An Anti-Masterpiece Of Timing In California
The Mercury News reports from California. “John Gronley bought his dream home nine years ago for $625,000. Its paper value peaked at $1.6 million in 2005. Then, just like it did across the country, the money got funny — one foreclosure in the neighborhood, and asking prices for nearby homes were plummeting and pulling Gronley’s value down nearly a half-million bucks, with no end in sight. ‘It’s like play money, and I’m angry and disgusted by it,’ Gronley said last week. ‘There’s no accountability. And with all this creative financing, people who couldn’t afford to buy in the first place got in over their heads. Now they’re bringing everyone else down with them.”’
“People like Gronley’s foreclosed neighbor got mortgages through people such as a former loan agent at a small San Leandro brokerage.”
“‘We called them ‘foreclosure loans’ because they were doomed to fail,’ said the agent, who didn’t want to be identified because she’s still in the industry. ‘The lender expected the borrower to lose the house and the bank would resell it for its higher appreciated value. But the market dropped and they got caught with their pants down.’”
“She and her colleagues were taking mortgage applications from ‘Pak n Save clerks who could never afford a loan on a $400,000 house. At least once a month we’d all look at each other and say ‘When is this bubble going to burst?’ We all knew it wasn’t sustainable.”’
“Applications moved up the chain, pushed along by people like longtime Bay Area mortgage broker Jim Hitcher.”
“‘In 2003 and 2004, nobody thought home prices would ever fall,’ Hitcher said. ‘Everything was roaring along, appreciation was all around you, and rates were low. We wrote loans for a lot of people with no skin in the game. But you had the sellers pay closing costs, you did 100 percent financing, and the people qualified. It’s not up to me to decide whether someone should or shouldn’t buy a house. As long as they met the requirements, you’d move forward.”’
“As the lending machine cranked faster, the banking industry began packaging thousands of individual mortgages into a type of investment that could be sold to investors around the globe. ‘You’re not making loans’ anymore, said one former loan manager for a bank. ‘You’re making mortgage-backed securities.”’
“As Gonley watches his home equity evaporate while his neighbors’ homes sit on the market, unable to find buyers, he knows that any happy ending will be a long time coming. ‘We’ll stay,’ he said. ‘But I feel sorry for the people who have to sell.”’
The Sacramento Bee. “The provisions for struggling homeowners in the Wall Street rescue bill signed into law Friday are largely voluntary and not enough to curb foreclosures in regions such as Sacramento, some analysts say. Ianthia Turner of Lincoln, owes $75,000 more than her home is worth. Turner, who teaches at a beauty college, is current with her payments on her Lincoln home. But last month her husband lost his financial analyst job at an area bank. ‘We’re just holding our breath,’ she said.”
“Since January 2007, more than 21,000 area households have lost their homes to the banks, according to MDA DataQuick. In July, according to DataQuick, just 22 percent of borrowers who default – falling two or three payments behind – were able to save themselves from foreclosure.”
“Pam Canada, executive director of Sacramento’s NeighborWorks HomeOwnership Center, fears Friday’s rescue might now make banks less likely to help borrowers. If lenders can, ‘in one fell swoop, get rid of a couple hundred deals rather than negotiating each one, I’m afraid that could make it easier for them, again leaving the homeowner with no rescue,’ she said.”
The North County Times. “Three of four Republicans in the region’s congressional delegation on Friday voted against the revised economic bailout plan, standing by votes they took earlier in the week. The region’s two Democrats split their votes on the new measure.”
“U.S. Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Solana Beach, said the bill was ‘loaded up with egregious pork-barrel spending.l ‘It is absolutely mind-boggling that people in Washington who claim to care about stabilizing our financial markets believe the best way to do that is to load up an already bad proposal,’ he said.
“‘There is no way you can tell me that providing $148 million for wool fabric producers, $128 million for auto racing tracks or $192 million for Puerto Rican and Virgin Island rum producers is responsible action to address our economic crisis,’ he said.”
“U.S. Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Vista, a leading critic of the original measure, said the Senate version approved Wednesday was worse than the original. ‘This is the bailout to nowhere,’ he said in a telephone interview. ‘This does not fix the underlying problems for loans and liquidity in the markets.’”
“Federal regulators, the Bush administration and congressional leaders have failed the country, said Issa, whose district includes North County and portions of Southwest Riverside County. ‘With a manufactured sense of urgency, they spread panic through the markets, shattered Americans’ confidence in the banking system and ignored the American people.’”
The Contra Costa Times. “Likening the push for Friday’s bailout bill to that which preceded Congress’ authorization of the Iraq war, Rep. Pete Stark was the only Bay Area House member to vote against the revised Wall Street rescue bill Friday. ‘It’s the same pressure we had when we voted for the Iraq war, this constant threat of disaster if you didn’t vote the way the administration suggested, and that’s what concerns me,’ Stark said.”
“And telling people they’ll not be able to get cash out of their ATM is ‘patently rubbish,’ he said, a scare tactic.”
The Daily Pilot. “In the 46th Congressional District, it was the Republican incumbent who slammed the bill and his Democratic Challenger who reluctantly supported it. U.S. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, who voted against the package in both its original and final forms, released a statement excoriating its passage and saying the bill had been railroaded through Congress.”
“Rohrabacher’s Democratic challenger, Huntington Beach Mayor Debbie Cook, had been skeptical of some of the features of the proposed bailout and said she was further angered by some of the additions to it in the Senate. But she ultimately said she would have reluctantly voted yes if she were in Congress.”
“Cook said, a provision added to the bill in the Senate that cut taxes on children’s archery supplies enraged her nearly enough to change her mind. ‘It made me angry that they would mix somebody’s bow and arrow business into this huge crisis that we face,’ Cook said.”
The Gilroy Dispatch. “Just three months into the fiscal year and the city’s $325,000 loan program for first-time home buyers is broke. A dozen buyers have taken advantage of the city’s deferred loan program as market rate homes continue to decline in price. ‘What appears to be happening is because market prices have gone down so much, the subsidy that the city offers is now enough for people to be able to afford those houses. In the past, that subsidy was not high enough to buy most houses on market, so buyers had to come up with other sources of assistance,’ said Housing and Community Development Grants Coordinator Marilyn Roaf.”
“Only four people borrowed from the city last year, and according to the program’s guidelines, the home sales price cannot not exceed 120 percent of the monthly median home sales price for Gilroy, which was $425,000 in August. That means no homes more than $510,000.”
The Ventura County Star. “A housing developer could be required to pay a half-million dollar bond if it fails to comply with required improvements in the Meridian Hills residential development in Moorpark by the end of the year. William Lyon Homes originally had planned to build 265 homes but finished only 65 and sold the remaining 200 lots in the Ashford and Marquis housing developments to Resmark.”
“Meridian Hills resident Phil Frank said a neighbor of his recently tripped and fell over an unpaved curb, one of many things he said have been ignored. ‘None of the homeowners signed up to be part of this, and it should not be like this. With these delays, it has turned our neighborhood into a place with a lot of pent-up feelings of being shafted,’ said Frank.”
The Desert Sun. “A ‘bargain supply’ of existing homes in the Coachella Valley led to a 29.3 percent jump in sales in August, adding to a whopping 143 percent sales increase in Riverside/San Bernardino counties, the California Desert Association of REALTORS reported. ‘A large portion of those sales may be REO’s, short sales, and foreclosures in process. However, a sale is a sale and the buyers are back in the market taking advantage of the ‘bargain supply,’ said Greg Berkemer, executive VP of the California Desert Association of REALTORS.”
“‘When sales rise faster than prices fall, it could be an indication that recovery is underway and the window of opportunity is right now,’ he said.”
“The median price of an existing home in Coachella Valley in August was $221,940, down 41.3 percent from $377,920 in August 2007, according to the Desert MLS.”
“Indio’s median price per square foot was $114, down 43.7 percent from August 2007. Valleywide, the median price per square foot was $142. The city’s median price during August hit $197,000 — even more affordable than the valley’s $250,000 median price. The city’s median is down 6.1 percent from July and down 40.6 percent from last year.”
“Indio was one of five Coachella Valley ZIP codes whose sales were more than double what they were in August 2007. A big reason is the lower-priced entry-level market, driven by the rising number of foreclosures and short sales valleywide.”
“‘People who couldn’t afford these homes (before) are now in the market,’ said Berkemer.”
The Hesperia Star. “This year’s race for the Hesperia City Council is not Russ Blewett’s first political campaign, not by a long shot. Blewett served on the city council. In 1971, he was the youngest mayor in America. ‘I got into it because I have a passion for problem-solving,’ he said. ‘The politics of it are a necessary evil and sometimes it gets in the way.’”
“His lone development in the High Desert was an anti-masterpiece of timing: Blewett built a housing tract in Adelanto just in time for the closing of George Air Force Base.”
“He also has a prescription for the city’s ghost town’s worth of foreclosed homes. ‘Right now, there’s 1,000 [foreclosed] homes and there’s probably going to be another 1,000. We need to get those cleaned up and in the hands of owners, not renters,’ he said. ‘Nothing good is going to happen in this economy, for anyone, until we’ve solved this foreclosure problem.’”
“Blewett would have the city get into the business of second mortgages for buyers, paying for 15 percent of the cost of a home. The second mortgage wouldn’t have to be repaid, if the buyers (all of low-to-moderate income) live in their new house for 11 years. (Buyers would also have to take a class on building and maintaining good credit to qualify for the loans.)”
“‘What have you done? You’ve created a stable neighborhood,’ he said.”
The Graphic. “In Malibu, it is difficult to determine whether increasing housing costs are the result of the housing crash or the continuing prestige of coastal real estate. Although Malibu is fairing through the housing crisis with less damage than other markets, many students’ families were hurt by the housing slowdown. Dr. Robert Sexton, professor of economics, said the credit problems generated by the housing crisis has an affect on all sectors of the economy.”
“‘In retrospect, homeowners paid too much and lenders extended credit which tied them into homeowners’ losses,’ Sexton wrote in an e-mail. ‘We just are not as wealthy as we thought we were and this financial crisis has impacted everyone.’”
“Grant Harling, a junior at Seaver College, faced a similar loss when he and his family bought a condo in Malibu, which they hoped to resell in the future. However, they lost out on profit due to the housing slowdown.”
“‘We bought in Malibu hoping that the money made during the resale would help pay for school, but now all we can do is sell it back for the same price we bought it for,’ Harling said.”
The Red Bluff Daily News. “Bob Martin has been a local mortgage broker since 1991 at Summit Mortgage. He said he never issued teaser or sub-prime loans and saw the potential trouble being caused by those who did. ‘I’m one of the last mortgage brokers that are even out there anymore,’ Martin said.”
“The blame, according to Martin, can be distributed both to mortgage brokers looking to make a quick buck and homeowners who signed balloon mortgages. Martin said the terms of the mortgages were clearly outlined in the paperwork, but overconfidence in the housing market and the belief a refinancing opportunity would present itself later led people to sign anyway.”
“The overconfidence is nothing new in American history according to David Gallo, economics professor at California State University, Chico, who compared the housing craze to the agricultural boom of the 1920s and the dot-coms in the late 1990s. ‘Any banker with a brain who could have thought the housing market was going to go up indefinitely was just a fool,’ he said.”
“She and her colleagues were taking mortgage applications from ‘Pak n Save clerks who could never afford a loan on a $400,000 house. At least once a month we’d all look at each other and say ‘When is this bubble going to burst?’ We all knew it wasn’t sustainable.”’
I’m disappointed that Congress could have taken this opportunity to regulate mortgage brokers and real-estate agents out of business, yet they’ll have no culpability in this whole mess!
And there was no provision in the rape&handout bill passed yesterday to investigate fraud.
‘rape&handout’
Yeah, keep trying to scare people. Did your taxes go up? Are you going to buy some US treasury bonds anytime soon? Cuz those are the people paying for this stuff. You probably didn’t even pay for the highway to your town.
This country barely pays in the interest on the national debt. Every penny of this will be financed outside the country. Are you going to sell everything and pay up if the government defaults on this debt in the future? I don’t think so.
And where were your ‘rape’ metaphors when this country ran up the first $50 trillion? Too busy enjoying the infrastructure someone else paid for? What do you say when congress steals from social security every year so you don’t have to pay as you go?
You see, you are just as big a part of this now unsolvable problem of debt in the US. And if you aren’t trying to be a part of the solution, or getting your familes finances in order, then what are your trying to do?
Huff and puff about some drop in the bucket, but don’t expect to come on this blog and play the rape victim.
Yes. My taxes went up. My property taxes, for one thing, went up because of inflated house prices.
My mortgage is paid off (it was a 15-year mortgage) but when I was still paying it, I didn’t get any mortgage interest deduction because of AMT.
I have zero debt and a significant percentage of my money is in Federal and State bonds.
I have definitely not been part of the problem.
Also, I’ve been criticizing the Bubble since at least 2004. I even had a letter to the editor printed in the January 2005 Business Week saying how foolish it was to include bubbled home-equity in “household net worth” figures.
And my yearly Federal tax bill is well into 6 figures.
“And my yearly Federal tax bill is well into 6 figures.”
Booo effing hoooo! How about the alternative, like not being able to afford to make ends meet for your family? Of course, from what I understand, that’s not in your vocabulary short of attaching a test tube embryo to your “partners” bowel. You are one whiny SOB.
My apologies if I offended anyone in the non-hetero crowd. That was not my intention.
“Let me tell you something, sonny. When I was young we didn’t have all of this stuff like you do now….”
Okay, I won’t get that dramatic. I grew up in the 1970s. I was the youngest of many kids. We lived in a small house. We owned one car. We never took a big vacation while I was growing up. We did go to Iowa once. And do you know what? It wasn’t all that bad. This return to sanity, though painful, will do us a lot of good. Our priorities are so f–ed up right now.
If we can get housing prices, and people’s expectations, back to reasonable levels we may be able to allow people the choice to have one income families. There was a lot less luxury around in the 1970s but there was also a lot less stress. Except about the A-Bomb and the Soviet Union. You can’t win them all. My vote truly is for a return to a little bit simpler times.
I grew up in the 70’s as well. We rarely ate out. In fact, McDonalds was considered a luxury (thank god). We never once took a big family vacation. Going to the drive-in movies was expensive entertainment, and quite infrequent. I was extremely fortunate to learn how to ski, an opportunity many kids never had. I’m very appreciative of what I DID have.
Same here. But I was a California 60s child. I won’t mind an economic downturn to turn the big spending Trump wannabes to humble one car / one television / one house families.
The AMT cheated you out of your mortgage deduction? You poor thing.
mortgage interest IS still deductible under AMT.
real estate taxes and state taxes no, but mortgage interest yes.
Ben, I like your anger. You hit on something that my wife and I have faced up to. We ALL benefited from the Flipper Economy, whether we want to admit it or not. Our salaries are higher than they probably would have been without the Housing Mania. We had a higher standard of living than we would have without the housing mania. We were bull market geniuses, too, in some ways.
We did manage to put our finances in order. Even with me losing money in the stock market. I am no good at the stock market. I lack the patience. I have also come to grips with my pride. Admitting that you can lose is the first step to fixing something. I knew the stock market would go down. I had puts the past few years and several times I got hammered when the government announced a bailout or an emergency rate cut. Read this next part slowly. I admit that it was all my own fault. I was doing something I shouldn’t have done and I can’t get that money back. Too bad.
But we are okay, I hope. We benefited from the artificial economy. It was not my great genius that leaves us debt free and with a few bucks in the bank. Tonight we are going to Paris. I guess that is another benefit. We are grateful for what we have, and have been able to do. Now we have to face the new economy. We should be okay since we live fairly simply for a couple that lives in Manhattan. But don’t cry any tears for the CityBoy.
NYCityBoy-
If you read this before you leave for Paris: Have a safe and wonderful time. Eat the pizza, enjoy the archtetecture, the art, the culture, and the wonderful people.
If you can fit it in, the castle tour is amazing.
Those of us who grew up modestly, pinched ourselves that we got to see Paris. Not growing privledged is actually a good thing.
Air France (if that’s your carrier) had great “vittles”.
Thank you. I’m starting to get excited. We get picked up in less than two hours. We are flying Air India. That was the dominant carrier when I booked. We are staying in Versailles. I expect it to be great fun. I appreciate this stuff so much more since I did grow up with nothing. Even living in NYC is a very different experience for me than for many others.
NYCityBoy-
Air India to Paris - How Continental!
I hope they serve curry Indian food.
You guys take lots of pictures. France is amazing. You and the Mrs. enjoy.
We’ll all miss you.
‘We get picked up in less than two hours. ‘
What?! You AND Faster Pussycat gone? At the same TIME?
I can’t imagine what we’ll all do. Either set more bonfires or take more naps, I guess. This could be a hard time for us, but I guess I wish you and your wife a very good trip.
Speaking of OvertheTop living via the bubble, when you walked through airport terminals, it was mind boggling how many large groups of children/ or teens that were part of a touring type group. These children will never ever know what it is to earn something. As most of us know, we basically grew up in modest upbringings, no vacations, one night per wk/mo to eat out at the Sizzler/ A&W drivein, or all pile into car for drivein movies in our pjs and no snackfood at snackstand.Just the movie.
One tv, if that, and one car.
But those throngs of children/teens that for the past 7 yrs that were all over airport terminals…boggles the mind.
Some of us still didn’t “enjoy” the bubble as others did, post 9/11 big paycuts etc.
These days it comes down to people who feel their “lifestyle” is at risk vs. people who worry they’re headed for the poorhouse. A friend was recently telling me about how their Wall Street relatives, who sold their 10 Mil home in the Hamptons at the peak, were worried about their portfolio. Like I should care? They got to eat lots and lots of cake.
” Tonight we are going to Paris.”
Oh, fantastic. I am so incredibly jealous. If you have the chance, visit the Pompidou, even if you’re not interested in the art, it is the best walking around area.
http://www.cnac-gp.fr/
(And if you are into art, check out the Atelier Brancusi next door).
Just for educational purposes, can we compare our “Preparations for the Upcoming Fiasco” lists?
Mine:
-Get out of stocks/equities (for now)- Check (in June 07)
-Pay down debt (especially variable interest rate debt)-
Check (sorta….:)….)
-Buy no big ticket items, unless absolutely neccesary (so far, check)
-Stay away from buying a house (Check)
-Be prepared to relocate (possibly even overseas), if current employment goes down the tubes.
Anything else I’ve forgotten?
My oldest daughter is in retail, and is seeing what is happening to retail sales first hand…..she and her fiancee are both running the same plan. My two daughters in high school can’t get their heads around what is happening yet, but they are starting to see some of the things I’ve been warning them about.
The good news is, if they get an education in something useful (and don’t come out of school owing crazy amounts of money), by the time they get out of college, it might be a really good time to be entering the job market.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of people who became adults between 1985 and 2005 have never seen a bad nationwide recession. (IMO the late 80s one was mostly limited to the oil producing states, while the 90-91 recession was mainly the West Coast). Because they haven’t experienced it, they may be a tad too optimistic about their ability to get an equivalent (or better) job if they are laid off. Those of who got out of high school in the mid 70s got to see first hand a crappy economy, downsizing and no jobs, and crazy inflation for 6-7 years.
You can warn people about some things until you are blue in the face, but personal experience is an excellent teacher.
“My name is Professor Irrational Exuberance, and welcome to Nasty Recession 101″
Nearly everyone under 40 is going to get a very good education over the next half decade. Especially so the cohort I’m calling the Alt-A Bay Area Sequential Bubble Riders.
Or it could be a longer education, if we keep doing the “recovery” Japan-style.
Ben, I don’t know much about the world economy (and am appreciative for all I’ve learned on this blog), but won’t all of this runaway debt eventually cause hyperinflation for us and a lot of social unrest? Just because we’re not paying as we go, still seems we’re gonna reap a lot of consequences.
I think that assumes that there’s any intention of paying that debt off, rather than ‘writing’ it off. Also, it depends on whose debt we’re talking about.. Resolving $11T in federal debt is inflationary, resolving the $50T+ in derivatives most likely won’t be, since those aren’t (yet) backed by FF&C of the US.
So, you have a lot of fake money (upon which many jobs and sales depend) evaporating, which is deflationary dollar destruction. Folks will sell assets to feed that monster for only so long before declaring bankrupcy, which wipes out the remaining fake money.
It’s hard to tell which effect predominates, and impossible to predict since the FedGov can change the rules at any time they like, but if you see US dollar strengthening against Euro, Oil, other commodities, it may not be so much that those ‘bubbles’ have burst, but that there’s enough dollar destruction going on to raise its relative value.
Or not.
That was the best explanation I’ve heard yet about the inflation/deflation question. So where are you putting your money, it seems like we have to know which way this is going because if you’re half cash half commodities, you’re going to lose no matter what happens.
LOL I still have a little bit of SKF, but I’m sure as soon as it goes up they’ll change the rules AGAIN..
All paper currencies eventually go away. And all empires crumble. Sure, there are consequences. But there are real rapes in this world, and some of them have been at the hands of our war machine. Remember the prison stuff? Or the girl whose family was killed to cover it up? So it’s hard for me to get all teary-eyed for these poor taxpayers.
Our government forces stuff on people all over the globe. How many countries do we have bases in? And who set up this global central banking system? Isn’t it interesting that the handful of countries that don’t have a central bank are all called terrorists and worse? And note that these same banks work together through international “organizations.” Now look at the global chaos these bubbles have caused. At some point, the people in this country have to own up to the system we tolerate and the worlds’ people suffer under.
I am insulted by your comments Ben. The truth is not to be tolerated. As a good patriot I am going to turn you in. I also agree with you 100%. We need to get our nose out of everybody else’s business and quit dictating how everybody else lives when we can’t even live decently ourselves. A more humble America would be a much better America. The neo-cons can go pound salt, or each other.
Hear Hear! I wish we would stop being the world’s Policeman. And I wish we would not forge military alliances with anyone. We could save $hundreds of billions of dollars. I am frigging angry at this nation’s foreign policy and military philosophy.
This war machine is a disgrace. We do need a strong defense, as per the Constitution, but only within the 50 states and its territories Guam and Puerto Rico.
I keep trying to encourage Libertarians to win political office by donating and voting, but people think it’s better to vote for an alternative socialist intead of a freedom alternative.
Amen!
“Our government forces stuff on people all over the globe. How many countries do we have bases in? And who set up this global central banking system? Isn’t it interesting that the handful of countries that don’t have a central bank are all called terrorists and worse? And note that these same banks work together through international “organizations.” Now look at the global chaos these bubbles have caused. At some point, the people in this country have to own up to the system we tolerate and the worlds’ people suffer under.”
Here’s an example:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JJ03Ad01.html
Wolfowitz up to more mischief?
WASHINGTON - Just 15 months after being forced to resign as president of the World Bank over a conflict of interest regarding his professional and personal relationship with his girlfriend, former deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz may be involved in another, far more geostrategic conflict of interest.
It involves his dual roles as chairman of the State Department’s International Security Advisory Board….
LOL! That’s a good one.
I agree with a “humble America”, but you guys who think isolationism is the answer certainly must have missed something in history class.
“you guys who think isolationism is the answer certainly must have missed something in history class.”
What’d we miss? Countries that mind their own business are much better off. We can be friendly, diplomatic, etc.
Nothing wrong with that. But no intervention unless directly threatened is a good policy. Besides, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to quarantine ourselves while we clean up our act.
Some would like us to think we have two choices; what they define as isolationism and having over 600 bases in over 100 countries. That’s a false choice.
This isn’t abstract. We have to borrow billions to keep this up; how does that make us stronger, safer, etc? The empire thing did in every country that tried it. I think we can do better than that.
I don’t think many people understand the vast network of military bases that we have around the world. There is no way to maintain our empire in the long term, we can either wind it down on our own timetable or can wait for it to crumble under its own weight.
“Some would like us to think we have two choices; what they define as isolationism and having over 600 bases in over 100 countries. That’s a false choice.”
Exactly. It’s “puker” talk. People puke the most astounding slogans and labels in response to various thoughts and comments. If you’re not a “globalist”, you’re an “isolationist”. Complete BS. Pulling out our bases AND our financial “aid” to countries would be a mercy to the planet and considered a friendly action by most. And it would go a long way toward paying off some of our obligations, which I think we should do.
I’ve said before that the theory is that members of Congress work for us. That’s the way it is supposed to be and if you had an employee, wouldn’t you want to check in on them at least once every couple of weeks? My rep and one of my Senators voted against this bill. I’m sure that has a lot to do with calls from folks like me. Oh, and I bothered to call and thank them afterwards for their vote. Common courtesy. You have to let people know when you think they’ve done right, too.
“I don’t think many people understand the vast network of military bases that we have around the world. There is no way to maintain our empire in the long term, we can either wind it down on our own timetable or can wait for it to crumble under its own weight.”
I don’t see the necessity of spending more than the rest of the world combined on “defense”. I expect our expansive military will crumble under its own weight in less than a decade. The defense industry and supporters will not change unless that change is forced on them.
“Wolfowitz up to more mischief?”
Wolfowitz is a world-class criminal sociopath!
No different than Barney Franks, Dodd,Schumer, or even her Hillaryness. They are all wh-res only looking out for themselves.
“Some would like us to think we have two choices; what they define as isolationism and having over 600 bases in over 100 countries. That’s a false choice.”
I think this is symptomatic of many issues. Either you are this or that, black or white. There can be no gray.
My favorite example is the abortion debate. If you are “pro-choice” and I disagree, what does that make me? A fascist?. If you are “pro-life” and I disagree, am I “pro-death”?
In fact, regarding abortion, like many other issues I suspect most of us fall somewhere in the shades of gray. Perhaps leaning to one side or the other, but rarely black or white.
—- on a different note in this thread ——-
“There is no way to maintain our empire in the long term, we can either wind it down on our own timetable or can wait for it to crumble under its own weight.
Reminds me of helicopters leaving Hanoi…
The costs of maintaining overseas military bases (which in some cases consist of basically a hangar at somebody else’s airport) is a fraction of total defense spending, which is itself a much smaller portion of the budget than entitlement spending. If anything’s going to blow the American government budget apart, it won’t be “empire,” it’ll be trying to keep grouchy old people happy.
Military spending as a fraction of government spending is lower than it has been for most of the country’s history. That’s not surprising, since in times past, maintaining the military was pretty much government’s only job.
Finally, keep in mind that isolationism imposes costs, too. There’s a reason people speak of a “pax romana” or “pax britannica.” Multipolar worlds can suffer from destructive military rivalries. The times when one nation had an acknowledged primacy over the channels of international commerce — which still, mostly, means the international shipping lanes — have been more peaceful and prosperous than when the ball was up for grabs.
“Empire,” if you want to call it that, can be expensive, but anarchy isn’t cheap, either.
Ben, some of us have voted libertarian all along, paid our taxes all along, and NO, it is NOT patriotic to pay MORE taxes voluntarily. It’s dumb when you can avoid taxes legally! What’s this “scare tactics” business you are giving Reuven? Are you siding with the bailout? Congress and the Executive branch have been part of the group putting America into the credit crisis. And you think this plan will work? Will it be entirely financed from the outside?
There was no mention in this bailout bill of people such as the Pack N Save folks buying houses way out of line of their incomes. Maybe the Marxists would call them victims. That part I agree with Reuven.
Any spending on the margin must be financed from outside this country. And the same taxpayers you refer to are also citizens and potential voters. We are the only ones who can change it and are therefore responsible for what we have in DC. Unfortunately, the people in this country allowed decades of very poor decisions to be made. To the point that now we can not possibly fulfill our obligations to our creditors or to the future retirees who are counting on Social Security and Medicare. We are now paying for our neglect and at the same time causing others to pay.
The time for making any real change to the current system is long past. When Greenspan and congress “saved” social security in the 80’s, and then that structure was perpetuated for 20+ years, was when we really went past the point of preventing what we find today. It’s hard for people in the US to admit, but we had our cake and ate it, and then borrowed a heck of a lot more.
I ask you to think of how we will be viewed in history. Allowing strawberry pickers to “buy” $700k houses. Reveling in the biggest asset bubble in the history of the world, and all the while, tolerating a Federal Reserve and government that insisted nothing was amiss. I doubt people in the future will accept that a supposed “free” people can escape culpability for the mess we find ourselves in. No, Reuven hasn’t been “raped.” He/she is another person who is at a serious point in financial history. And clearly understanding how we got here is the only way we can ever hope to prevent this from happening again.
We sit on the biggest bad debt problem ever, and borrowing even more is hardly the solution. I realize that many of the posters here weren’t in on this foolishness, but if you don’t like what you’ve got in Washington, do something about it. And it can’t be the same thing we’ve done for the past 40 years.
It’s utterly fascinating stuff, all these events unfolding, like a bad dream come true…
I blame a lot of what happened on the casino culture that we became, an “All-In” society.
We made heroes out of zeroes that played poker, and HELOC’ed on our homes, only to lose it over the green felt, a double-whammy.
Betting on a Full House (3x sfh & 2 condos) seemed like a good hand, once upon a time…
Not in on the bubble, but
volunteering as a ‘precinct cptn’.
And registering voters.
Having conversations with ppl
who still don’t ‘get it’ hoping they
too will soon start reading…anything
but Fix news and sitcoms.
What else?
Call senators/congress not only from my state,
but other states- telling them I might move and vote in their state, or will tell others to vote against or for them. Write letters to newspapers. But they never get printed. Not republican enough around here.
Do what, Ben? I don’t feel like sticking Paulson with a pitchfork tonight.
I think “rape&handout” is a good name for the bill. It will be paid for, eventually. You say it will be financed outside the country. Sure it will! But you make it sound like no one here will actually pay for it. When you get a loan to buy a car from a bank (for example), does that mean that the bank is paying for your car and there’s no cost to you? That’s pretty much what you are suggesting.
Sure it will! But you make it sound like no one here will actually pay for it.
Well, that’s the $64 question now isn’t it? What’s to prevent a broke-ass congress from repudiating that debt, it going to the 9 as sovereign wealth funds appeal the repudiation, and then a desperate and broke-ass electorate passing a constitutional amendment allowing repudiation of foreign-held debt?
Technically, no one ‘here’ will be paying for it, but we will have definitely left the kids and grandkids with the bill.
Perhaps the US will use Puerto Rico or Guam as a SPE and pass its debts onto them with accounting chicanery, then let those countries go bankrupt? What’s sauce for the capitalist goose is sauce for the socialist gander…
“We wrote loans for a lot of people with no skin in the game.”
Bingo.
“‘We called them ‘foreclosure loans’ because they were doomed to fail,’ said the agent, who didn’t want to be identified because she’s still in the industry. ‘The lender expected the borrower to lose the house and the bank would resell it for its higher appreciated value. But the market dropped and they got caught with their pants down.’”
Wow, I never thought of this angle. I always thought bankers were such a conservative,frugal,dot every i type of folk. Instead they were a bunch of Vegas high roller wannabes.
This theory doesn’t make any sense. If a bank forecloses on a home and nets out more than the mortgage(s) balance, they must return the “equity of redemption” to the foreclosed borrower. [That term by the way is the full legal name for what we loosely call "equity".] There’s no way a bank could get a true profit from a foreclosure on an appreciated house.
The bank can definitely profit on a foreclosure if the house will sell for more than the loan amount. The excess will not be returned to the borrower because it will all be eaten up in late fees, collection costs, foreclosure costs, auction costs, disposition costs, attorney fees, and more late fees on the late fees. There would never be enough left to return to the borrower. The bank won’t legally record a profit, and will likely be able to write off the losses on their taxes, but can make plenty of money on a foreclosure by milking it for fees.
Of course this only works when homes are appreciating and goes in reverse when the loan balance greatly exceeds the current market price of the house.
Bankers used to be conservative until they found out the government would bail them out if they got in trouble with bad loans.
Bankers used to be conservative until they found out…
that they could make more money selling mortgages than keeping them on their books. Wall street created the demand and bankers supplied everything wall street was willing to buy.
IMHO you’re rewriting history. Don’t think the government bailing them out figured into the bankers plans until Bear Sterns.
That’s not true. People have been singing the “too big to fail” refrain this entire time. They were most vocal about it when referring to the F-twins, but would throw it around relating to almost any large institution if pushed. I used to argue against it, saying that the F-twins were too big to bail, and they still are. I see no way of following through with any promise to pay up.
I have read plenty of statements by people in the position to know, published by the MSM, that all the major banks (in addition to F&F) have been banking on their cozy relationship with the Federal government for quite some time. I do not believe they ever would have gone this far were it not for the few, smaller bailouts in recent history, which set a precedent for today.
“The overconfidence is nothing new in American history according to David Gallo”
the big difference is that we now have rapid, global communications and banking systems, so that we can now experience manias on a global scale. it’s no coincidence that there is so much interest is behavioural economics at the moment. this will have a strong impact on legislation in the future, I believe.
“The provisions for struggling homeowners in the Wall Street rescue bill signed into law Friday are largely voluntary and not enough to curb foreclosures in regions such as Sacramento, some analysts say. Ianthia Turner of Lincoln, owes $75,000 more than her home is worth. Turner, who teaches at a beauty college, is current with her payments on her Lincoln home. But last month her husband lost his financial analyst job at an area bank. ‘We’re just holding our breath,’ she said.”
=======================================================
Dual duel meaning.
NYTimes ran an article showing how pressure to make homes available to “low income borrowers” pushed Fannie to the limit
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/business/05fannie.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Thanks,
Unfortunately I think 99% of folks will never understand or care about the deeper roots to this crisis, and focus on the populist straw-man agruments, ala Pelosi’s: “we need executive pay caps” or Palin’s “it’s caused by predator lending”
Funny how supposedly diametrically opposite folks like Obama and McCain both vote to bail out the big investment banks - surprise, surprise…
This couldn’t have happened if the banks (admittedly very sleazy) didn’t find a couple of million Americans who knowingly bought houses they couldn’t possibly afford.
The FBs already got SUBSTANTIAL tax breaks (like no tax on forgiven mortgage debt); we have bankruptcy laws to let them start with a clean slate; and primary loans were mostly “non-recourse.” They don’t need any more financial consideration in this bailout.
“They don’t need any more financial consideration in this bailout.”
Exactly.
They’re not really different. They both support a big corrupt government
…which supports a big corrupt Wall St.
To put to rest the canard of low income loans being “forced” on the lenders and causing this mess, you need to realize it was WALL ST. that lobbied for this, the idea being to keep the party going as long as possible because they knew what was coming, as the RE boom was the only thing the Bush admin could come up with to pull us out of the dot bomb recession, and being able to flip the properties themselves when the buyers defaulted and making their money, as was pointed out, with fees.
This assertion does not put the so called canard to rest as it is about the most ludicrous theory I’ve heard. A false RE boom, doomed to fall, to get out of another false boom that was doomed to fall? And this would have been done deliberately causing the current crisis?
Oh brother!
They did it to save the government.
But I thought it was the Republicans fault all along! And many people here are voting for a Democrat congress! What?
BIM, the world is not so black and white. Read a couple issues of Reason magazine, and you’ll discover that, shock of shock, many Dems ascribe to Libertarian values, especially went it comes to privacy issues and foreign policy. Economic issues are much more tricky. Libertarians seem to be opposed to most forms of taxation, while they enjoy the fruits of such taxation, such as reliable water, energy, transportation, judicial remedies, law enforcement and so forth. My feeling is if folks don’t want to pay to play, then they should buy their own Island.
Pete Stark is my hero. I wish more Democrats were like him.
Me too. Unfortunately my own rep (Tauscher) voted “yes” for this bill the first time as well as the second time. Then again, Tauscher is ex-Wall Street so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
I was hoping that having seen the proverbial “man behind the curtain”, she would have the guts to call this bill for what it is.
Majestic - idealism not dead yet.
I’ve always had good feelings for Pete Stark even though I usually disagree with his politics. I remember serving his wife an ice cream cone when he was first running for office over 30 years ago. She was sweet and was campaigning hard for him. I think he was a banker at the time. Same place I served an ice cream cone to Joe DiMaggio, and shook his hand.
Happily picturing the day when Ben’s California threads can quote newspapers like “Santa Monica Daily Press”.
The sad part of these bailout bills is that we could do more with that kind of money.
1. Nationalize commercial
banks, cover short-term corporate credit lines and guarantee all deposits for a few months while we sort this
mess out.(about 1 trillion ASAP)
2. Repair and upgrade our infrastructure (about 500 B / yr) for say 6 years.
However we as a country are too enthralled by investment bankers, corporate “mavericks”,nimbys, environmentalists, lawyers, corrupt contractors, labor unions.
I think we gave lost confidence in ourselves
The empire state building was built in about 20 months at the height of the depression.
Same for major projects like the Hoover dam and many others that still keep us going.
It took less than 27 months to build the first atomic bomb (from scratch).
And less than 9 years to put a man on the moon (and we had barely put men in space when the challenge was announced)..
What happened to us???
What happened? The 70s, that’s what happened.
Don’t get me started on this topic. The bailout could have been an infrastructure revision with enough money thrown at the banks to keep a sufficient quantity of them afloat. Instead… it was pissed away for one more luxury Christmas in NYC.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Here’s what else happened. http://www.gangsofamerica.com
THE definitive history of corporations beginning with guilds and how they evolved over the centuries and now OWN this country.
Free PDF download. Spin free until the last chapter.
Absolutely REQUIRED reading for all.
Now they’re saying that for the bailout to work, the prices of houses have to stop falling. Let me see if I understand the logic: The only way for the $700 billion taxpayer-funded bailout to work, is if the taxpayers buy houses at inflated prices they can’t afford. The logic of the whole thing is completely mind-boggling to me. There has to be something my wee-little mind is missing!
I fear that the success of the bail-out has been predicated all along on the proposition that more liquidity will lead to more home purchases and then to an upward recovery in prices.
I don’t think a downward recovery in RE prices was factored into the plan.
Now they’re saying that for the bailout to work, the prices of houses have to stop falling.
I think thats the only way the Government can get back the 700B of structured Mortgages it just signed up to buy. I think the bailout will work to bailout banks so they can lend money again and grow the money supply. Who they plan on lending to I have no Idea maybe each other to start ?
“The provisions for struggling homeowners in the Wall Street rescue bill signed into law Friday are largely voluntary and not enough to curb foreclosures in regions such as Sacramento, some analysts say.”
One possible future scenario:
1) W’s scare talk on national TV will scare off all buyers for the foreseeable future, driving home prices to a hard landing by late 2009.
2) Somehow a large share of the $700 bn in bailout monies will land in the hands of Megabank, Inc, who will snap up lots of vacant homes at fire sale prices once a bottom is reached. This will serve the duel purpose of setting a near-term price bottom, and also letting Wall Street banks steal more windfall profits at Main Street’s expense.
“As Gonley watches his home equity evaporate while his neighbors’ homes sit on the market, unable to find buyers, he knows that any happy ending will be a long time coming. ‘We’ll stay,’ he said. ‘But I feel sorry for the people who have to sell.”’
No Mr. Gonley you are feeling sorry for yourself for not having the brain power to sell a falling asset! Your greed got the best of you, but at least you have a place to live at 1999 pricing. You might start wondering what your new neighborhood will look like and who your new neighbors will be. I can vision multicars in the driveways as multi-families move in. Can we have another quote this time next year.
“Blewett would have the city get into the business of second mortgages for buyers, paying for 15 percent of the cost of a home. The second mortgage wouldn’t have to be repaid, if the buyers (all of low-to-moderate income) live in their new house for 11 years. (Buyers would also have to take a class on building and maintaining good credit to qualify for the loans.)”
Playing games to get low-income families into homes, relying on greedy developers to provide a future for entire communities (see Merced), and supplying corrupt and incompetent Wall Street fat cats with hundreds of billions of dollars we’ll have to borrow from Russia, China and Saudi Arabia, are leading us down the road to ruin.
Bankers, real estate moguls, and rock star CEOs will have a stranglehold on national resources for the foreseeable future, so whoever gets us out of this mess will have to do it with very little capital.
Builders dumping land for tax reasons:
http://tinyurl.com/4m9z8s
“Horton two weeks ago sold about 2,000 house lots in Desert Hot Springs for $7.8 million, according to Riverside County property records. William Shopoff, a land investor who bid unsuccessfully for the property, estimates Horton paid about $110 million for the land before spending to prepare the property for development by grading and installing infrastructure such as sewers.”
Sold for less than 10 cents on the dollar from around $50k per lot to $4k per lot.
“Horton also recently sold a 4-acre parcel in Escondido for $4.4 million, about 25 percent of what it paid for the property in 2005, according to the San Diego County assessor.”
“The fire sales are a silver lining in those clouds. Tax law allows companies to apply losses from land and other asset sales to past profits and reap a tax refund. More sales are expected soon because the companies can apply losses only to profits earned as far back as two years, and 2006 was the last profitable full year for most builders.”
“Horton had $851.2 million in cash on hand at the end of its fiscal third quarter, June 30, up from $270 million at the end of last year, according to research firm Zelman & Associates. Horton owes about $210 million in annual interest payments, according to Zelman.”
“Still, big builders such as Horton aren’t out of the woods. Horton has $585 million in debt that needs to be paid off in 2009, $362 million due in 2010 and $450 million in 2011, according to Zelman & Associates.”
I just finished watching a FOX news 1 hour long special on the economic crisis. What a load of BS. Basically it was a hit piece on democrats who they claimed where the real architects of this crises. Not one mention of Glass-Segal act and Phil Gramm. No mention of that, in the fall of 2000, when a lame-duck session of Congress passed a little-noticed piece of legislation called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act. The bill effectively kept much of the market for derivatives and other exotic instruments off-limits to agencies that regulate more conventional assets like stocks, bonds and futures contracts. Supported by Phil Gramm, then a Republican senator from Texas and chairman of the Senate Banking Committee and now senior economic adviser to John McCain. Sure democrats are in just as deep as republicans but to think that this can be dumped on the current congress is just wrong. This whole mess is because a democratic government was perverted with capitalism.
I remember a old Eric Clapton album with the phrase “Clapton is GOD”. I now think Ron Paul is GOD.
CFMA didn’t “prohibit” regulation of credit default swaps. It settled a jurisdictional dispute between the Commodities Futures Trading Commission and the SEC about such regulation, with the CFTC being barred from exercising regulatory jurisdiction. The SEC and states were free to regulate CDS as much as they wanted — which turned out to be not much.
Incidentally, the CDS provision was inserted into the CFMA at the request of the Clinton Administration, whose treasury secretary Robert Rubin had opposed CDS regulation when the CFTC tried to assert regulatory jurisdiction two years prior.
As for Gramm-Leach-Bliley (which Joe Biden voted for), nobody has explained how the repeal of Glass-Steagall is supposed to have caused this mess. Glass-Steagall was a regulatory safeguard against a different problem.
All this illustrates the foolishness of seeing the present mess as a morality tale between Republicans, who supposedly want no regulation whatsoever (which of course is nothing close to true) and Democrats, who always regulate just the right thing in just the right way.
The problem is that most of the people who are moaning about “deregulation” have no idea *what* to regulate to avoid this kind of problem. So we’ll get the worst of both worlds — an oppressive, growth-killing regulatory burden that doesn’t actually prevent any economic harm, like Sarbox.
This may be off-topic but when did salaries get so out of whack? There’s the Oprahs,Katies, Matts, etc who make millions and millions to talk. Granted they’re good at it but… multimillionaires? Tiger Woods can hit a ball in a hole very far away — what is he worth now..1/2 billion? Athletes signing multi-million dollar contracts out of high school…? CEOs making millions and millions and millions to lay off hundreds / thousands of workers to “cut costs”. Oh, and lets not forget about the “Friends”… 1.2 million an episode???! OTher actors/actresses making 20 million to pretend to be somebody else for 4 months? Yet our policemen, firemen, teachers are struggling to make ends meet - in Fairfax County VA, they have to provide “affordable” or subsidized housing so they can live and work in the same place. How and why did incomes become so disproportionately skewed?
I don’t know how much they pay in VA, but in North Texas teachers start at $45k fresh out of colleg and thats with summers and every major holiday off. A few certificates and a masters and you can hit $80k.
If you can coach a winning football team, $100k+.
You must be living in ‘la-la’ land. I live in Texas, and I have friends who are teachers. They make nowhere near the amounts you are describing, and they work in some of the best, and best funded school districts in central texas.
80k for a teacher in Texas? Keep on dreamin’
I used to live in Tx and I can tell that’s BS.
Here is the current salary schedule for teachers in Amarrillo, TX
http://www.amaisd.org/humanres/documents/salaries.pdf
Right out of college with a Bachelor’s Degree = 40,000
Right ouf of college with a Mater’s Degree = 40,400
It’s kind of the internet phenomenon. If you get enough people involved, as the population expands, some really are that good and worthwhile. And some really are that stupid, hence the 1% that support the entire internet spamming economy.
Perhaps modern business needs the 1% smart-and-ruthless that can most reliably fleece the 1% super moronic.
The “outlier” theory of business? It’s just a theory, but perhaps it seems to work, so they pay the salaries. I suppose a business’ stock price is set on the margins of performance? So the difference between a 99th percentile CEO and a 95th percentile CEO might be enough difference to double or triple your profit? The fantasy here may be that you can interview and figure out which is 95th and which is 99th.
“Likening the push for Friday’s bailout bill to that which preceded Congress’ authorization of the Iraq war, Rep. Pete Stark was the only Bay Area House member to vote against the revised Wall Street rescue bill Friday.
That’s my guy! Pete Stark. I sent him an e-mail saying thanks for doing the right thing, Pete.
Another one hits the dust.
Politicians from Germany’s governing parties said bank managers should be held responsible if their institution gets into trouble. Meanwhile, Berlin called for a solution after the collapse of Hypo Real Estate’s bailout.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3691371,00.html
I’m for debtors prisons
‘Not having a mortgage payment meant I didn’t have to file for bankruptcy because I could pay other bills, like credit cards and the electric bill,’ said Harpster, whose income as a real estate agent dried up along with the market. ‘But I’m not trying to take advantage of the situation. I tried to do what I thought was right. To me, it’s the bank’s fault this has stalled.’”