The Housing Bubble

what I’m seeing (both in US and Europe) is loads of people who have lived way beyond their means for years, and probably will continue to do so (especially regarding their home) without ever paying for it. Someone has to live there if they stop paying the mortgage, and politicians will do what they can to keep the voters happy. Debtors are a majority these days.

If the system crashes, I’m sure the debts will be forgiven somehow as there is no way to get these people to pay off their debt anyway. In my country you can get rid of any debt within 3 years, you just have to live on the minimum wage during that period and hand in all extra income; but you can keep your car, all your toys and even a few thousands of cash.

The relatively small group of savers has been punished for years by negative real rates and (for those prudent enough NOT to buy a home) surging home prices. In some US areas it seems home prices are on track to attain normal levels again within 1-2 years, but in Europe that is impossible after price increases of 500-1000% in several countries.

Good post, nhz…what country are you in again?

nhz is in the Netherlands, or Holland.

Serf’s Up, let’s go hang 10

“We are not retreating - we are advancing in another Direction.”
— Douglas MacArthur

Can you advance towards a retreat?

Only if it’s Catholic

Most of the non-tax payers are living like kings after their writeoffs and hiding their income overseas.

Go after them….. with gusto.

Who uses the yellow pages anymore these days. I certainly dont want to keep a book on my desk thats plastered with advertising for sleezy lawyers. The phone company really messed up there advertising franchise by putting ads everywhere.

You have internet obviously. Google coin dealers in the Valley. Um…Originally, I’m from Fresno, but haven’t bought coins in that city for decades. Anyhow I recommend avoiding rare coins and go for bullion. That means check out http://www.usmint.gov and look for its links to certified coin dealers that sell Buffalos, Eagles, and so forth. Then find web sites of those dealers nearest you. Finally check their references that they are in ANA and other numismatics organizations.

I buy rare coins occasionally - those are MS-65 Saint Gaudens. You think bullion is volatile, well rare coins are far more volatile. The best time to buy a Saint Gaudens MS-65 was in 2001. Stick to bullion for now.

I think interest rates will have to go up double digits. But while the ten year T-note is below 4% it’s save to keep buying some gold a little at a time. Above 4% I would think about holding. At 8% I would sell.

Remember, markets operate in cycles. This is the same with precious metals. I think there are several more years of upsides on precious metals, based on the incredible level of stupidity in both of the political parties running our country (nutcase Democrat Congress and the idiot Shrub in the White House). They are making the credit bubble worse with their ever increasing bailouts. Those are inflationary.

Make slow moves in investing, that way emotion will not govern you.

If you expect the banking system to steward your gold for you in the middle of a financial crisis, you are missing the whole point of gold. Might as well buy T-bonds.

If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it.

check goldismoney.info for dealer reviews.

ditto for SamSung

Ditto for Microsoft and Yahoo.

The copycat business model is hardly a Chinese invention.

I used to work for a major aerospace manufacturer (aircraft), looking for a toehold in China.

Back in the early 90s, a whole bunch of them came over to begin a “partnership”. This consisted of being told by the PTB to let them make copies of EVERY DOCUMENT IN OUR DEPARTMENT, including some procedures that us drones at the shop lever had developed to improve work flow and/or decrease man/hours billed on specific projects.

This is when the light bulbs went off in our dumb country boy heads, that the typical upper management jackhole would sell his mother, if he thought it would do something to fill their pockets.

The good news is that us dumbsh#ts figured this out early, so:

-We didn’t bother to explain to them that the Maintenance Manuals are written by the company lawyers…..the Maintenance Manuals will get you there eventually, but there are more efficient ways of doing things.

-We stopped writing stuff down in company documents; started keeping it in our heads, or in our personal notes.

Rumor has it that this practice has become widespread in our industry. Heard a story about one of the major manufacturers wanted all their retiring engineers to turn in a report highlighting everything they had picked up, knowledge-wise, while troubleshooting aircraft avionics problems over their work history. Purpose: To start an “Expert System” (probably for the call center in Bangalore).

The reply was: “Screw you…….you guys aren’t screwing up my consulting job…..”

The secret to making Meissen Porcelain lasted just 7 years, as a secret is a story you tell one person at a time, then as now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissen_porcelain

Hey Gulfstream-fixer,

The kicker is that the client I contracted for has several first generation Asian Americans. They do exactly as you mention. They do not write down process or documentation. They remain employed. Those two sentences are tied together logically, huh? They don’t speak English well, nor write it well.

The bad thing - for them, is that they have expertise in only one area. No one else will hire them outside their expertise. When the big boss wakes up and realizes this, they will be back out on their pirate boats circling south China.

Right now, in our nation based upon looks, not performance…

They are deemed unsightly.

a bit similar to the situation with wind power I think. In my country (that owes much of its land and wealth to ancient windpower) windmills are currently considered an eyesore in the landscape, while all the far more ugly infrastructure for the electricity grid seems to be no problem at all (the electricity companies even boast about their ‘beautifully designed’ towers). However, the large power companies do like the biggest windmills (they are too expensive for individuals or small private enterprise). Clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

“Who decided it is an eyesore? ”

Same people that decided that Rosie O’Donut is an eyesore - pretty much everyone.

I’m not saying that solar panels are an eyesore. I’m saying that massive objects jutting out perpendicular to rooftops are an eyesore.

Additionally you don’t nearly get much surface area coverage in houses that face east or west, so you can put less solar panels on such rooftops.

Most people don’t realize that solar panels actually have a fairly short life span - only about 40-50 years. Given the energy to make and to destroy/recycle them (not to mention the environmental impact), and their relative inefficiency anyhow, solar panels in general are a lot more inefficient than most people think.

Don’t get me wrong - they are still efficient when used in the right context, and IMO should be used more than they are. I own stock in ESLR in fact, since I think the world is waking up to this, and solar will continue to grow for the foreseeable future. “The right context” though generally means:

- In residential applications - south-facing roofs mostly
- Homes in southern and/or sunny areas (e.g. not very helpful in Seattle etc.)
- Flat commercial buildings (solar panels are *way* underused in this context)
- Open land

40-50 year lifespan for solar panels inefficient - how does that compare to current new home construction in the US?
I guess they should make el cheapo panels with a 10 year lifetime to match

If these so-called “developers” would actually do some developing, they could orient the properties/lots to optimize the south exposure.
Same with the structure itself; even if solar was not initially incorporated in the house, lots of things can be designed in to minimize power consumption and/or make it easier to incorporate new technologies.

In residential applications - south-facing roofs mostly

I think it depends on the location. In Texas, I use the vast majority of my electricity in the summer running my air conditioner. A panel on the West facing portion of my roof would be better than one on the South face as I use natural gas for heat in the winter.

in the sixties the government promised my area in the Netherlands free electricity for life if they accepted a nuclear power plant; they said electriciy meters would be removed from all homes. The plant was built, but the electricity is still not free (in fact, we have the highest rates in the country).
Dutch government is pushing for a second nuclear reactor in the area now and I don’t doubt they will promise free electricity or billions in other favors again (without ever making good on these promises, of course). With all the nice talk about how safe and environmentally friendly nuclear is, I don’t understand why they don’t build the stuff near Amsterdam or The Hague where most of the users and the politicians are

How do they hold up in hailstorms?

I assume you mean $200 a month in electicity.

How much did the panels cost, including installation? Did you get any local or federal subsidies or tax breaks?

Finally, where are you located?

Congrats on going solar. I hope the efficiencies increase and more people can do it!

My friend installs solar systems and he’s got more business than you can shake a stick at, presently.

It went from being the right thing to do environmentally, to being the right thing to do economically.

Re solar panels… wind actually has a much better return on investment than solar panels (i.e. better KW per dollar invested) as long as you live in a region with a fair amount of breeze (oddly enough, even if you don’t feel that your area is breezy, above tree/house level there usually is some breeze). And weatherizing your house and putting various heat exchangers, etc., to capture waste heat has an even better ROI than wind.
Nuclear… I have a lot of knowledge about that particular field and I shift from being pro-nuclear to anti-nuclear and back on a regular basis. I think the only way to be a total booster (or a total detractor) is to either (1) be paid to have the opinion or (2) not know much about nuclear energy.
[BTW you'll never believe how much rigamarole you have to go through to buy just a few microcuries of plutonium...]

Is the govt responsible for paying the heating bills on those places? Hydro, water, etc too? I honestly don’t know much about section 8.

The mother of one of my son’s friends lives in section 8 housing and worries aboout her power bill. The son helps all he can.

The other day I posted my thought - that in reality the stock markets have been bubble territory since the mid-80’s. IMO the true value of the Dow is about 6,000 or so, and S&P at about 800. I think they’ll get down there, and may even overshoot some; short of some other bubble propping them up.

Along those lines, this was posted a couple of days later:

http://www.theonion.com/content/index/4429

I thought we were just warming up until we got under 10K. How many more weeks?

Wouldn’t hurt my feelings if the market went to zip. Then maybe shareholders in companies would be more interesting in company products, services, management and policies. The problem with the market as it stands now is that companies aren’t valued for what they offer to the public in the way of products or services, which is the real value.

I’m looking for the P/E of the S&P500 to go under 10 over the next year or so. That’s when I plan to come out of cash and go into stocks.

The problem with the market as it stands now is that companies aren’t valued for what they offer to the public in the way of products or services, which is the real value.

Amen!

Please send me details of this restaurant. pt_barnum_bank at the yahoo dot com. Thanks.

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING. It’ rare enough for any average person to make 60K a year by the time their 25. What planet are you living on?

At 25, most people who will ever make 60K or more are barely coming out of college, and loaded with debt for that to boot.

Most jobs that pay that much are in areas with astronomical living costs. I don’t care if the “wise saver” is yoda himself, you’re not saving a year’s salary a year after coming out of college.

Unless someone else paid for college…..

You do realize that median family income in the US is under 50K right? and that’s BEFORE taxes, rent/mortgage, energy, food, and everything else you need to live.

Please enlighten us as to how, on 48K, even the WISEST PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE could possibly save up 60K by the time they’re 25 or 28?

Please enlighten us as to how, on 48K, even the WISEST PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE could possibly save up 60K by the time they’re 25 or 28?

Asia and Europe have high savings rates* because a lot of kids live with their parents. In many cases, after getting married. In Asia at least, they cover their share of the bills.

* Note that I’m not commenting on whether high savings rates are a good idea - it simply means their asset bubbles are bigger than ours. They don’t really make more money - their savings merely accumulate faster, making for asset bubbles that have to be seen to be believed. This is why the Japanese stock market is less than 1/3 of its high two decades ago, and the real estate market is 1/10 of its high two decades ago. The problem, as always, is too much savings chasing too few profitable investment opportunities.

In fact, the really unfortunate thing is that some of that foreign money has fed our asset bubbles over the last several years. But in truth, most of that foreign money stayed home - I wouldn’t be surprised if their bubbles were even bigger than ours.

“In fact, the really unfortunate thing is that some of that foreign money has fed our asset bubbles over the last several years. But in truth, most of that foreign money stayed home - I wouldn’t be surprised if their bubbles were even bigger than ours.”

If it were not for foreign moneys coming into this country and buying US Treasuries our real interest rates would be about 5% higher. Americans are not buying US Treasuries, buyers are China, India, Brazil, Russia, Norway, Abu Dhabi, UAE etc. etc. etc. The artificially low interest rates on our treasuries added fuel to our bubbles.

Americans are not buying US Treasuries

I’m afraid that’s untrue. Americans own more Treasuries than every foreign country holder added together. In addition, a sizable chunk of that “foreign” money may come from Americans evading taxes via investments in offshore bank accounts and hedge funds.

If it were not for foreign moneys coming into this country and buying US Treasuries our real interest rates would be about 5% higher.

I wouldn’t be so sure that real interest rates would have been 5% higher - a lot of people invested in the stock market precisely because Treasury rates were so low. Higher rates might have attracted more savings into CD’s and more domestic money into Treasuries. Besides, the principal benefit of higher interest rates is that a housing bubble of this magnitude would never have formed. Still, the only way to have kept foreign money out would have been to put in foreign exchange controls, which introduce a whole different set of economic distortions and aren’t really an option for a country with the world’s reserve currency. It’s just as well - in future, foreigners who have been burned by our internet and credit bubbles (via MBS’s and ABS’s) will learn to be a little more careful before they invest in American assets.

At the same time, I can also see why they do it anyway. Their domestic bubbles are probably way bigger than ours. Net-net, at the peak of the 80’s Japanese asset mania, the Japanese were better off investing in American real estate than investing in Japanese real estate - many broke even at best in US real estate, but lost their shirts in Japanese real estate.

Professor…

Put yourself in the position of a foreigner that has been getting whacked not only on his Dollar-denominated investments, but also gets to watch our stock market collapse, as an added bonus?

And you think they’ll be eager to do more of the same?

I agree with aladinsane, it all looks different (more complicated) from a Euro perspective. I often get whacked on my precious metal stocks despite very nice nominal gains, as a result of dollar exchange losses etc. We not only have to guess where the stocks are going, but also where the dollar/euro rate is going.

nhz…

You bring up a VERY Important fact.

Gold hasn’t done much in Euro terms vs. the Greenback, and the going is getting plenty weird across the pond, a place where Gold has traditionally been the fallback position, financially.

Imagine the contango, when Gold starts going up in Euro terms and takes off like a rocket in Dollars?

The last 4 posts in this thread (since my post) supports dollar cost averaging, buying a little at a time in diverse investments (gold, T-bills, savings bonds, notes, stocks). But then I get flack. I’ve been doing this for 8 years in all those areas.

The worst scenario almost never occurs. Julian Simon is the name of the man people need to google.

If all factors stay the same, we are SCREWED - BIG TIME.

Problem for us pessimists, - One or more of the factors changes. Then we have morning in America.

What do you all really know about these companies that merely add another layer between you and your money?

It’s the same sort of blind faith being practiced on Wall Street…

Trust yourself, instead.

Alad, NHZ was inquiring about where to buy gold outside of holding physical, as I interpreted it at any rate.
goldmoney was started by James Turk, a reknown gold guru and analyst. I do have some funds with them but a very small amount as a percentage of my net worth.
The deal with Goldmoney is that the client has the choice of locations for storage of their physical, either Viamat (a well known/respected storage/vault) in London, Zurich or New York. Audits are done bi-annually by a well known accounting firm and the deposit is insured by Lloyd’s of London. Goldmoney deals in 4 currencies in order to avoid having to incur exchange charges at the originating bank. They charge a fixed percentage to buy and sell but VERY SMALL storage fees. All in all, while not perfect, it is as well organized a system as one could envision.
You yourself have said several times that your gold is overseas so clearly you are in conflict with your earlier statement about holding physical.
It’s my opinion only, but I don’t feel it safe to hold one’s eggs all in one location. Goldmoney is a very good diversification strategy for those who have a large amount of capital to deploy into gold and are looking for different long term holding locations. I wouldn’t put it all into any one location and this applies to goldmoney as well. I have a swiss bank holding and I can assure you that they charge me a large multiple of what goldmoney charges me for both storage and purchases. I highly recommend goldmoney but of course do your own research. Oh, you can also buy silver now through goldmoney. Hope this helps.

Auger - I’ve thought about goldmoney as well. Just curious - do they allow you to see and/or extract your physical gold?

Also - what are you guys’ plans for logistics if this gold is needed? Do you plan to move yourself and family to these other countries, or to extract the gold and bring it to the U.S.? If the latter - how do you plan to get it through customs? They have rules about transporting significant quantities do they not? (Rules which if the SHTF are likely to get much more restrictive).

I’ve been hesitant to store any physical gold overseas. Seems like Canada would be a better non-U.S. location.

(P.S. Apologies to Ben for this tangent - maybe it’s time to spin back up the M&M blog!)

Packman, it’s my understanding that you can in fact take delivery of your gold. Although I believe it has to be in 400oz increments, not sure. Just go to the web site and all the questions are answered there. Otherwise you can email them with a question from the site if you have one not answered.

If gold was not available for purchase here in the US then I would probably consider having it shipped back, assuming legally that wasn’t a problem.
The whole point of overseas storage surrounds that of confiscation. Canada has pretty close ties with the US and perhaps may go along with the theft. If you are not concerned with confiscation then there are lots of storage options here in the US.
Switzerland has a long standing reputation of banking privacy as well as supporting depositors. Obviously this can change in the future. There isn’t any fool proof way except to take physical possession and hide it, which I recommend for at least part of your holdings.

“Switzerland has a long standing reputation of banking privacy as well as supporting depositors.”

Ask the 20,000 people who are now in danger of being audited by the IRS, how much they like their UBS Swiss Bankers?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/29/ubs.banking

Gee, why is everyone interested in Gold now… and these are HBB types. think when part of the sheeple will get interested… Gold has a history to be able to explode… make sure you have your own rocket to ride!
Tutto

I don’t buy mail order. I take cash into the dealer’s shop, don’t sign any papers, leave them the cash they verified in their green counting machines, and walk out with my Eagles. I throw out the invoice, BTW.

It costs me just the amount of time to open a checking account. I don’t pay safe deposit box fees. I have only to keep a minimum amount of $ in my checking accounts.

Thanks.

On a side note, I saw your, shall I say tirade?, about CPA’s the other day, and specifically what you called “snitch fees”. I’m curious if you would elaborate on that? Obviously you’ve had a bad experience with one or more accountants…

One reason that I’m interested, is that I am currently working on an accounting degree and intend to get my CPA once the schooling is done. During my education, “ethics” has been a significant focus, but generally I haven’t been told anything that would indicate an accountant should “snitch.” In fact, while they do encourage an accountant not to do business with a client who is, for example, evading taxes, client confidentiality is still a priority even in such a case and client information should only be shared in specific examples out of the control of the accountant, such as a subpeona (and also some other times not really related to this discussion like peer review).

But that’s all academic…my personal view is that while an accountant doesn’t have the legal protection provided to a lawyer with regard to client confidentiality (e.g. attorney-client privilage) I would tend to practice in a manner as close to that as legally possible.

However, accountants are quickly taught that there is no place for morals in accounting.

Something may be morally wrong, but as long as its legal, its A-OK.

I can buy that, mostly anyway. It’s a personal judgement thing. I wouldn’t outright lie even if it were legal, but I won’t necessarily reveal everything I know to a counter party of my client (e.g. if it’s within the bounds of the law, not reveal things about the condition of a building unless my client specifically says to do so. If asked specifically about the condition by the other person I would simply state that they should get their own inspection done and make clear I am not a reliable source to determine if the condition of the biulding is up to their standards). If I represent someone, I’m going to do so as vigorously as possible, within the bounds of law, personal ethics and professional requirements (the AICPA can pull a license for certain behavior).

My feeling is, when involved for example in some contractual process, it is up to the other person to protect his interest and it’s up to my client (and me by extension) to protect our interests, that includes any knowledge that might provide a competitive advantage.

Mostly, I just wanted to know what Dada was referring to with “snitch fees” and where the feelings about accts came from.

bluprint, I have my own business and think that CPAs provide a valuable service in navigating a corrupt environment, and you shouldn’t second guess your career choice if it makes you happy. CPAs are like lawyers…in an ideal world without a dysfunctional IRS you wouldn’t need one, but they more than pay for themselves in the non-ideal world in which we are forced to operate.

“The majority of the rental stock around here seems to be those behemoth houses, and the standard rent for those is between $1200 and $1450. AS IF!!”

Wow! I’m paying way more than that for my less than stellar quality rental in the home of low housing costs. (Upstate NY) Look what they charge to rent the McMansions:

http://syracuse.craigslist.org/apa/755207175.html

$3500 / 4br

Beautiful 3600 sq. ft home (5 years old) on over 1 wooded acre in “Parade of Homes” neighborhood - huge master suite with sitting room - 3 car garage - 3 1/2 bathrms. - fine detail throughout- 2 subzero refrigerators - 5 burner gas stove - double Wolfe ovens - large swimming pool - wonderful wooded lot - excellent Fay-El school district - minimum one year lease - option to buy

I found this when I was looking up the link to the $2700/mo SFH rental.

Palmy - they are dropping a lot in Orlando, too - my wife showed me a house in Heathrow - huge upscale guard-gated yuppieville, that sold for close to 30% off peak, and prices are still falling. Speaking of which, I haven’t heard much about yuppies lately. Am posting on the SOH “Gotcha” below - hopefully I’m not duplicating.

30 gpm

p.s.

“The shortage of fresh water on planet Earth is likely to become the biggest problem ever during the forthcoming decades. Experts from the International Water Management Institute said in their recent report that the water crisis in the world would occur because of the growing number of population.”

“According to the UN, the population of planet Earth will grow from 6 to 8.5 billion people by 2030. One person living in an industrially developed country consumes up to 3,000 liters of water a year. If the global population grows by 2.5 billion, it will be necessary to find additional 2,000 cubic kilometers of water for their living.”

“The global consumption of water has increased six times during the recent 100 years and will double by 2050. There are countries that have already run out of water reserves for the production of their food. The shortage of fresh water will inevitably boost prices on this resource,” the Director of the International Water Management Institute, Frank Rijsberman said.”

http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/15-07-2008/105784-water-0

Here in Tampa we have the rest of July, August and September. Possibly part of October, too. Then it is cool until May, June.

In nearly every case historically, a beaten down public initially welcomes hyper-inflation, as it “seems” like they are doing better…

I too expect the US gov’t to default in my lifetime, but in the short term their paper is relatively safe.

I’d hate to define exactly how long “short term” is, if I was holding rectangular pieces of paper with revolutionists on them.

“These politicians are no better than Joe Goebbels and his propaganda spewing henchmen.”

And most probably don’t know who he was nor why being compared to him might not be a compliment. Stark reality will eventually overcome their best efforts to deceive.

I think he might be confused and thinking about Formosa.

He loses it with me on two counts: He’s saying the future is China. Why worry about us if we’re the past?

Also, a part of democracy is persistance (you know, “the price of freedom is eternal vilgilance” thing) and working on social/economic conditions as they exist in the now. It is not the path to riches, although for many people it can be. It looks to me like he choose riches above freedom.

As far as Singapore is concerned, you may want to remember that Tibet has never been part of greater China either. Singapore is a whole island of Chinese that escaped when the communists took over. What’s worse, they are doing better than than the mainland. It looks bad. China has thousands of years invested in saving face. I’m pretty sure as soon as Chinese believe they have the upper hand, it will be Chinese territory.

The truth is I like alot of the Chinese I’ve met and alot of their culture. If you want to move to some place because you like it or would like to make money there, I’m all for it. However, I can’t say as I’m able to take someone seriously who has ditched America but will continue to keep complaining about it on Bloomberg.

I think you’re getting Singapore confused with Taiwan.

You might want to look at a map. I do not think Singapore is where you think it is.

Does Singapore recognize its citizens’ right to keep and bear arms? No. There, test over. My gold is not safe in Singapore.

Singapore is a whole island of Chinese that escaped when the communists took over. What’s worse, they are doing better than than the mainland. It looks bad. China has thousands of years invested in saving face. I’m pretty sure as soon as Chinese believe they have the upper hand, it will be Chinese territory.

Singapore used to be run by the Malays (a minority in Singapore who also populate Southern Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines). It was conquered by a succession of European powers (Portuguese, Dutch followed by a swap with the Brits in the 19th century) starting in the 16th century, who imported ethnic Chinese and Indian laborers into the territory to work in mining and agriculture because of what they perceived as native Malay languor. Today’s Singapore is roughly 70% ethnic Chinese, but most of the population is at least 4 generations removed from China. While ancient China has claimed the kingdoms of Far East - what they called Nanyang - (and perhaps the entire known world) as Chinese tributary states (like Tibet, Korea and Vietnam), the modern Chinese state has no claim to Singapore. Except for the entire South China Sea which surrounds it and the countries of South East Asia.

I can get that tune out of tour head if you remember (Henery the eigth)

I`m Angelo the mortgage man
Angelo the mortgage man I am
I gave a mortgage to the widow next door
and she`d been refied several times before
and everyone was a teaser rate
TEASER RATE
but now she says she didn`t understand
when she got her loans from Angelo
Angelo the mortgage man

second verse same as the first

A couple of beauties there, jeff…

Thanks!

Gee Joey,
Don’t the banks have overdraft charges in that great state of Caley-fornee-ah?

CarrieAnn.. yeah there are overdraft charges.
I admit i’m not experienced with coaxing money from a dry bank account, but i think it’ll cost you around $40 to squeeze the $40 you don’t have from a machine.

I was speaking in reference to the panic withdrawls and aladinsane’s false claim that ” Yesterday, IndyMac turned off their ATM machines, not allowing people access to their cash..

Fast-cash for emergency grocery money wasn’t on my mind.

I should have said scattered reports of ATM’s not working, combined with many ATM’s not giving the customers a receipt showing their balance left in the bank.

Besides, if you had $100k in IndyMac, what good was an ATM gonna do you anyway, over the weekend?

You’d still be in the hole $99k

aladinsane.. was that an excuse?

Look.. Your job as a gold bug is to generate maximum panic in all things political and economic. Spreading lies are and rumors is perfectly permissable.
Don’t go soft on us.. and don’t allow yourself to be sidetracked by my comments.

I read an article yesterday that said ATM’s for IndyMac weren’t working, and after researching that article, I came to a different conclusion.

Call me a flip-flopper if you’d like.

Yeah thats cute how you characterize the vast majority of people as “leftists” who know that “privatizing” SS is just another means of offloading that obligation and turning it into another supply side casino scam. A majority of republicans and most Democrats all oppose it because it is a stupid idea. Only the extremist nuts and those who can profit from it propose such blatant thievery.

Here… direct your attention to what a real republican President stated in 1953:

“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance…labor laws and farm programmes, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are…[a few] Texas Oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”

Dwight Eisenhower

bah.. you’re wasting your time. I been around way too long for the socialist rhetoric to have any effect.

You need to preach it to the impressionable young kids who will soon be “donating” half their income towards supporting retirees.. They need reassurance that it’s the right thing to do.

Yeah… Ike was a real “socialist”. lmao. Socialist, leftist, communist. What a broken record. When one can’t back up their rhetoric, they backpedal.

Job well done Brownie.

Where Are the Customers’ Yachts?
by Fred Schwed
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Customers-Yachts-Street-Marketplace/dp/0471119784

Written in 1940, but is timeless…well worth the $4.

“Privatizing SS is a great idea, long overdue.”

And you think bank stocks are cheap, ROTFLMAO. Faded

doh!! nuevo peso - you fool!

1,000 old Pesos = 1 new Peso

Care to apologize?
___________________________________________________

“Throughout most of the 20th century, the Mexican peso remained one of the most stable currencies in Latin America, since the economy did not experience periods of hyperinflation common to other countries in the region. However, after the Oil Crisis of the late 1970s, Mexico defaulted on its external debt in 1982 and experienced several years of inflation and devaluation until a government economic strategy called the “Stability and Economic Growth Pact” (Pacto de estabilidad y crecimiento económico, PECE) was adopted under President Carlos Salinas. On 1 January 1993, the Bank of Mexico introduced a new currency, the nuevo peso (”new peso”, or MXN), written “N$” followed by the numerical amount. One new peso, or N$1.00, was equal to 1000 of the obsolete MXP pesos”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso

p.s

Many of you don’t understand why there are so many Mexicans that have come to our country in the past 20 years, so let me explain it to you…

If you were a middle-class Mexican with 100,000 Pesos in the bank in 1975, you had $8,000 U.S.

By 1990, that very same 100,000 Pesos was worth $10 U.S.

virtually the entire Mexican middle-class was wiped out, due to hyper-inflation.

What country will middle-class Americans go to for jobs, when hyper-inflation has ruined our country?