Things Stopped Selling, But They Didn’t Stop Building
The Sublette Examiner reports from Wyoming. “Sublette County has not only avoided the housing-market crash, it has remained protected from global economic instability. Jeff Patterson, 1st Bank president, pointed out there are no troubled banks in Wyoming, ‘particularly in our area,’and any savings that fall under the FDIC are guaranteed should a bank fail. On the bigger economic picture, Patterson sees the nation’s economic stability in terms of the government’s commitment to the system.”
“‘You know that the government is standing behind (the economy),’ he said. ‘And your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.’”
The Vail Daily on Wyoming. “A study by a California-based firm found that the median home price in Teton County had dropped 9 percent in the last year. But David Viehman, a local appraiser and real estate agent who has studied the market for number of years, says the Californians crunched the numbers in ways that don’t necessarily make sense.”
“As Viehman crunches the numbers, prices for single-family homes have actually increased in the last year by 2 percent. However, he discounts condos, townhouses and fractional ownerships — which may have been included in the tabulation of a 9 percent decline.”
“What clearly is happening, he says, is that locals continue to escalate their prices as if a boom were still occurring. As a consequence, lots of properties are on the market. ‘Locals can’t get over the fact that their property is not worth more than it was last year,’ Viehman told the Jackson Hole News&Guide. ‘They won’t come off their price.’”
The Flathead Beacon from Montana. “There are factors contributing to the lending climate in the Flathead that took effect long before the volatility of the last few weeks. The market for ‘jumbo loans,’ mortgages for more than $417,000, ‘disappeared sometime last spring,’ according to Bob Schneider, commercial market president for Northwest Montana branches of First Interstate Bank. While these loans aren’t widespread in the Flathead, they are often necessary when the buyer of a multi-million dollar home wants to finance part of the sale. But the housing market collapse in California, Arizona and Nevada has made secondary market financing for these loans hard to find everywhere.”
“‘We have to keep it in-house to satisfy that borrower,’Schneider said. ‘We don’t want to take the rate risk with a whole bunch of those loans.’”
“The slowdown in residential and commercial construction in the Flathead, which has set in over the last year, has few investors interested in financing such ventures. ‘Would we be looking at new subdivisions? No. Looking to finance a spec house? No,’ Schneider said. ‘That type of lending, I think, is being slowed down all over the valley.’”
The Idaho Mountain Express. “The housing and financial industry crunch has left another casualty, this time in Idaho’s Blaine County where a developer has suspended a planned 421-unit project. Kevin Adams, a Tennessee developer who is behind the so-called Sweetwater Community in Hailey, says ‘No one is doing anything out there - it doesn’t matter what the square footage price is.’”
“So far, only 49 town home units have been completed. None of the units has sold.”
The Seattle Times from Washington. “The Seattle-area housing market, once touted as bulletproof against the forces that were pulling down other markets across the country, is now stressing out sellers. Sellers are accepting terms they might have scoffed at before, such as contingent offers and lease-purchase deals.”
“The first offer Jason Stanifer got on his Factoria town house was in April — six months after he put it on the market and one month after he stopped paying his mortgage, which started the foreclosure clock ticking. While waiting for the deal to close, he took the town house off the market for more than a month. But that buyer backed out. In July, he got another offer and took the property off for two months. Again, the deal cratered, this time because of financing — one day before the deal was to close.”
“Stanifer bought the three-bedroom home four years ago and took out a second loan on it, investing the money in his mortgage-brokerage business. As his business dropped off dramatically in summer 2007, he did the math. With one of the loans, an adjustable-rate mortgage, about to increase by $1,000 a month, he realized he no longer could make the monthly payments, which totaled $4,000.”
“So he put the home on the market in October 2007 for $479,000, confident it would sell. But no offers came. When he received his first late-payment notice in March, ‘I was on my knees over a trash can’ getting sick.”
“He thought the town house would show better vacant, so he moved his family to a rental in May. By the time the third offer came along, he had dropped the price about $115,000 from the original listing.”
The Stranger on Washington. “Behind an overgrown laurel hedge, a house perches over Lake Union on the north slope of Capitol Hill. Andrew (not his real name) moved in two years ago, splitting the $2,200 monthly rent with three housemates. Although the relationship between the four tenants and their landlord devolved over time, that conflict, combined with the foreclosure crisis, produced an unexpected windfall: free housing.”
“The tenants found a notice from U.S. Bank taped to their front door. It said the landlord was $15,000 behind on his mortgage payments and that the bank would auction the house off in April. April came and went. ‘No one called us, no one said rent was late, and no one said that if we don’t pay rent we will be evicted,’ Andrew says. The residents…continued to pay utilities in their own names. But they didn’t pay any rent.”
“In early September, the bank posted another note on the door. This time, it offered the residents a deal: If they moved out within a week, they’d get $1,500 to divide among them. Knowing eviction could take months, the tenants let the week run out. They’re currently in their tenth month of rent-free living. ‘Neither the owner nor the bank has told us we need to leave the premises at all,’ Andrew says. ‘We are renters turned squatters.’”
“This August, home foreclosures in King County were up 60 percent over the previous year, according to RealtyTrac. Tammy Chan, a company spokeswoman, says banks repossessed 272 properties in King County via foreclosure that month; as of August, more than 1,300 repossessed homes were sitting in inventory, unsold.”
The Lake Oswego Review from Oregon. “The bankruptcy of Lake Oswego-based Renaissance Custom Homes is already squeezing Metro-area companies. Kim Whitman, VP of sales and marketing at Renaissance, said the company has been particularly hard hit by failed sales on 95 homes. Renaissance builds high-end housing in the $350,000 to $1 million price range.”
“Buyer inability to sell existing homes, however, left the company holding 95 custom-built homes in 2007. Those homes were nearly a third of the 318 built that year by Renaissance. Gary White at White Wykoff and Company said his advertising agency is owed $97,600 by Renaissance Homes. With uncharted waters ahead, he said it’s difficult to know what businesses tied to homebuilding should expect.”
“‘I’ve been in the business for 40 years and I have seen the spikes before and usually, like during the 70s and into the 80s, interest rates would spike and home sales would drop off,’ said White. ‘It’s always been a cyclical business. But nothing like this. This is just unbelievable.’”
The Oregonian. “In 2005, during the building boom, Bend added more than 2,000 new single-family homes. So far this year, the city of Bend has processed just 234 permits for single-family homes. Locals say the market dropped almost overnight.”
“‘People at first believed we were immune to the slowdown. By mid-June 2006, things stopped selling, but they didn’t stop building,’ said Sharon Miller, executive director for Neighbor Impact, a community action agency providing food, energy and housing assistance in Deschutes, Jefferson and Crook counties.”
“”Right now we’re seeing families and individuals who never thought they’d be here,’ said Angie Albiar, a local Human Services manager. The newcomers include builders, small-business owners, massage therapists, hairstylists — and many are ashamed to be there, Albiar said.”
“On Thursday, they included a middle-age blonde who works in the real estate industry. A deal she’d been waiting for had fallen through, and because she works on commission, that means she hasn’t had a paycheck since July 15. ‘I’ve been living off my savings and credit cards,’ she told Chris Perris, a food stamp intake worker. Now, the woman said, she’s two months behind on a $4,100 mortgage payment — on a property that would sell for less than she owes.”
“Later that day, Perris saw a builder and his wife. He’s still owed for past jobs. Meanwhile, he said, the flow of new houses has dried up. The couple just received a foreclosure notice from their bank because they’re two months behind on their $3,000 monthly mortgage.”
“‘We’ve come to the point where we can’t pay that mortgage anymore,’ the wife told Perris.”
The Bend Bulletin from Oregon. “With three months left in the year, Deschutes County is on pace to nearly triple the number of notices of default filed in 2007. The city of Bend’s Quarterly Financial Outlook released Monday reported 130 foreclosed homes for sale in the county in August, with a total of 139 foreclosed homes sold in the county since the start of the year.”
“RealtyTrac listed 390 bank-owned properties for sale in Deschutes County as of Wednesday.”
“It remains to be seen if the federal government’s mortgage rescue program, passed with much fanfare in July, and the current market bailout bill working its way through Congress will cushion the economic blow to Main Street. For Tumalo resident Robert Austin, a homebuilder with 39 years in the trade, it’s too little, too late. On Tuesday, a notice of default was filed against a 20-acre Tumalo property he built a home on two years ago. He and his wife intended to move into the house. But first, Austin had to sell his existing property, on a neighboring 20 acres.”
“After more than two years on the market, nobody has bought it, and Austin could no longer keep up payments on the two homes. ‘We did everything we could do,’ he said. ‘We made payments as long as we could and then couldn’t make payments anymore. Times have been real (bad).’”
“Austin has two other homes he built for sale. If neither sells, he’s likely headed for bankruptcy, he said. ‘I’ve built for 39 years and I’ve never been in a default position, and to be in this position is frankly just unbelievable to us,’ Austin said.”
“With so much foreclosure activity, it’s bound to affect property values for homeowners current on their mortgages, said Bend real estate appraiser Scott Buckles. When sales of distressed homes become predominant in a neighborhood, an appraiser has to take those values into account, he said. ‘If you think your house is worth $500,000, but four similar houses sell for $350,000 in a foreclosure process, then those become the predominant value indicator in the neighborhood, so it’s going to bring home values down,’ Buckles said.”
“He said he used to do upwards of 600 appraisals a year. Now, he’s down to eight or 10 a month, he said, and those are coming from the somewhat steady stream of divorces and deaths. Were it not for those, he said he’d have to fold up shop.”
“‘What’s happened, from the top of Awbrey Butte to the double-wides in Plainview, these people who bought overvalued property then took out a (home equity) line of credit then saw their values drop 20 to 25 percent and they are upside down, and no one is going to refinance that because they don’t have enough equity,’ Buckles said. ‘I don’t think the refinancing boom is coming back, even if rates drop to 3 percent, because no one has equity. It’s really distressing … I’m looking for something else to do.’”
‘On Tuesday, a notice of default was filed against a 20-acre Tumalo property he built a home on two years ago. Austin has two other homes he built for sale. If neither sells, he’s likely headed for bankruptcy, he said. ‘We made payments as long as we could and then couldn’t make payments anymore. Times have been real (bad).’
OK, I understand this guy is in a spot, but there was a reason ’spec house’ became a dirty word in Texas in the 80’s. This is just plain gambling, and was part of the reason land prices ran up so much.
‘‘I don’t think the refinancing boom is coming back, even if rates drop to 3 percent, because no one has equity. It’s really distressing … I’m looking for something else to do.’
Appraisers aren’t bad people, but this is part of the correction that must happen. A lot of these people in the housing business should find ’something else to do’, and it’s not the end of the world. Just a much needed adjustment.
The refinancing “boom” may not come back, but plenty of people have equity and would jump on a 3% mortgage. I’m renting now, but if I had a mortgage at 6% I’d go for a 3% refi and probably convert it to a 10 year loan while I was at it.
If it wasn’t for our magical, disappearing, paper, monopoly money mortgage interest rates would be around 2-3% all the time.
I’d refinance at 3% if the fees were small enough. I
There’s still the issue of price, of course - people making $50,000 a year can’t afford houses starting at $250,000+ dollars unless they have a huge downpayment (hahaha, right…) Too bad in many places on the East Coast, that insane 5 to 1 price to income ratio has yet to be reduced significantly.
Congress talks about regulation.. but they only talk about regulating Wall Street. Many liberals seem to have a axe to grind with Wall Street for some reasons. Yet the fraud by appraisers
to inflate prices is blindly overlooked, as is the ‘fake multiple offers’ situtation by realtors. Seems congress is unwilling to go after crooks on mainstreet. We as a nation are totally scewed up.
I just heard Barney Franks say this week, those who worked for a living who put up their money into bank deposit accounts so the poor masses can now buy homes and now have their loans modified lower, instead of being forclosed on, will take large loses.
Liberals in Congress is hell bent on taking as much from working people and distribute to those who didnt invest in them self and have a propensity to spend.
“but they only talk about regulating Wall Street”
God love you Sir! Absolutely GD right. Look, with the way that “securitization” spread like a virus ( and the nearly UN-limited capacity and Fannie and Freddie ) realtors and MB’s were basically cooking up their very own “underwritings”!
All these REIC players ( working solely on commission ) conspire with one another to sell, finance and appraise properties ( with little to NO over sight ) and then heave them directly into the MBS Pool! Well how the hell was that right?
I’ve “bird dogged” a few deals in my day but once there’s been a referral made, I was quickly ( and rudely ) elbowed aside so that MBA’s that specialize in these matters could take the helm from there! ( You get your modest “finder’s fee” ) and are told to STFU until a f-o-r-m-a-l offering is made! Yet ’somehow’ when real estate is involved..?
We just had a seller give us the “multiple offer” spiel. We withdrew our offer and offered him the opportunity to deal with just one at a time.
“We just had a seller give us the “multiple offer” spiel. We withdrew our offer and offered him the opportunity to deal with just one at a time.”
Yup, they’re still trying that crap around here too. DH and I looked at a house last weekend and the owner kept telling us we had to hurry because there were two other “seriously interested” parties. Well if they can get financing, they can have it.
climber,
LOL! ( Good for you ) At this late stage of the game I can’t believe there are still those attempting that lame ploy? Can’t say for sure how I’d have responded other than to say “Are there ‘that’ many qualified buyers out there?”
You have an amazing grasp of the English language.
You show du!
LOL! If you only KNEW how Chicagoans “self-talk” played, you wouldn’t have ‘anything’ nice to say! ( dee’s, doze and dat’s, Oh and “tru” )
“Many liberals seem to have a axe to grind with Wall Street for some reasons.”
LOL
Some reasons….let me think…why might people be pissed off at Wall Street?
I’m stumped!
bananarepublic,
Oh I don’t think anyone is challenging that. Yet it doesn’t mean that *beosguy’s points are without merit. That animosity pre-dates even Lay, Skilling and Kozlowski.
Right now the REIC is getting a HUGE Get Out Of Jail Free card and WS is taking the fall all by their lonesome. Visit Bank-Implode for some great video on congressional hearings where Franklin Raines arrogantly defends the mismanagement at FNM/FRE. Totally laughable.
The only reason NAR isn’t in any kind of financial peril is simply the fact they don’t have any inventory. They sold the home buyer down the creek ( that’s a given ) and now they’re washing their hands of the very people that processed the loans THEY originated. How sweet is that?
“That animosity pre-dates even Lay, Skilling and Kozlowski.”
Exactly! where was the outrage when appraisors were complaining back in 2004 that realtors were pumping prices higher or when RE association were making up blantent lies. I been on the side line in California since 2000… Our bubble dates back to 1998!
As for Wall Street .. try Fannie and Freddie Mac.. under Frank Raines we had the largest corporate scandel and biggest lending fraud plus biggest economic bubble….
I guess being in the Clinton administration got his that kind of clout! Why so people without means can buy homes they couldnt afford otherwise…
“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his wants.”
That’s the name of the game - don’t be a producer/saver or you’re a sucka!
“In 2005, during the building boom, Bend added more than 2,000 new single-family homes. So far this year, the city of Bend has processed just 234 permits for single-family homes. Locals say the market dropped almost overnight.”
I took a road trip through Oregon and drove through Bend heading back to Utarr in, oh, I think 2001? 2002? Before Bend really got discovered and f*cked up. I mean, 2,000 more homes in one year?! In that little beautiful laid-back mountain town? That is just such craziness!
I haven’t been back to Bend since then. I don’t want to. I am pretty sure I would end up wailing wildly with grief and then ” ‘on my knees over a trash can’ getting sick.” Just like that Stanifer REtard in the Seattle article, only barfing for a different reason.
Anytime I feel tempted to have a touch of sympathy for any REtard involved in this credit/housing bubble mess, why, I think about a place like Bend and what was done to it in the name of greed and I change my mind about the sympathy thingie right then and there.
The good news is that it’s going to be cheap to live there again. Back in the day it was small, scenic, and had no jobs. Now it’s going to have a lot of cheap housing, no jobs, and be somewhat less scenic.
What are these “jobs” you speak of? It seems we have less of them every day!
But The Decider told us that we don’t need jobs, and that sending everything overseas would be good for ‘merika since now we can buy lead-painted toys and antifreeze toothpaste with our credit cards. Shopping is patriotic!
Argh…
A guy I work with is buying landscape plants he finds on Craigslist from Spec Builders ready to walk from unsold homes out in Queen Creek AZ. The neighboors come out all pissed off, call the cops etc. Cops do nothing after all the spec builder still owns the home and if he wants to rip all the cactus plants out and sell them it’s his choice. Also the insides of the houses are gutted of any fixtures, appliances, doors, etc. Nice.
This is the collateral the Government plans to sell a few years down the road for a profit ? A few years down the road these homes will have fallen down.
They won t even allow section 8 people to live in such a squalid McMansion!!!!!
—————————————————-
This is the collateral the Government plans to sell a few years down the road for a profit ?
Comps as an appraisal method clearly failed badly in the bubble, and fails even worse in a falling market. Clearly a method is needed to determine the actual tangible value of a home for the purpose of mortgage evaluation. Obviously, during the bubble valuations given for the purposes of getting a loan were completely wrong, or we would not even be thinking about trillion dollar bailout of the banks who loaned money based on these assessments. I would propose something based broadly on area averages with specific weighting for pluses or minuses of the home, where the evaluation was weighted strongly on area incomes and rents in addition to the property it’s self. Also reasonable projections must be set which exclude the bubble effect of sub prime and option loans, perhaps factoring in average sale prices in an area over sevral decades, then adding in a small amount for natural price increases over time, say 5% or less a year over a decade, to eliminate the violent ups and downs of the market and determine a truer weighted valuation, upon which a bank could reasonably loan money and expect not to suffer a huge loss. It is then up to the buyer if they feel like kicking in the difference in cash and risk their own money in the transaction.
Hey, speaking of Montana, my new Billings housing video is out. It’s 30 minutes long, and it also looks at a few other parts of south-central Montana:
Housing Boom in Billings, 2008
Nothing less than the excellence we’ve come to expect! I especially enjoyed the segment on… “The Spires” was it? On one hand they’re telling their potential buyers what a great “infestment” it will be and on the other they’re attempting to dump the whole mess on Craigslist? Too funny!
The Shire. A little hobbitville. One house got built, then it died. You might find the website out there still.
I wouldn’t lurk around an abandoned Shire… you might run into Ringwraithes or something worse… like real estate “infesters!”
I salute you on outstanding and entertaining work. I really enjoyed taking a look at Montana — I’ve never been. I do have to say this, keeping in mind that my state of Florida is and shall remain the undisputed heavyweight champion of American tackiness: the new construction that your video showed is some of the most off-putting architecture and Halloweenish use of color that I have ever seen. Some of those Billings south-side condos and that Red Lodge stuff, give me a break!
And that condo conversion in Livingston is laugh-out-loud funny. Selling converted hotel rooms for $80,000, just crazy.
Well, as we all known, Montana is very short on land, so naturally people will live in condos stacked on top of each other… like ants in an anthill… while all around, boundless and bare, the lone and level prairie stretches far away.
I’ve only watched half so far and congratulate you on a job very well done.
Tango, I remember watching one of your vids eons ago (2 years?), when I first discovered the HBB. It was really top drawer. You were way ahead of the curve. Will watch this one and thanks in advance.
Wow - watched the whole thing - great work! If only the television networks were as thorough and reasoned as this.
Excellent video. Are there really 100 casinos in Billings? They must be the largest employer in town.
Tomorrow, I’m going to lecture on the FIND AND REPLACE feature of Word Processors. While I was trying to think of an example, lo and behold, the government provided me with one: FIND “Bailout”; REPLACE WITH “Rescue”!
And speaking of Lake Oswego, we STILL have sellers here who are listing their properties like it’s 2 or 3 years ago….
Jean S,
No….! Seriously?
If ever there were a place in OR where denial runs rampant, it would be Lake O. What makes it even more noteworthy is that there have been very few if any tech IPO’s or ‘any’ kind of innovation coming out here for the last several years?
So w/ zilch trendy start-ups how else can we describe this other than a Ponzi?
yep…as you well know, LO real estate runs on Calif. transplants. I see no acknowledgements that THAT particular Ponzi scheme is a bit wobbly these days.
My personal favorite (mostly because I walk by it every day) is a cottage on Upper Drive (nothing remarkable, but decent lot) that was initially listed at $650K over a year ago. I think she now has it listed for $595K…and oh yeah, now there’s a “for rent” sign on it. And oh yeah, she originally bought it (according to Zillow) for $90K.
I always check the 10 year trend.. here in Silicon Valley we had a 300% increase in prices.
IN the past decades, appreciation has always trended with inflation.
No mistake about it. Many regions will fall back to long term trends… housingbubblebust.com/OFHEO/Major/NorCal.html
Jean S,
In the words of the ‘Great Athena’ ( old time bubble blogger ) Please, Please let me make your retirement! ( One-payment-at-a-time… ) Gosh, no thanks.
I have plenty of friends that live in 97035 and they’re tickled their home value has gone “up” but the more established crowd is ticked their taxes have gone up that much. Most really weren’t relying on home appreciation to fund their retirement/lifestyle. Kind of sad for the ones that did.
lots of long-time folks (and some newer arrivals) are irritated because young families are priced out…not good for any town when that happens.
personally, I can’t STAND the Sonoma transplants, and will probably snicker openly as their “sonoma lifestyle” falls down the rabbit hole of this economy.
So many bought crap they could not afford here on the teaser rates and congratulated themselves and flaunted their “wealth” incessantly. Many others HELOC’d one nearly paid off residence to the max. Many of them will fall HARD. Some on the cherished east side of town are already sliding down the slope of hope.
– September 2006
I love this quote. It’s like the West’s version of South Florida’s “..totally new economic model.”
Also, back to the present day:
Uhhh, hello? This is Wyoming! Somebody get some rope.
People in Wyoming are living in a dream world. The crash will be harder here than a lot of other places. There’s no economy outside of oil, gas and coal.
I’d say those 3 things are gonna make for a pretty steady economy, crash1. We need that stuff, and we’re probably gonna need all of it.
We’ve needed it since it was discovered, yet it’s still a boom bust economy. Nothing stable about it.
Sad… I’d expect better of Wyoming! Dependent on DC - yeesh!
Funny that there isn’t much there other than natural resource related jobs… you’d think somebody by now would have been successful with something else. But who knows what could have been since we’ve basically been operating in a scam-based economy for 10+ years now as our good jobs vanished and were replaced with service sector serfdom or Ponzi schemes.
‘And your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.’
This quote is just begging to be printed onto some custom made urinal cakes.
I have faith in neither…..
Those urinal cakes and the faces of your Senators and or Congressman upon rolls of toilet paper would make great gifts this Christmas…provided we’re not all living in a cardboard box by then:)
mikey,
I’m surprised at you! ( Remember the graffiti in the Enlisted Men’s stalls ) Above the roll of TP it said: “Instant Officer I.D Cards”. Just insert Senator!
The first batch should be delivered free to the Kingston Mines.
Ben, you beat me to posting a link to the Seattle Times article. Man, was I thrilled when I saw the headline!
“More sellers are growing desperate as homebuying stalls locally”. What delightful words.
I sat the paper down reverently and went and got more delicious coffee and chocolate sticks to enjoy as I read the piece, so I could savor it and really rejoice properly.
This was my favorite bit:
“Stanifer bought the three-bedroom home four years ago and took out a second loan on it, investing the money in his mortgage-brokerage business…so he put the home on the market in October 2007 for $479,000, confident it would sell. But no offers came. When he received his first late-payment notice in March, ‘I was on my knees over a trash can’ getting sick.”
Get used to the position, guy.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
‘We are renters turned squatters.’
I think those guys should reevaluate their position.
I think they just might be “professional property caretakers”. Taking care of a property that would otherwise be vacant and exposed to looting and the wintery elements in exchange for rent.
They should be paid - after all, they’re the equivalent of live-in janitors. It’ll cost the owner, in the long run, less to give them a small wage to keep the place up than it will to hire someone to fix it after a year or so of dereliction.
BTW - what’s the time-limit on legally gaining the deed of a property as a squatter in the US?
IIRC, you need to occupy the property for 5 consecutive years in the UK - is that the same over here?
I know there’s a technical term for it, but the java hasn’t quite hit the right spot yet this a.m.
I think you mean adverse possession:
n. a means to acquire title to land through obvious occupancy of the land, while claiming ownership for the period of years set by the law of the state where the property exists. This can arise when a rancher fences in a parcel contending he was to get title from some prior owner, and then grazes cattle on the property for many years without objection by the title holder. Payment of real property taxes and making improvements (such as paving or fencing) for the statutory period (varies by state) are evidence of adverse possession but cannot be used by a land grabber with no claim to title other than possession.
Adverse possession is the term, and the conditions to meet it vary by state.
It’s called “adverse possession” in Calfornia…..
In California, adverse possession requires five years of continued use which is “open and notorious” and “adverse” to the owner’s interest. The maintenance and upkeep and improvement of the property is required and for the five years of use the property taxes must be paid for the property being adversely possessed.
Thanks guys!
Adverse possession might come up, but I’d bet against that. The state will come around with one of two possible deals. Whoever pays the back taxes owns it is one. That doesn’t work well because usually no one can or will, so the government ends up owning a house they don’t want. The other more likely deal is whoever starts paying taxes owns it. That would legally involve the state taking the home first, but the occupant promising to pay taxes would get the title. That is certainly adverse, but strictly speaking it is more of a negotiated tax settlement. That we are not seeing a lot of these yet indicates the bottom is still quite a way off.
During my short but memorable stint as a squatter, I called myself an “asset manager.” It’s now on my short but memorable resume.
“‘You know that the government is standing behind (the economy),’ he said. ‘And your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.’”
Clean-up on aisle 666, please.
“‘You know that the government is standing behind (the economy),’ he said. ‘And your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.’”
…and this is your Brain on the Koolaid Drugs kiddies
“Your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.”
Somebody shoot him with a wooden arrow (preferably while he is attending a car race!
With insane comments like this about blind obedience to the very people who allowed this to happen, I think we can solve our energy problems.
Just hook up the bodies of the Founding Fathers, who are no doubt spinning in their graves at very high speeds, to generators and we’ll have unlimited power, at least as long as people remain trusting and stupid… like I said - unlimited power!
Speedingbullet, the term for squatters gaining ownership is “adverse possession.” It is harder than most people think, though. It requires no action by the owner … so even threatening eviction should restart the clock running on the 5 years.
From the article on Jackson Hole real estate:
“As Viehman crunches the numbers, prices for single-family homes have actually increased in the last year by 2 percent. However, he discounts condos, townhouses and fractional ownerships — which may have been included in the tabulation of a 9 percent decline.”
Condos and townhouses are where you usually see the first drops, and I can tell you there is stress in the market in JH, with many significant price drops.
It appears that Jackson Hole is behind the curve a far as the correction goes, but I have no doubt that the drop in prices will be as significant here as any place in the U.S., and maybe more since there is no industry to support the population in the event of a severe recession.
I live in Star Valley, about an hour south of Jackson and prices here are coming down significantly. I am looking to buy a home and have been following the market for over two years and have seen hundreds of thousands of dollars in price reductions on homes originally selling in the $500k to $600k range. Inventory of for sale homes in the valley is up significantly and sales are way down, probably 50% of last years sales. Some of the houses I have been following have been on the market for well over a year, some close to two years.
I hear an echo - insert the words Western Colorado for Jackson and it’s the same.
Anyone notice rents rising lately? I have been watching CL for a couple months looking to rent another place across town. What used to be $1000 per month is now in the $1400 range. This seems like it is happening quite quickly.
No, haven’t seen that.
Just the opposite here in Chicagoland.
You’re probably seeing accidental landlords trying to recoup as much of their underwater PITI as they can, from some ‘dumb renter.’
What many of us have noticed is that these properties eventually get foreclosed, and remaining real rentals [usually owned free and clear, save taxes] continue to go down in rent.
Ancedotal, to Suffolk County, Long Island, I am seeing apartments and houses go empty for a long time. One landlord of a 60-unit complex told me he has 8 empty units — and the super told me 5 of the tenants occupying their one-bedrooms actually left the state.
While technically impossible for all areas to experience loss of demand due to population decreases, but I think we’re going to see stories soon of people leaving my neck of the woods, being the NY-NJ Metro area, and ditto for Cali, FLA, Mazzland, etc. Cue the U-Haul index.
My rent has gone up 50% in 22 years. It used to be capped at 1% but lately the govt has allowed 3% increases if the owner can show increased expenses from utilities and repairs and maintenance.
Here is what NOBODY ever gets about rent control. If you cap the rents the price of the house stays LOW.
If your house was not controlled your landlord would never have been able to buy it in the first place.
So landlord can wait 20 years till you die or mover to a nursing home or Floriddah to rennovate and make it a free market rental.
OR do it illegally by forcing you out…hanging dead cats in the hallway to stink you out
http://www.channel3000.com/money/17580232/detail.html
Rents are rising all over W. Colorado, and it ain’t all from the oil patch, as it’s happening in places where there is no oil patch. I think some of it is contagion/greed, landlords are seeing prices go up and think they’ll raise theirs, some of the higher stuff is now just sitting.
For example, I called 8 months ago on a house in Unaweep Canyon, a pretty place out in the middle of nowhere between Grand Junktown and Gateway, Colorado. They wanted $1700/month, told me they’d been getting $2000, no problem. Now it’s back on the market for $1600 and keeps getting relisted.
westslope dot craigslist dot org/apa/856178565 dot html
The price of gas and the economy is causing places like this to drop. I really think the peak of the curve has been hit and we’re going to see rents drop here, albeit slowly. Am also noticing lots of houses for rent in the places that really overbuilt, like Montrose and Fruita.
“‘People at first believed we were immune to the slowdown. By mid-June 2006, things stopped selling, but they didn’t stop building,’ said Sharon Miller, executive director for Neighbor Impact, a community action agency providing food, energy and housing assistance in Deschutes, Jefferson and Crook counties.”
And people may well keep building. Given the chance I’d much rather have a house built to my specs than one built for the mass market. I’m willing to sacrifice some sacred square footage for a more energy efficient and durable structure. In Colorado there’s no excuse for having more than a trivial energy bill. Yet, the builders here seem to totally ignore the natural bounty offered by our local environment.
climber,
I’ve often felt the same way. The inventory built during the boom couldn’t have been more frantic. Cutting corners was the rule. Now that builders are just trying to keep the crew busy there’s bound to be more attention to detail.
Oh and lots are selling for 1/2 to 1/3rd of what they did at peak.
In Colorado there’s no excuse for having more than a trivial energy bill.
It never ceases to amaze me that friends in San Diego spend more to heat their homes in Winter than I do here in the “great white north”.
Speaking as a Californian that didn’t come through for those of you in other states counting on me to buy your house built with me in mind, I apologize.
You are forgiven. Go and sin no more.
I’ve been sort of checked out of the real estate market for the last few years because of high prices and the only thing I monitor is the emails I get from an automated realtor search. I talked with my dad a bit last night and he looks at real estate listings in newspapers, pamphlets, etc. and he said that there are actually some “deals” out there. And by deals he means less than $100 per sq. ft. in average areas. I know my real estate emails always show the same thing:
1. They’re a must see
2. They have granite counter tops
3. They’ve got that awesome soaker tub
4. They have home owners association fees.
5. They are ridiculously priced
Based on the articles in this post and what my dad says, I need to lower the dollar amount of my search window. It’s beginning to look like my search window self-selects “I want 2006 price” idiots, rather than people who are starting to capitulate. Gonna have to update those parameters!
Bend OR - is so half appropriately named. It’s true name should be - BEND OVER - (It’s a comin’, as in our financial screwing) as a calling to the whole country.
We didn’t get inland much, but we were traveling up the OR coast a couple of weeks ago and the amount of places for sale in the beach communities was remarkable.
Actually, there’s a lot of stuff for sale all the way from NorCal (above San Francisco) all the way to Forks in WA, along the 101.
It might be people trying to unload vacation homes. Also, according to the landlord of the place we stayed at in Long Beach, WA - a lot of retired people are moving out once one of their spouses pass, and the widow/widower moves nearer to family.
Whatever the reason, there’s a lot of ‘for sale’ and ‘for sale by owner’ signs planted by the 101 at the moment.
Have a friend in Bend who wants to sell her house and move, she says she’s waiting for prices to come back. Second verse, same as the first.
Batting .000, the pitcher for Hailey’s Comets… Kevin Adams
=======================================
“The housing and financial industry crunch has left another casualty, this time in Idaho’s Blaine County where a developer has suspended a planned 421-unit project. Kevin Adams, a Tennessee developer who is behind the so-called Sweetwater Community in Hailey, says ‘No one is doing anything out there - it doesn’t matter what the square footage price is.’”
“So far, only 49 town home units have been completed. None of the units has sold.”
“‘You know that the government is standing behind (the economy),’ he said. ‘And your faith in the financial system should be as strong as your faith in the government.’”
psst… it took the “government” 5 days to get water to the Superdome after Hurricane Katrina.
“A lot of these people in the housing business should find ’something else to do’, and it’s not the end of the world. Just a much needed adjustment.”
So I also believed. But now I’m beginning to think “it’s different this time,” and not in a good way, both because of the scale of the bubble in housing prices and because of all the other things that are coming unglued, like our consumer-debt driven economy.
Well, now that the USA economy is imploding, we can expect to get some SERIOUS house price declines over the next 2 years. Talked to the wife about the opportunities we are going to be presented with. I think the biggest issue confronting us is not jumping in too soon.
The Baby Boomer Ponzi scheme is unwinding. I don’t claim to have any idea how bad it will get, but I suspect historical methods of valuing real estate will go out the window this time.
USA economy is imploding ?
An example of an imploding economy would be something like USSR in 1990-91. If you seen it then you would understand. If you been around the block and seen the fluctuations in the US Economy in the 70s 80s and 90s then you would hardly be calling this “Imploding”.
Im glad I didnt vote for Mondale and so is everyone else !
The bottom is clear … as always historically prices track inflation… our prices in NoCal will fall 50% from peak to get back to long term trends.
housingbubblebust.com/OFHEO/Major/NorCal.html
Prices will fall to long term trends that are supported
by incomes. Fundementals is what counts. It wasnt the boomers who kept saying incomes dont matter anymore. Sadly its been the y-gen (air-heads) with the Im gonna be a millionaire before 30 mentality who been indulging in RE.
I dont see them going after a decent education or a decent job. All I ever kept hearing from these egg-heads
is “but everyone everyone wanna live in the SF Bay Area
—- or Seattle, NYC, or Boston”. I just wanna puke!
Let the generation wars restart..
Say what, Ben???
Peter Schiff - President Euro Pac Capital
Christopher Thornberg - Partner Beacon Economics (formerly of UCLA Anderson School)
Lawrence Yun- Chief Economist NAR
all chime in on same Bloomberg video
http://europac.net/Schiff-Bloomberg-9-29-08_lg.asp