August 21, 2008

It’s Like Watching A Storm Moving Your Way

The Pittsburg Tribune Review reports from Pennsylvania. “Teresa Hunt worries she’ll have to quit school if she doesn’t find ways to supplement her mortgage payments. She wants to offer discounted rent to someone who would watch her children a few days a week. Hunt, of Beechview lost her job in real estate a year ago and is taking night classes at Community College of Allegheny County to earn a paralegal degree. Hunt would convert part of her large downstairs family room into his or her living quarters.”

“‘It’s really just to help out,’ she said. ‘I need to do something to bring income into the house.’”

“A growing number of single parents and families such as Hunt are starting to take in boarders to help pay mortgages, prevent foreclosure and ease living costs, housing and financial experts say.”

“Randi Lowe, client relations manager for the Pittsburgh Community Reinvestment Group, cautions that what has happened with the real estate market — lower property values and a backlog of homes for sale — could continue ‘for another year or two,’ and she predicts, ‘A lot of people are going to get rolled over in the process.’”

The Associated Press on Pennsylvania. “During the housing boom, liar loans were especially popular among investors seeking to flip properties quickly. ‘Everybody drank the Kool-Aid’ said David Zugheri, co-founder of First Houston Mortgage. They knew if they didn’t give the borrower the loan they wanted, the borrower ‘could go down the street and get that loan somewhere else.’”

“While some borrowers were aware of their risky features and used them to gamble on their home’s value or pull out money for vacations, others like Salvatore Fucile insist they were victims of predatory lending.”

“Fucile, who is 82, and his wife, wound up in an option ARM from IndyMac after consolidating two mortgages on their suburban Philadelphia home. Fucile was attracted by the low monthly payments, but says the mortgage broker who signed him up for the loan didn’t tell him the principal balance could increase. It has risen about $24,000 to $276,000.”

“‘He put me in a bad position,’ said Fucile, who fears he will be forced into foreclosure. ‘He misled me.’”

The Pocono Record from Pennsylvania. “Current estimates show Monroe County’s population growth between 2000 and 2007, while slowing slightly, still increased by 19 percent to 164,722 residents. The median cost of a home in Monroe County in 2007 was $204,734. That was an increase of 95 percent since 2002, when the median cost was $105,125.”

“Nationally, median cost of a home in 2007 was $219,000. That’s 43 percent higher than 2002. The mortgage crisis this year hit the housing market hard. Prices in Monroe County fell by 9 percent to $186,541 through July.”

“Connie Foland’s been in the real estate business for 22 years. Foland thinks the growth over the past 20 years is partially a rebounding effect from a slowdown in 1988. ‘Our prices haven’t jumped up to the way New York and New Jersey have come up,’ she said.”

“And Foland said sellers know who their market is. ‘Every time I list a house, the seller would say, ‘Make sure you list the house in New York and New Jersey, because the people here wouldn’t buy our house.’ In 22 years, I’ve only sold one house to a local person. Everyone else is from New York and New Jersey.’”

“Foland warned that the influx has probably saved the local market. ‘Without the people here, we’d be in the crapper. There are not enough local people to buy houses,’ she said.”

The Frederick News Post from Maryland. “A new report shows 114 foreclosures in Frederick County in July, but another factor could double that number. Wayne Six, of Six and Associates, said Thursday that short sales, if accounted for in what he calls ‘desperation sales,’ could mean twice the number of homes sold under duress.”

“Six, an appraiser, said the foreclosure market affects neighborhoods differently. ‘It is the new subdivisions, those built in 2005 or since, that are being hammered,’ Six said.”

“That’s where buyers were lining up to purchase homes at soaring prices, many anticipating ‘flipping’ them in a few years — selling at a substantial profit. Now they find themselves owning homes worth less than what they owe on them.”

“Some neighborhoods are seeing as much as 80 percent of the homes facing foreclosure, Six said. ‘Right now, lenders are conservative. They want more down, higher credit scores. They realize now that they screwed up when the market was rolling. They were offering 100 percent financing, it was a feeding frenzy. If a bank didn’t offer 100 percent financing, another one would,’ Six said.”

“‘We knew it was coming. It was like watching a storm on the Weather Channel moving your way,’ he said.”

The Washington Independent. “At The Barber’s Chair, in the small, quiet community of Accokeek at the far end of Prince George’s County, Md., the talk often turns to the foreclosure crisis. With locals constantly in and out, Leo Harrington, the owner, hears it all.”

“How people who bought homes once valued at $800,000 down the the road at upscale subdivisions like The Preserves or at the one- and two-acre homesites of St. James have friends and relatives living in their basements to help pay the mortgage.”

“‘A lot of people moved out here from the District because they wanted to be in the ‘burbs and raise their kids here,” said Harrington. ‘You find you can get a bigger house that’s in pretty close, and a yard. But there were all these predatory loans. That’s all it was. They didn’t realize how the loans worked because when folks are lying to you, you don’t know any better. Then, when they find out they are in trouble, they start to panic, and they end up losing their homes.’”

The Loudon Times from Virginia. “Loudoun in July saw a 54 percent increase in foreclosure filings from the same month in 2007, according to RealtyTrac. The county had the second highest rate of foreclosure filings in Virginia last month.”

“In July, according to a report by the Virginia Association of Realtors, the number of homes sold in Loudoun rose 7 percent during the second quarter of 2008 from the same period last year. The average sale price, however, was down 20 percent.”

“‘The sheer number of foreclosures continues to put downward pressure on prices,’ authors of the study wrote, ‘but they also bring new home buyers into the market.’”

The Times Dispatch from Virginia. “About 630 people, mostly from the Richmond area, are transferring with Wachovia Securities to St. Louis. Hundreds of extra houses have been put up for sale in an already slow real estate market, adding to inventory levels and pushing prices down.”

“‘We’re spoiled a little bit, because we haven’t had many corporations move out,’ said Bill White, ormer president of the Richmond Association of Realtors.”

“Houses for sale by Wachovia employees range from the $200,000s to more than $1 million, agents said. The company is aggressive about pricing and moving houses, sending relocation specialists to meet with homeowners and requiring price reductions periodically.”

“If a house doesn’t sell within 120 days, the company will buy it back at a predetermined price and try to move it as fast as possible.”

“One house in Wachovia’s corporate inventory, at 6104 Warbler Way in Wyndham, was listed in mid-March for $725,000. ‘I thought it was a competitive price when we put it on the market,’ said Will Hamnett, an agent who listed the property.”

“The buyout — what the owner received — was $674,500. The corporate-owned house is on the market now for $595,000.”

“‘It’s an unbiased eye to the market — exactly what the market is telling us,’ said Adrienne Chappell, (who) is the agent on four corporate-owned properties, primarily in the West End. ‘You go by facts and figures, pure data on what a house would sell for.’”

The Chesterfield Observer from Virginia. “Local real estate guru Cecil Sears, was part of a panel discussion put on by the Home Building Association of Richmond last Wednesday. Compared to the other panel members, he was uplifting, though he chided builders for creating part of their problem.”

“Pointing to the hefty prices for new homes, he said, ‘The builders have left the buyers.’”

“Several on the panel referred to the national media, laying some of the blame at the feet of the Richmond Times-Dispatch, other daily newspapers and television news. The media, they indicated, reported the worst declines in Nevada, California and Florida, leaving the impression that Richmond also suffered from much lower sale prices and high foreclosure rates.”

“‘All real estate is local with national influences,’ offered Bill White, owner of Joyner Fine Properties. ‘Richmond didn’t have the run-up [in sales prices as other markets did] - particularly second home markets.’”

“But the rebound here and nationwide is likely to be held back by tightening regulatory scrutiny. ‘They want us to provide more equity in our loans [to builders] and properly assess our risk rating of our loan portfolios,’ Bonnie Agee, who handles single-family home construction loans for Fulton Bank, told the group. ‘Regulators are strictly adhering to regulation guidelines.’”

“A year ago, homebuyers with a credit score of 740 could get a 100 percent loan, but that’s not likely today, according to Steve Mills with Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. ‘We all have to pay for Nevada, California and Florida.’”

“The ability to get a mortgage loan will be influenced by where you live. There have been fewer foreclosures in Chesterfield County compared to Richmond and Henrico County, so that helps. Northern Virginia and Virginia Beach are problem areas, and Fredericksburg is rated as ‘declining and depressed.’”

“‘The underwriters of loans are making few exceptions,’ said Mills.”

The Journal Now from North Carolina. “The Triad has been spared the worst of the national housing crisis. But there’s little doubt these days that a credit crunch has taken up residence in the region and that financial institutions, real-estate developers and consumers are increasingly feeling the pinch.’

“The most visible sign can be found in most communities — new residential neighborhoods stuck in neutral or worse for months, with empty lots outnumbering newly built homes.”

“Most banks serving the Triad raised their provision for loan losses during the second quarter, reflecting that late payments and delinquencies are chipping away at their profits. At some banks, the higher provision contributed to a quarterly loss.”

“‘There are challenges that our company and our industry are facing which are new to us all,’ said Swope Montgomery Jr., CEO of BNC Bancorp, the holding company for Bank of North Carolina.”

“‘My fear is that the entire economy is broken, particularly at the national level, but it’s affecting us in the Carolinas, too,’ said Tony Plath, a finance professor at UNC Charlotte. ‘We’re seeing a more significant impact on commercial-loan quality and local real-estate values than I’d originally hoped we’d see.’”

“Real-estate developers are having trouble selling homes they’ve already built, and some have fallen significantly behind on loan payments.”

“Pierce Homes of Carolina Inc. is the biggest example to date. The company announced earlier this month that it was shutting down ‘as a direct result of the ongoing crisis in the housing and financial industries.’ The company had been a major land developer and home builder in the Triad.”

“Among those affected by Pierce’s decision is BNC Bancorp. The bank said in its second-quarter earnings report that it had to place ‘one large residential construction and development relationship of $4.5 million’ as a nonperforming asset.”

“‘They took out a considerable amount of loans, not just with us, to buy a lot of land in recent years at what they thought was a good price. They put in sewer and utilities and prepared the lots to develop for themselves or sell to other developers,’ Montgomery said. ‘When the slowdown hit, they had little maneuvering room left.’”

“Bank of the Carolinas said that its nonperforming assets reached $14.4 million on June 30 — representing about 3.6 percent of its outstanding loans, or what the bank called ‘a historically high level.’”

“A decision by Southern Community to raise its provision for loan losses to $3.5 million from $600,000 represented 7 cents of the 8-cent decline in diluted earnings to 3 cents. Its nonperforming assets were at $14.2 million, compared with $2.2 million a year ago.”

“‘In the majority of these cases, these real-estate loans were good loans when they were written,’ said Scott Bauer, CEO of Southern Community. ‘They became negative loans because good home builders are having a rough time in the economic slowdown.’”

“‘There’s no question that we had too much residential expansion from 2002 to 2006, with mortgages being given to homeowners who didn’t have the financial resources to maintain the loan when their adjustable-rate mortgage rose,’ said Michael Clapp, a local commercial real-estate analyst. ‘The local housing market is paying the price for that lending binge that’s likely to carry into 2010, and likely lead to more home builders going out of business.’”

“Plath, the UNC Charlotte finance professor, cautioned that the local banking market is likely to get worse before it gets better. ‘I hope it’s idiosyncratic (one or two loans) rather than systemic — a slowing economy that diminishes overall credit quality,’ Plath said. ‘It is a lot easier to fix a few problem loans than it is to fix the entire economy.’”




RSS feed | Trackback URI

98 Comments »

Comment by mgnyc99
2008-08-21 07:16:06

“A growing number of single parents and families such as Hunt are starting to take in boarders to help pay mortgages, prevent foreclosure and ease living costs, housing and financial experts say.”

another prediction made here has come true

sure just let some transient live in your home and “watch” your kids

and then people wonder why terrible things happen

rent an apt and stay in school and stop having kids lady

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 07:48:07

But but but then they would be missing out on the The Joys of Home Pawn-ership.

BWAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Comment by Knife Magnet
2008-08-21 12:34:39

I noticed that most of the 2-story+ new houses and condozes we looked at (not that we’re buying them, mind you, just looking/dreaming; can’t afford them anyway) usually has a bedroom in the 1st floor, usually right by the entrance, and a bathroom next to it.

I always thought to myself that people would buy these properties and probably rent these bedrooms out. Reading this thread really just confirms that theory.

So…builders are building these new “homes” and “townhomes” expecting buyers to rent out at least a room? Now that I think about it, some of the properties listed in Zip has phrases like “4th bedroom ideal for rental” or the like.

 
 
Comment by hd74man
2008-08-21 08:03:01

RE: another prediction made here has come true

I was thinking exactly the same thing, mgnyc99

I think the evolution of this “McMansion boarding house” rental trend was called on this blog at least a couple of years ago.

It’s the perfect scenario for renters.

Stable, single-family residential subdivision living, with instant mobility for a quarter the cost of ownership.

Given the right situation one might even be able to score some landlord nooky on the side

And you’re not even responsible for mowing the lawn!

Comment by santacruzsux
2008-08-21 08:56:50

Pittsburgh, along with many other cities, has undergone this in the past with big old houses being subdivided into low income housing. Some amazing houses are now in what can be only called the most dangerous areas of the city. Check out Homewood if you dare.

I certainly wouldn’t consider the Beechview section of Pittsburgh McMansion land though. Not by a freaking longshot!!How’d ya like to drive or walk up this road everyday?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue

There are so many houses up for sale around here, but most folks aren’t budging on price too much. I really don’t know why when a 20% haircut on a $150,000 really isn’t that much in the long term scheme of prices around here.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 09:55:46

That’s got to be a lot of fun to navigate on ice. It’s a wonder that house at the bottom hasn’t been reduced to rubble by out of control vehicles in mid winter.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Burbed
2008-08-21 12:12:08

“Pittsburgh, along with many other cities, has undergone this in the past with big old houses being subdivided into low income housing. Some amazing houses are now in what can be only called the most dangerous areas of the city. Check out Homewood if you dare”

Same thing in DC. Big brownstones that couldnt support income during the white flight period bexame multifamily tenements. Ironically, some 50 years later the city is coming back and many of these joints are rehabbed selling for a million bucks (yes even in this market).

So if history is any guide, take heart McMansion owners - only 50 years til your property comes roaring back!!!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by motorcityjim
2008-08-21 12:29:32

Plenty of big old houses, mansions in their day, are occupied by multiple families here in Detroit. Problem is, they are squatters and pay no rent to anybody and trash the house and the neighborhood. This is the future of McMansion subdivisions everywhere, even in snooty “It’s different here” places.

 
 
 
 
Comment by az_lender
2008-08-21 08:04:28

Performing well in school may become a more serious pursuit when going to school is correctly regarded as a luxury.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-08-21 08:15:13

Sadly, you are right - many tragic stories will emerge from otherwise futile efforts to cling to mere buildings.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 08:20:24

It’s land, dude, land!

That mythical beast that is the solution to all of life’s problems. Once you have some, it’s all rainbows and dancing white ponies, and those that don’t have any are just rubes and retards and forever will they genuflect in front of the happy few.

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 08:39:26

Faster Pussycat,

Ahhh… the “Landed Gentry”.

Here’s where I have issues with SFH & 30 Year Mortgages? My uncle ( worked for the Chicago Northwestern RR ) and owned 160 acres in West Chicago. The home was on the Historic Register and was part of the Underground Railroad )

This was something worth going into 30 years of debt for. But the same level of indebtedness for freaking Townhouses and Condoze (TM)!? You’ve GOT to be kidding me! Yet it’s that ‘image’ of being a part of the LG that realtwhores continually exploit.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by milkcrate
2008-08-21 10:24:10

DinOR
That’s neat. Some of my peeps in Pennsylvania helped with the Underground Railroad as well, though land has long passed on to others.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 11:03:40

milkcrate,

As has this property. But what a neat-o thing for young kids growing up! The barn was made with wooden “nails” and held together remarkably well given it’s age. My uncle farmed most of it and I think it was one of those things where he “loved the way he hated it, and hated the way he loved it” ( as is our Bulgarian Tradition ) You can make me do it ( but can’t make me like it )

I’ll have to Zillow it for a goof but again my broader point was this was a true piece of history, with a real legacy. Everything done out of necessity ( not the brain-fart of some money-horny developer/infestor ) Spending summers there is still a part of my life, unlike a lot of things in between.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-08-21 09:39:28

Well, Fasty, I can see you’re in a mood today. Goody! I can’t wait to watch it happen. :)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-08-21 09:46:09

“Rubes and Retards” sounds like a good name for a rock album.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2008-08-21 09:53:17

National Association of Rubes and REtards?

 
 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-08-21 09:49:19

Land and homeownership has always and always will be the best path to wealth. It has just been completly corrupted by a foolish monetary policy and unbelieveable greed and corruption. Once all of the FB’s captiulate and the average home price drops to affordable levels, it will once again be a good vehicle for wealth. Renting is making someone else rich, just like working for the man!!!!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2008-08-21 09:54:46

“Land and homeownership has always and always will be the best path to wealth.”

Really? Would you care to provide some evidence of this?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 09:55:34

Yes, renting is making someone rich. Uh huh, sure.

What’s going on around us doesn’t seems to have registered inside your tiny little cranium.

Think you’re not renting when you own a place? Try not paying the property tax for a year.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 10:00:21

“Think you’re not renting when you own a place? Try not paying the property tax for a year.”

Part of the reason for the swelling mls inventory around my neck of the woods is the ever increasing property tax which is squeezing out long time owners on fixed incomes. We’re on a 4 year schedule, and many assessments tripled this past year. A crime, indeed.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 10:13:46

I’d say, try not paying your property tax for 4 or 5 years and you’ll find out who REALLY owns it!

I fear though that even with a stout price correction RE will never be the same for our generation and perhaps generations to come. Banks are figuring out they’ve been had. ( Boy have they been had ) and the only way going forward to get money to do a flip will be hard money and I do mean HARD!

Just like the War On Drugs the lenders are trying to retreat with dignity. The only reason they’re even doing any new loans is to hopefully prop up the value of their existing collateral in a damage control effort.

Owning RE may have been a path to wealth at one time but again I’m afraid that time has passed.

 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-08-21 10:24:13

Yea paying the property tax…my own property tax unlike a renter who is paying the landlords property tax…Just like when you a buy a product your paying the corporations corporate tax. Try writing off your rent on your 1040. BABABBWWWAHAAAA

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 11:09:52

baabaabooie,

But I CAN and I DID. It’s called a Standardized Deduction ( Married Filing Joint ) and yes it just so happens it’s on Form 1040. Last time I was a gleeful renter the SD covered every dime I paid in rent and then some.

To be truthful even when I rented my residence I owned other properties and a few outright but you’ve never hung around any farmers have you? Throughout the midwest there are farms that have been in the family for generations and what do farmers talk about when they pass the jug around on the porch? TAXES!

Besides I’m self employed so I have Schedule C to boot. I’d never buy a property solely for the write-off. That just doesn’t make sense.

 
Comment by serling
2008-08-21 11:30:25

While I cannot write off my rent on my 1040, my state allows a rental deduction on the state income tax form.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-08-21 12:22:22

I see we’re not going to get an answer from the troll.

 
Comment by serling
2008-08-21 13:00:51

Maybe I should buy this house listed for sale for $350K. It sold last year for $362K. The buyer got a mortgage on it for $342K. The taxes are about $3,600/year.

It’s also listed for rent for $2,100/month, but then that option might make the ‘owner’ rich.

Someone, who paid cash for their last home purchase, told me you never own your own home. “Just stop paying your taxes and you’ll see who owns the house. At best, you have a life interest in the house.”

 
 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-08-21 09:04:19

Years ago, I was one of those boarders taken in by a struggling single mom. And, trust me, “struggling” was an understatement. What I didn’t seen when I moved in soon became apparent. This gal was in the beginning stages of a nervous breakdown.

A few weeks after I moved in, she started accusing me of all sorts of bizarre things and she asked me to move out. So, I did. I was briefly homeless after that, but with the help of some church people, I found another room to rent. This time, the landlady was rational.

Oh, I should mention that a few weeks after the crazy lady booted me out, she booted her 12-year-old son out. The son was a very nice kid, and IMHO, the most rational one in his family. He went to live with his father, and, AFAIK, Dad raised him to adulthood.

Comment by turnoutthelights
2008-08-21 09:22:30

In my neck of the woods, the near same scene is currently playing out. Couple buys land, builds house and is then overwhelmed with the debt load. After trying to sell for a year (2006), mom goes off deep end and kicks out the hubby (I have talked with him - he actually left on his own power when it became clear that she was truly wacked). Next goes her 18 year old son, and then she ends up in a ‘care facility’. Currently the place is ‘For Sale by Owner’ which means in our area it has reached home-for-sale hell.

 
Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-08-21 09:36:51

I was also the victim of a crazy landlady one time. She rented the house to my wife and me because “God told her to do it.” Then, three months later, she kicked us out because, you guessed it, “God told her to do it!”

Comment by Crusader
2008-08-21 12:22:35

Really, there should be a way to conduct some kind of a background check on a homeowner. This shouldn’t be a master-slave relationship, but it is.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Homoaner
2008-08-21 09:54:36

Local churches have had Share-A-Home programs here for quite a few years. They match responsible people looking for free or cheap housing with senior citizens or disabled folks who need help around the house and yard. This works when both parties are carefully screened. Problem is, you can’t always detect crazy/sociopathic behavior.

I know a guy who did this for years. It was cheap housing while he paid his child support and saved a down payment for a home of his own. Problem was, the old lady he lived with was nuts. He finally got fed up with the horrible bushwa she was telling about him to other people. He moved out, the lady refused another share-a-home placement, and instead took in a runaway teenager. Who brought home other street people. Who proceeded to steal just about anything hockable from her home. They also cleaned out the lady’s checking account and ran up bills in her name at the local drugstore and liquor store. The funny thing about it was the lady loved these criminals and refused to evict them. I guess she’d finally found her own kind.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-08-21 07:17:17

The Triple AAA of the Bush Leagues…

“A growing number of single parents and families such as Hunt are starting to take in boarders to help pay mortgages, prevent foreclosure and ease living costs, housing and financial experts say.”

Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-08-21 10:12:42

AKA, “Housing Demand Destruction.”

Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-08-21 11:51:43

HDD — nothing a new pill from the pharm. companies can’t cure!

 
 
Comment by climber
2008-08-21 10:20:23

Funny, my grandmother did the same thing in the 1960’s. One of the guys that roomed with her was like an uncle to us. I actually liked him more than my real uncle who lived nearby.

 
 
Comment by DC_Too
2008-08-21 07:27:44

You know, the W. Post had an article yesterday about Nebraska and “concerns that a property bubble is forming.” Seems acreage has gone up to a record $4,600 per acre and some people are worried. Well, we can put a value on an acre of prime, midwestern farmland by multiplying crop yield by price per bushel. If corn/wheat/soybeans stay anywhere near current prices, $4,600 an acre farms are economically viable as income producers. If grains fall, that’s another story, of course.

Now look east to Maryland and Virginia. Sellers are still looking for as much as $30,000 per acre and everyone (including the W. Post) thinks this is normal? There are virtually no tracts of farmland around here that are large enough to achieve a necessary economy of scale. This is all about wild speculation, bound to get very ugly if you ask me.

Comment by az_lender
2008-08-21 08:07:02

Thanks for that benchmark, DC_Too ($4K/acre OK for midwest farms at current grain prices). For some other benchmarks and hints on how to recognize the bottom of the housing market, see David Rosenberg’s recent piece, reprinted in John Mauldin’s Outside the Box newsletter of Monday August 18th.

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 08:16:23

I seem to recall not all that long ago it was around $1,500 per acre in the MW?

Comment by Paul in Florida
2008-08-21 10:10:18

Current prices for prime farmland in the top areas - e.g., Illinois and Iowa - are around $8000/acre. $4K/acre these days is well below the current market price for decent farmland anywhere in the heart of the Midwest.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 08:11:30

Funny you’d bring that up. Just yesterday there was an article about how well the Amish are doing. ( I’ve always kind of secretly admired them ) With 4 or 5 children each, continually dividing the farm has it’s limits. Now they are moving on and seeking cheaper acreage elsewhere in WI, MN and beyond.

They’re up against the very math you describe and find themselves spreading out to find ever cheaper “soil”. Maybe there’s hope for the Rust Belt yet?

Comment by Carlos Cisco
2008-08-21 09:09:13

Land is not cheap here in iron oxide belt Ohio; decent agricultural land is already owned by Amish and other well off farmers. Marginal land is always available, but, it is still going for more than even the Amish can get out of it. They are leaving this area , too. Article some time back about their going to Mexico.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 08:29:05

Here in western WA, farmland is not priced for farming, but for mcmansions. Prices for raw land in general are anywhere from $40,000 per acre, to several million dollars depending on the location. It’s a bubble of epic proportions. What’s funny, almost nothing is selling anymore.

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 08:45:03

BanteringBear,

Well in OR it’s tree farms that were leased out for the whopping sum of $130 an acre that suddenly became a windfall! How’d ‘that’ happen?

 
Comment by Groundhogday
2008-08-21 10:20:33

Same thing in Eastern WA, where we are surrounded by wheat fields. There is an incredible amount of land on the market, raw land and developed lots, but like the west side almost NOTHING is selling. Some quarter acre lots in town are now priced as high as $150k (for perspective, as of last year the most expensive town lot ever sold for $80k), but even the few priced at $50k sit with no offers.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-08-21 11:40:28

‘Here in western WA, farmland is not priced for farming, but for mcmansions.’

S’true. Sigh. And what little good soil there is, here in Thurston co anyway, where we don’t have much good soil to begin with, and what soil there is that can grow stuff well is frequently alluvial, which means ‘floodplain’ (you know, where there’s a whole bunch of water on top of it every now and then), what little bit of precious good farm soil there IS, is also most likely to be covered up with jammed in craptastic subdivisions.
But! It is ALSO true that ‘almost nothing is selling anymore’. And that cheers me right the fook up. Maybe we’ll have some farms, forests, and wetlands left here after all.

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 12:23:30

Olygal,

Additionally there was a quick spot on NWCN just this morning on what a mess the “grow operations” create when they’re found. Pesticides, fertilizers all kinds of chemicals and diesel fuel from abandoned generators etc.

One of these days we’re going to get wind of a modern-day Johnny Appleseed growing something edible then I’m going to keel over!

But hey, it’s all good up here, right?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by hd74man
2008-08-21 12:08:14

RE: Prices for raw land in general are anywhere from $40,000 per acre, to several million dollars depending on the location.

So what are the property tax assessments?

Are the owner’s paying taxes on this $40k per acre “several million dollar” valuation?

I’ll bet not.

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 12:24:31

Good point.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 18:18:23

Sorry, missed your post hd. The tax “assessments” on raw land are very low as long as it’s not developed. When it’s listed as “open space” or something along those lines, the taxes on 10 acres can be as little as a few hundred per year. So yeah, these land barons are NOT paying a lot in taxes.

BTW, hd74 as in “shovelhead”?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-08-21 07:30:16

Buried by Six, or how the housing bubble mortgages turned into corpus derelicti…

=========================================

“Some neighborhoods are seeing as much as 80 percent of the homes facing foreclosure, Six said. ‘Right now, lenders are conservative. They want more down, higher credit scores. They realize now that they screwed up when the market was rolling. They were offering 100 percent financing, it was a feeding frenzy. If a bank didn’t offer 100 percent financing, another one would,’ Six said.”

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 07:51:42

Yeah, and if a given bank didn’t go t*ts up, another one would. ;-)

Comment by DinOR
2008-08-21 08:04:00

Faster Pussycat,

I see like myself you’ve had that brand of rationalizing up to your eyeballs. “If these kids didn’t buy drugs from ‘me’ they’d just get them from someone ELSE!”

Really let’s a fellow of the hook doesn’t it? Let’s apply the logic to other “professions”.

“I knew the surgical procedure was totally unnecessary and may even present serious health consequences but I figured…”

“Sure, we knew the brakes were shot ( but she’s quite elderly and every day for her is a blessing anyway )”

Now true, the doctor and mechanic may or may not be found to be at fault but if they DO… they’ll have issues. I’m thinking by late ‘04 so many people were writing cr@p loans it became a matter of having “safety in numbers”.

 
 
Comment by FP
2008-08-21 08:48:52

Ya, It’s Bruno Gambino at the nearest speakeasy around the corner. Got to be careful though, they charge low interest rates for the first hour but after that it’s a doosy. And make sure you pay, you won’t be able to “walk away” since it may cost your legs.

 
 
Comment by cynicalgirl
2008-08-21 07:37:05

I’m cracking up over the way the Richmond people are pointing fingers at everyone else but themselves!

My parents retired there and my mom died 3 years ago. When we sold her house, the agent told me the buyer was an “investor.” When I saw the documents after the closing, my first question was “I thought the buyer was an investor. Why did she have a mortgage?”

Stupid me.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 07:45:30

“Fucile, who is 82, and his wife, wound up in an option ARM from IndyMac after consolidating two mortgages on their suburban Philadelphia home. Fucile was attracted by the low monthly payments, but says the mortgage broker who signed him up for the loan didn’t tell him the principal balance could increase. It has risen about $24,000 to $276,000.”

There’s a special place in hell for the mortgage broker that did this to an 82 year old man. Sickening.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 09:12:44

They consolidated two mortgages at age 82.

Strangely, it reminds me of the Mencken quote:

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2008-08-21 11:37:08

BanteringBear.
You nailed it.
Otherworldy justice: Maybe the broker will light a fat stoagie too close to a propane tank. Oh, no!, there is a hissing sound close by, then… a sizzling, explosive roar.
A little hell on earth before eternity would be a good fit.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-08-21 13:05:17

My reaction to this story was a little different.

An 82-year-old was in his _youth_ during the great depression. WTF is he thinking taking out a $274K mortgage at his age? He should know better.

He’s probably held a number of loans over the course of his life as well–and thus should know how to compute simple interest and realize that he was not even paying all of the interest with the remarkably low payment.

It shouldn’t have passed the sniff test.

 
Comment by stewie
2008-08-21 14:03:19

Fucile: I don’t know, a quarter million dollars is a lot of money.

The Borg: Just sign the papers sir, you can always refinance later. Resistance is Fucile.

 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-08-21 08:03:36

Eighty two year olds consolidating TWO mortgages?

All is lost…………….

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 08:17:01

Actually, if you can make the monthly payments, you might as well stick it to The Man when you kick the bucket.

I wouldn’t advise it but it’s not a completely unreasonable strategy.

Comment by denquiry
2008-08-21 12:38:50

I know lot’s of people that play the man’s game for 18 years or until their kids get out of the house. They buy a nice house, have a nice car, show their kiddies lot’s of niceties and make their monthly payments. then when the kids are gone they figure they can do less with less gorgeous material things and then they go BK and start over. YEA, stick it to the man, when you get old max out the credit cards and enjoy one last fling at the man’s expense. OH YEAH!!!!

 
 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-08-21 08:19:28

Question for you North Carolinians. Me and my Wife are sort of considering Raleigh Durahm because her Grandmother and Mom live there, so we’d like to move closer. I’m originally from TN ( live in CA) and my home state got a pretty good amount of out of state people from Florida and the East Coast moving in. That flow has slowed down a bit, which I hope will lower prices a bit. How’s things going in NC? Slowing down a bit? The prices there were getting a bit too high for my tastes at the peak of the boom. What’s the situation if you don’t mind sharing?

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-08-21 09:13:12

Northern Durham and Garner (just south of Raleigh) are still very reasonably priced. You can get an older but decent 3/2 home on 1/2 acre for $150-$200K. If you need to move into the trendy new subdivisions in North Raleigh, South Point or Chapel Hill be prepared to shell out big bucks.

Comment by Xiaoding
2008-08-21 17:33:35

Rent for a couple of years, otherwise you will get reamed. De-nile runs right thru the center of Raleigh.

More than a few foreclosure towns in the making round here.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-08-21 09:13:36

It seems to me that nearly every state boasts of an influx of people relocating from other states because “everyone wants to live here”. But this can’t really be the case, as one state needs to lose population in order for another to gain. Methinks that a lot of the data is based on speculative home purchases which people will never even live in.

Comment by exeter
2008-08-21 09:28:15

Exactly Bantering. “Everyone wants to live here and all those ‘everyones’ are millionares.”

It’s old, it’s false it’s stupid. And in this case, I suppose everyone wants to move to PennsylTucky? Right.

Comment by denquiry
2008-08-21 12:41:21

Don’t ya know….Everybody lives in “God’s country.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-08-21 09:52:56

And speculative city, county, and state governments who are already spending the money that will surely arrive shortly along with the influx.

 
 
Comment by Lane from s.c.
2008-08-21 10:19:47

Jetson, I`m 42 and have lived in or near charlotte all my life. I think its over rated. However I do like the beach and the mountains, and we visit both on a regular basis. Prices have not moved too much as they did not move up that much the last 5-7 years. I don`t believe we had alot of speculation in the state with the exception of the coast and mts., those prices are ajusting now. The builders are dying on the vine I know that for a fact. Charlotte is a very snooty town for reason…don`t know why though. I guess to answer your question its not a bad place to live….just not great.

Regards,
Lane

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-08-21 08:54:35

“And Foland said sellers know who their market is. ‘Every time I list a house, the seller would say, ‘Make sure you list the house in New York and New Jersey, because the people here wouldn’t buy our house.’ In 22 years, I’ve only sold one house to a local person. Everyone else is from New York and New Jersey.’”

“Foland warned that the influx has probably saved the local market. ‘Without the people here, we’d be in the crapper. There are not enough local people to buy houses,’ she said.”

The poconos is a two hour commute from hell to NYC (even if part of it is by bus or train). It never made sense even at $1.50 gallon gas.

In the meantime, all these NY and NJ people have destroyed the poconos. Higher crime, traffic, developments everywhere, locals priced out of where they grew up, higher taxes, etc. You ARE in the crapper…

Comment by exeter
2008-08-21 09:32:58

“In the meantime, all these NY and NJ people have destroyed the poconos.”

It seems this event was precisely the point of the housing mania. The swath of destruction resulting from the bubble and its believers is unimaginable.

 
Comment by turnoutthelights
2008-08-21 09:34:27

I don’t think it means what you think it means.

…we’d be in the crapper”.

I can only believe she is referring to herself and other real estate agents. Whether or not her actions cause a community to rot away is apparently not her concern.

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-08-21 09:55:42

Higher crime, traffic, developments everywhere, locals priced out of where they grew up, higher taxes, etc. You ARE in the crapper…

It sounds just like Florida.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-08-21 10:05:44

I think pricing local people working at local wages out of their own cities, towns and neighborhoods will go down as the single worst social effect of the bubble. But I am confident that the situation will reverse itself.

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2008-08-21 09:07:44

I was through there three weeks ago and had a conversation with a young clerk in the tobacco store. Her comment was that house prices were not down, but that suddenly everyone wants to sell, and nothing is moving. She said it might be a good time to buy a house in a couple of years (for her and her husband).

Comment by Blue Skye
2008-08-21 09:08:57

responding to NC question above

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-08-21 09:09:41

“How people who bought homes once valued at $800,000 down the the road at upscale subdivisions like The Preserves …have friends and relatives living in their basements to help pay the mortgage.”

I liked the name. When my grandma cans homemade jam, chutney, stuff like that, she calls them ‘preserves’. Come to think of it, it seems ‘The Preserves’ are in a pickle! hahahahaha!

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-08-21 09:12:37

Oh, golly, I’m sorry. Normally bad puns make me crazy with wrath, and here I just attempted the revolting practice myself. Luckily, I didn’t hurt myself.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-08-21 09:19:15

Well, now they can just “pre-serve” the foreclosure papers!

Hyuk, hyuk, hyuk. ;-)

 
 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-08-21 09:21:43

I wonder if they also have skeletons living in the closets?

Comment by pismoclam
2008-08-21 15:21:09

Just found two dehydrated bodies (unrelated) in a storage unit in Bakersfield. No suspects yet.

 
 
 
Comment by Michael
2008-08-21 09:37:40

Will the NAR and state associations ever accept that while the line “real estate is local” in terms of price level, the mess we have now, because of mortgage securitization, is actually international and we are all going to be affected by it? I know that’s not exactly a call to action for buyers, but the more they try to push the fraudulent idea that now is a great time to buy and that prices are articifially depressed because of the media and blogs like this one, the longer any sort of stabilization and eventual recovery to a functional and stable market will take.

 
Comment by WantsOut
2008-08-21 09:45:59

“Fucile, who is 82, and his wife, wound up in an option ARM from IndyMac after consolidating two mortgages on their suburban Philadelphia home. Fucile was attracted by the low monthly payments, but says the mortgage broker who signed him up for the loan didn’t tell him the principal balance could increase. It has risen about $24,000 to $276,000.”

“‘He put me in a bad position,’ said Fucile, who fears he will be forced into foreclosure. ‘He misled me.’”

***********

You’re 82 and you have a 252K mortgage, what was that, a good position?

Comment by denquiry
2008-08-21 12:44:50

You’re 82 and you have a 252K mortgage, what was that, a good position.
——————————————————————–
Hey, if Ed McMahon can do it, then by hell, I can do it too.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-08-21 11:22:38

Gilt by association…

“Several on the panel referred to the national media, laying some of the blame at the feet of the Richmond Times-Dispatch, other daily newspapers and television news. The media, they indicated, reported the worst declines in Nevada, California and Florida, leaving the impression that Richmond also suffered from much lower sale prices and high foreclosure rates.”

 
Comment by NoVa Sideliner
2008-08-21 11:26:59

Frederick County, Maryland, anecdote:

Co-worker of mine says his neighbors have finally given up on their house up there. The U-Haul is out front. The kids were tearily hugging their freinds goodbye today.

They bought the place a few years ago for $300k, borrowing it all. Then they HELOC’d $40k. Then another $50k. Then yet another $50k. This on a place that Zillow tagged at $450k peak. That was two years ago, and after that the banks wouldn’t give them $50k/year to supplement their spending anymore.

No idea if they are facing actual foreclosure or just bailing while the bailing is good, but the second mortage holder (Countrywide/successors) will take a serious bruising on this one.

Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-08-21 17:54:40

“They bought the place a few years ago for $300k, borrowing it all. Then they HELOC’d $40k. Then another $50k. Then yet another $50k. This on a place that Zillow tagged at $450k peak.”

Wow, they left $10K untapped. Amateurs.

 
 
Comment by NoVa Sideliner
2008-08-21 11:48:17

Frederick County, Maryland, anecdote:

Co-worker of mine says his neighbors have finally given up on their house up there. The U-Haul is out front. The kids were tearily hugging their friends goodbye today.

They bought the place a few years ago for $300k, borrowing it all. Then they HELOC’d $40k. Then another $50k. Then yet another $50k. This on a place that Zillow tagged at $450k peak. That was two years ago, and after that the banks wouldn’t give them $50k/year to supplement their spending anymore.

No idea if they are facing actual foreclosure or just bailing while the bailing is good, but the second mortgage holder (Countrywide/successors) will take a serious bruising on this one.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-08-21 11:57:34

My very first “Swope” (and a banker, as an added bonus) i’ve ever encountered…

“‘There are challenges that our company and our industry are facing which are new to us all,’ said Swope Montgomery Jr., CEO of BNC Bancorp, the holding company for Bank of North Carolina.”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-08-21 12:30:35

I grew up in West Chester, Pennsylvania. There’s a Swope Hall on the campus of West Chester University, and the local Swopes are quite active in…

…banking.

 
 
Comment by Crusader
2008-08-21 12:28:19

Why would anyone give an 82yo a mortgage?

Comment by jerry from richardson
2008-08-21 13:07:12

Commission

 
 
Comment by In Raleigh
2008-08-21 12:34:52

Four of our friends have houses for sale right now in the Raleigh area. All of the houses have been for sale for about 2-3 months.

1. A 3/2 home on 1/3 acre in Garner is listed at $215,000. Nice middle class neighborhood, but a bit far for jobs in RTP. Either 0 or 1 showings so far.

2. A 3/2 home, just gutted and renovated, with about 2800 sq ft finished and 1500 sq ft unfinished on the second floor. It’s a FSBO near downtown Raleigh, on maybe 1/4 acre, in a nice neighborhood. They’re asking $600,000 and haven’t had more than one showing.

3. A 4 br house on 1 acre. It’s almost 3000 sq ft and is just south of Raleigh. They’re asking abour $400,000. I don’t know how many showings they’ve had, but I haven’t heard that people are interested, either.

4. A 4 br house in Holly Springs, on 1 acre. It’s about 1/2 hour south of Raleigh, in a nice neighborhood. Asking about $285,000 now, after dropping the price. Have had about 16 first showings and might finally have someone come back a second time.

The other important point, is that 2 of the above 4 families are building their own houses now and both houses are much larger and more expensive than the current house. One other family already moved, so they also are paying on two mortgages. The 4th family has decided not to buy until their house sells - or maybe even rent a while. While they don’t have two mortgages, the husband’s increased expenses as a contractor have greatly cut into their income.

 
Comment by In Raleigh
2008-08-21 12:41:34

Everywhere I go, I see more houses for sale. Apartment complexes have also started putting out signs saying they’re having “great specials.” As far as I can tell, however, housing prices haven’t really dropped. I don’t spend much time looking, but it seems that most houses within a decent (<20 min ) commute of most jobs are still priced out of the range of a young couple starting out.

If we ever buy a house, we want a 15 year mortgage, max! The goal would be for the mortgage to be <25% of after tax pay, so we could pay it off in 7-10 years. A $200,000 mortgage is way out of our price range. I’m not sure where to find a $100,000 single family house that’s not a heap or far away or in a bad neighborhood in Raleigh.

From my searching on Craigslist, it looks like many decent houses rent for hundreds less than the mortgage would be - although the risk of being booted out by foreclosure or sale might be high.

Comment by denquiry
2008-08-21 12:50:20

If we ever buy a house, we want a 15 year mortgage, max! The goal would be for the mortgage to be <25% of after tax pay, so we could pay it off in 7-10 years
———————————————————————
In my direct experience, I would advise to get a 30 year mortgage and pay extra on it and pay it off in 7 to 10 years. Why? Because in life sh*t happens like layoffs, sickness, accidents. Remember the proverbial saying…The best laid plans of mice and men…..

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-08-21 13:48:35

“If we ever buy a house, we want a 15 year mortgage, max! ”

My strategy in the past was to get a 30-year fixed, but then pay it on a 15-year amortization schedule; the difference in payments is small.

The advantage of this approach is that if you ever DO end up in financial hardship, you can drop down to the smaller payments of the original 30-year amortization schedule without having to negotiate anything with the lender.

The cost of doing this is that you may pay a slightly higher interest rate, since 15-years tend to be slightly cheaper. For me, the insurance value it offered was worth the cost. YMMV.

 
 
 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post