Too Far, Too Fast
The Jackson Hole News & Guide reports from Wyoming. “‘Price reduced.’ ‘Must sell.’ These phrases are becoming almost as familiar in real-estate advertising as ‘Location, location, location.’ As sales volume slows - 77 single-family home sales in the first six months of 2008 versus 166 in 2007 - more properties are glutting the market, said, leaving roughly 80 percent more inventory than a year ago. Most sellers, accustomed to full-price offers, won’t sell for less if they’re not desperate, said David Viehman, owner of Jackson Hole Real Estate and Appraisal.”
“‘Locals can’t get over the fact that their property is not worth more than it was last year,’ Viehman said. ‘They won’t come off their price, and consequently they can’t buy their next property.’”
“The way Viehman calculates it, Teton County’s median single-family home price, excluding affordable housing, condos, townhouses and fractional ownerships, was $1.175 million as of July 1, 2007, and $1.2 million as of July 1, 2008, an increase of 2 percent in a year. In a market in which properties appreciated roughly 20 percent per year for many years in a row, a nominal increase can feel like a sharp slide.”
“‘Buyers are now recognizing that it is some sort of a buyer’s market,’ said Lenny Roehrkasse, senior VP of the real-estate department with The Jackson State Bank & Trust. ‘Unlike months and years in the past, there hasn’t been this urgency of ‘I need to make an offer by tomorrow or it might be gone.’”
“Brad Watsabaugh just listed his condo in the News&Guide classifieds as for sale by owner. He’s offering the property for $10,000 less than for what it was appraised. He’s asking $468,000 for the two-bedroom, one-bathroom, 900-square-foot condo.”
“‘I just need to get a quick sale,’ said Watsabaugh, who’s building another house. ‘I know there’s a lot of condos on the market right now.’”
“The old wisdom of not being rude by submitting a low offer is out the window, Viehman said. ‘Make an offer,’ is what we’re telling everybody now,’ Viehman said. ‘The owner is not going to be insulted, he will be excited he got an offer and will most likely counter.’”
The Missoulian from Montana. “Plum Creek Timber Co. announced the latest in a string of shift reductions Thursday, as a sluggish national real estate economy continues to reduce demand for wood products. ‘What happens in the national economy affects our business in Montana,’ said said Hank Ricklefs, VP for the company’s northern resources and manufacturing division. ‘News about the housing market continues to be gloomy, and these market conditions have a direct impact on demand for our wood products.’”
“And it could have been much worse in 2007, without a late-year sale of 100,000 acres in Wisconsin. Land sales, in fact, have propped up company profits in recent years, but now even that sector is struggling, and Plum Creek has recently pulled real estate listings rather than sell at today’s depressed prices.”
“With the exception of a large conservation deal to sell 320,000 acres into public ownership, ‘our land sales in Montana have come to a screeching halt,’ CEO Rick Holley said. After several years of red-hot real estate, he said, ‘we’re selling maybe a couple lots per month. It’s really slow.’”
“Both problems - the downturn in lumber demand and flagging real estate sales - can be traced to the same root cause, Holley said: ‘a flat housing market.’”
“‘This is a tough, tough market,’ said Holley. ‘I’m an optimist, and I can usually see a light in the darkness. But I look down that tunnel today, and it’s just black. I can’t see any light.’”
The Idaho Statesman. “According to the latest Intermountain MLS statistics, the inventory of available homes for sale in the area fell 9 percent in August, to 7,168 from 7,889 the previous month.”
“‘That’s going to be the key to turning this market around,’ said Shaun Tracy, associate realtor with Re/Max Capital City. ‘We have too much supply for the demand that exists. Until we can come into balance, we won’t start building any momentum.’”
“Others, however, continued to insist that the MLS numbers do not accurately reflect the actual number of homes for sale because they don’t include condominiums, townhomes, manufactured housing or trailer homes. When those numbers are factored in, the local inventory numbers swell to 8,468, said Heinrich Wiebe of Wiebe Modern Realty.”
“‘There are different ways to skin a cat, depending on how you want to slant things,’ Wiebe said.”
“According to the MLS, 657 homes sold in the Treasure Valley last month, a 23 percent decline from the comparable period a year ago. Ada County recorded 472 transactions, about 22 percent fewer than a year ago, while Canyon County’s 185 sales were off 11 percent from August 2007.”
The Bonner County Daily Bee from Idaho. “Less than two months after Spokane-based Sullivan Homes Inc. abruptly went out of business, Sullivan Homes Idaho followed suit Wednesday with its own unexpected closure. Sullivan Homes Idaho went a year without selling a custom built or speculative home, according to owner Todd Sullivan.”
“Sullivan said there had been considerable interest in homes throughout the year, with the company submitting bid letters on as many as 28 projects. ‘It’s really just a sign of the economy, but not one of them came through,’ Sullivan said of the prospective clients.”
“The company…currently owns four finished homes and several others in various stages of completion, and Sullivan has not decided how he and his wife, co-owner Lori Sullivan, will proceed with the assets.”
“Due to the nature of the business, Sullivan said his personal assets will most likely be affected by the closure. ‘With a home-builder, you’re so intertwined financially that the loss of a company is a loss of all your personal stuff, too. So financially, we’re going to take a very significant personal setback,’ he said.”
“‘The midsize builders, the family home builders, we’re in dire straits. People just aren’t buying. Imagine going a whole year without selling a newspaper or not selling whatever it is you’re trying to sell. It’s just not possible to do that and stay in business,’ said Sullivan, who estimates as many as 80 percent of all mid-size builders could end up falling victim to the housing crunch.”
The Oregonian. “Legend Homes, which faced a potential death sentence in bankruptcy court, has struck agreements with its lenders to build for another day. On Monday the company will put masons, framers and drywall hangers back to work at four subdivisions in Tigard, Hillsboro and Corvallis. It’s the first time Legend will start a new home since its Chapter 11 filing in June.”
“When his company filed bankruptcy, CEO David Oringdulph blamed ill-timed land purchases in Southern California, Bend and Vancouver. Some lenders pressed for Legend to liquidate to raise as much cash as possible to pay off bank debts. Banks such as Cleveland-based KeyCorp, Legend’s largest lender, are aggressively working to reduce their poor performing real estate loans.”
“‘There were no punches pulled about that with some of these national banks,’ said Clyde Hamstreet, a Portland business consultant who’s advising Legend Homes.”
“Legend may be back to work, but falling land values continue to bite its parent company, Matrix Development. Key Bank has started to foreclosure on a property Matrix Development purchased in Riverside, Calif., as part of a massive Winchester Ranch development. It’s the only Matrix property that’s fallen into foreclosure, President Jim Chapman said.”
“The company is working to reduce its land holdings and Chapman expects to lose more land through foreclosures. At one point, the company had enough land to serve 12 years’ worth of new home construction.”
The Columbian from Washington. “A total of 292 foreclosures were filed in the county last month, down from 315 in July, according to RealtyTrac. Clark County’s August total was up more than 114 percent from the 136 foreclosures filed during the same month last year.”
‘The county’s foreclosures accounted for 9.2 percent of the 3,172 foreclosures filed statewide last month. Washington had the 21st-highest foreclosure rate out of 50 states, reported RealtyTrac. Oregon ranked No. 22.”
“Across Clark County, 2,191 houses entered foreclosure from January through August, nearly three times the total of 763 foreclosures filed during the same period in 2007.”
“Rising foreclosure rates have been fueled by slowing home sales, as potential home buyers wait out the market, expecting prices to drop, said Carol Sundstrom, a Realtor in Vancouver. ‘They (buyers) fear entering the market or think they should wait,’ Sundstrom said. ‘And that’s why the problem continues.’”
“According to RMLS, there were 5,402 new and pre-owned homes for sale in Clark County in July, representing a supply of 12.7 months, if no more homes were added to the market.”
The Leader Post from Canada. “A recent study that suggests Regina’s housing market could be in for a big correction should be in for a big correction itself, according to Regina housing market watchers.”
“Gord Archibald, executive office of the Association of Regina Realtors, said the UBC study provides a ‘misleading’ picture of the local real estate market. ‘If that’s the methodology they’ve used and they’re saying the average price is $347,000, when it’s really $250,000, that’s where the $87,000 (overvaluation) comes from,’ Archibald said. ‘You’d think these (UBC) guys would be a little smarter than that,’ he added.”
“Unfortunately, the UBC study and an earlier report by Merrill Lynch, which claimed the Regina market was overpriced by nearly 50 per cent, ‘creates consternation’ in the minds of some homebuyers.”
“‘This (study) does not mean that prices are going to fall off the edge of the cliff,’ Archibald said. ‘(Buyers) might wait and postpone their buying decision until prices come down $87,000. Well, they’re not going to.’”
The Calgary Herald from Canada. “In talking with Bryan Morrow of Re/Max First and Gary MacLean of Re/Max Central, they both agree that by the end of this year, the average selling price of homes listed on the MLS system could be down as much as 20 per cent city-wide.”
“In real numbers, this is a decline of something like $100,000 from last year’s average high of about $515,000.”
“The predicted decline will be a reaction to the massive number of resale homes on the market, and the fact homebuyers decided to fight escalating prices by not spending the kind of money sellers were asking for. Regarding price, Morrow sent a price graph that pretty much explains what happened to prices through 2005 and up until the mid-point of 2007.”
“‘Prices went up nearly 100 per cent in 2-1/2 years,’ he says. ‘Let’s just say the ‘why’ for the decline can be found in the words, ‘Too far, too fast.’”
“Calculations made by Morrow show that as of the end of August, the average price for single-detached homes had fallen 13.6 per cent. Prices have been falling for 15 months, says MacLean. Sure, there have been a couple of spikes, but the trend is for prices to go down.”
“The problem isn’t sales, but inventory, he says. ‘Sales have been flat but good over that time, but the inventory situation sucks and until the inventory drops, prices will continue to fall.’”
“‘The people who are going to lose are those who have to sell — those who can no longer afford the payments based on 100-per-cent financing,’ says MacLean. ‘Their lifestyles have changed. Maybe they now have a family, maybe someone lost their job. Whatever, they are in a position where they have to sell in a market that sucks.’”
“Another realtor has a suggestion that might just help deal with the large amount of used homes listed for sale. ‘In this market, sellers have to think more like buyers,’ says the realtor, who didn’t want his name used.”
“It’s not just Calgary that has slowed down when it comes to real estate. But like Calgary, the Okanagan has so much going for it: it’s not worrying people, nor is it bound to last, say officials.”
“‘The Okanagan is a special spot and because of that, it will continue to stay in favour,’ says Randy Kowalchuk, a partner in one of the major residential developers in the Okanagan, and president of the Penticton Chamber of Commerce.”
“‘The short story is the market has dried up with Alberta buyers (and some from Vancouver) who are attracted to the soft market in the U.S.,’ says Wayne Tebbutt. ‘Some projects have stopped, others haven’t started, and still others are not going to the next phase right now.’”
“One such project that was shut down completely was the large Skaha Beach Club and Spa in Penticton, the result of the sub-prime crisis in the U.S., says developer Mel Reeves.”
“The right projects are selling, says the vice-president of Sothebys International Realty in Canada, which looks after several projects in the Okanagan, Vancouver Island and the mainland. ‘The irresponsibility has gone out of the market and we are seeing a really strong appetite for property from the sophisticated purchasers,’ says Kyle Dunn.”
The Times Colonist from Canada. “The value of B.C. housing sales plummeted nearly 50 per cent in August compared with the same month last year, highlighting the drastic changes slicing through all segments of the real estate market.”
“‘We’ve seen it now for a number of months — the decline in sales — and demand has certainly come off its record levels last year,’ said Cameron Muir, chief economist for the B.C. Real Estate Association. ‘It does have an impact on all markets in the province, particularly when we see not only a falloff in demand but also a sizable increase in the number of homes for sale.’”
“In Greater Victoria, the number of homes for sale — 4,657 — is at its highest level in a dozen years. Provincially, total listings climbed to 58,445 in August, up by 61 per cent from August 2007.”
“B.C. home sales dipped to 5,175 last August, down 47.4 per cent from the same month in 2007, the report said. And in the capital region, individual sales slid by 37.5 per cent, compared with the same month the previous year.”
“The average price of a single-family house in Greater Victoria has dropped by nearly five year cent from $606,449 in January to $549,914 in August, according to Victoria Real Estate Board figures.”
“‘The average price in Victoria has edged down over the last several months in light of the imbalance between supply and demand in the marketplace. And that situation is occurring in most major markets in the province,’ Muir said.”
The Vancouver Sun from Canada. “New homes sale listings in August suffered their second-largest monthly drop in 25 years on the Multiple Listing Service, the B.C. Real Estate Association said Friday. Residential unit sales followed the same pattern. They were down 47 per cent to 5,175 units last month compared to 9,834 units in August 2007.”
“On a regional basis, the biggest drop was in Greater Vancouver where sales fell from 3,493 units to 1,611 — a 53.9-per-cent decline.”
“In an economic research paper released earlier this week, BMO Capital Markets chief economist Sal Guatieri suggested the decline is not a short-term trend. ‘Canada faces the prospect of lower house prices in the year ahead, similar to many other countries — the U.S., Britain, Ireland, Spain, France, and Australia,’ Guatieri wrote.”
“‘After six years of unsustainable growth, prices have run smack into the affordability wall. Demand is sagging, listings are at record highs and prospective first-time buyers are choosing to rent rather than own,’ he said.”
“Guatieri said the average house price in major Canadian markets rose 78 per cent from early 2002 to late 2007 — ‘more than twice as fast as income.’ He said that a nationwide decline in average prices is being ’skewed by deep sales drops in high-priced regions like Vancouver’ — but said that in spite of the disproportionately large drop here, a national ’softening trend is undeniable.’”
I’m strapped for time today, but couldn’t pass up a post on these “bullet=proof” markets taking a fall. Jackson Hole, Montana, Victoria and can-you-believe-it Vancouver trees don’t grow to the sky!
“Brad Watsabaugh just listed his condo in the News&Guide classifieds as for sale by owner. He’s offering the property for $10,000 less than for what it was appraised. He’s asking $468,000 for the two-bedroom, one-bathroom, 900-square-foot condo”
Man things really got out of hand out there in jackson hole.He better drop his price by at least 50% just to get back to reality.Not to sure what is so special about jackson hole but I know you can pick up a nice 1000 ^ ft home here in the east valley for 100-150k.Do they still have people back there that don’t realize the party has been over for a few years?
It just goes to show how far we have to go for this thing to unwind. A $468k condo in Wyoming, and the guy says “I just need a quick sale”. The delusions that fed this mania are still alive and well.
I also want a pony — a white pony — a white pony that flies. After that it’ll be all sunshine and glittering pearls and skipping around in the land of chocolate trees and champagne lakes.
Who do I contact for that?
Remind me to stay indoors when you’re flying around on your pony.
Have you tried the FED?
I did.
They’re all locked up in a building in New York. I got on the subway, and placed a “White Pony Now” sign outside the door with my number on it.
No calls so far.
Contact Olygal.
NO SHIT!!!!
F***ing $520/ft!!!! for a condo in Wyoming!!!
No offense to any Wyomingites, but where the hell is Wyoming!!! WTF is Wyoming!!!!
That price looks more appropriate for a park view in Manhatten!!!!
“I just need a quick sale.” LMAO, stop your making my sides hurt. This guy sure loaded up on stupid!
No offense taken.
>That price looks more appropriate for a park view in Manhatten!!!!
I agree with the point you are trying to make, but a 2-BR, 900 SF condo with view of Central Park (meaning it is on Fifth Ave or Central Park West) would cost something like $3 million dollars.
They must be neighbors of Rip Van Winkle.
“And it could have been much worse in 2007, without a late-year sale of 100,000 acres in Wisconsin…”
The land was sold for $75 MM or $750/ ac
bought in 2004 for $460/acre.
They still have 209,000 acres from their original purchase. People are not buying newspapers anymore. Lumber is cheaper from Canada. The land will go back to firewood value until the next building boom hits.
There is an incredible amount of timber land available nationwide for sale. International Paper is still asking 2006 prices. Wishing prices.
Layoffs in lumber industry in the last 12 months
84 Lumber Company March 22, 2008
84 Lumber Company April 8, 2008
AbitibiBowater Inc August 28, 2008
AbitibiBowater Inc. January 22, 2008
AbitibiBowater Inc. November 30, 2007
Ainsworth Inc. November 28, 2007
Bennett Lumber Products Inc. February 19, 2008
Boucher Brothers Lumber April 8, 2008
Canfor Corp April 9, 2008
Canfor Corp June 11, 2008
Canfor Corporation November 29, 2007
Canfor Corporation January 19, 2008
Catalyst Paper Corp April 29, 2008
Catalyst Paper Corp July 8, 2008
Catalyst Paper Corporation September 5, 2008
Columbia Forest Products Inc. September 13, 2007
Domtar Corp May 9, 2008
Dubreuil Forest Products Limited November 9, 2007
Fraser Papers Inc April 7, 2008
Georgia-Pacific Corporation November 5, 2007
Green River Lumber March 14, 2008
Hanington Brothers Inc March 8, 2008
International Forest Products Limited November 7, 2007
J M Huber Corporation April 4, 2008
Katahdin Paper Company LLC September 9, 2008
Kenora Forest Products Ltd. February 16, 2008
Pope and Talbot Inc. September 18, 2007
Portac Inc. December 29, 2007
Potlatch Corporation March 28, 2008
Simpson Lumber Company March 14, 2008
Simpson Timber Company April 19, 2008
States Industries Inc. November 13, 2007
Stimson Lumber Company Inc August 13, 2008
Swanson Group, Inc. November 13, 2007
Tembec Inc April 22, 2008
Three Rivers Timber Inc April 18, 2008
Timber Products Company, LP November 13, 2007
Tolko Industries Ltd. October 6, 2007
Western Forest Products Inc April 22, 2008
Western Forest Products Inc June 20, 2008
Western Forest Products Inc. November 23, 2007
Weyerhaeuser Company September 18, 2007
Weyerhaeuser Company February 19, 2008
Weyerhaeuser Co March 7, 2008
Weyerhaeuser Co April 2, 2008
Weyerhaeuser Co April 2, 2008
Weyerhaeuser Co August 6, 2008
Wyoming Sawmills, Inc. February 5, 2008
Same company, same date means multiple triggering events, plants close etc. Weyehaeuser’s layoffs have been pretty wicked.
“…Ray Oen cleared out his office at Weyerhaeuser Co.’s headquarters on Tuesday, and carried a box of personal items to his car. On top was a photo of the nuclear submarine he served aboard as an officer. The Bellevue man is one of 1,500 employees being laid off by Weyerhaeuser, which announced the cuts earlier in the day. About 1,000 of the job cuts are at Weyerhaeuser’s Federal Way, Wash., headquarters where 2,500 people work….”
That is pretty sad.I know timber prices in california fell off a cliff.In a lot of areas you now only have one buyer for timber, sierra pacific industries based in anderson ca. A lot of other companies sold out to them and left the state.Cedar seems to be holding up the best in the sierras.They make fencing out of it.Go into home depot and you will see it as a 1″ * 6″ * 6′.There was a samll comapny up towards marysville called sierra cedar products.They went under as far as I know.
Yet PCL’s stock is doing just fine, thank you. I’m thinking I will continue to hold it, as I am convinced that we have a fat round of inflation coming, and it seems as though assets like theirs should offer some protection. Newspapers have pretty much had it, but demand for forest products is not going away permanently.
Of course, the stock is near its all-time high, so maybe I am crazy. I wouldn’t buy any more unless it the price gets knocked way down. But it’s still paying me a 3.4% dividend.
A trailing stop loss, might not be a bad idea. It forces some discipline.
“Others, however, continued to insist that the MLS numbers do not accurately reflect the actual number of homes for sale because they don’t include condominiums, townhomes, manufactured housing or trailer homes. When those numbers are factored in, the local inventory numbers swell to 8,468, said Heinrich Wiebe of Wiebe Modern Realty.”
“‘There are different ways to skin a cat, depending on how you want to slant things,’ Wiebe said.”
*****
Why is it the realtors in Idaho can be honest and all of the REIC around much of the Alt-A Bay Area are such a bunch of liars?
“And it could have been much worse in 2007, without a late-year sale of 100,000 acres in Wisconsin. Land sales, in fact, have propped up company profits in recent years, but now even that sector is struggling, and Plum Creek has recently pulled real estate listings rather than sell at today’s depressed prices.”
“‘This is a tough, tough market,’ said Holley. ‘I’m an optimist, and I can usually see a light in the darkness. But I look down that tunnel today, and it’s just black. I can’t see any light.’”
It used to be in a down market that lumber companies would just let the trees grow fatter and larger so that their assets would grow (pun intended). Now they all have gotten involved in the back end of the wood market - housing, and are getting chipped…
When more markets cannot see the light. Then we’ll see some real discounting. But that’s not the same as a bottom.
Ghad… this is the scary time. This winter and the next winter will be brutal. How many FB’s cannot afford heating oil at today’s prices?
Got Popcorn?
Neil
The inside buzz on Plum Creek in Maine as of late yesterday afternoon is that Plum Creek is about to get its gigantic development plan for Moosehead Lake in Maine rejected by the Land Use Regulation Commission.
“Others, however, continued to insist that the MLS numbers do not accurately reflect the actual number of homes for sale because they don’t include condominiums, townhomes, manufactured housing or trailer homes. When those numbers are factored in, the local inventory numbers swell to 8,468, said Heinrich Wiebe of Wiebe Modern Realty.”
Don’t forget to factor in the numbers of new foreclosures, unsold never-lived in vacant new homes, walkaways, REO, homes in deliquency status soon-to-be foreclosed and anything else that should be for sale soon but isn’t just yet.
I sold a one acre lot a mile from Teton Village for $8,000 in 1979. I made $3,000. That same lot would be worth a couple of million today. Oh well.
Speaking of hard luck stories: My dad was a gambling addict, mostly playing the horse and dog races and bought lottery tickets with the same numbers for years (he verified it by showing me the stubs). One week he neglected to buy a ticket because he was too busy, and all 6 of his numbers came up. I think he gave up on life after that…convinced God hated him. He had been an active and social man who then became morose and isolated. He died a couple years later, basically penniless.
I have an extreme aversion to all forms of gambling because of him, including the stock market. Dad was convinced I was smart enough to really do well with horse racing if I would only “learn his techniques”, and was furious that I wouldn’t even try. It sadly drove a wedge between us in the years before he died.
horse racing is actually less gambling involved than housing or the suck market.
Look on the bright side, those ridiculous land prices are in a freefall. I seriously doubt that parcel would fetch that price, anyhow.
“That same lot would be worth a couple of million today.”
Haven’t you learned anything? Saying what it would be worth, and actually selling it for that price are two different things. It’s worth what you sell it for.
“Gord Archibald, executive office of the Association of Regina Realtors, said the UBC study provides a ‘misleading’ picture of the local real estate market. ‘If that’s the methodology they’ve used and they’re saying the average price is $347,000, when it’s really $250,000, that’s where the $87,000 (overvaluation) comes from,’ Archibald said. ‘You’d think these (UBC) guys would be a little smarter than that,’ he added.”
“Unfortunately, the UBC study and an earlier report by Merrill Lynch, which claimed the Regina market was overpriced by nearly 50 per cent, ‘creates consternation’ in the minds of some homebuyers.”
“‘This (study) does not mean that prices are going to fall off the edge of the cliff,’ Archibald said. ‘(Buyers) might wait and postpone their buying decision until prices come down $87,000. Well, they’re not going to.’”
Somebody smarter than me needs to check the math on this little ditty, I’m coming up with $97K. But then again, I’m not an executive realtor so I couldn’t be expected to understand this high finance stuff.
What a frackin’ whiner, of course prices are going to come down and all the sellers are going to take a financial ass-pounding. Case closed.
“But.. But.. Canada is different. We are better the US.”
We also have pixie dust, unicorns and chocolate fountains in Canada. We can avoid reality with a lot of magical thinking.
LOL…try living in Quebec. The Pequistes have made a career out of magical thinking.
Most western and some eastern countries still do not realize how closely their fate is tied to the future of the US. The lay people in these countries have been fed so much propaganda (”it is different here”/ “we are special”) that they believe it to be a fact - kinda like many religious types believe in the rapture.
This mindset can only be corrected when it reaches it logical (and tragic) conclusion. Either they hit the wall of reality or run off the cliff like wiley coyote. In either case the end will not be pretty, someone will have to scrape lots of body parts of the wall or canyon floor.
I agree 100% with you. As a Canadian on a US work visa, I have to say that I’ve really been awakened to the ridiculousness of the propaganda in everyday life in Canada, but especially with the housing bubble. There are other cultural aspects too, but the holier-than-thou attitude has hurt Canadians immeasurably on the housing front.
The most ridiculous aspect of the Canadian housing bubble which floors people is the prevalence of 35-year and 40-year mortgages as of the last boom, courtesy of the CMHC (i.e. the Canadian equivalent of Fannie/Freddy) when you can’t even deduct your mortgage interest, property taxes or school taxes! All of my US friends just shake their heads at this. A 25 year mortgage about a decade ago was asking for a lot in Canada. Most people used to pay off their houses using 15-20 year mortgages, so the 25-year was a big stretch. This is the primary reason why house prices in Canada have typically been (and will again need to be) lower than US house prices. There’s just no incentive to take a long-term mortgage considering PITI.
Vancouver is the real cute example. See, with a lot of scrimping and saving there were a number of people who could even afford a $500,000 house in the Bay Area in terms of family income (you could do it as a stretch for $120k gross home income in the Valley). While Vancouver house prices reached almost $800k median, few people in Vancouver were breaking $100k in household income (you basically need someone with a Masters or Ph.D. in the house plus the other person working). And, as we know, that type of education exists in only 1/8th of the population. What about the other 7/8ths of the people out there? And what about actually paying the mortgage off, or even gathering the down payment?
Then there are other places like Edmonton where $400k median house price with a $70k/year average family income, and 19 condo for sale signs on a single complex I drove by last year. The numbers just don’t add up, but eventually they will.
In short, stick a fork in Canada. Just like the rest of the world, its housing market is done. My only hope is that the Canadian government leaves the banks hanging out to dry instead of rescuing them when they start complaining about defaults, but I doubt it.
“Key Bank has started to foreclosure on a property Matrix Development purchased in Riverside, Calif., as part of a massive Winchester Ranch development. It’s the only Matrix property that’s fallen into foreclosure, President Jim Chapman said.””
I believe Winchester Ranch is the Winchester between Hemet and Temecula/Murrieta. Not Riverside.But definitely Riv Co.
Wonder how to research this info.
Oops, Posted wrong spot,
but regarding Chocolate fountains,
we have those too, they sure are messy. Still looking for unicorns, maybe in Hollywood.
desertdweller,
Do you live around Palm Springs? I have a good friend that lives in Palm Springs.
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
How Not to Balance a Budget
September 13, 2008; Page A12
Anyone who thinks the path to “fiscal discipline” is through higher taxes ought to look at the current budget spectacles in New York and California. The two liberal states have among the highest tax burdens in the country, yet both now find themselves with huge budget deficits and are debating still higher taxes to close the gap.
California has the highest state income tax rate in the country (10.3%), while New York State also has a high income tax rate (6.85%), with the combined state and city rate rising to 10.5% in New York City. Their overall government spending totals also happen to top the national charts. And, what do you know, California is $15 billion in the red this year while New York is trying to close a $6.4 billion 2009 budget hole, which budget expert E.J. McMahon of the Manhattan Institute expects to grow to $26 billion over three years.
With help from McMahon, maybe one of the two states can win some money from Publisher’s Clearing House
From the article: “From 1997-2006, New York State lost 409,000 people… Over the past decade 1.32 million more native-born Americans left the Golden State than moved in — despite beaches, mountains and 70-degree weather. Mostly the people who have fled are the successful, the talented and the rich.”
When bad times come, some people make less money, thus pay less taxes. They also spend less. But somehow the government thinks it is a good idea to raise taxes as the economy falters. Maybe the theory is that government spending will support the economy, but I suspect it is simple unwillingness to reduce political clout, which is purchased by controlling ever-larger sums.
Time to look for a permanent residence elsewhere. Maybe keep a vacation pad here in California. As inflation kicks in, those high tax rates on “the rich” will trickle down to the middle class. Remember what happened with the AMT.
I agree sm….I think the problems right now are minor compared to whats comming….It bothers the crap out of me because I love where I live but I am tempted (like you) to find a pad out of state and claim residency there…Nevada maybe, Texas (Never !), or possibly Florida (to far away from Cali)…Looks like Nevada…Incline village most likely..
Most smart people are gonna head out.
This is one of those phenomenon that “static analysis” never captures and then everyone is going to be like “we never saw that one coming.”
F*ck all of them with a big rubber d*ldo.
This is just standard right-wing nonsense that is typical of WSJ editorials. Many state and local governments are stuggling because of the recession. This includes states with high tax rates and low tax rates.
Also, consider this:
Over the past decade 1.32 million more native-born Americans left the Golden State than moved in — despite beaches, mountains and 70-degree weather. Mostly the people who have fled are the successful, the talented and the rich.”
How does writer actually know this? He’ probably has no idea why those folks left California. Many of these people who left CA are just lucky folks who benefited from the rise in the values of their houses. Or else they happened to reach retirement age and moved to states with cheaper housing.
Notice that he doesn’t really get into the details of the differences in government spending between NY and CA on the one hand and FL and TX on the other hand. I’ve read many accounts of New Yorkers who move down to Florida who are shocked by the poor quality of the schools down there.
Have summer/visit pads in CA and NY, but be taxable on an RV plot in Texas?
Eeentaresting…
(Just got back from a 3-week cross-country ride/drive, I could DEFINITELY live in an RV and just roam from state to state, if only I could find work to support that :/)
I only support tax increases when there is a simultaneous drop in spending at the same time and a publicly stated plan of budget reconciliation. I believe that ALL government should be required to maintain an inflation-indexed balanced budget, except in times of emergency or if there is an adequate capital reserve to issue leveraged bonds. Leave speculation to the free market, but let the free market pay it’s fair share of the tax burden, instead of the byzantine system of loopholes and writeoffs.
Anyone who thinks the path to “fiscal discipline” is through higher taxes ought to look at the current budget spectacles in New York and California. The two liberal states have among the highest tax burdens in the country,
US tax rate 0-35%- total debt to GDP = 60 - excludes recent gse and I belive future liabilities
Denmark 40-50% - total debt/gdp = 20
Germany 15-45% -total debt/gdp = 64
Sweden 30-60% - total debt/gdp = 41
So a bit more complicated than the article suggests.
“Brad Watsabaugh just listed his condo in the News&Guide classifieds as for sale by owner. He’s offering the property for $10,000 less than for what it was appraised. He’s asking $468,000 for the two-bedroom, one-bathroom, 900-square-foot condo.”
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I have appraised my ENRON shares at $50,000 - any takers?
There got to some law to control these lunatic appraisers. These are the people who screwed the country.
In fairness, the FMV is what someone is willing to pay. And for a time, people were willing to pay outrageous sums of money for real estate. So even appraisers that were giving values at what would be historically ridiculous levels (when compared to income or rent, etc) were valid in the manic market in which it was given.
No doubt some appraisers then and now give prices even above the market. But I consider that to be correctly a civil issue and not a criminal one.
“In fairness, the FMV is what someone is willing to pay. And for a time, people were willing to pay outrageous sums of money for real estate. So even appraisers that were giving values at what would be historically ridiculous levels (when compared to income or rent, etc) were valid in the manic market in which it was given.”
Sooo.. Zey vere chust pfollowing orrrders?
“The average price of a single-family house in Greater Victoria has dropped by nearly five year cent from $606,449 in January to $549,914 in August, according to Victoria Real Estate Board figures.”
Wait till these Victoria real estate board wizards find out that prices actually dropped about 10%, not 5% as was calculated above. Boy will they have some explaining to do. I doubt they would be so careless determining their commission .
Vancouver’s eastern suburbs are getting hammered. About time. This whole thing has been soo stoooopid!
I have tracked one house that has gone from an asking price of 489K in March to its current asking price of 380K. Dunces.
Sellers getting hurt? What about DPA programs and shutting out buyers as well? The competition with investers is really nuts right now. First time home buyers are getting slaughtered like big-horn cattle. Wish I could figure out how to become one of the elite home owners so I can stop sending my money to those crazy, greedy, multi-family home owners!