. In February, the couple hired a new real estate agent who convinced them to drop the price to $291,000. Culpepper said she was reluctant. The couple are like many Hampton Roads home sellers who have resisted lowering their prices as the local housing market slowed and values across the country dropped.”
“As sellers here have held out on price, the inventory of available homes has piled up.”
“The number of active listings across the region - including all Hampton Roads localities as well as outlying rural areas such as Western Tidewater, the Eastern Shore and northeastern North Carolina - climbed to 15,183 at the end of May, almost 11 percent higher than the same time last year, according to the regional MLS.”
“Current listings are almost five times the number in May 2004, when the local market headed toward its peak, said Vinod Agarwal, an economics professor at Old Dominion University, whose data includes a slightly smaller regional slice.”
“Listing prices for homes in Hampton Roads may be indicating more angst ahead for sellers. As of the end of May, the median price of active listings fell to $289,900, down more than 9 percent from $320,000 a year earlier.”
“‘In our thinking, resellers of homes will sooner or later realize that if they want to sell their homes, they’re going to have to lower their prices,’ Agarwal said.”
“Juliette Brown, a real estate agent, recently listed a home in the Olde Towne neighborhood of Portsmouth for $450,000. The owners bought it for $360,000 in September 2005, city assessor’s records show.”
“They made many upgrades to the historic house and now, with a growing family, hope to earn enough to put down on a larger place, Brown said. Like other sellers, they cannot give too much on their asking price ‘because of what they already owe the bank or because of what they need to buy their next house,’ she said.”
“No matter their financial needs, sellers must face the reality of today’s market if they want to move their properties, agents said. Many look back at a neighbor’s sale two or three years ago and want to cling to those prices.”
“Brown said she bought her house in the Greenbrier area of Chesapeake in 1998 for $125,000. Four years ago, a neighbor’s home sold for $375,000. A similar house nearby is listed now at $299,000, she said.”
“‘It’s hard for them to understand, to fathom, that it’s different from a couple of years ago,’ Brown said. They think, she continued, ‘My neighbor across the street made $100,000. I want to make $100,000 now.’”
“Keith Abernathy said prospective buyers in recent years couldn’t find an available townhouse in the Sandie Point development in Portsmouth. He bought his condominium there in 1998 for about $150,000 and put it on the market in February 2006.”
“Listed at $300,000, the three-bedroom condo’s appeal suffered when the housing bubble began to contract. Abernathy took it off the market for about six months over the winter 2007 holidays.”
“This spring, he relisted it at $279,000 and has since dropped it to $269,000. Now, Abernathy is offering other incentives: a home warranty, a year of paid condo fees and $5,000 in paid closing costs.”
“‘There comes a point where you don’t want to lower the price and bring the values down for your neighbors,’ Abernathy said, adding of Sandie Point: ‘It’s one of the best-kept secrets in Portsmouth.’”
“Back in Port Norfolk, Culpepper and Edwards recently told their agent that they would entertain offers as low as $250,000. The couple, who live across the street from their home on the market, has invested in a number of properties in Portsmouth.”
“‘We buy, we rehab, we sell - well, we try to sell,’ Culpepper said. ‘Lately, we haven’t been very lucky with the selling part.’”
‘They think, she continued, ‘My neighbor across the street made $100,000. I want to make $100,000 now.’
I guess the heart of a mania dies hard, but this kind of ‘thinking’ is just plain insane.
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The principle of equality should guarantee that outcome. I am entitled to the same rewards as anyone else. And I would wait until I do.
Jas
You call it insane, I’m trying to decide between “juvenile” and “unsophisticated”.
We’ll see how reality interferes with her fantasy…
Sort of like thinking, just cause Brad Pitt is gorgeous and wealthy does that make every man expect the same results? Or women thinking they as exotic/beautiful as any other female star?
So, if your neighbor makes a fortune 2 yrs ago, you too will come out smelling like a rose.
Not so much.
Yeah, but plastic surgery is the great equalizer, NOT. Check out:www.awfulplasticsurgery.com
The problem is people are bombarded with celebrity riches, and they just don’t feel good about themselves unless they are getting rich too. It fuels scams and the “get rich quick” mentality.
This is just another angle on it. People feel entitled to make a load of cash. Everyone is doing it, right?
It is a virus, and it has infected the entire country.
Proof that Cargo Cult ‘magical thinking’ still pervades most U.S. markets. A good reason to pass on current so-called ‘bargains’ and continue to wait. Until this mindset is brought crashing down (along with Wishing prices), I refuse to buy.
Could it be cognitive dissonance?
“Poole, an attorney, moved to Atlanta for a job”
Why? Did he lose his old job? He couldn’t find any OTHER work in VA? No my friends, The Poole’s wanted a fresh start. A “Mulligan” if you will. The cautious initial pricing leads me to be believe they knew EXACTLY what was up!
My youngest brother-also an attorney-did the much the same in 1988. H moved from Richmond, VA to Columbia, SC. Despite having grownup in Rock Hill, SC, he couldn’t take it and moved back within 6 months.
“We put everything we had into that house”
Poor, poor little thing. After all you’ve been there 26 months ( 6 of which you’ve been trying to sell ) and we’ll take obviously the projects stopped the moment you realized your goose was cooked.
Sheesh. I get so tired of these comments. When a couple goes through several career/life changes and STILL remains committed to the house/neighborhood THEN you can tell me you “put everything you had” into it! Taking a different job b/c you saw something on Monster is an entirely different matter. How DARE these people coat tail on hard working dedicated people.
career/life changes ?
Gee wonder what their grandparents thought during the depression/OKC dust bowl era? Gee, lets stay and try to put in another crop… OF DUST. Not. Lots moved.
I see the point, living in so cal, which I love . . . but so many people come here like flies landing on some jelly they see . . . they have no real commitment, and pick up and leave very easily, to try the next new thing. I don’t think you can compare it to someone choosing not to plant a new crop during the depression/OKC dust bowl era.
So true what you say DinOR . I get so pissed off every time a 2 year investment plan home buyer acts like a victim when they can’t get the short term profit they expected . The speculator clowns have destroyed many a neighborhood where long term owners live. Oh its just lovely how great neighborhoods look now with all the brown grass and uncared for pools and property .
I took care of my speculator neighbors lawn when they walked ,until it finally sold by foreclosure sale . I think my neighbor lived in the house for all of 18 months total . Oh, the neighbor didn’t have a job change or loss, didn’t have a major medical emergency ,had a ton of cash in a bank account from another flip ,yet how dare they be expected to pay their obligations if they can’t get their entitled appreciation because they worked so hard moving into the property .Oh I forgot ,the ex-neighbors planted 3 plants while they were living there . Oh, the neighbor was making offers on other property a couple months before they walked .The neighor said to me,”Got to get on on these
cheap prices.” The neighbors split and I had to look at the mess they left behind .
“because they worked so hard moving into the property”
LOL!
You know ( and from reading comments further down ) I really had no idea just what an “infiltration” this 2 Year Investment Plan crowd represented? Now we’re seeing flops, accidental landlords and “with a pulse” renters mounting their insurgency where there were NEVER rentals before!
What a terrible precedent. Even in my 10k pop. OR town we are seeing homes in THE most upscale neighborhood in town with homes being offered as rentals. It’s really a joke because the HOA charter only allows for 1 yr. rental periods ( after which the owner would have to petition for an add’l yr. ) But with 30+ homes for sale at present, it’s not hard to imagine the HOA just drying up and blowing away.
STOP The Insurgency!!
DinOR …I have never seen anything like it ,it’s shocking really . I mean I have seen lay-offs from a big Company or Industry take a neighborhood or area down ,but this disease is everywhere .
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“Reiser says his current clients include a Bergen County couple with a combined annual income of more than $120,000, and two mortgages totaling $443,000 on a home with a current market value of $400,000. He says they are nine months behind on monthly payments of more than $3,900, and are trying to sell their home.”
The lenders are $80K in the hole already and walking away is the best option. I am sure that they would be able to rent for close to $2,000 a month. Easy choice to make. Let the lenders pay the price for bad lending practices. Pushing debt has consequences.
Jas
I don’t get it . IMHO ,these people have enough income to make the payments .This couple made the choice to put more of their income toward mortgage debt ,but they have a lot more left over monthly than a lot of people that took out loans . This is not a hard-ship case as much as it is a “I want to walk because the house has gone down in
value case .”
Exactly - how is 3.7 X HH income a crushing burden? Around here (CA), we haven’t seen a ratio that *low* since before Prop 13 (1978). This story smells.
They are probably speculators choosing ‘ruthless default’ b/c their 2-year flip failed to generate the windfall profits they were expecting.
“ruthless default” LOL!
Harm, good to see you, and good to see you haven’t lost your touch! I’d trademark that little gem. This crowd reminds of another old saying:
“He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day”*
A. Coward
I agree, Wizard.
This numbnut couple should spend some time cleaning latrines at their local clink. To say that you can’t afford $3,900 mortgage while making $120K plus annually is bullshit. They can afford it - easily.
Poor babies.
We make over $120K and would not pay that much for a morgage… maybe that is why we wre still renting. But we are also paying over $1200/mo on day care to make that income.
The days of “entertaining” offers, as if they are something to
invite to tea for engaging conservation, are done.
Time + entertaining = imagineered equity decline.
As in kaput.
Indeed, those days are done. But I’m still seeing the “entertaining offers” rhetoric here in Tucson.
I agree in one sense “entertaining offers” is bogus. If a seller listed a house at an asking price in today’s market, and some buyer steps forward to meet that price, then the seller and agent are crazy not to accept the offer, provided it’s not loaded down with too many non-monetary ridicuolous contingencies. If and when, at some point in the future, some seller’s agent tries to pull this “offers are coming in” stunt on me after I’ve made a realistic offer, I’ll just walk away, period. Game over.
On the other hand, no one really knows what anything is worth in a lot of markets anymore. As a result, I wonder at some point if we’ll start seeing properties advertised (not through used house salespeople) with no asking price, simply “make me an offer”. Kind of like an ebay auction with an undisclosed minimum reserve. Pseudo-auctions such as these may be the only way in some destroyed housing markets, to figure out what anything is really worth.
Now if the lenders would finally start holding real no-reserve auctions on their REO properties, what I’m suggesting won’t be necessary.
“make me an offer” ?
I think at some point, many will just walk,
jingle all the way?
There’s still a lot of non-underwater property out there, and will always be. At some point, those people will need to sell as well.
A lot of economic and career dislocation is being forced by all of this. Overpriced real estate and the bust are already affecting employer’s abilities to get people to relocate for new positions.
Regarding the geniuses trying to flip the place in Portsmouth, VA, from Wikipedia: “The median income for a household in the city was $36,742, and the median income for a family was $39,577.”
While there are nice areas in Portsmouth, it’s kind of the black sheep of the area.
I hate to say it, but using Melissadata.com and looking up sales, houses are still moving at high dollar amounts in Southeastern Virginia.
The taller they are, the harder they fall.
““‘There comes a point where you don’t want to lower the price and bring the values down for your neighbors,’ Abernathy said”
Awwwwww. Always thinking of the neighbors - how public-spirited of them!
Yes it’s always the altruistic impulse that takes over.
Not.
More like this:
“They made many upgrades to the historic house and now, with a growing family, hope to earn enough to put down on a larger place, Brown said. Like other sellers, they cannot give too much on their asking price ‘because of what they already owe the bank or because of what they need to buy their next house,’ she said.”
It’s all about them. No consideration about the poor fool who steps up to the plate to help them “earn” the funds they need for the more better ego-gratifying POS.
I guess no one has ever heard of bunk beads. I’m so sick of the “growing family” line. Like, gee, there’s 3 of us now, so we need a 5 bedroom house.
I had this conversation with my wife last weekend. We drove by a house we liked that has been on the market for a year. When we first saw it in August ‘07 it was listed for 339,900, now it’s listed for 325,000, a big 4% price reduction in 10 months.
The sellers want to move into their dream house and “need” the extra money for the upgrade (House was built in 1994 and is the original owners, I don’t know if there are HELOC loans involved).
I told my wife that I could try to sell my 1993 Saturn SC2 for $30,000 so I could buy my dream ‘08 Cadillac CTS, but that doesn’t mean anyone is going to buy it. Then a further lesson on how markets work drove the point home.
Luckily (or not) we are way too poor to be buying a house now or anytime soon. I still need to get a job, and we need to pay off her massive student loans.
IShe still needs to get a job, andweshe needs to pay off her massive student loans.There… all fixed!
She may already have a job. But I agree with your point that she should pay her own loans. . .
True story: A couple of neighborhood activists decided that this patch of Tucson wasn’t to their liking. So, they found another house nearby and put their existing house on the market.
And it didn’t sell. And didn’t sell. And didn’t sell.
Being the thoughtful, always considerate of the neighbors people that they were, I thought they were holding out for some family to come along and pay their wishing price.
Nope.
A specu-vestor finally took the property off their hands, and he’s done a fabulous job of turning it into a rental dump. Oh, did I mention that said specu-vestor has already tried to flip it?
And it didn’t sell. And didn’t sell. And didn’t sell.
My prediction is that the place will be in foreclosure by year’s end.
Moral of the story: When it comes to selling their houses, neighborhood activists will look to their own interests first.
What was the matter with your neighborhood for these “activists” to want to leave Slim? Not enough sidewalk cafes? Not enough “fashionable” social groups to be seen with?
Activists are wannabe politicians. All the bluster - none of the clout.
Oh, brother, John. Where do I begin?
First of all, these self-styled activists bought a house that was right behind the basketball court in a city park. And they didn’t like the noise. Nor were they thrilled with some of the unsavory characters who showed up to play, deal drugs, and do other things.
And, sorry to say, I’ve seen the same sort of people showing up at basketball courts in Tucson’s nicer neighborhoods. What can I say, there’s just something about that sport of basketball…
They also weren’t too happy about the lack of community around here, but you know what? Some of our neighbors just aren’t worth that kind of bother. They’re inconsiderate jerks, and that’s all I have to say about ‘em. (Side challenge: Try to find any neighborhood without at least one inconsiderate jerk. Just try.)
However, even though this place isn’t perfect, there are some very caring, kind people around here. Since I can’t afford to up and move to some other ‘hood, I’m going to stick it out right here. And work to make this place better.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to e-mail the neighborhood association president about that rezoning hearing tomorrow night…
Slim,
Sounds to me like you’re an activist and they’re just jerks.
“The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
“‘There comes a point where you don’t want to lower the price and bring the values down for your neighbors,’ Abernathy said”
…and don’t forget about the children… Phrases like these have me lunging for the barf bag.
It’s not about the values for the neighbors, it’s about whether or not you sell the house. Someone will eventually sell and the comps will go lower. You can sell now for more or sell later for less. Are those neighbors going to make up the difference if you sell later?
I can’t find it, but there was a great quote from an RE agent in Reno a couple of years ago as prices were starting to slide, who said that not only did you have to buy a house; but you had to pay full list price, because otherwise the neighbors wouldn’t be able to refinance their houses.
Think of the children…
“I can’t find it, but there was a great quote from an RE agent in Reno a couple of years ago as prices were starting to slide, who said that not only did you have to buy a house; but you had to pay full list price, because otherwise the neighbors wouldn’t be able to refinance their houses.”
It probably wasn’t just in Reno. If you sell for less you hurt the HELOC whores and those too lazy to yet refi into loans with historically low long-term rates. Also if you sell for less, property taxes go down for all of your neighbors. Selling for less appears to hurt mainly the lazy and stupid and some who work on commission.
“HELOC whores”
Damn!
Hey, that’s MISTER HELOC Whore to you!
Yes, by all means necessary to keep the Ponzi alive. Pffftt, that “mouse house-ing” didn’t even work within the wealthiest gated communities. How is it ever going to work in plain old neighborhoods?
“‘Even though Provident didn’t invest or lend into subprime, when that tree fell, it took down a lot of prime trees in the vicinity of it,’ said Dennis Starlipper, chief financial officer of the bank. ‘None of us had any idea of the magnitude of the collapse,’ he said.”
Right ..On!
All of us Bankers, RE agents and assessors are just the innocent little worker bees that merely BUILD those “Bubble Bombs”.
We had NO IDEA that Wall Street would load them up into their evil high-flying B-52’s, DROP them and actually HURT anybody
Errrr…ummm….
You have it wrong, Mr Realtor(tm).
After a short sale, the house is worth “100%” of the “value”.
There is no “getting a deal”. The house you bought is now worth what was paid for it. Not a penny more; and in fact, probably less since house prices are spiraling downwards.
..
In a declining market…no matter what you paid…you paid too much.
Well, I agree but at some point you could find yourself trying to get “too cute” with the timing. I know this may not be popular but I think some areas of Vegas have bottomed.
I’ve seen listings at $85 a s/f and roughly 3-3.5 HH income. Will it go lower..?
Probably.
well everyone…I am a very happy man.
wife and I put our condo on the market about a year ago. at the height of the market they sold for 435k. you could rent one for $ 1,800.
we just sold our unit for 375k. they now rent for $ 1,600.
we signed a lease on a beautiful 3 bedroom townhouse for $ 2,500 a month. identical townhomes are for sale…asking price? $ 635,000.
and the best part? the rental is 5 minutes from mine and my wife’s offices. the condo we sold was 45 minute commute each way for both of us.
i just want to send a thank you to the knife catcher.
(we live in northern va btw)
Looks like you will save about $2k a month in rent v. buying, giving you $48k in two years to use to purchase a home similar to the one you are renting at a price of $450k or less at such time.
Homeownership these days is just throwing money out of the window.
Home ownership or home purchasing is throwing money out the window?
I would daresay that if you don’t have a mortgage to feed or a house falling apart around you, renting is potentially more costly over the long term. But that mainly applies only if you bought before the bubble.
True. I support homeownership during periods in which prices fall within or below historical norms, and have owned many homes, but that is not the times we are in today in most places.
I would daresay that if you don’t have a mortgage to feed or a house falling apart around you, renting is potentially more costly over the long term.
Not necessarily. If you don’t have a mortgage, and sold the house, then the 100% equity in the house would instead be invested cash. Even at current low rates on savings, you would probably come out ahead by renting, when you include all the “ownership” costs (taxes, insurance, maintenance, maybe HOA fees) vs. rent. I recently worked this out by spreadsheet, and renting came out ahead - in fact the annual cost of owning was about 1.3X renting for our neighborhood, and that’s using recent REO pricing (for owning).
O.K, now we’re talking!
If it were SO true that the MID ( mort. int. ded. ) were that sweet then many of the “ruthless default” crowd would actually be EMBRACING their mortgage re-sets!
( But they’re not )
Why not just tough it out and harvest all that great MID!? Well because it doesn’t work quite like advertised now does it? You have to make those ugly PITI installments for an entire YEAR to get the full benefit. Just as we calculate “Taxable Equivalent Yields” on municipal bonds there’s an after tax benefit that NAR/REIC is so shell shocked they’re completely ignoring!
Why aren’t they selling that to the justwalkaway.com crowd?
that’s a fancy TH -what zip code
less carbon too boot
22182 is the zip…it’s basically in tysons corner.
we just sold our unit for 375k. they now rent for $ 1,600.
i just want to send a thank you to the knife catcher.
(we live in northern va btw)
*************************************
Fools, Fools, Fools, got to love them.
At 110 X Rent, the Townhouse is worth 176,000.
AMEN !
I wanted to kiss the Buyers of my Fairfax SFH I sold in ‘06!
We now rent & look forward to retiring in our early 50’s from the Sale proceeds…. oh yeah!
someone needs to do a budweiser salute to the knife catcher guy.
Yes, a hi-ho hardy “Real Financial Heros” salute to them all!
I can’t say as my “passing a lit stick of dynamite” experience was e-x-a-c-t-l-y the same? I seem to recall saying to my wife as we drove away from the title company check in hand, “Don’t look back or you’ll turn to stone”.
“A short sale can take as much as 90 days longer than a typical sale, said Lem Marshall.. [snip]
“With so many houses on the market, why bother with the hassle of a short sale? ‘Buyers get a deal,’ Marshall said. Houses sold in a short sale can go for 60 percent to 75 percent of the value, he said.”
There was a article posted yesterday that said in Santa Cruz, Ca the average sale price had dropped $51K from April to May.. a $1,700 per day drop.
A short sale is not immune to falling values, and if it requires 120 days to close escrow, it’s no slam-dunk that even a 75% discount is a good deal.
I knew the sales people would start burning out on short sales ,it was just a matter of time .
Damn, and I just paid $1,599.99 for my “Short Sale Magic” course with lifetime support! They actually find the deals FOR YOU and you get to profit from their expertise!
Click a mouse, buy a house! (TM)
At the Bubble’s peak in Maryland, poorly-built, entry-level, basement condos (condos UNDER other condos) were selling for about $270,000 in neighborhoods full of: coin-operated laundromats, crumbling buildings of unknown purpose, check-cashing stores, and adult bookstores. The median household income for the area in question is about $50,000. And yet this was supposed to make perfect sense… the pain has only begun here.
Heh. When I grew up in Ballmer, we used to call those areas “the projects”. Sounds like they still are, though of a different sort now, I suppose.
Heck, at least back then The Block had Pollock Johnny’s. “Polish with the works.” Best sausage sandwich, evah.
“Ballmer.” That’s exactly the way my MIL used to pronounce it, even many years after moving away.
Wow - just scanned the daily BB for any posts about the Democrat Countrywide Corruption Scandal, and aside from a few brief postings and responses, there really wasn’t that much interest.
Come on people - this is EXACTLY what we have been talking about here for two years - that the government is going to bail out the crooks and cheaters with YOUR taxpayer money, and now we have clear evidence that Christoper Dodd, the Democrat Senator WHO IS THE MAIN SPONSOR of the bailout bill, has received below-market rate loans directly from Angelo Mozillo himself worth potentially tens of thousands of dollars over the life of the loan! This is a direct bribe of a US Senator for special economic favors, and the Senator basically accepted the bribe, and now “denies knowledge”. Classic scandal!
Connect the dots and make a call to your senator and congressman to demand a full investigation. Even you exeter, have to admit that this is corruption of the highest order, and if you can get past your partisan blinders (hey - just pretend Dodd is a Republican and see how you feel), you’ll be just as angry as I am.
This is the moment of truth - the Senate banking panel is voting on the bailout TODAY. Make a couple of phone calls and express your views.
‘U.S. Sen. Chris Dodd and his wife knew that they were VIPs of Countrywide when they refinanced two mortgages in 2003 but never questioned what that designation meant.’
‘We knew at the time that we were being dealt with within a special section of the company. We really just assumed it was a courtesy, because we had an existing mortgage with them — two mortgages with them,” Dodd said Tuesday at a news conference in the U.S. Capitol.’
‘Dodd said he had not considered severing ties with Countrywide now that he knows he was placed in a special program because of his status as a U.S. senator and not because he had a good credit history. ‘I hadn’t really thought about that aspect,’ Dodd said.’
He just found a very polite way of telling all of us to jam it.
He probably knows that senators of both parties had similar deals with Mozillo or some other major sleazebag, which diminishes the desire to open this can of worms.
May all their woody pills be Chinese imports.
Yup. Just a courtesy….nothing to see here….move along….
There’s always a spot for ’special’ people on the short bus…
at least vote /email against the bill
you can get FREEer healthcare tommorrow
I agree with AZ-Lender about this Senator Dodds potential scandal .
When the bail-out talks started months ago I was really noticing Senator Dodds. it’s really funny to me now when I think back about Dodds questions to Mozilo when they were having that Congressional hearing on CEO’s of major Lenders and Investment firms . To sum it up ,Dodds could of been the Defense Attorney for the group that was being questioned .
I doubt my Senators have time to chat with me personally, and my day is full too, but I did take the time to search for “contact dianne feinstein” and “contact barbara boxer” and send each of them a respectful hand-crafted email informing them that I specifically oppose the Dodd / Frank bill, and why, and that I expect them to oppose it as well.
It was easy to do.
Since housing values have started to drop, some homeowners are balking that they are now paying too much - based on inflated property assessments made at the height of the real estate boom - and are now asking the assessor to come back for another look.”
The good news: We did a careful and unbiased review of your PLAY via security tapes by the pitboss, management and the “boys” and our conclusions was that it was a CLEAN and unobstructed throw of the DICE,
The bad news:… you LOST!!!
In conclusion, we at the Hotel and Casino RE Speculation, always appreciate your business and look forward to entertaining your gambling needs in the future.
Oh…and Ernie the Enforcer and Fat Al the Meanie will escort you to the back alley door to discuss your medical and payment options
LOL.
“Lenders may forgive the debt and write it off as a loss. Or, they may require the seller to liquidate other assets to make up the balance of the loan. ‘Some lenders forgive debt, some don’t,’ Marshall said.”
I highly doubt these lenders will forgive the debt. They will sell the remaining debt to scum collectors at pennies to the dollar. So you let Collectors do what they do best and if they collect, the lenders will get some of it. Win win for the two them. The borrower, you’ll get those after hour phone calls and this is not a credit card debt where it maybe 3K-10K, it’s 50K-100K. Ouch!
Money trees, many problems
“‘Even though Provident didn’t invest or lend into subprime, when that tree fell, it took down a lot of prime trees in the vicinity of it,’ said Dennis Starlipper, chief financial officer of the bank. ‘None of us had any idea of the magnitude of the collapse,’ he said.”
If they had no idea about the magnitude, they are either incompetent or stupid. Had they bothered to do a small amount of research, they could have foreseen exactly where this this was going.
I vote for stupid. They thought they were smart and could out run the market. They got clobbered.
Today’s Merc reporting on the UCLA Anderson report:
“Ratcliff said he thinks of today’s market as Phase 2.5, [out of 3 phases] calling it a bit too early to celebrate a recovery. Foreclosures caused by resetting adjustable-rate mortgages may have peaked, he said, so foreclosure rates may begin to decline later this year or early in 2009.”
Wasn’t this a reputable group at one time?
It was until Christopher Thornberg left. About 9 months before he started his own consulting firm, Mr. Thornberg’s comments became much less bearish, and more confused.
After his departure, The Forecast has sounded like so many other academic institutions: the mouthpieces of their funders. It’s amazing how quickly a reputation can die when it’s stained by a lie.
I think Mr. Thornberg was very uncomfortable telling all those lies and spinning bad news into fairy tales.
‘may’
Sometimes pouring a quart of motor oil & lighting a match, will stop a Poole from being effected by East Denial Virus…
“Poole, an attorney, moved to Atlanta for a job and put his house on the market in January for $324,950. When the house didn’t sell, he lowered the price to $299,000. The house is on the market now for $224,950 — $100,000 less than the original asking price — and Poole still has no offers. His mortgage is for $285,000.”
“‘Not every homeowner can save their home. Not every homeowner deserves to have their home saved,’ Bell said. ‘But, for those who do deserve to have their home saved … that’s what this profession is all about.’”
So, we really don’t need a housing bailout after all do we? The whole mess can be handled with what we have right now. Any Congressional bailout plan will only make things worse. We wouldn’t want our Congress to do that now would we?
Well! WOULD WE!?!
Roidy
But how can you bail out the Banks if you make bail-outs based on the party deserving it or the party proving they deserve it ,such as the legal system would require .
Well, the banks have reserves that take care of this problem, don’t they? Oh, wait a minute…
Roidy
Hearing all the “this market is unique” I am reminded of a great Bill Mauldin drawing of “Joe” during WWII. He is seen sitting in a muddy hole in the middle of the road holding up an American tanks progress. The tanker is looking over the turret with disdain and Joe can be heard saying, “the hell this isn’t the most important hole in the world, I’m in it!”
“…Houses sold in a short sale can go for 60 percent to 75 percent of the value, he said.”
Do realtors say that because they believe it, or because they wish it were so, or because they’re just trying to deceive potential buyers?
Houses sold in a short sale go for current value, which may be 60 to 75 percent of the foolish seller’s current mortgage balance.
People are walking away from overpriced homes to buy similar ones for 40% less. As someone who actually takes their signature serious, I find this really telling about our society. People have no honor today in this country. Looking at the behavior of our government and Wall Street, I can see where they got the idea that honor is for chumps. Having said that, the lenders were dumb enough to give them the money, so they got what they deserved. But it is telling about our society.
Very telling.
If you make a normal middle-class wage, and you find out that the MB and Bank pretty much conspired to screw you to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are not going to sit there and throw away the earning potential of what is effectively the rest of your life just so you can remain “honorable” to those scumbags. What goes around comes around.
The concept that the little people will follow the rules in exchange for the big people doing the same is called the social contract. Like many contracts, it becomes void if either party decides to abrogate it.
But, we can’t forget how Congress made it easy for the people to walk away by taking away the tax on forgiven debt . So, the government collects less taxes and than they need to raise the taxes so they can cover the tax break they gave to speculators . I just love these bail-outs .
‘So, the government collects less taxes and than they need to raise the taxes so they can cover the tax break they gave to speculators . I just love these bail-outs.’
Man, nobody contorts themselves any more than you to arrive at some imaginary grievance. I can’t even understand what you said. Have you talleyed up what dollar amounts we are talking about here? I haven’t seen it. Maybe half a billion, tops? That’s what in the amount the government spends? Anyway, it sped up the foreclosures.
Ben, The full tally of how many people who are going to walk isn’t in yet . It’s a very destabilizing force to have to many people walk ,especially at the same time .
IMHO ,the prices would of gone down anyway based on other factors and the foreclosures would of taken place on enough properties to bring the prices down, also based on the tighter underwriting and the huge supply of homes .Just the over building alone would of forced price reductions .Unqualified buyers would of gone into foreclosure .
If you add up all forms of bails outs that are being proposed ,or the ones that are being debated ,the final bill could add up to a staggering amount .
Again ,we go back to the moral hazard of people not having some penalty for their own actions .
I see your point about the foreclosures speeding up the price reductions ,but IMHO that would of happened anyway ,maybe a little slower .
I use to want a fast brutal correction ,but I want it to be more of a just one and one that does not create so many emergencies that it creates to much loss at one time .The lenders can’t even address the overwhelming amount of foreclosures at one time .
Ben, you never seem to comment to much on the inflation costs of the Feds low rate policies currently .
I just always wanted the free market system to correct this housing bust ,and all this interference by the government ,and changing of contract law after the fact, is not creating a orderly crash ,and the fraud is still rampant ,and certainly any attempts to pass losses to the taxpayers I wouldn’t be in favor of as you know .
The time for a brutal correction was in 2003 or 2004 IMHO .
If the government doesn’t collect the taxes on forgiven debt
than less taxes are collected . It’s a tax break to a group that created their own mess ,and its a provision that in the past has stopped people from walking on their obligations . If a person is a hard-ship case or they are bankrupted ,the IRS generally waves the tax bite anyway ,so there was no reason to change that law .
Anyway , I know you don’t think the government is going to be able to afford all these bail-outs, and its all a bunch of lip service in a election year ,but I differ from you thinking .You might be right ,and I hope that you are right ,but the policies that are being set up are going to cost more than the short term thinking of the politicians that are setting up these policies and bail-outs IMHO.
Took me a long time to respond because I didn’t know you
made a post .
The people in this country, for the most part, have no savings. They lost most of their stock portfolio when the tech bubble collapsed. They really only have their house left, so when that goes they are completely broke. And they have no health insurance or other social programs to fall back on. They really don’t have job security, now that offshore outsourcing has become the norm.
And now inflation is going to eat them alive.
Instead of looking to blame someone else for their problems, the truth is Americans have made many disastrous decisions. They have been as reckless with their finances as our government has been the last 8 years. And now it is all blowing up.
So predictable.
The reckless ones were the ones who saved nothing and tried to get rich by speculating and flipping.
What sucks is that people who played by the rules: went to college, got a real job, saved 10% of their wages to the 401(k), bought a house within their means are going to lose their jobs, their 401(k) savings and any equity they built up by actually paying the real monthly payment on their house. They are going to get screwed, and will probably wonder why they didn’t play the game. At least they would have had a cool car and other toys in the mean time.
Colorado ….So true so true what you say . The people that played by the rules are getting punished while the reckless and greedy ones caused it ,and they got rewarded .
“If a society doles out reward and punishment in a unjust
manner ,that society is doomed to fail .”
(Author unkown )
Or, behind door number two…
Those who chose to stay out of debt, chose to stay away from the lifestyle of the Jones, chose to save instead of spend will soon be able to buy at HUGE DISCOUNTS assets dumped on the market by such folks forced to sell for much needed liquidity.
Patience.
Buffett: “I don’t particularity like recessions, but I do like the prices they produce.”
(Or words to that effect.)
Hard to buy when you don’t have a job.
In a market rigged to reward the reckless, imprudent and immoral, the very dumbest thing you can be is a market participant who behaves in a responsible, prudent and moral manner.
This is the kind of thinking I am looking forward to hearing about enmass.
Spread the word: The market sucks and everyone should dump their holdings.
Short sales - In the scenario of someone needing to sale a property for reasonable causes (relocation, etc.), in which they were upside down on a property, instead of asking the bank to do a short sale and write-off the balance, they admit the f*****d-up, and say I will take a personal note (unsecured) for the difference. I realize this would be unusual by taking responsibility for your own mistakes, but I believe banks would willing to accomodate borrowers. I realize this would be a down for those wanting to just walk-away but it would be required if I were a bank.
The only thing banks need to do to protect themselves from walkaways is not to lend more than fundamental value (based on rent). If they choose to loan more, they should not complain if they don’t get it back.
The banks are doing more than complaining ,the banks want to be bailed out and made whole again after their “Great Foolish Lending
Cycle.”