People Got This Imaginary Gift And Borrowed It All
The North County Times reports from California. “On the 3400 block of Hollencrest Road, the real estate bust has turned this neighborhood of 1970s, single-story houses into a checkerboard of browned lawns and plywood-covered windows. Every other house entered foreclosure over the last year. Francisco Lopez will soon join the growing number of former homeowners.”
“Lopez purchased his house for $379,000 with no money down in November 2005, the exact month real estate prices in the county peaked, according to Standard & Poor’s Case-Shiller Home Price Index. He calls it his ‘lucky month,’ with a wry smile. He missed his first payment in March after his loan payment jumped beyond what he could afford.”
“Nearby houses of the same size are listed for as little as $149,900, a drop in value of 60 percent, according to a real estate listing Web site.”
“‘Even if you don’t have a bad loan, you’re upside down on your equity. If you are $50,000 underwater, you could ride that out. But when you’re $180,000 upside down, you’re not going to see that come back in your lifetime,’ said Donna Steward, a real estate agent in San Marcos.”
“But last week, Lopez looked on the brighter side. ‘Before, whenever you looked for a parking spot, you couldn’t find one. Now, there are spaces everywhere,’ he said.”
The Union Tribune. “Those waiting for the lagging housing market to rebound were disappointed yesterday, as MDA DataQuick reported that 2,004 San Diego County homes went into foreclosure in July, a 9 percent increase over the previous month and a spike of nearly 213 percent over last year.”
“The July tally of mortgage failures was a record since DataQuick began tracking foreclosures in 1988. It was the county’s 40th consecutive month of year-over-year increases in both foreclosures and notices of default.”
“‘Prices are going down. A lot of people find it easier to walk away from their mortgages than fighting to stay in the house,’ said Alan Gin, economist for the Burnham-Moores Center for Real Estate at the University of San Diego.”
The Voice of San Diego. “If the rate of new condo sales in downtown San Diego continues the way it did in the first half of 2008, it would take five years and three months to sell all of the new units in the city core, according to recent sales counts from MarketPointe Realty Advisors. That’s about five times as long as the absorption rate for all of the new homes constructed around the county.”
“The years’ supply combined with developers’ inability to find construction financing for projects in downtown San Diego means the boom time gleam of a new condo project has lost its luster. Even the region’s real estate optimists acknowledge the city core is a hard place to do business right now.”
“‘If anything I’m sort of a downtown booster,’ said local real estate analyst Gary London. ‘But let’s face it: the cycle is over.’”
The Glendale News Press. “A round-table gathering of seven business and economic leaders from Los Angeles County and the region gathered Wednesday in Pasadena to address concerns about the economy, energy prices and the recent closure of 33 IndyMac banks throughout California.”
“John Bovenzi, CEO of IndyMac Federal Bank, participated in the forum and answered many of the concerns expressed by constituents. Brenda Cox was one of about a dozen people in the audience who sought advice from Bovenzi after she lost more than $100,000 after her accounts in IndyMac were seized by federal regulators.”
“‘What would you do in my situation?’ she asked Bovenzi.”
The Friday Flyer. “The Canyon Lake Chamber of Commerce held its regular monthly meeting Wednesday. The keynote speaker was Riverside County Tax Assessor Larry Ward, who said his office has reviewed property values in the County and is offering a reprieve for local homeowners whose homes have decreased in value below their original property tax base.”
“Citywide he said it reflects a 2.82 percentage decrease and countywide the property value assessment rolls were reduced by six billion dollars.”
“As many local real estate appraisers have already discovered, the Assessor said Canyon Lake is a challenge when it comes to determining values. Because his office does mass appraisals, they are faced with the challenges of the area having homes in the million-dollar range as well as homes in the $300,000 or even lower price range, with factors such as waterfront property and location within the community contributing to the value.”
“‘The problem right now is no fair market sales,’ he said. The fair market value he explained, is a property offered for sale with a willing seller and buyer who are under no undue stress. Since so many properties are either foreclosures or short sales, he said they don’t fall into the category of fair market sales.”
The Daily Press. “On Thursday, about 800 people were registered to attend an auction at the San Bernardino County Fair grounds to bid on the 163 foreclosed homes that were on the market. Rob Friedman, conducted the auction and said the banks are very motivated to get rid of the properties and are taking some big losses.”
“‘We are liquidating foreclosures for numerous banks. A lot of major national banks have decided they need these properties off their books,’ Friedman said.”
“One example is a large home that was valued at over $300,000 and the winning bid was $70,000.”
“Locally at least 41 percent of homes - or 1,600 to 1,700 homes - currently listed for sale are foreclosures, said Carol Yule, President of the Victor Valley Board of Realtors. Yule said most of the foreclosures didn’t happen overnight and in many cases it is a combination of factors that lead to a family losing their home with the biggest issue being equity.”
“‘People got this gift of equity. We went up 130 percent in home values between 2000 and 2005, so people got this imaginary gift and people borrowed it all,’ said Yule.”
“An illegal alien with previous criminal convictions, pleaded guilty Thursday to forgery in connection with identity theft and buying a home under someone else’s name, prosecutors said.”
“The investigation began in October 2006 after a woman tried to buy a home in Victorville. She was denied credit because she was told she already owned a Victorville home. After checking the report, she discovered it showed her having two mortgage loans in her name, totaling some $177,000, for which she never applied, officials from the San Bernardino County District Attorney’s office said.”
The Bakersfield Californian. “Two major builders have abandoned housing projects near northeast Bakersfield’s City in the Hills development. A third is halting construction at an Arvin site it recently said was going forward.”
“Such moves appear to be snowballing as deflation of the region’s housing bubble continues. Developers have lost entire tracts to foreclosure, sold holdings at fire-sale prices and, more recently, pulled out of sinking projects and markets altogether.”
“Two incomplete model homes baked in the sun Thursday on the south side of Paladino Drive, west of Vineland Road. No markings indicated this was the Castellina tract of Dallas-based Centex, which announced the new neighborhood’s opening in October.”
“Unfinished tract walls, utility hookups and tiers of graded lots stretched into the distance south and west of the unpainted model units.”
“Lupe Chavez, the on-site sales agent for Azul and Brisa, said a blowout sale held over the weekend was in preparation for shutting down the office by the end of September. About 128 of the tract’s planned 325 homes have been built.”
“‘I’ll be out of a job,’ Chavez said with apparent good humor, adding she was ready for a short break after 12 years of selling houses.”
The Monterey County Herald. “Cedar Funding Inc. bankruptcy trustee Todd Neilson can’t be accused of sugarcoating his assessment of the Monterey real estate lender Thursday.”
“In front of a Monterey Conference Center crowd of about 600 people, many of whom sank money into Ceder Funding’s $183 million loan portfolio expecting double-digit returns, Neilson described the company’s finances as a ‘mess’ and a ‘disaster.’”
“About 1,400 people, many of them Central Coast residents, sank millions of dollars into individual property loans and a mortgage investment pool managed by Cedar Funding. But trouble started this spring, when the state real estate market slumped and Cedar Funding reduced and then eliminated monthly investor payments.”
“During a 90-minute presentation, Neilson detailed three of Cedar Funding’s heaviest real estate investments - a golf course and RV park in Los Angeles County, a 78,000-square-foot residence in Carmel Valley, and a house in Pebble Beach - that face potentially staggering losses.”
“‘It was like a boat sinking,’ he said.”
“Cedar Funding owner David Nilsen sat in the front row of the large meeting room. Nilsen declined the trustee’s invitation to answer questions under oath. Barbara Briley, a Salinas investor, approached Nilsen during a break and told him he should be in jail ‘with the door closed.’ ‘I am very angry and disappointed,’ she said.”
“Paul Capos, a Carmel Valley investor, said the trustee’s report was depressing. He said he expects to get back 20 percent to 30 percent of the money he put in the company.”
“Paul Forgette, an investor from Prunedale, said, ‘It’s just a dose of reality.’ He said he is fortunate that he doesn’t have to rely on Cedar Funding interest payments to get by. ‘What can you do? I could get ulcers, but this isn’t … my whole life,’ he said.”
The Mercury News. “Cupertino accountant Richard Smith wants to buy a few bank-repossessed houses in Antioch and Brentwood priced at about $200,000 and rent them out. He can make down payments of about 30 percent, and can afford the mortgage payments. But he can’t find a bank who will make him the loans.”
“‘I’m a very active investor, I’m self-employed with a solid income, and every one of my properties have positive cash flow,’ said Smith, who has been buying rentals in California and Texas for 30 years. ‘I’ve never had a problem getting a loan. All of a sudden I’ve just run into a solid wall.’”
“‘If we can’t participate, we can’t burn through these inventories and help the market correct,’ said Geraldine Barry, president of the San Jose Real Estate Investment Association. ‘What I’m hearing from our members now is, ‘I have a deal; I can’t get money’.'”
“Barry and her husband recently bought a foreclosed house in Sacramento for $114,000; the previous owner owed about $250,000 on the property when the bank repossessed it. Even with a 25 percent down payment, they were unable to find a loan because they have more than four outstanding mortgages, so they paid in cash.”
“Barry said she wants to buy more bank-owned California properties in coming months, but has yet to figure out exactly how she will finance deals, if lender restrictions remain in place.”
“‘There are only so many houses I can buy in cash,’ she said.”
The Fresno Bee. “A slowing economy and falling gas prices could stem the skyrocketing cost of construction materials, which are helping squeeze the profit out of home building.”
“William Lyles, president of a diversified construction company in Fresno, said price declines will become more obvious. ‘This break in commodity prices is only a few weeks old,’ he said. ‘I think you will see a lot of commodity prices drop in the near future.’”
“Home builders also are getting relief in the form of lower labor costs. The slump in construction has flooded the marketplace with workers. But housing prices have fallen 16% in just the past year in Fresno County, which puts builders in a tough spot.”
“Going forward, developers will see lower land prices. But many builders, especially those who entered the Fresno area at the peak of the real estate boom, are sitting on land they paid top dollar for and can’t sell.”
“‘They have existing houses they are trying to sell and are faced with a choice going forward: They can exit the business or try to charge prices people are willing to pay,’ said Bernard Markstein, senior economist at the National Association of Home Builders.”
“That means lowering prices. To do that, builders are constructing smaller homes, including fewer frills and accepting little or no profit.”
The Ventura County Star. “A bigger home is not always better, according to a survey by Coldwell Banker, which asked consumers what influences their buying decisions.”
“When economic times get tough, homebuyers crave security. They are more apt to choose comfortable, cozy and warm homes over airy spaces and lofty views, said Ruth Peters, a clinical psychologist in Clearwater, Fla. ‘Lofty views don’t keep people together,’ Peters said.”
“Today’s buyers don’t necessarily need granite tops and new stainless steel appliances that people were demanding three years ago, said Temple Schneider, a Realtor in Camarillo. It’s partly because the market is dominated by short sales and foreclosures, and most of the homes on the market are not as nice as they were a few years ago, she said.”
“‘It seems like buyers’ attitudes are falling into alignment with what’s available,’ Schneider said.”
“While just a few years ago, some buyers were eager to get as much house as they could afford, now they have grown more cautious. Many buyers are more willing to trade square footage and fancy upgrades for a lower, more comfortable mortgage.”
“‘People are beginning to realize what’s important,’ Peters said. ‘In this topsy-turvy, everything-going-so-quickly, divorce-laden world, we want our home to not necessarily be a castle, but we want it to be a safe, secure and comfortable refuge.’”
People Got This Imaginary Gift And Borrowed It All
The Truth Fairy has now left the building…
Well, looks like it’s time for the F*ckup Fairy to take over.
That Mercury News report is a shocker. And look how much land has fallen in Bakersfield. Who’s dreaming now?
‘Last month, the Los Angeles headquartered national homebuilder sold a different northeast parcel for $765,000 — about $2.5 million less than it paid for the land in 2005.’
‘The move helped fuel rumors KB Home is pulling out of the local market. ‘We continue to evaluate all our options regarding our Bakersfield-area land holdings,’ said Craig LeMessurier, regional spokesman for KB Home.’
Bakersfield and environs is no less a disaster story than the entire length of Highway 99, all the way north up to approx. a 50 mile radius from the Capitol Building, in Sacramento.
Empty houses & stillborn housing projects are everywhere.
It’s a Horror Show, of epic financial proportions…
So true…the 99 corridor is a disaster…sadly only a few of us were screaming from the rooftoops only to be ignored.
Maybe they should change their name to KY Home.
‘We continue to evaluate all our options regarding our Bakersfield-area land holdings,’ said Craig LeMessurier, regional spokesman for KB Home.’
I’m guessing “leaving town under cover of darkness” tops their list of options.
This is going to kill his Neilson Ratings…
“In front of a Monterey Conference Center crowd of about 600 people, many of whom sank money into Ceder Funding’s $183 million loan portfolio expecting double-digit returns, Neilson described the company’s finances as a ‘mess’ and a ‘disaster.’”
What really shocks me is this line…
“a 78,000-square-foot residence in Carmel Valley”.
I thought John Edward’s 30,000 square foot mansion was extreme. Does anyone here know what a 78K square foot house looks like? Don’t people who buy such places have billions in cash and just pay upfront?
CHeck out the Manse of Mrs Spelling. I recall driving by when that monstrosity was being built. I couldn’t believe someone got a permit to obliterate ALL the views.
I think the Spelling manse, which is for sale now, was over 58,000sf.
There was a typo in the story–the house size was actually 7,800 square feet. I’m guessing it was somewhere in Santa Lucia Preserve, a gated community with multi-million dollar bare lots.
It’s interesting that these are being written off as big losses–on paper the upper end of Pebble Beach and the swankier areas of Carmel Valley have been holding up OK on prices.
“expecting double-digit returns”/???
Sorry, did we forgot to mention they would be negative double-digit returns?
The death of Las Vegas Real Estate might have to be put on hold for awhile.
New Drivers Licenses issued in Clark County for July 6, -6126 -, up 12% from June and the same as July 2007. And then we see active Residential Electric Meters
total- 726,000-, up 4,000 from July 2007. Total employment stands at
-917,000- vesus 920,000 in July 2007. A total loss of 3,000 jobs in an economy with 920,000 jobs. Sales of existing homes for July -3,169- up 50% from 2007. 50%, 50%, 50%
Sorry, Ben’s BubbleHeads, we got a PUSH in Las Vegas Real Estate right now.
Not too good, but not that bad
Why don’t you keep this great secret money maker to yourself and buy, buy buy? I can’t find the bandwidth to post all the horror stories coming out of Vegas. I’ll be keeping my powder dry. But I’ve got a cardboard box in Tuba City reserved for you and LV Landlord.
And if you ever call anyone names here again I’ll ban you from every site I’ve got.
Oh, please, let him in. We haven’t had a troll in so long.
Indulge us. It’s summer.
It’s right up there with fruit ices and summer sandals.:-)
Ode to the King…
Bright light city gonna set my soul
Gonna set my soul on fire
Got a whole lot of money thats ready to burn,
So get those stakes up higher
There’s tens a thousands of pretty houses waitin’ out there
And they’re all empty devil may care
And i’m just the devil with an axe to bear
Viva las vegas, viva las vegas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiojxJxBj0
I agree with Fasty, Ben! Let’s keep the troll! Please, please! Oh, it’s been sooooo long since I’ve had any barbequed troll. High in calories, yes, but the nicely toasted stupidity goes so good with cold beer and chips, and of course, fruit ices and cute sandals.
You know what, fellow Bubbleheads, we cannot waste this precious troll. They’re so rare nowadays, we should sort of eke out the pleasure, savor the process, keep him going for awhile.
Watch me, I’m going to give it a try.
(ahem)
David Cee! Your numbers are persuasive! Tell me more, I urge you eagerly!
As far as I know vegas is a disaster area right up there w/ florida.Anyone want a condo in florida? Yhey are 60% + sales.
Linens n things are liquidating their inventory here in az.The one in mills mall is all closed up, sold everything.
Mervyns is toast too.
I’m wondering which sporting goods store will be toast? Dick’s is killing everyone.Could it be big5?
A note to Gary London: Gary ,the cycle is less than half over. We’ve got 3 to 4 years left. The option arms and the other neg am loans need to be flushed out in ‘09 and ‘10.
David CEE, BFD, so there are more people moving to Vegas. Are you going to tell me they’re running out of land there? And how many of those people have enough to buy a house? Or are they gonna rent from you? Like Ben says, put your money where your mouth is.
Notice he didn’t cite price declines? When houses are selling 3 for a dollar of course you’ll see increases in volume.
This news makes me happy because it means that my competition is committing liquidity waaayyyy too early.
“bring out the gimp”
I’m envisioning the disturbing scene from Pulp Fiction. David Cee is our “gimp”.
I vote to keep David - his comments are like throwing chum out to sharks!
Don’t run of the real estate trolls. They’re an endangred species.
Have another drink! -
But i agree!!
David is still hot under the collar because his Lady Hill got the thumbs down from the D-ratic electorate.
You got that right, Professor. The Biden announcement must have really melted his gray matter. Maybe a party at Rob Reiner’s place will make it all better. It would be appropriate. While reading his baffling post, the only word that came to my mind was “meathead”.
No, Ben, no! We haven’t had a real live troll in ages. Surely you won’t deny us HBB stalwarts the satisfaction of clubbing him like a baby seal every time he rears his clueless head in here.
Ban him, he is boring.
Drivers licenses (lol) - how many kids have to take/retake drivers ed in June to get their license in July. 4000 people used their stimulus checks to turn their electric meters back on. Sorry about the rest of the turned off meters, the owners were drinking their stimulus check on the strip.
BFD
Ban him
78,000 SF house. ???????????????????????///
“Sales of existing homes for July -3,169- up 50% from 2007. 50%, 50%, 50%”.
Wow! Sounds so very exciting, I guess everyone really does want to live in Vegas! I highly recommend you cash out your 401k and grab all the additional cash you can and jump in with both feet. RE in Vegas is going to the moon and beyond. I heard Ivana is going to build a Condo Tower there. Buy now or be priced out forever, the rest of us poor slobs are going to be envious.
I know of multiple friends/coworkers trying to sell in Vegas. They’d be very happy if the few remaining real estate trolls would buy from them. They’re offering great discounts, but they just won’t give the homes away!
Trying to claim Vegas is doing a rebound is amazing…
Miss the US air hub? Notice that Southwest just posted their fall schedule with a pretty hefty Las Vegas cut?!? In other words, where are the seats coming from to fill those Las Vegas condohotels, regular hotels, etc. Every time someone I know drives to Las Vegas they’re mocking how open the traffic is now…
I’m not in the ‘feed the troll camp.’ Too many people I know and care about succumbed to their idiotic ‘buy now or be priced out forever’ or ‘now is the time to get off the fence’ BS.
I’m one of the more optimistic bears (recession). My predictions say its ok to buy earlier than most of the other wise ones here. (2010). Oh… not 2009 nor now. That year will be a doozy (2009)…
The darkest days are ahead.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
I talked to a realtor today in Temecula, and he parroted what I’ve heard from all the realtors I’ve talked to lately. They say that things will go down until 2009, and then quickly go up again. They then say that I should buy now to avoid the inevitable rush in early 2009. What say y’all?
Tell him that if he’ll buy the house for you you’ll give him 50% of any capital gain during the next 50 years.
HURRY HURRY
I never saw so many vacant, or unbuilt commercial props in Temecula. Just like someone walked away from the comm props.Kinda eery.
And the fwy through Temecula to Escondido was eerily empy as well on a Weekend..
I am going to use the word Eery again. It was really quietly eery. lol
Like no one left their homes.
Cut this guy some slack. At least he hails from the one state in the union where such prostitution is legal.
Vegas is hell on earth..
Some of the damned spend eternity shoveling coal into the furnaces.. some souls are forever forced to defend it’s RE market.
If anyone’s wondering where these driver license numbers come from:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2007/sep/13/license-to-count/
Do you need to change your driver’s license to prove residence to try to convince the bank that you didn’t commit fraud on your loan application?
To apply for unemployment?
To get your kid on the state sponsored low income health care plan?
To get on the list for subsidized apartments?
To pick up stuff at the emergency food pantry?
yup.. there’s lots of reasons.. i think you’re supposed to do it within 6 months of moving somewhere but unless the cops/DMV force the issue, it can be put off forever.
Schwer is the first to admit his counting system has its share of flaws, including that it doesn’t measure the number of people who move away, are born here or die.
Maybe they are going to have to have a video of a buyer when they sign loan docs ,as well as fingerprints .
Move away will be the big hole for LV population stats. All those out-of-work construction workers, mortgage brokers and real estate agents moving out more than likely exceed the retirees moving in who were able to sell their homes in California.
I expect the driver’s license numbers for Las Vegas to pick up once the expected California tax increases are announced. The LA county sales tax could go to 9.75%, and the state income tax rate may go to eleven (percent).
For people in certain situations, trading in one’s Cali driver’s license for a Nevada license is looking to be a pretty good deal.
Ahnold is starting to sound like Nigel Tufnel from Spinal Tap:
“You see, most folks, you know, will be taxing at ten. You’re on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, you’re on ten on your budget. Where can you go from there? Where? What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?”
“Put it up to Eleven!”
This may be a tipping point SM….I am actually thinking of residency out of Cali even though I love where I live and would likely retain my house there…Cali is searching for ways to raise revenue while we continue to hemorrhage..Wait until they do the 09-10 budget…It will dwarf the 15 bil we are in the hole right now…
Thanks, joeyincalif.
So, upon reading the article, it seems the “statistic” is baseless. The method they use is like counting births and not counting deaths. What would U.S. population estimates be if we did that (and took it seriously as a barometer of population or economic health)?
This method is flawed. Apparently, there’s a core “driver-move-to-LV” number of about 6,500 a month. What we don’t know is the core “driver-move-out-of-LV” number, nor do we know anything about non-drivers–kids, the elderly, people moving from NY. The number is unrelated to the truth we want to know.
Kinda like all the other RE propaganda.
IAT
You notice that the politicians don’t hesitate to use such flaky statistics to spend money on new infrastructure..
“You notice that the politicians don’t hesitate to use such flaky statistics to spend money on new infrastructure…”
I wonder…does the common politician consider “infrastructure” to mean new t**ties and other assorted plastic surgeries for their latest mistresses, trans-sexuals and boy toys?
Me thinks we should stick to words like “roads”, “bridges”, “overpasses” and “railways” when we talk about infrastructure on this board. Otherwise, our hard-earned, easily stolen tax money might be spent on dimestore street whores. We wouldn’t want that, would we?
You omitted change in FMV from your numbers. Why not post some numbers of avg condo and sfh psf using same community/complex? Then we will talk.
Hey David Cee,
While you’ve still got a fixed address, allow me to send you a large cardboard box and a case of Thunderbird or Mad Dog 20/20, complements of the HBB…you’re going to need them in your next, more mobile phase of life. [I figure you can acquire a shopping cart on your own.] And if you happen to come across LV Landlord while “camping out” under some bridge or off-ramp, please give her our warm regards, though she may not be totally lucid at this stage of the game.
(Sung to the tune of “C. C. Rider”)
Cee Cee Troll, see what you done done
Cee Cee Troll, see what you done done
Cee Cee Troll, see what you done done
Cee Cee Troll, see what you done done
My home is underwater, I don’t believe no troll like you
My home is underwater, I don’t believe no troll like you
My home is underwater, I don’t believe no troll like you
I’d rather be dead than to stay here and be your dog
These stastics from UNLV, Center for Business and Economic Research. The July numbers are Real World and timely and are what the PHD economist and the Allen Greenspan’s
study in order to get a sense of the what to do next.
When I see new Driver’s License numbers at -6,126- and increased Active Resedential Electric Meter Count at -726,448- up 0.5% from 2007, it tells me people are NOT leaving Las Vegas. More meters are active this year than last year, and more people are coming. This has got to be a better sign than if less active meters were being turned on, and less people were arriving.
How am I suppossed to read these facts?
Most of the news feeds I read are the 2nd quarter of 2008, isn’t the figures for July 2008 more accurate?
With a median home price of $210,000 and and FHA interest rate under 6% for a 30 year fixed rate, it might be time to at least consider the possibility that we have light at the end of the tunnel.
earlier today i looked at Trulia.. Las Vegas, SFHs: 31,400 listings, 21,000 of which are foreclosures/NODs.
If i recall numbers from a couple months ago about 18,000 of these were vacant.
ok.. so there’s some movement in the market. Nobody should deny it. Distressed properties are attractive to wanna-be specuvestors and premature bottom feeders.
People buy them and hook up the water meter.
Are jobs still going south? Are RE prices still falling? Are foreclosures outpacing sales? If so (out-of-state driver license transfers notwithstanding) there’s no point in discussing it, imho.
Heck, mom needs a new drivers license, so maybe that and a LLC in LV will add me to the #s and then I will still live in a desert, although this one, Coachella Valley.
I heard the DL price is lower than CA. I know that the LLC registration is lower.
“and are what the PHD economist and the Allen Greenspan’s
study in order to get a sense of the what to do next.”
In the last three years the “BubbleHeads” here at the HBB have been far more accurate than AG and 90% of all PhD’s. (Thornberg and a few others excluded.) If you believe we are wrong and the correction has occurred you should stop wasting time posting arguments here and work on buying as many investments as possible before the next bubble begins.
There’s nothing wrong with offering an opinion that deviates from the majority. But doing so in such an insulting manner will cause the scorn to continue to follow you and your judgement to be permanently questioned. I was once in a networking meeting where a mortgage broker (in 2006) cited numbers that showed real estate was coming back - after all “numbers don’t lie.” For some reason he gave me a strange look when I snorted at that. You can present numbers here but be prepared to back them up with data that indicates why they matter. I don’t see anything in yours that gives me any desire to run out and buy right now. But please, don’t let my bubbleheadedness deter you - if the market is poised to turn around YOU should be buying, not hanging out on a site with so many doom and gloomers.
Here’s how to read the facts:
USE YOUR ‘NOGGIN!
Don’t trust something just because an economist says it, even if (especially if) that economist is Greenspan. A bad statistic is a bad statistic.
Didn’t you learn anything in the aftermath of the boom? Weren’t all the experts trotting out (bad) statistics to support their view all through the boom and even after it started heading downward? Do you think that self-serving or ignorant behavior has just stopped?
IAT
Brenda Cox lost $100,000 she had in a Indymac account when the Feds took over the bank. She asked former Indymac CEO, John Bovenzi, “What would you do in my position?”
Simpler answer: Get a brain, idiot. The warning bells were ringing for months before Indymac went belly up so how dumb could she be to leave $100,000 un-insured in a bank which was at high risk of failing? Frankly, she deserves to lose the money. You can be sure CEO John Bovenzi made sure HE wasn’t going to lose any money.
Jeez, a 2 minute search on the internet or a quick look at some FREE charts, StockCharts for instance, will tell you how a bank (or any other institution come to that) is doing. I had money in a bank in California called Downey Savings. It might survive but I was out of there like greased lightning when I looked at the chart (DSL).
Anyone with $100,000 (as opposed to $50) in a bank who doesn’t do their homework shouldn’t be worth $100,000.
It’s well known that a fool and his money shall soon depart. I always wonder how they found each other in the first place.
what happens when there is no inheritance tax. same way W got to be president.
Sometimes there’s just no way around having over 100K in a bank..
Almost any transaction involving real estate or selling a business or similar is gonna be over 100K. Someone dies and the executor or trustee of the estate will sell some or all assets and collect it in some bank, only later to be distributed to beneficiaries.
If the bank fails before the trust is dissolved (which may take a couple years) .. well.. tough luck.
A couple months ago we had a thread about where to put say a million bucks, even on a temporary basis.. Chopping it up to deposit it all in 10 different FDIC insitutions is a pain in the butt.
I hear that everbank is offering a CD fully backed by FDIC up to 50 million. Apparently they broker it out somehow. I don’t have the details but if anyone is interested you can follow up.
Most stock brokerages can sell you brokered CDs, and they can be spread over lots of banks. Even these are getting a little to come by, I hear, as they are considered “hot money”, and the FDIC is leaning on some banks to stop selling them to brokers.
Here’s how.
http://www.cdars.com/index.php
Chopping it up to deposit it all in 10 different FDIC insitutions is a pain in the butt.
Not nearly as much of a pain in the butt as trying to get $900K out of a failed institution.
yeah.. So, you put $150K here.. $125K there.. cut it down to maybe 5 or 6 banks and lessen the risk of having it all in one bank. One failure wouldn’t be as expensive. But even then it’s a calculated risk.
You have $1,000,000 and might lose $25K.. thats only 2.5%. There is some psychology involved here. Prudent people might try to avoid any known risks… or might get lazy.
btw, uninsured deposits are not necessarily lost. The failed bank’s assets will be sold and uninsured deposits are eventually paid off by the FDIC .. if i recall.. at about 75% of original value historically speaking.
Larger depositors are more likely to lose some of their money.
When I sold my San Jose house in May 2006, I had set up half a dozen money-market accounts in local banks. My instructions to the title company at close of escrow was to divy up the proceeds among these accounts, therefore protecting me. It was all done via electronic-funds-transfers.
While a bit of trouble, it simply wasn’t that big a deal. I have little sympathy for those who were too lazy to do the same thing.
“Chopping it up to deposit it all in 10 different FDIC insitutions is a pain in the butt.”
Not to mention the fact that you’ll probably be flagged as a money-laundering terrorist!
The answer … Treasury Money Market Fund.
My bank isn’t very risky, but I admit I had let my total deposits get above $100K. Took care of it pretty quickly when the Indymac debacle gave me a kick in the pants. It was time to get a local bank anyway. I won’t let that happen again.
“Barbara Briley, a Salinas investor, approached Nilsen during a break and told him he should be in jail ‘with the door closed.’ ‘I am very angry and disappointed,’ she said.”
Barbara it’s all about greed. You were expecting double digit returns when everyone else was getting single digit returns, youse throws the dice and gets your fate. This is the real mentality up here in Salinas where everyone thinks of themselves as a smart RE investor.
” Even with a 25 percent down payment, they were unable to find a loan because they have more than four outstanding mortgages, so they paid in cash.”
Gee, I wonder what the rate of return on that $114K will be when all expenses are thrown into the mix.
Fleet Enema is taking on water quicker than I thought it would…
Loan Overboard!
“The fair market value he explained, is a property offered for sale with a willing seller and buyer who are under no undue stress. Since so many properties are either foreclosures or short sales, he said they don’t fall into the category of fair market sales.”
That’s the exact same non-sense we see in Miami. On the way up the county couldn’t raise assesments fast enough. Now on the way down there are “no fair market sales”. Miami just “re-assesed” for 2008. They simply took over the inflated 2007 values. I hope enough people get together and force a class action lawsiut.
Someone want to clear this up for us? Is not a short sale an arms length transaction between a willing seller and a willing buyer that needs approval from the bank ONLY because the transaction amount is below the current mortgage amount?
Why is this considered a distress sale? If a family decides to move for whatever reason and the only buyer is one that offers considerably less than what they owe the bank and the bank allows the sale (and agrees to take the hit), I fail to see how that isn’t a legit value for appraisal purposes? Maybe I’m not looking at this correctly?
I think you’re right. It’s simply a scam, and the government is complicit because its in their best interest to “keep house prices high”
well, a short sale is not exactly business as usual.
If your next door neighbor just happens to suffer personal circumstances that cause a short sale, why should your property’s value be downgraded?
We are kinda numb about shortsales in this market.. but they are an abberation during normal times. Appraisal rules should be geared to function properly in normal markets, not in a market crash, imo.
Do you guys know if reos are used as comps when appraisors work their magic?
google search:
reo comps appraisals
Ameriquest recently began instructing appraisers:
* PLEASE NOTE: If the market has a significant number of REO sales and REO listings and these properties are competitive properties to the subject, then REO sales and REO listings should be included in the report. The final value conclusion should reflect this REO influence, if such an influence exists.
http://appraisercom.com/forum/forum_entry.php?id=235
“Do you guys know if reos are used as comps when appraisors work their magic?”
AD, when we do BPOs for asset companies, they want us to indicate if the comps are short sales or foreclosures, if we have that info. While this doesn’t impact taxes [yet], it does let the banks know where the market is headed.
What’s curious is that the asset companies no longer object to using shorts/REOs as comps — they now know where the trend is going and aren’t fighting it any more.
As for tax assessors, a useful response might be that since the boom can be proved to be based on fraudulent assessments, liar loans and lax lending standards, the previously high values can not be considered fair market in any way.
The problem is that you just got used to taking the money, based on that fraud.
Joey, That could be ONE scenario why they sell their house but what if the reason is that they want to move to better weather or they have a job change? I mean the market value is what it is. If they advertise and no one offers anymore money then what is agreed too, what are the choices for some one who wants to move? Just because the market value dropped 30% doesn’t mean that the sale is a distressed sale does it?
Where is the rule that every sale below previous purchase price is a distress sale?
This is absolutely business as usual and the deal is between a willing buyer & seller, with the caveat that the bank is brought in on the deal for approval because of their impending hit on the collateral.
what if the reason is that they want to move to better weather or they have a job change?
If appraisers did an intensive search into the core reason a property was short-sold, then yes.. all that might matter.
But appraisers would need to be (or hire) private detectives before they got to the bottom of it. I don’t think they get paid to do that kinda work..
why should your property’s value be downgraded?
Because an arm’s length transaction represents the market value as of the day of the sale.
Look at it this way, does anyone doubt that they would refuse a buyer who came along with a higher number? So the problem is that there is NO buyer at the higher number at the time of the transaction, ergo it is the FMV and is a valid comp.
I don’t deny the short-sale sold at FMV, but we’re talking about the effects of that low comp on another, neighboring property.
Some guy has a house fire.. kitchen and roof are toast. Has no insurance.. chooses to bail out. An investor ’snaps’ it up for cheap. How does this reflect on the value of neighboring homes?
why should your property’s value be downgraded?
Downgraded? I would love to have the assessed value of my property lowered! It could lower my property tax.
Let’s put it another way…just because some dumbf**k paid too much of someone else’s money for the house next door to you, does that mean you should pay more property taxes?
taxes.. But if they chop $100K off the value of my home, how much do i save in property taxes? Maybe $1 or 2,000 a year?
Selling that house a couple years later for $100K less than i may have received seems to be a loss.. of maybe $96,000.. but maybe i’m missing something.
–
Lets reverse it. Would you willingly pay $1000 a year to increase the value of your home by $100,000? Is that increased tax burden actually a negative?
What characterizes “normal” times? The 10-40% annual mark-ups in real estate from 1998-2006?
I bet homeowners who made a bundle up to 2006 (and who are seeing their values slackening now) weren’t complaining at all about their neighbor’s rapidly rising property values.
If accepting a loss of property values now due to a neighbor’s foreclosure is somehow unwarranted, then you don’t deserve to walk away with a boatload of money when the value of your neighbor’s house is obscenely high.
The real problem, or course, is that too many people viewed real estate as a get rich quick scheme. This includes many millions of people who bought from 1998-2006 who still live in their homes.
Such is life when you opine that houses should increase in value by more than 4-6% per annum. Fact is, they should only increase 2-3% above inflation per year. Otherwise, the market becomes wildly distorted.
i completely agree. It seems that the rules of appraisal were never designed to be fairly applied during a bubble’s expansion OR contraction.
I think it’s safe to say lenders and appraisers are going to formulate a few new guidelines.. maybe tie things to “normal” appreciation as you suggest.
Joey,
Unfortunately, none of this is going to happen anytime soon due to fed involvement. The Feds need to step aside and let everything crater. Let the citizenry suffer for a good while. As the population deals with the consequences of greed and stupidity, the Feds can force the entire real estate industry to clean up its act.
Throughout, let inflation and wages do their magic to correct real estate. They are the best determinants of home values. We need to go back to that.
Sadly, we’ll never go back to the Gold Standard. We need that, too. Of all the endless complaints about Nixon over the decades, taking us off the gold standard was his biggest blunder by far.
I agree that in a REO-driven market the influence of distressed sales has to be considered in determining value… but buying a REO does carry additional risk, doesn’t it?
Because there’s no resident/owner to vouch for the condition of the property or it’s history, that’s got to make the property less attractive, and depress the price to some degree.
Why is this considered a distress sale ??
Because it is…The bank does not have the “option” of just keeping the house…They are forced to sell it…
“Barbara Briley, a Salinas investor, approached Nilsen during a break and told him he should be in jail ‘with the door closed.’ ‘I am very angry and disappointed,’ she said
Barabara isn’t the only disappointed High Roller in these RE Casino Royal Crap Shoots. These Big Spenders always seem very emotional and disappointed when the DICE roll against them.
The personal body guard services and security business should do well in the next few years
The sad truth is, it’s probably the best time ever to be a white-collar criminal, your chances of getting caught being lessened, as there’s so many of them to collar, like the odds of getting a speeding ticket, while doing 75 mph, along with everybody else, on the freeway in L.A.
“‘I’ll be out of a job,’ Chavez said with apparent good humor, adding she was ready for a short break after 12 years of selling houses.”
LOL. The “short break” will be somewhat longer than she imagines.
Old Will Rogers said..
There are three kinds of men
The ones that learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
Wonders if he was thinking about the wannabe Real Estate speculators back in his days
I have a cousin who once did pee on an electric fence. I don’t recall the circumstance, but it was a definite learning experience. The thing that was odd was that he said that once he started he couldn’t stop until the bladder was empty.
He also said, “I belong to no organized political party….I’m a Democrat.”
Did you know Jack Russell’s cousin? What a small world1
“‘The problem right now is no fair market sales,’ he said. The fair market value he explained, is a property offered for sale with a willing seller and buyer who are under no undue stress. Since so many properties are either foreclosures or short sales, he said they don’t fall into the category of fair market sales.”
I call BS on this ‘fair market sales’ concept. If anything, banks will do a better job of pricing a foreclosure sale to extract maximum value for given market conditions, as they are better informed market participants without the added constraint of needing to sell for enough to pay off a loan. Hence a foreclosure sale is the most representative snapshot of current market demand available. These are the new comps, so just deal with it and stop equivocating!
I totally agree w/ you.The only thing that seems to be selling here are reos and short sale.If you are just trying to sell you better get close to those sales numbers.Instead they rely on hope.Hopefully some dumbsh@t will show up who doesn’t know what is going on.Hope in one hand and sh@t in the other goes the saying.
I wouldn’t be so Forgette-ful, under the same circumstances…
“Paul Forgette, an investor from Prunedale, said, ‘It’s just a dose of reality.’ He said he is fortunate that he doesn’t have to rely on Cedar Funding interest payments to get by. ‘What can you do? I could get ulcers, but this isn’t … my whole life,’ he said.”
Lad - You beat me to that joke.
Lad, I have to meet you.
Or see a pic of you.
Ben, do you have a Lad pic during your forays?
LOL
RE: “One example is a large home that was valued at over $300,000 and the winning bid was $70,000.”
The property tax assessor’s can whine and cry all they want about the definition of “fair market value”, but any credible appraiser is using comparable’s such as the above in their reports on foreclosures..
So the VP in charge of the work-out crew says to his flunkies I want you to dump all of this appraisal foreclosure data into a statistical report which will determine and form and basis for any future loans for the originators.
Might as well MARK TO MARKET, ASSESSOR BOYZ!
Property is only worth what somebody will lend against it.
Man, mil rates are gonna blow thru the roof!
Say, adios, to legions of special ed teachers aides and other assorted public make-work jobs.
That ‘fair value’ comment had me nearly blow a fuse. Fair value is what the market will support. Since today’s market is flooded… fair market value is pretty low.
To to the public make work jobs, most of those became volunteer positions in previous downturns.
Ohio, Michigan, Florida, Nevada, Arizona, and California… Yea… we have enough of a quorum to put us into a harsh recession.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Just like a garage sale is FMV.
So what if you still have the price tag on that “Gucci” purse, here is my dollar bill. Take it or leave it. FMV
Ben’s been to a number of courtroom steps auctions in the past few months, and the scenario i’d imagine is always the same…
The foreclosed property comes up for auction, and whomever loaned the money on it is the only bidder, and away it goes into some dark void.
But…
What if every foreclosed property sold, was done so on an absolute auction basis?
We’d find out what real estate is really worth, in a hurry.
“‘People are beginning to realize what’s important,’ Peters said. ‘In this topsy-turvy, everything-going-so-quickly, divorce-laden world, we want our home to not necessarily be a castle, but we want it to be a safe, secure and comfortable refuge.’”
A safe, secure, and comfortable refuge can be had just by renting in the gated apartment complex in many places. Best way is to be sure it is adjacent to non-gated communities. Burglars would prefer to target areas where access and escape is faster.
In SFH neighborhoods there is a greater chance that your neighbors lied about their incomes if they moved in the last 5 years. Even if they have some level of good citizenship, the friends they invite over won’t likely - particularly if they are hamburger flippers. Liars and cheaters flock together. It’s foolish for an honest family to buy into a neighborhood full of liars - no security in that.
I read somewhere that 40% of all new communities built in the past five years are gated and privately guarded. Talk about the “succession of the successful.”
Bill,
One reason I don’t want to buy any sooner than next Spring - and then only due to long-deferred promise to wife - is that until the dust settles, which is going to take time, the character of whole neighborhoods and communities will be in flux. No-money-down lowlifes who lied on their mortgages to get into houses and neighborhoods way out of their league may not “go quietly into that good night” - I can see bitter FBs and FB-spawn burglarizing neighbors’ houses and adopting a “nothing to lose” mentality as they go down the financial tubes.
Sammy,
I’m willing to venture that this idea has crossed the minds of most of us on this board at times this year, whether we think we’ll soon be thinking about maybe purchasing property or not.
Lots of neighborhoods all over the country - in every state - are taking hits; some are being decimated. The damage often is spotty, knowing no geographic rhyme or reason. It’s difficult to trend.
Speaking of which….anyone on this board ever seen a website that maps (perhaps by color code) houses and neighborhoods based on DATE of purchase? Something like that might come in handy in a year or two. Or three. Or five.
Yeah, you can look online at sales or through county tax records, but doing so is painstakingly slow. It’d be nice to have something fast.
I think the eyes have it. Simply drive around, look at the cars, the people, the yards, the for-sale signs, and you should be able to get at least a cursory idea for whether a neighborhood is stable or not.
Granted, yet I want to know what might happen to a seemingly steady to good neighborhood 2-3 years from now.
Any ideas?
Stability is good. Cars up on blocks though, is a little too stable.
“Cupertino accountant Richard Smith wants to buy a few bank-repossessed houses in Antioch and Brentwood priced at about $200,000 and rent them out. He can make down payments of about 30 percent, and can afford the mortgage payments. But he can’t find a bank who will make him the loans.”
“‘I’m a very active investor, I’m self-employed with a solid income, and every one of my properties have positive cash flow,’ said Smith, who has been buying rentals in California and Texas for 30 years. ‘I’ve never had a problem getting a loan. All of a sudden I’ve just run into a solid wall.’”
========================================
How pathetic is real estate @ present?
Banks are afraid of doing loans with a 30% down payment~
Ya know Alad - that one piqued my interest.
The article quoted him as owning 100 +/- properties in Texas and Cali - all cash flowing.
Hecks, I’d loan him the money!
But really, are banks in panic vs manic mode?
Leigh
I agree with you Leigh - piqued my interest also for a different reason.
This story smells of BS. Questions that come to mind: Is he a bag holder trying to become a bank partner? Is he trying to get an investment loan without a personal guarantee? Does this mean the only loans getting approved are Freddie/Fannie?
If it is the latter case then my good friend and buddy Faster Pussycat SS will be right and prices will revert to 1983.
In a decent market, many banks will do investment loans without a personal guarantee, at least to proven operators. The rate might be a bit higher, but if the deal is solid, they’ll do it.
We are not in a decent market. So operators who would normally have no problem getting loans without the guarantee are now being asked for one, and that changes the equation. Why give a guarantee, when in a few years you won’t need one, and the investment can then be run like a business instead of a personal account?
Hi ya Hoz,
maybe this guy should check out the Bank of Sealy
Hiya Footie!
Any rain in Australia? Still pumping Bank of Sealy, I go where the money is located, the Middle East and Asia.
I am a firm believer in the 1950’s ‘prepare yourself for nuclear war’ mentality. Duck and cover.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0K_LZDXp0I
Whenever I think back on my Jr. H.S. days during the ’50’s, the first thing that comes to my mind is how the hell was hiding underneath my desk going to protect me from a nuclear attack!
Would you rather eb trampled first, or die with dignity?
HIding under desks, as a recent little girl moving from Ore to CA, was a weird thing. I never knew why we were doing ‘bendover, cover your neck’ thing.
No one in ORE ever mentioned this new game.
are banks in panic vs manic mode ??
What the accountant is saying is true…I have been told that by several lenders already…Its Arbitrary but it is still happening…
“Even if you don’t have a bad loan, you’re upside down on your equity. If you are $50,000 underwater, you could ride that out. But when you’re $180,000 upside down, you’re not going to see that come back in your lifetime,’ said Donna Steward, a real estate agent in San Marcos.”
Wow. Did a realtor just admit we’d never see bubble prices again in our lifetime??
The walkaways are just going to be huge once the sheeple accept their “lost equity” isn’t coming back EVER. Even the SF Chronicle went on record as saying paying your mortgage was the ethical thing to do, but walking away was the financially smart thing to do.
Wow is right.
We’ve been talking about buying when everyone says real estate is the worst investment… We’re not there yet…
But seeing a Realtor ™ point out that a paltry $180k loss cannot be made up in a lifetime… priceless. Yes, Paltry. Some of my coworkers are $300k underwater today. One is about $700k underwater (multiple properties).
Got Popcorn?
Neil
not see 180K come back in “your” lifetime? That’s a stretch.
180K is nothing on a 1.5M property, and a “lifetime” could be 50 years from now.
but it’s nice to see a little panic seeping into the RE agents’ psyche..
Using inflation-adjusted numbers, I agree that summer 2005 prices for American residential real estate never again will be reached in our lifetimes. Credit will be tighter, well-paying jobs will be more scarce, and, most importantly, energy will be dearer. Reading the Las Vegas troll’s comments were amusing: unless we can run it on alternative energy, Las Vegas is going to dry up and blow away and there’s not a thing God, politicians, developers, realtors, or anyone else can do about it. I fully expect values to fall 90% over the next twenty to thirty years.
“While just a few years ago, some buyers were eager to get as much house as they could afford, now they have grown more cautious. Many buyers are more willing to trade square footage and fancy upgrades for a lower, more comfortable mortgage.”
Well, that and banks are NOW requiring 20% down, verified incomes and 28% of total debt for the mortgage…
Ethical shmethical. The bank sold you a way overpriced thing. You’re returning it. Thank you and come again. The bank broke the pact that heretofore kept cash-crazed Americans from buying more than they can afford.
Exquisite fun to watch Zillow as things around me go from heady (and lots of entertaining and wine) to underwater and domestic brew and contemplative solitude. Even though i know, somehow someday, i will be the one to pay. Oh well i like domestic brew. And quiet.
Is it true that you never own title on a home that you’ve paid off? Just curious.
We just don’t know; no one’s ever done it…
eh? Do you mean that since the govt taxes property, and if you don’t pay the tax they can take it away, then no.. you never actually “own” property. You rent it. Govt is always the landlord.
Govt has the guns. So they own your property. No matter how upstanding a citizen you might be.
And Govt can steal your paid-up, tax-paid home whenever it wants to for the “greater good.” We’re going to see lots of eminent domain transactions during the next five years. Govts near and far will knock down homes, swipe the land, keep it, and then tax the hell out of those still living in the area.
Moral: Don’t ever sink your entire wad (not even a significant portion of it) into real estate unless real estate investing IS your business. Otherwise, you’ll forever be a govt puppet.
I paid off my San Jose home in around 2004. I had clear title after that, and a property tax bill based on the purchase price back in 1981. My last year I paid about $2K in property tax, so yes I did own it.
I sold it in May 2006 and moved out of state. Best decision I ever made. I left town with a big bag of cash. My former home is now in foreclosure and will doubtless sell for half of what I got.
In North America, and many other places in the world, you do not actually own what you think you do. This includes your real property - your home.”
http://www.stockhouse.com/Bullboards/MessageDetail.aspx?s=HGU&t=LIST&m=23673965&l=0&pd=0&r=0
Please tell me this ain’t so……
This is where I started with this issue. Thanks for your comments.
In North America, and many other places in the world, you do not actually own what you think you do. This includes your real property - your home.”
http://www.stockhouse.com/Bullboards/MessageDetail.aspx?s=HGU&t=LIST&m=23673965&l=0&pd=0&r=0
Please tell me this ain’t so……
Thanks for your comments.
moved out of state ??
Where did you go ??
“‘If anything I’m sort of a downtown booster,’ said local real estate analyst Gary London. ‘But let’s face it: the cycle is over.’”
Wow, he actually admits he is a liar! He has been a booster, not a real estate analyst. I hope the people who took his advice file a class action lawsuit.
If we have quote depository for this debacle this should straight to the top.