No One Was Minding The Store
The News & Observer reports from North Carolina. “Near the peak of the recent real estate boom along coastal North Carolina’s rivers and sounds, William Highfill got an invitation for a gala three-day sales weekend at a new Brunswick County subdivision. It was spring 2006 when Highfill joined a group of enthusiastic buyers from as far away as California.”
“Highfill and his son-in-law bought three lots, solely for investment. The entire 200-lot first phase of the project sold out in two days. But today, the nation’s housing bust is in full view in Brunswick County: Many of the sought-after lots are sprouting weeds.”
“Now, Highfill and Cass are among hundreds of investors along the inner coast who would like to sell. Their broker hasn’t had a single nibble, though, since they listed the property in February.”
“‘We’re trying basically to get rid of one or two and hold on to the other in case they do grow in value,’ Highfill said. ‘But it doesn’t seem like anything is moving.’”
“Single-lot sales, though, have fallen to less than a fifth of their peak in late 2005. And foreclosure notices this year are running about 50 percent higher than those in the rest of the state.”
“Two years ago, the southeastern corner of the state was the heart of the boom. But foreclosures in Brunswick County set a record last year, said Leslie Bell, the county planning director. He said many of them were on property bought by speculators attracted by soaring prices.”
“‘I think the market needed to correct itself,’ he said. ‘We had properties selling out of sight here. Unfortunately, when it hit, it hit hard.’”
“Vinny Annecchiarico moved down from Egg Harbor, N.J., this winter to the Palmetto Creek subdivision, between Supply and Southport in Brunswick County.”
“On his block, 16 of the 17 homes have sold - including one he bought for his daughter - along with dozens of others in the immaculately groomed subdivision. The blocks of empty lots at both ends of his own don’t worry him.”
“‘This place is about to boom,’ he said. ‘The price is right. And if it takes a while, why should I care? I have my pool, and nobody’s in it but me.’”
“Last year was a down year for most of the community banks based in the Triangle — and 2008 is shaping up to be worse. First-quarter profits at the corporate parent of Crescent State Bank of Cary, which has 13 branches, dropped by nearly a third.”
“Paragon Commercial of Raleigh has offices in Richmond and Charlotte and caters to small and midsize business customers; its profits fell more steeply: 46 percent. ‘We’re a cyclical industry,’ said Paragon’s CEO, Bob Hatley. ‘We’re at the low end of the cycle right now.’”
“Sales of existing homes in the Triangle plummeted 31.1 percent in May compared with a year earlier, the 11th consecutive monthly decline. It was the largest drop since the national housing slump began affecting the local market in late 2006. Foreclosures have risen almost 19 percent this year.”
“Bank failures aren’t likely locally, because the Triangle real estate market never overheated and therefore hasn’t fallen as hard as others.”
“‘I can’t think of a bank in North Carolina that is headed toward failure,’ said Jim Beck, CEO of TrustAtlantic Bank, which started in Raleigh last year. ‘I think you are going to see them in other places. I think you’re going to see them in Atlanta. I think you’re going to see them in Florida.’”
“‘I’m not saying we’re immune,’ said Crescent State Bank’s CEO, Mike Carlton, ‘but we are certainly sheltered from the problems that are out there.’”
The Times Dispatch from Virginia. “The good news is Virginia was not among the 10 states in June with the highest foreclosure rates in the country. It was No. 11. ‘Foreclosures are rising faster in Virginia than almost anywhere else,’ said Connie Chamberlin, CEO of a housing advocacy group for the state.”
“A year ago, Virginia was in the middle at No. 25, according to RealtyTrac. The number of filings in Virginia increased 204 percent in June from the same month a year ago.”
“Virginia’s stable economy kept foreclosures at bay, but the problem is catching up here. Moreover, lending practices are loose, possibly more so than in other states, Chamberlin said. ‘Our restrictions on lending practices are pretty minimal. No one was minding the store,’ she said.”
“The rates in Virginia were driven by a high number of foreclosures in Northern Virginia, particularly in Prince William County, Chamberlin said.”
“‘We know these loans were focused on minority communities. The Hispanics in Northern Virginia, in particular, were targeted,’ she said.”
The News Leader from Virginia. “There’s always a worst-case scenario, and when it comes to the housing crisis, James Madison University economics professor Barkley Rosser’s mind goes straight to Washington. D.C. has the highest foreclosure rate increase of any city in the nation.”
“The dismal reality of lowered home values and blocks with 75 percent of homes empty has not yet reached Staunton, Waynesboro and Augusta County. But with hundreds of subprime mortgages likely to reset in the next year, concerns about the economy cause many to wonder what will happen when our day comes.”
“The number of subprime mortgages nationwide has skyrocketed in the past few years, according to Rosser, largely because the price of housing went up so quickly and few could afford a new home.”
“‘It was a sign that people needed to take those mortgages to afford the housing,’ Rosser said.”
“Most local loans consist of borrowers refinancing their homes rather than first-time buyers, according to the Fed. Given that, there’s a possibility many of the loans are simply homeowners taking advantage of a seemingly good deal and should be ready for the interest rate reset when it comes, Rosser said.”
“If that’s the case, Staunton, Waynesboro and Augusta County might leave the situation relatively unscathed. ‘No way we’re going to be like Manassas,’ Rosser said. ‘Forget it.’”
The Baltimore Sun. “The decision to buy a vacation house puts a number of factors in play, especially in the current market, which is as flat as week-old beer. According to a National Association of Realtors survey, sales of vacation houses decreased by more than 30 percent in 2007, with the median sales price also falling.”
“‘We went through a four-year period where price appreciation was 20 percent a year,’ says Pat Campbell-White at Re/Max Realty Group in Rehoboth, Del. ‘And that can’t go on forever.’”
“Kensington residents Richard and Marie Sippel, both still working full time, bought their second home in Woodland Beach north of Lewes, Del., specifically with eventual retirement in mind.”
“‘What we’re expecting to do is sell this house [when we retire] and get a condo in Washington, [D.C.], and spend 50 percent or more of the time at Woodland Beach,’ says Marie Sippel.”
“The recent phenomenon of ‘come backs’ (people who retire to Florida then realize it’s miserable in summer and their children and grandchildren don’t visit as often as they’d like) and ‘half-backs’ (those from farther north who found Maryland’s milder climate and shorter distance to children more appealing than Florida and Georgia) are part of a new migration interested in the retirement potential of vacation houses in the state.”
“‘The winters aren’t bad in this region, and even though where we are is secluded, it’s relatively close to a lot of things,’ says Sippel, who stays at her Woodland Beach property a couple of times a month.”
“While the number of vacation-home sales is down across the board and bidding wars are a thing of the past, in some areas, values are steady.”
“‘People up here sell because they don’t use the house that much anymore, but it’s almost never a distress situation,’ says Mike Kennedy of Railey Realty in Deep Creek. ‘You have a lot who will wait for their price.’”
“In other areas, however, prices have come down a chunk. Vacation houses in Ocean City are down as much as 25 percent, according to Ed Shepherd, Realtor in Ocean City. Still, a recent NAR survey found that eight in 10 second-home buyers consider it a good time to invest in real estate, compared with 59 percent of those buying a primary residence.”
“‘Opportunities abound,’ says Jeff Maguire, a sales representative with Distinguished Properties in Annapolis. ‘People are able to pick up some extraordinary properties at favorable prices.’”
“Yet even with those factors, some potential buyers are hesitant to commit, worried that the market has farther to fall. Like the market top, the bottom is often only visible in hindsight. Campbell-White, who has been through several up-and-down cycles in 35 years as a broker, suggests that, if you find the house that fits your criteria at a price you can afford, you should go for it.”
“‘If you’re waiting for a market bottom, you’re going to miss it,’ she says.”
“Also, since a vacation/retirement home buyer typically expects to own the property longer than 10 years, the potential for appreciation is greater since owners can wait out market lows. And while the median price of a vacation house has declined recently, the longer-term trajectory is up.”
“‘If you bought in 2001 and you want to sell, you’re still going to make money,’ Shepherd says. ‘You won’t make as much as if you’d sold at the peak, but you won’t lose.’”
‘a recent NAR survey found that eight in 10 second-home buyers consider it a good time to invest in real estate, compared with 59 percent of those buying a primary residence.’
As I’ve often said, ’second home’ owners are usually speculators, and this NAR stat goes along with that. It’s cheaper to stay in a hotel or resort than to keep up some house a few hours away.
And with a family, it usually is way cheaper just to rent a house for a week somewhere. You get so much more space, you’ve got the kitchen so you don’t have to eat out 3 times a day. Did I mention the extra space?
It is hard enough owning and maintaining one home. I have a few relatives and friends who have lost beaucoup money this year on their second homes in Wisconsin because of the flooding.
I suppose you could pay the exorbitant fees for a management company if you were loaded, but I’d much rather spend a few grand a year for a few weeks of a nice vacation rental than to have yet another noose around my neck. And finally, I’d much rather go to different places rather than always going back to the same place.
Unless you go every weekend or close to it, I’ve never seen a situation where a second home pencils out financially.
Just rent by the week or the month or whatever. Cheaper, faster, get to go different places, and most importantly, somebody else’s problem.
Is there anyone here whose parents didn’t buy into a timeshare (or equivalent) at some point and regret it? Did you learn nothing from your parents’ mistakes?
See, that’s where I differ slightly. “I” happen to think if you picked it up in the secondary market ( for a penny on Ebay ) and had only the maint. fees to contend with it ‘could’ be a good deal? If your fees are $500 for the week that’s $71.42 a night.
Then again I believe those that say we could be revisiting the days of the $5.95 buffet and $30 hotel rooms in Vegas may well be right? ( I sure hope so )
I strongly suggest you take into account 18.4 million empty housing units currently built and neither sold nor rented.
That’s 40+ years of supply assuming normal population growth.
I thought the 18.4 million figure was *all* empty houses, including vacation homes?
My parents never bought a time-share, but I bought one myself in 1988. What a dumb idea. Supposedly, one could use one’s week to go to any of a few hundred resorts, but when I found out how really hard it was to get any “trades,” I just wanted to get rid of the stupid thing. Ended up simply quitting my claim and writing off the entire price as a loss. Had some other gains so I just thought of it as a Good Lesson.
And with a family, it usually is way cheaper just to rent a house for a week somewhere.
yeah, but you’re renting my second home for what would be a normal month’s rent. If i rent it out 12 weeks a year it’s doing OK. And in between rentals, I’m vacationing in it myself.
A 2nd home need not be a speculative investment to be a good investment.
‘2nd home..a good investment’
Yeah, this thinking has brought the financial world to it’s knees, but I’m sure it will work out for you.
Touché
Give it to him, Ben, give it to him. Show absolutely no mercy.
The key problem is in the “if”.
Yeah, well, if you find renters at all, and if they pay you for a week what you pay for a month, and if your renters don’t go on a drunken rampage, and if your maintenance were free, and if bad things never happen, then maybe, perhaps, perchance, cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die your speculative dream may be a good idea.
Only if you can’t find better use for that capital.
I’m not suggesting buying now, while prices are still falling.
Once prices stabilize, a 2nd house is as good a place to park extra money as is anything else, and speculating is the furthest thing from one’s mind…
Only if you can’t find better use for that capital.
What do you want.. High returns? It is you that are looking at speculating, not I. But there are other ways to view a second home.
As for maintanance and finding renters, etc., it’s not all that difficult to pick a good spot. Then hire an agent to screen and do the weekly renting and keep an eye on the place. Many of the same people tend to come back year after year.
What he said.
I always have a bit of fun seeing what the people paid for the place I’m renting, and I can honestly say that Nobody has gotten a month’s rent out of me for my one week stay. And once you add in taxes and insurance cleaning costs and rental agency fees and what have you, fuhgedaboutit.
Anyway, to each their own, and good luck to you on the rentals. I just find life so complicated to begin with that another house seems like Noose Central to me.
To people that don’t know how to run a spreadsheet, or read accounting statements, investment always looks like speculation.
But it’s not.
Ask Graham and Dodd, and their legions of followers.
Investment is speculation. You get paid for taking a risk with your money. In normal markets, the higher the risk, the higher the return.
RE is a bad investment these days because it is high risk for low return. The problem with Ponzi schemes is that the ones who arrive late to the party don’t perceive the risk correctly.
i find it kinda useless to brand anything that carries risk as speculation.
Just about everything we do involves risk.. walking across the street.. looking someone in the eye..
“RE is a bad investment these days because it is high risk for low return.”
The US stock market is exactly the same. The US stock market offers a 2.5% dividend yield for the risk of holding the shares of companies loaded with overpaid, incompetent executives? I’ll pass on that, thank you.
Keep the popcorn popping,
Red Baron
Do the following to get through the depression: 1. Get and keep a job 2. Rent or live in an RV so you can be mobile for your job 3. Save at least 25% of your after-tax income 4. Eliminate debt unless you could pay it off if you lost your job.
‘looking someone in the eye’ is a risk?
where i come from it might be.. specially if you don’t smile.
another one is smiling while not looking them in the eye..
What version of hell do you reside in, anyway?
There also might be a slight difference in ‘vacation’ property and ’second home’.
I remember seeing a log cabin in the Home Depot parking lot a couple years ago they were selling for about 20k. I was seriously thinking about getting it and a cheap lake lot (10k was not unheard of a few years ago, no view, of course) without utilities at a local local lake (near Austin, TX), then I we could boat and hang out without having to drive home all the time. That’s what I generally envision as a ‘vacation’ property, but these days most people are buying regular houses with granite countertops.
But even then, with the prop. taxes and say 50k pricetag, you could do a lot of regular vacationing.
Friends of mine have one of these “we’ll rent the cottage by the week and it will pay for itself” things. It only cost them $200K and a years worth of work.
This year they have it booked for two weeks, one of which is to a relative.
Ben, I can’t get upset if people buy a second home right now, because none of us can second guess their motives or life circumstances. I only care that they can afford these homes using traditional/reasonable lending criteria, and that they don’t saddle the taxpayers with more debt if their investments fail.
If we’re going to make a dent in the slightest for PHX, LV, SD FL etc. we will likely see… yes, add’l legislation further incentivizing for the purchase of 2nd homes. As if it’s not a kiss me already?
I would be willing to go along with the scheme as long as those speculators that have or are in the process of being foreclosed waive their right to sell a home EVER again exempt from cap. gains. That or if someone did a cash-out re-fi and then sent in the jingle mail you will be barred from EVER declaring MID on Schedule A. When you wrap your mind around MOAB ( the Mother Of All Bailouts ( Michelle Malkin ) it’s the only ‘fair’ thing I can think of?
Here in Tucson, there are quite a few second homes. They tend to be in the ritzy areas, which means that they’re nowhere near the Arizona Slim Ranch.
The above being said, a second home in the Old Pueblo isn’t something you can just buy here and forget about. You can’t just go off and leave the place and expect it to take care of itself.
One of my friends, a local building contractor, said that houses need to be opened up and aired out now and then, and this is especially important with second homes. In fact, he even knew people who provided this service.
We bought an ocean front condo in Ft Lauderdale at the end of the last RE bust around 1990-1. Paid $100k for a 2/2 unit that cost $185k to construct.
At the peak similar units were trading at $600k. Now they are trading at $350k. When you factor in taxes, ins and maintenance and 5% interest on $100k (paid cash) we are still making a bit of money, but this is a vacation home not an investment.
Point is if you buy right you have lots of options and you can choose whether it is an investment or a vacation home.
Truth be told I am a little disappointed in myself for not selling when they reached $550-600k. I had more than one unsolicited offer. It doesn’t keep me up at night as I am not sweating a payment or looking to flip.
We know five retired couples (!) who own two houses. All of them are trying to sell one of the houses. Of the five, only one couple can readily afford to carry both houses. One couple admits they are hurting financially, and another probably is but won’t admit it.
More shocking to us is the number of retired couples we know who own just one house but have a mortgage on it. It’s probably a majority.
Bill in Carolina,
See, this is more along the lines I was thinking. I’ve heard the Great 2nd Home Investment Debate before and I fear in all too many cases this is exactly where it winds up. When you really can’t afford it, the rest of the debate is kind of moot?
The reason I’m willing to consider other snowbirding options is that it seems no matter how you slice it, they got you coming and going! Think owning an RV is the answer? ( Try parking it overnight for FREE! ) You’ll find out. Fractional ownership? Condotel? Houseboat? You name it, it’s over priced. How do you win here?
I can’t see “living” in a hotel with all hours partiers puking in the hallway. And I can’t see really being comfortable renting a house for a week or a month? I’ve done it and always felt like I didn’t want to get “too… settled in”? At this point I’m really open. I’ve even thought about getting a slice of desert somewhere that friends could park their RV’s for free and just have basic services. ( Water and sewer )
I have a retired relative who owns three houses with his also-retired spouse, including two in southwest Florida. We on this blog know the drill–he “can’t sell” one of them and has decided to wait until the market recovers.
A second home can be the right move for certain people in certain circumstances at a certain time. I certainly wouldn’t recommend it now. But if this housing-credit debacle turns out as bad many here think, then a lot of these discretionary properties will be dumped on the market toward the end of the cycle. (But that’s just the “certain time” element - only one part in decision making.)
I do have a hunch that debt taken on near the end of this cycle (and debt surviving this cycle) will, in time, be able to be paid off with mickey mouse dollars as inflation surmounts the ebbing effects of played-out deflation, and proves the only way to “resolve” the still-massive amounts of debt (Federal as well as private) that exist.
We’ll see.
Did anyone see that “100 best places to live” report yesterday?
One thing that gave me a laugh was that the report stated that the average HH in the Loveland/Ft. Collins area spends close to $8000 per year on vacations.
I don’t know where they got that number from, but I only know of a couple of families that spend that kind of scratch on vacations, and their income is way, way above the median for the area.
“‘This place is about to boom,’ he said. ‘The price is right. And if it takes a while, why should I care? I have my pool, and nobody’s in it but me.’”
ORLY? And who exactly will be buying these homes, Vinny? More folks from NJ? Or do you have more daughters you can buy up homes for? There are virtually no jobs in that area of the state. Unless they’re waiting on the rush of these phantom “retirees”.
Yeah, it’s gonna go boom-boom, alright. You think that’s what he really meant?
FPSS,
I’ve got it! In order to get lot sales moving again we can have “Nude Only” lot subdivisions where you can purchase the lot and hang out on this vacant property totally in the BUFF!
True… there’s no pool, landscaping or even hedge to pee behind I think they’ll take off?
Tried this in Florida. Didn’t work.
Double coincidence of wants problem.
If I want nudity, I’ll pay for it. If I want a house, I’ll pay for it. Doesn’t have to be in the same place.
Also, other posters mentioned that people who hang around nude pools are precisely the people who shouldn’t be naked at all.
FPSS,
Well it didn’t work because they had actual residences! This would be totally different. People could bring lawn chairs and shade tents and have cook-outs, play ‘nude volleyball’ and throw frisbees among their fellow Nude Only lot owners?
The finance mgr. “on site” will have a folding table and make all the arrangements to purchase your lot totally in the nude!
Oh, the humanity. ; )
If you look at national trends, most retirees will likely stay close to their families and old neighborhoods. The smart ones will snowbird with family, friends, in a small camper, or in an affordable third world country.
And soon that third world country will be the USA
Is this is a version of “buy now or be priced out forever”?
Give it up, lady. This isn’t 2004. It ain’t working no more.
The agents can’t make up their mind as to whether a house is an investment or if its someone’s “dream” - and they don’t see the hypocrisy of jumping between those two positions as the situation warrants.
It’s an investment that goes zing-zing-zing like your heartstrings.
Oh wait! That’s not working out either.
There’s that Judy reference again
You’d be surprised - I am *amazed* at home many people around are indeed buying into this. Just this morning we had a repairman come by - a very sensible-seeming guy - and he said he thought now was a good time to buy since prices have come down. This is in NoVa, where prices are still plummeting - and still about 60-80% above where they should be (even if economic conditions remain relatively normal). Also I have a friend from work who just bought a foreclosure, thinking that this was the bottom. He did get a great deal compared with the peak, but much much better deals will be out there 2-3 years from now.
Yes, sellers in NoVa are still asking/dreaming 2005 prices.
The outer ‘Burbs (Loudoun, PWC etc) are getting hammered - tons of houses have RE signs in the front yards, but you can’t find them in the MLS or ZipRealty - shadow inventory for sure.
Many homes being relisted 90 days after being taken off the Market so the RE agent can roll the Days-on-Market back to zero.
Many RE tricks/lies being told in NoVa - do research is buying, but for the best deals wait a year or two for it all to come crashing down!
The Shadow Inventory trick is a huge business here in Maryland. As inventory climbs, foreclosures climb, etc. oddly, the inventory remains practically unchanged for months on end if you believe Realtor.com, etc. And we have the relisting trick here as well - I’ve seen some houses that I KNOW have been on the market at some stupid wishing price for years, yet the days on market is always being refreshed.
The whole thing is a scam; if one didn’t know what was really going on and just trusted those websites, you’d get the impression that the Bubble is still bubbling away.
Here in Tucson, the shadow inventory consists of:
1. Houses that weren’t selling at the desired wishing prices, so now they’re for rent.
2. Houses that fit the first description, except that they now have tenants, and, shall we say, the tenants vary widely in quality.
3. Houses that are being rented “until the market improves.” Which translates as “when those double-digit rates of home price increases return.” (Dream on, you wishful landlords.)
4. Houses that are just plain sitting there. My former landlady has one of those. The last set of tenants moved out two years ago this month.
The inner D.C. suburbs are still waiting for the other shoe to drop, but it’s coming. In my subdivision in Arlington, there were 15 sales from January-May last year. This year in the same period, there were 5 sales. The prices have only been inching down so far, but with such a dramatic fall in sales volume, I have a feeling that the price crash is coming soon…
“If you’re waiting for a market bottom, you’re going to miss it.”
Maybe, maybe not. Don’t tell me what may or may not happen. I admit to playing in the fields of conjecture, but I would never say that my conjectures are absolutes. Ideas, conjectures, and speculations are what makes markets for exchange. Get rid of the right for individuals to think for themselves economically and we get the glories of central planning. I’d much rather take my chances failing as a multitude of individuals than failing as one large misdirected mass.
well, there is some thought behind it.
Prices will fall to the level of affordability. Lenders no longer lend to people who cannot afford the house. They can buy what they can support, and no more than that.
For prices to rise after the ‘bottom’, incomes will need to rise. In light of the impending recession, do you predict rising incomes any time soon?
But perhaps you see some other reason property prices will rise soon.. if so, lets hear them.
oops.. i think i misread your statement.. almost positive.. yep.
It was the maybe in the “maybe, maybe not” that tripped me up.
I do that too, don’t ya know! Anyway, I would like to see some wage inflation, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards anytime soon. More than likely, I believe that any wage inflation will get immediately demolished by rising prices of necessities. The sh!t has already hit the fan, and now the questions that still remain are who’s gonna get hit, and who’s gonna have to clean up this mess.
I am certainly not going to tell people what, when and how much to buy of anything. Make up your own damn minds you lazy monkeys!
Why is it that most REs pitch houses as a good “investment”. It’s like CNBC pitching financial stocks have hit rock bottom and it is a good time to buy. It’s crazy! I’d rather see a couple small upticks and do some extensive research before I make a decision.
You can immediately writedown another 30% from the purchase price (kind of like buying a car or a motorcycle) and wait at least 5 years to regain it back and another 5 years to be on the black. Unfortunately this investment is not like a stock. You buy the stock and wait to go up or down and you can liquidate quickly. A house has hidden costs and it sure isn’t a small investment. If you lose like most FBs are today, it’s a life changing experience.
If you buy a house and keep it till you die, then buy the right house that suits you. If you find it of course.
I agree. If a house was just a house and not a status symbol, then the majority of FBs would be in good shape right now.
“If you’re waiting for a market bottom, you’re going to miss it”
Maybe, but I’ll bet I can get close enough to it to make me happy.
“If you’re waiting for a market bottom, you’re going to miss it.”
This seems literally true to me, but most of us aren’t waiting for a “bottom.” We are just waiting till prices are in a range that makes buying not much more expensive than renting. At present, buying remains enormously more expensive than renting, in most parts of the US.
I timed it in the 90’s OK.
I ‘needed’ a 3 car garage so I moved up in 1994, but carefully. Found a suitable target in Laguna Niguel 92677. Showed my agent a penciled graph of comp prices still falling (I’m an engineer), she said “Let me have that” and showed the sellers. Got another 10% off their wish price (they had been cutting/re-listing for 6 months) and we settled at $330k. But I was still worried did I do OK?
3 months later the house next door (5% more house) sold for 10% more and I never looked back.
Recall Orange county median continued to fall into the late 90’s. Thus my belief the move-up market rises sooner, goes higher, and falls later than the median. This is playing out currently in SoCal (compare IE to Newport Beach).
I eventually leased this house out in 2001 - 2004. I remember getting about $3k per month in rent money while it was appreciating about $10k per month! Knowing this cycle was nearing the end, I sold it in 2004 for $900k.
So I think you can time the market OK, and I’m looking for the next opportunity. I won’t predict we’ll see these kinds of gains ever again, but I think positive cash flow and inflation+ growth will happen again, but the bottom will not occur for a few years yet.
She’s telling the truth. You will miss the bottom if you buy now.
…or you will lose your bottom if you buy now.
Best to be too early on the peaks and too late on the troughs unless you have a lot of money to give away.
Fishing from a dried up pool of liquidity seems like a fool’s errand…
“Now, Highfill and Cass are among hundreds of investors along the inner coast who would like to sell. Their broker hasn’t had a single nibble, though, since they listed the property in February.”
Maybe the lesson here is that you don’t ‘invest’ in RE unless you don’t mind being stuck with it when it doesn’t sell. That pretty much limits you to your own house, and one that you can easily afford.
“‘If you bought in 2001 and you want to sell, you’re still going to make money,’
Notice how that quote has the year that keeps going backwards?
Wasn’t it 2003 just a few months ago?
Yep, just yesterday as I recall (but probably different quoter.)
Soon 1995, and then on to 1983 (both inflation-adjusted.)
C’mon, hoz, I’m ready to place my bets now.
From the original post:
“The recent phenomenon of ‘come backs’ (people who retire to Florida then realize it’s miserable in summer and their children and grandchildren don’t visit as often as they’d like) and ‘half-backs’ (those from farther north who found Maryland’s milder climate and shorter distance to children more appealing than Florida and Georgia) are part of a new migration interested in the retirement potential of vacation houses in the state.”
Come-backing isn’t exactly recent. It’s precisely what my mother’s mother did back in the 1970s. Grandma had retired to Florida during the 1960s, and she lived with her sister and the sister’s husband for many years.
The plan was that Grandma would find her own place. But, alas, none of them measured up to Grandma’s lofty standards. When the sister had her fill of my grandmother, she kicked her out, and up to Pennsylvania she came.
My mother was working fulltime as a teacher and didn’t have time to put up with her mother’s manipulative games. And, believe me, Grandma was a world-class manipulator.
So, despite Grandma’s sorry tale about how she HAD to live with my mother, my father, and me, Mom found Grandma an apartment, and that’s where she lived until she went into assisted living.
The takeaways: Quite often, there are good reasons why the children and grandkids don’t visit these people as often as they’d like. And the “comeback” isn’t always welcomed by the kids and grandkids.
My sister got Mom and I got the the cat. Need I say who got the best end of the deal?
The cat?!?
The cat?
Astray cat has us.
reminds me of my friend’s grandmother. Her name was Sydney, but everyone called her “Sid Vicious” instead.
Here’s another tale from the Slim file: Back in the nineties, a close friend went into an assisted living facility. She noted that more than a few of her fellow residents had been left there by families that seldom came to see them.
Needless to say, they were not my friend’s favorite people, and she told me that she could understand why the families did what they did. Some folks just aren’t easy to get along with, no matter where they are.
Yup, a-holes, toxic people, and idiots get old too. Decency and wisdom don’t always come with aging.
We’ve had discussions at the Vermontergal ranch recently about what happens to certain set of relatives when they become aged (and assuming nothing changes with their personalities..)
We’ll be one of those seldom visiting relatives.
We call ours “the Granny Beast.”
And ours was called names that can’t be repeated on a family blog like this one.
“‘We went through a four-year period where price appreciation was 20 percent a year,’ says Pat Campbell-White at Re/Max Realty Group in Rehoboth, Del. ‘And that can’t go on forever.’”
Umm, duh? Gee - does your salary go up 20% per year? I didn’t think so - but it’s okay for housing prices to increase at that rate. We’re entering the phase where “everyone knew” that this couldn’t go on forever - the same people who claimed there was no problem all along!
Housing prices in Maryland have AT LEAST doubled during the Bubble. Run-down, Post-War junkers that are barely large enough for a 1 child family are selling for 5 times the median household income for the region, and that’s just for starters. At the high end, the sky is the limit with insane developments being sold for 2005 prices because “everyone in Maryland is rich because of DC.” Oh, wait - DC has a huge foreclosure rate… who could have guessed?
I also like the bit about the people lining up to buy “investment” houses in North Carolina, followed by people claiming that the Triangle Region never had a housing Bubble. Right, because lines of people from California buying unbuilt houses practically sight-unseen as “investments” is perfectly normal! No Bubble here - now move along!
“We’re entering the phase where “everyone knew” that this couldn’t go on forever - the same people who claimed there was no problem all along!”
Yup. And soon to follow with be the Self-Evident phase where Realtards will accuse us everyone of being masters of the obvious.
We’re entering the phase of “In the FDIC We Trust?” from the phase “In the House We Trust !”
Wait till you need to rely on the PBGC, and that baby fails.
Coming up soon.
geeez… let me try that again…
And soon to follow will be the Self-Evident phase where Realtards accuse everyone of being masters of the obvious.
But the Grandma came back, she wouldn’t stay away,
She was sitting on the porch on the very next day
Ooops….My Bad
My grandmother lived with us when I was growing up. From my point of view, it was great. Mom made clothes and did most of the garden. Grandmother cooked and kept house. I know it was a bit of a strain on my parents’ budget-larger house, larger car. But it did have some advantages. Both my parents and inlaws were able to stay in their home. For my fil that was possible because we were next door. i don’t think we could have lived with him, but I’m glad he was close by. The kids enjoyed it a lot. But it all depends on personalities.
“Vinny Annecchiarico moved down from Egg Harbor, N.J., this winter to the Palmetto Creek subdivision, between Supply and Southport in Brunswick County.”
*shaking head* ….. I bet the natives just love this a$$wipe.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. Regional differences in culture do exist. I’ve seen people successfully adapt to places where I never thought they’d make it, and after sixteen years I’ve been acculturated to Florida, but at least as often it’s like fitting a square peg in a round hole. I bet this Vinny fits in to the rural South about as well as Joe Pesci’s character in “My Cousin Vinny.”
That’s the ticket. And it’s usually these retards who view the natives with contempt. And it’s the natives who typically separate these morons from their wallets. And it appears this case is no different.
“‘If you’re waiting for a market bottom, you’re going to miss it,’ she says.”
Oh and how does that work Realtard Dingbat??? May I be so honored as to view your crystal ball? I’ve got a bulletin for ya…… Considering the depth of “the bottom” and worse yet, how far (long) it will take to traverse it once we get down there, there won’t be any hurry to “miss” the bottom. No hurry at all.
But do keep yammering away with your cluelesssness Realtard Dingbat…. you’re the best contrarian indicator going.
“‘I can’t think of a bank in North Carolina that is headed toward failure,’ said Jim Beck, CEO of TrustAtlantic Bank.
He obviously hasn’t heard about Wachovia.
bada bing! my thought exactly…..
CNBC did a piece on Charlotte a few months back where they interviewed a number of local luminaries. Everyone they interviewed spouted the same nonsense, that Charlotte hadn’t really been affected by the housing bust and that the city had nothing but good times ahead. Not one person mentioned how tied up that city is with the banking industry. Who is going to buy all of those spec houses when the main industry in the city is contracting?
There is something with human nature that makes it very difficult to evaluate your own situation objectively.
Hey, Wachovia is building a large building in downtown Norfolk… it was to have condos I believe, but now it’s going to be luxury apartments. Well, there are some 1000 luxury apartments coming online, even though the jobs are lackluster and the new data posted in the local paper 2 days ago was that population is decreasing in the city.
“Now, Highfill and Cass are among hundreds of investors along the inner coast who would like to sell. Their broker hasn’t had a single nibble, though, since they listed the property in February.”
Again, this is an old story: people are trying to sell, and no one is biting. I just don’t see the situation like a lot of sellers and realtors are describing it. If the house isn’t selling, it isn’t the whole truth that they simply “would like to sell.” The truth is that they would like to sell above a particular price.
I predict that a year from now the situation is going to become even more desperate for sellers. I’ve heard a lot of people estimate that prices could come down 50% from their peak, but I don’t think I’ve heard anyone describe what our world is going to be like when we get to that point. The economy can really come crashing down. And sellers may be forced to price their homes below 2003 prices and STILL find themselves without buyers.
There are only two credible choices if you understand macroeconomics: either 1995 prices adjusted for inflation, or 1983 prices adjusted for inflation.
There are no other credible alternatives.
We’ve been debating this for years. My bet’s on the latter.
1983 or 1995, both adjusted for inflation. What’s the difference? None in my estimation but that’s anywhere from 30-80% below current fantasy prices.
I’ve been thinking alot about what Ben J. stated the other day. “Forget about re-sales”. I do a whole lot of pissing and moaning about realtard/seller delusion talk and it is rather belaboring… but sometimes I just can’t take the constant stream of bullshit out of the mouths of these creeps. Anyways, my point is, Ben J. is probably correct. Forget about re-sales. REO is selling although I’m not sure at what discount off asking but in light of that fact, at what point will we see the widest selection of REO or doesn’t inventory matter when it comes to an individual bank???? I’d think a bank would be more inclined to accept my miserly offer if they had alot of inventory. Also, insiders, as always, will get the best deal on the best stuff but that shouldn’t make a difference.
Are we a blog of spectators or those willing to strike?
We’ll strike when the numbers pen out.
FP, I wasn’t criticizing you. I think I was trying to say that there is a huge disparity between re-sales and REO prices. The question really is, when is it time to strike on REO??? We can all view retail re-sales and determine what is delusional but how does one know REO is at a bottom price? The quantity of REO inventory with that particular bank? I see REO priced high, middle and what appears to be “low”. Is it actually low or are we just accustomed to high prices?
Some general set of rules apply to suggest we’re not even at the phase where looking is worthwhile.
Prices are wrong. In relation to both incomes and rents.
The rules are being changed daily. Super-SIV, MLEC, TAF, PLF, who knows what next?
REO’s are not being priced aggressively. We haven’t had RTC II yet. The fever hasn’t broken decisively.
REO’s sell on the numbers (read above.) When it pens out, it will be obvious.
I assure you at the bottom you will have all the time in the world. Your very own anxiety to get in suggests that it’s not time yet.
When the time comes to buy, you will be so blas&ecute; and bored that if a brand new movie comes out, you may decide to skip the house hunting to go watch the movie.
Your emotions (both greed and fear) are your allies. Get a modicum of control.
“I assure you at the bottom you will have all the time in the world.” Faster Pussycat, I think you’re right about that.
A while back someone in the news suggested that we may not see a recovery until around 2013 or so. That may be so, but I think a lot of sellers have not really considered what that recovery means in terms of today’s prices. A 2013 recovery doesn’t mean a house priced today at $500k is going to sell for $500k in 2013. I think a 2013 recovery means that that the same home may go for $260k, instead of the $240k it could have fetched in 2011.
“Also, insiders, as always, will get the best deal on the best stuff but that shouldn’t make a difference.”
These are not ordinary circumstances. I suspect a good majority of the “insiders” were busy drinking the kool-ade; a lot of them are now FBs themselves. Very few will be in a financial position to bottom feed when the time comes.
Every summer we rent a 7000 square foot luxuriously appointed home in Wrightsville Beach, NC with 8 bedrooms, beautful kitchen, pool, game room, decks, etc. that holds 3 families plus grandparents for $9,000/week, in other words less than $2,000 per “group”. Everyonme has their own space and bathroom.
Just the property taxes are around $16,000 per year. Upkeep and utlities must be very costly. No way I can see this being worth buying.
My parents just did a similar deal in Orlando. It was about $3,800 for eight days for four families in seven bedrooms for this property.
http://www.villadirect.com/vacation_home/Summer_Breeze.html
Bottom line — there are very few cases where I believe owning a second home makes sense.
One is two teachers married to each other who can take the summer off (the parents of a friend were like that — they spent summers on Cape Cod).
The other is city dwellers who live with a family in a small apartment, and have a second home to spend all weekends in. We considered this in the previous housing bubble (late 1980s), before the price of an actual rowhouse dropped back to affordable levels.
The way this works is that most middle class Americans, even those not in McMansions, have far more space than they really need most of the time. No one else in the world has that much. A house is, in part, a place to put your excess stuff, as George Carlin said, and in part a place to host gatherings of family and friends. Those would be outsourced to the country.
In Sweden, for example, MOST people live in a small apartment in a city like Stockholm and have a small cottage. Same thing in Prague. Of course there you don’t have to drive through two hours of suburbs to get to the country.
“Also, since a vacation/retirement home buyer typically expects to own the property longer than 10 years, the potential for appreciation is greater since owners can wait out market lows….‘If you bought in 2001 and you want to sell, you’re still going to make money,’ Shepherd says. ‘You won’t make as much as if you’d sold at the peak, but you won’t lose.’”
Does that mean that if I bought a vacation house in 2005 and sell it in 2015 that I can expect to make money?