September 10, 2008

Anywhere Else Besides Florida

The Wall Street Journal reports on Florida. “During the housing boom, Florida attracted hordes of speculators. By some estimates, more than half of all the deposits for Miami condos were put down by people planning to flip them for a profit without living in them, says Jack McCabe, CEO of McCabe Research & Consulting in Deerfield Beach, Fla. But developers built far more condos than demand could absorb. The glutted Miami market now has close to 50,000 units — a record four years’ worth of inventory — for sale or under construction.”

“Faced with such sobering prospects, many buyers no longer want to close on their properties, as they risk steep losses when they try to sell. In some buildings, as many of 30% of condo buyers are turning to the courts in an effort to cancel their contracts. If unsuccessful, they have to either go ahead and close on a unit they no longer want or walk away and lose their deposits.”

“Dora and Umberto Arena, of Hollywood, Fla., are among the thousands of investors who are looking to the courts for relief. When the Arenas bought their deluxe $595,000 condo in Hallandale Beach, developers urged them to move quickly to put down their $120,000 deposit. The planned 283 units at the Ocean Marine Yacht Club in Hallandale Beach sold out in only three weeks when they were offered to the public three years ago.”

“‘We saw this beautiful 48-slip marina in their brochures, and it sounded wonderful to have a place for a boat and to live in that brand new building,’ says Ms. Arena.”

“Despite the name, the Ocean Marine Yacht Club has no marina, as the developer was unable to secure the necessary permits. ‘We were inundated with literature touting it as a marquee feature of the complex while the developer was failing to disclose it didn’t have the necessary permits or approvals,’ Ms. Arena says.”

“Ironically, the growing number of lawsuits may actually make the problem worse. A high rate of units contested in court makes buyers nervous about closing and moving into a half-empty complex, which further depresses the market, says Mr. McCabe. That, in turn, will give buyers more incentive to sue.”

“‘Real-estate lawyers nationally are closely monitoring the Florida lawsuits, expecting a wave of similar claims across the country as more condominium projects are completed.”

“‘The market in Florida is two years ahead of other parts of the U.S., like California or the Sunbelt states, in both the heavy downturn in prices and the lawsuits following it,’ says attorney Robert M. Chasnow.”

The Palm Beach Post. “The government takeover of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac sent stocks soaring Monday, but the bailout is unlikely to do the same for home prices, real estate experts say. Pessimistic observers see little connection between Sunday’s move and home prices in Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast.”

“It doesn’t make homes significantly more affordable, and it doesn’t hold back the flood of foreclosures in Florida.”

“‘The three key factors are still inventory, foreclosures and affordability,’ said Jack McCabe, a housing analyst. ‘We still have way too much inventory, way too many foreclosures and prices that are out of whack with incomes.’”

“Prices for ‘middle-management’ housing in Palm Beach County are well off over the past two years, according to Coldwell Banker’s annual Home Price Comparison Index.”

“The survey calculates the price of a 2,200-square-foot house with four bedrooms, two and a half bathrooms and a two-car garage. The typical such house in West Palm Beach costs $334,750, down from $507,750 in 2006, a decline of 34 percent.”

“In Boca Raton, the tab is $462,125, down from $623,750 in 2006, a 26 percent drop.”

From Florida Today. “Apartment tenants have become more difficult to find and keep as Brevard County landlords endure the faltering economy. ‘We have lost tenants because of the economy, and we haven’t been able to bring people in,’ said Roberta Altman, owner of the Pines in Indian Harbour Beach and several other rental properties in Brevard. ‘We have vacancies in some of our rentals that we never had before.’”

“‘We’ve had more people move out of the area due to job loss,’ Larry Berry, president of the Space Coast Apartment Association, said. ‘The construction trade industry here has pretty much stopped.’”

“One apartment complex in Palm Bay found it had to offer two months’ free rent and a gas card worth several hundred dollars to attract tenants. ‘That’s what it’s starting to take. That made it more affordable for them,’ said Jackie Collins, business manager for Woodlake Village Apartments.”

“With 462 units, it is the largest complex in Brevard, said Collins, who added that there has been a ’substantial’ increase in tenants breaking their leases. To stem the tide, rental prices were lowered, even for present tenants.”

“‘You have to take care of the business you have,’ Collins said. ‘You have to do the same for them.’”

The Orlando Sentinel. “With the high-rise cranes gone from downtown Orlando’s skyline and the region’s home builders still in a funk, the outlook for construction jobs in Central Florida is bleaker than it has been in many years.”

“Commercial projects have absorbed some of the jobs lost by the slump in residential work, but the market for offices and warehouses has also weakened. Construction employment in Metro Orlando, after peaking at 87,800 in June 2006, has shrunk by nearly 15,000 jobs, a drop of almost 17 percent.”

“‘The slowdown has finally reached commercial,’ said Todd Andrew, founder and president of Andrew General Contractors Inc. in Orlando. He recently laid off about half his staff, and the number of subcontract workers on his job sites has dropped by 50 percent, too. His company lost several major projects recently when the customers’ financing fell through.”

“‘I’m just scraping by, doing what I can,’ said Steve Oakley of Orlando.”

“A professional framer for more than 12 years, Oakley’s construction career ‘went down the tubes,’ he said, when the region’s home builders slammed on the brakes more than a year ago. For now, he’s helping a friend paint apartments for $12 an hour, but he really needs to make $18 to $25 an hour for financial stability.”

“‘I’ll do anything to make ends meet, as long as it’s legal,’ Oakley said.”

The Naples News. “As the year comes to a close, the outlook for employment in the Fort Myers-Naples market is expected to be one of the worst in the nation. Locally, only 10 percent of companies plan to hire more employees while 43 percent expect to reduce their payrolls. Another 47 percent will keep their staff the same size, according to the survey. That means there is a negative employment outlook of minus-33 percent.”

“In Lee County, the unemployment rate rose to 8.4 percent in July, up from 7.6 percent in June and 5.1 percent last year.”

“‘Clearly we are in a recession. It’s going to deepen I suspect before it gets better,’ said Michael Reagen, president of the Greater Naples Chamber of Commerce.”

The Herald Tribune. “In a year marked by a 50 percent jump in unemployment and a record number of foreclosures, the economy and jobs were the top worry of 22 percent of county residents questioned in a survey taken in July and August for the county.”

“Last year, the economy was hardly a blip in the annual county survey, ranked as a top concern by 4 percent. Five times as many people cited the economy and jobs as a concern this year.”

“The findings contrast with the boom years, when the county’s annual survey found the biggest local worries had to do with handling all the prosperity. Growth, traffic and affordable housing were the top concerns between 2002 and 2006.”

“‘You could have taken a poll just about anywhere in Florida and you’d find the same thing,’ said Susan MacManus, a University of South Florida political scientist who conducted the survey.”

“Ninety percent of those considering a move say they would move out of the state. Those considering a move were asked what could change their minds. The most common answer was ‘nothing,’ which was given by 29 percent.”

“The verbatim responses of those who said they were leaving Sarasota County went from the aesthetic ‘Miss the seasons,’ to the practical ‘it will be easier to be where our children are,’ to the economic ‘My wife lost her job,’ and the irritated ‘The government is a mess.’”

“For several people, the Sunshine State had lost its luster. ‘Anywhere else besides Florida’ and the ungrammatical ‘I’m just fed up with state’ were among the renderings of quotes taken by the surveyors.”

“Osprey resident Kenny Hochstetler said he considered leaving when gas prices and insurance rates began going up. The idea was to move to a cheaper area, but Hochstetler realized he could not sell his home in the poor real estate market. ‘I don’t think I’m going anywhere for a while though,’ he added.”

The News Press. “Lee County is drowning in more than 22,000 open foreclosure cases while the county is forced to send to the state surplus dollars from the fees assessed to process the foreclosures.”

“Clerk of Courts Charlie Green is fed up and is ready to withhold $200,000 to $300,000 from foreclosure and other court fees his office collects to clear the backlog, rather than feed state coffers.”

“‘If we can do it and there is no other way, then I have no choice but to withhold funds to get these cases adjudicated,’ Green said. ‘What are they going to do, cut my eyes out? Beat me to death?’”

The Tampa Tribune. “In the heart of Apollo Beach, hidden by swaths of vacant land, is a scene reminiscent of the boom years. In the midst of the worst housing downturn since the Great Depression, one company is moving forward with plans to develop 6,400 homesites in a 2,350-acre master-planned community.”

“The developer, San Diego-based Newland Communities, hopes Waterset will kick-start the local real estate market. And it’s betting the troubled market will be ready before the planned grand opening next fall.”

“Even Newland executives admit their optimistic plans are somewhat risky in a saturated housing market. Other developers have put plans on hold or have scaled back dramatically. Some builders face foreclosure on their land and are selling at fire-sale prices. Across the Tampa Bay area, there are shells of subdivisions that started during better times and have stalled.”

“‘Other builders and developers may look at us and say, ‘They’re crazy,’ said Pam Parisi, regional marketing director for Newland. ‘But we have a real passion for this. We want to be ready to pull the trigger when the market comes back.’”

“There are more than 31,000 vacant lots scattered throughout the area, according to housing research firm Metrostudy. That’s on top of 2,982 empty homes that builders have been unable to sell. Homes are selling so slowly that Metrostudy estimates it could take more than five years for builders to work off all the inventory of finished homes and lots.”

“Jack McCabe follows the state’s housing market and said Waterset is unique, aggressive and risky. ‘How do we keep adding on to an oversaturated marketplace?’ McCabe said. ‘Some developers think that when others fail, that’s when they’ll succeed. But this is a move that comes with a heightened degree of risk during these very uncertain times.’”




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117 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-09-10 07:32:43

‘How do we keep adding on to an oversaturated marketplace?’

Because prices are still high enough to be an incentive for builders to continue. Only when they can no longer make development profitable will they stop.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 07:37:36

How come people can’t understand this basic point straight out of Econ 101?

It’s the inventory, stupid!

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 07:57:49

I got a C in my econ class in undergrad. Even I understand the basic point.

Funny thing is in my world economics class working on my MBA I got an A…

Comment by kidbuck
2008-09-11 01:16:13

It’s called grade inflation :)

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Comment by cougar91
2008-09-10 08:35:32

Or it could be that these folks made all these financing commitments, contractual agreements and enormous down payments 2-3 years ago and don’t want to “lose” the money by backing out now. Of course they will likely lose all of them and then some once they complete their projects as their wishful rebound does not occur.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:21:33

I believe it’s called throwing good money after bad.

 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-09-10 12:13:20

In some cases, it may make sense for them to build even when they know it will end badly.

For example, if they already have the loans committed to, then they can draw on it pro-rated to the degree of completion, and use that to fund operations while they hope and pray for a turn-around.

Net result: they build houses that will eventually just get turned over to the banks. But they keep the doors open and the cash flowing for another year by doing so.

Comment by climber
2008-09-10 12:40:33

That’s the beauty of the LLC. The management keeps their salary no matter how badly the investors and lenders get hosed.

I think that Raines gave back a little of his loot, but only because his hirelings committed fraud. If you don’t lie about how badly the company is performing as you run it into the ground you’re set.

 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-09-10 12:33:19

yeap, as I have said before, but bears repeating, I and others that have built their own house by sub-contracting all the work and not using a builder, know the true cost of building a house: $50 sq/ft under roof +- $5 if you want to add marble to bathroom and granite countertops and a jacuzzi, some have come in as low as $47 for a WELL built house.
These numbers were last years, I suspect that you can take at least a couple of bucks. Oh, this those not include land but those include impact fees, hookups….

Comment by pt_barnum_bank
2008-09-10 13:08:57

Am curious what part of the country is this? I’m thinking about building a small cottage in WI and always wondered what the cost per sq ft is if you hire out the job yourself.

Comment by Muir
2008-09-10 19:00:12

Fl
It’s much cheaper in some other States, say Georgia, Alabama.
This is not for the faint of heart.
I just posted it to give building costs.

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Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-09-10 12:55:26

Ben; I think you can add to that; builders will keep on building as long as banks keep on financing them….It’s building to the point, that they will all go down together in one big splash….
What’s that saying that John Templeton used to say???? Buy when there is blood running in the streets!!!

 
 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 07:34:21

Despite the name, the Ocean Marine Yacht Club has no marina.

I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I just can’t help myself.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 07:51:44

Quite ironic isn’t it? My guess is they’ll be able to get out of the contract as a result.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-09-10 08:14:07

Out of the contract maybe. Their money back? Probably not, those $$ have already been spend.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 08:20:35

Econ 102 homework: Explain in hundred words or less, how to get money back from a bankrupt LLC?

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

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Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-09-10 08:53:21

Econ 102 homework: Explain in hundred words or less, how to get money back from a bankrupt LLC?

Fraud and theft.

 
Comment by denquiry
2008-09-10 15:51:28

Econ 102 homework: Explain in hundred words or less, how to get money back from a bankrupt LLC?
——————————————————–
shoot the crooks. no money back but a ton of satisfaction that you will be the last investor they rip off.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-09-10 07:52:45

That is pretty funny.

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 08:19:57

Faster Pussycat,

Is this the reason virtually ALL of us that click on a web-site for some new development or “project” and they have this “artist’s conception” presentation instantly become nauseous?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 08:23:37

The real problem is that you clicked on the website in the first place. ;-)

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Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 08:31:09

Faster,

Oh I agree! That’s probably what these poor schmucks did back three years ago! ( And they made it look so wonderful and everything..? )

Here locally ( Salem, OR ) we were shown… “artist’s concept” of a new development pending approval and of course they show scores of town/multi-family homes, playground, green spaces and even bar-b-que pits ( NONE of which has matrerialized mind you ) Just SFH and a mosquito infested “lake”. Wow, surprise.

 
 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:24:53

I think Photoshop is about 80% responsible for this bubble. All of those old-school artist’s renderings just can’t compete with photorealism. These schmucks saw a marina in the doctored photo, dammit, a marina!

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 10:30:25

Could someone please remind me of where the “marina” tool is in Photoshop? I’ve looked all through the Adobe online help and can’t find any reference to it.

 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:54:47

It’s a special plug-in which you will then find under:
Filter; Render; Marina.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 11:08:23

Yeah but can it make the light reflect off the rippling water in wave after wave with warmth and inviting ambience?

Sign Here_______

Deposit_______

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2008-09-10 11:33:06

I guess nobody can buy into a new home or condo development until it’s all completed these days .

Borrowers didn’t know they were going on adjustable loans ,buyers didn’t know that the pictures were a lie and didn’t even ask or look at the disclaimer that anything is subject to
change that is being offered . Borrowers didn’t know that real estate doesn’t always go up ,and borrowers didn’t know that
when you buy a house that won’t be done for two years ,the market might change and you might need to protect yourself .

Buyers didn’t know that they can’t buy a house for 500k when they only make 22 thousand a year . Buyers didn’t know that teaser rates would only last for a short time .
Buyers didn’t know that mortgages have to be paid ,and buyers didn’t know that you can’t always refinance .

Builders didn’t know that they contracted with a bunch of speculator flippers and their loan agents, absent easy money conditions, couldn’t get them a nickle.

Builders didn’t know that they wouldn’t have money for their
advertising hype ,and the lenders didn’t know they should control construction loan releases .

And most important, buyers didn’t know that greater fools would run out ,and the same with the builders .

 
Comment by reuven
2008-09-10 12:41:24

Sure they can keep buying on the basis of a Photoshopped brochure and a get-rich-quick dream! After all, there’s no risk. Us taxpayers will be more than happy to bail them out if it doesn’t work out.

 
 
 
 
Comment by denquiry
2008-09-10 15:35:41

IMO, it’s the Ocean Marine (ENEMA) Yacht Club. They like floating boats up one’s *ss.

 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-09-10 07:38:50

“‘The market in Florida is two years ahead of other parts of the U.S., like California or the Sunbelt states, in both the heavy downturn in prices and the lawsuits following it,’ says attorney Robert M. Chasnow.”

The lawsuits should be interesting, and not something we’ve covered much on this blog. How much will these add to the negative effect on GDP and “recovery”?

BTW, any part of the country has the potential to be the “new” Florida, if the economy takes a big enough downturn. Florida is the new Michigan.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 07:55:38

“BTW, any part of the country has the potential to be the “new” Florida, if the economy takes a big enough downturn. Florida is the new Michigan.”

Florida has always had all of their eggs in one basket. The construction business and real estate business were an entirely different basket from the tourism basket. Once we filter out the idiots who moved here to get rich quick, the economy in Florida will be fine. If and only if the tourism basket were to run dry would we have the problems Michigan has.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 08:25:34

Tourism basket depends on disposable income which there was little of until the HELOC came along.

As goes the HELOC, so goes the tourism basket.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-09-10 08:35:27

Plus tourism jobs pay menial wages. Just ask any guy/gal wearing a Disney nametag.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-10 09:28:41

Worse. They have migrant workers at barely survivable wages.

They migrate to Bar Harbor, ME or Providence, RI during summer, and then back down to FL or AZ during the winter.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 10:05:34

Tourism jobs do pay menial wages which used to buy a small home in a working class neighborhood. We’ll return to that soon.

 
 
 
Comment by mikey
2008-09-10 08:35:34

California and Florida have always peddled and promoted the wonderful myths of carefree girls in bikini’s, everyone playing in the surf and “Endless Summers in the Sun for retirees.

The pretty girl is swimming alone at night, mikey turns up the “Jaws” music and waits…for the dark montser REALITY SHARK to BITE!
:)

Comment by cougar91
2008-09-10 09:50:36

> The pretty girl is swimming alone at night, mikey turns up the “Jaws” music

If there is a pretty girl swimming lone and there is a shark out there, I may still be tempted to swim out to meet her. :-D Chance of hook-up > chance of shark bite.

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Comment by denquiry
2008-09-10 15:39:03

:-D Chance of hook-up > chance of shark bite.
————————————————————–
Dream on dude.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-09-10 12:11:00

California and Florida have always peddled and promoted the wonderful myths of carefree girls in bikini’s, everyone playing in the surf and “Endless Summers in the Sun for retirees.

There is a line in the “Karate Kid” that always cracks me up. When Daniel and his mom arrive in Cali from New Jersey she exclaims: “Everyone is blond!”

I always wonder what parallel universe her California was in? Even back when the movie was made her statement was a stereotype at best. IIRC, every kid at the bad boy dojo was blond.

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Comment by smathis
2008-09-12 03:29:04

I always wondered why a single mom, a waitress, struggling financially, decided why the solution to her problems was moving her and her kid out to Southern California.

The only thing dumber would’ve been if they’d moved to Hawaii.

 
 
 
Comment by Carlos Cisco
2008-09-10 17:30:07

Remember all those tourists from Michigan and Ohio? They’ve planned their staycation this year already. Next year’s budget will get them as far south as Cedar Point, Ohio; that is , if Obamma wins and they all get that 1K bribe for voting for him. Keep hoping. We need positive thinkers in this downdraft.

 
 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-09-10 09:01:13

Florida is the new Michigan.

Much worse than Michigan!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 09:22:59

At least Michigan has courteous people with a work ethic.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 10:03:08

No Slim, Michigan USED to have courteous people with a work ethic. Those who are left are bitter and angry.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 10:13:17

I don’t notice that when I visit there.

OTOH, if you want to meet bitter, angry people, come to the Southwest. Yeesh, some of them seem to have taken charm lessons from rattlesnakes.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 10:27:02

Angry and bitter seems to be it around FL as well. Either the cranky has worn off from the older folks to the younger folks, or homeowners (renters from the bank) realize just how screwed they are.

 
Comment by cougar91
2008-09-10 16:48:10

So the cling to their guns & religion as a result? Obama was right after all.

Not.

 
 
 
 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:28:13

At least Florida will never be Michigan in the sense of, “Daddy, please let us go to Detroit this summer!”

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 11:13:04

I love Detroit! When I begin feeling a little too safe, I take a flight to DTW and take a drive down I-94. Then that feeling passes.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-09-10 07:40:25

“‘Other builders and developers may look at us and say, ‘They’re crazy,’ said Pam Parisi, regional marketing director for Newland. ‘But we have a real passion for this. We want to be ready to pull the trigger when the market comes back.’”

You guys may not be crazy as in lunatic sense of the word, but you clearly are not paying attention. The housing market is NOT going to come roaring back anytime soon. When it does bottom it will remain flat for a long time to come. Gone are the days you are dreaming of returning to. So go ahead and build 6,400 homes… That’s going to sting a little.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-09-10 08:16:54

Those clowns are long out of business when the market “comes back”. The thing you want to do now is maybe to acquire some decent land for pennies on the dollar. 10 years from now that investment might pay off.

Comment by wmbz
2008-09-10 08:34:28

“10 years from now that investment might pay off”.

You may well be right.

I still don’t get why so many people believe that the past insanity in the housing market is going to return.

To Quote James Kunstler…
The housing market is not coming back. Ever. In the form that we knew it. The suburban project is over. That version of the American Dream is over. We’ll be a lot better off if we put aside dreaming altogether for a while and start focusing on reality instead — that part of the day when we’re awake and capable of actually doing things. We’ve got a lot to face and a lot to do.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 08:35:24

Mike,

More importantly, any investment horizon of a decade or more just looks more ridiculous to me every day. Be it as an owner, developer or lender, 10 years from now I’ll be almost 60! I’ll be in an entirely different stage of my life.

What’s the liklihood that infestment would be suitable for me ‘that’ far down the road? Just ridiculous.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2008-09-10 08:47:44

Waterset is unique ??

Why ??

Comment by snake charmer
2008-09-10 10:34:55

Much like luxury, uniqueness has been divorced from real life and converted into a marketing banality. I keep waiting for homebuilders to start flying gigantic American flags outside their subdivisions, much like Ford and GM dealerships do, as if making an unfortunate and impoverishing real estate purchase for someone else’s benefit was my patriotic duty.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-09-10 12:13:29

The local Nissan/Kia dealership does the flag thing as well.

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Comment by Homoaner
2008-09-15 11:05:21

Car dealerships do the flag thing to get around local laws restricting the number and size of advertising signs. The city I live in has probably the state’s largest ‘auto row’ and this is a common gambit. If the city screams about all the flags, the dealership plays the patriotism card and gets the citizens on its side. The city has thus given up on trying to include flags in its sign and advertising regulations.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Les Pendens
2008-09-10 09:07:54

In the heart of Apollo Beach, hidden by swaths of vacant land, is a scene reminiscent of the boom years. In the midst of the worst housing downturn since the Great Depression, one company is moving forward with plans to develop 6,400 homesites in a 2,350-acre master-planned community.”

NEWSFLASH FROM A CENTRAL FLORIDA RESIDENT:

Apollo Beach has no “heart”; and up until recently, nobody in their right mind would want to live next to the fume-belching smokestacks that dot this little bit of “pair-o-dice” nestled near the industrial Port Of Tampa.

This development will be a HUGE BUST and I guarantee it.

The sights AND smells around that area are downright awful.

Sorry sheeple, but Apollo Beach was never planned out to be a place to build houses and live in them.

..

Comment by milkcrate
2008-09-10 09:27:51

Les:
You nailed it. Building homes in the shadow of an electric plant never did seem to make sense. Apollo Beach used to have a Christmas boat parade. The economy might sink that, too.

 
Comment by palmetto
2008-09-10 10:35:44

I am renting in Apollo Beach right now (ashamed to admit it), but actually preparing to get out of Dodge here. This area is complete toast.

HERE’S THE MAJOR NEWS FLASH OF THE DAY:

THE TAMPA BAY AREA NOW EXCEEDS LOS ANGELES IN GROWTH OF GANGS. YESSIR, WE’RE NUMBER 1 WITH A BULLET.

They had a news conference on the TeeVee about it last night. The Attorney General of Florida is putting together a “task force”. LMAO! Yeah, that oughta solve it, a “task force”. Too bad they couldn’t solve it before those two girls got raped by the illegal immigrant members of “the new gang taking over Apollo Beach”.

Comment by stewie
2008-09-10 14:45:17

I hope that “task force” is armed by the US military. They may just need it.

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Comment by Housing Wizard
2008-09-10 11:41:55

I just want to know the name of the Bank that is giving the construction loans on this project and make sure I don’t have my money in that Bank . Oh ,I forgot ,the government will probably loan them the money ,heck,now I have no choice .

Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-09-11 06:36:42

I don’t know, but, I just read that Charlotte, NC based Banco Amercianos, is 50% under water on their peso loans to Gringo construction companies…Just maybe, Mexico can lend them some money to keep all the Mexicans working up here….

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Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-09-10 14:24:38

“There are more than 31,000 vacant lots scattered throughout the area, according to housing research firm Metrostudy. That’s on top of 2,982 empty homes that builders have been unable to sell.

And just think, only 2 years ago, Realtors were telling us that there was a “shortage of housing” and that “Florida was running out of land”.

The same stories went around in 1926, just before the Florida Real Estate CRash.

Never trust an agent.

 
 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:29:57

“We want to be ready to pull the trigger when the market comes back.”

And the gun is pointed at . . . your head?

 
 
Comment by Leighsong
2008-09-10 07:47:40

“‘The three key factors are still inventory, foreclosures and affordability,’ said Jack McCabe, a housing analyst. ‘We still have way too much inventory, way too many foreclosures and prices that are out of whack with incomes.’”

Standing ovation!!

Leigh ;)

Comment by incredulous
2008-09-10 10:03:44

How did this guy slip into an MSM article? Blog site maybe, but a newspaper article??

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 10:34:36

He must be one of us.

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-09-10 14:50:05

He must be one of us.

He is one of us as he understands the housing market, not the hype.

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Comment by MikeG
2008-09-10 08:04:37

Florida markets, other than very high end unique properties, have another 25-30% to fall before slow improvement in liquidity and prices takes hold. How long that takes depends on the staying power of owners/investors, credit availability and wild cards such as major storms.
A decade from now countless babyboomers will need those warm winters and the lucky ones will have snagged their retirement homes at vast reductions over the prices paid in 2003-7.
Our neighbors here in Ann Arbor own investment condos in Naples and Lauderdale and candidly admit they would love to unload all even at 40-50% discounts on the purchase prices- but can’t stand to auction the units off.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 09:21:49

I predict that a lot of the baby boom crowd will stay put. Reason: They are much more involved in the lives of their kids and grandkids than their parents or grandparents were. So, it makes sense to remain close to where the descendants are.

As for Florida, it can always be the place to go for a nice winter holiday. That’s what people did when I was growing up in PA and MI.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-09-10 09:47:47

I think they will stay put too, but for a different reason: energy scarcity and a sharply-declining standard of living that will force families to stick together for support. The whole snowbirding phenomenon, at least as a mass popular experience, is going to cease to exist.

I also see a glut of unoccupied houses and condos persisting indefinitely. Not good news for the “passionate” builder who wants to put up a new potemkin village of McMansions in Apollo Beach. Enough already.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:36:22

I think they will stay put too, but for yet a different reason: they can’t sell their overpriced crapshack in PA or NY.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 12:08:22

I enjoyed this whole exchange because it really cuts to the chase about the future for RE in America. Personally, I have no idea what will happen but I tend to think that whatever happens… most won’t be able to maintain BOTH residences!

Just simple economics. With mounting energy ( and tax ) bills mounting on either side of the Mason-Dixon Line it won’t be feasible. What I find absolutely… befuddling about the whole thing is how a “cheap” retirement in FL became such an ordeal? Oh and how having a single-wide in a senior trailer park morphed into a 3,000 sq. ft. palace?

 
 
 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-09-10 09:30:23

“A decade from now countless babyboomers will need those warm winters”

I wouldn’t bet on this. FL real estate speculators have always asserted that retirees cannot possibly want to live anywhere else. Many people have retired happily and cheaply without moving to FL or even the sunbelt.

I think the driving force for where retirees will settle down will be financial, with family and health concerns taking second and third place. Also, many people will not be able to tolerate the miserable humidity of Florida summers and the hurricanes, especially if global warming predictions come to pass.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-09-10 10:24:56

Another factor (that often isn’t considered) is how people’s needs change over time.

For example, Mary and Mike Michigander may move to Florida after they retire. For a few years, they have a marvelous time playing golf and tennis, entertaining family and friends from Up North, and just plain enjoying themselves in the sun.

Then Mike dies.

And Mary is left by herself in a big empty house to fend for herself. Mary becomes terribly lonely, starts having a variety of health problems, and the family starts to worry.

So, she sells out for whatever price she can get and goes back to Bloomfield Hills, Michigan to live with her oldest son and his family.

The move does Mary a world of good. Her spirits perk up, and she and the family thrive in ways that they never have before.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:39:31

That’s exactly what my Grandma did; she and Grandpa moved to FL for retirement and he passed away in his 80’s; she went back to NJ to live near her daughters for the last 15 years of her life. Although I would guess she was the exception to the rule.

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Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-09-11 06:43:14

The auction houses down in Florida are “”LOADED”" with old peoples crap….antiques, their called….You can buy anything you want at one of those auctions, except food, and guns….

 
 
Comment by Doghouse Riley
2008-09-10 14:08:41

I’ve seen this process play out at several Florida “adult” condos.

Condo opens and fills up with 60-70 year olds who love to swim, dance, play tennis and golf, etc etc.

Fifteen years later the building is now filled with octogenarians. The pool is increasingly disused and eventually the condo board votes to close it and fill it in. Ditto the tennis courts. And the rec building which used to be filled with couples dancing is now lined with wheelchairs and walkers.

When these units do come on the market, who’d want to buy one??

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Comment by smathis
2008-09-10 11:01:18

I’m curious as to HOW the baby boomers are going to be able to afford to fully retire, much less be able to buy multiple homes for said retirement.

The US personal savings rate has been in negative numbers for…two years now? And every informal poll of baby boomers I’ve seen, a huge (like 80%) proportion of them claim they’ll “never be able to retire.”

How do these facts jibe with the oft-heard promise that the baby boomers will soon be retiring en masse and buying up condos, jet-skis, yachts, world cruises, etc.?

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 11:15:50

smathis,

They don’t. According to the GAO the avg. size 401k is $29,000. Not exactly what I’d call a posh retirement huh?

This is just another sales tool that managers use to motivate the troops into believing there really is a Fabled Golden Temple of Boomer Wealth just waiting to be found! Uh… I’ve searched more than Coronado and Columbus combined and when I find it, I’ll let you know.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 08:16:52

“What are they going to do, cut my eyes out? Beat me to death?”

Is that an offer? Is that a threat? YOU sir are in violation of FL law. Forward the $’s to the capitol and deal with it. It’s not your place to circumvent the will of the voters and higher authorities will deal with the fall out! Don’t worry ( you’ll get your paycheck either way )

Is this how things work in FL ( or anywhere for that matter? ) People at the freaking county level of gov’t making decisions of their own accord and not worrying in the slightest about the repurcussions?

Comment by Jon
2008-09-10 09:43:52

I work at the freakin county level of gov’t in FL and the answer is absolutely yes.

It’s all politics. Nobody from the State is going to step into the County and tell the locals that they can’t do their job and they’re taking local taxpayer dollars away. Not gonna happen, not in a Republican state.

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 09:55:10

Jon,

LOL! You know though to be truthful, it depends on that “all critical” life threatening emergency. Here in OR we’ve had the city of p and all kinds of little “insurrections” almost on a daily basis?

(Btw OR is as Blue as it gets ) but I get your point!

Comment by Jon Kap
2008-09-10 13:24:18

Oregon is almost a 50-50 state. It is not “as blue as it gets”.

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Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-09-10 08:51:00

“There are more than 31,000 vacant lots scattered throughout the area, according to housing research firm Metrostudy. That’s on top of 2,982 empty homes that builders have been unable to sell.

The above only mentions a fraction of the problem. There is a large number of unsold homes in MLS for Hillsborough county (Tampa) and the other Tampa Bay counties. There are thousands of homes that were bought to flip but did not sell and are now being rented for less than the monthly payments. Add in the foreclosures and forsalebyowner and you have the perfect recipe for a continued housing disaster in the Tampa Bay area.

The main reason most properties are not selling is the lack of jobs that pay the income needed for the cost of most properties. It all boils down to affordability!

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 11:11:21

Don’t worry…a McMansion will be available on a McSalary pretty soon.

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-09-10 14:54:28

That was very funny Bad Andy!

 
 
 
Comment by ress
2008-09-10 09:40:02

Ahh.., the sweet sounds of the Jack McCabe story hour. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside. If Jack gets paid for every quote he gives to these articles, he can retire soon.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 09:51:15

Jack was telling people that single families were a fine investment in 2005. Great advice Jack!

 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-09-10 10:19:44

This is the farmer sowing his corn,
That kept the cock that crowed in the morn,
That waked the priest all shaven and shorn,
That married the man all tattered and torn,
That kissed the maiden all forlorn,
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn,
That tossed the dog,
That worried the cat,
That killed the rat,
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-09-10 09:44:18

“‘The market in Florida is two years ahead of other parts of the U.S., like California or the Sunbelt states, in both the heavy downturn in prices and the lawsuits following it,’ says attorney Robert M. Chasnow.”

I expect Florida to show the rest of the country what happens when the rule of law breaks down…

Comment by palmetto
2008-09-10 10:41:53

Especially Tampa Bay and most especially, Southern Hillsborough County. Sheriff David Gee has already gone on record how close this area is to anarchy. Seems like half the population of the Sierra Madre has moved here. Getting very scary.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-09-10 10:00:03

“The glutted Miami market now has close to 50,000 units — a record four years’ worth of inventory — for sale or under construction.”

So Miami sells more than 1,000 condos per month?? Wow.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 10:16:58

“So Miami sells more than 1,000 condos per month?? Wow.”

I don’t know how accurate that is, but I do know there seem to be more suckers than average in Miami. A lot of Europeans have bought the paradise lie.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-09-10 10:42:43

I think when the suckers had access to stupid money; yes. Now, I’m not so sure.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 11:02:20

1,000 per month is a lot of condoze. Maybe I’m in the wrong profession if they’re selling that many.

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Comment by Lionel
2008-09-10 11:10:48

A Scottish friend of mine was telling me about his genius Florida real estate purchase a few years ago. I told him to sell immediately and get his ass out, but, being perhaps a tad arrogant and unwilling to listen to me, is still holding it now. He completely bought into the “everyone wants to retire to Florida” line.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 13:04:43

Tell your Scottish friend that I have a home that appraised for $379,000 in 2005 in Beautiful Palm Beach County that I’ll be happy to sell him RIGHT NOW for $250,000…cash only please.

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Comment by Flic
2008-09-10 13:49:34

395 condos sold in Miami in the month of July. Someone in the article is either fibbing, doesn’t have the correct numbers or is a moron. Could be a combo of all 3…..

 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-09-10 12:27:37

Good catch.
No they do not, even if you 2x those sold by Realtors.
http://media.living.net/statistics/statisticsfull.htm

 
 
Comment by dc_renter
2008-09-10 11:16:54

This site is becoming all about CA and Florida.

Comment by Houstonstan
2008-09-10 11:59:26

Uhm, this is a Florida thread at the moment.

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-09-10 12:37:25

We have the bigger idiot stories, Go California !, Go (Down) San Jose !

Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-09-10 12:50:31

People in flyover are still in denial, but both bottom left handed and right handed coasts are the toast of the most.

 
 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-09-10 11:33:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWa1uzhQQQI

Nouriel Roubini on Bloomberg TV - Fred & Fran BO- & Worst Financial Crisis since GD

 
Comment by Georgiagirl
2008-09-10 11:55:25

Palmetto, I am sad to hear what’s happening in Tampa and Florida. I was born in Tampa and raised in Fla. but now live in Georgia. I enjoy reading your posts, they are full of information. Sometimes I think about moving to Florida, but some other place than Tampa. Tampa has become very dangerous and with no jobs, low pay, the future doesn’t look good at all. Looks like Florida is in a depression.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-09-10 12:25:59

I for one like Lakeland. Calm, peaceful way of life there.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-09-10 14:14:33

When was the last time you paid a visit to Polk County? Things may have changed since then.

 
 
 
Comment by reuven
2008-09-10 12:38:50

n some buildings, as many of 30% of condo buyers are turning to the courts in an effort to cancel their contracts. If unsuccessful, they have to either go ahead and close on a unit they no longer want or walk away and lose their deposits.”

Outrageous! These people bought these things to get-rich-quick. If I, for example, bought options to buy Ford at 5 and the stock is at 4 when they’re about to expire, I can’t sue Ford!

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-09-10 13:50:26

Comparing it to an option is spot-on. These people bought calls on condos. It would be stupid to exercise an out-of-the-money call. And it’s “so sad” for those who bought expensive calls (big deposit), and a “lucky day” for those who bought inexpensive calls (small deposit).

But suing whoever wrote your expiring out-of-the-money call is ludicrous.

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-10 14:24:12

Right, had the condoze escalated in price would they have been sharing the profit with the developer?

And it’s not just condoze. An I/O loan is basically the same proposition. So that must mean every other home in Cali was purchased as an option?

 
 
 
Comment by Knife Magnet
2008-09-10 13:17:09

OT (or maybe not): Macaroni Grill to be sold

And I was told Macaroni Grill is closed.

According to the report, there are 26 Macaroni Grills in Florida, including seven in the Tampa Bay area.

Comment by intheknow
2008-09-10 15:31:50

Strangely enough I had lunch today at the Macaroni Grill at Dale Mabry & 275 in Tampa. So it wasn’t closed today, but it wasn’t remotely busy. Not even half full at the height of lunchtime.

 
 
Comment by Mississippi Realtor
2008-09-10 15:23:33

It is unfortunate that this happened. I have seen this happen around me in Florida a lot lately. They simply came looking to make money and spent money they didn’t have to do it. Always live within your means and this doesn’t become a problem.

 
Comment by Crusader
2008-09-10 16:48:37

I want to hear more about Tampa Bay gangs using vacant lots! Sounds sufficiently doomerish to me.

 
Comment by Rusty1014
2008-09-10 18:37:01

Here’s a little insight from an actual Baby Boomer. We bought a condo in Panama City Beach in 1992, thinking that we would get our feet in the door for retirement in 20 years. By 2005, when prices had gone crazy, and we were only using the place once or twice a year, we sold it, for three times our purchase price. Dumb luck. What we figured out is, that we can visit all we want, for less than the condo fees and the insurance costs. Who needs to own the place? I suspect many boomers now feel the same way. Although we were lucky, what we learned is that “ownership” has many hidden costs. Why pay $12,000 a year to “own” something that you can rent for $2,000/ month? I suspect that many of the retirees that Florida expected during the boom, will turn out to be visitors, for a month or two each year. The other thing is, that living in Florida, even on the coast, is much overrated.

 
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