Bits Bucket For September 20, 2008
Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
Good morning, boys and girls. I hope you all pledged allegiance to The Fed this morning. You don’t want to make them angry as they continue to consume more and more power.
Barney Frank was on Bloomberg last night. How can anybody be a staunch Democrat? That seems nearly as difficult as being a staunch Republican. I am going down to the Fed today to see if they will pay my rent. What are the odds?
Odds would go up, if you go and ask them to buy a house for you. Just paying your rent would be throwing money away. Paulson and company would never, ever want to do that.
In other news:
House prices just went up 500 points!
And 500 thousand real estate agents all became democrats last week.
“How can anybody be a staunch Democrat?”
But but but! There is no difference you all declare!!!
Are you defending Schumer, Pelosi, Frank, Dodd, Reid, etc.? The victim party wants to “keep people in their homes”. I guess that means the crowd that lied on their application, put no money down, extracted equity and then never bothered with making payments. Please let me know if you are defending that party. I know you are a partisan but good lord, is that what you want to do? Defending either side makes you look foolish. You never seem to be critical of that group.
If I hear “keep people in their homes” from these SOBs one more time I might heave. How about the honest, hard-working, responsible people who are being kept out of the market by home prices that are STILL out of touch with incomes?
And yes, if you are collecting asinine quotations about housing, Democratic politicians are your mainstay, Republicans are just your backup.
RE: The victim party wants to “keep people in their homes”. I guess that means the crowd that lied on their application, put no money down, extracted equity and then never bothered with making payments.
And don’t forget about all the doctors, lawyers, and monied retirees who bought 3 and 4 single-family homes on spec with 0% down.
Are they all gonna be made whole again with your tax dollars?
did the cat piss in your cherrios again this morning?
just kidding
been working all week have not had a chance to read the blog all week-and what a week it was
more stuff happens and i am not shocked as it was predicted here several years ago
6 weeks til the election
have a great weekend everyone
“You never seem to be critical of that group.”
Nor have I praised them but why would I have anything to say about them considering they
haven’t held both branches of govt in how many decades???? Alternately, the nutjob fascists owned both legislative branches for 12 years and the executive office simultaneously for 6 of those years. They ran the table NYCB so please enlighten the rest of how parading out the favorite hobgoblins called Pelosi &Co does anything apologize for the status quo.
Increasing home-debtorship was PUBLIC POLICY of the Bush administration and marketed as The Ownership Society with all branches resting with the GOP. It wasn’t run out of Barney Franks favorite Beantown Bath House, Pelosi’s vineyard or Reids Casino. It was pushed by the top and at the top of the Bush administration. Had the other party had control would they have done the same? The point is moot because they didn’t run the table.
Not true. I said they TALK different but Both Dem and Rep ACT the same.
Act means rape/pillage/plunder/mislead/waste/cover up all in the name of “common good”.
ouch, if you are gonna do that to me use more lube dammit.
“McCain-Palin have nowhere to go now but down, and I will tell you exactly how this will happen. They can run away from President Bush, but they can’t run away from the Republican Party. The Republicans will be regarded from now on as “the party that wrecked America.” Over the weeks ahead, as carnage in the economy and the financial markets ramps up, it will become increasingly clear.”
Best Wishes!
Sarah Palin’s going down?
sign me up too.
Right, it’s the old “good cop/bad cop” routine. Why can’t more people see that? It’s been working like a charm for the PTB.
You hit the nail right on the head. Good cop / bad cop is a perfect way to describe it. Though in this case the criminals are not on the other side of the table.
First you have to show how your failing to pay rent creates a domino effect bringing down the entire economy. Just bring a white paper on the butterfly effect and you should be good to go.
Unfortunately they won’t pay your rent. But they will co-sign your mortgage!
Tell them you can’t access your money market fund. They’ll write a check on the spot.
Communism is when the State controls Industry.
Fascism is when Industry controls the State.
Which are we now?
Fascunism
Fastcon
Does it matter to know? The only truth is that the U.S. economic system is not Capitalist.
All capitalists are created equal.
Some are more equal than others.
“Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it’s just the opposite.”
John Kenneth Galbraith
not since 1913
and socialist since the 30’s
only another 700 billion and when home prices go back up in a few years think of all the money the FED will make for us.
I’m going to delay my income averaging back into the stock market I have a funny feeling I might need to convert it all to Krona.
Hows Cali ?
I am thinking about converting all of mine to Corona. And maybe some limes too.
Fascevangelism
2001: Islamophobia
2008: Christophobia
The evangs wanted political power in the worst way, and they have left us in the worst way.
There will be hell to pay, and guess what?
evangs* are the most despised religious group in the country, already.
* Atheists in theory claim the top spot, but they aren’t religious, so how does that work?
The evans are dispised by the athiests and vice versa. Who cares?
The evangs are in power currently and haven’t a clue what to do…
The religious leanings of the party in power are a red herring, nothing more. Do you honestly think Bush & co are guided by religious principles? They’re guided by one thing - lust for power. That’s quite counter to Christian (evangelistic or otherwise) principles. You know (or maybe you don’t) - “The meek shall inherit the earth”, “turn the other cheek”, “take the lesser place at the table” and all that.
Get that through your thick head please.
Explain away the 150 or so Regent University grads in the Federal Government that all snuck in under ’ssshrubery’s knows, all from a 4th tier law school, the lowest ranking possible?
Regent University was founded by Pat Robertson.
Explain away Ted Haggard, who was often whisked away to D.C. to help our dear leader plot the future, and presumably would still be doing so, had that male prostitute not spilled the beans about the Meth-od of his madness?
I could go on and on if you’d like…
Those evang appointments were merely a cynical way to ensure support from a homogeneous bloc of voters, but knowing the majority of Americans support liberal (small “l”) views on social issues he never had any intention of altering policy. Total bait & switch. Check out David Kuo’s book: Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction.
SaladSD already pretty much covered it, but I’ll reiterate that Bush & co’s religious trappings are just that - trappings; most likely intended to win votes. They’re not really being guided by the religious principles to which they claim to follow.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Wolves comes in all sorts of sheeple clothing…
Actually let me step back a sec. There is one other possibility that I didn’t mention - that Bush is simply a puppet to the true PTB, and may in fact have decent moral character (other than “strength”) that ends up being moot. I believe that there’s some possibility that this is the case. I suspect it’s a bit of a combination of the two.
Either way - know that Christianity (evangelical or otherwise) in general does not promote this kind of behavior.
Looking at all of the MBA’s coming from the 1st tier schools like Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Wharton etc, I don’t know if it makes any difference except for the tuition.
A bunch of Manchurian Candidates the likes of Monica Goodling is what we deserve?
Good god man, wake up!
Wait a fawkin second!!!! Let me read this 4x again…. Jerry are you saying Ivy MBA’s are the same caliber as those coming out of banana republic “universities” like Reject and Liberty??? You’ve just driven the car off the road my friend!!!!
Communism and Facism lead to the same place
Totalitarianism.My take is that we are on the Facism tract to totalitarianism. Corporate america has been pulling the strings of the puppets.
“The meek shall inherit the earth”, “turn the other cheek”, “take the lesser place at the table” and all that.
Get that through your thick head please.
HORSE pucky.
The evangs and other religious nuts don’t know what the heck the “bible tells me so” and certainly don’t practice it.
Been taken to the cleaners/swindled by a few “christyuns” in my day.
Learned new financial term today in Fortune: Pollyanna Creep. There’s an economist in Calif that coined the term, has a website: http://www.shadowstats.com
(He could use a webmaster, his site is textually overwhelming).
Same as Goldilocks - Larry Kudlow always seemed “creep”y to me.
Good morning, boys and girls. I hope you all pledged allegiance to The Fed this morning.
Being that we have become a nation of “consumers” as opposed to citizens, this kind of makes sense.
Have you noticed over the past decade the media has dropped the word citizen in exchange for consumer? — In news today consumers …
i have and it bothers me
consumer? go f yourself
citizens have rights, consumers are emptied wallets.
Consumers are debt men.
I’ve noticed it too. The GDP depends on it.
The Fed Prevails!
I watched “V for Vendetta” on TV last night, so that seems like an appropriate motto for our new government.
I must have seen V for Vendetta a dozen times now…
NYCB-You better bring the KY Jell because you have a much better chance of taking it up the backside from those schisters than getting money from them.
How much healthcare could $700,000,000,000.00 buy?
The bailout may have ended the third inning. Looks like the financial industry crisis is the first part of the game.
The second part of the game will see housing prices returning to affordability, and regional banks getting crushed by construction loans in places where the bubble took the form of excess development rather than mind-numbing prices.
The third part of the game will see the elimination of the ability of the U.S. to consume more than it produces, as foreigners are unwilling to pay for the U.S. to go deeper and deeper into debt. The federal government seems desperate to postpone this adjustment, so people can keep buying SUVs. So it will be up to people overseas to decide when this ends.
RE: What inning are we in?
The Resolution Trust Corporation was formed in 1989, years after the S&L crisis was public knowledge and had already decimated the industry. Housing prices had not dropped appreciably by 1989; in fact, price declines in California played out over the 1990-1996 period, the beginnings of which coincided with the officially-dated timing of the early-1990s recession (7/90-3/91).
Based on the sudden awakening of the U.S. populace to the crisis, and the capitulation of top leaders to the need for a wholesale, taxpayer-funded bailout, we may be earlier in the game than many posters here would assume. In fact, based on the relative timing of the bailout underway this weekend versus the establishment of the RTC in 1989, we may still be in the (long) first inning.
Bingo.
Most smart people knew the gig was up circa 1985 or so, the gig was definitely up by 1987 and the RTC was formed in 1989.
The parallels in the timelines should be obvious.
Do you agree the game as just begun?
But 99% of the people think the game has just finished. They are standing up from their seats, heading for the exits, thinking the home team just won on a Hail Mary pass. Could they be wrong?
Just from observing my own surroundings, it still looks like 99% of the people doesn’t even know there’s a game going on.
I am of the opinion that the fireworks have just begun.
They’re still running programs on HGTV on ” How Much is My House Worth ” with an eye to the homeowners being able to tap the equity in their (extremely ?!) valuable properties for more granite countertops and renovated bathrooms, so I don’t believe that more than 1-2 % of the populace has any idea of how seriously this will affect their lives. We’re on our way to the bank to take out some $$ in case there is indeed a liquidity crisis, and then to Costco or Sam’s Club to lay in some non-perishables. Then, we’ll go have some fun.
“Do you agree the game as just begun?”
I’m still waiting for a few CEO and CFO types to leap from their office windows. At least in the past there was some sense of guilt. Today they agree to fade away if given $10m and lifelong health and dental policies.
We are in the 3rd innings of a 4-day cricket test match…
Considering recent shocks to the financial system, we’re pass denial and onto bargaining — understanding what went wrong. Acceptance, anger, and despair are next.
Aladinsane: I believe you intended to type either “overs” or “batsmen dismissed”. In test cricket only two complete innings are required to end the match.
My bad googly.
The public is only just now waking from a deep sleep. Market players and RE-related people are now awake, everyone else is still groggy and would like to hit the snooze button.
I’ve given up guessing how BAD the news needs to be before Joe Homeowner can accept that HIS house is not worth the fortune he thought it was. He’s only to the point of admitting that some other guy -across town, next county, next state — is screwed. Joe still thinks he’s doing okay.
Cricket sucks.
Cricket and baseball are very similar…
Both have long stretches where nothing happens, punctuated only occasionally by brief moments of something happening.
Cricket is a gentleman’s game.
Silverback you will just love this new HGTV show;
“My Big Amazing Renovation: captures the thrill of renovation when renovating goes to extremes, like when a small 1500-square-foot bungalow becomes a large 5000-square-foot dream home”
I believe this show is already obselete.
Giacomo,
You have no idea how fast and how loudly Joe Homeowner will scream that his McMansion has lost value if under the Paulson Plan he thinks he can have his $750K mortgage knocked down to $150K.
If Joe Homeowner can have his $750k mortgage knocked down to $150k under the Paulson Plan, then we should be able to have our mortgage knocked down to minus $ 475k, and the RTC or whoever’ll be running this shebang will owe us a bunch of money, and I can retire. Sounds like a plan. Sign me up - just call me Jill Homeowner.
Maybe we can slow down and think about the ramifications of what is being proposed before enacting legislation that will have all kinds of unintended consequences.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/20/AR2008092001059.html
construction loans in places where the bubble took the form of excess development ??
You mean like “Chowchilla” California
So you teach a dance to a local vermin and get the Chowchilla Chinchilla Cha-Cha?? - “)
- Smile like you mean it!!
“The third part of the game will see the elimination of the ability of the U.S. to consume more than it produces”
Good
I thought it was a human right to have more than you can afford?
This would seem to imply the abolishment of the minimum wage, since even at that level people here earn in an hour what it takes a week to earn in many places where all the junk we buy is made. We cannot have it all ways. Either we have protectionist policy with regards to offshoring and our TV’s cost a whole lot more, or we continue our path to lower wages, and ultimately still get no TVs.
The income disparity between first and third world saddens me personally.
My wife is kicking a spendthrift (thieving) nephew out of our overseas house’s cushy caretaker position. College kid went from pampered symbiote to parasite in just 6 months.
He could have bled us for several years. Instead he went for so much that the renting business couldn’t function. (Killed the host.) Either something like drug addiction, showboating for friends, or just plain stupidity.
He was tasked with keeping the house clean, informing of maintenance problems, showing the house to renters, and paying bills (an obvious management structural failure here.) A new requirement my wife added later was Don’t Argue With The Boss. He couldn’t/wouldn’t do any of these things.
The root cause was likely that he saw more money flowing through the house accounts each month than his father likely ever earned in a month. (Mostly due to the premium for his malfeasance, but hey.) And his aunt kept feeding him more rope while warning him repeatedly, rather than slapping him down. So he is outside his former abode, holding a sack, with a $10 severance in his pocket. (A couple days pay for a skilled carpenter - his aunt was still too kind.)
The number of people in his third world country willing to steal a months salary and get fired immediately and be out of work for three years thereafter, rather than steal a month’s salary over the course of every year from a cushy job just floors me. But then I consider the me first get mine and out housing bubble here in the first world and I realize I should understand it. It’s not just poverty. It’s greed. The surrounding poverty just makes insane greed more instantly obvious. (I’m using “insane” here to mean too crazy to function effectively (for long) in the real world.)
“The income disparity between first and third world saddens me personally.”
I’m not in the least bit sad about it. Seriously.
The key reason why the United States is (was) wealthier than any other country on the planet is due to our form of government and the provisions that used to be in place favoring the rights of individuals.
Now that affording inalienable rights to individuals is passe, we’re on the inevitable slow, long decline.
Maybe someone in some other country will pick up the torch and carry it for a while. When we find out who that is, any remaining lovers of individual liberty in this country should pool their dollars and ship the Statue Of Liberty overseas to whomever believes in and dies for such stuff.
We need to have the money come from the top income earners, not the bottom income earners who never ever make the policy decisions.
Have some of those CEOs /execs and politicians forcibly give up their HUGE monies.
What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
* SEPTEMBER 20, 2008
Government Bailouts: A U.S. Tradition Dating to Hamilton
By MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS
The bubble pops. Lenders freeze. Depositors lose faith. Panic spreads. And the government steps in because nobody else will.
Today it is Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke putting together the rescue package for a financial system rocked by falling home prices and a wave of defaults on subprime mortgages.
But a short walk through U.S. history demonstrates the point made by Alex J. Pollock of the American Enterprise Institute: “If you would like an empirical law of government behavior, it is that in a panic or threatened financial collapse, governments intervene — every government, every party, every country, every time.”
Yep. And sometimes it takes people with backbone like Andrew Jackson to undo the damage done by the emergency intervention.
I just heard that a bunch of FB’s were protecting somewhere and demanding that every American deserves a home . See the kind
of weird stuff that happens when you got guys like Senator Dodds promoting this entitlement thing . Condos for everyone.
sorry…. protesting not protecting
RE: See the kind
of weird stuff that happens when you got guys like Senator Dodds promoting this entitlement thing . Condos for everyone.
Wiz-You watch what happens with all the inventory which falls in the federal government hands.
It’s be Section 8 subsidies not just for a dirt-bag slumlord tenement, but now for newly constructed single family detached homes.
They will put every welfare deadbeat, the drug addicted disabled, specially designated exploited minorities, and immigrants into all these properties.
Monthly mortgage payments will be based on income which means these people will live in $3000k GRM housing for $300.
It’ll all be right up O’Bama’s alley.
Hot man 74 ….Many people will take the stance of why work hard and try to get ahead in life when you can get it free.
The system will continued to be gamed . The constitution entitled everyone to the pursuit of happiness , not the pursuit of hand-outs from the government .
Entitlement, it’s what’s for dinner tonight. Rich folk, poor folk, they all wanted houses that they didn’t have to pay for, it’s all a matter of scale. What’s the difference between some wet-eared Harvard MBA grad and his/her bubble-inflated mansion in the Hamptons, and some poor schlub living in east LA Section 8? We’re paying for both of them, cuz that’s what the middle class does.
“It’s be Section 8 subsidies not just for a dirt-bag slumlord tenement, but now for newly constructed single family detached homes.”
This is one of myriad reasons why now is not the time to buy. Better to first see what the govt does with all the houses they are about to take off the hands of builders and bankers before making a long-term investment decision which could turn out badly if the govt decides to locate Section 8 housing nearby.
Eminent Domain - the 51st state of Amerikka. So, for whom shall its capital be named?
North! To United States - We’re goin’ North, the rush is on! Maybe to even as far north as Alaska. East, South and West to Alaska, too.
Can Anchorageans say “buenas dias”? Time for all those in the Klondike to learn Espanol.
BTW, do Hispanics tend to favor paying taxes? I bet every city in the country - large and small - celebrates Cinqo De Maio in a big way in 2009. What other peoples enjoy paying taxes?
And where’s this Amero dollar proposal already? This past spring, Ben asked us to make predictions for end-of-year 2008. The Amero was mine. Socialize that risk already! Geez.
Oh that Andrew Jackson that signed “Indian Removal Act.”
Race ethics across society have steadily improved all through the course of our history (now to the point of overkill IMO).
Economics ethics OTOH have done the opposite.
(The subject at hand was economic ethics)
Racial ethics in our society have improved greatly over time (to the point of overkill IMO).
Economics ethics has done the opposite.
The subject at hand is the latter.
So what?
If Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act, that must mean he was wrong about bankers and the Fed is good and should be trusted. I think that’s what the poster was trying to get across.
I’m disgusted by what is happening. I can’t say that there was any alternative, because I’m not sure what the consequences would have been should the government have turned a blind eye instead of stepping in. Perhaps Hoz, or FPSS could clue the blog in as to what Paulson and Bernanke might have said to Congress to start the shants pitting. Many members seemed quite shaken.
Nonetheless, the very fact that taxpayers stand to foot the bill for such nonsense from the banks and Wall St. over the course of the past several years, is despicable. Most disturbing, to me, is the lack of attention given to those who profited so heavily from the shady dealings, such as Stanley O’neal. These men should be stripped of their wealth, and imprisoned. Instead, they’ll laugh amongst each other, remembering the good old days, as the commoners break under the weight of a countries crushing debt burden.
RE: the commoners break under the weight of a countries crushing debt burden.
There was no democratic vote for the assumption of this outrageous debt.
The real bottom line in all this, is that the US federal government has completely abdicated it’s constitutional legitimacy.
I know I will pledge no further alligence to the entity that relegates me to a debt serf, while the perpetrators of all this go off laughing to their foreign island compounds.
There is a vote. It’s being done by our representatives in Congress. What you can do is vote them out of office and have the new lawmakers put them in prison, from Bush to Paulson to Bernanke to Dodd to Pelosi to Reid to Frank to Cox to the Wall St thieves
The end of denial, which is currently underway pretty much across the entire U.S., could prove quite painful. The most bizarre aspect of the whole thing is comedians like Jay Leno, Jon Steward and Stephen Colbert suddenly adding financial panic subject matter to their comedy routines, which I believe is a useful barometer of dawning awareness among the mass public on topics long discussed here.
Interestingly enough, a day or so ago I heard Paulson quoted in the media stating that the root cause of current financial problems was falling home prices. Rot on the balance sheet is quite another matter entirely, of which falling home prices are a mere symptom.
* CAPITAL
* SEPTEMBER 20, 2008
In Turmoil, Capitalism in U.S. Sets New Course
* By DAVID WESSEL
This past week marks a decisive turn in the evolution of American capitalism.
Black September, the biggest financial shock since the Great Depression, is prompting a Republican Treasury secretary and Federal Reserve chairman to devise the most muscular government intervention in the economy since the Great Depression in an effort to prevent the economic devastation of the Great Depression.
Abandoning its one-rescue-at-a-time strategy of recent months, the government suddenly has shifted to a broad attack on what Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson calls “the root cause of our financial system’s stresses,” the rot on the balance sheets of America’s financial system.
I always wondered why Republican Presidents in severe economic times order severe state control of the economy and get blamed in history for being in favor of the Free market? Bush is a neo-Hoover.
I think you just insulted Hoover.
“I think you just insulted Hoover.”
Hoover went on to become a statesman. I don’t see that fate befalling Bush.
and he makes a pretty damn good vacuum cleaner too
Herbert’s reputation goes up just a little bit more every day, compared to ’ssshrubery’s reign of error.
“Herbert’s reputation goes up just a little bit more every day, compared to ’ssshrubery’s reign of error.”
Better to be ineffectual than complicit, sort of like not putting enough water on a fire versus starting the fire and then adding gasoline.
Herbert makes a good vacuum cleaner, but Bush sux.
1930 hoover submitted to the left and TAXED the RICH ”
sound familiar
Exexter , you out there
Exeter is a Federal Government employee.
My guess is that he’s a lobbyist. But that is truly and purely a guess…I have no proof.
“Bush is a neo-Hoover.”
We aren’t in a Depression. It may be, but it hasn’t hit yet. Hoover walked into one at the start of his term. Bush would be the good-times President in the big picture.
I don’t think the collapse of the dotcom bubble in March 2000 was exactly good times. The economy hasn’t been solid since the 1960’s
I still rue the day I bought all that anvil.com stock.
I find it interesting that all the people who voted for Bush are scared to death of Obama.
Because they’re afraid of going from the frying pan into the fire? Anyway, I will be writing in Ron Paul.
“Anyway, I will be writing in Ron Paul.”
I will too. I’m in BO’s home state, so my vote won’t count anyway.
It is really interesting. All the things they claim to be afraid of, socialism, out of control spending, big government, etc., have been given to us tenfold by the Bush administration. What else is there to fear?
“Abandoning its one-rescue-at-a-time strategy of recent months, the government suddenly has shifted to a broad attack on what Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson calls “the root cause of our financial system’s stresses,” the rot on the balance sheets of America’s financial system.”
Someone intuitively referred to this latest strategy as “backing a gasoline tanker up to a house fire”. We’ll see how it works out.
We should be happy they didn’t decide to use the “bulldoze a sourrounding firebreak of middle class housing neighborhoods”
Oh wait…
The German SEC (Bafin) announced a ban on short sales on financial stocks today.
After injecting 1.6 billion Euros and guaranteeing another 10 billion, the federal government sold the IKB to Lonestar for 110 million.
State owned banks are still exposed to Lehman, another 1.7 billion lost. And another state owned bank managed to transfer 300 million Euros to Lehman Brothers on Monday, when the entire world already knew that Lehman was broke.
No protests in the streets, though.
All of this smacks of pure desperation.
All the banning of short selling during GD didn’t change a thing. It just meant that people were “locked” into place. Those who had shorted, and were willing/able to hold on, and those who couldn’t get in.
All the short squeezes couldn’t change the fundamentals. How could they? They’re a side bet to the main show.
The prices on most world exchanges collapsed anyway.
OK, to cheer us up, here’s a trivia question: At the dawn of 1901 (twentieth century) what countries had the five largest exchanges? Two are obvious: UK and US. The other three?
Guessing here:
The Netherlands
France
Austria
All wrong, PB.
Try again. Think 1901 — industrial economy. Who are the producers and the consumers?
Turkey? As in Ottoman Empire Turkey?
Or maybe some ex-British Empire African colony?
Rhodesia?
South Africa?
Ooo ooo - I’ll play.
Russia
Germany
Switzerland
??
(though I’m thinking it may be China too)
Germany
India
Japan
I said Austria, but perhaps Austro-Hungarian Empire would be more accurate?
Pussy Galore,
howazabout Argentina?
Two answers are right: Russia and Argentina.
Third one is really hard.
France Germany and Italy.
New Zealand?
Naah, dude, it was a serious market not some bit player in the Pacific.
Think commodities. Think different kinds of monopolies.
Canada! Just kidding.
Japan?
Prussia?
South Africa?
South Africa (Rhodesia) was the best guess but it was a British colony. However, it wasn’t among the big five.
Let’s think laterally, people.
Perhaps, if I changed the word “monopoly” to “control of goods-flow”, would that help?
Indochina? Cuba?
China?
Panama?
Venice?
Seriously - perhaps Hong Kong?
ooh Egypt!!
Portugal?
India?
Yep, ella nailed it.
It’s Egypt.
Cotton and Suez Canal — it’s a deadly combo.
You win a dinner at my place next time you’re in NYC (I’m a very good cook.)
I’ll take India for $500, Alex…
woot! I have to admit, my husband pointed out that Panama’s not the only one with a canal.
Very nice prize! I think I have almost enough air miles for New York…
Gotta hate when they throw that “husband” word in there.
My wife does that all the time.
that was a fun thread!
Egypt…the once powerful world empire, whose ex-pats formed a considerable number of the 9/11 terrorists.
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
SEPTEMBER 20, 2008
Stopping the Panic
The financial world breathed easier Friday, as the full force of the U.S. government was employed to stop what had become a full-fledged global panic. Now comes the equally crucial job of protecting taxpayers — and restoring markets — after a historic federal intervention.
There’s little doubt that this week we were watching the modern equivalent of a 1930s bank run. Instead of lining up at bank windows, investors were unloading financial assets on their PCs. Credit markets had seized up, to the point that even routine daily settlements had stopped until banks had the actual securities or cash in hand.
With the government already deeply implicated in financial markets — and a substantial cause of the mistakes leading to the panic — Treasury and the Federal Reserve had to act to prevent a crash. Libertarians will cry no-havoc, and the left will hail the (false) dawn of a new socialist era, but a financial meltdown would have been far worse for the economy and the cause of capitalism.
Whether this intervention is wise, however, will be determined by how the specific policies are implemented in the days and months ahead. One blunder is the SEC’s short-selling ban, which will apply to 799 financial stocks. The “temporary” ban looks like a piece of political theater designed to appease CEOs — such as John Mack at Morgan Stanley — who don’t want anyone betting their stock will fall. The first temptation of politicians in a crisis is to shoot the messenger, and short sellers are often messengers of bad news. But banning information in a market is always a mistake.
The fact that people were pulling funds from sick firms ,or pulling money from firms that were the root of the problem that had their investments at risk is not a
bad thing . The world woke up to how bad their trusted investment firms where ,and they deserved to fail .
Trying to get trust back is the same as trying to get mania prices back , it ain’t going to happen .
We went yesterday & got some cash from one of our banks ( TCF ) in case there is a liquidity crisis in a couple of weeks. The branch that we bank at had so many people coming in during the previous week to withdraw cash (according to the teller a lot of the depositors were withdrawing their funds from AIG instruments, which I didn’t know you could get at TCF ), that they were short of cash yesterday. The teller’s hands were trembling. We wanted the content of a checking account that had $4917.52 in it. They could only give us $3000 in cash (fifties - they were out of anything bigger), and we were given a cashiers check for the balance, which we took to another branch and cashed. Everything was as calm as the sea on a moonlit night at that branch. We were going to withdraw our CD also, but the branch manager talked to us about it. We’re waiting until 10-2-08 when it matures in order to switch. Creepy, huh ?
“…but a financial meltdown would have been far worse for the economy and the cause of capitalism.”
But doesn’t capitalism allow poorly run businesses to fail? These interventions may do many things, but I don’t see them advancing the cause of capitalism.
I’ll go with:
Switzerland for the watches
Spain for the residual colonialism
I don’t have a good third but I’m thinking at one time some of thosenow third world African nations were prosperous. How about:
South Africa
SA wasn’t even a country back then. The only time the African nations were prosperous was under colonialism, it was was only a small group of people who were wealthy. My guess would be the Ottoman Empire
I want to thank you for your post yesterday.
I read it outloud to my hubby and son.
Twice actually, as they kept asking questions before I could finish!
This motivated my son to pick up a book (gulp) “The Options Playbook” by Tradeking.
Extra Flying White Pony for you!
Leigh
er, don’t know how it ended up down here - This one is for you FPSS
Cool FPSS!
That was fun!
Thank you, all.
You’re more than welcome. Least I can do in return for everything I’ve learnt.
The efficient market theory — the updated version of laissez fare capitalism — is back into the academic genie’s bottle from which it escaped. And the Greenspan doctrine’s twenty-year reign (1987-2008) is over, given way to panic-driven socialism. R.I.P.
TOP TEN
MarketWatch’s top stories of the week
By Michelle Donley, MarketWatch
Last update: 7:37 p.m. EDT Sept. 19, 2008
A lot of questions were answered this week. Almost as many, in fact, as were raised.
For instance, we now know that free markets, hailed over the years as essential to the success and world dominance of the U.S. financial system, are neither as free nor as beneficial as some believed. It also seems fairly clear that the idea that markets could police themselves — peddled by a long list of government and institutional heavyweights for the past three decades — is farcical.
We know, too, that hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars will now be used to help clean up a mess made by a few thousand overpaid, overconfident bankers. And we know this is less than the cleanup would have cost if the government had not stepped in this week to make a series of radical changes to the way U.S. capitalism works.
At least, we think we know that.
Michelle Donley knows it all now. Even the future.
I am in Mount Sinai, NY (on Long Island). And, my wife wants to live in a better house. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding rentals? For our past two rentals, the best I could do is work through Realtors. I think the disadvantages of this approach are obvious.
What local newspapers have good listings (on line)? Are there good management companies in the area?
Yes, I have lived here for nearly four years and I am still seeking advice.
I wish I could just concentrate on engineering and not worry about anything else (housing, stock investments for retirement, etc.) ;-(.
“I wish I could just concentrate on engineering and not worry about anything else (housing, stock investments for retirement, etc.)”
So who do you want looking out for you?
Tell ya what. Send me your entire paycheck each month, along with all your savings and investments, and I will worry about all those other things for you.
Oh, wait. Obama already has that in his platform.
That reminds me of an incident with a co-worker in 2001 or 2002. We were talking about what was taking place in the company at the time. We were discussing who was moving up and who was on the chopping block. My co-worker said, “I don’t pay attention to those things. I leave that up to you guys.”
I told him, “if you don’t pay attention to what is happening around you then somebody else will. Don’t be surprised when things don’t go your way.” He was always moved around at the whim of management, shocked by his fate. The rest of us always knew it was coming. Information is still the most valuable commodity. Personal relationships are the most valuable possessions we have.
RE: I wish I could just concentrate on engineering and not worry about anything else
Ditch your wife.
And your wish shall be fulfilled.
I’m not familiar with your area - here’s one tool.
http://longisland.craigslist.org/search/apa?query=Mount+Sinai&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max&bedrooms=
Leigh
Press Releases
Pioneer Community Bank, Inc., and the Citizens Savings Bank Acquire All Deposits of Ameribank, Inc., Northfork, West Virginia
All Insured and Uninsured Deposits Transferred to Acquiring Banks
Ameribank, Inc., was closed today by the Office of the Thrift Supervision and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) was named receiver. The FDIC entered into purchase and assumption agreements with Pioneer Community Bank, Inc., Iaeger, West Virginia, and The Citizens Savings Bank, Martins Ferry, Ohio to take over all of the deposits and certain assets of Ameribank, Inc., Northfork, West Virginia.
Ameribank has five branches located in West Virginia and three branches located in Ohio. Pioneer Community Bank, Inc., Iaeger, West Virginia will assume all deposits for the five branches located in West Virginia. The Citizens Savings Bank, Martins Ferry, Ohio will assume all deposits for the three branches located in Ohio.”
FDCI
Another one bites the dust
didnt see a post from the big guy yesterday.
everything ok in the land of milk and honey?
your call on WM and DSL allowed me to double the money in three days….anything I can do for ya?
in your debt,
the plowman.
I missed Hoz’s call on WM & DSL… When/what were they? My WM shorts got KILLED on Friday. I hadn’t seen any reason to close them out, since I thought they might really fail–though I did get out of much of mine on Thurs AM thinking the downward leg was done for now…
California’s jobless rate increases; county lower
Most losses reported in construction, real estate
By Mike Freeman
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
September 20, 2008
California’s jobless rate surged to 7.7 percent last month, the highest level since 1996, as the economic spasms from the housing bust continued.
More than 1.4 million workers were unemployed – up 61,000 from July and 413,000 from a year ago, the state Employment Development Department reported yesterday. Led by losses in construction and real estate, payrolls were down 72,700 jobs from a year earlier.
San Diego County performed better than the state. August unemployment locally dipped slightly to 6.4 percent, but the rate was significantly higher than last August’s 4.8 percent.
Will this move up the estimate of March 2009 for California’s unemployment fund to run dry?
Our governor Dark Vader’s economic vaudeville show is sans laughs now.
I’ll bet he’s wondering how to work some good old fashioned suspension of disbelief into this mess, something along the lines of him having a gun with an endless supply of bullets in the chamber, while he kills off 137 bad guys all armed with AK-47’s, over the course of the movie.
In the movie Commando he hid behind flowers and they somehow stopped the bullets that were aimed at him. He is a miracle worker.
Well, he’s hid behind a ’ssshrubery, on occasion…
Yes, that was a bad movie, but at least he rescued his little girl and got a new, smokin’ hot girlfriend to boot.
Plus, if I recall correctly, she was a stewardess, so after they got married ( in the future ), he could get airmiles.
Funny how you would never know judging by all the expensive luxury cars on the road.
Most, if not all are leased from Potemkin Motors…
I’m not surprised considering many of the educated and able people leave the state due to the high taxes and waves of illegal immigrants and home-grown lowlifes trashing up all the neighborhoods.
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105802/Street-Scenes:-The-Players-Remaking-Financial-World?mod=weekend
“Mr. Paulson, 62 years old, has used this expanded power to set a precedent that’s now coming back to haunt him.”
To haunt him? What do these reporters smoke? This was the plan all along. These boys now have more money, more power and more ability to game the system. It seems like there are no ghosts haunting Bubblehead Paulson and the rest of these gangsters.
Yesterday, Charlie Gasparino called Paulson the most powerful man in America.
He mentioned that Paulson had this sort of Svenglalian persona when he was at GS.
Oh yeah, and Charlie already has a book deal based on this week’s Wall Street happenings. I thought of you, Ben.
Hanky Panky is a thug like Putin, except he’s smarter about it
‘I hope you all pledged allegiance to The Fed this morning. You don’t want to make them angry as they continue to consume more and more power.’
This reminds me of a response I made to a post yesterday that was going on about a similar vein:
Me: The question that I struggled with a while back was, why do some posters here want so desperately to think bad things are happening to them, against their supposed will.
My favorite Calvin and Hobbs cartoon was one where they are sledding down a hill, and pondering the question, “Is ignorance bliss?” I don’t think the real question was one of knowing or not knowing, but where one puts a life’s focus.
My first bookkeeping job was for a surgeon. I did the payroll, and he made a lot and I didn’t. But I got to see the taxes he paid. One day as he signed a huge check to the IRS we talked about it. He said, “as long as you’re paying taxes you are making money.” That made me think, because I have known people consumed with the idea that they are being ripped off by the government, etc. But here was a guy paying much more than most, and he chose to get up each day, do good work for his patients, be content with the ample pay he got, and the happy life it afforded his family.
I don’t understand why some people purposefully decide to identify with a group like “taxpayer”, solely for the reason of putting themselves in a category of victim. I’ve known a lot of variations of this; people that are wrapped up in social or racial injustice. People that go on about corporate misdeeds or environmental wrongs. It seems to me this is a “pick your poison” question and I don’t see the advantage.
What has always interested me about the housing bubble, is it is possibly the biggest financial event of our lifetimes. I look at it as a bizarre mania that happened, for a lot of different circumstances and reasons.
I get asked almost every day, “why is this happening” or “what caused that.” And there are lots of different ways to view almost all of it. But in my opinion, at the end of the sled ride we all end up at the bottom of the hill. And our experience, or how we chose to spend our energies can be positive and constructive, or not.
Ben, in October 1917 (November in the United States) there was a minor skirmish in a school for girls in Petrograd, later renamed Leningrad. A small group of very well disciplined fanatics stated that they had now taken over the Russian government. Most of the city shrugged and figured it was just another minor political drama. Most never even twitched from their sleep. In Moscow they had no idea that anything had happened.
It would take 74 years to undo what that small group of fanatics did. And 91 years later that nation still has to deal with the legacy of that small group of men on that cold night. It seems to me something big is happening right now. Forgive me if I twitch from my bed.
That group of ragtag people were at least educated and principled in Marxian economics, although Marxism was worse than the problem they were trying to erase.
There are very few intelligent people in America these days to pull off something like that. Multiculturalism and failing public education is partly to blame.
Imagine if everyone over the age of 11 was well aware of the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights in the Constitution, and maybe also Lysander Spooner’s “No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority.”
Better yet, imagine if people understood that it costs the same amount to make a $1 paper bill as it does to make a $100 bill. That’s an easier thing.
Passiveness and ignorance in the American citizen is all the established politicians anticipate and they nourish it well.
How many of you have voted consistently for libertarian candidates since you were eligible to vote. I voted for GWB in 2004 - mea culpa, and I am very sorry. I was afraid of Al Quaeda back then and more afraid of John sKerry.
A 4ell! Today is a good day to buy a few ounces of gold.
“Marxian economics”
That’s an oxymoron. Just ask anybody working in military intelligence and they will tell you so.
Now that was funny…..inadvertently or not
“There are very few intelligent people in America these days to pull off something like that.”
Your post confuses me. Do you think the Bolsheviks were able to take over because Russia was a nation of well educated masses? It was just the opposite. Russia was a nation of backwards, illiterate peasants. That is what made the job so simple. The Russian peasants simply wanted to be able to eat microwave meals, listen to hip-hop and watch American Idol.
If you compare American cowboys to Russia peasants, Russian peasants were your Harvard graduates… Even now in Russia people know American literature better then people in New York and San Francisco…
The Russian peasants back then couldn’t even read and most never even attended school. The Russian people today are better educated, but it was the opposite back then.
Leo Tolstoy was one of those peasants Dear Jerry…
“Leo Tolstoy was one of those peasants Dear Jerry…”
??
Count Tolstoy was not a peasant.
Also, his poor wife wrote out his manuspripts by hand. Can you imaging transcribing War & Peace with a pen?
Let’s hear it for wives!
Leo Tolstoy? Oh, you mean Count Lev Nikolayevich Tolstoy, of the well-known family of old Russian nobility?
Thanks, Wikipedia…
Tolstoy was not a peasant.
The Tolstoys were Russian nobility and members of the Russian aristocracy.
The Russian peasants of 1917 wanted to “eat microwave meals, listen to hip hop, and watch American Idol”? Now there’s foresight…
That is obviouse that Leo Tolstoy was a nobel man thank you for knowledge , but he was close to peasants, like other nobel people , they build schools in country sites and many peasants went to so called “reading schools” , but in todays America many “cowboys” (as i know 40% of US population) doesnt read read over second grade level. Many of them went to buy houses for $600000.00 without knowledge of counting till 100… that is the cause of most of the problems in current America…
Arnold Toynbe has a work ” Sunset of civilisation” and he was predicting that it is going to happen, like it happened in Great Roman Empire, they thought they are the greatest, that is why their empire failed…
Today U.S. is hoping that China or Russia will land them money? Why? What happen with American enginuity?
Instead of working hard, Americans are buying houses for $500000 in hope to sell it for one million $$$, is this the waycapitalism will work, just sit at home wait until house price will appriciate… What kind of wealth are we creating guys…
Where are new Bill Gates and others…
America did not deserve to elect a President that we currently have…
“Multiculturalism and failing public education is partly to blame.”
Amen, brothah! I cringe every time I hear the word “diversity”. “Unity” is what’s needed. We have been carefully divided up into warring factions, culturally. Divide and conquer.
There is a remarkable suspicion and paranoia shared among people who believe that diversity as a weakness and not a strength. They would rather eat their young than suffer any kind of hardship that might make them stronger.
Their resistance to healthy differences carries over to resistance to any new thoughts and ideas that challenge the Ministry of Truth’s version of reality.
They put their own wants over society’s needs, and share the same unshakeable belief that the world owes them something. No one questioned their worldview because it has been so successful…until it suddenly wasn’t.
I sort of see your point but kindly disagree. Japan has very little diversity and has a lot of harmony.
In the 1950s my parents would never lock their doors to their house. We knew all our neighbors and had many front yard late evening get-togethers. The men mostly fought in WWII. Families went to the same church.
In the mid-60s my parents started locking their doors. Very concerned about stories about hippies on acid in small towns all over the USA. Society changed quite a bit. Welfare programs began in the mid-1960s, encouraging irresponsibility.
The idiocracy came about in the 1960s.
I think impressions of the 50s varied a lot depending on where you lived and the color of your skin.
Bravoo…!
” I voted for GWB in 2004 - mea culpa, and I am very sorry”
My wife was a rocket scientist @ a defense firm (where 50% of B.i.M’s income comes from), and we were in a bowling league with p.h.d.’s and other frighteningly smart people, all in the employ of the war machine.
They were all die-hard republicans that were voting for the continuation of their high-paying jobs, not their country…
It kinda shocked me how easily the intelligentsia was bought off, for just 30 pieces of Silver.
All it takes is one vote for the establishment and then you are not in with the “in” crowd.
“It would take 74 years to undo what that small group of fanatics did. And 91 years later that nation still has to deal with the legacy of that small group of men on that cold night. It seems to me something big is happening right now. Forgive me if I twitch from my bed.”
The financial repercussions of the coming economic storm should be survivable, though the effects could linger for a generation. The greater danger is in responding in ways that prove more harmful and take longer to undo. That’s my greatest fear as this event unfolds. It could happen here and it might.
Agree with you on this, Greg.
I want to start by saying you have made an excellent insight about ending up at the bottom of the hill regardless of our attitude on the way down.
However, we are all victims and must complain about it and fight against it or we will be even more victimized in the future. Having a good attitude in a bad situation helps you get through it, but we should not become complacent in our exploitation.
Exactly right.
Ben — Your circumspection is always admirable.
Who wants my stock portfolio?
Think of it as being positioned for future growth.
I agree . Ben’s advice to try to make the best of bad situations that can’t be changed is right of course . Watching this drama is like
reading a bad novel in which the bad guy wins out .You keep hoping that the novel will end with the good guy winning in the end ,instead you get a new chapter .
My father used to get frustrated with his children (myself among others) when we clamoured for things beyond our financial reach as a family. After the usual arguments failed to shut us up, the discusssion always ended with an emphatic, “NO!”, after which he would look at us sternly and utter,”If you can’t be happy with what you have, be thankful for what you escape.” We’d look at each other wondering what the H@ll he was talking about. Many years after he’d left this world we understood, and remain thankful, if not entirely happy.
Thanks for the Calvin and Hobbs infusion- ‘The Days are just Packed!’
My apologies, Hobbes
My father use to have a effective way of dealing with his kids (including me ) when we started bitching about wanting something we really didn’t need .
He use to say ,”Great ,so what are you going to do about earning what you want ?”
Last month I went to the carnival. There was a barker guessing peoples’ weight. Sometimes he won, mostly he lost. It cost a couple bucks to play and when he lost he gave the player a cheap toy. It didn’t matter if he won or lost; he just wanted to get more people to play because even if he guessed wrong he made more than the cost of the worthless toy he gave out.
The moral of the story is that you can’t win a rigged game. That’s the game the Federal Reserve makes us all play with their fractional reserve/fiat/ponzi finance scheme.
Good for you Ben. Thanks to you my big old trees are still standing and the development behind me sits with overgrown weeds and streets to nowhere. All those beautiful trees are gone; kids no longer ride the ponies around, they moved out east of town. I did not take the million dollars, and I feel really happy I still have my quiet life and the horses. Yes, sometimes I do put my armes around these big old trees and hold a pine seed in my hand and just smile. Thanks again Ben.
Barb
Buttttt you tossed way a MILLION dollars….how could you be so anti social ?
Why you could have bought a Million dollar apartment in Manhattan overlooking a graffiti filled court yard that has a tree in it!
LOL
If you are from “Bend” Oregon I can understand your frustration…Just amazing the amount of speculation that has occured there…
And thank you, too, Barb TreeHugger. Most sincerely, ‘thank you’.
Taxpayer is just one of the victim categories claimed in this mess. We also have:
-Home owner (oh, the poor home owner may lose his/her house!)
-Illiterate and/or non-English-speaker (oh, he/she couldn’t read the mortgage papers!)
-Uninformed (oh, he/she didn’t understand what he/she was signing!)
-Gullible (oh, he/she didn’t realize that getting a mortgage 10x income was a mistake - after all, the “experts” said it was possible!)
-The kids (oh, the poor kids will lose their bedrooms! The horror to think they may have to raise them in a rental!)
I could go on and on. I try not to act or speak like a victim. But if I were to categorize my status, I’d say I’m a “Responsible saver priced out of real estate based solely on lack of a dual income”. You know, the category that has no real voice anyway - partly because we aren’t viewed as being “in crisis” and partly because we just don’t constantly complain like everyone else does. My 401k and IRAs are getting abused just like everyone else’s. But whatareyagonnado? I knew this would happen. I stayed informed. None of this recent “shocking” news is shocking to me (or anyone here) at all. I still think dragging it out is the worst of the 2 options, but I’m not in control of it.
Anyway, I’m offically on vacation as of 5pm Friday and off to Disney World next week. Life is good.
Have fun at DW. We’re planning our trip with my 84-year old father and stepmother in Jan. 09. They’e thrilled.
How could your 401k and IRA be losing money if you knew this would happen? I am so happy that I found this blog years ago and have parked my money in safe (Vanguard) money market funds. I may only earn 2.17% but I can sleep at night!
The rise of dual-income households since 1985 or so - and all the largesse that has gone along with it - is a chief reason (and perhaps THE reason) for the sad state of our economy. Every facet of the economy wildly skewed in a very short period of time as a result (10-20 years).
It amazes me how few people have even bothered to think about such things. I guess it’s up to you, me and maybe 10 other people worldwide to broach the subject.
I think why many people may be complaining is that they know that not everybody is going to be at the bottom of the hill. Perhaps people believe that they may have been pushed down that hill on an sled ride from hell, and the ones at fault will still be standing at the top whilst the rest are struggling to get back up. Not everyone has the faith of Job.
We do get paid in Federal Reserve notes, so render unto Caesar is still the rule of the day as far as the taxpayer goes. I guess some are content with that, and that we can’t do better.
I have a vision of Ben as that guy in the Far Side cartoon down in he-doulblehockeysticks. He’s whistling as he labors, and one devil turns to the other and says “You know, we’re just not getting to that guy.”
Serious Ben - you remind me of my boss. It’s good to have a good perspective and outlook - sometimes it’s frustrating for others to see people that way. That being said - I would second what some others have said - if you get too complacent in your acceptance, you can get taken advantage of. That definitely goes for the citizenry as a whole, which is the sum of its parts.
Ben, I think you make a good point about taking responsibility for your own destiny. I think most of those who post on this board have already taken whatever financial actions they deem appropriate to either weather this storm or profit from it.
What I see as much more dire for the future of this country is the acceptance of by both parties that there is no area of human endeavor that the government can not be involved in. A significant part of this mania was caused by government promotion of home ownership, yet despite this unfolding disaster we have not heard anyone in either party re-think the principle that government should be subsidizing housing.
We have seen two unelected government officials become the two most powerful men in this country. Our elected officials have totally abdicated their responsibilities to advocate for the interests of their constituents. Are we able to live our day to day lives? Of course we are. But, all of us are affected by the quality of governance we have. This country is becoming less of a democratic republic and more a place where power is concentrated in the hands of unelected bureaucrats. To me that is something to complain about.
Revenge is a dish best served cold, and the only way to make those economic hooligans words and deeds work to your advantage, is to divorce yourself from the reality of their actions.
Paulson & Bernanke have the Midas Touch in reverse, everything they touch turns into guilt, not gilt.
guiltstone‘Revenge is a dish best served cold,…’
I like my recipe better: the revenge divided in half, half to be served as soon as possible, while it’s still hot, and the rest saved, to be slowly dished out, like deli-meats. A revenge smorgasbord, see.
A friend who had a friend do him wrong did the most heinous thing imaginable to his ex-friend.
He was a high school teacher, and waited a few years and then planted a seed of unfaithfulness in the middle of his ex-friend’s marriage, by having 16 year old female students call their house from a pay phone (this was 20 years ago) and if she answered, they asked “Is Andy home” and she’d say no, he’s at work, and the co-eds would then say, “well, he’s supposed to go out with me sometime this week, can you tell him I can’t make it?”, or something else along those lines.
It took just 3 months to wreck a perfectly good marriage…
If a stupid prank like this could wreck a marriage in three months then the marriage wasn’t anywhere close to being “perfectly good”.
Combo,
I beg your pardon.
Twenty years ago - well - think litigious nature of the nation. (Heck, that’s true now)!
How low another human will go to plant the seeds of doubt in another is downright scary, for many are programmed.
And again, I beg your pardon, and do not mean to get into the joust you and Alad enjoy.
Leigh
Geez Ben, I’ve got a cold and it’s difficult to reflect on such “deep” themes this A.M…
“…there are lots of different ways to view almost all of it.”
“I’ve known a lot of variations of this; people that are wrapped up in social or racial injustice. People that go on about corporate misdeeds or environmental wrongs.” “It seems to me this is a “pick your poison” question and I don’t see the advantage.”
ME: It’s been my experience that people readily recognize hypocrisy and the people who stealthily advocate it. A very useful tool, for sorting out the truth & honesty of the person looking you in the eye, telling you a story.
I have no idea how people get “involved” in things in life… really I don’t. But if I were to come home one night and find my cousin hanging by his neck in a tree…it might have an effect on me. Was I the victim? no. Or, if as in the case of some families that take their child to the hospital for something routine…only to have a horrible “mistake” happen and render their child a vegetable….only to find out that their local gov’t representatives…signed into law a bill limiting financial recourse to a maximum lifetime compensation of $250,000. I might begin to think that it is good… not to have any thing bad happen to you.
I know nothing really much about Venezuela, it’s people, or it’s current leader Chavez. I hear that Cheney-Shrub particularly do not like how he goes willy-nilly NATIONALIZING businesses in his “domain”…now I have to ask: Do Cheney-Shrub have any “creditability” based on what was allowed to happen over the last…what 3 weeks? Should I have “confidence” & trust” in what comes out of their mouths? I know a little more about China, the problems they have having with lead & baby formula…is not a surprise to myself at all. Would I buy a can of mandarin oranges that are MADE IN CHINA…no. Do I know that the oranges are “tainted”…no. Why then? Because, I have no “faith” in them. I do not “trust” them…not at any price.
As I child I learned that “life” plays tricks on you…as I’ve gone along for a young 51 years…I find life has not run out of “tricks”…and yet all along I was told: Tricks are for kids!
Most apple juice (or is it apple sauce?) sold in the USA comes from China.
Who knows how much crap we’re buying unaware?
Ben, your posts about “taxpayers” always polarize me.
I don’t consider myself a victim, but I would like to live my day-to-day life without worrying about a bunch of asshats making it difficult for me. In this scenario, I am an upset taxpayer. Housing has been the biggest pain in my ass since I graduated college 8 years ago. I’ve done nothing but refute HGTV Nazi’s until thankfully, with operations like yours, the evidence became undeniable.
On the flip, I think all of us here are frontier agents. I’d say we’re all leading the charge into the unknown. Just reading this site and understanding it is enough to place you in this category. Like I said a few months ago, I have a friend who inherited a paid-for house in Queens, only to HELOC it to pay for a wedding. And now he has the cajones to say I have housing issues! And this guy has a freakin’ masters in mathematics. :barf
Oooh, sledding analogy. I’m from the MidWest and I’m very familiar with sledding.
Yes, the trip down the hill can be many things - smooth, bumpy, lighting fast, sludgy snow slow, out of control - but it was always fun. Even when you crashed or had to bail or smashed into a tree. (okay, the tree wasn’t fun… I’ll admit)
But as you said, you always ended up at the bottom of the hill.
Then of course, you looked up that massive hill that only took a few seconds to go down and see where you came from and decide if you want to spend the time and energy to climb/run/struggle back to the top to do it all over again.
And if you stand there and ponder too long, some out of control ***hole comes rocketing down the hill and creams you!
What’s my point?
What is my point…. I guess I didn’t have one. But I do like sledding.
And a quick note about assets. For me, my most important asset - the thing I value the most, the thing I cherish and protect the most - is time. My time. I figure, we all have a limited amount and none of us knows how much we have. Could run out at any second. Seen enough people go unexpectedly to know this. So I try to make the most of it and enjoy it and spend it wisely with my loving wife and friends and family. (hmmm, makes me wonder if MY time is wasting THEIR time and they could be doing better things…. so much to ponder….)
I’m just trying to look for the boulders and make out the trees on the way down the hill, snow flurries and all.
I agree with you Ben.
I am interested in the details of RTC 2 as they affect MY decisions.
I am interested in the deflation/hyperinflation outcome of all this as it affects what I will decide.
I hope for a lot of analysis this coming week from the many posters here who have incredible insight.
Here here!
Ahh Calvin and Hobbes my favorite comic strip of all time. Sure do miss them. Parents, Calvin, Susie, and Hobbes, wise beyond their years.
People who invent or exaggerate their problems are treated like hypochondriacs. But even supposed hypochondriacs have a real illness: in the best case scenario, it is an incapacitating illness of the mind. In the worst case scenario the problem is real, but the patient’s broken approach to discussing it creates skepticism in the listerner.
Listening to someone’s problems is like being a doctor. You have to decide if you have the education, motivation, and experience to make a difference. If you don’t, send them to someone who does, or take the opportunity to educate yourself about what might actually be happening.
Everyone deserves a fresh and unbiased ear in the beginning, even if you think you’ve heard it all before. The problem with discussing things online is that you can only communicate based on how well someone else can express himself in writing, and how attentive and insightful you can be at reading.
I don’t know if we are our brother’s keeper, but I do know that we all eventually wind up in the same place. Dismissing and denying our neighbor’s opinions only keeps us groping around alone in self-imposed darkness, but talking and listening to each other gives us the opportunity to fight our battles together.
The problem, as I see it, is that there are two different kinds of Americans - those who exploit and those who are exploited. I enjoy looking at the bright side of things as much as anyone, but being part of the exploited crowd and having little power to stop the exploiters is a sad situation to be in.
SPECIAL REPORT: FINANCIAL SHAKE-UP
Collapses create nervous consumers, risking a deep recession
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Sunday, September 21, 2008
Are we in a period more like the stock market crash of 1987 or — gulp — the crash of 1929?
That’s the impromptu debate that Jared Faellaci said developed during a recent business meeting with clients and colleagues.
“I’m in the middle,” Faellaci, a 36-year-old business development manager with accounting firm Deloitte, said last week after a flight to Atlanta. He still sees some “positives” in the economy, but clients are cutting their spending and Wall Street is increasingly looking like “a house of cards that was overinflated,” said Faellaci, who lives in Dothan, Ala.
“This thing could get really ugly,” he fears.
Such fears are no longer idle water-cooler talk. If the seemingly nonstop pageant of takeovers and collapses of big financial institutions causes widespread anxiety, such pessimism could lead to a deeper recession, assuming the U.S. is already in one as some economists believe. By causing consumers, who represent more than two-thirds of the economy, to cut back spending, corporate profits would decline further. That, in turn, could aggravate an already skittish Wall Street.
“By causing consumers, who represent more than two-thirds of the economy, to cut back spending…”
That’s why the absolute best case scenario right now for the average joe is economic stagnation. Even if joe can “keep” his house he will never be able to consume as he has been accustomed to in the past decade. Since so much of the hyper-consumer economy was based on limitless growth - the fallout, even if it is “merely” stagnation, will be quite serious.
“a house of cards that was overinflated”
Sounds like an Archie Bunkerism.
Greenspan to Stephanopoulos: This is ‘By Far’ the Worst Economic Crisis He’s Seen in His Career
September 14, 2008 11:07 AM
ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos Reports: Former Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan said this morning that this is “by far” the worst economic crisis he has ever seen. “There’s no question that this is in the process of outstripping anything I’ve seen, and it still is not resolved and it still has a way to go,” he said in an exclusive “This Week with George Stephanopoulos” interview.
Greenspan also noted, “let’s recognize that this is a once-in-a-half-century, probably once-in-a-century type of event.”
Looking ahead, Greenspan changed a previous prediction on whether the economy is headed towards a recession. When asked if the chances of escaping a recession were greater than 50 percent, Greenspan responded “no, I think it is less than 50 percent.”
“ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos Reports: Former Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan said this morning that this is “by far” the worst economic crisis he has ever seen.”
I think that statement should have been amended to read, “Chair Alan Greenspan said this morning that this is “by far, the worst economic crisis he has ever caused.” All better!
My thoughts exactly.
How is it that Greenspan correctly sees this as a once in a century event, yet somehow is able to conclude that it may or may not cause a recession? That boggles my mind.
“How is it that Greenspan correctly sees this as a once in a century event, yet somehow is able to conclude that it may or may not cause a recession? That boggles my mind.”
You should have been asking the questions, not that tool Stephanopoulos. Has anyone, instead, asked him the odds of a depression? Are there any once in a century financial events that have ended well?
0% is less than 50%. (The man is sly.)
Backlash Over Bailouts Grows in Congress, Wall Street (Update1)
By Matthew Benjamin and Brian Faler
More Photos/Details
Sept. 19 (Bloomberg) — As the U.S. government takes stronger measures to stabilize financial markets, some former Federal Reserve officials, lawmakers and Wall Street executives are saying too much has already been done.
“Every time they intervene, they do more harm than good,” said Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital in Darien, Connecticut, a brokerage that manages $1 billion.
Critics of the rescues agree that government actions, such as those that prevented the failures of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and American International Group Inc., can’t postpone the inevitable worsening of housing and financial markets. They say the bailouts by the Fed and Treasury also encourage future reckless risk-taking by investors.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aIaOyCf.U_bU&refer=news
This is just cheap talk to give Congressmen political cover for rubber stamping whatever kind of bailout measure comes out of this weekend’s deliberations.
When they shotgunned Bear, lowered rates, and extended the alphabet soup of credit lines they altered time and consequences. Dick Fuld and everyone around him thought he had more time and would not have to pay the consequences. Ultimately, when Lehman failed everyone was shocked and awed and the entire financial system went into meltdown because most participants were unprepared.
“Ultimately, when Lehman failed everyone was shocked and awed and the entire financial system went into meltdown because most participants were unprepared.”
A precursor to what happens when the pain spreads from Wall Street to Main Street? Most people seem both unprepared and unaware, a very bad combination. Were people in the late 20’s as unprepared and unaware of what was about to confront them?
It’s worse than unprepared. The only preparation most have had are reassurances that the economy is booming, and will not go into recession. For those not paying attention to underlying reality, this past week in financial markets must seem like a tornado that struck out of a clear blue sky.
Now that a few might finally be paying attention, do they yet have any idea just how exceptional the events of the past few weeks have been,much less what that may portend for their future?
In the past few days, acquaintances I haven’t talked to in years, have called me out of the blue, asking how to buy Gold?
People are hep to what’s happening…
Like someone said, “if you think the problems are bad, wait until you see our solutions”
Most dont know what historic event transpired on Friday, worse yet, belief that the government saved the economy from recession.
“Were people in the late 20’s as unprepared and unaware of what was about to confront them?”
I started reading “The Great Crash - 1929″ last night by Galbraith. Don’t kid yourself to think that the people of the 1920s were any smarter or more enlightened than people of today. I could cross out the dates and rewrite in 2000 - 2008. The book wouldn’t change at all.
After what’s happened the past few weeks, I’ve been rereading parts of Frederick Lewis Allen’s “Only Yesterday:
An Informal History of the 1920’s”
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/ALLEN/cover.html
Then, as now, the big players thought they knew more and had more power than they actually did. I’ve not seen much written about what the masses were thinking at the time, but given their actions and reactions, there’s little to suggest they were particularly any better prepared even if they might have been aware.
I find it particularly annoying how so many supposed experts have so little understanding of bubbles and the GD, almost to the point of willful ignorance. Were those that foresaw the problems of the 20’s and 30’s as shunned by the media as those now?
“I could cross out the dates and rewrite in 2000 - 2008. The book wouldn’t change at all.”
That’s so true about that book, it was kinda creepy IMHO.
Yesterday, I posted a rather large article I wrote about short-selling, options and the like, etc.
Here’s a followup, this time from the MSM: SEC Considers Revising Shorting Ban in Options Market.
If you exempt the options-market, you’ve pretty much neutralized the rule. The rule simply doesn’t exist.
You just buy puts, and ask to be settled “in kind” rather “in cash”. There’s your short position right there.
The whole thing smacks of desperation. I’m not covering my shorts, and as I said, if you have the “balls of steel” and the confidence in your bets, neither should you.
FPSS
Just take a vacation for a week or two.
There were some incredible trades I would have liked to have done yesterday. But not able to short. I am sure that is true for most everyone.
In the MSM this morn, the blabber is the huge Dow rally. Well as Mr. Kedrosky points out, the US was the weakest of all international exchanges with the DJIA being the worst performer.
I do not watch CNBC, but apparently the channel showed a graph of the 60% drop in the Pakistan stock exchange after they banned any short selling in June. The Pakistan market did have a nice 3 day bump before the fall.
The short selling holiday is a red herring. Wall street was simply in meltdown. Heck, the whole system was in meltdown. WSJ:
Short sales of Morgan Stanley rose to 2.9% of the market value of the company Sept. 16, up from 2% at the beginning of September, though it was as high as 7% in July, according to Data Explorers Inc., a research firm. Short sales of Merrill Lynch & Co. rose as high as 3.8% of the broker’s market value last week, from under 2% in early September, though it topped 9% in July.
hoz and pussycat, you’re two of the posters I pay close attention to. Thank you for your insight into what has happened and what is happening right now. I have a good friend who’s rather clueless about investing, yet has over a million in the market right now. I’ve told him that this might be a nice time to get out (particularly after the bump over the last few days). Is this cogent advice on my part? Or will the market rocket up another 1000 points?
Having a million or billion in the stock market does not say what he has.
There are always stocks that will go up. There are good financial managers. Harvard’s endowment is up 5%+ this year and Yale’s is up a shade less (first time Harvard’s return has beaten Yale’s return).
Some funds are up 35% others like the S&P 500 funds are down.
If he is not worried, then I would not worry for him. I think the US markets are going down hard. The earnings will be dismal for a few years. The US consumer is not likely to generate earnings and exports are drying up.
Where will bank earnings come from? Where will investment houses earnings come from? Deleveraging not only means current losses, it means future earnings are gone. I hope this helps, but it is your friends decision and she/he should do homework. I have made many mistakes in my life and I hope I am wrong now.
I agree that banning short selling won’t prop up the stock market, but how does pointing to Pakistan show that our stock market won’t be propped up? Did the government of Pakistan offer $700 BILLION (currently) to buy bad debt? The short sale banning business is just something to get people to take their eye off the ball - and it appears in some ways to be working.
You don’t know how to do “long division”.
You have a $10-40T problem (we can quibble about this.)
The US is throwing $700B at the problem. This is as a net debtor nation.
I leave you to do the long division, and count the number of zeroes, and I’m not talking about the zeroes in Congress neither.
Being the one who started that thread yesterday - I hear you. I am planning to ride it out. I hope I don’t get any margin calls (that would be a new thing for me) - but I don’t plan to cover until I do.
Everything going on right now smacks of desperation. There’s only so many emergency measures that can be taken before they run out of options, and then it’s down, down, down IMO.
Thanks for your excellent post yesterday.
You’re welcome!
Read the post below which just appeared even though I posted it ages ago! Hmmmmmmm … poor Ben, his server is getting pounded with sp*m.
If you can’t short then those prices are not real. It’s that simple. You would not have gotten those “bargains” in a real market (or would’ve been hard-pressed to anyway.) Same for everyone else.
It’s a simple short-squeeze, and not even a very subtle one. Even if they ban shorts completely, no fundamental information has changed.
A technical mechanism cannot change the outcomes. It’s a bit like blaming the doctor who reports the diagnosis of cancer for the disease.
Around 11am, I just got bored. I went off to see Lawrence of Arabia on the big screen. After that, I invited my friends for a “farewell to summer” supper (fried zucchini blossoms, zucchini soup, and pasta with zucchini and mint, few bottles of wine.)
Screw this! I’m off for two weeks (as you said.)
Well said Ben.
Look what is bubbling up in the MSM; articles about barbarous relics! A few questions: why now, are people getting nervous? Why does the .gov spend so much time, money, and effort guarding useless buggy whips? Inquring minds want to know…
As stocks plummet and many realize they don’t understand how their money is invested, some on Wall Street are turning to gold as a haven.
Who can blame them? Gold is something you can see, hold and fully understand. In the last two days, the price of gold shot up $110 to $892.70 an ounce.
Just a few blocks away from all the turmoil and panic of the stock market sits the world’s largest stockpile of gold. Deep under the streets of Manhattan sits more gold than “James Bond” villain Goldfinger could ever imagine.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=5835433&page=1
“Gold is something you can see, hold and fully understand.”
People will get weird like that during times of financial panic. It is somehow reassuring that the U.S. has been in a state of panic on a regular basis throughout the course of its history, and has managed to recover each time. Your gamble that this is the time the U.S. will not recover seems to me like a bit of a long shot.
Good point. And this is precisely why financial advisors typically say that you should not allocate more than 10% of your investments in precious metals.
Statistically though, there will be an eventual crisis that cannot be overcome unless you have a stash of precious metals to get you through. Will it be this mortgage crisis? Or will it be a crisis in 10 years or 50 years?
I have a question. I keep seeing the 10% number. But does that same number hold for renters? A renter owns no hard asset that can stand as a hedge against inflation. Wouldn’t a slightly larger allocation to PMs be advisable? If not, what other hard asset, other than ammo, would be recommended as a hedge against the printing press?
In ordinary times, 10% of your assets in precious metals sounds about right.
What about extraordinary times?
NYCityBoy, that’s a good point. I would guess that 10% is referenced outside what real estate you own. Many financial advisers probably assume that if you have enough money to diversify into gold, you probably have consierable equity in a house. So it’s probably a higher percentage that should be in precious metals unless you consider stocks an inflation hedge. I’m assuming stocks are an inflation hedge.
I know one former girlfriend of mine in LA who has her own safe in her apartment. It’s a small safe and can probably be carried out by a common thief. I assume she keeps gold and important identity papers in the safe. The woman is from Hong Kong so she probably does not trust safe deposit boxes in banks. Not sure if it’s fireproof, but it better be!
it will recover, but so does a forest after a fire. Gold and other tangible assets are the seeds that sprout the new economy as the free market (even if it is black) continues to provide for the needs of the population.
BTW, I live in New York, and I consider the “New York Fed Gold Tour” to be an absolute must if you’re a visitor.
Even if you don’t care about the gold, the vault itself is marvel of engineering.
Built in 1921 directly into the bedrock of Manhattan (which is the only thing that can hold the weight of that much gold.) Largest gold reserves in the world (Fort Knox is smaller.)
Half the size of a football field, and the vault is airproof and waterproof. Doorway is 120 tons of steel and sinks 3/4″ into the ground. Door is locked via timers from the inside, and once locked cannot be opened from the outside at all. Only the timer will open it.
And get this?
It was built in 1921 and they have had NEVER to repair it, only do routine maintenance.
Totally unbelievable. Super cool.
Is that at the Fed building on Liberty Street? I lived by that fortress for 2 years. I didn’t know they allowed visitors.
Yeah, it’s the one on Liberty Street, and you have to book a tour a month (or more) in advance. They mail you the tickets, and the tickets are non-tranferable.
Whatever. It’s totally worth it.
I saw it based on your recommendations. Thanks for that! We even got a little treat: Carl W. Turnipseed (executive vice president in charge of the financial services group) gave most of the talk. It was very reassuring to learn that we didn’t need a currency backed by gold because we had something better: a currency backed by the full faith and credit of the US government. And that’s good because they’re backed by the Fed bank (who actually makes a profit for the government!11zerz). Naturally the Fed is sound because of all the treasury bills on its balance sheets…
But the engineering was definitely cool. Thanks again for the recommendation. We were easily able to get the tickets in advance since we knew about it.
Ben,
Great post and good perspective.
Ben
As you said yesterday I tried to warn people , you did and I consider one of the beneficiaries of your warning and your blog. After having been a home owner from 1984-2005 and a renter from 2006-2008 the stress that I have been able to avoid from declining home prices and the peace I have from being able to pay my bills and take care of my family has been worth much more than any home i will ever own.
When government officials surveyed the flailing American financial system this week, they didn’t see only a collapsed investment bank or the surrender of a giant insurance firm. They saw the circulatory system of the U.S. economy — credit markets — starting to fail.
Huddled in his office Wednesday with top advisers, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson watched his financial-data terminal with alarm as one market after another began go haywire. Investors were fleeing money-market mutual funds, long considered ultra-safe. The market froze for the short-term loans that banks rely on to fund their day-to-day business. Without such mechanisms, the economy would grind to a halt. Companies would be unable to fund their daily operations. Soon, consumers would panic.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122186563104158747.html
“They saw saw the circulatory system of the U. S. economy - credit markets - starting to fail.”
Another excellent case made for cash.
The cash markets froze. The reserve fund broke the buck. Putnam froze one of its money funds. Money funds were buying treasuries for zero just to preserve the buck. People were pulling their cash out of the system at an alarming rate. Oh the humanity!
“Companies would be unable to fund their daily operations.”
If you have a profitable company then why not just retain some profits until you have enough working capital. Then your business won’t be held hostage to shenanigans in the financial markets.
I’ve always hated the academic idea that it doesn’t matter whether a company is funded by equity or debt. Sure it doesn’t matter when things are in equilibrium, but when TSHTF one is a life preserver and the other is an anchor tied around your neck.
If you have working capital and place it into a money fund, you are essentially lending to businesses that don’t. Whey your money fund manager starts buying non productive treasuries for zero, the businesses you lend to cease to exist. These same businesses might be businesses your business relies on for revenue or service.
The US business model favors short term profits, short term planning. If a company plans for long term, it is going to be slammed by corporate raiders. One of the ways for companies to fight off raiders is to strip the company before someone else does.
The easiest way to strip the company is borrow money and either buy stock back or increase dividends. Forget about creating a profitable business model. Ergo after 2 decades of creating this corporate debt, 60%+ of all US companies are rated as junk debt.
Most corporate debt has to be rolled every 2 or 3 yrs. Just like option arms on houses, when the debt cannot be rolled or repaid the company defaults.
Small privately owned businesses that operate as low debt enterprise should do well in this downturn. But many businesses buy and have to pay cash and when they sell wait for 6 weeks before receiving payment. That is a lot of cash going out that used to be entirely fungible, ABCP. Few businesses can survive that loss of lending.
“Few business can survive that loss of lending.”
And those few that survive are going to eat the lunch of those that fail. Those businesses with lots of cash will call the shots.
This is the part that I don’t understand . The feds were providing short term funds to the system for these short term loans .The Feds have been doing that for a long time in response to making the market liquid . Insuring money markets
might of been the only step necessary in this current crisis . Why the overkill I’m asking ?
The fact that the people were pulling from risky funds or stocks or bad companies is normal isn’t it went a market is contracting or getting to risky ? When Wall Street doesn’t have any thing good to offer ,than why wouldn’t the money start
moving around ?
I have been wondering about this as well. There has been so many billions floating around since late last year. Maybe it is because nobody has a good plan to use the money. Who would they lend it to? A developer who wants to build more houses? I doubt it. We don’t build much of anything any more.
What we should do is stop this 700 billion bail out. We should be able use some of the money that the Fed has already put out there to retrofit idle plants and get the manufacturing of solar panels started. I would bet that there is lots of manufacturing space available in places throughout Michigan and Ohio. Then we could use some of the 700 billion to give tax rebates for people to buy the solar panels. We could put hundreds of thousands back to work. Not just in the factories, but all the people who would install these panels as well.
Now I know that we cannot put solar panels everywhere, but we can in at least 70% or so of the country. This would also get us off of oil in a decade or so.
Henniges Automotive
Farmington Hills, MI
“Henniges Automotive is shedding more than 200 jobs before the end of November and remaining unionized employees will face a three-week shutdown at Christmas time. “It’s just disgusting how bad it is getting. We’re turning into a Third World country before our eyes,” Joe Buote, president of United Steelworkers of America Local 455, said yesterday…”
Welland Tribune - September 17, 2008
The mythical Joe6Pack is well aware of what is happening.
Two weeks ago John Deere announced that the Welland Ontario plant was closing, 800 jobs. A financial call center also laid off 150. This in a city of 40000. I live next door but this is really taking off in my area. However, up here we still get the rhetoric that it can’t happen here. Plenty of re-sales and lots of consumer debt. Our Bank guy called in the charter bank C.E.O.’s for a chin wag. No problem here, just go buy something, all will be well.
The mythical Joe6Pack is well aware of what is happening.
Don’t count on it
Flag burning
gay marriage
abortion
Jesus
Trump economics, justice, and liberty for many
From the economist
Tammy Wynen stands near the crowd outside a paper mill in Kimberly Wisconsin. Many hint that the soon to be unemployed workers should vote for Obama. Mrs. Wynen a 27 year old veteran is not so sure. She can not remember the last time she saw Mr. Obama recite the pledge of allegiance. And her family loves Sarah Palin.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Tammy don’t sound like someone who gots herself a lot of book larnin’
Many of the traders who were used to receiving six-figure annual bonuses have started brown-bagging their lunches instead of ordering in sushi or eating out at local restaurants. “Dude, we already passed the recession,” one trader explained to the worker. “This is the Depression. Save your money.”…
One trading-floor denizen described how it happens: Your phone rings, and you’re told to report to human resources. You stand up and announce to the people in your row that it’s all over. If they like you, they hug you and maybe even applaud. In many cases, they’ll be the ones to clean out your desk. Right after you get fired, you’re marched out of the building by security.”…
When a financial journalist friend of mine asked a prominent executive how this would all end, he replied, “With riots in the streets.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091902809.html
“With riots in the streets.”
And when it happens, there will never be a better time to buy real estate (or to sell gold, for that matter).
“(or to sell gold, for that matter.)”
If you can find buyers with the money. If there is a shortage of ready cash needed for essentials then at the bottom of the list for thing to buy is gold.
Or if the government does not make gold ownership and sales illegal again, as was done in the 1930s. Now that short sales are illegal, don’t be surprised if reinstatement of the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 is next.
This is one of the reasons I don’t believe gold is a good choice of a hedge against financial disaster, as there is a precedent for government fiat to ban its possession.
You guys seem obsessed with gold. What’s the deal?
King,
You will soon be reduced to just another pawn, as cash isn’t going to save you on this gig, is it?
It’s not 1974, or 1981 or 1991
It’s late 2001 Argentina, very late.
It’s never too late for an old dog to learn tricks, but very few are capable of doing so…
You’ve been right until last week, but now you’re just barking up a tree.
Actually fiat-hoarders have been wrong from the beginning.
We will remain wrong until gold ownership is again forbidden by fiat.
Once Pandora’s Safe Deposit Box gets opened, who knows what will happen?
guns and ammo will be in high demand
Especially that old-fashioned kind of ammo that uses corrosive primers. Although you have to clean the gun well after use, that stuff lasts forever which is why many of the world’s militaries stockpile it. I have thousands of rounds of Turkish 8mm Mauser ammo dating from circa 1940, and it’s all good stuff.
Excellent selection…..
Try some 1940 vintage Frankfort Arsenal Armor Piercing M2 in 30.06, if you can locate some……..Excellent for disabling automobiles. I’ve saved it for a “rainy day”, so to speak……..
I’ve also encountered Colombian 1949 vintage 30.06 FMJ (Boxer primed) which was inexpensive, but dependable for day to day shooting.
Unhh, I got a bunch of Ecuadorian 8mm Mauser rounds that were about 50% duds.
It was interesting to shoot that stuff. Either you get a big bang and recoil or a little bitty “click”.
Still have a few strips loads of that laying around somewhere.
I bought a bunch of 7.62×54R in a giant “tuna can”. Cheap, and it works.
I should also say, that I bought a bunch of old Russian rifles to go with that 7.62.54R.
They make nice gifts, and I like to know that my friends are adequately armed.
Geetting a type 03 FFL (curio and relic) is still a great deal: $30 for 3 years.
The Russian (and Warsaw Pact) Mosin-Nagant rifles are a deal these days. Once I bought a box of 5 for $150 model 1944’s from Century International Arms. That’s a deal.
My most accurate iron-sights rifle is a model 1891 Mosin-Nagant from arsenal near St.Petersburg dated 1917. I get 3″ groups with iron sights at 100 yards.
Some of the others won’t hit the side of a barn.
Albania was a Commie Chinese client during the cold war, and the Chinese built a huge ammo factory there at that time. The Albanian 7.62 x 54R nowadays comes from that factory. It’s rough but good stuff.
I’ve been home alone this week. During the week I have eaten peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and Spaghettios. And I had forgotten how much I love both of those things. My background was tailor made for riding out hard times. I grew up poor in a small house with a lot of kids. I now live in a tiny apartment and still love peanut butter, Spaghettios and bolgna. I should be okay, unless the bus blows up. It’s the caviar eating, Mercedes driving, Prada wearing drones that will have the hardest time adapting.
Boom times = Spaghettios with Franks
Hard times = Spaghettios sans Franks
To be harsh - boo frickin’ hoo.
Sorry - but I work in Telecom. The same thing happened there in 2001/2002. Nortel went from 100k down to 30k workers almost overnight. Same for Lucent. Same for many other companies just on a smaller scale. That’s what happens when you have a boom followed by a bust - massive hiring during the boom, then massive firing during the bust. Many companies of course laid everyone off when they went belly up.
I got laid off a few months ago. My last day is Sep 30th.
Life goes on - you find another job. I haven’t found one yet, but I know I will, one way or another. In the meantime I’ve saved up enough to be fine for a good while. I’m going to enjoy having some time off actually. So far that doesn’t include any plans for rioting. Why would I? It was poor business decisions made by idiots that caused me to lose my job - same as the folks on Wall Street.
What they should do instead is write their congressman/woman, and ask them to persecute (sic) those truly responsible for this mess and now trying to prolong it - the power brokers in the Fed, Treasury, etc. IMO one big honkin’ class-action lawsuit against Greenspan is probably appropriate right about now.
“What they should do instead is write their congressman/woman, and ask them to persecute (sic) those truly responsible for this mess and now trying to prolong it - the power brokers in the Fed, Treasury, etc.”
And a few weeks later, you will get a form letter back, thanking you for writing and for being a concerned citizen, followed by why your congresscitter is not going to do it.
Sometimes just planting a seed may help.
Kind of like when I was a teenager and my parents told me things I ignored or rejected. Sometimes it comes back and I realize they were right and heed the advice, or at least let it guide me some when I’m on the fence about something.
Short of that, what have we got? The elections are rigged by the media, so not much can be done through that avenue.
Pack, sorry you got laid off. It is always a kick in the teeth, no matter the game face. Has happened to me on several occasions, and the only good thing I can say about it, is that the longer you circulate the easier it gets to assume the position. I will do my best to get out of my introversion and send you those aura-like-good-vibration thingies. I read about them in the 70’s. Transmitting.
Many of the traders who were used to receiving six-figure annual bonuses have started brown-bagging their lunches instead of ordering in sushi or eating out at local restaurants.
Who in NYC was talking about there being less traffic than usual in a local pizzeria? Was that ET or WT?
Interesting seeing redundant evidence from multiple sources.
(from the article)
The trading floor had always seemed, to one observer, rock-solid Republican — until recently. One staunch Republican stood up in his trading group’s row and announced, to the amazed stares of his colleagues, “I’m voting for Obama. I don’t care if I have to pay more taxes. I just want things to be fixed.”
And…..lettttt’s go, Hbbers! Don’t be shy!
How about the Angelo Mozilo tax? If you were a fiend of Mozilo, or approved or benefited from his hubris, you have to pay a 700% tax on your ill-gotten gains.
Yes, I said FIEND on purpose
I’ve been a Republican since day one…….but proud that I didn’t vote for the moron with the initials GWB in 2004
Didn’t vote for anyone in 2004; if John Kerry was the best the Democrats could do, why bother?
I’m considering a vote for Obama. He must have the Republicans scared to death, from the volume of the character-assasinating, he-doesn’t-wear-a US-Flag-lapel-pin, “he’s really a Muslim trying to hide the fact” e-mails I’ve been receiving.
I’m voting out all incumbents, just for General Principle.
Same here. I’ve been registered Republican since I was 18, though I never liked GWB (last Republican I voted for president was Bob Dole). My definition of “Conservative” is constitutional, not cultural.
I now consider myself to be a Republican apostate, but can’t quite convince myself to become a full-fledged Democrat.
This year I am considering changing party registration into being an Independent, and voting anti-incumbent all the way.
John McCain, Sept./Oct. issue of Contingencies:
“Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.”
And his plan is to tax workers on Health benefits. (Yes, raise taxes)
I’m edhopper and I approve this partisan post.
Ed, you are a good partisan. I know you are critical of all these bailouts and the stupidity of Schumer, Frank, etc.
Don’t you think that the expenditures taking place now will destroy any chance of universal healthcare? There is no way Obama, if he becomes president, will be able to push through the added spending. A cynical person would say that is what the Republicans had in mind all the time.
Come into the City. We will drink ourselves silly.
Obama is pushing for decreased spending, when you count getting out of Iraq as decreasing spending. 700B down the hole for a war based on faked intelligence is what this country gets for voting for the “fiscally conservative” party?
Yes instead of taxing the elite who have benefited most from our corrupted system and who pay a much lower tax rate lets add another tax to the middle and upper middle class. Let’s tax their health care benefits. If you are not in the top 1% in this country you are toast.
maybe the dems will save us.
The problem is, when they raise taxes on the “rich” people, the rich never end up paying more. It always hurts small business owners and upper middle class who actually have to work.
Do you have evidence of this?
I tend to think that anyone, small business included, who makes 250k a year is a whole lot richer than me and should pay more taxes.
why? are they using more services?
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is asking Congress to let the government buy $700 billion in toxic mortgages in the largest financial bailout since the Great Depression, according to a draft of the plan obtained Saturday by The Associated Press.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080920/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown
This is more than the defense budget, and a tad inflationary.
Watcher, baby, what are we gonna do? LOL…
I’m moving full steam ahead with insanely low offers. When the realtors are refusing me access to sellers, I use the public records system and contact them directly via phone or mail. So far I’ve only managed to piss a lot of people off.
I insist that I am not lowballing, just informing people that they have a buyer at X price.
I’m all over a foreclosure in a very nice neighborhood and may be close to an inspection and formal written offer.
Also, I regret spending my house fund on outstnading, low-interest debt. Yes, I took advice from a stranger on the internet, and it was a dumb move. I had a pile off cash to dangle at FB’s and now I’m FHA at best for the next 6 months.
Sure, keep your powder dry, but be ready to unload when the time is right.
You’re not being bold enough, Muggy. Up the ante. Now you want owner financing at a fixed, low rate. If everything goes well, maybe you can get a mortgage in the future and free them up.
This is a good tactic to at least force capitulation of opinion. Some realturd or owner tells you “The market is coming back, things are getting better”. You say, “Great, then you won’t mind financing me for a couple of years until all that mortgage money is available and the housing market goes up”. Step back and see the reaction.
Since many regions now have to resort to collecting increasingly confiscatory taxes to maintain shrinking services and greater debts, you should ask the FBs to PAY YOU to take the alligator off their hands.
Or you can offer one dollar and proclaim you’re doing them a favor.
skipping the realwhores is an instant 5% savings- good plan
you should ignore the foreclosures for now.
the best shot you have at a lowball is a little old lady who cant maintain the house anymore, and just wants to be done with it.
I prefer the method of the house going off listing and then wait three months, knock on the door and humble yourself. The older generation is still more realistic. Remove the middle-man.
This is completely absurd. How could banksters have walked off with those seven-, eight- or nine-figure bonuses a couple of years ago if regulators had done their jobs?
Editorial
Hard Truths About the Bailout
Published: September 19, 2008
The fifth major federal bailout this year — after Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the American International Group — is now in the works. Taxpayers have every right to be alarmed and angry. The latest plan is not necessarily a bad one, and officials had to move quickly to prevent credit markets from seizing up.
But make no mistake, this crisis could have been avoided if regulators had enforced rules and officials had dared to question risky lending and other dubious practices.
We’ve talked about systemic risk, contagion and meltdown for some time. This week we witnessed them all. I’ve long said this thing was too big to bail. Some of our political leaders are probably learning what too big to bail means over this weekend. The best they can do now is triage the financial system. Home prices will continue falling. At least, they’ve gotten past the denial phase.
So as the Paulson ‘full employment for the struggling traders on Wall Street plan’ takes over Washington this weekend. (aka. Buying the illiquid paper at overpriced marks and hiring outside managers to run.) I think of China’s simplified system, f’k up and get taken behind the woodshed.
I am not opposed to RTC2, I believe it is necessary. The structures being discussed in the media are outrageous and evil.
If I were a Dumbcratic congressman, I would want a $200B stimulus package for my constituents tacked on. Its only money that will never be repaid. Ooh lets throw in a $300B alt energy program. You want $700 B for the financial industry, we want $700B for the people, so lets have an additional $200B to US industry with $50B going to the Auto industry. Done.
Christmas bonuses for everyone.
did you see the Bronte post this morning?
he tried for the long WM preferred and short the common, but the trade was disallowed.
In sum, he thinks this makes the case for WM more difficult going forward, I closed my WM common long Friday.
I read his post and am mildly angry off at myself for not catching WM’s preferred. I could have sold my long WM and bought the preferred locking in profit and await the buyout.
Too many things going on and I am just not smart as the Aussie. Oh well.
I thought he bought ABK ~2 and waited for the squeeze and sold at 7? He is too friggin smart to round trip it. Especially with AIG under pressure at the time, ABK was a great short at 7 let alone 9. Bank of America was an incredible short at 39 (now trading at 35); WFC was $44 and I could do nothing. a $30 stock at best with one of the worst lending books of any bank. And the government is going to pay a premium for the junk loans on their book. lol
feels like significant airpocket now forming under the banks, bid/ask are going to widen, volumes decrease.
lots of turbulence prior to the hard landing?
based on this mornings look at the clustrf-ck legislation approaching at greased pole speed: looks like the long commodities, short dollar, short treasuries is back on, and going bigger. Thank everyone in charge for the wonderful opportunites. Somebody is about to blinky without thinky.
“looks like the long commodities, short dollar, short treasuries is back on, and going bigger”
Yes I think you’re right. I wonder how long the 700 billion will hold the markets and dollar up?
The government will have to raise taxes to pay for this and then Deflation again. In a few years after RE does not recover and the bad Mortgages bought can’t be sold at anywere near what they were bought for.
this economy has been outsourced
John also mentions the ABK (remember the casket crew posting from weeks past)?
looks like he didnt take it off before the “roundtrip started”…I think it may consolidate in the 2-3’s..any mommentum players have left the building.
Here is a link to the draft of the Toxic debt proposal.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26803766
Take a gander at Section 8.
But hey, Section 3 (2), says that Hank has your back Mr. Taxpayer.
Couldn’t they have just shortened this to, “Buy Everything”?
Lol.
“Sec. 8. Review.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.”
Wow. They basically get to say, “we are now the law”. There is no way this can be constitutional. I wish somebody would challenge this to The Supreme Court. This is like putting a sign on your lawn that reads, “Stay off the grass or I reserve the right to kill you and no court can hold me accountable”.
That’s unacceptable. There needs to be accountability and oversight.
It’s outrageous and unacceptable, but is it altogether surprising after the events of the last week or so??
And after this is approved nearly unanimously by congressional clowns, they will say that didn’t know what was in the law and they’re appalled at the language. In six months they will call a committee to investigate the matter and come to the conclusion that they are no longer able to make law due the powers of congress being usurped by the Fed. After prodding (literally, I hope) they will admit to not knowing a thing about the law they signed because they didn’t have time to read it in the middle of election season. All will get reelected on the promise of changing this unfair corpocracy……
Sorry, cynical today.
Response to FEDDup from yesterday - query on Everbank. I can’t really advise one way or another, other than just giving my experience with them. Overall I’ve been happy - they seem flexible with a pretty good array of foreign currency CD’s, and options for PMs. I haven’t used them for PMs though only for CD’s. I made a bunch a first when the dollar tanked, but have since gone in the red a little the last couple of months. I see it as a good way to divest - seems to be about the easiest way to invest in foreign currencies.
Not being an expert on banking, it’s hard for me to say how “safe” they are, other than just:
- They’re fairly small, so there’s some risk just in that.
- I haven’t heard any bad rumblings or news of risk with them, which is a good thing.
I have done business with Everbank for the last few years. Generally I was pleased with what I found. The were a little pricey on exchange rates, but I accepted that.
Recently I had some problems with them. The usual stupid things. Change of address, ordering new checks, opening/closing new accounts. They were a real pain in the ass. No one would return my calls. Took a week to change my address. New checks shipped to old address.
Long story short: It took me more than a month to close my checking account and get my money. Of course that may have been in response to my comment “Are you going to Indy Mac on me?”
They seem to be fiscally sound, but customer service is non-existent.
Hey Mr. Bear…I like your version of: “Hey! look over there…Wow!”
On the 8th Day… Mr. Paulson speaks:
“Good Morning America, well how is everyone today? Good? Great? Wonderful? See, that didn’t hurt so much right? I tell ya, we have some unbelievable “tools” at our “disposal” over here at the US Treasury, don’t we?. Yeah, well, now that the “dinner” table has been reset with a new table cloth & “clean” dishes and “silverware”, lets all get back to work so we can meet back here in just a little while and enjoy a real “feast”. It’ll be good to see some new faces…of course, we’ll miss some of our old “friends” that are no longer around, but we”ll reminisce & laugh…and this too shall pass.” Oh, due to unforeseen circumstances…it’ll be BYOB, cheers!”
“More than 20 years ago, Paul Cooper and Ed Graeber, both now retired from Sandia, created the original Mk 141 flash-bang diversionary device, which was intended for limited (and specialized) applications.”
This I edited as to how this item could be utilized by the US Treasury:
“The new flash-bang can be made into many styles appropriate for fielding by the US Treasury for a variety of applications. “Economical” and continuously “refillable” versions can be made for a variety of economic purposes. A heavier & more distributive version of the flash-bang could also allow it to be thrown at almost any financial “sit-u-ation” that might “suddenly” appear.”
Wyoming? Defense? America? …must be a connection to Cheney…maybe via Dubai Sovereign funds…Someone Get Maxwell Smart on the phone, I have a job for him.
“Sandia National Laboratories recently licensed its safer fuel air diversionary device technology to… Defense Technology Corporation of America, located in Casper, Wyo.”
http://www.sflorg.com/technews/tn041508_01.html
Yikes! Bush wants Congress to hike debt ceiling to $11.3 trillion!
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Bush administration is asking Congress to let the government buy $700 billion in toxic mortgages in the largest financial bailout since the Great Depression, according to a draft of the plan obtained Saturday by The Associated Press. The plan would give the government broad power to buy the bad debt of any U.S. financial institution for the next two years. It would raise the statutory limit on the national debt from $10.6 trillion to $11.3 trillion to make room for the massive rescue. (If Congress approves this scheme count on your dollar-denominated assets to lose even more value. Start looking at assets denominated in the stronger foreign currencies. Also, beef up your stash of gold/silver.)
I’m flabbergasted that gold isn’t approaching $2,000 an ounce at this point. It seems to me that hyperinflation is now baked into the cake. I just can’t see the U.S. servicing this exponential debt growth.
it’s called taxes. You’re just going to have start paying them like everybody else.
Eh?
(scratches head)
I pay more taxes than probably 95% of Americans. Think again Batman.
I think hugh debt is Deflationary unless the FED goes crazy and decides not to pay it back.
Well, I guess it’s not so bad to have a “do nothing” Congress…at least for next week.
I tried to buy some gold yesterday (physical coins) and the two dealers I spoke to didn’t have any but a US commemorative set priced $50 over spot. No silver bars or silver dollars either unless I wanted to pay 1.50 over spot.
Are you people watching the US Bond market crash? By this time next week this will be topic #1 I predict. If you want to short the long bond use ticker symbol TBL (Warning, this was a Leaman bond fund and I don’t know who will take it over now).
Silver eagles at $1.50 over are a screaming buy.
Most are nearly $4 over spot right now.
That’s if you can get them. I believe my local dealer has limited U.S. eagles in stock. Canadian Maples or Johnson-Matthey bars? Forget it.
I’d rather get the higher interest now being paid by long bonds.
Gold’s gonna crash soon, unless grocery stores start taking them as legal tender.
Watcher, do you think 100 oz bars are a good idea to have? Are the coins much better and more expensive because they are small pieces?
Bush rescue plan seeks $700B for to buy bad mortgages, would raise limit on national debt
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080920/financial_meltdown.html
Bush said he worried the financial troubles “could ripple throughout” the economy and affect average citizens. “The risk of doing nothing far outweighs the risk of the package, and over time we’re going to get a lot of the money back.”
He added, “People are beginning to doubt our system, people were losing confidence and I understand it’s important to have confidence in our financial system.”
“In my judgment, based upon the advice of a lot of people who know how markets work, this problem wasn’t going to be contained to just the financial community,” the president said. He said he was concerned about “Main Street” and that what happens on “Wall Street” affects “Main Street.”
Bush seems clueless about what is happening. These freaks want to rush through a $700 billion package to rescue the entire US financial system in less than a week? This reminds me of Patriot Act games and the details of the law won’t be known until they are enforced. Most of our moronic congress creatures didn’t even have time to read the Patriot Act before they overwhelmingly agreed to it. This financial act will undoubtedly take away more liberties in the name of saving the free market and democracy. I don’t trust these elected thieves to look out for the constitution or democracy, but I trust they will look out for themselves and their lobby money for reelection.
Here in Europe, the MPs agree to EU treaties that override the constitutions without knowing or understanding them. Journalists asked the MPs some really simple questions about the treaty, and the MPs had it all wrong.
The Lisbon treaty is completely unreadable, but such tiny details don’t bother them. Only the Irish were allowed to vote on the treaty in a referendum. Suprise, surprise, the treaty was voted down.
Sarkozy, Merkel, Brown and the others now want the Irish to vote again.
Representative democracy is broke beyond repair.
“…As job seekers across the nation outnumber job openings by more than 2 to 1, the biggest mismatch since 2004, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports…”
FinFacts
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1014762.shtml
A useful source for European views on the US economy.
My revised view on how much the government will pay for the “impaired assets”:
From this:
“In a session with House Democrats, they described a plan where the government would in essence set up reverse auctions, putting up money for a class of distressed assets — such as loans that are delinquent but not in default — and financial institutions would compete for how little they would accept for the investments”
I see a reverse auction as working like this. Suppose that there are a “type” of security that bank “A” is willing to sell off at 70 cents on the dollar, bank “B” is willing to sell off at 60 cents on the dollar, and bank “C” is willing to sell off at 50 cents on the dollar.
There are no buyers for this security until you discount down to 25 cents on the dollar.
Good ‘ol Uncle Sam holds the reverse auction, and bank “C” wins, selling the bundle to US for 50 cents on the dollar, takes any remaining write-down, takes the cash, and moves on with life (and possibly STILL doesn’t want to lend to anyone!)
The US government takes the 50 cents on the dollar ‘bundle’, and either sits on them until the next “spring selling season” (or the next next, or the next next NEXT) hoping that rising home values will increase the value of the ‘bundle’ it just bought, or it liquidates them and sends the loss to the taxpayers.
It doesn’t make banks lend, and it doesn’t liquidate securities at market clearing prices…it DOES liquidate them at the lowest prices that banks are willing to let them go at.
Thoughts?
Well, setting the market price really takes a willing seller and a willing bag holder
“Good ‘ol Uncle Sam holds the reverse auction, and bank “C” wins, selling the bundle to US for 50 cents on the dollar, takes any remaining write-down, takes the cash, and moves on with life (and possibly STILL doesn’t want to lend to anyone!)”
I think this will be the case. Banks will only make those loans they feel confident keeping on their books, or those than can be sold to F&F.
There is no secondary market for junk loans anymore.
The Housing Crash continues right on schedule.
I posted this hours ago, to no avail. So I’m trying again.
Senator Dodd apparently wants the government bailout to include credit card debt. From today’s Bloomberg:
“Christopher Dodd, the Banking Committee chairman, said the plan’s framers should consider the full debt load of U.S. consumers, possibly including credit cards.
“‘We’ have ‘got some strong concerns about what’s included here,’ said Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat. ‘They haven’t limited this conversation exclusively to residential mortgages. So I know that other securitized debt is also going to be considered.’”
They can wipe out everybody’s credit card debt, then everyone can start spending again till they max their cards out a second time! The economy will boom!!! Or maybe Ka-boom!
The fact is that the government is speaking fraud speak regarding any hopes of making any money by overpaying for toxic waste loans and than
re-marketing it . Really the function of selling off this stuff could be done by the companies holding toxic waste .But just like unrealistic
sellers of real estate ,they want some greater fool to buy their piece of junk for a inflated price . The government overpaying for junk in hopes that real estate going up will save the taxpayers and even make them money is fraud speak . Really, let these companies sell their junk and take their losses or go belly up and stop making the fat cats richer . Those gamblers made their bed ,let them lie in it . Anything more than 20cents on the dollar is absurd ,unless the seller has proof that the stuff is higher quality
and than maybe 50cents on the dollar for that stuff in a market like this .
But but but, that would hurt the innocent companies out there, the ones that are solvent, just in a little cash flow problem right now through no fault of their own. They… gag. I can’t repeat anymore with a straight face.
This is what a “Real Economist” posted on another site recently, to explain this crisis and why intervention should be welcomed. Basically, this is all due to the freak explosion, not at all from piling dynamite in front of the furnace.
I guess the government…er…taxpayers are the ultimate Greater Fool.
I think it just puts off a crash. I don’t think Homes are going back up so I don’t think that crappy mortgage stuff is worth more later than it is now.
Inflation is a way out as fixed debt goes down as your wage goes up which is what most home buyers were counting on. Outsourcing and computers killed wage inflation and I don’t think the government can risk monetary inflation it will go right to energy and food causing even more problems than falling home prices.
But who knows the government seems punch drunk to me
They went straight from the punch bowl to the Tequila shooters.
“… Do more benign outcomes support the rationale for continued inaction? Suppose we consider a more likely outcome in which investors merely slow their acquisition of U.S. Treasuries, or state actors such as the People’s Bank of China choose to diversify their reserve currency holdings, away from dollars and toward other currencies. That is, they do not actually “dump” the dollar holdings, but acquire them at a slower pace.
In this scenario, the premium necessary to induce investors to hold U.S. Treasuries will rise gradually but inexorably, slowing the economy. Because of the large and increasing budget deficits set in place, expansionary fiscal policy will be off the table. The role of monetary policy will also be circumscribed. Lowering interest rates further would alarm holders of U.S. Treasuries, an alarm that would be well founded given the tremendous incentives the Fed would have to inflate away the government’s debt held by foreign residents. So America will be trapped in slow growth, with no viable policy options. In such a state, policymakers may be even more tempted than they are now to impose tariffs and sanctions, increasing further the possibility of trade wars…”
caution 47 pg pdf
THE BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ SERIES
ON THE FUTURE OF AMERICAN COMPETITIVENESS
Getting Serious about the Twin Deficits
Menzie D. Chinn
CSR NO. 10, SEPTEMBER 2005
COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
Peter Schiff was on CNN last night, and advised getting cash positions out the US dollar given the printing presses will be running day & night to fund the bailout. His sense is this will turn the dollar to confetti.
He mentioned gold and Swiss francs.
What do y’all think? How do we protect our cash as the dollar weakens?
RE: advised getting cash positions out the US dollar given the printing presses will be running day & night to fund the bailout. His sense is this will turn the dollar to confetti.
No brainer.
Jim Rogers has been advocating this move for a couple years now.
I was a buy and hold idiot guy for 25 years.
12 months ago I moved “all out” of stocks save for Exxon/Mobil.
Am now in vintage Colt pistols and MERK Fund which invests in foreign currencies backed by PM’s.
Check this blog’s archives and Ben’s PM blog archives — these topics were discussed to death here over a year ago.
If you want gold and Swiss franc, then buy the fund Permanent Portfolio (I am a share holder). It is stuffed with those two things.
Goldbug warning: “Only physical metal will do. Buy paper gold and you are unlikely to ever be able to claim your gains in the value of the shiny yellow metal when all paper turns to dust.”
haha you can buy the miners if you don’t want to hassle paying well over spot price for coins and bars.
World War 1 was called “The Great War” until World War 2 came along…
What will the “Great Depression” be called, now that the 2nd Depression is upon us?
World Depression II?
(shrugs)
The GreatER Depression.
The Great Bushdoggle
I will call it “Howard”. Howard seems like a nice name for a Depression.
I guess Howard the Depression is no worse than Howard the Duck…
Loved the comic. Hated the movie.
The greater depression should be called WALL -STREET- GATE
We shall refer to it as the Great Housing Bubble. Before the great housing bubble you needed 20 pct down. During the great housing bubble the banks gave you money. After the great housing bubble, not so much. You cannot describe this era without the words housing and bubble.
The World went ALL IN, holding a Full House that was beaten by a Straight Flush…
I believe the hand was an empty house. That is when you have five cards that don’t make a pair, don’t make a straight and don’t make a flush. Except for the toilet flush.
The real truth is that in 2000 we were holding a bad hand .There was a crying need for productive changes with this Country at that moment in history . Instead of addressing real problems ,all the forces went for the easy fix ,which was a bubble that was advanced by cheap easy money . When I think of how much productive stuff could of resulted from that period ,I get ill . But anyway the whole business cycle got side
tracked into this fake housing bubble and people starting believing that they could live off houses and sell them to greater fools . What a joke . Thank you Wall Street for your fake CDO’s that were rated AAA and your bogus 30 to 1 leverage . Thank you housing gamblers for buying inflated property that you knew you couldn’t afford .\
Thank you creep loan agents and real estate agents that set up your marks ,just for a commission .Thank you politician for making it easy for the Ponzi-scheme to gain life ,to enrich Wall Street and have a false economy .
Now again we are at a critical point in history in which a easy fix or bail-outs will only create a worst situation down the line and hide the true problems again . This time we do not have the luxury of making the same mistake again .
Yes now its time to do some real work if the government doesn’t seize up all the cash in this save the homes prices save the banks save the America dream bailout.
And Bush he looks so clueless when these crisis pop-up.
Shorts had a full house kings over queens, beaten by a full house aces over kings.
I love it! Human behavior is awesome to watch. It is amazing to see the disconnects in people who consider themselves educated and free thinking following the herd mentality. Man’s ability to think allows him to forego reason, caution and common sense and thereby allows a means for his own destruction.
We live in a world where people believe that ‘if you motives are pure’ then it’s ok if everything goes awry. Home ownership went from a privilege to a right even if the buyer couldn’t afford it; all with the combined weight of Congress. No longer do you have to produce, you just have to utter the words and like magic, you are credited with the act. This week we watched as Congress, who by the way meets monthly with Mr. B for a little personel air (face) time on which they know absolutely nothing, waited in dire mood for the Fed’s (Mr.P/Mr.B/others) to bail them out. Magic words were spoken, ‘the Fed has your back’, and the market roars once again. Kudlow is happy. Cramer is happy. Why, the whole world is happy! Why then can’t I feel their euphoria? Maybe it’s because I’m just one of the little people, one who has worked for a living, saved and been responsible and just removing blue sky from the banking sheets relating to the home mortgage crises still ignores the huge amount of CC debt, and the rest of the how-amuch-amonth-it-agonna-cost-me debt is lingering out in lala land.
“I love it! Human behavior is awesome to watch. It is amazing to see the disconnects in people who consider themselves educated and free thinking following the herd mentality.”
No kidding, and great post! That’s pretty much how I feel. Yet, my resolve has been steeled by all this news. Now more than ever I intend to devote all my energies and resources to avoiding the fate that awaits the herd.
The herd keeps insisting on taking yesterday’s expectations into the brave new globalized world - and that ain’t gonna fly.
Test…blog is eating all of my posts these last few days. Typically, they would show up a little later. Not anymore.
Mine also, Ben is probably under attack. Spam or deliberate. Probably filters everything and certain words trigger the filter.
Even though it seems that 1 out of 5 posts that I do eventually shows up, many just help me clarify my thoughts.
Best to write the posts in Notepad, save the files, then try to post.
If it eats the post for no good reason, you can try again.
Plus - you get a written record of your thoughts, regardless of whether the posts go through.
good commentation around the posts adds illumination to the internalized process, which is very static.
commentary is preferred
test
Overheard at the office:
Co-worker looking into options of a short-sale on their property due to neighborhood comps driving price per sq ft down significantly. My co-worker spoke to their agent regarding any options available, and learned some interesting news. From the RE agent: Banks are no longer forgiving debt on short sales, making sellers sign promissory note agreeing to pay back balance owed. If amount is not payed back, they will seek recovery (lawsuit I assume). Two other “homeowners” on the same block (million $ neighborhood), left keys to house on granite counter. Walk aways.
Co-worker payed 1.x million for house, which given the comp, is now worth 700k. They are convinced house will not sell, been on market for at least 2 years. Co-worker is now in the planning stages of walk away, including moving money around, also mentioned buying a new car.
mission acCOMPlished
“…also mentioned buying a new car.”
Are people mental about automobiles or what?
Break up with girlfriend = new car
Look for new girlfriend = new car
Get married = new car
Lose weight = new car
Get a job = new car
Have a kid = new car
Buy a house = new car
Get divorced = new car
Lose said house = new car
One of the car rental companies is allowing you your choice of any vehicle on the lot for the same price, in essence pleading with us to rent a gas guzzler, pretty please!
I just rented a car for a two week trip in California.
The SUV prices are being offered at a discount to the normal cars. No takers.
The discount is not steep enough to offset the gas prices.
It’s really funny to watch the SUV prices come up before the rest. Oh, and the rental companies will be taking a bath on the resale value too.
BWAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Sorry if this is a repeat post; the other one never showed up.
Please look up the SD posters if you are headed our way.
I think I’m headed as far down as Santa Barbara.
I’ve never been south of LA (so never been to San Diego.)
This is a mistake, obviously, on my part. I need to fix it but when?
FPSS,
Heading for Palo Alto on your trip out to CA?
Yeah, check the other thread.
There on Sep 28th, and I have a car and I know my way around so Shallow Alto is no problem.
They perhaps want a new car as it becomes home for the forseeable future.
Yea I work with a guy who is planning this. But first new cars before his credit is trashed. He will go BK.
So is the FDIC officially dead with this new bailout? Noticed that nothing happened yesterday in FDIC land.
Wrong. Bank failures. One taken over by the FDIC, 2 forced mergers.
Ameribank went t*ts up!
I like your definition of “nothing”. Have you considered running for Congress?
Danke…missed that one….checked the FDIC website around 9 PM EST and it appeared that ‘nothing’ had happened.
I can’t wait to see what ‘nothing’ happens next week.
When the Soviet Union fell apart in the early 1990’s, interesting things came out of the woodwork…
One of the more historical artifacts to come up for sale was hordes of USA 1922 Series $20, $50, $100 and $500 Gold Certificate Banknotes(about 40% larger than current size banknotes), which were held in lieu of the real thing (Gold ETF’s of their era).
I saw one hoard of 200 pieces of 1922 $100’s, all in decent condition.
At the time in the early 90’s, a 1922 Series $100 Gold Certificate was worth around $175-300, based upon collector demand.
One of the top 10 ways the world can end: A mishap at a particle accelerator.
CERN: Damage to new collider forces 2-month halt
“…”It’s too early to say precisely what happened, but it seems to be a faulty electrical connection between two magnets that stopped superconducting, melted and led to a mechanical failure and let the helium out,” Gillies told The Associated Press….”
Yahoo
BS, typical CYA and the MSM bought it.
Halting it is no big deal, but not being able to determine how or why the electrics fried is very troubling.
So not only are you a finanicial whiz, but now you are also a physics whiz? Well maybe since the whole apparatus is chilled to 0 Kelvin it might take a few days before it is warm enough for techs to check it out.
I hope that many here know that 0 Kelvin is -273.15°C and -459.67°F
I bet you the average murican would say Kelvin Who?
“A mishap at a particle accelerator.”
No worries — it’s all contained!
As the anger grows in this country I have a feeling republicans are going to be a minority party for a long time, just like they were after the caused the first great depression. I would strongly support higher taxes for anyone making more than $250k, as well as for any registered republicans.
Republicans caused this mess. They can squirm all they want, try to blame Dodd, Frank, etc. Even the dumbest people in this country now realize this was a massive failure to regulate, and DEREGULATION is republican religion.
Republicans own this disaster. I hope they stay a minority party for the rest of my life.
Good riddance.
Static analysis at its worst.
You think the Republicans won’t adapt and change their message? Think again.
(I don’t care for either party but I do care about wrong logic.)
Republicans are vile, evil creatures, but the Democrats are the biggest enablers on Earth.
Mike Malloy would at least agree with this. There are a few bright spots and Independents (except Joe Loserman), but the old establishment Dems are useless as t*ts on a bull.
Anybody else keep a barf-bag handy?
When I think of Hank @ the helm of a stuttering economy, I tend to get the dry heaves…
Once BushCo is given the heave-ho, your stomach may settle for a couple weeks, but don’t expect longterm relief, especially since whoever is in office will likely feed you the same garbage.
Got any Pepto-Abysmal you can spare?
Deceit lying in your eyes all the way
If I listen to your lies would you say
Im a man without conviction
Im a man who doesnt know
How to sell a contradiction
You come and go
You come and go
Karma karma karma karma karma comrade Paulson
You come and go
You come and go
Sorry, alad, today I can only offer roil-aids and that won’t clear things up.
Rochester (NY)-area existing home sales fall 23 percent
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20080920/BUSINESS/809200326/1001
Mortgage rates are the lowest since February, so that could spur sales, brokers said.
The 23 percent decline in sales mirrored the August experience at Realty USA’s Pittsford office, said manager Larry Mastrella. But he doesn’t think it is a true reflection of the current market because many people tend to look for homes after Labor Day.
“In my career, August and December have been the slowest months,” he said, acknowledging that “confidence is waning right now.”
The garbage that this paper spews out isn’t worth reading, but it’s the only daily rag in town. August to August sales are down 23%, but that isn’t a true reflection??? “No, honey, let’s not buy a place in August, we’ll wait till September when things pick up in the real estate market.” Mortgage rates have been low for months and that hasn’t spurred sales here and it won’t matter if rates go to 1% if you can’t get a loan, if you are losing your job, if taxes are killing your wallet; you aren’t going to buy a house. The rose colored glasses are still being passed out and worn in upstate NY.
What BS - how many people move right after their kids started school?
Battered Galveston Ready To Rebuild After Ike:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080920/ap_on_re_us/ike_galveston_s_future
Small excerpt of the article which I read for the local news. My wife and I loved visiting Galveston when we lived in Dallas. Now that we live 30 miles away, our two weekends out while getting our new house set up have been spent there. We were looking forward to celebrate NASA’s 50th aniversity at a party in Galveston next weekend. So sad.
Luckily, (according to the quote below), Galveston will be saved by the construction of storm proof luxury condos. :)
Oh well, good thing we have the photographs.
—
This March, the 15-story tower Emerald by the Sea — with green-tinted windows and unit prices ranging from $375,000 to $1.5 million — opened where Jack Tar once stood, and survived Ike almost unscathed.
Galveston was slow to follow its Gulf Coast neighbors in embracing the high-rise luxury condominium boom, but it’s making up for lost time. “It’s inevitable,” Jim Gaines, research economist for the Real Estate Center at Texas A&M University, told the local newspaper. “You can see it coming.”
The well-off and the poor coexist in Galveston, which has a poverty rate of 22 percent, just behind that of New Orleans.
For many years now, my wife and I viewed a home purchase as the one absolute goal in our lives, everything else is secondary. I mean we have a 2 year old son, we need the “stability” of a house, and our son needs a yard to play in. Right? I’m not so sure anymore. With the exception of our cars, we have no debt. What part of taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt, is essential to our happiness? I’ve realized lately what truly makes me happy, being in debt isn’t one of them.
We’ve decided to forgo the home purchase indefinitely, and look for a long term rental. My son is happy that his parents are here with him, and that’s all that matters. He doesn’t care that we rent, he cares about fire trucks.
I know that it wasn’t directed at me specifically, but thank you all for your advice. And thanks for your hard work Ben, I will make a contribution as soon as I can.
At some point it will make financial sense to buy a house. It may be 2 or more years from now. Your rent can change from year to year. However a 15 year or 30 year fixed rate mortgage will not change over those years and once the mortgage is paid off no more payments at all. Where as renting means you will be paying until you die.
Selling off a place in an overpriced market and buying a cheaper place for cash still has its advantages…..
I tease people by saying I’ve got a 0% fixed-rate mortgage. When they ask me how, I tell them all you have to do is put 100% down.
I *own* a home, 100% paid off, and disagree with you!
It’s not as clear cut as you make it seem.
1. Houses need maintainance
2. There’s property tax!
3. While I’m not stupid enough to buy into a community that does this, many folks have to pay HOA dues! (Even with single family detached houses). And these have no limit! If 50% of the residents aren’t paying their’s you may have to pay double!
4. If you rent, you can pack up and move in a few weeks notice! Handy to do if jobs dry up, etc.
My wife didn’t seem to find the property and insurance bill we pay here offensive. (Since we escrow, it doesn’t really hit her consciousness since the monthly PITI payment still seems very reasonable compared to what we paid in the past.)
However, when I pointed out that we would still be paying 48% of our current PITI for the TI after the house is totally paid off… this stunned her.
With a large down payment, our house is still a few hundred less than rents, and after payoff will be less than half rents (assuming no inflation ;)) if we retire here eventually.
Your 1..n above are very valid and not something I understood well before buying my first house.
Debt =
World travel, little league sports, 40 hr work week, new mountain bike =
We have a 2 year old and another very soon on the way, and we rent a house with a very kid-friendly yard.
In Amerika, house owns you.
The Bernanke Fed is living by a revised version of pottery barn rules:
“You bought it, you run it.”
Close-up
Federal Reserve in increasingly contradictory position
The Federal Reserve is being stretched to its limits, in the range of problems it is being asked to fix and in its financial firepower.
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
The New York Times
PREV 1 of 2 NEXT
Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke
Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke
Rep. Barney Frank
Rep. Barney Frank
Related
* Earthquake strikes capitalism: Free market isn’t so free
WASHINGTON — The Federal Reserve is being stretched to its limits, in the range of problems it is being asked to fix and in its financial firepower.
The central bank has also transformed itself almost overnight into The Fed Inc. by essentially taking over American International Group (AIG), after already taking on hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgage securities to help ailing financial institutions.
Instead of setting monetary policy, the Fed now must wear several hats, those of insurance conglomerate, investment banker and hedge-fund manager.
“This is unique, and the Fed has never done something like this before,” said Allan Meltzer, a professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon University and author of a history of the Federal Reserve. “If you go all the way back to 1921, when farms were failing and Congress was leaning on the Fed to bail them out, the Fed always said, ‘It’s not our business.’ It never regarded itself as an all-purpose agency.”
If my math is right , and this bail out is going to cost one trillion dollars , instead of bailing anyone out , the government could just give every man , woman and child three-hundred thousand dollars each and problem solved for the same amount of money. The people who can`t make their mortgage payment can for the most part pay off their house , there would be plenty of money for deposits in the cash strapped banks , problem solved.
U.S. population 305 million
one trillion = one million million
P.S. sorry China
Try 3000 each.
For heaven’s sake, just do the math…
$1,000,000,000,000 / 305,000,000 = $3,278.69
Besides which, even they know that we can’t be trusted with that much money
Dear Main Street: A Letter of Explanation From Wall Street
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105780/Dear-Main-Street:-A-Letter-of-Explanation-From-Wall-Street
did anyone see this? with the technology we have today, it sure would be nice to see the burden of this bailout get placed where it belongs. but of course, it wont.
Now some of Wall Streets biggest players are trying to get into the deal and offering their assistance for free ……he he he
Gross just said he will manage the toxic assets for free ,if they get the bail out . Others private parties are trying to interject influence . What a joke .I will save you 50 million if you give me 700 trillion I don’t deserve and will cheat the public out of . Not only are these people from Wall Street cheap, they are thieves .
First , so many of the CEO’s that created the mess have already retired
or have been let go ,or they are working in new jobs like Paulson . So, the CEO’s that are left are not the ones that caused the melt down by faulty lending ,but enough are left that they could do damage . I have never seen people go on and on about something that does not address the players that made a bee-line for the exists already .Some one ought to do a paper on what would of happened if the free markets were left to deal with the housing crash . No doubt many matters would of ended up in a Court of law and major class action suites would of brought down the Wall Street lender sector and would of been punitive .
Like any criminal that gets off the hook , or a liar loan borrower that gets off the hook ,they start demanding more money .
No more waste of money ….Please …….