October 3, 2008

Don’t Be Afraid To Walk Away

It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “The Manhattan residential real estate market cooled in the third quarter. In addition to falling prices, properties are also sitting on the market longer these days. Despite the economic uncertainty, real estate advisors say the city is well-positioned for the changes. The city has less than eight months of inventory, compared to locations such as Miami, which have as much as five years of inventory on hand.”

“‘New York is not going to see a huge drop in prices, it just doesn’t happen like that here,’ said Pamela Liebman, CEO of the Corcoran Group.”

“Long after the crisis began in 2007, many investors and real estate executives expected a ‘correction’ to the rapid escalation in property values. But after Lehman Brothers, the venerable firm that had provided billions of dollars of loans for New York real estate deals, collapsed two weeks ago, it was clear that something more profound was afoot.”

“‘Any continued impediment to the credit markets is awful for the national economy, but it’s more awful for New York,’ said Richard Lefrak, patriarch of a fourth-generation real estate family that owns office buildings and apartment houses in New York and New Jersey. ‘This is the company town for money. If there’s no liquidity in the system, it exacerbates the problems. It’s going to have a serious effect on the local economy and real estate values.’”

“Less than two weeks after the onset of a financial crisis headlined by the bankruptcy of major investment bank Lehman Brothers, Harvard students preparing for careers in finance continue their job search in an uncertain economic climate. ‘With this wild amount of money you hear people being paid on Wall Street, those days are probably over,’ said Robin Mount, the Interim Director of Harvard’s Office of Career Services.”

“Mortgage broker Tom Milligan IV, of Newtown, said he sees some real opportunities for getting good deals and also for some real problems in the market. He said Bridgeport, especially multi-family homes are selling for nearly $100,000 less than they were.”

“‘Houses are marketed as your biggest investment,’ said Vince Valvo, for The Warren Group, which released its August report on trends in Connecticut. ‘Something we buy to use for a while until we can turn a profit.’ He said if people just bought the homes with an eye that they will live there, it might be better for them.”

“At the start of the week there were 3,983 home loans available on the market, but this had fallen to 3,402 by the end of business on Friday, the lowest number ever recorded by MoneyFacts. Michelle Slade, at MoneyFacts, said: ‘I am shocked by how quickly rates were pulled following the nationalisation of Bradford & Bingley on Monday. It is quite alarming how quickly the market had deteriorated once again.’”

“Simon Rubinsohn, chief economist at the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, said: ‘Equity withdrawal turning negative for the first time since the late 1990s sends a clear message that the downturn in the housing market is reducing access to equity built up in property over recent years.’”

“Estate agents have rubbished claims that Durham is the only city in the country to see house prices rise, bucking the national trend. Paul Rickaby, managing director of Durham-based estate agent move2direct, said: ‘Durham City is fighting the price drop better than outlying villages. But prices have certainly come down. Every day it seems to get worse and worse. It’s a nightmare.’”

“House prices, which began slipping in May, have now erased all gains made in the past year in most markets across the Lower Mainland. Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver president Dave Watt added that generally, ‘it appears that truly our market, that we’ve been complaining was becoming unaffordable, has adjusted to reflect that [unaffordability].’”

“Tsur Somerville, director of the centre for urban economics and real estate at the Sauder School of business at the University of B.C., said what happens in Vancouver’s market for pre-sale condominiums is another unknown. ‘Do investors who bought downtown condo [pre-sales] hold them, or try to dump them?’ Somerville said. ‘That’s really where your big questions are.’”

“Ivan Hardie (English; 38 years old; 15 years in Japan) Condominium for a family of three in Shinjuku Ward, Tokyo, purchased in 2001 for ¥39 million. ‘I bought a condo because it’s cheaper than renting, and chose the particular property because of its size and location. I’m selling my property at this time and can’t sell it at a profit (selling price now is ¥32.8 million).’”

“With total dollar sales volume down almost a billion dollars from last year, Honolulu’s housing market is hurting. Across honolulu, the median price for a single-family home has dropped $60,000 from the same time last year.”

“‘This is a 4-bedroom, 2 bath home, has over 2,000 square feet. You have an elementary school right behind,’ said Realtor Chelsey Flanagan. ‘There’s a harley in the garage, I don’t know if they’ll throw that in, I can ask.’”

“With the housing industry at the core of the nation’s financial woes, locals have noted a downturn since last spring in Fallon’s housing market. Rhonda J. Jones at Western Nevada Title Company said that ‘there has been a significant increase in foreclosures in all price ranges.’”

“Fallon resident Karl Buckmaster, a former banker turned buyer of that type of property , said he no longer buys them. ‘It’s not worth it,’ he said. People owe more than the house is worth, Buckmaster explained.”

“Buckmaster advises people to stick to only the amount they can reasonably afford to pay. ‘Don’t be afraid to walk away, to say no.’”

“According to (a website) the number of foreclosures in Maricopa County could double in the next 120 days. Lloyd Lane, who manages the site, says 350 foreclosures were filed on Wednesday alone and Maricopa County is currently averaging 300 to 500 foreclosure listings per day. The number of foreclosures in the county will increase according to Lane who says there are currently 20,812 bank owned homes in Maricopa County with an additional 26,000 facing foreclosure.”

“‘All the houses are for sale in this neighborhood, everybody is leaving and there are a lot of abandoned homes,’ said Araceli Elias who lives near 67th Avenue and Thomas Road.”

“Yes prices are definitely down from the housing bubble, but they’re still higher than some pre-bubble costs. The National Association of Realtors says the average cost of a home is $212,400. That’s down eight percent from the $230,000 peak price in 2006. The problem is it’s still up 39 percent from the pre-boom price of $153,000 in 2001.”

“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

“As it struggles through the housing crisis, home builder D.R. Horton Inc. is unloading land across California at big discounts. As builders try to survive one of the worst housing downturns in U.S. history, land buyers and brokers expect more such tax-motivated fire sales of undeveloped land this year. That could set a new low for land prices in California and other troubled housing markets.”

“Over the last decade, attorney William Brennan and other grassroots consumer advocates came to the State Capitol more than a dozen times to warn Georgia legislators that the flourishing, free-wheeling subprime mortgage market posed a threat not only to borrowers but to the state. At one of the more raucous hearings on the predatory lending law, a crowd of young mortgage brokers jeered during Brennan’s testimony about the urgent need to clamp down on subprime loans. One broker commented that Brennan worked for Legal Aid because ‘he couldn’t get a job in the real world.’”

“Brennan still has his job. That condescending broker probably doesn’t.”

“The reality is that in the frenzy of easy loans and rapidly rising property values, many Americans simply bought houses they could not afford. (Of) many questions Congress still needs to answer..one is raised by Florida Sen. Bill Nelson: Why did securities backed by risky subprime mortgages earn very top credit ratings, which encouraged pension funds and insurance companies to buy them?”

“Though all eyes have been focused on faltering mortgage-backed securities, the Treasury Department last month amended its original $700 billion bailout plan to buy up a wider range of troubled assets after heavy lobbying by financial industry groups.”

“Delinquencies are rising fast in the $2.6 trillion consumer credit market. While the sector’s troubles aren’t as severe as those in the $14.8 trillion mortgage arena, experts expect Americans to fall more behind in their payments as the economy continues to weaken. ‘Once you dig into it, you realize the credit crisis has spread far beyond the mortgage sector,’ said Martin Weiss, founder of Weiss Research ‘When you sum up all the debt sectors and all the potential for bad debt, you recognize that $700 billion is a drop in the bucket.’”

“Many analysts have attributed a tightening of credit in many of these markets to a credit crunch. This is mistaken. Virtually all of the key people in policy positions completely missed the housing bubble as it inflated. The fact that they still seem to not recognize the nature of the housing bubble is likely to further compound their mistakes.”

“The economy is sinking into recession primarily because of the loss of trillions of dollars of housing bubble wealth; the credit situation is very much a secondary factor.”

“Legislation was duly passed to facilitate this public good of home ownership, and Lo!, many empty purses became home owners, or so they thought. But they forgot the fine print: ‘If you do not keep up payments, your home may be at risk’— yes, your HOME—not something that is an optional extra, but a basic necessity (the bottom step on Maslow’s hierarchy: shelter).”

“But, this did not stop the fat wallets from dreaming up ever more clever ways of lending ever more money to ever-more-empty purses.”

“Which reminds me of a discussion I had many years ago with a businessman who wanted to increase his borrowing from the bank. As he explained to me, the value of his assets would increase with inflation so why not borrow 100 percent now that would become 90 percent, then 80 percent and so on of the value in the future, and then he would be able to repay his loan. But, Ms. No asked him another question. ‘How will you make the monthly payments?’ ‘Oh, don’t worry about that,’ he said. ‘You’ll lend me the money to do that!’”

“Well, no surprise, he did not get his loan.”

“In the meantime, however, remember: when the world was a calmer place, people, both fat wallets and empty purses, used to look upon houses as homes, places to live in. They either borrowed money to buy their homes, or rented their homes. Our continental European cousins didn’t forget this, which may be one reason why the real estate market has not been so hot for many of them. And, nor have they made a lot of ‘pretend money.’ But, most importantly, their homes have remained their castles and they have not suffered the same level of heat from financial fires rampaging near those homes.”




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136 Comments »

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 12:53:36

My lawyer thinks he can get Miami out of the big house in just 3 years…
———————————————————————–

“The Manhattan residential real estate market cooled in the third quarter. In addition to falling prices, properties are also sitting on the market longer these days. Despite the economic uncertainty, real estate advisors say the city is well-positioned for the changes. The city has less than eight months of inventory, compared to locations such as Miami, which have as much as five years of inventory on hand.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-03 17:31:31

“‘New York is not going to see a huge drop in prices, it just doesn’t happen like that here,’ said Pamela Liebman, CEO of the Corcoran Group.”

CLICK!

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:38:43

Ben, wake up. Get a Bit Bucket up there. The entire system is melting down and you don’t have a Saturday Bit Bucket up yet?

 
 
Comment by knight
2008-10-03 21:26:59

I have watched a lot of the comments on this site. To pretend that NY manhttan real estate values will not be down at lest 30% is a joke. NY will loose at least 500k jobs at year end. Let’s recall- BS-BK, LB, BK, Commercial Banks-struggling, Non-Commercial Finance-Dead, Hedge Funds, Fighting massive redemptions
What movie are you guys watching? Clueless or Sideways.

Comment by Leighsong
2008-10-04 04:32:13

Hello Knight,

Sometimes communication does not translate well on the internet.

Ah, NY will lose more than 500K jobs, baybee.

Perhaps reading the link may help?

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081003/FREE/810029964/1072

Er…

Sometimes it’s difficult to spot sarcasm (reading between the lines)?

My heart goes out to ya if you’re in NYC - hecks, it’s different everywhere!

(Read between the lines).

Leigh ;)

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:23:43

Who the hell are you and who the hell has been saying on this blog that Manhattan won’t go down? Are you sure you aren’t mistaking this for an AA blog? The only thing clueless on this blog is you.

 
 
 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-03 12:54:30

You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
- Kenny Rogers

Comment by IE Fencesitter
2008-10-03 13:59:02

And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.
-Kenny Rogers

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-10-03 13:06:36

“In the meantime, however, remember: when the world was a calmer place, people, both fat wallets and empty purses, used to look upon houses as homes, places to live in. They either borrowed money to buy their homes, or rented their homes. Our continental European cousins didn’t forget this, which may be one reason why the real estate market has not been so hot for many of them. And, nor have they made a lot of ‘pretend money.’ But, most importantly, their homes have remained their castles and they have not suffered the same level of heat from financial fires rampaging near those homes.”

This is true - if you ignore England, Spain, Scandinavia, Italy, most of France and all of Eastern Europe…

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-03 13:40:56

You forgot Ireland and the Netherlands.

Comment by SV_Renter
2008-10-03 16:12:46

“Continental” doesn’t include England and Ireland.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-04 02:52:53

that is true, but Netherlands probably has the worst housing bubble of them all. In my dull city I would have severe trouble finding a home that is up less than 500% since the start of the bubble in the early nineties. With just 500% appreciation you can count on it that something is very wrong with the property. More attractive cities and good areas in cities like Amsterdam have appreciated 1500-2000%. I think that compares to the worst hotspots in CA, but it applies to the whole country!

I just watched a documentary on TV about foreclosures in Georgia (USSA, not the one near USSR). The prices sound totally unreal to me, even at the height of the bubble prices for nice homes were at least 2-3 times lower than over here, and now they are probably 5-10x lower.

I’m sure the amount of ‘pretend money’ in Europe is FAR higher than in the US.

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Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-03 13:09:15

Bubbletiers will like this one from NY.

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/waiting-for-schadenfreude/

At least those of you living elsewhere didn’t have to share the pavement with these guys.

“These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,” he said. “And now they’re earning millions and millions – in bonuses alone.”

However:

“Those of us who felt, well, like losers, are feeling like even bigger losers, as we shove our unopened 401K or (if we’re double-loser freelancers) SEP-IRA statements into bottom desk drawers and wait for a cathartic burst of schadenfreude that simply refuses to come.”

“Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats — the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries — are taking us down with them.”

 
Comment by Insurance Guy
2008-10-03 13:12:03

Its like that movie “Poltergeist” but I am not sure if I am supposed to go into the light or stay away from the light.

I do know the Brits went into the housing bubble more than even California. The Spaniards did also and who will bail them out?

The wealth of the world has been wasted in this stupid bubble that everyone could see except those making money off of it.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 14:06:36

Spanish A.R.M.ada

Comment by VicthebrickV
2008-10-03 17:35:57

That is funny.

 
Comment by implosion
2008-10-04 00:04:22

Remember that (dumbf*ck) Spanish gov’t official who was adamant there was no housing bubble in Spain?

 
 
 
Comment by dc to va and waiting
2008-10-03 13:13:35

Thanks for the Georgia Article: Georgia’s greed aided meltdown
Perdue, Assembly gutted predatory lending bill. Good opinion piece. I Wonder where those smart guys are at this point that was jeering. And, to think, they won’t accept responsibility for their actions and decide to blame CRA. Pitiful.

Comment by Wickedheart
2008-10-03 18:08:45

Well, it wouldn’t have matter anyway. The Bush administration sued every state that tried to enact anti predatory lending laws.

 
 
Comment by need 2 leave ca
2008-10-03 13:20:48

Mr. Mozillo:

Now that CONgress has passed the bailout, I want my share. Please cancel my mortgage and send me my house title. You will get your money back from my increased taxes to pay for your misdeeds and others like you and CONgress. My address is XXXXX.

Sincerely,

A disgruntled current on mortgage holder.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-03 13:21:00

‘New York is not going to see a huge drop in prices, it just doesn’t happen like that here,’ said Pamela Liebman, CEO of the Corcoran Group.

Message from The City Of Big Shoulders to The City With The Overinflated Head:

Surprise.

Oh, you thought you were different? You ain’t different.

(Remember back in the ’70s and ’80s, when Manhattan was dirty and interesting and perhaps a little dangerous? I do. See? Sometimes there’s upside in the downside.)

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 14:04:19

“(Remember back in the ’70s and ’80s, when Manhattan was dirty and interesting and perhaps a little dangerous? I do. See? Sometimes there’s upside in the downside.)”

I do, too. Fantastic. Now it’s a sterile place full of financial mobsters and a Nanny State Napoleon.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-03 14:33:14

Yeah, I’ve seen references to people having bought lofts etc. facing Central Park during the dark hours of the 70’s for 30-40k. Sure it’s easy NOW to say; “Imagine if only you held it this long!?”

Easier said than done when your car has been broken into twice this week and your wife won’t get in the elevator unless you accompany her.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-03 16:30:58

Remembering when a brownstone walkup on the upperwestside went for $200k. in late 70s. Was trying to get friends to go into buying one with me. I knew then it was a good time to buy, but that was then.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-04 03:00:41

same story in Europe:

in my student time (eighties) I looked into buying a home in Amsterdam together with four other students, and plenty room for some more (one student had parents with money, we could pay rent). Not so good neighborhood but close to the university. The cost was something like 125.000 guilders for a big historic merchant home, about 55K euro. We couldn’t close the deal because rates were very high then and it would be too risky financially.

These homes now sell for 2-3 million euros, after converting them into big apartments (with some improvements, of course but nothing really special). That’s a 4500% price increase in nearly 30 years.

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Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 13:21:53

I’d like to damn the Senate, the House of Representatives, Henry Paulson and the Bush administration for committing, aiding and abetting acts of fraud and treason on the American public. May their own personal agonies exceed a hundredfold that of their constituents in the coming decades.

Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-03 13:52:15

At least we don’t have to listen to all the Pollyanna happy talk anymore. They’ve out-doomed us all. Crazy tin-foil hatters and kooks, they are.

 
Comment by parrish dave
2008-10-03 13:52:53

I’m with you Palmetto, and may the fleas of a thousand camels infest their armpits !!

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 13:58:03

Hey, Dave! I am so completely enraged I’m choking on it at the moment. But on a lighter note, how’s it going in your new digs?

Comment by parrish dave
2008-10-03 14:06:18

It’s going very well, thanks. We are enjoying the extra space and like being closer to civilization. Plus we feel secure (at least for now - until the mobs with pitchforks break through the gate - LOL). I see Riverbend is really sliding - they’re trying to sell one house for $199,000 that was originally almost $700k, and another one for $149k that was bought for $450k. That place is an absolute disaster now and we are thrilled to be gone. You still in Apollo ?

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Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 14:38:09

Yes, still in Apollo, but actively looking. It’s getting pretty creepy around here, as evidenced by the gang rape at Dock’s. The bangers are restless.

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-10-03 15:58:35

“It’s getting pretty creepy around here”

Yes, when I first caught on to the bubble in ‘05 and found y’all here in ‘06, I was worried that all of this would unwind too far. It took me until about ‘07 to convince my wife we did the right thing; now it looks a little unwindish in Pinellas.

There was a calm period over the summer, but the insanity is back. We were looking at leaving next summer or the following summer, but we have agitated our plans and started preparing to move, hopefully, this winter or spring.

We were just talking about all of the death we see on a regular basis in Pinellas as we drove by a crime scene today. It’s the whole frog/boiling water analogy… the heat slowly turned up and we feel like we’re in the middle of hot water now.

The only good news is that I unloaded on a bunch of realtors, face-to-face, before we halted our 4-brick-walls-and-a-roof search.

If you want to have fun, walk araound an open house for five minutes, and cold heartedly toss 60% off at the realtor. When they say that’s too low, interrupt them and demand, “what offers have been made by qualified buyers in the last 60 days?” When they give you silence and the deer look, just calmly say, “well, you better accept those offers then” and walk right out! It really does feel good.

 
Comment by implosion
2008-10-04 00:20:32

It does Muggy, it does. I’ve been watching a lot of income property listings expire. I’ve seen a bunch of listings that go pending seem to fall out and come back active. These guys are still at the 10x+ yearly GRM.

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-03 14:02:20

LOL!

 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-03 16:36:22

May their golf handicaps handicap them.
May their sailboats always list to only one side, forever making them go in a circle.
May they find their socks don’t match, ever.
May they always have a irritating hangnail.
May they always find a hair in their salad/dinner.
May they always find their bottle of wine a little off.
May they find that their taste buds don’t work any more, or that their smeller is off, always.
May they see double.
May they always get spaghetti on their white shirts during business hrs and before an important mtg.
May their undies always bunch up, and their socks fall everyday/always.
May they always have a blemish right in the middle of their faces.

Stop me, cause I feel like going on more…

 
 
Comment by JohnF
2008-10-03 15:08:00

In case you want to know who to vote against (or re-elect) this November, here are the Yeas and Nays for the bailout bill in the House:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll681.xml

Comment by Central Valley Guy
2008-10-03 15:32:56

Somebody needs to create a “Vote-these-F’ers-out” Web site.

Comment by adge
2008-10-03 22:02:15

Won’t help. Whoever replaces them in political office will be equally as bad.

You only have 1 vote in the national election, but you have 50,000 economic votes every year with your $50,000 salary. If people start casting these economic votes rather than ignorantly consuming huge quantities of junk, there will be change. Real change.

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Comment by Wizard of Oz
2008-10-03 15:46:14

Interesting how the list doesn’t indicate, D or R.
I called my Congressman’s office, Passed on my thanks for voting NO. Advised I’d be voting for R.Paul.
Making a statement at least.

Comment by JohnF
2008-10-03 16:30:47

Democrats are normal Times Roman font, Republicans are in italics…..

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Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-10-03 15:46:36

Is there is list of the SOBs who changed their vote from No to Yes?

Comment by JohnF
2008-10-03 16:33:28

Here is the list for the original House vote on Monday (when the bill failed):

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

…again Democrats are normal Times Roman font, Republicans are in italics…..

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Comment by JohnF
2008-10-03 18:34:50

Here is the original House vote (the one that didn’t pass on Monday), the title is strange, but it is the right one:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

Democrats are normal Times Roman font, Republicans are in italics…..

Just compare “roll674″ with “roll681″ (link is above)….

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Comment by LA Wallflower
2008-10-03 16:26:07

My rep (Watson, CA-33, d) changed to Yes. I will be calling her office on Monday to grill whoever answers the phone as to why.

Comment by pos
2008-10-03 16:40:32

Your rep (Watson) is screwed. She first pissed off 30% of the public by voting NO, then she pissed off another 50% by voting YES. There is only 20% of the public that is not pissed off with her voting.

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Comment by Mole Man
2008-10-03 18:34:17

I would include a link, but there are so many I can’t choose which. Check the news. Anyway, the Governator may be forced to ask for a $7 billion dollar loan just to keep California running. The credit crunch is starting to become an issue for business, but it seems state governments are hitting the wall hardest first.

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Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-10-03 19:31:48

Wilbur Ross commented this pm on gov’t.s having to cut jobs in the near future, as another effect of the housing bust.

 
Comment by implosion
2008-10-04 00:27:27

I’m waiting for CA to borrow from CalPers.

 
Comment by CA renter
2008-10-04 05:59:17

CalPers has its own troubles. This is the elephant in the room — huge pension funds that have been getting less than their required returns (~7-9%, IIRC) in order to stay afloat in the long-term. They are eyeball-deep in all the bad paper.

 
Comment by jerry from richardson
2008-10-04 09:36:55

That’s why no government or corporation can take care of you. You better depend on yourself. SS will collapse. The european pension system will collapse. Just think about it. Most people don’t start making the real money until age 25 or so. Then they retire at 60 and die at 80. You have 35 years to contribute into the system and another 45 years of sucking off it.

 
 
 
Comment by Skroodle
2008-10-03 17:10:08

I was surprised to see Young (R-Alaska) vote no. Alaskan fisherman ended up with $268 million in the bill.

 
Comment by Chip
2008-10-03 21:23:35

Personally, I think it is time to throw out the baby with the bath water. Vote against every single incumbent. How can we be worse off? 100% of the economic ills in this country today could have been prevented by a congress and administration willing to rein in the Fed, Fannie/Freddie, etc. Get rid of all of ‘em.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-04 05:20:47

The count added up to 434. Where’s the last one? They better be dead. Hiding under the desk is not acceptible.

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Comment by hoz
2008-10-03 16:03:05

Palmetto,

You are to smart to think this bill would not pass. Mr. Buffett invest 8B and then says we are about to go over a precipice. Come on. I was stunned that there were individuals that had cogent arguments on voting no.

The passage changes nothing. Nobodys taxes were raised. The dollar is doing OK. Bonds are just a tad weaker.

The first moneys won’t be spent until the government sells the treasuries.

This bill was the “Full Employment Act for Fired and Laid off Wall Street Executives”. Who do you think is going to be pilfering this fund? I would like to manage it! At the end of 2 years my sons and daughters should be the wealthiest people in the world. (Never take money for yourself = jail; take for somebody else = keep the money)

Better than a golf membership at Augusta National.

By the time this is done, the Congress will spend $5T on the Rescue. Japan’s Central Bank spent 100T yen in the ’90s hiding their banks lies. With inflation and a bigger bubble we should top that in three months.

Its only paper and blips.

 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-10-04 05:55:49

gonna give barney frank, dodd and raines a pass ?

Comment by jerry from richardson
2008-10-04 09:41:18

Sure, why not?

 
 
 
Comment by frankie
2008-10-03 13:22:09

Is there nothing new under the Sun. From the Old Baily

Benjamin King, Deception > fraud, 27th February 1723.

Edmund Cheesebrook depos’d, That he ask’d him if he would transfer South Sea Stock; to which he reply’d, How could he do that, having none in, nor was he acquainted with Persons who had any, nor did he know the Manner of it: That King reply’d, he was acquainted with Clerks of the South Sea Company, could procure him Persons Names, and Places of Abode, that had Stock, and an Account of what Stock they had, and that as for the Manner of it, it was easily done, and with little Danger of being discover’d,

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org.uk/browse.jsp?id=t17230227-68&div=t17230227-68&terms=south%20sea#highlight

Comment by nhz
2008-10-04 03:10:17

the Dutch invented the stock market (including futures, short selling etc.) in the early 17th century. Shortly after, tulipmania raged and a large chunk of the Dutch population was playing along. One of the problems after the 1635 tulipbubble crash was that there were many huge shortsales that couldn’t be closed, because there was no product (no delivery of the special bulbs possible) and the market had vanished nearly overnight …

This haunted the economy for two years after the bubble crashed. Politics could find no acceptable compromise (ei.e. acceptable both for the rich and the poor). In the end two high level politicians were lynched by an angry mob …

 
 
Comment by walt
2008-10-03 13:28:20

“He said Bridgeport, especially multi-family homes are selling for nearly $100,000 less than they were, creating a lot of opportunity. He added, falling housing prices will plague Bridgeport and other urban centers for a while because there were so many homes bought with subprime mortgages that will be on the market. ”

Best advice when driving through Bridgeport, stay on I-95 and pray your car doesn’t break down. $100k less, there is nothing worth $100K in Bridgeport!

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 14:01:11

Shame about B’port. Once an example of a fine old New England industrial town, with great promise. Some great old houses there. As bad as B’port is, though, Hartford is a lot worse.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-03 18:19:48

“As bad as B’port is, though, Hartford is a lot worse.”

You’re not kidding. I’d never been to Connecticut until I flew into Hartford in order to meet my mother and sister. I’d always heard of the wealthy enclaves and such, and imagined a quiet, peaceful New England town. Boy did I have it all wrong. That place seemed downright dangerous, especially when I was out late that night, trying to find us some dinner. Apparently I missed out on the “nice” part of Connecticut.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:28:33

Ditto, here. I have my first experience in early 2005. I flew into Hartford then had to drive to our office in East Hartford. I couldn’t believe that it was such a dump. My illusions went down in flames.

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Comment by Silverback1011
2008-10-03 20:06:53

Oh goodness, I used to work in Hartford in the Social Security office ( federal building ) from 1976 -1978. What an armpit it was then. It must be 10x times worse now. The Athenaeum was cool to go to for lunch, though.

 
Comment by implosion
2008-10-04 00:35:28

Hartford was OK in the 60s when I a kid/teen. A lot of people bailed and it went downhill. Made the mistake of going into the “Italian” section in the 90s with my daughter. What a pos the area my grandparents lived in had become.

 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-03 15:27:32

At one time you’d have to worry about Manhattan at night. In B-port, you’ll get your head blown off in broad daylight.

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-10-04 05:57:47

lots a bamas on the loose

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 13:36:24

Don’t Be Afraid To Walk Away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9JqUvPDMA

 
Comment by satan
2008-10-03 13:46:20

Have the stupid woman thought about the future of the financial industry as it exists today. The sad reality is that, the events we are going through mark the begining of the end of a particular version of werstern “capitalism”. Read some asian news sources and blogs to see what the rest of the world thinks of the kind of “capitalism” that was run from london and new york. Now they know the west has no real power behind the facade. Reminds me of the professor in the wizard of oz- pay no attention to the man behind the screen.

‘New York is not going to see a huge drop in prices, it just doesn’t happen like that here,’ said Pamela Liebman, CEO of the Corcoran Group.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-03 15:30:01

“The sad reality is that, the events we are going through mark the begining of the end of a particular version of werstern “capitalism”. ”

And it can’t happen soon enough. I’m hoping our long 27 year national nightmare corporate capitalism/fascism is over.

Comment by satan
2008-10-03 16:58:23

The “reagan revolution” is dead!

Comment by bluprint
2008-10-03 18:59:55

This is a lot bigger than Reagan. This started when certain bankers were given a monopoly on our entire monetary system.

And it ain’t nowhere near over. The subterfuge continues.

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Comment by SMF
2008-10-03 13:52:01

“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

Ah, yeah, right, keep those prices elevated!!

Moron…

…that was (and is) the big problem. Houses got way too expensive for most.

The way out is to get the prices lower, and then people can have a little extra cash to spend on other necessities.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-03 14:41:50

“With the housing industry at the core of nation’s financial woes”

SMF, damn skippy. We keep losing sight of that. As a homeowner you can either scrape and scrimp to make your I/O payment until your finances are at the brink and THEN…. do a monster cash-out re-fi and have a spending orgy…

Or, purchase a home after a substantial price correction and have PLENTY of disposable income every-damn-payday! ( It really is that simple )

We need to end the “cycle of dependency”.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-03 16:44:40

Era of dependency.
See that is what I don’t get, the MSM and politicians alike keep talking about businesses not being able to get credit in order to keep their businesses afloat, get more product etc, when…
didn’t the US small biz owner usually make their biz work with CASH?

Over and over again, it is all about credit.
What the hell is the matter with paying cash?

Clerk yesterday said, are you using that credit card. I didn’t respond, cause it was debit, and I what I had to spend, not more. Let them continue to be deluded(sp) about credit. But it is making me NUTS.

Comment by Binko
2008-10-03 20:38:35

The entire economy from top to bottom now runs on credit. The system has been warped by easy credit and low interest rates that bear no relationship to the underlying risk. This is great for the financial industry because, once they get everybody to do everything on credit, they reap scads of profits.

It’s great, that is, until it all falls apart (like now). But, no matter, the public will cover their losses. All the financial industry wants now is get back to business as usual, lending everybody money all the time and making tons of profits. And the politicians support this because they get millions in campaign contributions from the financial industry, use them to buy tv commercials, and get re-elected.

The sorry truth is our entire financial-political establishment is little better than the mafia. They suck money from us and offer us “protection” from dangers that they themselves create.

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Comment by CA renter
2008-10-04 06:01:45

Spot-on, binko!!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by IE Fencesitter
2008-10-03 13:55:11

“Once you dig into it, you realize the credit crisis has spread far beyond the mortgage sector,”….

So true. I was next in line at Sear’s yesterday when the cashier asked the guy in front of me if he wanted to save 10% by opening a credit card? 5 minutes later he was a proud new debtor. The cashier then bragged to her fellow employee how big her bonus is going to be because “I signed up 109 people for credit cards today already (giggle, giggle).”

Why pay cash when you don’t have to? Or, more accurately, when you don’t HAVE ANY.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-03 14:10:52

The hyper-consumers are kaput. The retail model, as we have come to know it, absolutely depends on ever increasing sales or it implodes. Much carnage is yet to come.

The hyper-consumer retail economy will glide like a F-4 Phantom (Lead Sled) once the credit cards burn out.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-10-03 14:51:09

There was a Citibank ad about a year ago where there was a big fast food line running like a well-oiled machine, everyone paying with their credit cards, until the schlub with cash comes along and the whole thing breaks down. I thought at the time, a very apt analogy for the whole system, except in the case of the ad, the guy paying cash was the bad guy.

Comment by patient renter
2008-10-03 15:46:45

They still have newer versions of those commercials (except instead of cash, it’s a check)

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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-04 06:11:45

We actually HAD to use checks or cash after the hurricane in Houston because with the electricity and phones off, the few merchants open couldn’t do credit card transactions. (”Checkbook? Which one? I thought YOU evacuated the checkbook??”)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 13:58:52

Hellwhole…

“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-03 18:17:59

I have the perfect answer to the problem. Just drop the price of all homes so that the median-priced home sells for three times the median area income, and the slide in home prices will stop immediately.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-04 06:33:43

Or stop digging straight down, Robert. How about starting to bulldoze a ramp, in order to get out of the hole? Oh yeah, and stop that government plan to fill the hole with water.

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2008-10-04 08:48:13

I had the same thought myself the other day.

Then, I stopped thinking it, because it made too much sense.

 
 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-10-03 14:01:44

Anyone heard from Greenspan lately?

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 14:41:27

ROTFLMAO! Greenspan is getting ready to join Ken Lay in the place where all great fraudsters go to meet their maker.

What a completely disgusting, decrepit old bag. Greenspan and Kissinger, two of the most evil men on the planet.

Comment by Nozferatu
2008-10-03 23:53:30

Strange…so many of these men of power who create so much agony for so many are tied to Israel…amazing isn’t it.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-04 03:14:13

in Netherlands such a remark on internet forum could result in a visit from the police the next day, or maybe a huge damage claim by certain organisations. How’s that in the good old USSA, are they loosing their influence?

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Comment by Nozferatu
2008-10-04 10:43:12

Quite sad if it’s like that in the Netherlands…I guess that country has really lost it and is down on its knees…exactly where they want them.

In this country it’s different…they just call you a lunatic, racist, anti-semitic and anything else they can demonize you with….quite sad too really. But like what AIPAC does to members of congress all the time.

Someone has to have the balls to say it….and not be a blind supporter like Bill Maher.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-03 14:44:52

Al’s on a secluded beach with Tanman Mozilo drinkin’ daquiris and watchin’ sunsets — he’s been meaning to send us a nice postcard, ‘Merica, but he’s been on a bender for a few weeks now.

¡Salud!

 
Comment by Central Valley Guy
2008-10-03 15:35:05

I like to call him Ayn Rand Greenspan.

 
Comment by ann gogh
2008-10-03 16:06:39

Anyone heard from Hillary yet?
What would hillary do?

 
Comment by mikey
2008-10-03 19:59:09

I hope that they have already stuffed him and are using his dead carcass as a police decoy for wayward republicans at the Minneaplois Airport :)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-03 21:41:59

Is he on the list to become an economic adviser to President McCain?

 
 
Comment by Heath Turner
2008-10-03 14:04:32

“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

What he really means. ” We are not making the kind of money we are entitled to. It does not matter if the buyers can afford the homes, it is about extracting as much profit as possible out of each crap shack we build!”

Robert Toll is a candidate for idiot of the year. CEO my a#$!! This moron and I do mean moron has no idea what he is talking about.

How about the order taker that wrote the article. Did he bother to ask the Toll House idiot if he would care to expand on that statement?

Robert Toll for idiot of the year!!!!!! He has my vote!

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-03 14:42:30

He’s taken a toll on many communities.

 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-10-03 14:54:58

The sad thing isn’t so much that there’s douchebags like Toll; it’s that they, and the Liarreahs, and the Greenspans, ad nauseum, all get away with all the crap they’re saying while all of the talking heads on the MSM just bobble away.

Comment by homepop
2008-10-03 15:32:03

Toll has been in the Reno news lately. It seems they built a house on soil that was not adequately compacted. The house is now slowly cracking and sinking. The error was established by an independent engineer. The poor family living in the house cannot get Toll to make it right even though the house warranty is still in effect. Toll’s response? They have asked a local court to impose a gag order so that local news stations cannot run anymore stories about this.

Toll has made millions of dollars in the Reno market…

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-03 15:39:10

homepop,

? We need to build more just like it!

I don’t understand why this man is even talking right now? Why would he? All eyes are on the Bailout he and others just like him created! Everybody is angry with their congressmen or Sarah Palin or AIG or Lower Manhattan in general.

Why say a freaking word?

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Comment by DebtInNation
2008-10-03 16:15:38

Modern-day robber barons.

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Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-03 18:26:37

Let me guess: a Somersett home? Those stucco sh!tboxes are so poorly built it’s a wonder only one family is having that problem. That whole community is ground zero for the bubble.

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Comment by homepop
2008-10-04 12:10:13

I believe it was Somersett.

 
 
Comment by adge
2008-10-03 22:12:59

It is amazing how bad at homebuilding the national homebuilders actually are.

Sadly, a Toyota Corolla will outlast a Toll Brothers home.

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Comment by patient renter
2008-10-03 15:48:09

My vote is split, and would either go to Joe 6-pack or Joe-legislator - I can’t decide.

 
 
Comment by jbarm
2008-10-03 14:17:30

Saw a quote from Greenspan the other day. Said the bailout bill was a waste of time or a drop in the bucket — something like that.

700 Billion is nothing when you are talking notional values of 10’s of trillions.

jb

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-03 15:12:25

“700 billion is nothing when you are talking notional values of 10’s of trillions.”

Preach it, Brutha. After those tens of trillions disappear those folks with cash will reap an ample harvest.

Comment by climber
2008-10-03 15:19:59

Are you sure you have cash? All that money you think you have in the bank has been lent out to people to buy those overpriced houses. FDIC will only get you so far.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-03 15:44:13

Yep, I’m sure. Banks have only a small portion of my liquid assets.
Savings bonds have a chunk, treasury MM funds have a chunk, conventional MM funds have another chunk. I’m satisfied that I’m covered.

There are those on this blog that would disagree, which only gives me comfort.

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 16:22:15

King,

If you haven’t already, i’d especially advise you to watch the 12 part youtube about Argentina in 2001-2002, that I posted on the bits bucket…

 
 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-03 16:48:47

Our National Debt IS Over TEN trillion.

And that is withOut, the $850 Billion Bailout pkg for the wealthy.

Christmas is going to be rough this yr for lots of folks.

‘nother guy on money channel stating that this money would not do a dang thing for banks, they are already loaning money, or not.

 
 
 
Comment by Oklahoma Realtor
2008-10-03 14:58:49

This is the exact attitude that will get you the best deal on a home. If you go into the negotiation part of the deal dead set on buying the home no matter what you are liable to get taken advantage of. But if you have it set in your mind that you could walk away at any time, you will put the seller on edge and chances are you will get a lower price.

Comment by Jen Bones
2008-10-03 16:50:22

O.R.,

Thank you so much for your pro bono advice. My, you do seem knowledgeable and experienced. May I have an appointment with you to tour some of your firm’s preferred Choctaw or Nicoma park properties? Wait, let me consult my day-runner . . . would next Thursday, say three-ish, work for you? Good. No, no, don’t go out of your way. I’ll come over to your office. Look for the retard with the bone through her nose.

Luv,
Jen

Comment by bluprint
2008-10-04 08:59:47

lmfao

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-03 17:03:35

Do you have any decent non gang infested properties that are cash flow POSITIVE????

CASH FLOW POSITIVE IS FOR INVESTMENT…

CASH FLOW NEGATIVE IS FOR GREEDY SPECULATORS…ok?

———————————————
you will put the seller on edge and chances are you will get a lower price

 
Comment by Lost in Utah
2008-10-03 18:02:11

OK Realtor:

You are a brave soul indeed to post on a blog where the readers have read literally thousands of articles and accounts of used house salespeople scamming, lying, cheating, hustling, strong arming, abusing, deceiving, committing fraud on, swindling, betraying, misusing, and misleading their clients.

(And I’m sure I missed a few.)

Welcome to the HBB, it’s not to late to repent.

Maybe.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:33:21

“First, we must kill all the realtors.”
- William Shakespeare

 
 
Comment by LongIslandLost
2008-10-03 18:08:41

Is outright hostility towards sellers acceptable yet?

Wake me up when it is. I’ll make a few reasonable offers. I have saved for years so I can make a cash offer. I’m not just giving the money away for four decaying walls and a property tax liability.

Thanks.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2008-10-03 18:41:41

I’ll be kind, having spent a year in Green Country in NE Okla.
you have mistakenly arrived in the wrong room.
Turn around. Refresh your browser.
There. You will escape much tar and feathering…

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:34:39

The Douche Bag Convention called. They are missing one member, goes by the name of “Oklahoma Realtor”.

 
 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-10-03 15:29:25

So… the big bailout gets passed and Wall Street takes a dump. WTF?! I figured it would pee all over itself and it’d be the BIGGEST SINGLE DAY GAIN IN HISTORY! But… it was down more than 150 points. We just blew 700 billion dollars… for what now again?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-03 16:40:30

DWR calls drought ‘most significant in state’s history’

http://www.mtshastanews.com/news/x1424439446/DWR-calls-drought-most-significant-in-state-s-history
———————————————————————-

Houses aren’t worth jack without water…

Comment by Little Al
2008-10-04 05:20:41

I’ve heard several comments lately about global warming being a fraud. Mount Shasta should never be snow-free. These are earth-shattering events that very few are taking seriously.

 
Comment by Otis Wildflower
2008-10-04 06:37:47

I bet the water rates are lower than in Buffalo!!

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-03 17:59:57


“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

Did the crook say, “we have to stop the” RISE “in the home price?”

I thought not. Bunch of Crooks running public companies and want govt help when things go bad predictably.

Jas

Comment by implosion
2008-10-04 00:48:56

Jesus, I was heaving listening to Hovnanian on CNBC earlier this week.

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:36:00

Him and Ara Hovnanian should both be strung up by their balls, if they have any. They both have been running their mouths ceaselessly the past few years. All they spew is an endless stream of bullsh*t.

 
 
Comment by FP
2008-10-03 18:19:34

Looks like the credit markets want more. The 700B bailout is not enough for them. Like I said long time ago before this bailout. It’s like giving a crack addict his wish and will want more once he’s finish with his take. Good job Congress!

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-03 18:22:44

“‘The main point is, we’re not addressing the problem yet,’ said Robert Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers Inc.. ‘In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to stop the slide in the home price.”’

This guy needs to be put to sleep.

Comment by Mole Man
2008-10-03 19:15:59

In order to get out of the hole we’re in, we have to find something else to do. It’s over.

 
 
Comment by freedom5
2008-10-03 18:26:42

List of congress peoples votes with nice color coded map of states.

Congress Key Roll Call Votes

You can even search by zip code.

 
Comment by The Housing Wizard
2008-10-03 21:22:42

I am just beside myself today because of the passing of this corrupt Bill .
The insanity playing out like a strange movie that you never could believe could happen in reality ,not in America. Remember the people that voted against the Bill .

 
Comment by frankie
2008-10-04 01:29:35

Timber another bank goes pop

Netherlands to buy Fortis assets
Fortis bank HQ
The deal includes Fortis’ stake in ABN Amro.

The Netherlands will take full control of the Dutch operations of ailing European bank Fortis in a deal worth 16.8bn euros

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7651673.stm

 
Comment by Curt
2008-10-04 03:44:53

What ever happened to Bush’s “ownership society.” You don’t hear much about that anymore.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-04 06:37:13

Sure you do. Corporations own us. That was The Ownership Society.

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-04 07:05:57

Quit whining about someone else getting something for nothing and go get yours. Do a SWOT. Strength - Powder dry, pile of cash/gold, ahead of info curve. Weakness - no inside info, emotions. Opportunities - falling markets/prices all around. Threats - inflation/deflation, acting too soon, job/business loss.

Every single person I’ve spoken to over the last week is losing money in the markets and are upside down on their homes. Most of us are avoiding all that crap b/c we saw it coming. Get a grip, men/women. We’re ahead of the curve. Stay ahead. Look forward. The opportunities are abundant.

 
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