July 28, 2008

One Statistic Everyone Can Agree On In Florida

The News Press reports from Florida. “Michael and Judith Van Dress have a lot of privacy and not a lot of competition when they use the brand-new fitness center at their condominium in Concordia. They moved to the north Cape Coral community a year ago, just as construction of the project was grinding to a halt in Southwest Florida’s floundering residential real estate market.”

Living at Concordia is a strange mixture of sparkling new amenities and subtle signs of decay, says Judith, who with her husband retired from Ohio. ‘There’s not a lot of occupants here,’ she said.”

“Welcome to life at the half-builts, the many projects large and small that sit largely vacant and partly completed - left high and dry when the housing market tide went out.”

“Experts say the wave of speculation that peaked at the end of 2005 - when the median resale price of a home was $322,300 - caused a spurt of construction at prices nobody could pay. According to figures released Thursday, the median resale price in June was $172,400.”

“There are no exact statistics on how many such developments there are in Lee County, but ‘you’re not talking about a few units,’ according to commercial real estate broker Jim Simon.”

“‘It’s in the thousands,’ he said.”

“A typical condo in Concordia can be had for about $100,000. That’s 63 percent less than the $267,900 the Van Dresses paid in April 2007.”

“Concordia’s sales office is still open, but the developer ran out of money last summer when its main lender pulled the plug on financing and filed a foreclosure action for $23.4 million on the partially completed, 34-building, 340-unit condominium.”

“Robert Thomas signed a pre-construction contract to buy a condo in the new Green’s Edge development in December 2005, at the height of the housing boom. The market crashed the following month and his unit was never built at the huge project off Colonial Boulevard in Fort Myers.”

“Now he’s trying to get his $84,000 down payment back from builder Harp Development, because the builder never put up his building and he counts himself lucky. The project sits empty.”

“Thomas freely admits he was buying the Green’s Edge unit as an investment. He hoped to sell it for a profit after it was built.”

“‘I had no intention to live there,’ Thomas said.”

“For the Van Dresses, a little peace and quiet isn’t all bad, but ‘there’s a lot of little things you see that are going to wrack and ruin,’ Judith Van Dress said, such as clotheslines and basketball hoops and people walking large dogs without the use of pooper scoopers - all in violation of the community’s regulations.”

“‘It isn’t one thing, it’s a lot of things,’ she said. ‘It wouldn’t attract people to buy the property. I would never buy it at this point.’”

The Herald Tribune. “Gloria Chaignet’s attempt at real estate ‘flipping’ three years ago has left her life upside-down today. Chaignet and hundreds of others were trying to tap into the frenzied real estate market where homes and condos often ‘flipped,’ or resold, one or more times while being built — each time leaving many a buyer with a bucketload of money.”

“So with an eye out to help her children, Chaignet and some co-workers got wind of a can’t-miss deal — and bit.”

“But it turned out that pretty much everyone lost. ‘It wasn’t done by greed,’ Chaignet said. ‘I’m a single mom with two kids going into college and I thought this could help pay for their college.’”

“Ground was never broken on Chaignet’s North Port home, but the builder continued to take draws on the mortgage loan she signed for, that one that seemed oh-so-easy to get. She said her builder stopped returning phone calls. E-mails to the company bounced back as undeliverable.”

“‘It sounded like a really great deal, but the more we got involved in it we found out differently,’ she said. ‘They probably never had any intention of building any of the homes.’”

“She said her sons will still be able to go to college, but it will be paid for by a lot of credit cards instead of investment returns. ‘I feel like I was raked over the coals,’ she said. ‘I feel like I was part of a bank scam and I feel like I was completely snowed.’”

The Cape Coral Daily Breeze. “The tide of low sales in Cape Coral and Fort Myers may be turning, according to a June 2008 report from the Florida Association of Realtors. Last month 719 single family homes were sold in the region, an increase from 558 sold in June 2007. Some Realtors may consider these sales good news because it decreases the unprecedented vacant home supply, but while sales continue upward, prices dropped 32 percent.”

“Median prices for single family homes dropped from $253,900 a year earlier to $172,400 today.”

“‘In my opinion anytime we are up is a good sign,’ said Tommy Lee, president of the Cape Coral Realtor’s Association. ‘There is no doubt property is moving. It is the land of affordable properties again.’”

“Gloria Tate, a Realtor with Raso Realty, said that the sales increases are a result of the banks dealing more swiftly with pre-foreclosures and short sales. ‘A lot of listings we have are short sales. People are making offers on short sales and banks are getting a little more quicker on their response time making it easier to close,’ said Tate.”

“Today there are 4,835 pre-foreclosure properties in Cape Coral, according to Realty Trac. According to Tate, lower prices and an expedited foreclosures process ‘is making it affordable for people to own a home in Cape Coral.’”

The St Petersburg Times. “For two years, real estate agents have had no luck finding a buyer for the 3,800-square-foot home David Frishman built as an investment on Bradenton’s exclusive Hawk Island. Now, stuck with $12,000 monthly payments, Frishman is trying to sell the house in a less conventional way - he has put it up for bid on eBay.”

“With a day left to go, the responses have been disappointing. ‘Most are just sort of predatorial,’ says Frishman, who has heard from people wanting him to refinance or take less than his $1.5-million starting bid.”

“As of Sunday, eBay’s real estate category had 4,029 listings, a tiny but growing number of the site’s 17-million listings. Among the properties offered for sale were 348 in Florida.”

“A five-bedroom canal-front home in the MiraBay development of southern Hillsborough County. Bought for $695,000 in 2005 at the peak of the boom, it was foreclosed by the lender and is now listed for $399,999.”

“A two-story, lakefront home in the Lee County town of Estero for $265,000. The owners, who paid $346,800 for the house in 2005, need to sell because they have another place in foreclosure proceedings.”

“At a starting bid of $1.5-million, the assessed value, the Hawk Island house would seem a great deal in a new gated community where some lots alone are listed at the same price. But while the auction has drawn 3,804 views, not one bid had come in as of Sunday.”

“‘We’re just trying anything at this point,’ Frishman says of his eBay auction, which ends today. ‘It certainly wouldn’t be our first option, but when you’re trying to save your home, you don’t leave any option unturned.’”

My Fox Tampa Bay. “The Greater Tampa Association of realtors says home sales are up by 76% since January. At the same time, California based Realty Trac reports we have double the rate of home foreclosures.”

“All this conflicting information leaves some people feeling as though they’re caught in the middle. Morgan Barfield is one of them. He put $80,000.00 worth of renovations into a south Tampa home.”

“‘Countless people have come by offering just a real low ball offer, probably a third of the value,’ Barfield said.”

“If there is one statistic everyone can agree on, it’s the price of a home. It’s down by nearly 8% since January.”

The Palm Beach Post. “Melbourne-based Mercedes Homes continues to cleanse its books of land in Port St. Lucie. The latest deal: The builder’s 29.5-acre Savanna Trace development sold for $1.35 million this month. The buyer was not a house builder - it was a house of worship.”

“Mercedes was approved to build 80 homes on the property, but the market flagged and construction never started. The company bought the property in 2004, St. Lucie County property records show. Last year, it transferred it internally for $1.9 million, records show.”

“In December, the firm got rid of 130 of its vacant lots in Port St. Lucie, selling them for $2.52 million to investor William Brisben. Brisben snagged some of the lots for as much as $70,000 less than what Mercedes paid for them.”

The Orlando Sentinel. “Former Darden executive Doug Doran, who had partnered with Veranda Park developer Kevin Azzouz to develop restaurants for the Italian-themed town center in MetroWest, said last week he has parted ways with Azzouz.”

“Doran said he stopped working with Azzouz in late March as a result of the sharp downturn in the real-estate market. Doran, who had formed a partnership with Azzouz called Group Four Restaurants, said the ‘horrible economic’ environment made it ‘tough’ to open additional restaurants in Azzouz’s development.”

“‘It made no sense,’ Doran told the Orlando Sentinel.”

“Azzouz has run into financial trouble with condo developments in Veranda Park, facing several foreclosure lawsuits.”

The News Herald. “The population of every city in Bay County, except Panama City Beach, decreased between July 2006 and July 2007, according to recently released annual estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau. For Panama City, it was the third straight year of decline, from 37,526 in July 2005 and 37,227 in July 2006 to 36,805 for July 2007.”

“Panama City Mayor Scott Clemons was not alarmed by the numbers. ‘Our growth has been flat for many years,’ he said. ‘Our area has been affected by the economy, it’s more expensive to build and we’re landlocked, with the exception of northern Panama City and the current airport property.’”

“‘Our decrease in population in other municipalities could be due to the many Katrina evacuees that are slowly moving back to their home states,’ said Carol Roberts, president of the Bay County Chamber of Commerce. ‘In addition, individuals are also moving to unincorporated areas of our county, pursuing more affordable housing.’”

“Bay County Economic Development Alliance Executive Director Ted Clem said it’s hard to cite one cause of population decline in the area, but he believes the construction slowdown is a main player.”

“‘From 2003 to 2006, construction was our strongest engine for job growth. Since then, we’ve had 3,000 workers displaced’ in that field, he said.”

“Lynn Haven Commissioner Joseph Ashbrook said the minimal dip could be due to some people getting fed up with living in hurricane- and flood-prone areas, and new residential construction ‘isn’t selling.’”




RSS feed | Trackback URI

79 Comments »

Comment by michael
2008-07-28 07:48:31

“She said her sons will still be able to go to college, but it will be paid for by a lot of credit cards instead of investment returns.”

Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!

Comment by packman
2008-07-28 08:20:58

Cripes I can’t believe people can be that stupid.

IT’S THE INTEREST RATE STUPID.

Student loans can be had for a *lot* better interest rate than credit cards.

Comment by walt526
2008-07-28 09:09:17

If the kids are as dumb as mom, sending them to “college” is likely not the best use of her bank’s money.

And yeah… pretty much anyone (ie, its not need based) can get a unsubsidized Stafford loan for 6.0% fixed (6.8% for graduate students). And the rate will be dropping to 3.4% over the next few years. The limit is ~$10k per year (~$20k for graduates).

Not to mention a student loan (even if all the interest has been capitalized) looks better on your credit report than a maxed out credit card…

Idiots.

Comment by Nozferatu
2008-07-28 10:03:46

It’s irrelevant how stupid they are. We will end up bailing them out…..

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by denquiry
2008-07-28 09:11:49

yes, but credit card debt is unsecured. you don’t have to pay it back if the mood suits you. Student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Scammers can scam the credit card companies but would not be able to scam Uncle Sam with a student loan.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-07-28 10:23:56

Credit cards are essentially free money. Stupid not to use them if you don’t care about being in credit purgatory for 7 years.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by walt526
2008-07-28 10:36:16

Check out the BK Reform of 2005. Discharging CC debt is no longer very easy.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-07-28 11:50:19

Check out the BK Reform of 2005.

I suspect this book will be collecting dust an inch thick over the next several years.

 
 
 
Comment by Hey Boo Boo
2008-07-28 10:04:48

It is also tax deductible like a mortgage interest. Student loan is the way to go.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-07-28 11:41:30

Anyone remember when CC interest was tax deductible?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2008-07-28 11:54:22

I remember that. I’ll bet the banks fought removing that tooth and nail. I’m amazed it made it actually (but glad).

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 12:36:33

In Colorado,

Right, that was Step 1 in enabling the bubble. Subprime loans basically didn’t exist. As more filers noticed they could write off int. on their 2nd… Boom!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-07-28 07:53:19

Whoo whee! These FL folks are losing more on deposits or rennovations than the entire cost of my hole-in-the-wall. I hope these folks are all closet millionaires…oh wait!

Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 08:55:40

John,

Did a lot of thinking about that over the weekend. Not only are many recent buyers seriously underwater, they bought strictly high-end homes in neighborhoods where EVERY possible amenity was already included in their “turn-key” 500k+ home.

There’s little if anything they can do to “improve” their home or make it more appealing if they are trying to sell. In-ground sprinkler? Central air? Indoor RV parking? ( It would be even MORE difficult to sell if you *didn’t already have that stuff! ) All they can do is go along for the ride as further upgrades can only make you stand out from the competition from a “value” perspective, not a profitability standpoint.

Well just to play the other end of the spectrum if one of us bought a total fixer for tear down value, hell, it can only improve from there?!

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-07-28 09:57:25

As the focus shifts more and more to keeping jobs and fiscal survival, the amenities you point out will lose a disportionate amount of their “value” as compared to basic housing. People will want the cheapest rent and/or price they can get - and those who can offer them the cheapest rent/price without losing their shirts will do the best.

Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 10:45:34

edgewaterjohn,

Oh you mean keeping “your” job! LOL! I’d think there’d be a free fall in the perception of value in these amenities. It may be more than knee-jerk as people weigh what really IS necessary? Can I endure the shame of my wife not having a central vac. system? In 2005, the answer was NO! Now? We’ll be surprised at what people can do without.

After 4 years of bubble-sitting ( 3 of which in a brand new condo ) I think I’ve had enough of a vacation from projects. Probably still too early but my guess is that REO flops may be your best value going forward? In many cases flippers dumped 30-50k into them and then abandoned their infestment.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-07-28 12:11:49

Don’t forget the accidental landlords too. They’ll be plenty desperate after another year or two of this.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 12:39:36

edgewaterjohn,

The Acc. LL’s really are the key aren’t they? They’re the unknown vairable at this point. Will they send in the jingle mail, tough it out, rent it out, move in?

We really don’t know where they stand do we?

 
 
 
 
Comment by mikey
2008-07-28 12:21:27

The only difference between a Florida house or condo and a coffin today is the 1st two have MIGHT still have their door-knobs and a bell :)

 
 
Comment by Maria
2008-07-28 07:56:21

“As of Sunday, eBay’s real estate category had 4,029 listings, a tiny but growing number of the site’s 17-million listings. Among the properties offered for sale were 348 in Florida.”

Population of America is approximately 300 Million to 400 Million. If I assume that the there 2.5 people leaving for per house (average) and the home ownership is 65%. The 17-million listings on e-Bay would mean that the 21.79 % - 16.3 % (based on the total population range) of the total houses in the America are for sale.

This is mind blowing

Comment by Austin_Martin
2008-07-28 08:11:49

I think that they are saying that eBay has 17 million listings of everything(not houses).

 
Comment by Steve W
2008-07-28 08:12:27

There’s only 4,029 real estate listings, the 17 million is probably all listings ebay has.

What was mindblowing was the stat last week that there still are something like 18 million empty houses out there.

 
Comment by evildoc
2008-07-28 08:19:34

No, it means that ebay has 17 million things for sale of which 4000 represent property/housing. This is less mind blowing than 17 million properties being for sale ;)

evildoc

 
Comment by Marcus
2008-07-28 08:21:59

That’s 4,029 house listings total. Out of 17 million listings for any type of item on ebay.

 
Comment by packman
2008-07-28 08:22:35

The 17 million is referring to *all* of eBay’s listings - e.g. including beanie babies, golf clubs, etc etc. Only 4,029 of eBay’s listings are houses.

Comment by walt526
2008-07-28 09:12:04

Who the hell buys a house on eBay? Car charger for your cell phone, sure… but a house?

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-07-28 11:08:58

I knew someone who bought a “Class A” motorhome (they’re the ones that look like a Trailways bus) from a dealer on Ebay several years ago. All he saw were photos. Needless to say he was very unhappy with his purchase. Took quite a bath selling it a year later, having driven it to a local campground just twice in that time!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Dr Billy
2008-12-09 20:36:12

I did!! I sold one of my horse farms in Ocala to an individual from Maine. He paid cash and we closed the deal 9 days after his high bid.
You have to open your mind, to see the world.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-07-28 08:01:07

So with an eye out to help her children, Chaignet and some co-workers got wind of a can’t-miss deal — and bit.”

“But it turned out that pretty much everyone lost. ‘It wasn’t done by greed,’ Chaignet said. ‘I’m a single mom with two kids going into college and I thought this could help pay for their college.’”

“Ground was never broken on Chaignet’s North Port home, but the builder continued to take draws on the mortgage loan she signed for, that one that seemed oh-so-easy to get. She said her builder stopped returning phone calls. E-mails to the company bounced back as undeliverable.”

“‘It sounded like a really great deal, but the more we got involved in it we found out differently,’ she said. ‘They probably never had any intention of building any of the homes.’”

“She said her sons will still be able to go to college, but it will be paid for by a lot of credit cards instead of investment returns. ‘I feel like I was raked over the coals,’ she said. ‘I feel like I was part of a bank scam and I feel like I was completely snowed.’”

…Yea it wasn’t greed just trying to play roulette with the kids college fund. Ever hear of a 529 and a little sacrifice?

Comment by Curt
2008-07-28 08:04:14

‘It wasn’t done by greed,’ Chaignet said.’

“Honest officer, I only had two beers”

“I never had sex with that woman”

“Believe me honey, it was a one time fling”

Got any more?

Comment by pos
2008-07-28 12:57:17

I’m waiting to hear this old favorite again, “There is nothing to fear but fear itself”.

 
Comment by Julius
2008-07-28 13:26:53

“I am not a crook”

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-07-28 14:04:43

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”

Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-07-28 16:09:41

No, but she had some with me ;)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by SaladSD
2008-07-28 16:45:39

“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .”

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-07-28 18:50:14

“Honest, your honor, I was just helping that sheep over the fence.”

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 08:44:55

baabaabooie,

Hey Now! Yeah only a lucky few were able to get on board with Free College Program and my guess is that most did from a HELOC as that didn’t involve actually selling the home? I guess the idea there was that they’d tap the equity, send kids to school, jack up the wishing price and then have ’someone else’ step in and pay for Junior’s college? Instead of calling it a 529 Plan we should have called it a GF Edu. Plan.

 
 
Comment by kpom
2008-07-28 08:02:11

““She said her sons will still be able to go to college, but it will be paid for by a lot of credit cards instead of investment returns.”

Welcome to America, 2008 - has it occurred to her how much it’s going to cost to finance a college education via credit cards? Or maybe she’s going to run the tab up and then declare BK - harder to do than it was, but still possible.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-07-28 08:06:28

What about student loans? I live in a college town, and a lot of these kids work.

Comment by baabaabooie
2008-07-28 08:12:15

College costs are just another thing ruined by government meddling. The fact that they back all the low cost loans has allowed all of these colleges to charge outrageous tutions for substandard education. Overpaid administrators and maintenance workers. If the government stopped underwriting loans most people (who probably aren’t college mat’l) wouldnt go and there would be a price war just to fill seats!!

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-07-28 08:31:21

Some good points. A lot of people use college to postpone things. I knew a young lady who ran up $60k in college loans and a bunch on credit cards, only to get out and take some admin job that didn’t require anything she studied. I bet she is still paying that off.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 08:47:48

What’s worse is that these Stafford Loans etc. are basically FREE money for the banks! The Gov. backs the loan so there is no risk to the lender. Nice work if you can get it.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-07-28 12:37:06

It seems like there are a lot of jobs these days that require a college degree that were previously performed by someone without.

There also seem to be a lot of jobs that require an MBA where in the past a BBA would suffice.

If colleges were really on the ball, they would create a degree beyond the Ph.d.

 
Comment by oxide
2008-07-28 13:51:54

They did. It’s called a “post-doc.” Two years doing extra research at university. It’s not an actual degree, but it’s fast becoming the next hurdle of education, especially if you want to become university faculty someday.

And actually, PhD’s are very expensive to pay. It’s usually cheaper to hire a BS lab rat.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-28 10:35:24

The cost of tuition is astounding these days. I like to take a course here and there. And thankfully, it’s only ONE course. It’s WAY overpriced now, at least here in WA.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-07-28 12:17:17

It’s overpriced everywhere. Then you have the textbooks. History and Math haven’t changed that much, but hey, there is a different $100 textbook every few years. I know people that buy the international versions, that is, the same books Americans buy, only they are much cheaper over seas. But now the companies have started changing the tests in the international version the thwart crafty Americans from saving money. But you can’t avoid technology, and rapid piracy of textbooks is a hydraulic press (to cut off the binding) and a scanner away.

Some of the online schools sell the students PDF copies, but the $70+ PDF files are wrapped thickly in digital rights management stuff so students can’t print out too many pages or copy them.

I do fine without college, and would only be interested if it could guarantee me at least $50K+ more a year. There has to be a real ROI.

 
 
Comment by Ed G.
2008-07-28 12:35:26

Baabaabooie,

Cheers to you. I have been thinking the same thing for a long time. The government , in an attempt to make college more affordable, has made it horribly unaffordable.

My GF owes something like $150K in student loans, and may have to take out another loan. And that’s to get out and make $30K a year to start as a mental health counsellor. What a rip-off modern college is these days.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-07-28 13:33:32

30 years ago 30% of blacks and 40% of whites went to college
if you took liberal arts it means almost nothing

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-07-28 10:34:07

You WERE able to work and pay for college tution back in the 80’s BEFORE government got involved. Once they started backing those ridiculous college loans the tution charges just exploded. From $484/semester in 1987 to $2500/semester in 2006 in the NC university system. Unfortunately the pay for pizza delivery drivers and wait staff hasn’t kept pace with the price explosion in college tution.
Thank you government for screwing up the college financing.
Get government out of the loan business. Let Fannie, Freddy and Sally fail. Don’t subsidise rich investors at the cost of the working populous.

Comment by Binko
2008-07-28 12:54:14

Very true, Mike. I went to UC Berkeley back in the early 70s. Worked construction jobs in the summer, lived cheaply during the school year and never even gave thought to borrowing money. Blows me away to see that the assumption of a huge debt load is a normal part of college life now.

Of course tuition was very reasonable back then. I also don’t remember text books costing a lot. I could get a decent summer construction job where now they would all be filled by cheap immigrant labor. Nobody had personal computers or cellphones or game consoles so you didn’t need much beyond food and rent.

Looking back on the 70s, just 30 years ago, it seems like another world. Things weren’t so relentlessly driven for profit. Middle class life was fairly stress free compared to today. We even thought of ourselves as citizens rather than consumers.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2008-07-28 13:55:30

Binko,

It’s always easier to look back and think ‘yesterday’ was an easy day? I agree, things probably were more laid back. If for no other reason than there wasn’t much of a sense of economic urgency. I was still a HS kid in Chicago at the time but I had older friends that finished college and weren’t able to find ‘decent’ jobs at all.

Inflation was very ugly and like a lot of kids in my class ( ‘77) we wound up in the military filling the “all volunteer” void in the post Nam-era. Now that I look back I can only imagine the reason things seemed so much ‘cooler’ was there wasn’t much point in even trying to get ahead?

 
Comment by Eudemon
2008-07-28 22:30:45

Sounds about right, DinOR. You and your friends were born about 1958-1960. Your life experience (including college and the ability to get jobs with your college degrees) is vastly different from those just 5-7 years older than you.

The baby boomers were born from 1938 to 1954 or so, NOT from 1946 to 1964.

I’m 4-6 years younger than you and remember being one of 34 people applying to bag groceries in the grocery store for minimum wage. I didn’t get the job.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by megamike
Comment by packman
2008-07-28 12:03:01

I give that first one about a 5% chance of actually happening within the next 10 years.

Though I’m not real tied in with Sarasota planning - if I were I’d be majorly pissed. Now is not the time to be approving huge projects like that. The kicker is this part:

The developer’s $7.8 million in road improvements would fund only a fraction of a traffic consultant’s estimated $43 million that will be needed in the wake of Proscenium’s construction.

City staff did not outline where the balance of the money for the traffic improvements would come from.

 
Comment by packman
2008-07-28 12:16:08

From the link of graphics - here’s a gem. A weak attempt by the FAR to claim that prices have already come back down to “normal” -

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080725/GRAPHICS02/352589808/2055&template=multimedia&show=graphics

Note this bit:

“Most experts agree that a normal housing market results in average appreciation somewhere between 6 and 7 percent.”

followed by:

“SOURCES: Florida Association of Realtors, Herald-Tribune reporting”

Amazing who they consider the “experts”. Of course the sad thing is that the only entity that they would probably consider as objective experts is UF - and we’ve seen all kinds of crazy fluff come out of there.

In reality if you go back beyond 1994, e.g. OFHEO data which goes back to 1983 - the normal price appreciation for Sarasota/Bradenton area is less than four percent. In fact it was exactly 3% from 1983 - 1998 (index went from 75 to 115 over a 15-year period).

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-07-28 08:56:45

From the Tampa piece: “Tampa Bay is a great market,” says the Association of Realtors’ Deborah Farmer. “There have been good economic indicators; Tampa Bay has a glut of home buyers.”
__________________________

News flash for Ms. Farmer — this area leads the state in unemployment growth. There are no good economic indicators. There is no glut of buyers, but thankfully our glut of realtors and mortgage brokers seems to be slowly resolving.

The use of the phrase “Tampa Bay” shows that Ms. Farmer’s intended audience is people who don’t live here. Locals rarely use that phrase unless they are broadcasting, fishing or referring to one of our professional sports teams.

Comment by walt526
2008-07-28 09:15:52

On the plus side, the Rays are battling the Sox and Yankees for the AL East.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-07-28 10:00:44

I’ve gone to a couple of games this year; it’s the best baseball we’ve ever had and certainly the most excitement since the team’s first opening day in 1998, which I also attended.

Comment by aqius
2008-07-28 10:58:59

just to add a little off-topic commentary to the above post; been to see the rays once myself, back when they played in the thunderdome. geezuz h christ was jose conseco a freegin giant !! even from 50 yards away he still looked like herman munster.

(I pissed off some drunken jock behind me with that crack . . . heh heh, those guys are a riot with the team shirt, hat, beer cuzzi, foam finger, yadda yadda.)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by tampaesq
2008-07-29 12:39:49

To underscore Ms. Farmer’s total line of BS…

Last week the big story about Tampa Bay was its craptastic job market for young professionals, and the mayor of Louisville trying to poach competent young professionals by throwing a big party, touting the LOW COST OF LIVING and ready supply of decent-paying jobs that actually require an education.

I drive past GTARd’s headquarters on Kennedy every day on my way to work. And every day, I fight the urge to pull over, take out my tire iron, and bash the ever-loving crap out of their stupid electronic sign. Now is NOT a great time to buy!

 
 
Comment by Ann
2008-07-28 09:24:57

Comment didn’t show up before..

But here is a good article on the joys of homeownership in S Florida…but remember realtor commericals say “increases” in value per every ten years…

http://cbs4.com/consumer/Housing.Crisis.Prices.2.779666.html?ref=patrick.net

And they expect S Florida real estate to continue to decline for the next year…

 
Comment by Nozferatu
2008-07-28 10:04:46

Comment by walt526
2008-07-28 09:09:17

If the kids are as dumb as mom, sending them to “college” is likely not the best use of her bank’s money.

And yeah… pretty much anyone (ie, its not need based) can get a unsubsidized Stafford loan for 6.0% fixed (6.8% for graduate students). And the rate will be dropping to 3.4% over the next few years. The limit is ~$10k per year (~$20k for graduates).

Not to mention a student loan (even if all the interest has been capitalized) looks better on your credit report than a maxed out credit card…

Idiots.

It’s irrelevant how stupid they are…we will end up bailing them out.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-07-28 10:32:03

“Experts say the wave of speculation that peaked at the end of 2005…caused a spurt of construction at prices nobody could pay.”

This quote pretty much sums up the bubble. The highest amount of construction activity is at prices that very few can afford. The builders and developers overpaid for land in a grotesque fashion, and overbuilt to boot. There is really no way out other than BK for most of these guys.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-07-28 11:06:23

“There is really no way out other than BK for most of these guys.”

And that’s good. Maybe they’ll learn a lesson for next time…but probably not.

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-07-28 10:52:11

“She said her sons will still be able to go to college, but it will be paid for by a lot of credit cards instead of investment returns. ‘I feel like I was raked over the coals,’ she said. ‘I feel like I was part of a bank scam and I feel like I was completely snowed.’”

Once the kids graduate college - she will declare bankruptcy. Visa pays for college and she is free and clear.

 
Comment by eckalectic
2008-07-28 10:55:06

good lord, megamike! THAT Proscenium just got approved?

What are they smoking in Sarasota?

“Proscenium” sounds like some sort of parasite you’d find in Central America.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-07-28 13:39:48

Why shouldn’t it get approved?

I am not a communist like most of you who think that government planners are supposed to determine what and what doesn’t get built.
The OWNER should decide whether they want to build it or not. The government only decides if it meets code and zoning and attaches fees.

I say build LOTS MORE. That is how you get affordable housing. Controlling the supply of anything always leads to shortages and high prices.

Keep on building. That’s the answer. IF the owner loses on his buildout, well, gee, too bad.

Comment by holytrainwreck
2008-07-28 16:28:20

Owner Emptor!

 
Comment by Eudemon
2008-07-28 22:44:14

Capital idea! Diogenes, I think this might be the best post I’ve ever read on HBB. I’m surprised that others (including myself) haven’t suggested this earlier.

Perhaps our oversight is due to the forward realization that the Feds won’t ever really let market forces determine the course of things. But if they did…

Incidentally, rich liberal elitists (i.e., Boulder-ites) would never go for your idea. They rather like how hugely priced their properties are and would like nothing more than to keep YOU out. Fore if they couldn’t maintain their exclusivity, how could they ever claim to be environmentally aware?

 
 
 
Comment by bluprint
2008-07-28 11:16:49

but the builder continued to take draws on the mortgage loan she signed for

I don’t get this, was this type of arrangement, where a person signs for a loan but allows a total stranger to draw against it, common before the bubble?

It seems to me that when hiring a builder, a more appropriate model is that either:

1) The builder builds a house (owns everything, loan and all) and sells it to an individual when it’s done for a predetermined contract price. (that’s common around here)

2) The builder works as a contractor in some fashion and gets paid from the owner but the owner controls the cash flow (and would presumably only pay when a roughly equivalent amt of work has been done).

I mean, am I the only one that thinks it’s totally f’d up for “some guy” to control cash flow directly from me (or in this case, a loan in my name) but not be directly on the hook for it? F that.

When/how did construction workers become such reputable characters that you can just turn over your whole financial life to one?

Comment by eastcoaster
2008-07-28 11:39:21

I mean, am I the only one that thinks it’s totally f’d up for “some guy” to control cash flow directly from me (or in this case, a loan in my name) but not be directly on the hook for it?

You are not the only one. I agree. No way would I sign up for this.

Comment by a
2008-07-29 05:00:13

Actually, its should not have been that bad. Construction loans typically only allow draw downs based on home completion -ie. the builder puts in 15% of the work, then the bank releases 15% of the loan.

Of course, that assumes the bank is properly overseeing the loan. In this case, there was no oversight and the banks allowed drawdowns to happen with no work being done.

 
 
 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-07-28 11:54:05

“The Greater Tampa Association of realtors says home sales are up by 76% since January.

The Greater Tampa Association of realtors (GTAR) is playing a game of statistics and twisting the truth to make it look like the housing market is improving. What the realtors have done is removed property that was not selling from MLS (hidden inventory or shadow inventory) to make it look like the inventory is lower due to properties selling which is not the case. What is happening are more and more properties are going into foreclosure and in a desperate attempt to save their credit, many property owners are resorting to renting at a loss. The other problem in the area are prices are still not in-line with local incomes and the Tampa Bay area has suffered large job loses, mainly the higher paying jobs.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-07-28 13:43:40

“The Greater Tampa Association of realtors (GTAR) is playing a game of statistics and twisting the truth to make it look like the housing market is improving. ”

I’m shocked. Completely shocked.

 
 
Comment by michael
2008-07-28 12:32:00

OT - but…what’s this jackass up to now?

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080728/usa_financial_bonds.html

Comment by michael
2008-07-28 13:27:37

he’s like a 4 year old kid…i just want to say…

No, no, no, no no!

Now…Go to your ROOM!!!!

 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-07-28 12:38:31

A typical condo in Concordia can be had for about $100,000. That’s 63 percent less than the $267,900 the Van Dresses paid in April 2007.”

That’s getting pretty close to the 100-120x rent equation, and honestly, sounds almost reasonable to me. Where are all people “on the fence” waiting to buy? Yet, no buyers. I guess that means

1) There aren’t as many buyers as they thought. People either already bought, or are bottom-feeder investors.
2) Condos aren’t as in demand as everybody thought.

Comment by calex
2008-07-28 14:10:08

“That’s getting pretty close to the 100-120x rent equation”

And those that think that will be the next wave of foreclosures. Rent will come down in most areas.

I live in a nice area surrounded by expensive houses and there are 5 places for rent for 3 months now. This is a city that has plenty of jobs too.

 
 
Comment by OhMyHowFun
2008-07-28 13:22:48

The Herald Tribune. “Gloria Chaignet’s attempt at real estate ‘flipping’ three years ago has left her life upside-down today.

And I’d like to take a minute, So just sit right there, I’ll tell you how she became the princess of a town called North-Point.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post