July 7, 2008

Desperate Sellers And Buyers With Money To Spend

The Orlando Sentinel reports from Florida. “More than 2,100 homes in Lake County have fallen into foreclosure through the first half of 2008, making this a record year for mortgage defaults in just six months. The unofficial total of 2,191 foreclosure filings through the end of June shattered the county’s previous 12-month mark set last year, when lenders foreclosed on 2,080 properties. And it’s getting worse.”

“When the onslaught began last year, many of those defaulting on mortgages were ‘flippers.’ But more recently, people receiving foreclosure notices are victims of the economy — they have lost a job or can’t afford gas and still make the house payments, said Shannan Buttner, whose company, based in Umatilla, delivers foreclosure notices.”

“‘I had a woman tell me she’s working two jobs but just can’t make it anymore,’ Buttner said.”

From TC Palm. “Nearly 1,800 Treasure Coast homes went into some state of foreclosure in April, according to RealtyTrac. Every Treasure Coast community has seen a home left neglected because of foreclosure, but more than 80 percent of the foreclosures were in St. Lucie County.”

“Meanwhile, the flood of foreclosures has clogged the court system so badly it sometimes takes a year or more for the bank or lender to take possession of the house. Finding someone to take responsibility for the house in the intervening months is a challenge.”

“Even when banks care for the property, they still are absentee landlords and the problems of neglect often reoccur. SunTrust Mortgage, for example, cleaned up the home at 11 Cache Cay in Vero Beach early in the year. But by February, the same code violations - tall grass, green pool - were back to irritate neighbors.”

“‘Obviously, the banks want to put as little money into these properties as possible because they’re looking to get rid of them,’ Martin County Code Building Official Larry Massing said.”

The Palm Beach Post. “Reggie Capiro had reached his breaking point. Gas prices were climbing ever higher, and his 200-mile round-trip commute from Palm City to Miami had become too costly and too grating.”

“So in October, he and his wife decided to move south and put their three-bedroom, three-bath Palm City dream house on the market.”

“They hoped to find a buyer willing to pay at least as much as the balance on their mortgage. The Capiros paid $406,000 in 2003 but owed about $440,000 after refinancing to pay down credit card debt. They got into a bigger hole than expected when Reggie’s commissions as a Martin County boat salesman dried up after the 2004 hurricanes.”

“He and his wife petitioned their lender for a short sale. About six months later, Wells Fargo Home Mortgage and its servicing company have yet to accept an offer. Instead, the Capiros’ home is on the brink of foreclosure and scheduled to be auctioned on the courthouse steps July 15.”

“‘If one or more of these stakeholders says the offer price is below fair market value - or the minimum amount they are willing to accept in a short sale - Wells Fargo has no choice but to communicate the offer is denied,’ the bank said in an e-mailed statement.”

“Reggie Capiro worries about the blemish a foreclosure will leave on his record. The lease on his car is almost up, and he fears he won’t be able to qualify for a new vehicle.”

“He and his wife are now renting a home in Miami for $1,600 a month. Capiro still has keys to their empty house in Palm City, but he and his family never make the drive back. It’s too painful.”

“‘This is devastating,’ said the father of two daughters. ‘I tried my damnedest to keep my house up there…because I loved it.’”

“Despite the standing-room-only crowd and live music, a recent auction of 22 properties in Port St. Lucie’s tony Tesoro community didn’t yield a single sale. It’s not that no bids emerged at the June 28 event - it’s just that none of them were high enough for the owners of the 16 lots and six homes.”

“One four-bedroom home listed for sale at $3.75 million attracted a high bid of only $1.2 million. Another, a three-bedroom, fetched a $450,000 high bid, though it’s on the market for $2.15 million, according to Scott Powell, a Stuart-based appraiser who attended the auction.”

“‘It was very sudden, and it was a surprise,’ he said. ‘Everybody thought they were going to come back to the homes, and then they went on to the lots.’”

“After taking four high bids on the 16 lots, the bidding stopped again.”

“What happened at the Tesoro auction is consistent with what agents are seeing around Florida, said said Jose Boza, a spokesman for the auctioneer. ‘Buyers are continuing to look for steep discounts, and sellers are looking for top dollar,’ he said. ‘Until sellers readjust their asking prices, there will continue to be an overhang of properties in Florida.’”

“In March 2006, when the real estate market was still near its peak, city leaders broke ground on a development they said would give teachers, firefighters and other workers the chance to own a home.”

“MerryPlace was meant to bring new life to a long-neglected neighborhood full of renters, dilapidated houses and vacant lots. But two years later, many of the lots that were supposed to sprout with condos and townhouses are still empty.”

“And in the worst national housing downturn since the Great Depression, even government-sponsored affordable housing is proving to be a tough sell.”

“Today, buyers can find better deals in the free market, said Marc Schoen, the first real estate broker hired to sell the development. Some older condos are selling for less than $100, 000 in the Villages of Palm Beach Lakes. In CitySide, across from the Palm Beach Mall, several nearly new units with granite counter tops and amenities including a pool recently sold for less than $200,000.”

“‘There are much nicer properties in gated communities at lower prices,’ Schoen said.”

The News Press. “The historic, preliminary assessment of Lee County taxable property values stumbling about 12 percent - possibly the first time this has happened since the Great Depression - remained about the same in the final numbers that will go to the state for approval.”

“And Cape Coral took the hardest hit with a 25 percent fall, although that was down from the original estimate of 26.6 percent. Lehigh Acres took quite a hit too, a 16.3 percent decrease.”

“Pat Foote, who owns a house in southeast Cape Coral, said she is being careful with improvements she makes because she doesn’t want to risk the value dropping more, and losing the money she put into the house in the first place.”

“‘I’m redoing the bathrooms, but I’m not touching the kitchen until the value goes up again,’ she said. ‘I think that will happen sooner or later.’”

“The assessed value of Foote’s home was $133,620 in 2004, when she bought it. It peaked at $218,480 in 2006, then dropped to $212,590 in 2007.”

“Vicki Ferrazzano, who owns Greater Cape Realty, said the lower property values are generating some activity. But she said the quick boom and then sharp bust Lee County has experienced in the last several years has been painful for some people.”

“‘I know of a person who had a $250,000 mortgage,’ Ferrazzano said. ‘When the bank foreclosed, they put the house back on the market for $125,000.’”

“Despite the increased house-buying among investors, Ferrazzano said too many homeowners are ‘upside down’ in their mortgages. ‘I think there is more (in the downturn) to go because there are a lot more foreclosures that are going to happen,’ she said.”

The Bradenton Herald. “Open up the phone book and look under real estate appraisers and odds are if you select a few numbers at random, nearly half of them have been disconnected. ‘The volume of available work has decreased by about 40 percent,’ said Debbie Dietz, owner of Alliance Appraisal Associates in Sarasota.”

“As a result, the last cycle of license renewal for appraisers in 2006 found the numbers of appraisers across the nation cut nearly in half, Dietz said. ‘On one hand, I think it’s good. The industry shakes out,’ Dietz added.”

“During the housing boom, there were many ways less-than-reputable appraisers took advantage of the system, local appraisers say. Some used trainees to do the work and didn’t check figures while others allowed unscrupulous mortgage brokers to influence their appraisals.”

“‘They (the mortgage brokers) didn’t really care what the house was worth, they just wanted the loan to close,’ Dietz said.

“‘I turned down five or 10 appraisals a week at times,’ said Jeff Deuitch, owner of Manatee Appraisal Service in Palmetto. ‘Generally the requests came from small mortgage companies from out of state.’”

“Some of these requests would have attached notes that told an appraiser if the home’s appraisal exceeded a certain price, they should proceed with the order. ‘The pressure was out there all the time,’ he said. ‘It’s a violation to accept an assignment contingent to a certain value.’”

“Overinflated appraisals have led to an influx of reviews requested by lenders. Dietz and Deuitch have both been hired to review other appraisers’ work. ‘I’d say 99 percent of the reviews I am looking at, I disagree with the value,’ Dietz said.”

“Not all appraisal errors were intentional, Dietz stressed. Inexperienced appraisers inadvertently made errors in some cases. ‘So many people got their license as second jobs and were looking to make a quick buck,’ Dietz said.”

“‘For five or six years all you really had to have was a number in the phone book,’ Deuitch said.”

“‘There’s not too many of us anymore,’ said Gerry Russell, owner of Bradenton-based Realty Appraisal Services of Southwest Florida. One of Russell’s newest residential appraisers is delivering pizzas at night to supplement his income.”

“Where the lenders might have asked appraisers for three or four comparable houses in the past, now some lenders want six or more. ‘They have to do more to appease FHA and they have to do more to appease the lender,’ said Pete Minarich, vice president of CTX Mortgage of Bradenton.”

“With slower sales, appraisers have to get creative because there haven’t been any traditional home sales in the community for six months or more. ‘Some of the properties, you just can’t get newer comparables,’ Minarich said.”

The St Petersburg Times. “When Heidi and Harry Oelgart went online and saw real estate prices dipping in this vast retirement community, they hopped on a plane to Tampa. An agent showed the New Jersey couple a three-bedroom, lakefront home in the ritzy Renaissance section.”

“The garage was big enough to hold their two cars and Harry’s hot rod. ‘My husband saw the garage and said, ‘Let’s make an offer,’ Heidi Oelgart said.”

“They did: $345,000 on a 2-year-old house that once listed at $458,000. The couple had made three previous offers on places in Sun City Center, but they never got a call back.”

‘At 7 that night, the doorbell rang where they were staying. It was their agent, with a smile on her face and a bottle of champagne in her hands. ‘You got the house,’ Heidi Oelgart remembers her saying.”

“Thanks to plummeting prices - some condos go for as low as $37,000 - desperate sellers and buyers with money to spend, Sun City Center’s sales are on the rise.”

“Janet Johnson and her husband have visited friends in Sun City Center for years. The Maryland couple was attracted to the community’s clubs and activities. About a year ago, the retired business owners sought a place of their own with plans to keep the Maryland house.”

“‘I wasn’t going to just buy anything,’ Janet Johnson, 72, said. When she found something she liked, the price was perfect.”

“In early June, she signed a $130,000 contract for a 1,500-square-foot house with two master bedrooms, a two-car garage and a lanai. The house had once listed for $200,000.”

“‘(The price) is what made me decide,’ she said. ‘I’m afraid they are going to start going up again.’”




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101 Comments »

Comment by 2banana
2008-07-07 08:04:52

‘Buyers are continuing to look for steep discounts, and sellers are looking for top dollar,’ he said. ‘Until sellers readjust their asking prices, there will continue to be an overhang of properties in Florida.’”

Who will crack first? My money is on the sellers.

But this is in FL!!! We still have a long way to go as FL is at least 12 months ahead of most of the rest of the nation in home value re-adjustment (excluding NV, AZ and CA).

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-07-07 09:05:30

Reasons sellers might be holding out:

-All of their savings/retirement is in their home
-Ignorance of the current market/economy
-Anticipation of a bailout
-Bad advice from realtards
-Need to obtain a certain price to buy a similar home
-HELOCed to a certain price level
-GREED!

Comment by mikey
2008-07-07 09:35:45

There appears to be a lot of Fbs, Gfs, overpriced POS, Greed and Fraud floating around down there.

Will the last sane person Please Flush when they leave FLORIDA ?:)

 
Comment by steadykat
2008-07-07 11:00:07

You can forget about sellers lowering their prices. They “aren’t going to give their homes away”.

“You can have my home (for less than I have “invested” in it) when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers”.

Comment by Incredulous
2008-07-07 15:29:07

Agents consider a nine-month supply to be healthy.
I’m calling BS on this one. No one in their right mind would be happy listing their house knowing it would take 9 months to sell. In fact, if the expected time to sell a house was 9 months, would anyone in the right mind ever buy a house to begin with?

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Comment by Chip
2008-07-07 17:26:37

In the subdivision in which I made a “futuristic” (my term for it) offer, the inventory is 10 years, based on active listings, and 15 years if you add in all the withdrawn-but-unsold listings. They didn’t take it - they don’t “have” to sell, you see.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-07-07 08:06:03

“In March 2006, when the real estate market was still near its peak, city leaders broke ground on a development they said would give teachers, firefighters and other workers the chance to own a home. Today, buyers can find better deals in the free market.”

Well, that’s the good news. They’ll be plenty of “affordable housing” for a while courtesy of investors rather than taxpayers (unless the latter bail out the former).

Comment by oxide
2008-07-07 10:30:39

For the heck of it, I checked out the Merry Place website.

1 bed 1 bath condo
795 sq ft
List price: $162,478
Gov kicks in: $43,478
Teacher pays: $119,000

2 bed 2 bath condo
1084 sq ft
List price $196,478
Gov kicks ins $43,478
Teacher pays $153,000

3 bed 2 bath condo
1295 sq ft
List price $212,478
Gov kicks in $43,478
Teacher pays $169,000

They only have plans and prices for the condos. I notice it’s the condos first — single fam homes are too risky to build I guess. The condos have all the usual amenities of attached product: no yard, very little natural light. And no, a vaulted ceiling doesn’t make up for the ugly design. A little pricey, but probably not too bad for a young single teacher or young hunk firefighter — as long as the two don’t meet each other and procreate.

No word on HOA fees, which are probably in the hundreds/month.

 
Comment by Reuven Avram
2008-07-07 11:05:13

give teachers, firefighters and other workers the chance to own a home. Today, buyers can find better deals in the free market.”

These plans always amuse me. They wouldn’t want the “wrong type” of lower-income people moving in! Just teachers, firefighers, et.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-07-07 08:06:34

Pete: Do…not…seek…the…treasure.
_______________________________________________________________

“Nearly 1,800 Treasure Coast homes went into some state of foreclosure in April, according to RealtyTrac. Every Treasure Coast community has seen a home left neglected because of foreclosure, but more than 80 percent of the foreclosures were in St. Lucie County.”

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 08:50:21

We thought you was a toad!

 
 
Comment by Anthony
2008-07-07 08:08:06

“‘I’m redoing the bathrooms, but I’m not touching the kitchen until the value goes up again,’ she said. ‘I think that will happen sooner or later.’”

Try later. Much much later. What an uneducated comment. We really have turned into a nation of greedy, whiny, self-serving morons.

Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 08:21:40

Anthony,

Right, and as long as home improvement projects CONTINUE to be guided by “what brings the best ROI” we are doomed. Nearly every buyer comment Ben notes in this flurry of articles centers on “cashing in on the recovery”.

It’s absolutely remarkable to me that after all we’ve been through as a nation were housing is concerned… we’re STILL looking at it as an “investment” first! There hasn’t even been a cooling off period and already we have an army of knife-catchers at the ready?

Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 08:31:12

This army of knifecatchers is our salvation (if there IS a salvation). Their money supplies the liquidity the System needs to keep it from freezing up.

Comment by Former FB
2008-07-07 08:51:13

Will their money save the system if it’s not really their money?

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Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 09:10:31

I think he is just referring to orderly deconstruction, not a recovery. I agree with Combo that 3-5 years to ground zero is better than 3 months, accompanied by massive systemwide bank failures, bankruptcy filings, etc. I prefer we try to keep obligors on the hook for their obligations as long as we can, rather than them let them file for bankruptcy and let all hell break loose.

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 09:31:41

“I think he is just referring to orderly deconstruction, not a recovery.”

Nicely put, and that’s what I meant.

I think it would be best for all if a chart of this mess had symmetry, where the down slope looks like a mirror image of the up slope. To get it to look that way new money needs to be injected into the system to replace the old money taken out of the system. That’s why we need knifecatchers to commit their new money.

And that’s why the NAR and the REIC are our friends; they’re the ones that will lend encouragement to the knifecatchers in sacrificing their money.

 
Comment by Ed G
2008-07-07 09:51:47

Tim: Your sentiments are exactly what the Fed thought, and that’s their rationale for the Bear Stearns rescue. I actually believe the opposite. At least in a crash, people generally recognize that there’s danger and curb their investing until real profits and evidence prove otherwise. Right now a great deal of people continue to rely on the current financial companies and are bottom-calling. This first of all gives plenty of time to crooked firms like Lehman Bros. who are still playing a shell game, trying to spread their losses further and further into the future. So the pain might be less up front, but as far as I’m concerned it causes the potential losses long-term to be far greater. This ‘too big to fail’ attitude has the potential do repeat what happened in Japan with its ‘lost decade’. Government continues to try and prop up a system instead of letting it take its lumps.

 
Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 10:27:40

I understand your position and have given it great thought over the last few years. I still think the BS rescue was a brilliant move. We will never know what the results would have been if we went down a different path. I try to keep an open mind, and read and consider all arguments why I am wrong. I’m not 100% certain I am right. It’s just my best guess at this moment.

 
Comment by pinch-a-penny
2008-07-07 10:43:26

Just as a note, I thought that BS was not quite rescued, but their bondholders were? The reason I ask, is because BS as an entity is no longer in existance. The BS rescue really saved the other IB’s, but the stockholders nearly lost it all (150 to 10 in a year).

 
Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 11:11:47

True. It’s their obligations that continued. The shareholders took a bath (as they should have, albeit not as painful as a bankruptcy may have been). About as perfect an execution as you could expect under the circumstances.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Red Baron
2008-07-07 08:36:25

“‘I’m redoing the bathrooms, but I’m not touching the kitchen until the value goes up again,’ she said. ‘I think that will happen sooner or later.’”

“‘(The price) is what made me decide,’ she said. ‘I’m afraid they are going to start going up again.’”

YOU FOOLS! It is amazing how many people continue to deny reality and expect a rebound in the next year or two. Folks, this shakeout is a major, major deal, and it is going to last for years. It will be until at least 2025 before values hit their peaks again in many areas on the coasts.

Keep the popcorn popping,

Red Baron

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 08:52:12

And don’t forget that RV, friends, you may need it… :)

Comment by Red Baron
2008-07-07 09:01:35

People will be wandering the roads…just like in the 1930s.

Keep the popcorn popping,

Red Baron

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-07-07 09:29:12

Grapes of Wrath, redux. I never could get that image of Rosasharn breast feeding the starving man out of my head. Sad.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 10:38:47

I read the Grapes of Wrath in high school. I don’t recall, however, grown men feeding on a woman’s breast. That’s just wrong!

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 10:45:51

This was Steinbeck’s way of demonstrating the rise in the Joad’s humanity as their personal lives deteriorated.

IIRC, the old man was starving and could only take liquids. The only nutritional liquid available was Roseasharon’s breast.
Roseasharon’s baby had died, her breast was still giving milk, hence…

 
Comment by phillygal
2008-07-07 11:23:10

I pity the old fool who would even ATTEMPT a liplock on my boobie.

Great Depression or no

Old Man: I’m starving and I can only take liquids so pleez Rosasharon can I pretend I’m a newborn on your bresses?

Right. Rosasharon was a chump.

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 12:31:34

If you find that disgusting, you might want to look up Tamsen Donner and read of how she kept her kids fed after her husband died.

 
Comment by phillygal
2008-07-07 14:19:06

I’m guessing that’s to do with the Donner party…people eating people.

A PBS show last night described possible cannibalism among members of an ill-fated expedition to chart the Northwest Passage. It wasn’t the people-eating that freaked me out as much as the fact that four men survived six years stranded in the Artic circle before they finally croaked out. (mid nineteenth century)

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 10:45:20

Quit teasing about RV’s!

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Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 10:51:06

LOL!

Mine still has a full tank from when gas was under $3. Guess I should take it for a spin. Where’s my CB radio?

10-4, good buddy. :)

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 11:06:43

LOL, you’re a handful.

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 11:23:25

Bear, where exactly are you located, MT? WA?

Thought I’d come by your way if it’s not too far. :)

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 11:45:49

I’m in WA, just south of Olympia. How about you, whereabouts in UT?

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 12:03:35

I’m actually in W. Colorado now. Grand Junction. Just moved over here, miss Utah already. This proves I went insane over there. :)

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 12:11:57

LOL. I don’t know much about that area, so I can’t be sure about the accuracy of your self diagnosis! Thinking of hitting the road, are you?

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-07 12:16:27

Just checking out pics of Grand Junction and my gawd does that place look hot. You wouldn’t happen to be part reptile, would you? ;)

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-07-07 12:47:35

It gets hot. Not my fav place, but is actually cooler than where I moved from in SE Utah.

I just got a job at the dino museum here, if I can figure out where the place is.

We’re going out to one of the quarries to dig in the heat pretty soon, so if I disappear it’s because I melted. :)

 
 
 
Comment by betamax
2008-07-07 09:08:17

These idiots never understood why prices shot up in the first place, so they imagine it could happen again any time. It’s a mystery to them.

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-07-07 10:35:33

This is absolutely correct.
The only thing they know for sure is that they HELOCed out everything they possibly could on the way up.
Now that’s it’s on the way back down, they don’t know what to do.
Sell the silver and gold, try to sell the ATC boat, and canary, miss payments, steal, burgle, embezzle, cancel the cable, whine and moan; all are popular responses to the situation.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-07-07 08:38:07

Several years ago, I read that most home remodeling projects don’t recoup their cost. The best ROI, if you can call it that, was on a kitchen remodel, which brought back 90 cents of every dollar put into it.

Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 08:47:51

Arizona Slim,

And the former owner should be happy to get back 90 cents on the dollar! After all at least he/she/they got to enjoy it all that time? I’d love to get back to living in an America where people stay in their homes longer ( a LOT longer ) and base their decisions more on what THEY like rather than what the prospective buyer might like.

I can’t speak for others but any time I look at listings it’s like viewing the same listing time and again! Absolutely NO originality and that “prep’d to flip” look. Obviously the used house salesman have affected the sellers mindset so completely these FB’s are scared to do anything else! Looks like it’s working out just great, huh?

Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 08:57:48

Same here. When I look at properties and I see the words like “recently renovated” or “remodeled,” or descriptions such as stainless steel applicances and granite countertops I immediately know it is some HGTV moron trying to make a buck off of a sucker, and cross it off the list.

You know its really going to be bad if they talk about “designer colors.” Who in the hell cares about paint color other than marks. Painting to match my furniture is the first thing I do when I buy a house, and it costs very little.

If you see a house that is staged, run like hell, or offer 50% less for the insult.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 09:59:34

Tim,

No question. There may have been a few gems in the heap but for the most part they’re simply not worth rummaging through. In many cases with most everything either installed incorrectly or cobbled together it won’t be long before the new owner will have problems with the fake hardwood flooring warping over uneven subfloors, cabinets that won’t stay closed and garage door openers that have a mind of their own?

It’s just not worth it.

 
 
Comment by Wickedheart
2008-07-07 10:12:06

There are worse things than lack of originality, like a complete lack of taste. It’s worse too when it’s reflected in things that are expensive or labor intensive to change. Also it seems wasteful to me to have to rip out perfectly good tile and I don’t want to pay extra for their lack of taste. Sometimes it would be better if they just left it alone.

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Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 08:52:05

That was several years ago, where most projects returned 80%. Then came HGTV math where renovation projects return at least 200 cents on the dollar, of course the math course was sponsored by Lowes and Home Depot. The two most glaring flaws are (i) most of these shows intentionally hide the fact they they are not including professional labor costs, and (ii) most do it yourself projects look like crap and are more of liability than an asset. I know I certainly dont want tile and cabinets installed by someone who was doing it for the first time, or even the 5th.

Comment by wolfgirl
2008-07-07 08:57:07

The only person who does any upgrades to our house is my husband. He does anything but roofing. We hired that,

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Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-07-07 09:01:30

Hanley Wood, a publisher of building info, contributed handily to this fiction.

Link.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 09:11:59

Tim,

I agree. In fact on several episodes of those shows I caught they’d show the “finished product” and it was nothing like the flippers planned or discussed? Also there were times when you could see they had to bring in professional help.

Anyone that’s torn out bathroom tile and drywall more than once isn’t thrilled by choking on dust along with cuts and scrapes. Only “boot camps” get excited by that. I’ve done just about everything to a house that *can be done and I’ve long ago decided what’s worth the savings and what’s better to farm out to complete. Most seasoned homeowners have made these judgements long ago.

They also know this isn’t a bad time to get those nagging projects done b/c so many trades people are sucking for work right now.

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Comment by packman
2008-07-07 09:03:39

Like anything, there are a number of factors. For remodeling the two main factors are:

1. How out of date and decrepit were the previous fixtures/flooring, etc? Replacing items that are more out-of-date and more torn up gives better ROI than replacing more recent things that aren’t in so bad a shape.

2. Who does the work and how much do they get paid? Paying a full-time licensed contractor to do the work costs much more than an unlicensed handyman, which costs much more than doing it yourself.

Bottom line is - you can’t apply some generalization number like 80% or whatever to remodeling ROI. It depends on the factors.

Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 09:19:22

packman,

Exactly. In cases where… the spare bathroom fell off the house, just putting it back increases value! I know that sounds a little flippant but I definitely get your point. I can’t imagine what it was like for many of these kids b/c their parents were in a constant state of “improving” the home?

I get a kick when my daughters have memories of “that AWFUL wallpaper” etc! At least we waited until it was scrolling off the wall before we DID something about it? Look at how much was replaced over the last several years b/c someone thought it didn’t contribute to resale value? The sheer amount wasted of resources is staggering.

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Comment by Housing Wizard
2008-07-07 10:21:14

Wouldn’t it of been nice for Home Depot and the real estate groups had they convinced people that they needed to change over their decorating and appliances every 5 to 7 years . This is something that they do in the fashion industry . Convince people that everything is outdated and you simply must home improve to be in fashion . This is silly considering the cost of re-decorating .Also ,this concept that you could just keep refinancing every 2 to 4 years was another concept put out by a industry that wanted non-stop suckers who had no clue about the real cost of money and refinancing .

Another thing that really gets my goat is how the sales people want the seller to spend money and change their furniture to
their taste to get a sale . A buyer isn’t buying the furniture and any salesman who can’t sell around the current furniture and point out the bones of a house is a bad sales person . The real estate industry wants everything to be easy for them and they don’t care if they give people bad advice that cost them a lot of money that they will never get back .

Make the home clean and de-clutter, and maybe paint ,but don’t expect to get your money back from any home improvements ,especially in a market like this . Better to offer a lower price than to do a lot of cr-p that is taste specific .

 
Comment by Tim
2008-07-07 10:38:39

I think planned obsolescence was one of the main goals of HGTV, and it worked beautifully. Millions of ppl discarding white appliances for black, then stainless steel, etc. Counters going from Corian, to granite to concrete. What a waste.

 
Comment by oxide
2008-07-07 10:43:38

I can’t tell you the number of realtor.com listings that say “new paint” or “neutral paint, ” “newER roof,” “newER appliances” “Pergo flooring.” Do buyers even know that Pergo is fake wood? One glance at the kitchen will tell me if it’s a flip.

 
 
 
 
Comment by mikey
2008-07-07 09:44:34

“‘I’m redoing the bathrooms, but I’m not touching the kitchen until the value goes up again,’ she said. ‘I think that will happen sooner or later

About as smart as seeing an open seat in one of the Titanic’s lifeboats and grabbing an anchor and leaping in :)

 
 
Comment by packman
2008-07-07 08:08:08

“Meanwhile, the flood of foreclosures has clogged the court system so badly it sometimes takes a year or more for the bank or lender to take possession of the house.”

So given that they’re just now processing foreclosures that started a year ago, when the rate was 1/2 what it currently is - what’s that say?

Court clerk has got to be the single most secure job in the country right now.

Comment by climber
2008-07-07 08:58:40

I wonder if the banks are going to start suing the local courts for the losses incurred by such a long delay.

The constitution guarantees access to the courts.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-07-07 09:56:53

Actually the court system here in Hillsborough County has just laid off staff.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2008-07-07 10:33:54

Another byproduct of the fake housing market is a denial of speedy Justice because of crammed under-staffed Courts .

All the horrible things we use to predict would happen years ago are all happening . The greedy market making machine had no concern about all the ill-effects from their real estate Ponzi-Scheme . And to think the politicians want to bail out the criminals and do do brains that did this to our society . It’s just absurd .

 
 
 
Comment by az_lender
2008-07-07 08:14:38

“I’m afraid [prices] will start going up again.” — This is one case in which what she regards as caution is in fact the opposite.

“condos as low as $37K” — Sounds good, but if the rest of the so-called owners stop paying their dues, the upkeep of a whole association could get kind of expensive.

Comment by turnoutthelights
2008-07-07 08:25:08

It strikes me that the ‘buy now’ mentality is still out there - and while these second wave loanowners may just survive coming price declines, their collective stories of buying way too soon will continue to affect future buyers. Showing up with champagne? That agent just went off her Raman diet.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-07-07 08:28:13

A UHS with a bottle of champagne; ’surprise! UFB’

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 08:44:54

” … and while these second wave of loanowners may just survive coming price declines, their collective stories of buying way too soon will continue to affect future buyers.”

Not as long as “it’s a good time to buy”.

Any price drop will be considered by knifecatchers as the final price drop because prices cannot possibility go any lower. There will always be numerous reasons strutted out to demonstrate why this is so.

Then knifecatchers will commit, and after doing so prices will drop lower still and once again the final bottom will be announced.

And on and on it will go until the FINAL final bottom is reached.

 
 
Comment by spike66
2008-07-07 08:35:17

The Fed’s Janet Yellen just published a speech on econ conditions in the US. Among other things, she expects housing prices to continue to fall well into 2009. Finally, the Fed is talking with some realism, but how many of these folks keep up with economic news… probably few.

http://www.frbsf.org/news/speeches/2008/0707.html

 
Comment by Neil
2008-07-07 08:55:10

The funny thing is that since there are so many homes and not enough knife catchers, at some point you will see a break away market.

I loved the touch of serving the FB champagne. It has the taste of irony…

Now at $37k for a condo, I think they’ll do ok. Even with a bankrupt HOA. Doesn’t 18X rent sound reasonable to you? Some bank took it in the shorts on that transaction.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 10:02:52

“I love the touch of serving the FB champagne. It has the taste of irony…”

As does the offer of a final cigarette to the condemned.

 
Comment by michael
2008-07-07 11:10:14

“I love the touch of serving the FB champagne. It has the taste of irony…”

i love the smell of foreclosure in the morning…

 
 
 
Comment by GotRocks
2008-07-07 08:33:15

““One four-bedroom home listed for sale at $3.75 million attracted a high bid of only $1.2 million. Another, a three-bedroom, fetched a $450,000 high bid, though it’s on the market for $2.15 million, according to Scott Powell, a Stuart-based appraiser who attended the auction.””

While I agree that auction prices will be somewhat lower than fair market values, these numbers are WAY lower. When I first got hooked on this blog (nearly 2 years ago), it was an auction in Naples that returned 50% to 60% of “market” value. Now we’re at 25% to 33% of “market” value.

One has to wonder what the owners think now, no doubt having been INSULTED by low-ball offers of, maybe 75%, of what they considered their precious piece of dirt, rock, and wood shavings to be worth.

Comment by A.B. Dada
2008-07-07 08:50:14

Auction prices don’t really set a realistic “market” value anyway, because they’ve got some limitations in reach of demand:

1. Only those who know of the auction go.
2. They’re generally held on one day only.
3. The only people who can bid are those who attend (of course you can have a proxy on-site).

I’ve bid on quite a few properties at auctions, have won a bunch, and never ended up getting the properties because they were below the reserve price. I’ve had MORE than one auctioneer call me back to ask me to bump my price up. “So someone else bid higher than me?” No. “So why would I raise my bid? I think I should lower it if they’re taking this long.”

I do believe that auctions are a great way to liquidate assets, especially at a no reserve auction, but I don’t really have faith that the price set is the absolute most realistic price based on supply and demand. Listing a home for “best off” over a period of 2-3 months and seeing what offers you get makes more sense sits it gives people time to browse, look at the property, appraise it, etc.

Comment by GotRocks
2008-07-07 09:25:27

True…but there’s also the flip side of auctions, where people caught up in the excitement overbid. Obviously none of that at this auction…which means that we’re quickly running out of potential future FBs…which means that the crash may have finally gotten serious.

Even given a 20% or so discount for being an auction, when you see reductions of 70% from the listing price, things are clearly getting interesting.

 
Comment by Chip
2008-07-07 17:34:21

We each look at it in our own way. I wouldn’t waste my time or gasoline attending an auction unless it is “no reserve” or unless the specific reserve amount is disclosed prior to my signing up, as in the minimum bid. I think all the rest are just hype and they tell me we still have a long way to go to reach the bottom.

 
 
 
Comment by BackToTheBank
2008-07-07 08:37:26

“‘(The price) is what made me decide,’ she said. ‘I’m afraid they are going to start going up again.’”

And why wouldn’t they go up again? I mean, spiraling gas prices, crashing banks, tight credit, rising unemployment would surely mean your condo’s price is going to go up again, right?

Comment by combotechie
2008-07-07 08:53:17

This price dip is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Buy now or be priced out forever.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-07-07 10:12:55

The article about Sun City Center reminded me of some relatives’ efforts in 2006 to sell the retirement-community home of an elderly parent who had died. It did not sell until there was capitulation provoked by many months of ongoing taxes, insurance, and maintenance fees. The inheritance visibly was shrinking with each passing month.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-07-07 10:23:37

If that’s the Sun City Center near Ruskin (and occasionally downwind of the coal-fired power plant in Apollo Beach), all I can say is yuck! A totally sterile setting where they chop down any tree as soon as it grows taller than the 1-story houses. They plant a new sapling of course, but still…

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-07-07 09:21:38

Does anybody speak Floridian?

What’s a ‘lanai’?

“In early June, she signed a $130,000 contract for a 1,500-square-foot house with two master bedrooms, a two-car garage and a lanai. The house had once listed for $200,000.”

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-07-07 09:32:57

It’s some kind of covered porch or gazebo.

 
Comment by walt
2008-07-07 09:35:23

A ‘lanai’ would be an attached screen patio or porch.

 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-07-07 09:35:54

it’s a screened porch they want to hang around your neck

 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-07-07 09:42:12

Lanai is more of a Hawaiian term and its simply a balcony or porch. Really nothing to be all that excited about!

Comment by aladinsane
2008-07-07 10:00:43

Due to current market conditions, why not call it a ‘poorch’?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-07-07 10:58:39

Because it’s a lanai and that means it’s Hawaiian, and that means it’s desirable, and everyone knows that Hawaii is desirable, and that means by association, this is also very desirable.

Get with the program, man!

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-07-07 11:17:05

Book it Danno!

 
Comment by zeropointzero
2008-07-08 08:44:25

Because “our lanai overlooking the freshwater canal” sounds sooooo much better than “our porch near the ditch/mosquito-breeding facility”

 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-07 10:11:37

Properly done they can be wonderful, but the nicest ones “I’ve” seen were all in the Philippines. Simple and usually surrounded by a garden the women occupy it in the morning, children in the afternoon and the men cook/drink there in the evening. Great outdoor flexibility for a number of activities.

When I go to build my ret./vacation home it will have about 600 s/f of actual enclosed space and the rest will be a lanai! Besides when you have a very small home, neighbors/friends quickly realize it gets crowded in there quick. ( Much better to just stay outside ) so you don’t get the traffic/wear a bigger home gets. If the lanai gets trashed, just come through with a garden hose!

 
Comment by rusty
2008-07-07 10:53:09

keeps the leaves and skeeters out of the pool! The house we are trying to rent does not have one, so we are bashing the owner over the head trying to get him to lower the rent over it.

 
 
Comment by Steve W
2008-07-07 10:50:19

I was really kind of hoping “lanai” meant that the house came with a small island in the pacific with some good golf courses.

 
 
Comment by SoldierRenter
2008-07-07 09:26:34

Went to an open house Sunday in Riverview and I have to say that prices are dropping but the credit spigot still hasn’t shut off. We are looking in the 300-350K price range with expectations of a nice house with at least a quarter acre. I am still seeing lots of young people looking at these homes that shouldn’t be in this price range. Just as young soldiers drive the expensive sports car or Lexus now, some of these young couples with a young child don’t appear to ‘know’ a lot like the people on this blog. I know prices will drop further next year even with the devaluation of the dollar but we have really trained this new generation to buy a monthly note instead of a price. Everytime a salesman tries to sell me a note, I tell them I’m only interested in the bottom line price. In fact, a realtor told me that she would get a point shaved off the interest rate rather than lower the price. I told her I only buy the price as I can purchase my own points. Anyway….just a rambling observation.

Comment by baabaabooie
2008-07-07 09:45:45

Its no different in buying cars. So many people walk into a dealership and talk about payment. Its absurd this is exactly what the dealer wants and he/she will play all sorts of games to “give you the payment you want”.

Always discuss price never tell how you are paying usually better just to bring a check once price is agreed. Even when leasing. Dont tell them your leasing until you agree on a price.

 
Comment by Ed G
2008-07-07 09:59:36

SoldierRenter,

Let me tell you, I have spent a lot of time trying to talk my army brother out of buying a brand new car. He’s got a year’s worth of deployed pay saved up, and he’s most likely going to blow it on a new car when he gets back. Its really hard to get through to him, he seems to only see right now, not anything in the future. I guess not being able to drive around base is a real problem for him…

While I love that the Army takes care of its own with regards to housing and food and such, it would probably be a boon to him to have to pay for these resposibilities himself so he knew better how to budget his money.

Comment by SoldierRenter
2008-07-07 11:54:14

Ed G
You are spot on. I describe myself as a liberal libertarian because I know I am benefiting from the ultimate socialist system and I needed to keep at least an internal consistency. The military tells you when to wake up, what to do and gives you a tremendous amount of disposable income. My son is an E6 and God bless him, he has no clue how much he is paid compared to a similar high school graduate on the outside. He’s 24 and brings in nearly 50K with no bills and no obligations. I’ve tried to make good citizens of my children but my frugality didn’t make it against society’s “Cribs” lifestyle.

Comment by Chip
2008-07-07 17:38:59

E6 is not bad for a 24-year-old. Reminds me of the fast promotions during ‘Nam.

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Comment by wmbz
2008-07-07 10:11:46

“Victims” More added every day…

“When the onslaught began last year, many of those defaulting on mortgages were ‘flippers.’ But more recently, people receiving foreclosure notices are victims of the economy — they have lost a job or can’t afford gas and still make the house payments, said Shannan Buttner, whose company, based in Umatilla, delivers foreclosure notices.”

 
Comment by ChrisInBirmingham
2008-07-07 12:39:37

“Reggie Capiro worries about the blemish a foreclosure will leave on his record. The lease on his car is almost up, and he fears he won’t be able to qualify for a new vehicle.”

This guy is classic. He’s borrowed himself into some horrible financial realities and yet here he is concerned about his ability to borrow even more.

We, Americans, really need a serious reality check and stop living by our FICO scores and more by what we make and can afford. Guys like Reggie probably have 1 or 2 bankruptcies before he finally wakes up, probably right when he is ready to retire…lol.

Comment by Gatorfan
2008-07-07 13:11:23

Not only is he planning driving a car he obviously can not afford, but he plans on leasing. Can you imagine how much money guys like this waste over a lifetime, especially after considering the time-value of money?

I like this video by Dave Ramsey that shows how much people’s foolishness with cars cost them in a lifetime:

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/lms/drive_free/player.cfm

Comment by ChrisInBirmingham
2008-07-07 14:03:08

Love Dave Ramsey! I’ve never caught this video. Excellent, of course. Thanks for sharing.

 
 
 
Comment by Dan
2008-07-07 12:54:15

Quote: “In early June, she signed a $130,000 contract for a 1,500-square-foot house with two master bedrooms, a two-car garage and a lanai. The house had once listed for $200,000.”

$130k for 1500 sq.ft. = $87 per sq. ft. Close to the $80/sq.ft. I called 2 years ago as being the approximate “bottom”. Unfortunately, I don’t think that most places have come down to these prices yet.

When we start to see deals like this being the normal, we’ll be at the point where you should buy instead of rent.

I still think that $80/sq.ft. is a good figure. We just need to start seeing that in the 2000-3000 sq.ft. range. When I can get a 2500 sq.ft. house with 3 bedrooms in a good neighborhood for $200k In Boca Raton, I’ll know the correction is complete or near completion.

 
Comment by Ann
2008-07-07 13:52:35

The real story..is that foreclosure house in Florida a real bargain?

http://www.bcpa.net..

SHORT SALES, FORECLOSURES, ASSESSMENTS AND YOUR 2008 TAXES.

If you purchase a property in a foreclosure or short sale, your actual purchase price may not reflect the just (market) value used for determining your taxes. Instead, Florida law requires our office to use the reasonable market price of a sale of similar homes in your neighborhood (or a similar area) sold under normal financial conditions to determine the assessment. Regardless of your 2008 purchase price, assessments in Florida are done a year in arrears. This means your 2008 assessment is based on the sales in your neighborhood (excluding foreclosures, short sales and non-arm’s length transactions) between January 2, 2007 and January 1, 2008.

Comment by Dan
2008-07-07 16:14:18

Screw that! No way I’d by a foreclosure not knowing what the taxes will be before hand. The city better be up front with that or no deal!

 
Comment by Chip
2008-07-07 17:42:19

This is exactly what is screwing the Florida resale market and why most of my looking is out-of-state. It could be solved a lot quicker if people could be taught to vote against any and all incumbents, but they can’t. I think the Florida economy is pretty close to doomed.

 
 
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