September 22, 2008

The Good Part Is That Prices Have Declined In California

The Tribune reports from California. “It’s evident that many homeowners on Dorothy Street take pride in their houses. But in this Paso Robles neighborhood - one of the city’s older ones - about half a dozen homes have been in foreclosure during the past year. One such property on Dorothy Street, priced at $259,900, has been on the market for nearly a year, and until recently, no buyer had expressed interest.”

“‘It’s so sad that the houses are just sitting there,’ said one longtime Dorothy Street resident. ‘After the people leave, there’s just nothing.’”

“In the first eight months of this year, there were 1,468 foreclosure filings in the county - including notices of default, property scheduled for auction and real-estate owned (where the lender takes ownership of the property). That’s up 96 percent from the same period in 2007, according to RealtyTrac.”

“The all-home median price in San Luis Obispo County stood at $420,000 in August, a 17.4 percent decrease from the same month a year ago when the median was $508,500, according to DataQuick.”

“‘If you have a home in foreclosure in a neighborhood, and two years ago it sold for $550,000, but today it’s selling for $400,000, and another homeowner bought something in that same time period but they’re not in foreclosure, that is going to have an effect on the value of their home,’ said Jim Liptak, a broker in Paso Robles and president-elect of the California Association of Realtors. He called this market ‘unprecedented.’”

“‘The good news is that most people purchase a home with a long-term view, and so those folks that find themselves in that position, the values will come back over time and they will be fine,’ he said. ‘The crystal-ball question is how long a period of time is that. If someone says they can tell you, they’re blowing smoke at you.’”

“‘If you can afford to wait, tighten your belt and service your mortgage, it’s probably better to hold onto your house until the housing market rallies and you can gain back at least part of the peak value that was there before the housing bubble,’ said Andres Carbacho- Burgos, an economist with Moody’s Economy.com.”

“Lynn Cooper, president of Pacific Oak Foreclosure Service in San Luis Obispo, agrees. ‘It’s hard not to be concerned when your house is worth $200,000 less than it was two years ago,’ he said. ‘There again, are you living in a house (as a short-term investment) or a home?’”

“In the past year, the average days on market for bank-owned property is 55, compared to 145 days for one that’s not bank-owned, said Dick Keenan of the Keenan-Carter Group in Pismo Beach.”

“‘The good part is that the prices have declined in Nipomo 49 percent over the last two years from the very peak to the very bottom,’ said Keenan, adding that the 49 percent includes both single-family homes and condos.”

“Patsy Andres, a Dorothy Street resident since 1975, said her home is almost paid for. Although home values have declined, she and her husband aren’t worried because they’re not planning to move anytime soon.”

“Still, she finds it sad that some residents in her neighborhood weren’t able to hold on to their homes. ‘I don’t think it’s everybody’s fault that the market went down,’ she said. ‘But when you buy a home you do have to budget.’”

“Mike Downs, who is updating the three-bedroom home he bought on Dorothy Street about five months ago, said he has noticed that the quality of caretaking in the area has diminished recently. Those who need to sell, he said, ‘will have no choice but to meet where the foreclosed prices are.’”

The Marin Independent Journal. “Marin taxpayers have stepped in with a $2.5 million loan to shore up a low-income housing program socked by the lax lending practices that triggered the nation’s financial crisis.”

“Although the Marin district attorney’s office has not entered the legal fray, problems involving lenders have prompted a civil court battle and negotiations over whether taxpayers - or lenders - own several homes in the public program.”

“In at least five instances, lending institutions - including the failed IndyMac Bank - gave participants in the program loans secured by their housing units that exceeded the price for which the homeowner was permitted to sell the unit.”

“Six homes had to be repurchased either because their owners failed to keep up with their original mortgage loan payments and homeowner association fees, or because the owner wanted to sell the unit.”

“The authority may have to sell some of its low-income units to cover its costs. There is no estimate as to how many.”

“‘We’re just trying to provide housing opportunities to people who don’t have a lot of money,’ said Ed Griffin, who has served as the authority’s interim director for the past six months.”

The Manteca Bulletin. “The average previously owned home closing escrow in Manteca is costing $180,000 less than it did at the market’s peak in 2005. There were 705 homes that have closed escrow through Monday within the City of Manteca with an average sales price of $249,456. That compares to the peak average price in 2005 of $429,000.”

“All three categories of homes in all three areas - foreclosures, short sales, and property not in duress - have dropped in price significantly since the first week of August. On the flipside, inventory is down by 14 homes from 458 on Aug. 4 while the number of new listings has dropped as well by five from 54 the first week of August. The price of the new listings is down by $46,000 on average to $210,587 for the homes that came on the market last week.”

The Fresno Bee. “Developers are scrambling to find lenders, car loans are harder to get, home equity lines are being frozen and cash for small-business loans is drying up. Homeowners are increasingly having lines of credit frozen or slashed because the values of their houses are falling.”

“Nathan Magsig, executive director of the nonprofit Coalition for Urban Renewal Excellence has seen the effect professionally and personally. Magsig experienced fallout from the credit crisis when his home lender suddenly cut his equity line of credit by $100,000 — even though he never used it.”

“‘If you have a home with a sizable mortgage,’ he said, ‘you’ll be getting that letter in short order.’”

“Between 30% and 35% of people who find a car at the Fresno dealership near Shaw Avenue and Highway 99 qualify for a loan these days, compared with 55% to 60% in past years, said Auto Maxx finance manager Sami Asadourian.”

“‘Even people with good credit — we’re having a hard time getting them qualified,’ he said.”

“Instead of the usual three references for banks to contact in case a person stops paying, many are requiring 10, he said. In the past, Asadourian said, banks never asked for proof of income if a customer’s credit score was higher than 680. Now, even customers with a FICO rating of 800 are having to prove their income, he said.”

The Monterey Herald. “Statewide, unemployment rates reached 7.7. percent in August, pushed by a tumbling economy and crumbling housing market, the highest level since March 1996. Behind the numbers are 1.42 million unemployed Californians, more than triple the 413,000 jobless in August 2007. The department recorded a 61,000 increase in the jobless rolls just since July. The unemployed included 509,700 layoffs.”

“The flatline housing market handed the construction industry the most job losses over the past year, down 79,200 jobs since August 2007. The drop of 8.9 percent means a loss of nearly one out of every 10 construction jobs.”

“The construction, banking and mortgage industries combined for a loss of 112,500 jobs.”

From KCRA 3. “A new casino looking to hire staff has been swamped with applicants struggling to find employment in a poor economy. Red Hawk Casino, which is set to open later this year, has opened a hiring office in El Dorado Hills.”

“About 11,000 applications have streamed in for the 1,700 available jobs.”

The Press Enterprise. “Demand for office space in both counties has dropped so dramatically that office construction is likely to slow, at least for the next year or so, developers and real estate officials familiar with the Inland region’s market say.”

“Because office construction is tied directly to the job market, predicting when office construction in the Inland region will perk up is difficult.”

“The region is unlikely to stabilize until the middle of 2010, at the earliest, said Moshe Silagi, owner of Silagi Development in Thousand Oaks.”

“‘Office construction is directly tied to the housing market,’ said Silagi, whose company is developing the Regency Tower project along with a two-story building that will cover 68,000 square feet inside Hunter Business Park, which is also in Riverside. ‘We have to stop the foreclosures, but unfortunately you can’t stop all of them at once. You just can’t.’”

The Daily Bulletin. “It’s been nearly four months since Mark Dowling took the helm at the San Bernardino County Economic Development Agency, which is tasked with working on housing and business development issues. Dowling is a licensed real estate broker.”

“Daily Bulletin: What can the EDA do about the county’s foreclosure crisis?”

“Dowling: I wish we could have a bigger role. There are currently 20,000 bank-owned homes in San Bernardino County. There are in excess of 20,000 more properties that have had notices of default filed against them. That is an overwhelming number that no government agency can solve.”

The Associated Press. “In California, some neighborhoods have been blighted by the plethora of empty homes. Joe Minnis, a real estate agent for Prudential California, knows foreclosed homes in San Bernardino that have been systematically stripped, trashed and tagged by gang members.”

“‘Neighbors are taking turns parking their cars in the driveways of vacant homes just to make it look like someone lives there,’ he said.”

The Mount Shasta News. “According to Shawn Abbott, faculty member and economics instructor at College of the Siskiyous, the financial crisis in New York will be felt here at home in Siskiyou County in the form of not just lowered 401k and stock portfolio balances, but in a tightening of credit available to consumers for all sorts of purchases and investments including, ‘Cars, real estate… even small business loans.’”

“Lake Shastina based financial planner Robert McCrillis offered his opinion about how the Wall Street turmoil will affect Siskiyou County.”

“‘Credit is going to get a lot tighter and it should. There are over 90 homes for sale at Lake Shastina. 80 have never been lived in. I think that people will lose jobs as companies cut payrolls…Everyone is going to tighten their purse strings,’ he said.”




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97 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-09-22 13:12:22

‘Housing numbers for the Central Coast are in for August, and one county suffers a severe drop. The median home price is down in both counties. In Santa Barbara County, the median is about $276,000, down nearly 48 percent from a year ago. DataQuick said the nearly 50 percent drop in Santa Barbara County’s median price reflects a large number of sales in the North County areas.’

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-09-22 13:18:37

Right there in Calimexiforcano Guamerica

 
Comment by SD Renter-George
2008-09-22 13:31:52

Wow, 48%. That’s got to be some kind of record. Maybe someone will chase the record like Bonds going after Aaron’s record. Exciting stuff.

Got bongs?

Comment by MontereyJack
2008-09-22 14:42:14

Wow, 48%. That’s got to be some kind of record. Maybe someone will chase the record like Bonds going after Aaron’s record. Exciting stuff.

There was a similar drop in Monterey country over the last year or so. Both areas have a Hawaii-like economy that splits primarily between very wealthy people and farm/service workers.

In the Monterey area low-end sales started fading in 2006, so the 2007 market was dominated by a smaller number of high-end sales (and illusory high prices). In 2008 the subprime low-end market crashed and the high-end market froze. Now you can buy a dumpy house in a dumpy area for 50% off of 2006 prices while the middle or better houses sit and sit and sit.

The median is in the toilet because only cheap stuff sells, while overall values are still gliding down. The higher end owners (and banks) need another year to capitulate.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 15:42:13

“The higher end owners (and banks) need another year to capitulate.”

I think an essential purpose of the $700 bn rescue plan is to keep the banks and high end owners from ever having to capitulate.

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Comment by JohnF
2008-09-22 16:06:31

You are correct sir…..!

 
Comment by Jimbo
2008-09-22 19:21:53

The greater challenge will be those same banks and sellers getting buyers to capitulate.

 
Comment by Ernst Blofeld
2008-09-22 19:40:50

The capitulation will happen; it’s just that the banks will get capital injections and/or dump the paper on the government so they can survive. The house prices will go down regardless.

I’m betting on a late 2009 surrender.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:07:41

It can’t be done without higher incomes for all.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-09-23 09:12:12

That won’t happen!

Just higher incomes for “some” - the bankers. Four legs good, two legs bad, etc.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-09-22 13:17:32

“In at least five instances, lending institutions - including the failed IndyMac Bank - gave participants in the program loans secured by their housing units that exceeded the price for which the homeowner was permitted to sell the unit.”

IndyMac Federal Bank is offering 4.05% on 7 month $1,000 minimum cd’s in today’s L.A. Times…

In bold print @ the top of the advert:

’safety.’

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-09-22 14:49:39

When you wear those Foster Grants.

 
 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-09-22 13:20:40

“Right there in Calimexiforcano Guamerica”

Are you singing that from the beehive, home of pasty white people?

Comment by palmetto
2008-09-22 13:36:55

What’s the beehive?

Comment by Steve W
2008-09-22 13:40:03

As Olygal would put it, U-tarr.

I have to admit, those beehive state signs are kinda creepy for weirdos like me who are afraid of stinging insects.

Comment by palmetto
2008-09-22 13:46:12

Geez, is beekeeping a big thing in Utah? I don’t like stinging (or stinking) insects much, either. Never been to Utah, but I’ve known some fine folks from the area.

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Comment by palmetto
2008-09-22 13:47:53

Besides, considering some of the exotic insect life we have here in Fla, I certainly wouldn’t diss Utah over beehives.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 13:53:13

So far as I am aware, “The Beehive State” is a metaphor for the lifestyles of Utah’s very busy Mormon population.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-09-22 14:10:01

Since we are speculating, I thought it has something to do with Mormons holding bees in somewhat high regard.

I used to work with a guy that is mormon. He didn’t elaborate but his response when I asked about that (I don’t remember what he said exactly) more or less reinforced what I said above, that they hold bees in some high regard (my words, not his).

Sounds like Oly needs to step in and edumacate us.

 
Comment by Steve W
2008-09-22 14:24:36

Its origin may relate to the statement in the Book of Mormon that the Jaredites carried “with them Deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee” (Ether 2:3). The Deseret News (Oct. 11, 1881) described the symbol of the beehive in this way: “The hive and honey bees form our communal coat of arms…. It is a significant representation of the industry, harmony, order and frugality of the people, and of the sweet results of their toil, union and intelligent cooperation.”

from www (dot)lightplanet (dot)com/mormons/daily/history/1844_1877/beehive_eom(dot)htm

 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-09-22 15:57:23

Interesting in that honey bees are not native to the Americas and were brought over by European colonizers.

This is one of many criticisms of the Book of Mormon, at least as a historical document.

 
Comment by dude
2008-09-22 15:59:18

…and an unusually high regard for the colors yellow and black.

When I think of the word Deseret. I think of industry in it’s positive connotation. When was the last time you saw a lazy bee?

 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-09-22 16:01:21

You know, I think the NBA teams in Salt Lake and New Orleans should trade names. After all, the New Orleans team used to be the Jazz, and how does Salt Lake Hornets sound? Perfect!
PS: I enjoy visiting Utah very much. It’s a nice state. I don’t always agree with their politics, but they’re generally nice folks who used to be much discriminated against, themselves. It’s one of the reasons they got along well with the native population.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-09-22 17:12:34

Not to nitpick, but a hornet is more of a wasp and nothing like a honey bee.

My wife and I have 4 hives. We put a couple near our garden to help with pollination. Turns out this is a sh1tty idea since the bees are still hanging around when your trying to hoe or pick veggies. After getting stung a couple times I insisted we move them.

Supposedly, honey bees are responsible for 1/3 of food production in the US.

On the other hand some people act like without bees we would all starve. As was pointed out already, this continent was apparently flourishing quite nicely without them until the white man got here. The indians called them the “white mans fly”.

 
Comment by dude
2008-09-22 17:41:42

There were bees in the americas before columbus, just not the euro-honey type.

 
Comment by Mole Man
2008-09-22 19:56:27

Actually, I saw a lazy bee recently. A native carpenter bee was feeding deeply on a big yellow flower and appeared to go to sleep there for a while. Not having to collect extra for the hive results in a more easygoing lifestyle, it seems. That is, as long as native plants can be found.

 
Comment by Dani W
2008-09-23 08:40:52

Quoted previously:
“On the other hand some people act like without bees we would all starve. As was pointed out already, this continent was apparently flourishing quite nicely without them until the white man got here. The indians called them the “white mans fly”.”

OMG, you need to look around. With the collapse of the european honey bee colonies, there is a resurgence of native bees everywhere. There are hundreds of native bee species.

My vegetable garden with a wildfower border attracts native bumblebees, sweat bees, leafcutter bees, and many other native bees I don’t know the names of.

The bumblebees are especially cute because they’ll camp out in the poppies and in the morning you can see a sleeping bumblebee with the poppy folded up around him like a sleeping bag.

 
 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-09-22 15:24:08

The Beehive would have some special significance to LDS people.

The were some miracles attributed to the bees.In Utahrrr.

Comment by dude
2008-09-22 16:01:04

You may be thinking of seagulls. Stev was correct above. Deseret is the Jaredite name for the honeybee. Interestingly enough Sectionate is the Jaredite word for the africanized honeybee.

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Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-09-22 15:50:35

Yup. We are guilty as charged.

 
 
Comment by Stan_the_man_at_6500_ft
2008-09-22 13:23:45

Paso Robles is quite ugly these days as they overbuilt on the east side and allowed big box stores to move in. No jobs in the area so the only price support is from retirees. looook out belooooowwww!

 
Comment by InMontana
2008-09-22 13:33:28

the financial crisis in New York will be felt here at home in Siskiyou County in the form of not just lowered 401k and stock portfolio balances,

What? They didn’t get out of equities last year? Gee, I did. LOL

Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:21:47

A work friend of mine has a Republican dad. He wants the bailout because it will supposedly “save” the stock market, and he is near retirement age, so he can’t absorb a loss right now. I’m like, OK, single 15-year-old mothers should not get any state assistance after being put out in the streets by their family and boyfriend, but 50-something year-old men are ENTITLED to state-funded never-ending gains on all investments. That sounds fair and balanced.

I told her that I had gotten out of the stock market, and I didn’t think it was fair for the government to take my prudently saved $$ away and give it to her dad, who is essentially gambler. I think I hurt her feelings, but come on, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-09-22 13:38:12

Seems like not quite the right time to be opening a casino…

But you know how corporate America is, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!
=======================================================

“A new casino looking to hire staff has been swamped with applicants struggling to find employment in a poor economy. Red Hawk Casino, which is set to open later this year, has opened a hiring office in El Dorado Hills.”

“About 11,000 applications have streamed in for the 1,700 available jobs.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 13:46:56

I guess not everyone has yet connected the dots between unprecedented home equity ATM withdrawals and high levels of spending at casinos.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-22 14:42:28

Surely this is not that hard to do.

Oh well, who am I kidding? Half this country would have trouble taking instructions to touch their own noses.

Comment by Thomas
2008-09-22 16:37:07

Ow! My eye!

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Comment by Steve W
2008-09-22 18:22:16

Thomas, you have won my award for funniest post of the month.

There is no reward, other than the knowledge that you have done your job well.

(and FPSS wins set-up person of the month)

 
 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-09-22 14:57:59

The economy is in real dire straights in many areas. I read that Reno, NV has the highest unemployment in 23 years. It turned on a dime. Things are getting nasty.

Comment by homepop
2008-09-22 15:51:53

Bantering,

It’s actually the highest rate in 24 years.

We have had tent cities spring up here in Reno over the past few months.

Comment by MacAttack
2008-09-22 16:03:02

I am told that banks are asking people not to leave their former $1MM homes - just stay put and we’ll come to some agreement. Wasn’t it that way in Texas in the 1980s?

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Comment by DinOR
2008-09-22 16:25:06

Well… “until the housing market rallies” LOL!

( And uh… when will ‘that’ be? )

 
 
 
 
Comment by spacepest
2008-09-22 15:00:34

Wow, 11,000 applications for 1,700 jobs? At an Indian casino? Wow, people must be getting desperate.

And I don’t know how things are going in the Indian casinos, but in the past, all the ones I went to made it quite obvious that their hiring preference was for Native American Indians first. (I’m of Native American descent, and everytime I went in one, an employee would always nab me, run to find a manager, and try to offer me a job on the spot. Very creepy.) And of the Native American Indian applicants, preference was always given to the residents of the reservation that the casino was located on. Good luck to the non-rez applicants.

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-09-22 13:39:15


Price Per Sq Ft For Single Family Homes, New & resale

City Zip Code PPSF PPSF From peak
Palmdale 93550 $100 -63.8%
Palmdale 93551 $109 -45.7%
Palmdale 93552 $101 -52.6%
Palmdale 93591 $72 -66.4%

Average ALLZIP $96 -57.1%

Jas

Comment by Neil
2008-09-22 17:41:39

Coworkers, for some reason, are investing in Palmdale. They’re buying at $85/ft^2 for nice foreclosures with dead (or non-existant) yards.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-09-22 13:43:48


Except for Sacramento metro area PPSF in the remaining four metros in CA is declining at 23-36% annual rate. Las Vegas at -32% annual rate and Phoenix at -42%. All 25 metros at -17%.

There is no let up in housing price declines. There was a lull during two spring months (sales that originated during April and may).

Jas

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 13:49:14

There is a letup in oil price declines (record jump in oil prices reported today), but to the extent that translates into higher gas prices, households will have still less of their budgets available to sink into overpriced homes.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-09-22 14:09:56

Don’t forget food costs.

100 k costs about 600 dollars a month so 60 dollars is about 10k in equity or to make it easy 50 dollars == 10k of equity. So say expenses overall go up 150 dollars you lose about 30k you can spend on a house.

Watch out below.

 
Comment by calex
2008-09-22 14:23:56

Funny thing about that climb in oil prices today,
Gas futures hardly matched that rise,
Heating oil same thing as gas,

Sounds like a short squeeze to me.(Oct contract expired today?) More funny money getting burned by the sophisticated investors.

This market is so rigged by the big players right now, I don’t know why anybody would let their money into the game.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-09-22 14:59:58

The whole thing smells worse than a two week old corpse in a bathtub full of maggots.

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Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:28:54

Oh, yuck.

 
 
 
Comment by MEaston
2008-09-22 14:29:21

Raise interest rates or lower them the result is the same. Housing prices will continue to fall.

 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2008-09-22 13:48:33

“The good news is that most people purchase a home with a long-term view, and so those folks that find themselves in that position, the values will come back over time and they will be fine.”

I guess if actual statistics don’t work out for you, you just make the crap up. It’s just an opinion, right?

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 13:51:42

Their statistics always neglect to factor in the very high price of catching a falling knife, which could temporarily drive the present value of home ownership deeply negative. Imagine what the present value of a CA home purchased at 2005 prices would have looked like to someone with a perfect crystal ball?

Comment by Tim
2008-09-22 13:59:10

True. There is only one reason that someone would rationally buy a home if the debt service thereon and other costs associated therewith would be greater than renting the same home after taking into account the various applicable factors: expectation of short term appreciation gains that exceed opportunity costs.

Comment by Skip
2008-09-22 15:47:47

Another reason would be those that believe hyper-inflation is around the corner.

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Comment by dude
2008-09-22 17:47:26

It is my belief that inflation of the hyper type will further deflate housing prices. Shelter is a must have, luxurious shelter is a luxury.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 18:57:45

“…inflation of the hyper type will further deflate housing prices…”

The only way I could see this not happening is if incomes hyperinflated or if lending standards were (again) abolished. And I see neither of these as likely developments, at least at a large enough scale to counter housing price deflationary pressure. To the extent it had any effect, it appears the little bit of ‘higher than expected’ inflation we have already seen has only served to reduce the number of home buyers.

Of course, the bailout measure is a bit of a wild card, given that there is talk of trying to prop up housing prices, but the irony is that throwing a lot more money down the housing market rathole could actually increase pressure for a drop in the dollar, with import price inflation as a likely consequence.

 
Comment by dude
2008-09-23 07:06:01

Agreed, and the further a community is from a job center, the greater the effect of rising (imported) commodity prices.

All that without including the effect of multiple generations/extended family living under a single roof in order to share costs. It looks like little Bobby Toll was right, just not in the way he envisioned.

 
 
 
 
Comment by SMF
2008-09-22 14:47:41

Look at the value chart of any bubble, and notice how they are all similar. The start going up and up, and all of sudden they shoot right up for a little bit, and then slowly make their way back down to a little below the level they should have been at in a normal market.

Perfect example of that is the .com bubble.

And 8 years after its high, we are still less than 1/2 its value, with no chance of visiting that peak anytime soon.

Same goes with housing. That peak was so high, that there is absolutely and completely NO CHANCE of visiting 2005 values in our lifetime.

Yeah, hang on till you realize that because you don’t want to lose $40K you’ll end up loosing $80K.

Comment by Neil
2008-09-22 17:44:41

What’s going to happen when J6P realizes his/her credit will be repaired long before homes shoot back up in prices? Yep… stop servicing the debt.

2009 is going to be way too interesting.

Banks are going to become terrified of lending. Or… more precisely, bag holders are now scared and the mortgage market is going to have to be started from scratch.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:33:05

My worry is that banks will stop lending, causing me to lose my job at a debt-based company, AND my saved dollars will be worth nothing. Then what will I do?

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Comment by ugh
2008-09-22 20:45:00

Neil,

That should be put on Craig’s list:

Walk away, and your credit will fix itself years before “your” house regains its former value.

Save both time and money. Enjoy the real things of life, and let the bankers loose their sleep.

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Comment by EggMan
2008-09-22 14:24:17

“‘If you can afford to wait, tighten your belt and service your mortgage, it’s probably better to hold onto your house until the housing market rallies and you can gain back at least part of the peak value that was there before the housing bubble,’ said Andres Carbacho- Burgos, an economist with Moody’s Economy.com.”

“Lynn Cooper, president of Pacific Oak Foreclosure Service in San Luis Obispo, agrees. ‘It’s hard not to be concerned when your house is worth $200,000 less than it was two years ago,’ he said. ‘There again, are you living in a house (as a short-term investment) or a home?’”

Some FB is eating Mac & Cheez so they can pay off a “screw-you” mortgage on a bubble-priced shack, and they are taunted with “are you living in a home, or a home?” — I’m surprised Realawhores don’t get shot on the street.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-09-22 14:46:29

They will. They will be despised.

And the credibility lost will be a major factor down the road. Add in technology, I think the six-percenters are having a last hurrah before the abyss.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-09-22 15:08:27

Now that’s some funny jack! First, they sold them hook, line, and sinker with “real estate only goes up”. Then, “‘It’s hard not to be concerned when your house is worth $200,000 less than it was two years ago,’ he said. ‘There again, are you living in a house (as a short-term investment) or a home?’”

Smarmy!

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-22 16:31:07

It’s a time tested REIC bs line. When the bubble was expanding it made sense to run out and borrow as much money as they’d let you get your hands on. Of course now that it’s imploded entirely it’s hearth and home and all that.

Since when hasn’t the REIC wanted things both ways?

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:35:48

I love mac & cheese. You can throw some cut-up hot dogs and frozen veggies in the boiling water just a couple minutes before the mac is done. It’s, like, the best thing.

Comment by Walnuts
2008-09-23 22:03:10

dude, don’t forget the tuna fish. throw a can in after you mix it with the “cheese”….

 
 
Comment by Malibucreek
2008-09-22 20:50:05

I just want to take a moment to savor this….

“you can gain back at least part of the peak value that was there before the housing bubble”

Wow. Just… wow.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-09-22 14:30:35

“In California, some neighborhoods have been blighted by the plethora of empty homes. Joe Minnis, a real estate agent for Prudential California, knows foreclosed homes in San Bernardino that have been systematically stripped, trashed and tagged by gang members.”

“‘Neighbors are taking turns parking their cars in the driveways of vacant homes just to make it look like someone lives there,’ he said.”
=======================================================

Potemkin Valet Parking…

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-09-22 19:13:18

“Potemkin Valet Parking…”

That’s an awesome term you coined! :-)

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-09-22 14:40:12


PPSF (Radar Logic):

Cleveland, OH $89.53
Detroit, MI $93.73
Atlanta, GA $96.78
Columbus, OH $99.15
Charlotte, NC $99.75
Phoenix, AZ $110.83
St. Louis, MO $110.85
Jacksonville, FL $112.03
Tampa, FL $112.16
Las Vegas, NV $117.35
Milwaukee, WI $122.05
Denver, CO $136.55
Minneapolis, MN $146.02
Miami, FL $151.74
Philadelphia, PA $153.52
Sacramento, CA $153.57
Chicago, IL $185.43
Washington, DC $195.23
Seattle, WA $213.42
Boston, MA $215.32

25 MSA Composite $227.27

San Diego, CA $229.86
New York, NY $280.52
Los Angeles, CA $284.91
San Fran, CA $334.14
San Jose, CA $390.01

SJ and SF will definitely go below $200 PPSF and might end up around $150 during 2010-12. 2/3rd of the areas will be in $50-100 range. There is lot of weight to lose for fat home prices.

Jas

Comment by Blue Skye
2008-09-22 16:35:00

Hey Jas,

What does it cost to BUILD? I think it might be under $50 PSF without the granite.

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-09-22 17:09:27


Sorry, that is one area I am ignorant of. There are others, but we are talking about housing here.

Jas

 
Comment by Mole Man
2008-09-22 20:06:05

Getting below $50/sqft usually means using materials that won’t move on the resale market. Around much of NorCal $150/sqft is a typical bottom, and in San Francisco $250-300/sqft is common. Permit problems and tight city logistics contribute to that.

During the last crunch in the mid 1990s prices bottomed out around $300/sqft, incomes for people who can afford to stay here remain high, and this area has been around 2x flyover prices for a very long time. That is also a steep fall from the $750-950/sqft prices that have been common in desirable areas around SF.

To see livable units in SF reach $150-200/sqft seems like a bad bet. That would be around an 80% drop from peak, and around a half to two thirds of mid 1990s bottom prices.

Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:42:36

SF proper is weird. A lot of runaways move there and live like college kids, managing to pay $2,000/mo for a 1-bedroom apartment just by having 2 girls living in the bedroom and 2 guys living in the living room. I think they think they’re being cool and rebelious and stuff, but they usually go back home within 1-2 years. Eventually, America has got to run out of highlighted 16-year-old girls with dads who hate their boyfriends.

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Comment by CasaTostada
2008-09-22 17:31:28

Jas,

As a longtime lurker, infrequent poster, I am aware of your position on deflation and generally agree with your logic. However, over the past month, with the massive bailout efforts, I have becoming increasingly concerned about the potential for substantial inflation. In short, I can’t see how the US can backstop all of the bad debt in the country without, in effect, printing more money. Have the events of the past month changed your thinking?

CasaTostada

Comment by CasaTostada
2008-09-22 17:46:37

Excuse typo. “become increasingly.”

 
 
Comment by Arizzzona
2008-09-23 13:27:25

Nice post.

 
 
Comment by dude
2008-09-22 14:55:30

The dataquick zipcode numbers are out now.

Palmdale monthly report is back by poular demand. OK, it’s just one request but like the boy throwing starfish back into the ocean to keep them from drying out I say, “It mattered to that one.” And as I always say, “Save a starfish, kill a sea urchin!”, or is that.

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-09-22 15:09:49


Dude,
I posted the Palmdude numbers for you. Your favorite zip is closing in on $100.

Jas

Comment by dude
2008-09-22 15:23:54

Yep, I saw that. Sorry about the non-sequitur above, I was fighting off jack-booted thugs and accidentally hit the Add comment button.

Both 93551 and 93552 fell below 6 months of inventory based on August sales. Both those zips showed steadily increasign sales in each of the summer months. I attribute this to an increasing willingness amongst the lower half of the IQ bellcurve to catch rapidly falling knives. Additionally, based on my property by property assesment of sales, the greatest majority of newly REO property is not making it to the MLS.

In June for 93551 there were 148 title transfers recorded on SFR. 96 of these were trustee sales, new REO. That would mean to me that only 52 properties were bought by individuals, yet DQ numbers show 92 sales for that month and zip. How do we account for the discrepancy?

BTW, my gross monthly rent vs. own profit calculator now stands at nearly $3300/month. I may need to move up to a nicer rental to assuage my survivor guilt. LOL!

 
 
 
Comment by vmaxer
2008-09-22 16:14:00

“In the past, Asadourian said, banks never asked for proof of income if a customer’s credit score was higher than 680. Now, even customers with a FICO rating of 800 are having to prove their income, he said.”

When are these idiots going to get it. A high FICO score does not mean your qualified to pay back any loan amount. Your income to debt determines your ability to pay. The high FICO score just shows that you’ve been a good payer in the past and don’t have too much debt relative to your available credit. Proof of income should always be required. When in this mess because no one was checking incomes.

Comment by DinOR
2008-09-22 16:37:39

vmaxer,

That’s an excellent point. I think lenders are finally… getting it. All a high fico really shows me is that you’re likely looking at the credit file of someone that’s had a fortunate run ( present company excpeted )

In all too many cases it’s like driving by looking in the rear view mirror. Truth is, everyday you haven’t been seriously ill/laid off/divorced is a day closer to that perhaps becoming a reality? I’ll bet there are a LOT of lenders that allowed people w/ great ficos to have all kinds of access to cheap money that are regretting that now!

Comment by LongIslandLost
2008-09-22 18:34:56

Lot’s of systems operate by looking at past performance …. including cruise control (if the car is going too fast, add less gas, if the car is going too slow, add more gas). It’s known as feedback control. But, as any engineer knows, when a system changes, then feedback control fails.

The FICO scores used to predict who would and could pay back the money. Now the “could” part seems to be failing. And, on home mortgages, even the utility of using FICO to see who “would” pay back the loan is in question. As a curious bystander, I ask why.

As an engineer, I say it is time to adjust to the new reality …. who cares why.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-09-22 18:59:02

“But, as any engineer knows, when a system changes, then feedback control fails.”

Like, for instance, if the car on cruise control has a head-on collision with a brick wall?

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Comment by Big V
2008-09-22 20:52:45

We care why. If you don’t know why something is happening, then you will have a hard time figuring out how to react to it.

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Comment by arroyogrande
2008-09-22 16:44:26

“There again, are you living in a house (as a short-term investment) or a home”

One thing about living on the Cali Central Coast I never could stomach. All the damn vampires…I mean real estate cheerleaders.

It was ALWAYS about investment and house values here…at least in the three years I’ve been living here.

I’m now seeing bread and butter houses in the $400K range…not to shabby.

Not in a hurry to buy, either…

Comment by Paso Robles
2008-09-23 19:38:33

AG,

I second your opinion regarding the Central Coast area. BTW, I live a couple of blocks away from the Dorothy Street property-not interested in the least…many houses on that street (heck, in that general area) are definitely run down and not worth the price they are asking for.

 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-09-22 17:44:28

“‘We’re just trying to provide housing opportunities to people who don’t have a lot of money,’ said Ed Griffin”

Famous Last Words.

Comment by dude
2008-09-22 17:51:48

This jomolk hasn’t heard of renting?

 
 
Comment by Nozferatu
2008-09-22 19:41:40

“It’s evident that many homeowners on Dorothy Street take pride in their houses.

I don’t believe that. Most homes I have seen in California during the boom were utter piles of junk. There was no pride of home ownership…no one had time for such nonsense.

 
Comment by jb
2008-09-22 20:02:23

Nicer places in Ventura havent dropped much at all (maybe 100k/1mil).

OT - Lehman bros has set aside 2.5B in bonuses for execs…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/outrage-as-lehman-brother_n_128438.html

 
Comment by Brew Ha Ha
2008-09-23 06:42:57

from the AP article:

“Traditionally, the government and most lenders consider a homeowner spending 30 percent or more of their income on housing costs to be financially burdened. But that definition now covers almost 38 percent of American homeowners with a mortgage — 19 million of them.”

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-09-23 09:26:58

“Mission Accomplished!”

 
 
Comment by Jon
2008-09-23 17:40:14

Monterey Jack wrote: “There was a similar drop in Monterey country over the last year or so. Both areas have a Hawaii-like economy that splits primarily between very wealthy people and farm/service workers.”
Yep. And while the very wealthy people live primarily on the coast the farm/service workers live primarily in Salinas which is declining as follows:

Year Quarter Salinas, CA
2008 2 -23.7
2008 1 -16.2
2007 4 -13.9
2007 3 -10.8
2007 2 -8.02
2007 1 -4.17
2006 4 -1.64

http://www.ofheo.gov/hpi_city.aspx

I just backed out of buying house in Salinas where the loan guy said “Don’t worry. Prices have stabilized over the summer.”

Stabilized?!? Jeez. The depreciation rate is accelerating!

 
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