October 6, 2008

Doing Something Very Logical

The Associated Press reports on Virginia. “More than half of people surveyed in an Associated Press-GfK poll released Wednesday said they worry that they will have to work longer because the value of their retirement savings has declined. Denise Edwards, 62, now expects to work for at least another decade selling condominiums because of the damage to her and her husband John’s retirement savings. In the last four years, Edward’s IRA has hovered at about the same level, and the couple’s other savings of less than $1 million have taken a double-digit hit this fall. They also still owe $425,000 on a house with a market value of $650,000.”

“‘We just have to work for as long as possible. And we’re going to have to count on our (two) daughters,’ said Edwards, who lives in a Virginia suburb of Washington.”

The Washington Post. “Shirley McCoy stopped paying her homeowners association fee six months ago. She figured she was doing the job the association should be — filing complaints against neighbors who violated the rules, cutting the lawn of the foreclosed house next door and picking up litter in common areas — so why bother paying dues?”

“Ten percent of her neighbors in the Dale City subdivision are delinquent on dues, according to Carlos Labiosa, the resident manager of the neighborhood association. ‘It doesn’t look good when you are trying to maintain your property and you look across the street and there’s trash out front, the screen door is falling off, and the shutter is off the hinges. That’s devaluing our property. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who isn’t paying it,’ McCoy said.”

“Trisha Bayles, who has been saving for years to buy her first home, got flustered when bidding started on the house she wanted in Laurel. In a matter of minutes, the 34-year-old had agreed to buy a two-story red brick home for less than half of the $465,000 price it sold for about a year ago.”

“‘This guy in front of me said it was going for $210,000 and next thing I know the auctioneer is in the aisle saying: ‘You want it for $200,000?’ Bayles said. ‘I’m like: ‘Okay, sure.’ Then I was like: ‘Did I get the house?’ And then it was like: ‘Yes, yes. I got it!’”

From Reuters on Maryland. “Coldwell Banker Real Estate said some 25,000 sellers listing homes with its brokers will cut prices during its first national, 10-day sales event starting on Friday. A recent Coldwell Banker survey found that more than half of the real estate agents said listing prices in their market are too high to attract qualified buyers. Brokers, however, believe that, depending on the market, a price cut of up to 10 percent will be enough to stoke sales.”

“Kathryn Taylor is one seller who hopes that’s the case. ‘The economy. No movement for our home, or even any interest, just because people are scared,’ she said, explaining her decision to cut the asking price on her parents’ home in Silver Spring, Maryland, by 10 percent for 10 days.”

“The two master-bedroom, two-bathroom home in an over-55 community was listed in May at $458,000, undercutting several nearby sellers of the same model. ‘This is the first time we’re lowering it, and we really didn’t want to do that because we listed it to sell,’ she said. ‘We knew things were tough, but the home is a really desirable unit in a neighborhood that rarely has anything come open so we didn’t think it would have any problems selling.’”

“Taylor is getting ‘more antsy’ about selling. Her father passed away last year and her mother is moving to a nursing home that costs $9,000 each month. With stock wealth being roiled, ‘it’s getting more and more important to keep her afloat by selling this house,’ she said of her mother.”

The Maryland Daily Record. “The meltdown in the real estate and financial markets is accomplishing what the passage of time has failed to do: giving bankruptcy lawyers more work than they can handle. Filings this year are on track to surpass 2007. Statistics from the federal court system show that as of the end of September, all bankruptcy filings in Maryland were up more than 32 percent from the same time in 2007, for a total so far this year of 12,598.”

“Maryland Chapter 7 bankruptcies have increased the most. As of the end of August, they were up close to 64 percent from that time last year, to 6,965.”

“Chapter 13 filings, by contrast, are almost flat compared to last year. One of the big problems with Chapter 13 is something that would be an advantage in a better real estate market: It lets a debtor save his home from foreclosure by permitting him to make up his missed mortgage payments.

But that option makes little sense for a homeowner whose house has so depreciated in value that he owes much more in missed mortgage payments than the house is worth. People who a few years ago might have filed Chapter 13 to save the house are filing Chapter 7 and walking away, said Brett Weiss, a solo bankruptcy lawyer in Olney.”

“‘So many properties are underwater that people look at this and they say it’s not worth it,’ he said.”

The Morning Call from Pennsylvania. “In Lehigh County, foreclosure filings this year have already exceeded those of 2007. In Northampton County, they’re on track to dwarf last year’s mammoth number. Local officials were hoping the $700 billion bailout by Congress would offer more help. ‘We’re kind of waiting with bated breath on this new thing,’ said Lori Sywensky, Northampton County community development administrator. ‘Like everywhere else, we have the same issue. People bought homes for more than they are worth.’”

“John Rossi, an accounting professor at Moravian College, said he believes the bailout was ill considered. He expects foreclosures to continue to rise next year as the value of housing continues to fall, leaving some owners’ debts greater than the value of their homes.”

”’People are doing something very logical,’ Rossi said. ‘They’re saying, ‘Hey, I owe more money on my house than it is worth. I’m going to quit making payments.”’

The Post Standard from New York. “Central New York’s housing market could only stay in its protected bubble for so long. Agents say central New York may have become caught in the national undertow. After a tour of open houses in Onondaga County Sunday, most of the real estate agents and homeowners - especially in higher-priced homes in the suburbs - said few potential buyers were coming through the doors and very few were getting offers.”

“Dawn Moyer, an agent with Gallinger Realty USA, said 3267 Greenleafe Drive, in Lysander, has been on the market since last winter. The 3,300-square-foot house is priced at $289,900 - $35,000 less than its assessment. Yet she said she has resorted to giving out free strawberry smoothies to lure potential home buyers to tour the property. The owners moved to Georgia and are so eager to get rid of the home they’d consider even low-ball offers, she said.”

“‘Nothing in this price range is moving,’ she said. ‘(Homes priced at) $100,000 or less are moving because the first-time home buyers are still buying. They are not worried about the economy because you can get deals on a house for less than rent, so why not?’”

“Bill Hanlon, who recent bought 479 Brattle Road, in Syracuse, didn’t sell his Court Street house. Instead, he rented it, he said. The asking price on the Brattle Road house was $154,000, but the owner was so desperate to get rid of it, Hanlon was able to purchase it for $112,000, he said.”

“‘It’s always a hunt to try to find a house or someone in that position,’ he said. ‘I looked at it as an investment opportunity.’”

“Steve Engel, a retired dentist, bought a home in Florida and wants to sell his house in Sedgwick. The $319,900 house has been on the market since March and the Engels plan to move to Florida later this fall. His real estate agent, Peggy Fogarty-Cadaret, said Sedgwick is a unique, niche neighborhood that appeals to a certain type of buyer. Those looking for historic upscale homes have few options and, once they decide they want a classic house, will pay to get it. Thus, she said, she is confident Sedgwick will retain its value.”

“Yet Steve Engel continues to wait and may have to postpone his move to Florida. ‘I’m philosophical about it,’ he said. ‘All you can do is make your house as presentable as possible.’”

The Nashua Telegraph from New Hampshire. “Politicians, pundits and economists might be floating different theories for what caused the nation’s economic crisis, but city residents seem to agree where the responsibility lies. The majority of residents said the culprits were banks that irresponsibly extended loans to customers who shouldn’t have received them and the borrowers who took the money and found themselves unable to pay high-rate predatory mortgages.”

“‘I think the banks are responsible for the credit problem because they loaned to people whether you have (good) credit or not,’ said Pat Tyszko, 71, who paused from her part-time job working behind the counter at Crosby Bakery on East Pearl Street.”

“‘We’re all to blame,’ said a man who appeared to be in his 30s. ‘If you’re the bank, you gave me money. If I’m the person borrowing, I borrowed more than I could afford, thinking that the housing market was going to go up.’”

“Denise Beaudet agreed that lenders and borrowers are to blame for the credit crisis. ‘I think the lenders who made those risky mortgages and made those decisions are responsible for the debt and the mortgages that failed,’ said Beaudet.”

“Beaudet said people who borrowed more than they should have also share in the blame. ‘It’s not my responsibility,’ she said. ‘I made sound financial decisions. I’m in good shape. I bought what I could afford. People who overextended themselves – you made your bed, you got to lie in it.’”




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89 Comments »

Comment by Dave of the North
2008-10-06 06:56:45

At least two people get it:

“‘We’re all to blame,’ said a man who appeared to be in his 30s. ‘If you’re the bank, you gave me money. If I’m the person borrowing, I borrowed more than I could afford, thinking that the housing market was going to go up.’”

“Denise Beaudet agreed that lenders and borrowers are to blame for the credit crisis. ….“Beaudet said people who borrowed more than they should have also share in the blame. ‘It’s not my responsibility,’ she said. ‘I made sound financial decisions. I’m in good shape. I bought what I could afford. People who overextended themselves – you made your bed, you got to lie in it.’”

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-10-06 07:12:32

I’ve said it before; people in New Hampshire are the most level headed in the country.

Comment by Tim
2008-10-06 08:34:48

While I am happy they accepted some responsibility, I still hate the use of the “all” word. Last night I spoke to my sister who called me to ask my opinion on the bailout, which is a big step because my family actually tried to get me on depression meds for several years for going all cash and refusing to buy a house on the basis I believed there was a housing bubble and the global banking system was in danger. She didn’t like my answer. When I suggest that renting in the face of unreasonable prices was an option, she cursed and hung up on me. In her mind, renting is akin to child abuse when you have a family.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-06 09:29:02

“my family actually tried to get me on depression meds for several years for going all cash and refusing to buy a house on the basis I believed there was a housing bubble and the global banking system was in danger.”

Are you serious? No offense, but I don’t think your family likes you very much. I mean, I can understand disagreeing with and maybe making fun of you, but trying to get you on depression meds? That’s creepy.

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Comment by gather no moss
2008-10-06 10:46:44

I had a psychologist tell me I could certainly afford a house in Suburban Boston on $100K a year. He looked at me like I was crazy not to take a speculative risk.

I miss NH, think we’re going to end up there again, maybe Hampstead or Chester.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-06 09:45:45

‘…she cursed and hung up on me.’

Jeezily, Tim, you know what? Your family apparently contains a bunch of thorough assh0les. I’m sorry about that, because that’s a sucky situation to be in. You have my sympathy. Leave them alone, sitting there in Assh0le Soup, and go hang out with neat-o, smart, considerate people, is my advice. And don’t waste valuable phone minutes on your sister any more, either.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-06 09:55:26

Oh, and when they’re all foreclosed on and evicted DON’T let them move in with you, not now and not in your new house that you pay for with cash in a couple of years, neither one.
I sense that that would be a bad idea.

 
Comment by tresho
2008-10-06 11:36:01

she cursed and hung up on me That behavior might make sense to someone who believes that renting is criminal behavior akin to child abuse. Myself, I would avoid such believers to preserve my own sanity.

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 10:01:00

Who’s crazy now? Although with family it pays to hold back on “I told you so.” I’m not understanding tha attitude though: “Child abuse”? Pu-leese. Foreclosure or parents perpetually arguing about money is far worse for kids than ZOMG-RENTING!

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Comment by Tim
2008-10-06 11:18:31

Well you know how it goes. Rather than admit I was right, I get blamed along with fellow bloggers for the crash, because we all know the run-up was based on fundmentals but the crash was a blogger conspiracy. Housing is way under-valued, it’s a great time to buy now, etc., etc. First thing any family member says when they call me is, “have you bought a house yet, you cant actually expect it to get any lower can you?” Denial runs deep. I’m also an asshole for welcoming foreclosures. They haven’t connected all the dots to realize that foreclosure is the only way to long term affordibility. Although they all claim to be bleeding heart liberals, they get lost somewhere between the math and their own wallet.

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Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 12:22:36

“have you bought a house yet, you cant actually expect it to get any lower can you?”
Proposed answer:
“Well yes I do, as a matter of fact. With the credit crisis just starting I figure that we’ve got awhile before house prices bottom out. I don’t think we’ll hit bottom until sometime after mortgage rates hit 12%.”

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2008-10-06 12:46:45

Shoot the messenger.

 
 
Comment by Tim
2008-10-06 11:25:56

Yes, it is true. To them, renting a 1bdrm when you make well into the six figures, driving a 10 year old honda accord, and keeping debt at zero because of fear of a crash and job loss is a sign of paranoia. If only more ppl were paranoid we wouldnt be in this mess. I always heard, why arent you in a million dollar house driving a luxury cars? What is the matter with you? You only live once - live it up. I actually started to wonder if I was going crazy before I found this blog. It was on my favorites for a few years, but I only started commenting as my work load has steadily decreased post peak.

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Comment by Tim
2008-10-06 11:39:36

Sorry for the multiple posts. I get impatient when they seem lost. I will try to work on it.

 
Comment by tresho
2008-10-06 11:43:27

Tim, maybe you could put this message on your answering machine: “I believe in the Gods of the Copybook Headings. If you don’t, I don’t want to talk to you. Good bye.” If you don’t have an answering machine, just say that as soon as you pick up your phone, then push any button on the phone to mimic the answering machine tone.
As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all…
With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things…
Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four—
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
[Kipling]

 
Comment by Lost in Utah
2008-10-06 12:19:48

Tim, always enjoy your very informative posts, thank you.

Sometimes you have to just let family go their own road. Take a quick turn to the right when they think you’re going left and just gun it.

I had some family members who no longer know where I’m at (not my parents, they were cool). But then, I often don’t know where I’m at either, so at least I don’t feel too guilty about not staying in touch with them. My happiness quotient has gone way up. Just sayin’.

DNA doesn’t mean forever.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-10-06 14:04:29

Tim -

First, that just sucks about your relatives. I have to agree with the good advice given here. (Lost and Olympiagal especially know what they are talking about…) No need to hang out/talk with people that are jerks just because you share their DNA.

The best move we ever made for our marriage was to agree to “live and let live” with my in-laws. They have chased both the real estate and dot.com bubbles and in lots of ways, I don’t really consider them good people. We hardly talk with them now (me almost never, husband once a month).

I think also appreciate more the relative sanity of my relatives, even if we don’t always agree or have the same lifestyles.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-10-06 07:22:32

Then I was like: ‘Did I get the house?’ And then it was like: ‘Yes, yes. I got it!’”

Yes Trisha, you really got it. Boy did you get it!

(…and you can get stucco too….)

Comment by InMontana
2008-10-06 08:10:51

Like, wow.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 08:27:58

$200k. I’m amazed at the way people toss around hundreds of thousands of someone elses money like it is……. someone elses money.

Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 09:28:39

That’s actually not a bad price for the area, if the home is reasonably nice.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 09:34:37

Maybe so but $200k is alot of money where I’m from.

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Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 10:03:18

Oh, I agree, it’s alot of money. When I bought in 1999, the most that I was sure that I could afford was the 140k region. But the job market is steady and incomes are pretty good in the area.

 
 
 
 
Comment by lonestarQT
2008-10-06 15:06:40

And don’t you just hate the, “I’m like… and then she’s like …and then I’m like… and they’re like…” Arrugggh! What ever happened to the verb “said”? Why did it become so unpopular?Drives me nuts.

 
 
Comment by reuven avram
2008-10-06 07:44:04

Denise Edwards, 62, now expects to work for at least another decade selling condominiums because of the damage to her and her husband John’s retirement savings

Well, Denise, you can work a decade selling condos, or you can work a couple of years in Wal*Mart.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-06 08:55:02

Wait a tick. Someone thinks that selling condoze during the next decade is a viable plan? Ha. Opening a used Yugo dealership would be a better move.

 
 
Comment by reuven avram
2008-10-06 07:50:59

The Washington Post. “Shirley McCoy stopped paying her homeowners association fee six months ago. She figured she was doing the job the association should be — filing complaints against neighbors who violated the rules, cutting the lawn of the foreclosed house next door and picking up litter in common areas — so why bother paying dues?”

Years ago several of us here pointed out that these HOAs are ticking time bombs! If other folks don’t pay, YOU have to pick up the slack. And it’ll only take a few non-payers to convince everyone not to pay. It also removes your flexibility in case you need to do something to get through hard times, whether it’s running a business from your home, or planting vegetables instead of grass.

With the new BoFA Settlement, the “The neighbors aren’t paying, why should I” sentiment will spread to mortgages. Why should your neighbors be eligibale for a settlement just because they were deadbeats?

Comment by Frank Hague
2008-10-06 07:58:31

HOAs, condos, townhouses, co-ops any type of real estate where you are dependent on others are going to have problems. That article was a great example of what can happen, even those who can pay stop because they don’t see the point.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-06 12:38:50

HOA payment breakdowns = the tragedy of the commons.

 
 
Comment by Incredulous (the original)
2008-10-06 07:58:55

“Bill Hanlon, who recent bought 479 Brattle Road, in Syracuse, didn’t sell his Court Street house. Instead, he rented it, he said. The asking price on the Brattle Road house was $154,000, but the owner was so desperate to get rid of it, Hanlon was able to purchase it for $112,000, he said.

“‘It’s always a hunt to try to find a house or someone in that position,’ he said. ‘I looked at it as an investment opportunity.’”

Bottom feeders are so charming.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-06 08:41:14

Yep. Instead of paying $42K under the asking price he should have offered $42K OVER the asking price! That would be one small step toward the needed reflation of the housing market.

/sarcasm

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-10-06 09:15:13

This problem will not be over until the “infestors” are clear from the market.

Sane people who just want a decent house cannot compete with nutjobs who are tossing around money in a vain hope for profit as they buy up swaths of houses and leave them in various states of disrepair when their insane dreams of upgrading and flipping houses crash into reality.

Comment by Kim
2008-10-06 09:33:40

“Sane people who just want a decent house cannot compete with nutjobs who are tossing around money in a vain hope for profit as they buy up swaths of houses and leave them in various states of disrepair when their insane dreams of upgrading and flipping houses crash into reality.”

Take heart, someone has to lower the comps for the rest of us.

 
Comment by ex-WA
2008-10-06 09:37:01

First, remove the ability of the FHA to make 5 loans to the same borrower. Why is the govt enabling house flippers?

Second, no real (non-”investor”) buyer should ever, ever buy from an “investor”, unless they know for a fact that the seller is losing money on the deal. If every potential buyer in the country would commit to that, the “investors” would be eliminated from the market.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-06 10:12:29

ex-WA,

I can’t agree with that fast enough! It makes absolutely no sense for someone that is looking for a primary residence ( and nothing more ) to deal with these sharks. Let them feed off each other. Why not? That’s what they’ve done for at least the last 7-8 years!

That’s how I figure lots got so expensive. For every home that was built, the lot it now resides upon was probably flipped back and forth between builders, developers and specuvestors at least once and in many instances as many as THREE times!

It hasn’t been until they had to sell to the “general population” that the Ponzi fell apart. Another reason the Bail Out collateral is just about worthless.

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Comment by BubbleViewer
2008-10-06 08:11:05

“Denise Edwards, 62, now expects to work for at least another decade selling condominiums because of the damage to her and her husband John’s retirement savings.”
Repair damage to retirement savings by selling condos? I don’t think so.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 08:18:12

“Steve Engel, a retired dentist, bought a home in Florida and wants to sell his house in Sedgwick(Syracuse, NY).”

Attention upstate NY koolade drinkers. The flee from the northeast to warmer climates was never suspended. It was, is and will always be the macro trend. Yes… the poorest of poor in NYC metro areas will migrate north in search of more affordable housing but when your local housing stock is priced at the same level as the metro burbs, that trend goes out the window. Wrap your mind around this; $10/hr jobs will never float $200k houses in upstate NY.

Comment by CincyDad
2008-10-06 09:23:48

Don’t forget… the property taxes on a home in the Syracuse region run close to 4% of the market value EACH YEAR. Can’t begin to pay the taxes on a $10/hr wage, let alone the P&I.

Syracuse is a 4+ hr drive from NYCity, so it’s not a viable option for city workers.

And that guy who just “low-balled” a house and saved $42k on the purchase price, also just saved $1,600/yr in taxes!

Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 09:33:31

Unless I wasn’t clear, my point is that there will always be more inventory than demand in upstate NY. The bubble trend, years 01-06 there were a large number of of metro residents cashing out and buying “cheap” upstate. Given the current conditions of NYC/LI/NJ/CT markets, that trend is at a dead standstill and I anticipate it will reverse and resume in that opposite direction for many years to come. Irrespective of that, population in the northeast will continue its long term decline. Additionally, spiraling property taxes and low wages will continue to keep a lid on prices, as you mentioned.

 
Comment by Kim
2008-10-06 09:35:51

“the property taxes on a home in the Syracuse region run close to 4% of the market value EACH YEAR”

Dang! You guys have Chicago beat. We’re running at 2%-2.5%, and I think that is ridiculous.

Comment by novawatcher
2008-10-06 20:13:06

In NoVA, we pay roughly 1%, but our houses are double, so it’s a wash.

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-06 08:18:29

Following a death in the family, certain of my relatives also had to sell a house in an over-55 community “that rarely has anything come open.” It took three realtors and a 40% price cut before they were successful, and this was in late 2006. The longer they held out, the more the estate was drained by utilities, HOA fees, and the like.

This country is being overwhelmed by long-denied mathematical realities.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-06 08:31:05

“They also still owe $425,000 on a house with a market value of $650,000″

Uh… ‘that’s’ the reason you’re going to have to work until you are both quite dead. I can’t believe it! What has happened to Traditional Financial Architecture? What makes people w/ an eye toward retirement think they can take on that level of debt that late in life?

A little help?!

( What a Regal Rump Pounding today, eh? )

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-06 09:07:21

What makes people w/ an eye toward retirement think they can take on that level of debt that late in life?
Answer: A rampant inflation in house prices and assurances from Realtors (TM) that the prices will continue to accelerate into the forseeable future at 30% per year. PLAN: Use high leverage to multiply your wealth with INFLATION.

Problem: leverage will take out ALL your gains in short order when the cycle reverses to deflation.

Perhaps their “real” equity is ZERO.
They just don’t know it, yet.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-06 09:37:29

diogenes,

Exactly. “Going Big” ( or upscale or gated community or golf course prop. etc. ) was all seen as a way to “supplement” your retirement! Why worry about paying off your mortgage when the “real” design was for ever larger homes and fatter ATM’s?

And you’re right, I’ll take it that they can’t sell their home, can’t borrow any further against it ( are you kidding me? ) so they really are up a creek and making PITI payments based on a 425k obligation every step of the way.

 
 
 
Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-06 08:37:07

Markets are taking a real beating today, any guesses on where the dow will bottom out? I’d say 7,500.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-06 09:43:40

Even with indices down around 5% today, it doesn’t feel like capitulation is here yet.

Got cash?

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-06 09:48:54

‘Got cash?’

Yes. Thanks for asking. And I’m feeling better and better about that fact by the freakin’ minute.

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-06 11:13:16

It sure is nice to be mostly in cash.

Have a Coke and a Smile! :)

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Comment by Vermontergal
2008-10-06 14:07:03

This weekend’s discussion topic: retirement accounts. Aunt is down 30%. Just sat and tried to look surprised. Lovin’ 3% interest.

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Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-06 18:16:57

I don’t get people who love cash. Even with 3% interest you’re still taking about double digit negative returns in real rates with the inflation. Your cash is monopoly money. Your cash is grains of sand. Clasp your hands together; you can have as much of it as you can carry.

This is about the total world-wide systemic collapse of fiat currency, as much as bubbles popping.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by weez
2008-10-06 08:50:10

Just got a funny email, don’t know how to link or post it but here is the jist…

HALLOWEEN IS GOING TO SUCK THIS YEAR !! Followed by a picture of trick or treators and every house has a foreclosure sign in front of it.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-06 09:27:46

Someone’s gotta tell the kiddies about the price of copper. Halloween won’t s*ck so much then.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 09:31:45

I saw a cartoon where the kid was dressed up as a foreclosure notice…..scary.

Comment by Dave of the North
2008-10-06 11:09:41

This headline is scary too:

“Treasury and Fed Pledge Rapid Response to Crisis”

Please, we’ve had enough with the rapid responses to date…

Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 12:27:25

Heck the headline isn’t nearly as scary as:
“WASHINGTON - The administration has selected a former Goldman Sachs executive to be the interim head of its $700 billion rescue effort for financial institutions.”

So not only is the plan to overpay for crap so that banks who lost their money have some money to lend, the person running the government Side of the transaction will an executive from one of the banks that was busy loosing all the money. Now THAT’S scary.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-10-06 09:09:02

Maryland is a disgustingly unaffordable state.

I was looking through the latest “new homes” booklet (free at your local Realwhore’s office) and to find a new home that is affordable by traditional, realistic, standards to a family making the median household income for the state, you’d have to move about 80 miles away from the BWI area (where all the jobs are) to Hagerstown. In the BWI area, housing typically starts in the upper 200’s to the 300’s just for “entry level new houses.” Clearly, there is a problem here, but the locals think that since they didn’t get a “subprime” loan, but instead got magical Option ARM / Pick a Payment / Alt-A loan, somehow that will let them avoid the impossibility of actually paying for their unaffordable house.

As this silliness continues, and Lennar bombards the airwaves with “sales” on the assorted grossly oversized and overpriced starter palaces that they sell, Post-War Shoeboxes and condos that border the ‘Hood continue to go for 4x income. Which is great, if you don’t need silly things like: a parking space (on street parking in a state full of SUV’s for the win!), more than 1 bathroom, or anything built in the past 30 years. And if you like glorified apartments, Maryland has overpriced condos in spades, many that have been on the market since forever without any meaningful price reductions.

This state needs to fall, and fall HARD to get back to reality.

Comment by Jen
2008-10-06 09:47:57

Exactly. MD prices are insane compared to what the average MD worker makes.

I found this info at bubblemore.blogspot.com. It really explains the “MD is such a rich state” mentality many have, but why we can’t support these prices.

“The median wage in Maryland in 2007 grew by 2.5% over 2006. At $18.25 it is only 4.4% above the 1999 level, adjusted for inflation.

Maryland now enjoys the highest median household income among the 50 states, at $68,080. The increase seems to have been driven mostly by income growth among affluent and upper-middle class Marylanders, not middle-class and blue-collar workers. Moreover, Maryland’s high median family income masks great disparities among Maryland’s localities. Maryland includes two of the nation’s wealthiest 10 jurisdictions over 250,000 population (Montgomery and Howard Counties), while Baltimore City has the eighth lowest median income of any jurisdiction over 250,000 population.

The gap between high-and low-earning workers in Maryland remains persistently high, mirroring national trends.”

Comment by novawatcher
2008-10-06 20:21:16

Maryland includes the rich DC suburbs, the ‘hood of Baltimore, the outskirts of Appalachia, and parts of DelMarVa (Iowa on the coast). To use the median income of the entire state, is, well, dumb.

Having said that, prices are still wacko. At the height of the bubble, new ’starter’ homes were going for $600k across the river in VA. You can lower than to $450k if your definition of a starter home is a townhouse in the exurbs instead of a SFH with a yard.

 
 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-10-06 10:20:01

MD has lots of “hood”
I lived there and excaped to VA

 
 
Comment by Dr. Detroit
2008-10-06 09:22:56

@bottomfisherman
The best technical guess for the market comes from Louise Yamada. She is regarded at the best technician around. She was calling for the Dow to go to (I think) around 8500. She said this way back when the sun was shining and the Dow was north of 12k. The guy interviewing on CNBC was disbelieving, of course. I bet he’s not now. She has not been on the show in awhile. Nor have any other so-called “perma bears”. Glad the media is unbiased.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-06 09:30:37

I dunno, but I recall a lot of folks picked a bottom in 1930…and…1931…and…1932…

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-06 09:46:59

And that will happen this time. The markets will bump along at/near their lows for a number of years.

Will it take a world war to bail us out, like it did in the GD?

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-10-06 10:22:53

1921 was deeper and ended in a flash- no gov plans at all
the more “help” we get the longer it will last

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Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-06 11:08:37

That’s the kicker - folks have recently taken to entertaining some dire scenarios - but how many are really thinking outside the box - so to speak?

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Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-06 11:27:44

“Will it take a world war to bail us out, like it did in the GD?”

I think not. We already have 2 wars going they don’t appear to be helping the economy at all. If WW3 breaks out and the button gets pressed we won’t need to worry about bubbles, depressions or anything else ever again.

A 50% Dow crash from the 07 peak should be enough to through us into another GD IMO.

Batten down the hatches maties, there’s one hell of a storm blowing in- We ain’t seen nothing yet.

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Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-06 18:24:19

A 50% Dow crash has already more than happened. Just realize the money supply has more than doubled in the last 8 years, and those index numbers like the Dow are already less than half what they nominally say today in real terms. The 1929-31 mirror crash has already occurred. The government just manipulated the numbers, like lying about real CPI inflation.

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2008-10-06 12:32:58

Only if we use it to destroy our competition. Because it wasn’t making tanks and bombers and artillery pieces that got us out of the GD. It was destroying the infrastructure of our competetion and then having them buy replacements from us that allowed us to pay down the MASSIVE debts that we had after the war.

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Comment by Curt
2008-10-06 10:06:04

I just read this AM that the stock market did not recover from it’s 1932 low until 1954 .

A sobering thought.

Comment by Jay_Huhman
2008-10-06 12:40:18

“I just read this AM that the stock market did not recover from it’s 1932 low until 1954 .”

I think you mean that the DJIA did not exceed its 1929 high until 1954.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-06 12:47:55

That’s my comeback whenever someone tells me to invest for the long term. I like to ask the advice-giver which time period he or she is referring to.

Another good stretch of non-growth is 1965 to 1982.

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Comment by Blano
2008-10-06 11:30:54

‘I’m LIKE: ‘Okay, sure.’ Then I was LIKE: ‘Did I get the house?’ And then it was LIKE: ‘Yes, yes. I got it!’”

OMIGOD the overuse of that word drives me insane.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 12:02:20

That’s like….. pretty cool.

 
 
Comment by satan
2008-10-06 11:36:46

The carnage.. look at the stock market!!

 
Comment by dc_renter
2008-10-06 11:51:38

The next shoe to drop is going to be the states’ budgets. They all invested in the housing market as well. So retirement funds,school budgets, etc …. oh my.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 12:04:47

BINGO dc…. Public pension funds/retirement plans are the next bailout candidates.

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-10-06 12:23:50

sht- I was hoping they’d have to do some honest work

Comment by exeter
2008-10-06 13:53:39

Nope. We’re going to tax you instead. And you’re going to like it.

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Comment by Mirtika
2008-10-06 18:02:27

I find it offensive to tax the public for a benefit the public doesn’t widely obtain. Hubby’s employer doesn’t offer a pension. Why should we pay for a pension for public employees.

I think it’s time to tell the bureaucrats they don’t get better than the public. No pensions for us; no pensions for YOU.

Mir

 
 
 
 
Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-06 18:29:39

The bubble is also in insane health care prices and tuition education costs.

My god, people desperate to sell $400K plus houses to pay for $9K a month nursing home bills! That’s $108K a year elder living expense!

 
 
Comment by ChrisO
2008-10-06 11:52:17

Those RE boosters in the Washington DC area were harping about how all the high-paid lawyers and bureaucrats would keep the housing market from going down. How’s that working out for ya now?

In my close-in Arlington, Va. neighborhood, prices have just started to tip down from stupid highs, and idiots are still putting 50-year-old shacks on the market for $700,000+. But the bloodbath going on out in the far suburbs is working its way inward. Don’t worry, DC suburbanites in Md. and Va., affordability is on its way–just be patient. You’d be crazy to buy right now, in any case. Keep your powder dry.

 
Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-06 12:18:35

“They also still owe $425,000 on a house with a market value of $650,000.”

Edward’s Family Christmas Carol:
jingle mail, jingle mail, jingle all the way
oh what fun it is to ride on a dead-horse bk sleigh

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-06 12:32:15

Watching the markets today, I was definitely reminded of a couple of tidbits that stuck when I read Galbraith’s “The Great Crash, 1929″.

1929: People everywhere are waiting with great anticipation as “great men” meet to plan how to save the markets. Now: Central bankers are meeting everywhere, stepping in to stabilize markets, guaranteeing deposits, etc. Check.

1929: High volatility in the markets; big surges both up and down. Now: Ditto. Check.

Anyone else want to pitch in on this fun topic? :-)

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-06 12:57:48

From Wikipedia- Wall Street Crash of 1929

After an amazing five-year run when the world saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) increase in value fivefold, prices peaked at 381.17 on September 3, 1929.[19] The market then fell sharply for a month, losing 17% of its value on the initial leg down. Prices then recovered more than half of the losses over the next week, only to turn back down immediately afterwards. The decline then accelerated into the so-called “Black Thursday”, October 24, 1929. A record number of 12.9 million shares were traded on that day. At 1 p.m. on Friday, October 25, several leading Wall Street bankers met to find a solution to the panic and chaos on the trading floor. The meeting included Thomas W. Lamont, acting head of Morgan Bank; Albert Wiggin, head of the Chase National Bank; and Charles E. Mitchell, president of the National City Bank. They chose Richard Whitney, vice president of the Exchange, to act on their behalf. With the bankers’ financial resources behind him, Whitney placed a bid to purchase a large block of shares in U.S. Steel at a price well above the current market. As amazed traders watched, Whitney then placed similar bids on other “blue chip” stocks. This tactic was similar to a tactic that ended the Panic of 1907, and succeeded in halting the slide that day. In this case, however, the respite was only temporary.

Over the weekend, the events were covered by the newspapers across the United States. On Monday, October 28, the first “Black Monday”,[20] more investors decided to get out of the market, and the slide continued with a record loss in the Dow for the day of 13%. The next day, “Black Tuesday”, October 29, 1929, about 16 million shares were traded.[21][22][23] The volume on stocks traded on October 29, 1929 was “…a record that was not broken for nearly 40 years, in 1968.”[22] Author Richard M. Salsman wrote that on October 29—amid rumors that U.S. President Herbert Hoover would not veto the pending Hawley-Smoot Tariff bill—stock prices crashed even further.”[18] William C. Durant joined with members of the Rockefeller family and other financial giants to buy large quantities of stocks in order to demonstrate to the public their confidence in the market, but their efforts failed to stop the slide. The DJIA lost another 12% that day. The ticker did not stop running until about 7:45 that evening. The market lost $14 billion in value that day, bringing the loss for the week to $30 billion, ten times more than the annual budget of the federal government, far more than the U.S. had spent in all of World War I.[24]

—— We are about here now ———–

An interim bottom occurred on November 13, with the Dow closing at 198.6 that day. The market recovered for several months from that point, with the Dow reaching a secondary peak at 294.0 in April 1930. The market embarked on a steady slide in April 1931 that did not end until 1932 when the Dow closed at 41.22 on July 8, concluding a shattering 89% decline from the peak.

===============

I’d say we we are currently at the 1929 Black Tuesday phase of the Wall Street Crash of 2008.

Comment by InMontana
2008-10-06 13:40:22

Whitney then placed similar bids on other “blue chip” stocks.

Is this comparable to what Buffett has been doing?

 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-06 12:46:10

Was out of touch for a few days. Went to homecoming weekend at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

While I was there, I attended a forum in the department of my college major, economics.

The forum featured 14 University of Michigan-trained economists, and the house (U-M’s Lorch Hall auditorium) was packed. Their topic: The current financial troubles.

As the forum was happening the U.S. House of Representatives was voting on Bailout 2.0. One of the economists announced that Bailout 2.0 had passed, and the audience reaction was stunned silence, followed by very little applause.

The bring-down-the-house line came from one of the economists. He wasn’t in favor of suspending mark-to-market rules, and that was putting it mildly. Among other not-so-nice things, he said, “If you don’t like the temperature, you don’t break the thermometer!

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-06 14:59:56

The thermometer can easily be fixed between the time when the Treasury buys all the toxic debt off lenders’ books and the time when Uncle Sam figures out what he has bought.

 
 
Comment by Englishman in NJ
2008-10-06 13:14:41

This is probably related to all that’s happening right now.

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?Six-People-Found-Dead-Inside-Home-in-Gat=1&blockID=84898&feedID=1198

Now a 12 year old and a 7 year old are dead. How awful.

 
Comment by dc_renter
2008-10-06 20:37:18

Not to minimize the tragedy but anybody who is so focused on money that they would slaughter their family and themselves over it just boggles my mind. How meaningful a life were they leading if all they cared about was money?

 
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