The Storm Is Starting To Shake The Shutters In California
The Marin Independent Journal reports from California. “Marin home sales continued to slide as prices dropped dramatically across the Bay Area last month. Though Marin remained the only Bay Area county with a $1 million median price for single-family homes, the median was down from $1,125,000 a year earlier. In May, the median single-family home price in Marin was $1,102,000.”
“Marin’s condominium market matched Bay Area trends. The median price dropped 26 percent to $410,000 in June from $470,000 in May.”
“‘Once again the quest for a bargain kept Bay Area home sales out of record-low territory,’ said John Walsh, DataQuick president.”
The San Francisco Chronicle. “With bargain-priced foreclosures glutting the market, the median price paid for a Bay Area home in June plunged below the half-million-dollar mark for the first time in four years.”
“The $485,000 median price for resale homes, new homes and condos was a breathtaking 27 percent drop from the peak $667,000 median reached just one year ago, in June and July 2007, according to DataQuick. It was the lowest median since March 2004, when the benchmark stood at $469,500.”
“Even pricey areas like Marin and San Francisco, which until now had seemed relatively immune to price erosion, saw prices decline by 11.1 percent and 11.3 percent, respectively.”
“Among resold homes, foreclosures accounted for 28.7 percent of all sales, up from 3.5 percent in June 2007. ‘The bulk of what is selling is distress stuff,’ said Andrew LePage, an analyst with DataQuick.”
The Mercury News. “Prices of homes sold last month in Santa Clara County were down 15 percent compared to June 2007. The median price of the previously owned, single-family houses sold in June in the county was $670,000, according to DataQuick, down 15.3 percent from $791,000 a year earlier. The last time the median price was so low was in March 2005, when the figure was also $670,000.”
The Milpitas Post. “Though Santa Clara County has remained insulated from much of the national fallout in housing, growth in the assessed value of county residential property has dropped to 5.5 percent.”
“The Assessor’s Office has taken what it called a ‘proactive’ approach to the decline in the housing market by voluntarily reducing the assessed value of 41,866 properties for a total reduction of more than $5 billion in value. Those figures include 2,310 Milpitas properties, totaling more than $466 million in reduced value.”
The Sacramento Bee. “Sacramento County’s 2,053 sales of existing homes was the highest since October 2005. Sales of new and existing homes combined were the highest since June 2006, up 45.7 percent from the same time last year.”
“Falling prices still tell much of the story. With bank-repossessed homes dominating sales activity, June’s median resale home price of $214,000 for existing homes in Sacramento County is the lowest since $210,000 in February 2003. Median prices for new and existing homes combined slipped to $220,000 in the county. That level was last seen in August 2002.”
The Recordnet. “Sales of existing homes - primarily foreclosures still - continued to climb in June in San Joaquin County for the fifth consecutive month while the median sales price slipped to the lowest level since spring 2002.”
“Jerry Abbott, president of Coldwell Banker Grupe in Stockton, said that because of foreclosures, prices have declined 41 percent in the previous year after a 36 percent drop the 12 months before that.”
“‘We needed a correction in the market,’ he said. ‘The foreclosures - even as painful as they are - are part of a correction that has to occur.’”
“Mike Collins, broker associate in Stockton, said the number of listings is dropping not only because foreclosures are selling so strongly but also because many traditional homeowners who would like to sell have either pulled out of this foreclosure-dominated market or aren’t bothering to list at all.”
The Bakersfield Californian. “To homeowner Ernie Montes de Oca, the Windermere development looked like the happiest place on Earth. But now, developer Castle & Cooke is proposing changes to the remaining unbuilt areas. Montes de Oca believes market conditions may be driving changes to Windermere’s concept.”
“‘At the end of the day, if they’re not making money, they need to somehow figure out how to make money,’ he said. ‘It’s understandable where we’re at in the economy; there’s lots of houses. It’s a bummer for us. We’ve spent our life savings on a product they’ve glorified, marketed (and) now they want to change it.’”
The LA Daily News. “A wave of foreclosures that flooded the market with homes for sale pushed down the median price from $502,000 in June 2007 to $355,000 last month across the six-county region, said DataQuick. The median price fell 4 percent from May.”
“Prices fell in all six markets, including a 23 percent drop in Los Angeles County, from $545,000 to $415,000. That means a house purchased just a year ago lost $130,000 in value.”
“Foreclosure sales have dominated the region’s market for months, and in June accounted for 41 percent of transactions. That compares with 7 percent a year earlier and 39 percent in May.”
“Leslie Appleton-Young, chief economist at the California Association of Realtors, said statewide sales appear to have bottomed out last October and have increased every month since then.”
“‘I think it’s a positive sign,’ she said. ‘I would just hate to characterize this thing as a V-shaped recovery.’”
“This turnaround will look like a U, with the bottom being very bumpy, she said.”
The Daily Journal. “Bob Hamidi, an Orange County-based real estate agent, said few of the potential buyers he represents have the spotless credit histories, large down-payments and other requirements now demanded by jittery lenders.”
“He said buyers who can’t afford to purchase houses outright or who don’t qualify for loans backed by the Federal Housing Administration are largely shut out of the market.”
“‘We’re getting limited to people who want to pay cash - who have put money aside and want to make an investment - or first-time home buyers who fit the guidelines of FHA,’ Hamidi said.”
The Union Tribune. “San Diego County’s foreclosure share in June was 39.8 percent, up from 37.5 percent in May and 11 percent in June 2007.”
“‘We’ve never been there before,’ said DataQuick analyst Andrew LePage, noting that the company’s records on foreclosures go back to 1995, when the region was in the midst of a real estate recession. ‘Foreclosures have a growing role in the market and we know they tend to sell at a discount. And with a growing share of sales, that helps pull the median down.’”
“Prices were down the most in San Bernardino County, off 34.2 percent to $240,000; Orange County was down the least, off 23.3 percent to $495,000. San Diego was down 25.3 percent to $370,000.”
“According to DataQuick, the typical mortgage approved last month throughout the region carried a monthly payment of $1,671, down from $1,713 in May and $2,430 a year ago.”
The Press Enterprise. “Riverside and San Bernardino counties in June saw the steepest year-over-year decline in median home prices in Southern California, while also posting the only year-over-year increases in home sales.”
“DataQuick analyst John Karevoll said home prices in the Inland market are ‘too low’ based on economic indicators, including household income and demand, and he predicted ‘the market will come back up once it reaches bottom.’”
“But Karevoll added that foreclosures are expected to keep coming.”
The Daily Bulletin. “There have been no offers on the five-bedroom, three-bathroom home at Church Street and Ramona Avenue. The 1950s steel-frame, single-level house has a huge playroom, a large kitchen and family room and a swimming pool.”
“‘This is a very rare piece of property because it is in the heart of Rancho Cucamonga,’ said real estate agent Michael Bushnell.”
“The property, which includes the 2,600-square-foot house, has been vacant for four years and on the market for about a year and a half. The original owners died, and their children have been tending to the home.”
“The original asking price was $1.3 million. Nine months ago, the family brought the price down to $960,000. It’s now at $795,000. Bushnell said the property received an offer of $750,000 when it was priced at $960,000 but the owners wanted at least $850,000 at the time.”
“‘They don’t owe anything on the house. Whatever we sell it at, they’re going to walk away with,’ Bushnell said.”
The Pasadena Star News. “Local credit unions are getting calls from panicked IndyMac customers seeking a safe haven for their money. Mike Theodore, CEO of E-Central Credit Union in Pasadena, said his company has already fielded a fair amount of calls.”
“And the tone of those calls? ‘Panicked,’ he said. ‘Normally when we have people call who are thinking about joining they ask what our rates are. But now it’s ‘What is your insurance?’”
“On Friday, the Office of Thrift Supervision revoked IndyMac’s charter and put the bank under control of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. ‘It’s bad,’ Theodore said. ‘It was greed related. That’s the difference between a for-profit company and a not-for-profit company.’”
The Daily Breeze. “In the second quarter, the Torrance apartment occupancy rate dropped by 1.8 percent to 95.5 percent, signalling a softening of rental demand.”
“Rent increases puttered out at the end of last year as rising inflation and stagnating personal income forced renters to tighten their belts, said Kyle Kazan, whose firm owns and manages apartment buildings throughout the South Bay and other parts of Southern California.”
“‘I’d say a lot of the juice was last year,’ Kazan said. ‘This year, I’m getting a lot of push back (from renters).’”
“Kazan expects a souring economy to force rental prices at his properties to remain relatively flat or even drop over the next year. As a result, the firm is trying to keep tenants from leaving by offering better service.”
“‘As a company, our management team is totally focused right now on keeping tenants happy, customer service and retention,’ Kazan said. ‘The feeling is the storm is already starting to shake the shutters.’”
The California Aggie. “Since January 2008, roughly 20 condos and single-family homes have entered the foreclosure stages in Davis, according to foreclosures.com. In Davis, only one foreclosure was documented in 2006. Six were documented in 2007, which is a small number but an exponential increase over a short period of time.”
“This can be attributed to different financial situations, according to Sarah Mohler, economic development director for the city of Davis. One scenario is when homeowners who ’sort of got into the market only paying interest [and having] no equity’ get caught with ballooning payments and can’t sell their house for what they paid for it.”
“‘People were doing anything to get into the market,’ Mohler said, and as a result were ’setting themselves up thinking the values are going to increase.’”
“The high rate of foreclosures will end up mitigating the instances of artificial inflation as seen in areas like Sacramento, said Tia Boatman-Patterson, special assistant to state assembly speaker Karen Bass.”
“‘The median income did not support the median price [of a] home, and so [some argue] this will bring housing prices down to a more affordable level,’ she said.”
“‘I don’t think Davis is immune to the housing bust at all,’ said economics lecturer Erick Eschker. ‘You just have to look at the rest of California and the Bay Area. The price of housing in Davis will be higher than West Sacramento and there might be some differences in how the prices come down, but the direction it’s going is clear.’”
“Eschker said his best advice was to look at the housing prices compared to renting in order to decide which option is more advantageous for you right now.”
“‘Especially if you’re considering to buy a house in California, renting is a wonderful thing to do right now, and buying a few years down the road,’ he said, ‘[then] you’re coming out ahead.’”
“Marin’s condominium market matched Bay Area trends. The median price dropped 26 percent to $410,000 in June from $470,000 in May.”
What??
may.. june.. one month.. is that a $60K drop in 30 days?
2,000 smackeroos a day?
Anyone who buys now can count on losing 2K a day?
…I apologize for all the rhetorical question marks..
The journal was pretty quiet in this article. No LAY gods country quotes, etc. Another one bites the dust.
“Look at these stats! Damn.. I can’t print this without some spin.. NAR will crucify me… ‘Betty, get me Larry Yun on the phone now!’ ”
“I can’t sir. I’ve been trying for days.. his home.. the golf course.. his.. umm.. niece’s house. He’s nowhere to be found.”
$2k a day…
I’m just trying to picture what fun one could have with $2,000 dollars to blow per day for a month…
The concept of trying to spend that kind of money boggles my mind (I’m excluding cars, boats, or other big purchases, imagine you could only rent and then spend $2,000 a day!)
I might have to try and blow that kind of money, some day.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Dang Neil,
If I weren’t so frugal, I might have fun with that visual - Ah, but I am visual!
Let’s go shopping!
Leigh
Neil,
Did your company make the planned pull out in So. CA? Has this impacted you in any way?
“I’m just trying to picture what fun one could have with $2,000 dollars to blow per day for a month…”
Elliot Spitzer has some ideas, I’m sure.
I have no idea how to spend that kinda loot. I know serious junkies who don’t need a quarter of that and would kill themselves trying to use more, and meanwile be too stoned to go buy anything except more dope..
Maybe I could do it if i was gambling in Vegas, but chances are I’d hit a winning streak and be making money.. so that’s out.
“I’m just trying to picture what fun one could have with $2,000 dollars to blow per day for a month…”
One word: blow. Rent the film.
“‘I think it’s a positive sign,’ she said. ‘I would just hate to characterize this thing as a V-shaped recovery.’”
“This turnaround will look like a U, with the bottom being very bumpy, she said.”
How about the letter L followed by a few underscores?
Why does Leslie Appleton-Young think her projections have any credibility with the public at all…Her forecasts have only been wrong, I dunno, 10 or 20 times over the past 2 years?
Ah, excuse me, but isn’t she the leader of the CAR? Whatever happened to Richard, i.e. Dick, Gaylord by the way? You don’t hear much spewing from his mouth in the popular press. All of this must be taking an emotional toll on their delicate psyches.
A rather distorted “U” perhaps. Something like this?
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That didn’t format very well. Sorry. The attempt was to show a drop, a long time near the bottom, than a slow recovery. Sort of like a U with a long bottom segment and mostly open to the right.
I kinda like the way it turned out!
Yeah, I can work with that!
test
Hey Leslie,
Maybe you could tell us about the shape of your bottom. Is it “bumpy”?
I just bet, it’s bumpy.
W shaped, according to the SF Fed bank president. (But isn’t an upside down W technically an M?)
“They don’t owe anything on the house”
Well la-dee-freakin’-da. Rather than take (what “I” think were some very reasonable offers ) and drawing a 6 or 8% return the heirs have elected to ride the Hellbound Train. Have fun guys because the HBT never “quite” arrives in hell but it never takes you back to where it picked you up either. Oh and have grand time covering the taxes on that too.
So are you telling us that the housing crash will resemble more of an asymptotic curve than any particular letter of the alphabet? Sounds pretty spooky, like the twilight zone.
“Upon stepping into the train, and entering the compartment conspicously lettered with the word CAR, the heirs each remarked on a strange electrical sensation. They had become the latest passengers on the eternal passage to … The Twilight Zone.”
Thank you Rod Serling.
As for the 485K price. At 0 down with a 6.25% for 30 years, that’s a whopping $2,650/month. Throw in taxes, HOA, Mello Roos, PMI (notin down, remember), maintenance and fire insurance (no earthquake, we’ll cut them a break), you are looking at around $3,300-$3,500/month.
Good grief! You would need to bring in $150K a year for this baby!
We have a long waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to go!
Rancho Cucamonga was a bit of a sh*thole the last time I visited in the late ’80s. I grew up in the OC and I remember visiting for high school track meets or whatever it being hot, smoggy, and not much in the way of jobs. Has the place gotten nicer in the last decade?
It was called Cucamonga then. You could get alot drugs there but not now, all the drug traffic moved to Victorville and the high desert.
it’s as crappy as Orange County now.
There will be no taxes if the house is the entirety of the estate.
“And the tone of those calls? ‘Panicked,’ he said. ‘Normally when we have people call who are thinking about joining they ask what our rates are. But now it’s ‘What is your insurance?’”
That’s funny….pain always seems to be the best educator
Sac and Stockton back to 2002 - WOW!
Congratulations! Now get back to work. The goal is 1994, ya know!
The goal is 1983 (adjusted for inflation.)
That’s when the credit bubble began and to thence shall it return.
“….Median prices for new and existing homes combined slipped to $220,000 in the county. That level was last seen in August 2002….” Good old Sacramento if really puttin on the dog.
For a little perspective, I remember thinking I should consider selling my home in Dec., 2002, because prices had moved up so rapidly, it was overpriced. It is hard to call the peak until it happens………..just as it is very hard to call the bottom until it happens. In 1999, I recall the median being about $175,000 (which was the exact price I paid for the house at the 1990 peak). The median moved to $225,000 by mid 2002, an increase of 28% over 3-years. I know this because the house that is right at the median, year in, year out.
I thought I knew, in 2002, what the market was going to do….
I think I know what the market is going to do now….but I could be wrong again
“‘We’re getting limited to people who want to pay cash - who have put money aside and want to make an investment - or first-time home buyers who fit the guidelines of FHA,’ Hamidi said.”
I thought raising the FHA limits was supposed to help…what happened…is affordability rearing it’s nasty little head again…
“I thought raising the FHA limits was supposed to help…what happened…”
Nah, there’s a catch. Now they actually want the money paid back! Can you believe that?
“‘We’re getting limited to people who want to pay cash - who have put money aside and want to make an investment - or first-time home buyers who fit the guidelines of FHA,’ Hamidi said.”
Now we should be heading toward the really big price drops. You have a very small buyer pool unless prices drop a lot.
“To homeowner Ernie Montes de Oca, the Windermere development looked like the happiest place on Earth”
I posted on this half wit development some time back…what a joke. Several of these homes were going for $750k (when Crisp and Cole was running the sales) and now they are going for $390k. LOOK OUT BELOW!!!
“The property, which includes the 2,600-square-foot house, has been vacant for four years and on the market for about a year and a half. The original owners died, and their children have been tending to the home.”
“The original asking price was $1.3 million. Nine months ago, the family brought the price down to $960,000. It’s now at $795,000. Bushnell said the property received an offer of $750,000 when it was priced at $960,000 but the owners wanted at least $850,000 at the time.”
Vacant for 4 years? Sounds like some children had dreams of unearned riches. Visions of money down the drain come to mind. Hansel and Gretel look like ascetics compared to these children.
Trying to get multiple heirs to agree on anything is darn near impossible. Once obstinate family member can hold things up for a long time.
That’s why they should have hired someone who knows the score to price the house for them. Some people are so arrogant.
Skip,
And boy do I know it! Even with proper guidance and the understanding that things are moving forward, all of a sudden you get “role reversal” and you’re back at square 1.
I hate when it comes to this, but sometimes you just have to say “all those in favor say aye!” I know planners that make the heirs sign to the effect of the impact of their decision/s.
I’m so glad that my sil was reasonable when it came to selling her father’s house.
We signed and my sister is still furious. I’m ok.
A house that’s been vacant for four years doesn’t exactly say “Buy me!”
“Bushnell said the property received an offer of $750,000 when it was priced at $960,000 but the owners wanted at least $850,000 at the time.”
As the old crass statement goes… Want/wish in one hand and sh!t in the other, and see which one fills up the fastest. I’ve been listening to this crap for more years than I want to count… I want, I want.
It’s now at $795. Someone will offer $650 and they’ll refuse it, wanting at least $700.
They’ll lower to $695, someone will offer $590 and they’ll refuse it….
Subtraction is fun!
Ben posted Sunday: “… I’ve been over a lot of this stuff on my foreclosure blog, but now that I’m going to trustee sales, it is more relevant.
While it may not be a good time to buy a house or multi-family where you live, there are some things that are becoming obvious. First, forget about the resale market. The distressed property market is the one to focus on IMO. That means there is some self education that anyone can be doing right now ahead of a potential purchase.
As I’ve said, going to these auctions is a great learning experience. You’ll see what is selling (or not selling) how the process works. Who is actually buying and for how much. And you’ll see stuff go back to the beneficiary (lender - learning the terminology is a help too.) and so forth…I’m learning who stands where, who is helpful, who isn’t. But one thing is for sure; when a house sells to a third party at auction, you have just witnessed THE market. There is no clearer visibility of where your market is on that day than a successful trustee sale.”
I think this is a great idea. Any San Diego people up for an auction and lunch or coffee?
Ben – any decision on the tee-shirts yet? Sorry if you answered me – there’s a good chance any reply got lost with my fabulous e-mail provider.
PB – Am I supposed to be watching my e-mail for something from you?
HBB tee shirts? What’ll they say? “It’s Different Here”?
I vote for “Suzanne researched this t-shirt”
The auctions will make you as informed as anyone. I hope you go and often.
Yes, I need to make time for the t-shirts. Thanks, BTW, for having that made up. I wear it all the time and get lots of stares!
“The auctions will make you as informed as anyone. I hope you go and often.”
“Yes, I need to make time for the t-shirts. Thanks, BTW, for having that made up. I wear it all the time and get lots of stares!”
Have you worn it to any auctions? I’d like to see those stares.
OK, I admit it - I want to wear one too. I could pick up and mail them out for you if you’ll reimburse me for postage. Wouldn’t take long with my label maker.
Let me know what you need.
T-SHIRTS!? I want HBB shoes and an HBB purse. And an HBB lipstick.
To my understanding, sales on the courthouse steps are NOT representative of a well functioning market.
There are common faces, who know each other, who don’t bid against one another (but will bid strangers to oblivion to protect their turf), etc.
Watch the sale immediately following the foreclosure sale of any house…that’s the real market.
Homes in the neighborhood listed for $700k.
Foreclosure sells on the steps for $480k.
Re-sells a month later for $595k.
The real market is $595k, not $480k.
Clearly you won’t get hurt if you buy for $480k, but don’t pretend that trustee sales are in any way a real indicator of a well functioning market. Such sales are not populated with typically motivated buyers and sellers. The sellers want to dump the property, and the buyers want to be able to re-sell the property for a profit almost immediately.
Except in a case like this, where the majority of sales are foreclosures. Hard to flip for a profit in an environment like that.
‘To my understanding, sales on the courthouse steps are NOT representative of a well functioning market.’
There hasn’t been a ‘well functioning market’ in most of the country for many years. What we have is what we have. Go ahead and use a realtor if you want. They’ll give you a straight deal, I’m sure.
While I agree that there hasn’t been a well functioning market in most of the country for many years…which is pretty much a no-brainer…but he’s right sales on the courthouse steps are not representative of a functioning market…to make that conclusion is an admission that one doesn’t really understand the process…spoken from someone who has attended many and goes a lot of times just for the spectacle…
to make that conclusion “that they are”
I met with a guy who tried to buy some homes from foreclosure and didn’t have the right “in” with the standard group (who apparently have come out of retirement for one last tour). He started to bid on a property that the “alpha dog” of the regulars wanted. The alpha dog quickly bid the property up far higher than it should have gone at auction just to prove that price didn’t matter.
He pretty quickly learned that if you wanted a good foreclosure price, you needed to play nice.
To my understanding, for the most part there is little real “competitive bidding” at foreclosure sales.
Not to mention the fact that you need to bring cashiers checks to buy the properties.
You have dramatically reduced supply of buyers simply due to the fact that there are few people who can essentially write a check for $200k+, and worry about financing later, and you have reduced competition among the bidders since they all know that if they play nice, they can all get super-low prices…there are plenty of foreclosures to go around.
This is why, despite what Big V says above, the guys on the inside can buy a property at foreclosure, and flip it for a profit, even today.
Ben, if you can find one of the guys on the good side of one of these groups willing to speak to you about how it really works at a trustee sale, you will be in for a fascinating conversation about the underbelly of the real estate market.
Pretty sure the sale on the courthouse steps does not remove other liens on the property, does it? That’s also a consideration, if so.
SDRE bear,
As a first time homebuyer, I have been pretending that I am buying on the market, going through all the machinations when I see something at a relatively good price, etc. I’ve even posted a few time on here just to see if you guys agree with the numbers (haha, you never do!). I haven’t been making real offers because despite some good deals, I’ve got every reason to believe it’s going to get quite a bit lower. I’ve had quite a few sellers “insulted” by my lowballing so far.
I like your (and Ben’s) advice, so I’ll start pretending that I am going to buy at auction and start going regularly. Like you guys say, it’s good to know how it all works so that you’re prepared when the nest egg is big enough and the prices small enough. I didn’t want to pay $50 bucks a month for Realty Trac unless I was serious, but I guess I will.
I’ve always heard it’s extremely risky to buy at auction, though…the best market if you actually plan to live in the house is REOs. Any thoughts?
I want to go for the education. I don’t plan on buying anything until at least 2011 and so far nothing in San Diego County is even close to what I would consider paying. I don’t think auctions are reflecting true values yet because a lot of people still have their heads in the sand. (Or elsewhere, but didn’t want to share a mental picture of that! )
My understanding is that in San Diego (remember, according to the NAR every market is different) it’s the REO’s and short sales that are bringing down the median - the undistressed sales are much higher priced. However, because the number of REO’s and SS’s sales are so much greater than the “real” sales it is still having a huge influence on our prices - the median now down over 25%.
Eventually banks WILL have to sell homes at market and the auctions will be more realistic where every home sells to a third party instead of 1 in 10. (Or whatever the number is.) But unless I’ve been watching the market carefully and know the ins and outs of auctions I won’t be able to spot the deals. Hence, go to learn. I think it was a great suggestion Ben. (And I’m not just kissing up to get a tee-shirt. )
Over 90% of the houses at auction get purchased back by the bank. I think it’s 96%. I don’t see the point. In San Diego the banks are usually listing them well below their buy back purchase price and getting people to fight over them. Right now there is too much competition for the foreclosures. I’m keeping my powder dry and waiting. I don’t expect to see a real deal for awhile.
I agree. People are so used to 10%+ gains every year, that a 10% pullback is seen as great opportunity to get back in.
I need to see much more purging in this market and sleepless nights among my peers before I’m ready…
I agree. Today, three houses in the same complex near me were new REO listings. I contacted an agent regarding making a low offer for one of them, and he said not to bother trying. There are lots of knifecatchers out there still. I’ll wait.
“…I don’t think auctions are reflecting true values yet because a lot of people still have their heads in the sand….”
And they never will…what seems to be lost in translation is that these events are only “auctions and sales” in name only and unless you are willing to make the bank whole on a FB defaulted loan plus the attorney fee’s that it cost to get to that point…then you won’t be buying…irregardless of what the market says or dictates…
That’s one thing that is consistently wrong on this blog is that trustee sales somehow reflect the market…not so… in a market like this 99.9% will be overpriced..if not the owner would have been able to save the home or sell it 90% of the time…every now and then one will slip through the cracks because of illness or death that has a equitable position or rendered a good deal but there will be plenty of competition for it…
“…Eventually banks WILL have to sell homes at market and the auctions will be more realistic where every home sells to a third party instead of 1 in 10…”
It’s a rigged game…it’ll never happen…here’s why…by the time this property gets to the point of foreclosure the paper has been sold and repurchased maybe 6 or 7 times…by the time it gets to to the steps it the paper on this property has probably has probably been bundled into a pool of mortgages designated as non-performing and sold to an investor for 10 -25 cents on the dollar…what is his motivation to discount and get it sold…when he can let if foreclose…take it back, evaluate it and put it out on the market 80 to 90 cents on the dollar, write off the commission and repairs as a tax write off etc etc….you’ll never ever get relief on the courthouse steps…
If you want to know values go to the courthouse and research sales on the market
“I think this is a great idea. Any San Diego people up for an auction and lunch or coffee? ”
Sounds fun and cozy. I’m game. I’ll bring a presspass and photograph the winners! E me.
I’m willing to join anyone in L.A., O.C., S.B. or Riverside.
I’m in the Riverside area on some weekends, and I see the auctions by that one home company advertised often. Next time they swing around, let’s go!
Ouro,
Would you post the link for the San Francisco pictures. I have another name to add to the pictures.
Thanks.
Ouro’s phtobucket link
http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm1/anngogh/
BayQT~
http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm1/anngogh/?albumview=slideshow
I’ve been jazzing up the site with area photos around here. I welcome any other people, critter and area photos.
annmoorman@att.net
Ouro Verde - I have it somewhere but can you repost your e-mail? Am looking forward to seeing the SD crowd again.
What do the T-Shirts say?
“I Caused The Housing Bubble to Burst and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt” and Ben’s URL on the back.
“In the second quarter, the Torrance apartment occupancy rate dropped by 1.8 percent to 95.5 percent, signalling a softening of rental demand.”
I don’t understand. I thought the prevailing wisdom was that occupancy rates would go up with all those foreclosed people looking for a place to live. Could it be that LA is losing people back to mexico and other states? Are multiple people living in apartments? Roommates? How are bunk bed sales doing in LA?
Some FB are taking on boarders too.
The demand for houses was a phantom demand.
In other words, when a flipper purchased 10 properties, the powers-that-be counted it as 20 people (or so).
And when those homes go into foreclosure, since they were unoccupied in the first place (despite the loan stating that it was ‘owner-occupied’), there is no requirement for a rental to a person that did not exist in the first place.
Hence the supposed rental demand is phantom as well.
SMF,
Perzactly. What are we to expect when everybody is “building” a new home before their existing home even has a bona-fide offer on it? ( Let alone SOLD ) I think we can place puh-lenty of the blame right there.
Yeah I remember that. When they said they were building a home, silly me I thought they were really building it themselves, not picking out floor coverings on a spec home.
Extremely good point, just like what happened in the dotcom boom/bust to Cisco. Customers placed repeated orders, trying to move up in the queue, then cancelled the ones they really didn’t need. However, the material planning system didn’t understand that, so when demand suddenly slumped, there was a double whammy.
I agree with your analysis 100%. I suspect we will see a rental crash before the much ballyhooed bottom arrives.
People are moving out of California. My next door neighbor is moving out of the state in September because she (and her husband) just cannot afford the rents and the gas prices.
I’m not sure rents are that much cheaper elsewhere. We have a person here at work who’s moving to Atlanta, and her rent is going to be about the same.
And I’m certain that the savings in gas costs will be overcome by the moving expense.
That being said, the more people who leave California the better. Less traffic.
In the words of Spicolli: “Awesome! Totally awesome!”
The low-priced apartments are definitely losing people here in Tucson.
Its been somewhat established in the LA mainstream media that the metro is losing people. At what rate and in what quantity, I do not know. I do know that enrollments in the school districts have dropped over the past year, maybe past 2 years.
IIRC, I read the Los Angeles Unified School District is in the process of building 161+ new schools, mostly to educate the future scholars of America, the illegals and anchor children. If the population is shrinking in the illegal population in L A, maybe they can cut back on building. The new schools are butt ugly, painted in bright Aztec colors too.
I guess I would like to see some neo-classical buildings, old world brick and wood slats. That’s what I love about UCLA. Brick buildings are ageless.
yes, I like the stability & classic form of old brick buildings. been looking at Old Town Marysville (CA)for years, checking out the 2-story historic district structures. downtown retail spaces also, with the classic 50’s-60’s-70’s design. dont see that anymore as most towns have replaced their downtowns into stucco. its all so bland.
considered buying a 2-story brick as an investment, just around the corner from the Silver Dollar Saloon … wondered why it was for sale for so many years … until one day I noticed the “Salvation Army” banner in a next door storefront, with the obligitory morning drunk out front. I’m no elitist, I just dont have the deep pockets to cover any unforseen periods of empty rental if the vagrancy factor comes into play.
brick buildings are ageless in non-seismic zones, but you don’t build with brick on the San Andreas fault!
“DataQuick analyst John Karevoll said home prices in the Inland market are ‘too low’ based on economic indicators, including household income and demand, and he predicted ‘the market will come back up once it reaches bottom.’”
Give this man a genius award. Of course the market will (eventually) come up once it reaches bottom. That is the DEFINITION of bottom — the lowest price. Since it IS the lowest price, the market must by definition “come back up”. Duh,
And count DQ as another industry booster. How is it Karevolls position to decide what prices anywhere should be? May some FBs remember this statement when they get put out on their ass.
Ben,
Well that and he hasn’t been right about A THING yet!
What was the quote they’re going to put on his tombstone?
“Indications of stress are notably absent”
How about this from DQ:
‘According to DataQuick, the typical mortgage approved last month throughout the region carried a monthly payment of $1,671, down from $1,713 in May and $2,430 a year ago.’
Isn’t it better that people can get the EXACT SAME HOUSE for hundreds less per month? Aren’t the high payments responsible for millions of households losing almost everything? DQ, you’re busted.
IE “too low based on economic indicators”?!! BWAH-HA-HA-HA!! What economic indicators?!! Really, I want ot know what economic model this butt-plug is using. Can anyone help me on this? Maybe I’ve been wrong all along and the 50K a year wage earner should be buying 400K homes.
“IE “too low based on economic indicators”?!! BWAH-HA-HA-HA!! What economic indicators?!!”
Incomes a few years ago “supported” much higher prices and incomes haven’t dropped, so therefore prices must be too low.
Of course those incomes never supported those higher prices, price inflation for necessities was lower then, gas prices were much lower then, and wages may drop. Some of those higher prices are never coming back. Those prices are definitely not “too low” . Based on economic indicators, they should be going much lower.
So San Francisco prices are holding up. I never cease to be amazed why people buy property in places like San Francisco. I owned a townhouse in Northridge, ca. in 1994 and a condo in West Hollywood, ca. when the earthquake hit. My in-laws were living in the townhouse. The Northridge townhouse was, basically, a write off. Fortunately, the complex via the homeowners assocition was insured but I was told, when repairs were finally completed, that the price tag was $15 million.
It was however, yet another nail in the coffin of my owning property in California. As soon as the last of my in-laws passed away, I sold.
The list/history of earthquakes in Los Angeles and San Francisco goes waaaaaay back and (as many experts have stated) it isn’t a matter of, “If a earthquake of magnitude 7 or 8 arrives,” it’s a case of, “When a earthquake of magnitude 7 or 8 arrives…”
It so happened that I was heavily insured (no deductable) for the 1994 earthquake but many of the other owners did not take out the extra coverage and ended up paying big bucks out of pocket.
Now let’s move forward 14 years. California has big financial problems. People are moving out of California because it’s too expensive to live.
It’s already showing up in the news that many homeowners who were burned out in the recent wildfires were VERY under-insured and if another (WHEN another!) earthquake hits a major city like SF or L.A, it will be a disaster for many homeowners yet people still buy these over-inflated homes. Amazing.
I wouldn’t define double-digit drops as “holding up”, but I guess it’s still special, and that’s all that really counts.
I was born in 65 and had a childhood fear of earthquakes. 42 years later, I have only felt a few. Yes, it will happen, but I will probably be dead first.
When it happens, you won’t feel the same about earthquakes. I used to think they were fun.
- 1989 Loma Prieta veteran… on the ground in Cupertino and Santa Cruz.
It’s the aftershocks… for months, a truck would drive by, and everyone in the room would twitch.
I was in the 1989 EQ in east county near SF. It was weird being cut off from news and it felt lonely. I ran outside just in time to have telephones lines explode above me. Not good.
I was driving on my way to my local watering hole and chop restaurant. I didn’t feel a thing. I got out of the car, walked in and was totally PO’d as I wanted to watch the game. The power was off. It served the Giants right that they had to go to Oakland to get their clocks cleaned.
I was born in S.F in 1956 and have never liked earthquakes.
I was at Candlestick watching my dream come true World Series - Giants and A’s when the earthquake hit. Sitting out in center field in the pull out section. First thought the shaking was from the crowd stomping their feet, then oh God, hearing the creaking sound of the upper deck and watching it swing back and forth.
Like you MacAttack, the aftershocks had me and my family twitching. I still get that panic feeling (whether to run or crawl under the table) when I feel earthquakes to this day.
I’m an earthquake magnet. I felt Santa Barbara ‘78, Livermore ‘79, Loma Prieta ‘89, Joshua Tree ‘92, and Northridge ‘94. Nothing of ours was damaged in any of them, but the jolts or rocking were scary each time.
I spoke to a family relation about earthquakes. They are under insured and a little worried. They are not to worried because they know the Gov. will come in like last time and pass our free cash.
An earthquake could be a black swan event to get CA. housing up again. The Goverment comes in and gives money away. This puts all the construction workers back in business and keep them off the Gov dole.
CA has been or a roll since the last Northridge earthquake. The saying was in 1991-1994: Stay alive until 95. But then the eartquake came and the good times rolled again. Everyone recieved a low rate loan and insurance money.
Does this mean we should hope for more fires and floods because the rebuilding will put California back on our feet? NOT hehehehehehehe
I was at jr. high age in the 71 earthquake,and barely remember it, sacred us, no school, a new experience. We lived in North Hollywood.
Fast forward to 94 and that was one heck of a shake. I have never, ever felt the ground shake so violently. We lived in Moorpark, 2 story McMansion. We didn’t have a filled lot, but the people who did had their home tagged. It took 18 to 24 months before they were back in their homes.
We’re due for another one. Interesting tidbit about the 1906 San Franciso quake from the Lloyds of London website. They paid all claims in full regardless of exclusions. Great pictures too.
71 quake “scared” us = typing in the dark!
I’m glad folks are leaving Cali, good riddance. Too many hoppers came here looking for days of wine & roses and paved over paradise.
The people may leave, but the pavement will stay…. unfortunately.
some people talk about razing houses in the CV and replanting crops, but there’s one problem….there ain’t no topsoil anymore!
Aladinsane’s list from the morning:
BNP Paribas Securities Corp
Bank of America Corp
Barclays PLC
Citigroup Inc
Credit Suisse Group
Daiwa Securities Group Inc
Deutsche Bank Group AG
Allianz SE
Goldman Sachs Group Inc
Royal Bank ADS
HSBC Holdings Plc ADS
JPMorgan Chase & Co
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc
Merrill Lynch & Co Inc
Mizuho Financial Group Inc
Morgan Stanley
UBS AG
Freddie Mac
Fannie Mae
My question: Is there a limitation on this new ruling, time wise? I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was a one month deal or some such. If that is the case then won’t these same issues fall off a cliff as soon as the prohibition is revoked?
A related note: Any traded bank that doesn’t appear on this list and was previously though to be in decent shape has now had, IMO, a nice bright red ACME target affixed to it’s back by the plungers.
Well, the entire market is screwed now. If the game can be changed at any time in order to benefit those who are betting on a certain team, then it’s really not a game, now is it?
That’s why it’s important to know how the various players cheat. By anticipating and correcting for cheating one can still win the game.
Now, if the cheaters know that I know that they are cheating, what then? But if I know that they know that I know?
I do hope nobody actually expected the govt and financial markets to give up without a fight.. at least i hope no one is not betting on it.
This is just another hint.. a sample of the weapons at their disposal.. hmm.. i’ve heard this somewhere before.
…i hope no one is
notbetting on it.Sorry to sound stupid, but I still don’t understand where the list came from. There was no link.
http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-143.htm
Thanks Joey.
“DataQuick analyst John Karevoll said the high number of foreclosures has skewed the averages, making the price declines seem bigger than they actually are.”
“People seem to think that prices have come down 25 (percent) to 30 percent and they haven’t. But there is the appearance of that,” he said.”
John, John, John, foreclosures are the market now. Prices have come down that much and more. In San Diego those little 450 sq ft crap boxes in the ghetto are now being listed at half off their peak price.
Exactly! Why should a seller pay more for a nonforeclosure, when there are 2-3 comparable (maybe even identical) foreclosures for sale at 20-30% off? The buyer doesn’t give a yam’s eye whether or not the seller is in distress.
Right . When you have this many foreclosures ,than the foreclosures become the market price . What it really means is that you had a bunch of real estate demand that was based on “unable buyers” or fraud ,or speculation . Now that these borrowers are distressed borrowers who could not maintain ownership without refinancing or selling for more than they paid ,the market is reduced to having over-supply, with few buyers that can afford the lofty prices that were developed during the boom . IMHO the market will over correct
downward before it ever starts going up again .
Just look at how some of these neighborhoods are being destroyed . Do people really think that they can get their money out when a project of 100 homes has 40 foreclosures ? And the very fact that many neighborhood contributed to raising the values in other neighborhoods ,even if you got a stable neighborhood ,it will be brought down by all the neighborhoods that surround it .
Also ,the borrower walkers are creating damage on their way out ,which ends up creating lower prices overall . Its a never ending snowball of destruction of values (that were fake values to begin with of course ).
Local credit unions are getting calls from panicked IndyMac customers seeking a safe haven for their money. Mike Theodore, CEO of E-Central Credit Union in Pasadena, said his company has already fielded a fair amount of calls.”
“And the tone of those calls? ‘Panicked,’ he said. ‘Normally when we have people call who are thinking about joining they ask what our rates are. But now it’s ‘What is your insurance?’”
_____________________________________________________________
As the race for the exits really gets going, dwindling choices as to where best put your money, should make the proceedings very interesting…
That’s why I think the banks who currently have good ratings will eventually be very safe. Their capitalization will increase with each failure of an inferior bank.
As posted yesterday, a brand new bank may be the best place for your money “cause they haven’t been around long enough to make bad loans.
Was in Well Fargo and the teller said they have booked millions in new accounts in the last few days.
A new version of banking musical chairs. Hey this could be a new web site. All the banks in a circle and you bet on the bank to not get a seat. Go offshore and make it real fun game. Like the Internet death site back a few years ago. But with this one you get to bet on who’s next!
I can see it: F*ckedBank.com
Pelosi talkin’ shit about Bush (he he)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/17/pelosi.interview/index.html
“…losing all credibility with the American people on the economy, on the war, on energy, you name the subject…”
I thought he had enough gas to get through until 1/20/09 and pretend it was all another admin’s fault. Looks like sweet release - in an incontinent context - will happen before that.
In some ways, it’s as if ’ssshrubery wants the country to go down with him, you almost get the feeling…
Alad,
Contempt is an emotion I avoid at all cost, as it is so damaging to my spirit.
Whenever I see his picture or hear his voice, I run screaming and violently shaking, away from the direction of said sight or sound.
Ya just can’t make this stuff up.
Leigh
What I want to know is who are the 25-30% of Americans who still approve of Bush? I mean, I don’t blame Bush or his administration for all of our current maladies, far from it. But still, it seems that by pretty much any metric and regardless of what your political persuasion is, his has been a pretty abysmal presidency that only seems to get progressively worse…
That poll showed that its (congressional) approval rating had reached an anemic 14 percent,
Bush seems to be more popular than congress.. i wonder if it’s because people like Pelosi blame the Pres for things only congress can approve or disapprove… for money only Congress can allocate.. for rules and regulation that were or were not passed that only Congress could pass or not pass.
anyway, Bush went out and kicked ass when we were attacked. That alone is enough for me to place him high above anyone else in the federal govt.
We attacked Saudi Arabia?
Yeah Bush sure taught those terrorists a lesson or two…
Details, details…
What matters is he came out fighting. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Sometimes I wonder what George Bush would of been like
had he not been way-laid or side-tracked by this Country being attacked . Really, what a situation for any President to deal with . I remember at the time ,the biggest concern of the public was that another attack might come . I don’t think America has ever really been the same since the attacks on the World Trade Center .
Nancy Pelousy has no, and I mean NO, cred to attack Bush. I’m no fan of shrub by any means, but I do recall Pelousy’s pious spouting about “impeachment is off the table”. Like an insane parent standing by nodding and smiling while watching a rape and doing nothing to intervene, and then, after the fact, getting up on her hind legs and condemning the act.
“I don’t think America has ever really been the same since the attacks on the World Trade Center .”
=====================
Are you forgetting the “attack” on the Pentagon…?
I don’t care for Pelosi either.
She rolled over and gave Bush everything he wanted for FISA. A pox on both houses.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but is Stockton (the foreclosure capital of the world) entering into the next phase of bubbledom?
The clearing of the inventory and thus the bottoming of prices?
For perspective, I listened to a homebuilder in So. Cal. before the bubble began (very late 90’s, early 00’s). HIs business model revolved around buying land as cheaply as he could find and build small new homes with a pricetags in the high one hundred thousands. He was barely able to build the homes cheaply enough, but it was his opinion that in pretty much any locale in CA, he could find a buyer if he could deliver a decently built brand new 3/2 for $199,000. I really liked the business model–thought he could do well if he could deliver the homes as inexpensively as he said.
Subsequent to that, oil based products, steel and concrete have all rocketed up in price.
Once inventory clears, prices will have a hard time falling further, since you will have very little new construction at those prices (low $200k’s). So, we’ll bounce off the foreclosure induced lows, and builders will begin to build to the new market.
Despite the article, I still think this won’t be for another 12-24 months in Stockton, but inventories shrinking is a headline–sales outpacing foreclosures in Stockton is new.
The big question is when will excess inventory clear? Nothing profitable can happen development-wise until then. Bottom calling is everyone’s favorite sport nowadays.
12-24 months to clear the current 4500 REO/3500 Preforeclosure?
What’s the population of Stockton and how many sales this year so far?
Of course foreclosure will hit bottom sometime, when they run out of home to foreclose! There should be a RentalWatcher watch to track your predictions.
The house I’m bidding on at present has been foreclosed on twice since ‘06. Don’t forget the multiplier effect.
According to lodinews.com, through the end of May there have been 1,312 home sales in Stockton–add another 493 in June, and you have 1,805 homes sold for the first half of the year. Sales volumes have been steadily increasing in the Stockton throughout that time. According to the article, sales outpaced new foreclosures by 300 homes last month. FYI-Stockton has a population of about 300,000.
PMZ realty (the firm that the guy quoted in the article works for) recently said that they have been having their best business in company history (and they’ve been around for a while). Lots of homes are selling. Yes, they are foreclosures, but the market has begun to clear.
A “normal” market will not have 0 inventory, in San Joaquin, I think a “normal” inventory would be closer to 1,000 homes–at about 2k home sales per year (less than half the current pace), this would be 6 months of inventory. Clearing of inventory in 24 months would require the shrinking of inventory by ~150 homes per month (half of the current pace). Current pace puts it at about 12 months. But, sales volumes are going up, not down, so overall, I think that 12-24 months is probably a fair estimate of getting back to “normal” levels of inventory. Call it 18 months as the midpoint, or end of 2009.
For perspective, inventories have already fallen from 6,100 to current levels at about 4,500 homes in less than a year. Some of these homes were pulled from the market (didn’t sell) and will find their way back, but the overall trend is for inventories to shrink in San Joaquin County.
OT here. Sorry–
Can anybody tell me if the FDIC is limited in the amount of funds it has for failed banks? I remember hearing somewhere that beyond 50 Billion or something like that depositors were SOL. Fact or urban myth???
If it ever got to the point of the FDIC running out of money and the CONgress not being able to pay the tab with tax payer money to cover insured deposits,
It would be game over.
FDIC running out of money and the CONgress not being able to pay the tab
Cannot happen. The government controls the printing presses, which are mostly electronic anyways. However, should they decide to go the “Weimar” route, we may have to pay for our groceries with wheelbarrows of Ameripesos.
I gotta believe there’s a finite amount of ink and paper, or silicon to hold one’s and zero’s, in this world.
I believe they are currently at approx. the $52 billion mark. With approx. $4 bananas going to IndyMac, that leaves $48′ish billion. The sooner your bank goes bk, the better! J/k, they seem to have sufficient funds for now, and there’s always a Resolution Trust type arrangement that could be implemented if they’re close to running out of money. IOW, they’ll probably never really run out of money.
I heard $50B today from my partner. And that Indymac could take $15B of that…ouch.
Whither the Alt-A Bay Area?
Bay Area median price dives below $500K; sales near record low
July 17, 2008
La Jolla, CA.—-The median price paid for a Bay Area home plunged to $485,000 in June, marking the first time in more than four years that it was below the half-million mark, DataQuick Information Systems reported.
…
“Once again the quest for a bargain kept Bay Area home sales out of record-low territory,” said John Walsh, DataQuick president. “So far it’s been mostly the inland areas where prices have dropped enough to rejuvenate sales. Our latest stats might be signaling greater price reductions on the coast, where sales have been severely restrained by several factors: higher prices, tighter lending guidelines, inadequate liquidity for jumbo mortgages and depreciation in inland areas that’s left homeowners there with less equity with which to purchase a home on the coast.”
Before the credit crunch hit last August, jumbo mortgages (over $417,000) made up nearly 65 percent of all Bay Area purchase loans. In June they accounted for 28.8 percent, up from 28.4 percent in May.
Did big brother shut down this blog or is there something wrong with my computer?
This is all nonsense. Come to LA…GLendale/Burbank, Pasadena, etc…you’d never guess there was a housing problem. People there are either still to dumb, have too much money, or don’t care and continue to pay exorbitant prices for homes. Do you think the folks up on the hills of Laurel Canyon give a rat’s ass what’s going on in San Bernandino county?
Prices are STILL too high.