Everything We Knew About Real Estate Is No Longer True
The Sun Sentinel reports from Florida. “For South Florida’s sluggish housing market, one word became shorthand for the magic elixir to get buyers and sellers on the move again: portability. Gov. Charlie Crist predicted it would spark a ’sonic boom’ in home buying. But the state’s home turnover rate of 3 percent is the lowest in years, state economists said in a newly released report.”
“Analysts say any portability-fueled boost in home sales was swamped by stronger forces pulling down the real estate market in Florida and nationwide: crumbling home prices, tightening credit standards and a wave of foreclosures.”
“‘Unfortunately, the credit crunch hit at the same time as portability,’ said John Mike, president of the Realtors Association of the Palm Beaches. ‘If we weren’t experiencing that, portability would be really, really impressing people. It will work for us yet, I’m utterly convinced of that.’”
From WTVJ 6 in Florida. “The foreclosure rates in Broward and Miami-Dade counties increased dramatically between 2006 and 2007. In Miami-Dade County, 9,814 homes were foreclosed in 2006 and 26,931 were foreclosed in 2007. The foreclosure rate in Broward County went from 516 homes in 2006 to 3,616 in 2007.”
“Deerfield Beach resident Dino Lapena said the property next door to his has not been cared for since its foreclosure and he is worried about his own property.”
“‘This is a nice neighborhood, but now there’re so many homes for sale,’ Lapena said. ‘A house was sold, beautiful house, for $180,000, a neighbor. That house was (worth) $300,000. Nobody buys no more.’”
The Herald Tribune from Florida. “My recent column about the war of words between the presidents of the state’s banking and mortgage-broker trade associations brought this reaction from Bradenton appraiser Jeff Deuitch, owner of Manatee Appraisal Service.”
“‘I do have to agree (with the bankers) that a higher proportion of mortgage brokers are unscrupulous than bankers,’ Deuitch wrote in an e-mail.”
“‘In my experience, a phone call from a mortgage broker requesting an appraisal for a residential property would nearly always include language about us guaranteeing that a property would achieve some kind of minimum value prior to granting the appraisal assignment,’ said Deuitch.”
“‘During the 2003-05 period, I was fielding one to two calls per day of this type. Clearly, mortgage brokers would try to influence appraisers. In my experience, this was more than just a widespread practice — it was nearly ubiquitous amongst small mortgage brokers.’”
“‘It is not to say that this did not occur with banks. If you research the incidents that have resulted in Andrew Cuomo’s pressure on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, you will see a good example of a large firm that has been accused of pressuring appraisers to ‘hit’ predetermined values via their large, third-party, vendor-management company.’”
The Jax Daily Record from Florida. “According to figures released June 25 by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban development and the U.S. Census Bureau, 512,000 new single-family homes were sold in May of this year. That number is 40.3 percent below the number of homes sold in May 2007.”
“The data confirmed what has been known by developers who aren’t developing and real estate agents who aren’t listing because nobody’s buying so nobody’s selling.”
“The effects of the real estate slump are also being felt by attorneys who practice in the area of real estate law. ‘Compared to a year ago, my real estate practice is only a third of what it was,’ said Bryan Goode of DiRito Goode Dempsey at Jacksonville Beach.”
“Obviously closings are down but our firm is diversified so we’re focusing on other areas like wills, trusts, probate and commercial litigation. We’re continuing to pursue real estate but we’ve got to watch our overhead,” he added.
Bill Ryan of Ryan and Marks has been practicing since 1972 and said, ‘Every now and then we see a blip and think it’s going to get better but then the blip disappears.’”
“Crabtree & Fallar’s Randy Crabtree has also watched his practice change with the real estate market. ‘Our market is down 75 percent. I went through the high interest rates in the ‘70s and the depreciation in the ‘80s and the lean periods in the ‘90s but I’ve never seen anything like this before. I think the sub-prime loans are the main factor in the current dynamic. It has caused investors to have no faith in the mortgage companies.’”
“Crabtree also has no idea as to when the market will turn around but did predict, ‘It could be an astronomical collapse if something isn’t done to get things going again.’”
“‘But even if you could get land at zero cost, you can’t build right now for a price anyone can afford. And even if interest rates were at 0 percent, nobody would make any money so the system wouldn’t work. It’s like a tornado. Everything we knew about real estate is no longer true,’ Crabtree said.”
The Post & Courier from South Carolina. “Outspoken local real estate observer Brad Runbaken has his worries about the Charleston housing market but also sees some positive signs.”
“‘The Charleston foreclosure market is growing and let’s all hope it does not become as large as certain parts of California and Florida,’ he says in a second quarter report on the local real estate outlook. At the same time, ‘There are very good deals out there if you look,’ Runbaken says.”
“Runbaken says there is a ’shadow inventory in Charleston’ that does not show up in the Multiple Listing Service figures. He’s especially concerned about $500,000 or higher valued homes due to high inventory and jumbo loan rates.”
“‘I feel we are exiting what has been a 20-year cycle of low interest rates and we all know the impact interest rates have on the price and financing of homes,’ he says.”
The Sun News from South Carolina. “The prices of condominiums sold on the Grand Strand continued falling in July as did the amount of condo inventory, according to the monthly Coastal Carolinas Association of Realtors report.”
“The median condo price fell to $149,000 in July. That’s 16 percent less than its peak this year at $177,500 in March and down 20 percent from July 2007.”
“What’s promising for condo sellers is that the number of condos on the market also dropped in July. But just because inventory is going down doesn’t mean the property is selling, said real estate broker Eddie Marshall.”
“Some of his clients, unwilling to budge on their prices, have thrown in the towel for the time being, he said.”
“‘Some obviously sell, and then others, when they’ve been on the market for a while, the sellers just decide to take them off the market,’ Marshall said. ‘When the prices go down, some of the sellers just will not accept that. They won’t accept the reality that they’re going to sell for less.’”
“Sales remained sluggish in July at 263 condos sales and 267 single-family house sales, down 22 percent and 35 percent from July 2007, respectively.”
“‘It’s discouraging on the sales numbers, that they’re not rebounding,’ said Tom Maeser, market analyst for the Coastal Carolinas Association of Realtors. ‘It’s down a little more than last year was down, and last year was a slow market.’”
The Independent Mail from South Carolina. “Twenty years ago, the Anderson County Master in Equity’s Office handled as few as eight foreclosure cases a month. Today it’s not unusual to have 80 to 100 foreclosure sales in a month.”
“Housekeeper Joyce Lusk found herself unemployed after business slowed at Oconee Memorial Hospital. A series of migraines kept the 59-year-old from working, and soon she was five months behind on her mortgage.”
“Lusk said she asked her lender to move payments to the end of her mortgage or drop her monthly bill to $600 until she was earning a steady income. The lender was unwilling to do either, and now she’s facing foreclosure.”
“‘I don’t understand why they don’t want to work with me,’ Lusk said. ‘Why do they want to take the house when the house is going to sit there for God knows how long?’”
“Elaine Worzala, director of Clemson University’s Center for Real Estate Development, was interviewed by National Public Radio at the height of lenders’ aggressiveness. She remembers advising people to rent, but says her efforts couldn’t overcome the hype about the need to own and how you can’t lose in real estate.”
“‘What’s sad is that people were trying to tell the financial community and were trying to tell borrowers, but it was like a feeding frenzy, and they didn’t want to hear it,’ Worzala said.”
The Charlotte Observer from North Carolina. “Statewide, N.C. foreclosure filings were up 19 percent through June, compared with the first six months of last year, according to Observer analysis of state data. These filings mark the start of foreclosures. Filings this year could top 60,000, an increase of more than 10,000 from last year’s historic high.”
“‘Foreclosures have a cascading effect on the community,’ said Mark Pearce, N.C. deputy commissioner of banks. ‘We’re trying to prevent that cycle from feeding on itself.’”
“So far this year, foreclosure counselor Kerri Roseman has worked with 216 people fighting to save their homes. That’s one-third more than she saw all of last year.”
“‘Some of the people don’t have enough money with gas and food prices going up,’ said Roseman, who works for Prosperity Unlimited, a nonprofit serving the Charlotte area. ‘I see people who lost their jobs, people whose interest rates have gone up, some who just had bad budgeting.’”
“The North Carolina coast also is seeing a spike in foreclosure activity. Dare County, stretching along the Outer Banks, has the highest foreclosure filing rate, more than double the Mecklenburg rate. The rate - foreclosure filings per 1,000 people - is 24 in Dare versus 10.5 in Mecklenburg. More than half the county’s houses are owned by non-residents, many as vacation homes or investment properties.”
“Those second-home properties are where Charles Evans, a real estate attorney in Dare County’s Manteo, said he is seeing the foreclosures.”
The Star News from North Carolina. “Lesley Whitman is from Wayne County, but when she accompanied her husband to Wilmington on Thursday, she shopped at the Goodwill store on Kerr Avenue while he attended a meeting at work.”
“They’re feeling the pinch of high gas prices and they’re worried about the economy. They’re not alone. Becky Lytle, a spokeswoman for Goodwill Industries of Eastern North Carolina, said sales this summer were below last year’s, which she blamed on the economy. People who had shopped there as often as several times a day are now coming in less often, although they still come.”
“Local Salvation Army Maj. Butch Mallard said he’s seen an upturn in the number of customers at the two Salvation Army stores in Wilmington and another in Southport, and he’s definite about the reason.”
“‘As the economy worsens, people are looking to save any way they can,’ he said. ‘You’ve got people coming in who never shopped at a thrift store before. … They tell me they’re having rough times and are having to save where they can.’”
“Whitman, the Wayne County teacher, said she and her husband live a comfortable life - they own a vacation trailer in Oriental, a 19-foot boat, a newly installed in-ground pool, another lot in the country. But they’re feeling the pinch of high gas prices and, being parents, they feel vulnerable to any economic weakness.”
“‘We’re living the American dream,’ she said. ‘But it’s hard to have the American dream anymore with the economy being what it is.’”
“If we weren’t experiencing that, portability would be really, really impressing people.”
Yes, and if I had a free home on Palm Beach I’d still not want the insurance or tax burden. If a cow had wings it might fly. If…If…If…
Another point about the relationship between “portability” and the housing bust is that “portability” was a RESPONSE to the housing bust and therefore could not have come at any other time. Admittedly, it was a stupid and useless response, since the first-time buyers are not attracted.
If a cow had wings it might fly. If…If…If…
The Florida portability was based on the theory of if a cow had wings and nothing else.
The main issue and problem is housing prices are not in-line with incomes in Florida even after prices have dropped. Until rental unit costs and home prices come closer together, not much will sell. The other issue is 25% of those who purchased a home last year now owe more than what the property is worth and more than 30% nationwide who purchased a home from 2003-2006 are upside down.
Now is not a good time to buy!
Wonder why those Palm Beach millionaires who really benefit from this tax scheme are not trading their houses right and left?
Dummies! If you raise the tax on first time buyers and out-of-stators you cannot expect to make the housing market more attractive.
“Dummies! If you raise the tax on first time buyers and out-of-stators you cannot expect to make the housing market more attractive.”
I like that better than making it easier for them by giving them tax breaks, which then becomes an effective subsidy for home builders. Besides, out-of-staters are mostly speculators and why should a Floridian care?
You should care because outsiders are your main source of income. Florida produces very little except sunshine.
So they should subsidize housing purchases by outside speculators with tax breaks, because they bring money to the state?
Why not just give them no-doc loans, that way Fannie and Freddie are on the hook, not the Florida taxpayers…
We eat our Jung…
“‘We’re living the American dream,’ she said. ‘But it’s hard to have the American dream anymore with the economy being what it is.’”
“…said she and her husband live a comfortable life…”
So what’s the effing problem? Could it be they have all that stuff and cannot bear to admit that it does not bring them happiness/fulfillment? Are they afraid of staring into the abyss?
In the long run, lady, in the long run…
“Are they afraid of staring into the abyss?”
Sartre, get over here from the Bitsbucket, you’re needed…
Actually, it was Nietzsche. “When you look into the abyss, know that the abyss looks back into you”, or something very close.
Nietzsche was Pietzsche.
Ghost developments in Tampa Bay, but some still drinking the kewl-aid. Boo-YAH, Charley Hannah:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/aug/09/na-two-kinds-of-open-houses/?news-metro
“Progress Will Take Time”
Try 20 years.
Yeah, I read that the other day. Builders are absolutely positive that south Hillsborough County will come back, but that’s not going to happen unless reckless lending and $1.50 gasoline come back. Anyone buying out there is in for a rough time.
On another note, after what I saw in Bradenton, I have been paying more and more attention to the cratering commercial real estate situation as I drive around town. The number of vacancies here has skyrocketed just in the last few months. My wife and I got ice cream from a strip mall place on Sunday and there were two empty neighboring storefronts, with several places clearly competing to be next. Really, how many upscale pet care, hobby, and baby places could this area legitimately support?
South County’s had it for now, just no one told the builders. I don’t know if the poster Dave still lurks or posts here, but he could tell you all about life as a renter in Riverbend(over). He just moved out of there not long ago, after living there for over a year. Break-in city, to hear him tell it. I went driving through there not long ago and I must say, it looked kind of grim to me.
I hear you on the commercial stuff, though. A big Sweetbay plaza is nearing completion and Sweebay had their grand opening. The only tenant I see so far is Sweetbay, the rest empty glass storefronts. Good luck to ‘em. Maybe the nail studio on Apollo Beach Blvd. will re-locate.
Hi Palmetto and other HBBers.
I am now out of Riverbend and getting settled in our new rental in Parrish. I don’t see Riverbend or the many other new subdivisions in Southern Hillsborough recovering within the next 20 years if ever. The whole concept was ridiculous - McMansions out in the sticks. High gas prices are the final nail in the coffin. Riverbend originally was laid out in four sections (250-400k), (400-500k), (550-750k), and (800k+). In Ruskin !!!! There are many homes in foreclosure that won’t sell at any price. It has become a rental community with short term questionable tenants. Crime is hideous now and getting worse as the economy sinks. We lived there for 2 years and were so happy to get out.
See the same in Pinellas county-. More empty store fronts every week. First to go were flooring, granite, cabnet shops. Next thing has been furniture shops. I travel thru the county for work and it is the same from St. Pete up to Tarpon Springs. Thing is they just close down, no going out of business sales or liquidations.
FWIW
Builders are absolutely positive that south Hillsborough County will come back, but that’s not going to happen unless reckless lending and $1.50 gasoline come back.
South Tampa is toast and it will not recover due to high insurance costs, etc. Prices will continue to drop in this area, but people will buy elsewhere to keep their costs down.
I think this whole bubble has masked how bad the economy is going to become: the stupid little pet and candle stores were able to survive when free money was floating all around, all the while retail was being consolidated at the Wal Marts, Targets, and efficient e-tailers. Now that the free money isn’t floating around, just watch how fast and how hard the rug will get pulled out of a lot of useless boutique types of stores.
Are you saying that we should only shop at Walmart et. al. because they are more efficient? I prefer to shop for most things at mom-and-pops myself, even if they are a bit more pricey.
Uh, I didn’t say anything about what I prefer. I’m not saying all mom-and-pop retailers are bad; far from it. However, I believe many are going to have their asses handed to them shortly.
prices up ?
on yahoo financial
Right. Go look at http://www.mris.com - Prince William averge and median for July are down 37 and 36 percent, respectively. Fairfax County median is down 20%, y-o-y. DC is flat.
nasty stuff
I follow the Loudoun county stats in MRIS closely. We’ve just now reached what appears to be a bottom in the rate of decline. Prices are now declining 83k per year (normalized over 4-month period). The number’s been 83k for the past two months. So picture a roller coaster - we’re at the very fastest part of the downslope.
So first we have to get the rate of decline back up to 0, then we’ll see an actual bottom.
FWIW from looking at OFHEO and Case/Shiller data - the same appears to be true in many of the bubbliest areas as well - FL, NV, AZ; the rate of decline has increased a lot lately, but now seems to be at a zenith. CA seems to be behind the curve some - the rate of decline is still increasing.
I should add - that rate of decline is in dollar terms - not in percentage terms. In percentage terms the rate of decline is still increasing (ouch).
“home turnover rate of 3%”
Yes. That is pathetic. It should be at least 30% every year. That way the REIC can continue to the run the country and our fake economy can be sustained indefinitely!
What we ’should’ mean when we say ‘portability’ is the ability of the buyer to bring their mortgage along with them! Assuming you haven’t done any kind of outlandish equity skimming you should be able to just buy your new home at year 10 of your 30 year mortgage and only have 20 years remaining.
There. There’s a program I can get on board with. You should only have to make house payments 30 years TOTAL out our miserable existence. It should at least be the default option.
“Whitman, the Wayne County teacher, said she and her husband live a comfortable life - they own a vacation trailer in Oriental, a 19-foot boat, a newly installed in-ground pool, another lot in the country. But they’re feeling the pinch of high gas prices and, being parents, they feel vulnerable to any economic weakness.”
“‘We’re living the American dream,’ she said. ‘But it’s hard to have the American dream anymore with the economy being what it is.’”
Sounds like you’ve been living High on the Hog as they say down in Wayne county and you’re fat on hushpuppies.
..another old saying is Ooops!…the Fat is in the Fire:)
“‘We’re living the American dream,’ she said. ‘But it’s hard to have the American dream anymore with the economy being what it is.’”
Good topic for discussion here on this board: Just what is the American dream?
This weekend when the wife and I were out we went by some car dealers and couldn’t believe the prices on some of the cars at Audi, MB, BMW, etc. I know that most of the ones here have to be on a lease, but what the hell, since when did spending that much money on something to get one from point A to point B reliably become part of the American dream?
I dunno…I always thought the American Dream had to do with access to education so you could study what you had the aptitude for, then hopefully work in that field, rather than being more or less forced to do whatever your father did, or being apprenticed out to someone at an early age, etc.
So access to education was one part…another was the fact you can more or less marry who you choose, with few or no arranged marriages. Reliable birth control means you can choose whether to have kids, and how many.
There’s the ability to vote, which often feels completely futile, but is nonetheless more than many others throughout the world have.
These are some of the things I always assumed people who immigrated to the USA were seeking, and I hoped that people born here could appreciate the opportunities and maximize their potential.
I guess my old-fashioned notions of the American Dream don’t make great sound bites, or maybe they really were all wrong to begin with. Apparently (according to every one of these articles), the American Dream is all about huge houses, rooms full of expensive furniture (made by slave labor overseas), granite countertops and stainless steel appliances (that are never used, since everyone eats out every meal), big, gas-guzzling leased cars, showy vacations to Hawaii and Disney World, designer labels on clothing, yadda yadda yadda.
I don’t get it. It’s enough to make a person feel really isolated, confused, and even depressed. Is this REALLY the end-all be-all for the average person?
Preach it, smathis! And thank you.
smathis,
Well done. I’m not a deeply religious person ( last time I was in a church I got married ) but the ability to chose where, how and what you worship should certainly be part of that dream.
I’d like to add my own little spin and I know it sounds trivial but when you stop and think about it I hope it leaves an impression on at least a few here?
The choice to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with your weekend! The freedom to *not have YOUR weekend become subject to some rinky-dinky stupid ‘festival’ ( of which they all are the same ) and not have traffic knarled up and your town over run by bored boomers looking to fill their vacuous lives with yet another Art/Wine/Jazz/Blues/Bluegrass FESTIVAL!
No. I don’t want to be part of it. Leave me out. Thank you.
end rant
I hope that people don’t take that as a “personal agenda” and completely un-related to the Housing Bubble. I can’t speak for other states but Oregon has gone completely insane desperately trying to create some sort of “Brigadoon” ambience to every little town with 750K homes!
See! See? We have “cultural events”! You won’t be bored here! We ALWAYS have ’something’ going on! So like the twisted Chevy Chase script from “Funny Farm” we’re all supposed to strap on our ice blades and play “crack-the-whip” in the town square and create this faux environment just so this schlub ( Chevy ) can unload his over-priced POS!
Am I the only guy that’s tired of feeling like you have to be on your very bestest behavior at all times just so local realtors and developers can cash in? Enough already!
interesting comment, dinOR.
and on a related note, I always wondered if the cache’ of living on that windy Lombard Street in San Fran was worth the everloving hassle of trying to GET to/from yer driveway among the 24/7 stream of cars that never seem to stop going down that path . . .
kinda like living in front of a freeway on/off ramp, except in slow motion, at a 45 degree angle.
aqius,
Sadly, yes, I have been part of that endless “parade of d!ckheads”. It was my first visit and I was 20 years old at the time and had seen it in several movies.
For me, locally it’s been about trying to recapture ’some’ of that “pre-bubble innocence” before people had more disposable income than they knew what to do with? So we conjured up all these “events”. It’s all part of that whole “wallet share mentality” so prevelant at stockbroker firms, realty firms and gated communities etc.
“These boomers ALL… have money. They’re ROLLING in it. You just need to get off your dead @ss and make sure you’re getting your share!” ( I’m so sick of it ) We battle hard to get the REIC from being front and center in our every thought, the Fest-mania is a small part of it but a part nonetheless.
In my town, the neighborhoods with “character” in the older but well-maintained parts of town built before the cookie cutter zoning measures were created. Incidentally, those homes are selling to a much more interesting crowd (rich/older singles, gays, community firebrands, urban hipsters) than the McMansiony crowd.
Yes, thank you…freedom to worship - or not- as you choose is very important.
re: JazzArtFreedomW[h]ineFest ‘08…I guess that’s why I enjoy the “torpor” (as a recent Atlantic article termed it) of the suburbs. If I choose, I can drive 20 minutes to downtown and immerse myself in “culture.” OR…I can hang out in my nice big backyard with a cold drink and listen to the cicadas and not say “boo” to anybody (nor have them say “boo” to me).
I like doing the sociable thing on occasion, but I also appreciate the opportunity for some solitude and quiet.
smathis,
I agree and I guess I’ll call my “movement” The Last of the Great Backyard Americans where listening to the ball game on AM radio is still a big deal. Torpor aside, what about those that live in the city?
Don’t they have the right to have (1) weekend between the “5th of May” and Halloween where they don’t have to tussle with add’l traffic from ____Fest? Why have we turned the entire country into a damn festival? Just look at New Orleans? For years they took 2 weeks out of the year and got it out of their system. Can’t we go back to that? Sheesh.
Dunno. I’m really looking forward to the Montgomery County Agricultural Fair this weekend. I want to see the bunnies and the moo cows and the horsies.
No llamas or alpacas this year, but they are looking for someone to organize that for next year.
Not that fond of geese or sheep, but that is just me.
polly,
I’m sure not trying to drive a wooden stake through the heart of a long standing and bona-fide event. Not far from here we have the Molalla Buckeroo ( rodeo ) and it’s been around almost 100 years. No problems there.
As I have said in letters to the city “Just like government spending I’m only seeking to control the “growth” of festivals”. I’ve implored them to show me a weekend that *doesn’t have some sort of damned “event” planned?
Remember a lot of this is done under the guise that “it’s for charity” ( Brought to you ABC Mortgage Lending and your local Realtwhore (TM) So as long as it’s for “non-profits” it’s perfectly o.k to be an intrusion on YOUR weekend! Let’s do the math, after the set-up, tear-down and vendors get paid… how much did we ‘really’ raise here? My guess is, not much.
I did understand. I was trynig to be a little funny with the post. And I think the fair is celebrating its 120th year or something excessively venerable like that.
You comment reminds me of the ubiqitous street fairs during the fair season in NYC. Bunch of stuff for sale - socks, knock off designer sunglasses, really cheap jewelry, three or four actual artisan vendors and a bunch of standardized food wagons. Big yawn. Nothing like the ones that actually had a cultural basis, or were acutally limited to artists, or something like that - though the food wagons were pretty standard at all of them.
I’m not even going to jump in on the “its for charity” meme. I might never stop. But if you are ever interested, charities file public reports (called a 990) with the IRS and they are made public on a website called guidestar. You have to register, but you don’t have to pay to look up a few. The waste in the festivals won’t show up if some organizer is running it and they just promise to give some money to charity when they are done, but if the organization is spending gobs of money to raise just a few dollars for its exempt purpose, you may be able to catch it there. Not that it is easy to find, but it is worth a look. Same thing for the ones that call you up asking for money. Ask what percent of the money will go to the charity and what is retained by the private company making the calls. OK, I jumped in a little. But really, I could go on for hours.
Oh, and you can get the salaries of the executives and a few other highly paid employees and fun stuff like that.
“I’m not a deeply religious person ( last time I was in a church I got married )”
Well, I can relate, I would avoid church, too.
Good point about the festivals, they’re just another way to part a fool and her/his money, and towns LOVE them, as they’re perceived to be good for tourism, but there was one in Ridgway, Colorado, last weekend, and I stopped in a little cafe there, it was empty, everyone was over at the festival, and the owner said the festivals always took business away from her, she hates them, but she finally ran me out because I wouldn’t stop talking in run-on sentences.
I know you’re not talking about my sweet corn festival this weekend. Oh the sweet, sweet corn.
Olathe?
If so, DON’T eat it. They spray it daily the last two weeks so no bugs, the stuff’s very toxic. Sorry.
Booooo for the attempt.
Nope, Sun Prairie, WI. It’s all good.
RE: the American Dream is all about huge houses, rooms full of expensive furniture (made by slave labor overseas), granite countertops and stainless steel appliances (that are never used, since everyone eats out every meal), big, gas-guzzling leased cars, showy vacations to Hawaii and Disney World, designer labels on clothing, yadda yadda yadda.
Damn right it is!
If you don’t think so, just pick up a copy of the Boston Globe.
Their “look at me-I’m rich” sycophantic writer’s will gladly feed your depression.
The original American dream had something to do with taxation with representation and freedom from government control.
Try explaining this to your garden variety sheeple.
I agree that was the older meaning. The present meaning seems to be, everyone dreams of being richer than everyone else. Not very possible for all those dreams to come true. However, we here at HBB are more likely to be on the winning end of it in the near future.
amercian dream = individual liberty
but with individual liberty comes individual responsibility.
Old American Dream = ability to be a bum under the bridge or a film director, individual freedom of choice and opportunity to do it.
New American Dream = ability to THINK you have freedom of choice and opportunity to do it.
The “American Dream” for the middle class was a marketing campaign by the builders and automotive industry launched in the late 1940s with Levittown, the original post-war surburb. It had roots in the older, richer, “street-car” suburbs that began in or around the 1880s/1890s which were marketed to richer people to escape the late 19th century industrial city with its noise, pollution, smells, etc…
The “American Dream” has run it’s course, peaking in 2005-06, and now has begun to decline - starting with the exurbs and cheaply constructed McMansions and SUVs. These things will be poor investments for the future as far as I can see…2020++.
In 2020 / 2030, you will either be in agriculture (owner or sharecropper/worker) or you will live in or near a city or town or major commuter rail line station. Or live in a wealthy enclave (and be wealthy or one of their servants) that can afford expensive (relative to today) personal transportation.
2020 “expensive personal pransportation” = an electric, hybrid or fossil fuel car. “inexpensive personal transportation” = bicycle, walking, scooter, etc…
And why will this change occur? Because we’ve run out of cheap fossil fuel? Please.
ANV, most people follow the Gunny Highway dictum: Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.
Fossil fuels will become scarcer for the USA especially. A 10% drop will create an instant rationing situation which would then force a downsizing of car / SUVs and use and closer in living in smaller spaces.
The dollar “collapse” is the other issue….oil imports will become increasingly expensive in $s with wild u and downs on shorter time horizons as we lurch towards - “improvise, adapt and overcome”.
“For South Florida’s sluggish housing market, one word became shorthand for the magic elixir to get buyers and sellers on the move again: portability. Gov. Charlie Crist predicted it would spark a ’sonic boom’ in home buying. But the state’s home turnover rate of 3 percent is the lowest in years, state economists said in a newly released report.”
Since Florida’s opressive property tax system makes it almost impossible for out of state new comers to buy a house, that’s what you’re stuck with. If you move to Florida today you get hit with a $800/month (!!!) tax bill for some modest 2/2 house with 1200 sqft. Add in insurance @ $300 and a mortgage payment of $1500 for a grand total of $2600 and you’re much better of renting. You pay around $1400/month rent for the same place.
Must be a 2/2 on the beach Mike! On just a percentage to value basis of between 1% on the very low end and 3% on the very high end, Florida’s tax burden is right in the middle of the nation. We’re signficantly lower than what I paid in MI and significantly higher than some southern states.
At the height of the bubble, small (1200 sq. ft.) cracker box 3/2 ’60s ranches on tiny lots were listing at $350K. In PBC, that would be about a $7000 annual tax bill.
They’re priced at about half that, now…but it will take the assessor’s office awhile to cut down their assessments (if they ever do); meanwhile, you can still expect to pay $3-7,000 per year for homeowner’s insurance (depending upon location and other variables).
Most people don’t want to pay $1000 a month for a 1200 sq. ft. 3/2 on a tenth of an acre without even touching the mortgage - even if they could afford to. (with a median annual household income around $45K, most people in SFL can’t afford to).
$1,000 per month would assume an awful high insurance burden. Frankly if you’re paying more than $200 per month on insurance you’re either living in a mansion or you’re paying WAY too much for your insurance.
No, I’m saying about $1000 per month for insurance AND property taxes.
What part of that is insurance VS. property tax? What part of the county do you live in?
I used to live in south PBC, but my figures were hypothetical.
My point was that at the peak, small starter homes were “worth” (har har) $350K. Where I lived, that would equate to about $7000 per year property taxes (about 2%). Now, the asking prices are much lower, but assessments have yet to be adequately adjusted.
It’s impossible to get specific homeowner insurance figures due to opacity in the industry and many variables. However, for something on the southeast coast, especially one of those older starter homes that is not up to current codes, somewhere between $3000 and $7000 annually is not unheard of.
Hence my statement that a person could wind up paying $1000 a month for carrying costs alone on a small, older (40 years old or more), 3/2 house.
Hopefully this will change as the assessments adjust downwards and several hurricane-free years hopefully lower people’s insurance rates. South Florida used to be remarkably affordable for “paradise” - perhaps it eventually will be again.
There are a lot of factors in insurance, however a new roof and some storm shutters will put insurance in the affordable realm if properly documented. Capacity is an issue which is why you need an insurance agent who has access to a number of markets.
As far as taxes go, the tax appraiser was slow to catch the upswing and will be equally slow if not slower to catch the downside.
If your tax increases are not capped by “save our homes” your paying full force. Go on the county tax site and see for yourself. If you baought your house 10 years ago you’re riding the gravy train. A buddy of mine pays $1500/year for a nice 2-story 4/2 house with 2000sqft. His tax increases are capped since 1995 when he bought. If he would sell, the new owner would pay about $14000/year instead of $1500.
I’m not defending the save our homes…whole other can of worms. I bought in Palm Beach County in 2006 for $225,000 and my tax burden is $3,000 per year.
In Miami-Dade they charge 2.3% of asessed value which usually is close too or exceeds the purchase price. So in Miami you’d be looking a over $5000 for your place.
Honestly, I rent a crappy 2/2 house in a crappy neighborhood and my landlord (commercial property not protected by soh) pays a cool $8000/year. I looked it up on the county web site.
You Florida folks really need something like TABOR. Cap gov’t spending increases to inflation and population growth. Whenever I read what you guys pay in taxes I feel light headed.
Forget what we pay, you should see how these counties were spending. I almost sh*t myself when I heard we may lose the county archeologist…not because we might lose him but because we have one on the payroll!
we have a dept of womans affairs !
top that
“top that”
4 county run dog parks.
Bad Andy, what you guys need is a county anarchyologist, I know, cause I am one and I need a job. And I agree on the dog parks, I think trying to park dogs is a stupid idea, we all know animal control is an oxymoron. I won’t even go into the woman’s affairs thing…
(sorry, need coffee)
We have a depatment in Montgomery county that told my landlord last year that “market value” would be to raise my rent by 8% even though a nearly identical apartment complex had just opened up a block away which was desperate for people and offering much lower rates.
Forget what we pay, you should see how these counties were spending.
I recall some time ago they published the names and salaries of all “highly compensated” Larimer county employees (basically anyone who is paid more than 50K). There were only a handful of people who made more than 100K.
The tax and spend crowd here hates TABOR. Yet the schools are open and the kids get decent scores on the standardized tests. The roads are well paved (they recently resurfaced our 9 year old street). When it snows they plow. The city (Loveland) is clean, there are plenty of parks, the rec center is ample and well equipped. The library is well stocked and might be adding a branch soon. The truth is that its far better than were we used to live in SoCal. And we paid more state income tax in SoCal than our combined income/property tax bill is here (and our house here is far bigger and nicer).
Charlie Crist’s prediction is so asinine that I did not look for any other reason to oppose his possible VP candidacy. I’m a McCain supporter and would like to see a young (Crist’s age) running mate who knows something about the economy. Crist does not.
“I’m a McCain supporter and would like to see a young (Crist’s age) running mate who knows something about the economy.”
I’m sorry to hear that. I would be even more sorry to hear that if McCain chose Crist as a running mate. McCain is a status quo politician who is out to please every special interest he possibly can. Obama is no better. PLEASE HAVE NO CHARLIE CRIST ON ANY PRESIDENTIAL TICKET!
McC is the only one in a large panel to answer
? when have we raised cap gains and prospered?
answer 1987 he also knew that marginal rates went from 50 to 28% and mentioned other factors. The get out of jail free on depreciation recovery. I watch lots of talking heads and see no one answer that question.
he knows more than you think. He’s a combat pilot- they only brag about flying
McCain admitted he knew nothing about the economy. His economic positions have changed, oh, 5-6 times since then. He barely even knows world geography. His handlers have to rein him in from answering geopolitical questions on the fly. It’s quite comical actually, to look at his gaffes on YouTube.
good- have your kid apply to the Naval Academy
all you need is:
4.0 w calc and stats
Eagle scout or like
sport
step right up
When McCain went to the Naval Academy it was mostly about connections. He had them in spades. And my high school classmate who went to the Naval Academy was a nice enough guy, but a 4.0? Are you kidding?
It’s easier to get into the Naval Academy than it is to an Ivy League school, but who’s keeping track?
Of course, Naval Academy standards weren’t that high when McCain was admitted, and he still managed to graduate at the very bottom of his class.
But who cares? He wears a flag pin on his lapel…
Oh my word. Tax, are you really that stupid to believe we’re that stupid to think Geritol Johnny entered Annapolis on his merits rather than Rear Admiral John Sidney McCain Sr.’s influence? lmao!!!!
Maybe ya’ll should look into the causes of death and lose bombs on the USS Forrestal. On second thought, you’ll all be reminded on TV very soon.
“… his handlers have to rein him in.”
McCain is, IMO, displaying early signs of senility or Alzheimer’s. If he’s elected, he’ll have to “abdicate” before the end of his first term. I’m not a doctor, but I watched a very close relative descend into the hell of Alzheimer’s.
A big problem is the “upgrade mentality” of the seller..most can’t deal with the fact that the dollars that they do get from selling their current home..isn’t in todays market..going to upgrade them to their dream home(especially with credit conditions as they are)..it may even get them a home “less” than what they have now..
Even for my husband and I..in today’s market our former “home” would not have given us the 20% we would have needed to get into our current house, which is larger..it would have given up enough money in equity today to move into a comparable home, not necessarily a upgrade…
I’d settle for a break even proposition and go back to renting.
Sellers can’t get a downpayment out of the sale to move even into a downsized situation. They can ONLY become renters at this point in today’s financial/mortgage environment. They’d rather die the death of a thousand screams. …
When I first saw the word “portability,” I was thinking that it referred to the houses. Silly me.
I remember visiting central Florida in the 80’s when many of the homes WERE portable.
Heh. I first came here during a school spring break in the early 1990s, looking for a post-graduation job anywhere in the state. I was driving on I-4 from Tampa to Orlando for an interview and almost was late because of several heavy-haulers moving houses on the highway. Talk about a wide load.
Honey, where did our house go? I don’t know, did you pay the note? Nope, must have been repoed.
must mention to Olygal about the PVC forests that have sprung up in FL.
and she says developers are evil? HA!
The original post mentioned “shadow inventory.” I’m seeing quite a bit of it here in Tucson. Here’s what our “shadows” look like:
1. House that were for sale for some stratospheric price, and, oh, darn, that didn’t work out, so now they’re for rent.
2. Houses that were for sale, but now they’re just sitting there empty.
3. Houses that cycle on and off the market. Which means that the “for sale” sign is out front for a while, then it comes down and the place is rented out. Then, after a few months or even a couple of years, the tenants disappear and the “for sale” sign sprouts again.
4. Houses that are being rented “until the market improves.” This is Tucson-ese for “when double-digit rates of appreciation return.”
5. And, my all-time favorite on a street near the Arizona Slim Ranch. The house is listed for sale by a local agency that does a lot of foreclosure business. The “for sale” sign has a “foreclosure” rider, and, hey, guess what? It’s also for rent! So says another sign. But, before you sign that lease, lookie-lookie! The house has not one, but two boarded up windows. And it’s right next to one of the busiest streets in central Tucson.
i drove thru your fine city this weekend, Slim.
From the vantage point of the torn up freeway I couldn’t see where excessive building occured. I saw some tracks to the south that were yardless boxes all painted the same color brown, including the roofs.
saw some other nicer looking pueblo styles right across the road from shanty towns.
No sonic boom?
http://tinyurl.com/2hdhtr
“Whitman, the Wayne County teacher, said she and her husband live a comfortable life - they own a vacation trailer in Oriental, a 19-foot boat, a newly installed in-ground pool, another lot in the country.”
on a teachers salary?
Husband must have a pretty good job. My wife’s got single teacher friends who bought 2 and 3 homes in addition to their primary home during the boom…when you buy on credit you don’t even have to have a husband with a good paying job…until the bill comes due.
teachers make plenty for 250 days a year and 80% pensions
?what’s a pension?
Benefits are nice, but the money’s not. Starting teacher makes $33,000 per year in Palm Beach County. Even considering the hours, it’s not plenty. Other than social work, what industry pays that low for entry level?
I don’t think $33K is a bad starting salary for a teacher.
See other starting salaries from this WSJ article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120707629451581051.html?mod=todays_us_personal_journal
So only artists and deep thinkers make less money. I’m not sold.
Well, as I’ve mentioned here before, teaching (at least in my area) is quite lucrative. My brother started teaching about 14 years ago for what you would consider a crappy starting salary. In addition to summer’s off and a pension, they paid for his master’s degree which, in turn, gave him a huge salary bump. He now makes over $100,000 teaching public high school history.
Sold now?
“He now makes over $100,000 teaching public high school history.”
That’s absurd.
Yet factual. Google Bucks County, PA teaching salaries.
the socialism worker works 50 weeks
but FL is kinda tough on teachers
“FL is kinda tough on teachers”
Especially if there are public school teachers earning 6 figures. You’d have to work 5 lifetimes to make that much in a FL school.
Damn, the precious metals have gotten absolutely crushed. I’m glad I dumped my palladium at $550. It felt so wrong at the time too!
Now runaway inflation turns into deflation.
I like lower prices. Love them, actually. Makes me feel good to work, knowing I am being rewarded for my efforts. But for the asset owning class of retards running this asylum, deflation is their enemy. They only win with leverage, and asset inflation. And they will fight deflation with inflation any chance they get. Who cares if the poor are wiped out with inflation, as long as their asset prices stay high.
Here’s hoping the massive enema for this crowd continues.
so gold may be ok
as you say , big gov will inflate our troubles away
Where is a.b. dada? I bet this is just totally messing with his head!
I bet ALL his clients now want to pay in gold, hoping he hasn’t noticed the drop in value.
lol
I do miss his posts, but not as much as ByeFL’s.
Does this bode ill for the Highgraders Holiday in Ouray, Colorado in a couple of weeks?
“A series of migraines kept the 59 year old from working………”
Yeah, I know, migraines are bad. But give me a break. I think I might have gone to a specialist, before I lost my house over a headache or two.
The punchline? She worked for a hospital.
Seriously…if at 59, you are in danger of losing your house because you missed a few payments (you shouldn’t still have a mortgage at 59), you really shouldn’t be a homeowner. The fiscal responsibilities are too great for someone who is living paycheck to paycheck as they enter their golden years.
Owning a home isn’t a “right” - it’s simply an option that some people prefer to renting…an option that requires a certain amount of liquidity and stability.
Maybe if there weren’t this ridiculous idea that there should be shame attached to renting, more people who clearly should be renters rather than “owners” would be comfortable with letting go of these houses they can’t afford.
Not have a mortgage at 59? If you’re still working at that age it’s probably ok.
However, my somewhat scientific random sample of residents in this mostly retiree community shows over 2/3 of the homes here are mortgaged. We paid cash.
Ow! Ow!! I gotta remember to pat my back with my other hand/arm.
“If you’re still working at that age it’s probably ok.”
The woman in the article lost her job and as a consequence, is losing her home. At 59, good luck finding another decent one, even if she were more educated and skilled than she is (she’s a housekeeper).
Which is my point. At 59, it’s not a good idea to have a mortgage, because a mortgage requires steady employment and the probability that if you lose your job, you will fairly quickly get another one. Once you get close to official retirement age, prospective employers do not embrace the concept of hiring you. Unfair, but true.
I am aware that many 59 year olds (and 69 year olds, and 79 year olds) are holders of 30 year notes. The thought does not thrill me.
…you shouldn’t still have a mortgage at 59…
I disagree with this general comment.
I’m 42 and have never bought. Still hope to. Will not be paid off by 59.
Even my friends who do own already will not have their mortgages paid off by 59.
How do you know it won’t be paid off by 59? You’ve got 17 years from right now until you’re 59.
What, do you think you have to get a 30 year mortgage?
We bought our first place in our 20’s, with a 30 year mortgage. Paid it off in 10 years. And no, neither of us has ever made spectacular wages, but we are frugal.
If you assume you’ll be paying off a house in your 70s, you probably will be. If you instead question conventional “wisdom” (cough, cough) and plan to pay off your house in 5, 10, or 15 years (and set some specific goals to make sure it happens), you probably won’t still be paying on a mortgage while also collecting social security.
I maintain that it’s not a good idea to still be making huge interest payments to a bank after qualifying for AARP membership. It’s not ageist, it’s practical. Life can be shaky and precarious enough in those years without a mortgage dragging you down.
Back in the 80s, a friend of my family moved from her ranch in Yampa Canyon (in what’s now Dinosaur National Monument) to Boulder, Colorado, to be near her only daughter. Her husband had been murdered in Mexico. She had spent her entire life ranching, she was 56, but actually probably older physically from years of hard labor.
She had nothing. She built her own house in 5 years from the proceeds she made as a seamstress, nothing fancy, just mending people’s clothes and such.
Try that now, especially in Boulder. Just a little perspective on how much this train has run off the track.
They must have the income to make the payment till it is paid off. A strong 401K, pension, or skills that command $ in an industry that is friendly to its older/experienced people will be key. Otherwise, it’s sell and downsize (or walk).
Have faith Eastcoaster. You might be in a position to pay cash. Yes, I do believe prices will fall that far.
“Lesley Whitman is from Wayne County, but when she accompanied her husband to Wilmington on Thursday, she shopped at the Goodwill store on Kerr Avenue while he attended a meeting at work.
“‘Instead of going to the mall, we came to Goodwill,’ she said.”
Oh, good heavens, say it’s not so! People shopping at Goodwill?
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
I’ve shopped at Goodwill/Salvation Army/thrift/consignment stores/antique malls since I was a teenager. When I was 17, I found two leather jackets there for $5 each, and never looked back.
I save money, and my purchases actually go to help people by providing training and jobs. Why is that supposed to be shameful?
It’s because you’re not living the “McMansiony dream” of high-end boutique shops and showy vacations to Monaco.
Inventory here is still very high and increasing, albeit very slowly. There is an occasional sale. Every once in a while another new spec home goes back to the bank, but the bank relists it for just a bit less once the foreclosure is complete. There’s still a lot of denial as to where prices need to be, but at least nobody’s starting yet another spec home.
My wife now fully acknowledges that we dodged a big bullet by buying the least expensive home (a foreclosure) that we would be comfortable living in. But I still expect we’ll take some grenade fragments before it’s all over.
Bill, we bought at pre-bubble prices in ‘06 and we’re catching more than fragments. Hope your luck is better than ours.
Andy, I’m not sure what you mean by “pre-bubble” in ‘06. I thought late 2005 to the end of 2006 was pretty much the peak of the bubble.
I bought a distressed property in December of ‘06. $225,000 for my house is what you would have paid in 2002 or so. Foreclosures are selling for prices we haven’t seen since the 1990’s.
Got’cha.
Meaning, “Now I understand.” I realized after hitting the Add Comment button that my comment might be misconstrued.
An edit feature sure would be nice!
Agreed on the edit feature.
We sure thought we’d beat the system. No way prices were going to fall below our purchase price. Live and learn…we’re not in danger of having the lights turned off because we didn’t buy more than we could afford.
“‘This is a nice neighborhood, but now there’re so many homes for sale,’ Lapena said. ‘A house was sold, beautiful house, for $180,000, a neighbor. That house was (worth) $300,000. Nobody buys no more.’”
Back in 2000 when Lucent stock dropped from 60 dollars to 60 cents, people didn’t argue that the stock was still worth $60, they accepted that it was now worth 60 cents. We’ll never reach the bottom of this housing bust until perople like Mr. Lapena understand that the house that once sold for $300,000 can now be worth only $180,000 if it’s worth even that much. The iPhone sold for $600 last year, now you can buy a newer, better version for $200. Does Mr. Lapena tell people that his iPhone is worth $600 because that’s what it was worth last year?
In reality, house prices should not drop because they are something that is consumed, you buy it and then take it off the market to live in it. When people started buying multiple houses with no intention to consume them but to put them back in the market, then houses became a commodity and disconnected with the fundementals of home ownership value. I guess some people want the party to last forever but it never works out that way.
The thing that got me about that quote is that it looks like reporter made him sound dumber. Often reporters use Parentheses () to insert clarifying information into direct quotes. “That house was $300,000.” makes it sound like he’s merely mentioning the former going price. “That house was worth $300,000.” makes it sound like he thinks that the house was somehow worth more than anyone would pay for it. So I’m willing to believe that in this case the idiot was on the other side of the tape recorder.
“‘In my experience, a phone call from a mortgage broker requesting an appraisal for a residential property would nearly always include language about us guaranteeing that a property would achieve some kind of minimum value prior to granting the appraisal assignment,’ said Deuitch.”
It was not just the mortgage brokers, it was a combination of the realtor and mortgage broker based on the documents I have reviewed from the task force. The local jails will soon be full with these types of unprofessionals!
Portability? How is that supposed to help? It only applies to a Florida resident who sells one home and buys another. -1+1=0. The net effect on inventory is zero. The people who thought this would cause a “sonic boom” in the housing market must be on drugs or something.
‘It could be an astronomical collapse if something isn’t done to get things going again.’”
It should read:
It will be an astronomical collapse because it is too late and nothing can be done to get things going again until prices reach the affordability level and job stability takes hold.
“Astronomical collapse” conjures up images of a black hole. And parts of Florida appear to be approaching the event horizon.
“‘Everything we knew about real estate is no longer true,’ Crabtree said.”
Shows you never knew anything about real estate, Randy. Another great Realtor@ quote.
“The prices of condominiums sold on the Grand Strand continued falling in July as did the amount of condo inventory, according to the monthly Coastal Carolinas Association of Realtors report.”
Two weeks ago on the spur of the moment we called and rented a year old condo at North Myrtle Beach. A 14 story tower and we seem to almost have it to our self during the week. More folks showed up for the weekend but it never was full. When I call with just three days notice and asked for a price break she knocked 20% off without a whimper. After seeing how empty the place was I realized I should have asked for a bigger discount.
There was a realtor sitting in the lobby trying to sell some units. At the end of one day I came by as he was packing up. I asked him if he had sold them all and was head to the next project. All I got was a grunt. He was so pathetic I couldn’t enjoy harassing him. (very much)
test
Anyone know about the values of Fishhawk Ranch Development?
I tried to talk a friend out of buying there at the end of 2005. Is there a lot of crime there now?
South Tampa is toast and it will not recover due to high insurance costs, etc. Prices will continue to drop in this area, but people will buy elsewhere to keep their costs down.
Fuzzy Bear:
Not familar with FL. Wondering why ins costs would be higher in South Tampa, verses rest of state?
Tks WoO
I’ve lived in Tampa for 13 years and can put out a partial guess as to the answer to this question.
Consider the geography of the South Tampa area. It’s very flat, very close to sea level, and with the shape of Tampa Bay a hurricane that came in at the right direction would cause a storm surge to go through the mouth of Tampa Bay, flooding the area.
I’ve seen some of the new base housing at MacDill AFB (at the tip of South Tampa), and it’s all on stilts! Car parking underneath the house, and the house floor is like 10 feet above ground level. Now, that’s a good idea for Florida construction.
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