October 14, 2008

Bits Bucket For October 14, 2008

Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.




RSS feed | Trackback URI

417 Comments »

Comment by legal eagle
2008-10-14 04:55:06

Inflation.

Canned tuna. Target brand.

January 2008. 6 oz $0.52
October 2008. 5 oz $0.79.

Where’s the deflation?

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-10-14 05:02:09

Why isn’t it $3? Why isn’t gold over $3,000? Why are interest rates in single digits? How can the central banks cut rates?

Comment by James
2008-10-14 05:45:14

The M3 numbers are going up recently. I haven’t seen anything on M0 or Mprime.

I wonder how much monitization the treasury is planning to do.

Also, the bailout dollars going to recapitalize banks. I can’t see how it is going to work for the economy. We already have plenty of debt. The banks are going to offer more debt? Not going to work.

I see at as they will make some bad loans and get in trouble faster, much faster or the money will act as insurance for investors/deposits.

Was wondering, since the ECB had made such large moves that it was best for us to stall and see if capital fled the Euro.

Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-10-14 05:59:26

I think they are trying to grease the wheels of the behind the scenes lending that has frozen up. Short term, overnight, bank to bank lending and corporate short term debt. Everyone with cash (and even Gold) is hording it and not lending it for fear of not getting it back, never mind the return. When they do lend, they want very high interest rates to compensate for the perceived risk in lending it out. It is this market that has taken the biggest hit (so far) and causing the lockup that, I think, is at the heart of what they are trying to “fix” and stop it from trickling down and being the final nail in the economic coffin we are rapidly descending into.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 06:13:28

I can go to any ATM anywhere, and withdraw cash from my checking account. I can also go to any bank branch of the thousands of them in California, and demand my cash and they’ll give it to me.

Not so with physical precious metals…

I talked for 30 minutes yesterday with a Bullion Brahmin that has a retail store in L.A., and he told me that the supply chain on the wholesale level has quite simply stopped. He had nothing for sale to the public yesterday, as he can’t replace inventory.

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-10-14 06:35:18

Maybe we’ll be lucky and the central banks will start flooding the market with gold too (only kidding). I think we exchanged posts last week about the conundrum the dealer is in. I accept what you say as being completely accurate, but I am surprised he has no Gold for sale at any price as that seems to be a broken market - and maybe that is your point. Can’t I pry a few rands out of him for $1,000 a piece? Is there an accurate chart/reference/source for physical gold for immediate delivery out on the web?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 06:51:33

I think the rather sudden squeeze on physical Gold happened on account of probably either China or Russia or a Gulf State looking for an easy way out of some of their Dollar reserves, and there isn’t a much better, cleaner way to do it than precious metals, the only problem being there is just so much of it above ground.

Bullion dealers are Goldbugs x 10, and know the score as well as I do, that to be able to get a seat for the proceedings coming shortly, you need to have ducats, and having waited decades for the chance at the dance, it would be highly foolish to bail out people, by selling them your inventory right now.

 
Comment by Lucy
2008-10-14 06:55:05

Here in Asia, gold shops are full of gold and you can buy as much as you want. Coins are not popular but ingots, bars and chains are readily available at spot +$20 or $30. Shops are no busier than usual.

 
Comment by yensoy
2008-10-14 07:21:39

Where in Asia, Lucy?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 07:24:37

Here’s the situation in the stateside arena…

Apparently the U.S. Mint has been so severely jerking around it’s 13 master wholesale dealers lately with failed deliveries of metal promised months ago, vague promises of more metal and more weirdness, combined with the wholesale dealers having sold forward the metal, based upon a delivery system that has been in place since 1986, so those wholesale dealers have had to scramble to cover from sources other than our government, this happening as the mint announces it isn’t going to make anything but 1/10th oz Gold eagles anymore.

My Bullion Brahmin friend said for a few days last week, he could find 1 oz Gold CML’s on the wholesale market, but that window too has closed.

 
Comment by GH
2008-10-14 07:32:59

Interestingly, the ebay gold and silver market is well above spot, with 100oz silver selling at $1550 and Gold $50 eagles at $1000.

I suspect there is an effort here to stop folks like me dumping cash into metals right now, while major US banks unload their options in gold at a profit.

The market is definitely not “FREE” right now here in the US in many respects, and I suspect most of us go about our lives and jobs without realizing just how bad things really are.

 
Comment by lucy
2008-10-14 07:58:07

Yensoy - Hong Kong. But I travel quite a bit, it seems the same in Singapore, Taiwan and China.

 
Comment by lucy
2008-10-14 08:04:46

“I suspect there is an effort here to stop folks like me dumping cash into metals right now”

I suspect that rather than yet another conspiracy, its more likely that the lack of short-term bank financing we hear so much about is disrupting the gold supply chain as well.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 08:12:06

It’s a combination of things…

The mines run on credit, just like everything else, and they can’t keep going with credit froze up, so the initial source of metal is going nowhere fast, sitting contently in the bowels below, unavailable for comment.

Banks have no idea which other banks are now the Red Queen, to be avoided at all costs, so as a consequence, every bank is now the Red Queen.

The shortages of metal are all too real in Austria, Germany and elsewhere. There’s no conspiracy.

 
Comment by InMontana
2008-10-14 08:23:53

i can find halves, quarters etc here with high premiums. Should one buy when this gold dump is going on?

 
Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 08:37:04

I am not in Asia but I know that shortages have been reported in Hong Kong, Australia and Singapore. Vietnam has banned import of gold, so apparently there is demand in Asia. Indian demand is off the chart and there are shortages there. All this information is available through Google.

On a side note the holidays are coming and you can buy 22k jewelry. The markup is higher than bullion but better than 14k, and unlike 14k the high purity jewely has resale value. I just bought some for gifts.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 09:04:16

The fact of the matter is, all Gold is salable no matter the purity.

Do you wonder what happens to the scrap Gold those pawnshops, or annoying tv commercials buy?

When you have enough of this, that and whatever of various fineness (9k, 10k, 14k, 16k, 18k, 22k, etc.) you melt it in a crucible and let it cook for awhile, homogenizing the mixture to it’s true purity, and then you pour what is called a ‘Dore Bar’, let it cool, spend $25 to get a fire assay done of a gram(you get it back after assay) or 2 of it, and the assay will be precisely what the overall Karat of the ingot is, and easily salable based upon that assay.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-10-14 09:27:06

According to recent articles on kitco, Indian demand is tightening. According to the quotes, those people are waiting for prices to come down before buying more and aren’t buying during this holy season like they normally do.

Just a data point.

 
Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:06:20

my impression from many recent articles is that in Europe there is no problem getting gold bars; don’t know about coins etc., I think they are less popular over here. Papers do report a huge increase in demand for gold bars in Germany, Austria and some other countries though.

 
Comment by newt
2008-10-14 10:19:43

I’m no expert, but I wonder, if gold is supposedly going to shoot through the roof soon, why the “Bullion Brahmins” of the world rush to sell what they have now. Why don’t they horde all their stash, until the expected crash of all the currencies takes place and gold is $5,000 or more an oz?

 
Comment by newt
2008-10-14 10:23:18

oh, my. hoard.

 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-14 10:51:15

Aladinsane,

“I talked for 30 minutes yesterday with a Bullion Brahmin that has a retail store in L.A., and he told me that the supply chain on the wholesale level has quite simply stopped. He had nothing for sale to the public yesterday, as he can’t replace inventory.”

Yeah, talked to an old-shool coin guy here. Said you have to pay up front on today’s price + 1 or 2% (gold eagles and maples), then you get the physical delivery “when you get it.” One, two or three weeks has been the delay as of late, but you get it at the spot price you paid. He thinks gold’s going to bust out right after the elections.

DOC

 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-14 11:06:32

Aladinsane,

Fun story,

“When you have enough of this, that and whatever of various fineness (9k, 10k, 14k, 16k, 18k, 22k, etc.) you melt it in a crucible and let it cook for awhile, homogenizing the mixture to it’s true purity, and then you pour what is called a ‘Dore Bar’”

Jewelry store owner I rub elbows with here bought his store from his fiance’s Father back in the seventies. Said there was a bunch of coffee cans in the back shop FULL of decades worth of “Bench Sweeps” which is an amalgum of gold filings (dust and tiny pieces) of 10, 14, 18k gold mixed in with buffs, polishing wheels, etc. Also, he rolled up the carpet that was under the bench that was loaded with the stuff. Sent it all to Stuller on the east coast.

Netted him a clean 7 grand, which was a respectable chunk of cash back then. Paid cash for a brand new Camaro. Never saw the guy so giddy.

I’ll bet jewelers really watch there bench sweeps now. Crap, every time you run a file across a ring you’ve gotta wrap you head around the fact “there’s another fifty cents or so” in the catch tray…LOL

DOC

 
Comment by Shizo
2008-10-14 11:54:07

Wait time for silver here (Cd’A, ID - next to Silver Valley) is 12+ weeks and $3 over spot. ouch. Hecla, CDE, Sunhine, etc are all here… no silver to be found at this source for any price, they just don’t have any.

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 12:10:14

Clearly there is a mania forming in the coin market. There is no shortage of gold per se (bars), but there is a shortage of coins at the dealers level.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 12:17:28

It’s Mad, Max.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 13:18:22

I just got off the phone with a Bullion Brahmin…

He told me he paid $5.50 over the spot price of $10.95, for a few thousand Silver 1 oz Eagles.

He paid a tad over 50% the spot price, on a Wholesale basis!

 
 
 
Comment by tutto incognito
2008-10-14 09:16:23

Why isn’t GOLD at 3,000.

If things are so bad for everything, why isn’t gold at 600? Or even 500?

Lets not forget, it was less than 300, what, 7-8 years ago?

This is my amateur thinking. There needs to be a final poo-poo-hitting-the-fan period during which everything will be chaotic and gold would be cheap. It will be dragged down simply. And then, nasty monetizing of the debt. So, is this point of no return happening NOW?
Has the average person capitulated? If it is, then we should be buying gold with both hands (even at a premium) and being very afraid. I have a fantasy that maybe I would be able to buy it in the 700 or even 600 range. But this could remain a fantasy.

Gold is supposed to buy a fine set of clothes, but which ones? Chinese made or italian made? Because to answer your question - those italian clothes sell for over 3,000 - so gold is already there, some people just do not know it. It is a matter of time simply. Gold seems to gyrate in 30-year (or so) cycles, for those that have the patience. I think those cycles are beyond the decision making of any administration.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-10-14 09:31:50

Why isn’t it $3? Who says it won’t be by the time they are done.

Why isn’t gold over $3,000? Probably hedge fund redemptions

Why are interest rates in single digits? To encourage inflation and punish savers.

How can the central banks cut rates? Why not? They can try whatever they want: if it leads us all off a cliff, they’ll just go “oops!” and walk away with their loot while we’re left wheeling around carts full of dollars.

Not saying that inflation is a lock, but it IS what the Powers That Be want more than anything, and I fully believe that they are willing to destroy us via hyperinflation if it means they get to squeeze a bit more blood from the stone.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:11:22

I think inflation is a sure bet unless the whole system blows up now (within a few weeks). And if the whole system blows up, the dollar or euro value of Gold is totally irrelevant anyway. A complete system crash could happen, but the chances of runaway inflation are far bigger IMHO, especially in Europe. All the EU governments want to print themselves out of this mess and help their corporate buddies, no matter what the consequences for society. The euro stability pact is toast, and the euro will be toast very soon as well.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by FLDude64
2008-10-14 17:59:39

This gold dealer has a plausible explanation for why gold hasn’t shot to the moon:

http://tinyurl.com/4po4tv

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:04:05

“Where’s the deflation?”

Cars, houses, mortorcycles, boats.

Wages.

Resturants are hurting, Starbucks is closing stores.

Tax receipts are down for counties, cities, states, countries.

Banks are taking money are of circulation instead of putting money into circulation.

Credit lines are being withdrawn or reduced everywhere.

World trade is shrinking.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:06:49

are of circulation = out of circulation

 
Comment by Bad Chile
2008-10-14 05:14:26

I’ve already scored one guitar that normally sells (street price) at $499 for $178 new out the door. I’ve got my eye on a few other used guitars; unfortunately just like real estate the sellers of used guitars just haven’t got the message yet and are pricing their used gear at the same price that a few stores trying to pay bills are pricing new guitars.

Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-10-14 05:30:34

You can buy a new pickup today for thousands less than a used one on Craigslist. $12,000 for a new V6 4×2 is totally do-able.

FWIW, I think now is a great time to buy new because, 1) today’s oversupply will give way to normalized inventory once production is slashed, and 2) the coming consolidation in dealerships will also change the balance, which today is currently in favor of buyers.

Fewer dealers and vehicles will indeed put a floor under prices, so if you’re looking for a ten-year ride, now might be the time.

I checked on a Ford dealer that I heard went belly-up a couple months ago — when I called, the receptionist of the company that bought them told me they were also going out of business at the end of the month.

FYI, I have no skin in the game — I sold my websites a couple months ago, and am glad I got out while there was still value in them.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-14 05:33:50

I’ll be interested to see what happens in the used instrument department myself, though I’m mostly out of the game these days.

Vintage instruments (I’ve watched and owned Vox, Guild, Fender, and Rickenbacker in the past) took a steep run-up in prices over the past decade, and I have no doubt that HELOC money and paper wealth had a role in that.

As you say, it seems like prices have been somewhat sticky. I’ve seen more deals in the lower end and mid-grade stuff than in boutique brands or the higher end of the vintage market.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 06:01:38

ET and Chile,

I’m watching alot of PRS hitting craigslist in the past few months. Much of it is still overpriced and the few desperate cash raising deals disappear rapidly. I won’t nor have I ever paid shop prices and craiglist has always been the home of equipment swapping gigging musicians. I’m still waiting for a covetous collector type (you know… the guys who can’t play but hold “fine” instruments in high regard) to liquidate who can’t make another mortgage payment and needs rent money. This has ocurred in Vegas recently.

 
Comment by nycjoe
2008-10-14 06:47:27

Funny, this goes for pool cues, too. Seen slight slippage in prices but not from the top makers. Mediocre players lock them up in wall cases and take them out to admire every few months, I suppose. This sub-mediocrity takes his out to actually butcher a few balls now and then. But the cues in the $1500-$2000 range, not seeing much change there, if any. Like gold, to some. But a tad less portable!

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-14 07:04:15

Ex, once the “covetous collector types” are feeling the pinch, I think you’ll see some deals. Craigslist can be a good source for those transactions, too, when the covetous collector type needs cash and doesn’t want to deal with eBay or consignment.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-14 07:57:01

Cars, houses, mortorcycles, boats.

Depends on the car. Near new Minis fetch more than brand new ones, due to the lack of new inventory. Expect to wait 3-4 months for a new Mini Cooper, even more for a Clubman.

American cars? Yeah, they can’t give those away.

 
Comment by laughing boy
2008-10-14 08:19:46

“American cars? Yeah, they can’t give those away.”

I heard they do… if you buy a house.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-14 09:29:40

‘mortorcycles, boats’

I want one of each of those, a little motorcycle so I can drive my little girly self in a sedate and safe fashion along the coast next summer, and a little sail-boat, too.
I am expecting some great deals when it’s time for Christmas shopping and people need the money.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 09:55:15

I’m seeing quite a few Hardly Ablesons without their overweigh badass wannabe owners on them on the side of the road with “fer sayle” signs on them.

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-10-14 10:49:58

RE: I’m seeing quite a few Hardly Ablesons without their overweigh badass wannabe owners on them on the side of the road with “fer sayle” signs on them.

Yup Exeter…there’s more than a few mid-life crisis types who wanted aboard the “Woo-hoo, look at me-I’m a weekend warrior Biker BadAss Express” and did the lemming thing by goin’ out and purchasing machines with (st)ealership mark-up’s of up to $5k over and above MSRP.

At one point the whole HD phenomenon took on the tone of the housing bubble with idiots bidding against each other for particular models.

And ironically, not only were these morons and their money soon parted; but they also succeeded in rendering the one time biker “cool factor” into a ridiculous “chumpster” brigade of fat fools all dressed up like they’re goin’ to a daily Halloween party, as evidenced by your comments.

And as a long time HD rider, it’s been truly disgusting to watch.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 10:52:12

“a little motorcycle so I can drive my little girly self in a sedate and safe fashion along the coast next summer”

I’m sure you’ll be safe, it’s the elderly driver who should’ve had their license taken away years ago who’ll guarantee an unsafe environment. Kind of like my late Uncle Enzo, RIP. A more dangerous driver would be hard to find. He was a small Italian man with a big temper. He’d wave his fist and accelerate furiously, while steering his behemoth wildly between two lanes, mad at everyone apparently. It’s a wonder he didn’t kill someone. He had his share of accidents. Of course, according to Uncle Enzo, they were never his fault. Kind of like when I saw him going the wrong way in the Rite Aid parking lot, then madly honking and shaking his fist at a young driver. Shortly thereafter, he showed me a club he carried “so people knew he meant business”. He was in his mid 80’s at the time. Unbelievable.

That said, I’d like a motorcycle too. :)

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-10-14 10:54:07

RE: a little motorcycle so I can drive my little girly self in a sedate and safe fashion along the coast next summer,

My imagination is making me short of breath…

 
 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-10-14 08:02:24

I’ve found deals on music instruments (best one yet was pro level Yamaha tenor sax for $150, with a Brillhart mouthpiece which is worth $80+ alone). But none of them were distressed sales. I’ve been watching for a Roland eDrum kit, with no luck. I also scored a high level but beat up Vibraphone for dirt cheap, I’ve got the few parts to fix it on order. I’ve seen people posting these “wanted to buy guitars” ads, and I figure it’s like the “We buy houses” folks. I posted a “I buy horns” post to see if I could score a nice intermediate Alto (tenor for the brits) horn or Euphonium, or pro level alto or student level soprano sax… or maybe a Bach Strad or Yamaha Xeon for $300. zero luck. It’s still early though, I guess. And on the flip side, I’ve had horrible luck selling my segway and bits of scuba equipment that I upgraded from. What goes around comes around I guess!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Bad Chile
2008-10-14 10:31:57

I just scored a nice American made Telecaster off eBay from a “Medical Distressed Sale” using Buy It Now. While not a smoking deal (about 20% off the normal high bid), it was made smoking hot by the addition of 30% cashback through the Cashback program (not named, but if you look for a Live Cashback program, you’ll know what I mean).

So I now have two guitars showing up this week. Need to dump one existing guitar before the used prices crater.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 11:54:19

I’ve been on the verge of learning how to play the guitar for 5 years now…

 
Comment by Walnuts
2008-10-14 14:07:53

“I’ve been on the verge of learning how to play the guitar for 5 years now…”

That’s it? I’m much further along in my development. I’ve been planning on learning how to play for 15 years.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 10:37:33

I’ve been looking for used guitars, and would like an older Gibson Les Paul, and would settle for an old Telecaster, but sellers are delusional around here. I also dream of stumbling across an old Martin acoustic at a garage sale priced at $50 because the current owner has no idea what it is. It’s fun to dream!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-14 11:11:57

‘I also dream of stumbling across an old Martin acoustic at a garage sale priced at $50 because the current owner has no idea what it is. It’s fun to dream!’

You might, if the garage sales down in Centralia (or is it Chehalis?) are as good as the Olympia ones are. I grew up in Utarr and I used to enjoy going to antique stores up in Salt Lake, or Heber, or the little old towns down south. Well, the average estate sale and many of the plain old garage sales out here have as much good stuff as the antique shoppes I used to frequent, and for incredibly paltry sums.
I’ve walked up and bought a box of 100- year- old leather bound books for a buck or two, done this more than once in fact–this would be the whole box, not just one book– got a walnut chifferobe for a few bucks, etc etc…why, just last week down the road I got a really beautiful set of old jewelry that I happen to be wearing this very minute, it was her great-grandma’s, brass with what I think are jet stones; a collar, earrings and bracelet. And what did I pay for what was probably her great-grandma’s most-prized jewelry set? 25 cents. It was entirely tarnished, so I just carefully cleaned it. Easy.

On a side note, what sort of idjit sells her great-grandma’s jewelry? And what sort of super-idjit sells it for TWENTY-FIVE tiny little pennies?!

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 16:34:37

I dropped a girlfriend once after we discovered that her tastes in costume jewelry matched my grandmothers, and she started working granny for gifts. I’d like to think it was the second factor that decided, but it was probably the first ;)

 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 16:43:40

LP’s, tele’s and strats were great….. until PRS. If you haven’t played one I highly suggest you do before laying down $$$ for an old school ax. Granted the strat tone has made hundreds or thousands of songs famous, you won’t understand the playability of an American PRS until you try it.

 
 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-10-14 06:02:18

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:04:05
“Where’s the deflation?”

Cars, houses, mortorcycles, boats.
Wages.
Resturants are hurting, Starbucks is closing stores.
Tax receipts are down for counties, cities, states, countries.
Banks are taking money are of circulation instead of putting money into circulation.
Credit lines are being withdrawn or reduced everywhere.
World trade is shrinking.

True. I see a most of what you say with my own eyes. Add rentals to the list.
But combotechie, Isn’t a hyper-inflation a strong possibility in the future with the money being printed?
I’ve followed your opinions closely,as I have the prof’s and would appreciate your answer.
-

Comment by Muir
2008-10-14 06:16:12

As a follow up, with these low interest rates, wouldn’t it make sense to purchase now at Historical low interest rates before inflation sets in, even if prices are set to fall further?
Assuming inflation down the line, doesn’t it make sense to saddle the bank with a 6% interest rate now and laugh when rate hits 16% in 2 years?
I do not care how many people ridicule the idea, I am interested in a logical answer.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 06:28:44

You mean buy a house?

Because interest rates are fickle, prices are forever. I’d rather wait a year to buy a $100K house at 16% interest than to buy a $185K house at 6% interest now. It works out to be less money over all. If I pay off additional principal, the interest matters even less. Or, with a lower monthly payment, I coul invest the difference in CD’s at 12%(?).
And when the mortgage rates drop back from 16% to, say, 10%, I can always refinance, and make out like a real bandit.

[I don't know for sure; i'm just making those numbers up, but that's the general reason.]

 
Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 06:31:38

Or course, on the other hand, there is an inflation problem. If house prices are 25% less, but your money is worth 30% less, you don’t gain anything by waiting. It’s messy. Maybe it comes down to the specific house. If it’s a good house, better to go for it. If it’s a McCrapBox, well…

 
Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2008-10-14 06:50:04

oxide, here is the thing with hyperinflation… there is no lending. Therefore, the relative price of ALL goods/services adjusts accordingly. Imagine if all houses had to be paid for with cash (they would be at 10% of today’s prices). The same will be true during hyperinflation. If a house costs 100 gold coins today, it will cost 10 gold coins during hyperinflation. (And a gold coin would be worth trillions of dollars in a hyperinflation).

Things that are not purchased with debt will go up in value relative to things purchased with debt. The only way it makes sense to “borrow” at today’s cheap rates is if you already own your house and want to “liberate equity” at today’s prices to invest in something else (say food, guns, gold) that will go up in value relative to housing and at a faster rate than your interest. You just don’t want to end up in a “liquidity trap”.

Is it possible to short long-term treasuries? They “should” be going up; however, with federal reserve manipulation it may be WAY TO RISKY.

 
Comment by reuven
2008-10-14 08:17:55

In 1984, mortgage interest rates were at 10%! But houses on Long Island where I was living at the time were 1.5x -2x income, and ordinary people could afford them without crazy mortgages, lying about income, hoping for some magic equity fairy to wave her magic wand, etc.

So I would never base the decision to buy a house on current interest rates! If rates go up, house prices go down.

 
Comment by yogurt
2008-10-14 11:45:55

If house prices are 25% less, but your money is worth 30% less, you don’t gain anything by waiting.

If you’re saving money to buy a house, and house prices are 25% less, your money is worth 25% more.

Duh.

 
Comment by yogurt
2008-10-14 11:47:17

Sorry, it’s really worth 33% more.

1/.75 = 1.33

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 12:21:45

VirginiaTechDan is the one who gets it - there is no lending during hyperinflation, for obvious reasons. And leveraged assets such as RE suffer the most.

I’ve lived through the hyperinflation of the early 90’s in Russia - banking was practically dead. If hyperinflation hits, expect housing prices getting splattered all over the floor. People are going to be more concerned with getting food on table and heating their homes with their shrinking paychecks than buying spec houses and condos.

 
Comment by NYchk
2008-10-14 20:16:15

Funny, I’ve lived through the hyperinflation of the early 90’s in Russia too, but I remember it differently.

Real estate - along with other real assets - was the best bet to preserve capital. Those who were able to borrow and buy real assets made out like bandits.

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-15 00:28:26

NYchk,
Real estate - along with other real assets - was the best bet to preserve capital.

Yes, but RE prices stayed very low until the mortgage market started developing in the early 2002 - only after the inflation was tamed to reasonable levels. Immediately after the fall 1998 default, RE prices collapsed, along with the ruble.

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 06:20:35

“Isn’t hyper-infaltion a strong possibility in the future with the money being printed?”

Who knows? The future isn’t promised to anyone. The goal now is to get through the present.

At present it seems trillions of dollars are destined to disappear and nobody knows which dollars these are.

If your dollars disappear then you are hosed. If your dollars don’t disappear then you get to benifit from the dollar scarcity caused by the dollars that do disappear.

This doesn’t entirely answer your question because I have no answer to your question and I’m not convinced anyone else does either.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 06:29:22

King,

If you ran out of cans of tuna, you’d need to go fishing to be able to replenish said cans.

If you ran out of Dollars, you’d need to go printing to be able to replenish said rectangles.

So a perceived shortage of an item easily replicated, is your financial game plan, in essence.

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 06:46:21

If I ran out of cans of tuna I would find something else to eat. If I ran out of dollars then I would remain hungry.

 
Comment by nycjoe
2008-10-14 06:52:43

Guess that’s the big question … scarcity of dollars or a glut? I was speaking to a trader Sunday who was sure we’ll be seeing 2K gold in the not-too-distant future. But if you sock your nest egg into that (if the gold can be found, I guess) how hosed are you if it falls back to $500-$600? Ugh.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-10-14 06:55:30

Cambo, no one can see the future, but most people can read a book. And you don’t have to have read BB’s book (only heard about it) to know that significant inflation in the medium-term is at least a moderate-probability event as long as he is at the helm.

 
Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2008-10-14 07:13:38

Combotechie,
If I ran out dollars I would find something else to trade for food. I am sorry, but aladinsane is right on about your game plan.

I would just like to point out that “supposed” trillions of dollars destroyed (and then “created”) by the recent stock market movements do not affect the money supply. The money still exists, it just shifts to other areas and causes price increases in those areas equal in size to the price decrease in stocks.

Hoarded money causes the price of money to increase (without changing the money supply), but when that hoarding stops you can expect massive inflation.

Right now there is a huge flight to safety creating a “dollar bubble” that is irrational in light of the fundamentals (potentially unlimited supply and exponential growth in government debt).

Ride the dollar bubble while you can, just don’t be caught holding the bag when it falls off a cliff like those who rode the housing bubble.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-10-14 08:13:07

“supposed” trillions of dollars destroyed (and then “created”) by the recent stock market movements do not affect the money supply. The money still exists”

does this include the individual 401K, IRA, and mutual fund losses?

i dont see how they can get that money back any time soon.

 
Comment by Muir
2008-10-14 08:27:44

VirginiaTechDan
“Ride the dollar bubble while you can, just don’t be caught holding the bag when it falls off a cliff like those who rode the housing bubble.”
And go in what direction?
Is it totally insane to buy a house with a mortgage (not cash)
predicting that this future debt will be in dollars which are worth less?
I read your previous response (which I appreciated) 6 times.
This part I did not get: “Things that are not purchased with debt will go up in value relative to things purchased with debt.”
Maybe that is why I am asking what may seem to you to be a dumb question.
To paraphrase the Prof “inferior minds want to know.”

I would not have asked this question 4 months ago.
-

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 08:33:44

Muir,

The only way to win in hyper-inflation is to have your assets in a desirable accepted vehicle other than U.S. Dollars.

I expect to buy properties here and overseas for perhaps 5% of current prices, based upon my constant value not changing in a world bent on change.

 
Comment by M Gal
2008-10-14 10:52:35

China and Japan don’t have to print money to buy Treasuries. They have huge foreign exchange holdings, mostly in $$$, due to our trade deficits with them.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 10:57:15

If the gold bugs are right, and people are going to need gold in order to buy food, then this whole country will be in a state of anarchy. At such time, those with gold would find themselves under attack. Seriously, it would be easier to get what you needed with a gun.

 
Comment by Bill in Maryland
2008-10-14 17:37:42

I kind of agree. I’ll take my chances in Los Angeles (home of the Rodney King riots). Because you can get anything for any price. If things are constant another 20 years and then go south, I’ll be 69 and perhaps much weaker than now. I would not be able to defend myself like I can now. So I’d take my chances to depend on cops.

For now, I know where I can buy and sell gold for cash within 5 minutes of setting foot in that business. I know where I can get my “lust” for certain victimless crimes satisfied and be covered. Everything cash. Everything in LA. Maybe I should move to Mexico City. Population in the tens of millions. You can exercise all your victimless crime freedoms there. I love Mexico, anyway, but not their illegal aliens in the US.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 20:03:42

What is an example of a victimless crime?

How can you tell for sure whether there is a victim?

 
 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-10-14 06:22:19

There is no hyper inflation because the FED has not “printed” any money yet. The Japs & Chineese are still buying our debt/ Hyper inflation will hit when no one is buying our debt and the only alternative is to actually print money to cover the cost of government. Sit back this will happen but not immediately…..the world wants this stabalized so that they can get out from under our crroked thumb….then they will dump us!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2008-10-14 07:46:13

If foreign banks/governments print money to buy treasuries and dollars then isn’t the result the same.

We have allowed “unlimited” dollars to provide liquidity to foreign banks… if those banks (and their governments) start printing up collateral that we then lend (print money) against then the result is still dollar inflationary.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-14 07:50:48

There is no hyperinflation because there is not dramatic increase in wages. Boeing and its machinist are still talking about 3% raises. 3% does not fill a wheelbarrow full of money.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 08:05:27

Wages didn’t go up in Mexico when they had their bout with hyper-inflation, which was only resolved with the issuance of new money in the guise of the Nuevo Peso, but the damage was already done and millions of Mexicans saw their only chance @ surviving, was to come up here working whatever job they could find, and send money back home. 1 wage here could keep 4 or 5 people fed down under.

Those remittances are down 12%, which means a lot of those Mexicans are headed home, because there’s no work for them here anymore.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-14 08:59:18

Coincidently, the Mexican Peso has dropped 12% in the past month and is now $12.4 Peso = $1USD.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-10-14 09:41:34

Exactly.

There is nothing preventing TPTB from hyperinflating and wiping out our standards of living in a few months. What do they care? They have gold, guns, off-shore property, etc. If the commoners starve, well, that’s not their problem, and if their $100 million in worth becomes effectively $10 million, it doesn’t matter to them, while the rest of us would be eating out of the trash if our buying power dropped by 90% and costs remained fixed.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:35:59

Details…details…

 
 
Comment by SUGuy
2008-10-14 06:05:48

It is foolish to mistake that companies will increase prices because the raw material cost is going up. In our organization we have increased prices just because the consumer is willing to pay a higher price. We are living in a climate where consumers accept price increases without putting up any resistance. If you own a business whose products or services are in demand it’s a great time to make easy money by raising prices.

Comment by sfrenter
2008-10-14 11:55:27

Consumers have only been able to pay increased prices because they have been going into debt.

I read an interesting article about this (sorry, no link, can’t remember who or where), about how hyper-consumerism has reached it’s demise:

Wages have been stagnant but people have kept on buying because

1. Women entered the work force (and now most families need 2 incomes to stay afloat)

2. Credit cards became mainstream (and now everyone is at least 1 month behind)

3. Folks are retiring later.

The average American has no more money to spend. We can’t possibly work any more hours, credit cards are maxed out, and unless child labor is legalized, hyper consumerism is dead.

It’s about time.

Comment by SUGuy
2008-10-14 14:03:52

I agree. You can never under estimate the stupidity of the consumer. As long as man is on this planet companies will find new creative ways to take money away from the consumer. Even in places like NYC where you have many smart consumers. They still get screwed by most of the retailers. Just the way of the world. I guess.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Xenos
2008-10-14 07:15:02

My one-pound box of (whole grain) pasta now has 13.35 ounces. The Half-gallon box of Breyers’ Ice cream only has 1.5 quarts of ice cream.

The down-market brands are not yet skimping on the sizes.

Comment by shibbo
2008-10-14 07:31:13

I’ve noticed that at Costco. Boxes of cereal didn’t get more expensive, the boxes just got smaller. And they used to sell really large jugs of maple syrup. And they used to be cheaper than Trader Joe’s. But last month I bought syrup at both Trader Joe’s and Costco. When I compared I realized that now Trader Joe’s syrup is larger than Costco’s. And the prices were comparible.

 
 
Comment by shibbo
2008-10-14 07:25:05

The biggest deflation experience I’ve had is switching supermarkets. I only go to the regular chain supermarkets when there’s nothing else around. For most shopping I go to Winco or FoodMax. Winco is awsome. $1.70 for a dozen extra large eggs. I think it was $2.50 for a gallon of milk last I checked. (Milk costs around $4 at other supermarkets.) And they have the largest bulk food section I’ve ever seen. I also look at the Grocery Outlet when I get a chance.

Comment by GH
2008-10-14 07:37:21

I noticed many prices had been reduced at Costco last week, after a year of substantial price raises.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:49:52

Inflation is an increase in the general price level, which an increase in the price of tuna is not. Tuna price changes are confounded by myriad economic factors in the tuna fishery, including the effect of higher fuel prices on the cost of catching tunas, downsizing of the industry eliminating scale economies, and concerns about scarcity of some tuna stocks.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 08:21:31

What about a can of fish heads, rolly polly fish heads?

Comment by Al
2008-10-14 09:52:59
(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by calex
2008-10-14 09:22:49

Inflation in the needs, deflation in the wants…For now.

Look what happen to Pepsico today, people slowed down their buying of Pepsico products and they announced layoffs. They have brought their prices up too high. They will eventually have to lower them back down. I look at it like the majority of people in the US are living paycheck to paycheck. They are the main buyers and the only thing that will help them at this point is a raise. Only a principle rightdown, or an actual raise is going to help.

My 4 count reeces peanut butter cup monitor.
Last year at the local 7-eleven was .95 cents.
This year they cost 1.49. At 1.49 the box has never been low. I know that I stopped buying them, and I am not worried about money right now.

I did notice the Tuna cans like you. I also think they are putting more water in the can since you almost have to use 2 cans to make one sandwich today.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 11:03:40

“My 4 count reeces peanut butter cup monitor.
Last year at the local 7-eleven was .95 cents.
This year they cost 1.49. At 1.49 the box has never been low. I know that I stopped buying them, and I am not worried about money right now.”

Yes, it’s true. Occasionally, I used to buy 8 ounce Hershey’s bars at Walgreen’s for $1.99. Now, they are 6.5 ounces @ $2.29. That doesn’t sound like a bad price either, except I saw through their shenanigans, and stopped buying them. The fact that they are not so great for my health DID weigh in, but their price hike was the catalyst. I suspect these items will indeed come back down in price.

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:41:12

I invested in some tasty rye bread and cheese earlier this week. The value has skyrocketed over the course of the morning, I am starving now. My sandwich is beating the Dow! Now I want a peanut butter cup…

 
 
 
Comment by legal eagle
2008-10-14 05:07:39

At that rate it won’t be long before a can of tuna is $4.00.

Comment by Blue Skye
2008-10-14 05:49:20

Tuna caught, canned and shipped while gas was on the rise. All these costs are now on the decline. Eat your sandwich and watch.

Comment by cactus
2008-10-14 06:12:20

“All these costs are now on the decline. Eat your sandwich and watch.”

LONDON (AP) — Oil prices climbed above $84 a barrel on Tuesday on hopes the economic fallout from the financial crisis would be curbed by U.S. and European government pledges to pump capital into the banking sector.

No not if the worlds central banks can help it

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:51:57

Burst might not be over for oil bubble
By Mark Williams
ASSOCIATED PRESS

October 14, 2008

As oil prices zoomed toward an unheard of $147 a barrel this summer, it seemed every analyst prediction that oil would approach $200 was a self-fulfilling prophecy, until suddenly it was not.

Instead of $200, oil is now at $81.19 a barrel. Instead of going up, the United States has seen the greatest destruction in demand since the oil-shocked 1970s. Drivers have dramatically cut down on driving since November.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 20:06:03

“It’s just amazing that the market gets suckered into this,” said analyst Stephen Schork of the Schork Report, who called the idea of $150-a-barrel oil “an obscene number, a perverted, illogical number.”

Yesterday, Goldman Sachs, among those predicting $200-a-barrel oil, cut its year-end forecast of oil to $70 from $115 and lowered its price outlook for the end of 2009 to $107 per barrel from $125 to reflect weak global economy.

Goldman’s forecast really Suchs. Couldn’t they get the Treasury Secretary to put some kind of floor under oil prices as has been proposed for housing prices, in order to save them from embarrassment?

 
 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 09:46:19

Eat your sandwich and watch

Invest in a big jar of organic peanut butter. Tinned tuna is full of mercury anyway and is worth about .05 to me.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 08:14:40

Blue Skye — I think you are spot on. What we are seeing right now is the pass-through effect of yesterday’s high fuel prices on today’s tuna can prices. Look for deflating canned tuna prices going forward.

 
 
 
Comment by legal eagle
2008-10-14 05:11:49

I don’t eat out often and I’ve never bought a motorcycle. Utilities, taxes, food, gas. More expensive. Wages are flat.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:16:32

“Wages are flat.”

Tell that to the guy that lost a $30/hr job and now has a $10/hr job.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-14 05:36:56

GM closing two Midwest factories way ahead of initial plans. UAW jobs (and wages) leaving spells…wage D E F L A T I O N.

Tell me, if they can’t get another car/product line started what’s the possibility of these locales attracting new jobs that pay as much? I’m not arguing the viability of these towns or their residents - I’m sure they have lots of potential - but so did the rest of the Rust Belt.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 05:51:42

If they’d just shut down the Wall Street casino, people might have a chance, and so might the Rust Belt. It’s not about companies and the value of what they produce anymore, it’s about “management” and how they manage Wall Street’s “expectations”. Frig Wall Street. Frig it. I’ve got a great photo someone sent me, I think it is making the rounds on the internet, it has a shot of the front of the Stock Exchange draped with that American flag, and in the front is a handmade cardboard sign that says “Jump, you f*ckers”. That says it all for me.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by CA renter
2008-10-15 02:53:59

That was probably from the anti-bailout rally. Not seen in the MSM that I saw (rarely watch regular TV other than CNBC & Bloomberg, so can’t say for sure).

 
 
Comment by bobby c
2008-10-14 06:11:18

There is no deflation that is a myth. Are prices going down on non essentials, yes. Do we really need boats, cars, houses absolutely not. You can rent, you can take the bus, and not many people really need a boat unless you live on an island.

Most people do need electricity, food, shelter (rent, live with someone else) and clothing. Most of the absolute essentials in life are costing much more. That is inflation. We’ve all been blinded by the core inflation mentality where a computer goes down in value, and your food goes up in value so there is no inflation. Thats bullcrap.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 06:25:14

Even rents. I thought rents would decline here in the Tampa area. To be fair, there are some apartment complexes that are offering “deals”, but I’m not seeing the decline in rents that I would have hoped for by this time. I can say this as someone who is once again looking for new digs. Rents have fallen in the marginal and less desirable areas, as have housing prices. But not anywhere you’d want to live.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-10-14 06:46:13

do you think the rents can go down if the owners paid bubble prices for the buildings? Even some of the older ones were sold when the prices skyrocketed.

 
Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 07:08:09

On the other hand, I suppose the rise of rents relative to house payments would signal the return of affordable homes, if it is cheaper to buy than to rent. Assuming you can get a mortgage.

 
Comment by Muir
2008-10-14 07:35:48

Rents are falling in my side of Fl and in Central Fl.
As far as this question goes: “do you think the rents can go down if the owners paid bubble prices for the buildings?”
Answer:
What does that matter?
If they are underwater, they are underwater.
They’ll rent their units/houses and if need be stop paying the mortgage and HOA fees until they get foreclosed on.
The owners do not set the price for the rental, the lessees do.
The above is specially true when there is a glut of rentals.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-10-14 08:57:49

Muir, the reason i asked that question is because i saw alot of buying and building of apartments around here in bakersfield when the housing market started to tank. The investors i think, were trying to get ahead of the wave of people needing a place to live after they were forclosed upon. So thats why i was wondering how are they going to be able to offer lower rents when they paid bubble prices for these buildings?

Is that shoe dropping on the banks now? or is it one that will be dropping in the near future?

 
Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:22:13

agree with bobby c, in Europe the situation is similar. All necessities of life are rising at 8-15% a year (next year even more I guess, because all the money our local governments lost in the Iceland bust).

Rents in Netherlands have been rising at 1-1.5% yoy for some time now, but that is because this market is under complete government control (and heavily subsidised). In the small ‘free market’ rents keep going up at double digit rates even while homeprices are nearly stagnant now.
Even rents for homes from over 50 years ago, that have recouped their cost many times over already, are rising strongly.

Wages in Europe are rising more than in US probably, both in German and Netherlands (and some other countries) many workers - both government and industrial - will get 5-10%+ wage increases this year, plus sometimes big one-time bonuses etc. This only helps to push inflation further up.

 
Comment by Bill in Maryland
2008-10-14 17:46:05

Some of my colleages in contract engineering are so tight with money that they do not have cars, pack lunches, rent rooms for $500 per month, and earn $75 to $85 per hour.

This is the beauty of the portable lifestyle. All my siblings rent. Thank goodness! I have one in the health care profession who is open to a job anywhere on the west coast.

The most fascinating thing about this decade was how willing people have been to put down roots, anchor themselves to debt, and laugh and grin as they walk the path to serfdom.

Here’s one saver who refuses to be a victim in “the war against savers.” I will avoid capital gains taxes as long as the next president is in office (1 or 2 terms) and as long as Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, Charles Shumer, and Harry Reid are in Congress. I’d rather have a 99% loss of my stock value than pay one penny of capital gains to support their socialist engineering duds.

 
Comment by Bill in Maryland
2008-10-14 17:48:22

I’m waging a war against spenders.

 
 
 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-14 11:20:31

““Wages are flat.”

Tell that to the guy that lost a $30/hr job and now has a $10/hr job.”

Good point.

I was reading on “job burnout” and how these “experts” assert “raises don’t necessarily make you happier.”

Ok, fine. But what these momos faill to diclose is the negative psychological effect of NO raises for years, which is in reality “repeated pay cuts” due to inflation.

Dumbasses

DOC

 
 
 
Comment by legal eagle
2008-10-14 05:21:02

At $10 an hour he’s still paying more for everyday essentials.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:23:04

Not if he doesn’t have the money.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:25:43

He won’t be paying for anything if he doesn’t have the money.

Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 06:53:52

Not having money doesn’t bring down prices. There are billions of people in the world who have money now that didn’t have money before. They don’t want your toys but they will buy the food and fuel that you can’t buy.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by cactus
2008-10-14 07:02:01

Efficiencies in production bring down prices or imbalances in the economy like building too many homes.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by legal eagle
2008-10-14 05:27:16

When is ComEd going to lower my electric rates? When is People’s Energy going to cut gas delivery rates? When will it cost $2.00 a gallon for gas? When will my sales tax rate return below 10%? When will Target lower the price of tuna?

The cheap guitars is a supply demand issue, not a deflationary issue. Less people want to pay $500 for a guitar. They’re using the money instead on gas, food, energy, taxes.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 05:31:18

“They’re using the money instead on gas, food, energy, taxes.”

That’s because they don’t have enough money coming in for anything else.

 
Comment by Frank Hague
2008-10-14 05:33:10

There has been some deflation in Oil prices.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 06:05:34

Is this dope for real????? Oil has CRASHED my friend. $148 to $77 is a crash. The spiraling inventory of white and brown goods combined with a dwindling pool of buyers is a crash.

Get a grip.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 06:37:39

When gas peaked @ $148 a barrel, I was paying $4.89 a gallon, and now i’m paying $3.59 @ $84 a barrel.

The price per barrel has gone down over 50%, but the price I pay per gallon has only around 25%.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Frank Hague
2008-10-14 06:41:17

I think the more the economy contracts the more you will see the price of gasoline fall in line with the fall in line with the drops in Oil. It’s hard to see how with all of this wealth destruction we will have significant inflationary pressures in the near term.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-14 06:59:12

The refiners…doesn’t anyone ever think about the refiners?!

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-14 09:08:09

ALAD:

take out your state fed and local sale taxes (nyc) on that gallon then compare and it did drop 50%

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 09:14:36

I don’t pay any attention to it, as there’s nothing I can do about it.

I could just imagine trying to negotiate with a one-armed outdoor bandit, as I slide my plastic through it’s groove, “hey, I don’t want to pay state taxes today, ok?”

 
 
 
Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 07:01:01

Over what time frame? Oil today is higher than it was a year ago.

The bottom is in commodities, btw.

Comment by Blue Skye
2008-10-14 08:42:38

You are calling a bottom in commodities?

Happy days are here again!

LOL.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 09:26:25

“The bottom is in commodities, btw.”

And Ben Jones is belly dancer too. What happened to the $200/barrel we’re running out of oil charade? Thanks for the heads up though.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-10-14 11:01:27

Second day in row we have the prediction from Watcher that COMEX will be failing soon too. I am sure the Fed is working towards that goal as we speak…..

 
 
 
 
Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 06:42:00

Supply-demand is one driver of deflation of basic items, too. When people are so broke they switch to 50 lb bags of dry pinto beans instead of fancy-schmancy tuna in a can, tuna prices will fall.

Which reminds me - thanks to those who pointed me towards the Grocery Outlet. I found one near my hovel, and I am now the proud owner of a case of canned tomatoes and some lovely Mendocino wit bier! My food budget is now significantly smaller.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 07:37:24

Grocery Outlet is a tribute to food that never found it’s niche on the usual suspects chain supermarket shelf…

I bought 100 count boxes of Barrington Planters Reserve USDA Organic Black Tea bags, for $2.79 the other day.

They got a bit wordy on the packaging (if it’s Organic, you can get away with murder) and below the words Organic Black Tea, were the single words “Practical” “Ethical” “Responsible” & “Sustainable”

Ethical tea?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 07:59:56

I think they’re trying to sucker the consumer into thinking that they don’t play by the rules of capitalism and hence, “share” some moolah with the growers or some such cr@pola.

Oh well!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 11:13:07

Grocery Outlet buy of the week…

Bought 19.4 oz. bags of Bertolli Rigantoni Grande frozen pasta & sauce, imported from Italy, for just 99 Cents, with a best used by date of April 11, 2009.

Prepare it in a skillet with just a little olive oil.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 11:58:10

My dog LOVES Grocery Outlet. 14.5 ounce canned salmon for $1.49. He gets half a can per day with his meal. He is literally leaving his feet in anticipatory excitement as I walk towards him with the bowl. He’s 120 lbs, and his head is above mine as he leaps.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-10-14 14:31:06

“Grocery Outlet is a tribute to food that never found it’s niche on the usual suspects chain supermarket shelf…”

I have shopped at the Grocery Outlet in the north Phoenix/Glendale area for many years. While I have reduced my visits to the store to about once per month since moving further away, it is an economical and fascinating place to shop.

While it is obvious that things like the Piggly Wiggly creamsicles or the Pathmark frozen spinach were just getting close to their sell-by date and had to be unloaded, the backstories of other items are less clear. Are people frightened by Skippy peanut butter in a tube? Did the hot pink gardening tools just not catch on? The chili in mini cornbread bowls frozen appetizers were spicy and tasty, but were they just too pricey at regular retailers?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 17:46:32

Those shocking pink gardening tools were a little rakish for my taste.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-14 07:57:03

I think Guitar Hero will permanently lower the price of guitars as the under 18 crowd will stop buying real guitars.

Comment by InMontana
2008-10-14 08:37:40

Makes my old slacker-drafter-dodger boyfriend, who could play a real guitar!!! seem like a Guitar Hero now.

Comment by exeter
2008-10-14 09:08:19

Draft dodger? Cheney or Bush?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by cashedin05
2008-10-15 00:43:57

You need help.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 05:31:02

We have the bulls right where we want them, no?

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-14 05:32:47

Give ‘em all the rope they need…

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:39:58

The bulls will work for the bears over the next few years — especially highly-leveraged bulls…

Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:58:32

aren’t bears outlawed in the US by now? In most of Europe shorts and puts (for financials and many of their friends) are forbidden until at least end of the year; they are even considering lots of other far reaching rules as the short/put ban doesn’t seem to work.

We will hear more once the next stock market plunge starts.

 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-14 05:31:23

The pain comes to Chicago. The Trib ran this article yesterday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-upside-down-mortgage-monoct13,0,2329863.story

 
Comment by Little Al
2008-10-14 05:36:05

With gasoline prices spiking downwards, I believe a fair price for a gallon of regular unleaded ought to be $2.70 a gallon, but they have played this trick in the past. It takes them a year to get the price down and the public is smiling the whole time because they’re getting some sort of reduction.

Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 06:14:53

$2.74 at my local gas station this morning (central Ohio). If it’s at that price this afternoon, I’ll fill up.

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-10-14 06:26:13

FWIW - I watch what RBOB Gas is trading for on the market and add .70-.80 to that on a 10-14 day trailing price. It is definitely quicker to rise and slower to drop, but that spread and time lag is a very good indicator for my market in the semi-rural Northeast. Hopefully, we should be below $3.00 next week and around $2.80 by the end of next week. That said, Gas markets are VERY local.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 11:38:46

I’m paying March 2008 prices, while crude is at Sept 2008 levels. Something smells rancid.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 11:48:19

…crude is at Sept 2007 levels…

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 13:59:16

Prices have dropped way down low in my woods (Vancouver). Taxes at the pump for you?

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 05:40:46

Oct. 14 (Bloomberg) — Iceland’s benchmark stock index plunged 77 percent, the biggest decline on record, as trading resumed after a three-day suspension and the nationalization of the country’s largest banks.

Comment by Asparagus
2008-10-14 05:59:56

Call Venezuala.

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2008-10-14 06:05:53

“Send lawyers, guns, and money…the sh*t has hit the fan” - lyrics from a song I can’t remember.

Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-14 06:10:41

I went home with the waitress
The way I always do
How was I to know?
She was with the Russians too.

I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this.

I’m the innocent bystander
And somehow I got stuck
Between the rock and the hard place
And I’m down on my luck.

Now I’m hiding in Honduras
I’m a desperate man.

the rest you know.

Warren Zevon

 
 
Comment by Key Lime Toast
2008-10-14 06:49:52

Iceland - The canary in the coal mine.

Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 07:10:36

The nice thing about the US is its multi-temperate climate and vast natural resources. After a period of adjustment, if the dollar should crash, we’d be relatively o-k compared to smaller single climate resource poor countries that are heavily dependent on foreign sources of goods.

Comment by packman
2008-10-14 08:01:04

It’s not the environment most people are worried about here. Yes the U.S., as a geographic entity, will end up just fine. However a war (financial or military) that may include a wholesale political system change is generally not desirable, especially if the resulting entity is worse. The only way such a war would be good is if it resulted in a better system (e.g. like the U.S. revolutionary war and civil war), but I really don’t see that being very likely.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Jon
2008-10-14 08:22:02

The problem is with that “period of adjustment”. Should be somewhere between a mild recession and societal collapse and mass starvation. I’m hoping for the former and completely unprepared for the latter.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-14 08:23:13

I think you underestimate how dependent we are on China, India, etc.

I haven’t seen a product made in the US of A at Target in years.

I think 300,000 people in Iceland will be able to cope much better than us.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 08:47:28

A lot of people would be much happier if we built some of those products right here in the good old US of A.

 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 07:58:46

Yo VIP let’s kick it

Iceland Iceland baby
Iceland Iceland baby

All right stop collaborate and listen
Iceland is back with it’s brand new intention
England grabs a hold of it’s bounty tightly
Flows out like a harpoon daily and nightly
Will it ever stop yo I don’t know
Turn off the lights and I’ll glow
To the extreme righties I rock a blog like a vandal
Light up a doobie and wax a chump like a candle
Dance go rush to the speaker that booms
I’m watching your brain vis a vis friendly mushroom
Deadly when I play a dope melody
Anything less than the best is a felony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-is6S_b_g

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 11:43:05

LOL

 
Comment by Bill in Maryland
2008-10-14 17:50:36

Alad, now I’m certain you are about 5 years younger than me.

 
 
 
Comment by Frank Hague
2008-10-14 05:41:50

A little more for the deflation side of the argument:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/14/business/economy/14commodities.html?ref=business

“Since the spring and early summer, when prices for many commodities peaked amid fears of permanent shortage, wheat and corn — two cereals at the base of the human food chain — have dropped more than 40 percent. Oil has dropped 44 percent. Metals like aluminum, copper and nickel have declined by a third or more.’

“The swift turnaround is the brightest economic news on the horizon for consumers, putting money into their pockets at a time they need it badly. Gasoline prices in the United States are falling precipitously — by about 24 cents over the last five days, to a national average of $3.21 a gallon on Monday — and analysts said they could go below $3 a gallon nationally this fall, down from a high of $4.11 a gallon in July.”

“Prices for most commodities remain elevated by past standards, and they rose a bit on Monday amid the broad market rally. But the trend seems to be downward as traders weigh the prospect that the global economic crisis will lead to sharp drops in demand. The big question is whether prices will drop all the way to long-term norms or whether Asia’s continuing economic boom has set a floor.”

Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 13:03:40

The trend in cereal boxes has been smaller sizes for the same price.

I haven’t seen Dow Chemical rescind its 25% and subsequent 20% price increase. I have not seen Australia or Brazil rescind their 100% and 65% price increase on iron ore.

The funny thing about the drop in oil is that it helps create inflation in other products. Money flows.

 
 
Comment by cynicalgirl
2008-10-14 05:57:52

Credit cards are the next shoe to drop. Who didn’t see this one coming?

http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/10/credit-cards-at.html

Comment by pressboardbox
2008-10-14 06:24:19

“In our U.S. card business, we’re taking many actions to navigate the current downturn,” he said. “The credit card business is exceptionally resilient, with high risk-adjusted margins and a business that doesn’t suffer the issues of collateral value that currently plague in particular the mortgage industry.”

-Are you kidding me???? He brags that there is no collateral to worry about the value?!!!!!

Comment by Muir
2008-10-14 07:40:02

Well, obviously, neither of us is an economist; otherwise we would be able to understand these things.

 
Comment by Blano
2008-10-14 08:21:12

Bingo, press. Thought that sounded rather weird myself.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-10-14 08:34:14

Yes, homeowners return the house which is now at a deflated value. Card holders keep their junk and just pay on it forever. I’m pretty sure the credit card companies make lots of profit.

Comment by Mirtika
2008-10-14 13:46:54

If I had my druthers, I’d make it a requirement that credit card monthly minimums be at least 10% of the balance. MINIMUM 10%. I think it’s ridiculous that someone can see making a minimum payment as “keeping up”. It’s not. You can have a huge balance and be making a paltry 2% payment on it.

I see that as more imprudent banking activity, and I don’t see it as benefitting society to allow people to run up huge balances they never pay off.

I knew a 22 year old guy who ran up 15K (ten years ago, when 15K was worth more), and then blithely decided to just go bankrupt. And when I say blithely, I mean blithely. It was a sort of laid-back, easy decision. Didn’t wanna pay. Didn’t wanna go to consumer counseling. Didn’t wanna take an extra job. Just “wipe the slate clean.” He figured he wasn’t gonna buy a house anytime soon, so why not take the credit hit and be all new in 7 years.

I hate this credit crap and consumerist insanity.

Crazy.

M.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 15:35:27

If I had my druthers

I wish you had your druthers, too.

I knew a 28-year old who racked up K20 on credit cards. She faced up to it and paid it back in a year. Of course, she had a family member who bought the debt back for her first, so she escaped the interest. Still, nice to know. She paid it back in cash in 13 or 14 months.

I paid back my student loans the same year as she was paying off her CCs, and we talked later. I can tell you that once you pay a big chunk of money back, you never lose sight of its value again, so that blithe guy is gonna stay blithe. HOWEVER, if he does rack up more debt, he will find that his escape route is blocked next time. All the debt services will be offering him lots of incentives to get into trouble after bankruptcy, because they know he’ll have to pay it back. He used up his lifeline, and better hope he never faces a real hardship later in life.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 17:09:40

If he bankrupted 10 years ago and waited 7 years to buy a house and actually bought it then: Boom, screwed again.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 19:56:34

If I had my druthers,
I’d ruther have my druthers,
than do any work at all.

It ain’t that I hates it
I often contemplates it
while watching the raindrops fall.

–Lil’ Abner–

 
 
 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-14 09:46:01

‘Despite its grim tone, the report notes that even a worst-case scenario collapse of the credit card market would not damage the overall economy the way the housing market meltdown has; it’s simply a much smaller problem. The U.S. mortgage market, with about $11 trillion in outstanding loans, dwarfs the credit card market, with about $1 trillion in outstanding balances.’

Oh, whew. For a minute there I was feeling a bit anxious. Now I’m sure everything’s gonna’ work out great.

 
Comment by SV guy
2008-10-14 16:07:33

Makes me feel warm and fuzzy reading this. I’ve had puts on COF for a while.

BTW, just got back from a 10 day fishing trip in Oregon, ending with a couple of days on the Columbia River. Good times indeed!

Mike

 
 
Comment by hwy50ina49dodge
2008-10-14 06:03:07

Dow +936 = 48 hour Free Market intervention = Global Financial Problem’s solved = time to dismantle TARP. :-)

Paulson (loud whistle): “Hey, Goldilocks…quick get on the train, it’s leaving the station!
Goldilocks: “But there’s just the engine…where is the rest of the train cars?”
Paulson: Well, we’ll worry about that later…right now there is only room for one passenger…and you’re the lucky gal! ;-)

 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-14 06:08:25

I was reading “Hard Times” by Studs Terkel, about the great depression.

Back then, when foreclosing on farms, the banks were getting deficiency judgements against people with no assets, no job, no home, no food. Many spent a decade trying to pay them off. There were mass protests to stop the deficiency judgements.

There’s a dog that hasn’t barked, given the multiple years and tens of millions of dollars the financial industry spent to get the right to collect part of people’s salaries for years after bankruptcy. Anybody hear anything about deficiency judgements? I haven’t seen examples posted here.

I wonder if, politically, the financial industry feels it had better not dare. Or, because it isn’t the mortgage servicers money, they don’t care.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 06:11:20

“Or, because it isn’t the mortgage servicers money, they don’t care.”

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner! The “financial industry” will dare to do anything.

Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 07:14:30

I’ve been wondering something along these lines - will anyone care, eventually? Is anyone going to chase down these payments?

Saddling the unemployed and homeless with debt payments didn’t stave off the Depression. But the moral hazard issue bothers me.

I taught high school in a neighborhood that now has a >>3% foreclosure rate. During the housing boom, these folks would send their kids to school with iPhones, new Nikes, and no pencils, no lunch. I was helpless in the face of such bass-ackwards priorities, and it looks like these folks may never have to face this problem.

 
 
Comment by Legal Eagle
2008-10-14 07:22:53

Many states don’t allow deficiency judgments on 1st mortgages. But if you screw over HSBC on your 2nd piggy loan, they’ll be coming after you, believe me, they’re already doing it, and they’ll take 15% of your paycheck (in IL) until you go BK.

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-14 09:16:18

And that is a good thing……nail those reckless no down 2nd mortgage debtors in the wallet till they cry Uncle.

From a renters point of view its VERY FAIR.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 21:17:08

Besides, less money amongst renters means lower rents ;)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-10-14 09:38:25

Best news I’ve heard all day. :)

 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 06:09:26

PBS Newshour had some squawking experts on last night, talking about the economic crisis. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec08/globaleconomy_10-13.html

I’m posting some excerpts from Martin Feldstein (Harvard). Emphasis is mine:

======
MARTIN FELDSTEIN: Well, simply injecting equity by itself isn’t going — there isn’t going to be enough equity injected to make other financial institutions and other investors in the commercial market willing to provide lots of additional funds to the major banks that are holding impaired securities.

What the Europeans are doing that we’re not doing is providing some kinds of credit guarantees on top of that.

But the fundamental thing in my mind about the situation in the United States that makes us very different from Europe is that our bad mortgage paper, our bad assets in these financial institutions, is being driven by the foreclosures and defaults in the residential real estate market.

For us, we have to get at the fundamental cause of all this, which is the rapid decline in house prices, which is causing individuals to default on their mortgages, leading to foreclosures and a further downward spiral in house prices.

Yes, I do, because while it’s true that they’re going to try to help some of those who are already with negative equity, that is, have loan, mortgage loans that exceed the value of their homes, nothing in this plan deals with those people who today have some positive equity, have loans less than the value of their home, but are seeing house prices fall and are being pushed into a situation where it will be attractive to default.

So there’s no firewall. There’s no circuit-breaker to stop what Joe Stiglitz described as hemorrhaging from the loss in the prices of homes, leading to defaults, leading to foreclosures, and thus creating a downward spiral in house prices.

And even if we were to do everything in the U.S. that the Europeans are doing, it wouldn’t be enough, because we have this fundamental problem in the housing sector that’s driving our own and, indeed, also, to the extent that the Europeans are holding U.S. mortgage-backed securities, that is driving the problems there, as well.
======

Within 8 minutes [with two other guys talking too], this guy says three times that we need to keep house prices artifically high. And oh by the way, government is not putting enough money into the banks!

And he’s not the only expert I’ve seen asking to keep house prices up. Geez, talk about bunch of “whiners.” With one side of their mouths they deplore “nationalization” and “socialization” and lament the “fall of capitalism.” On the other side they beg for more taxpayer bailout dollars to keep house prices up (so banks can privatize the profit later, of course). Greed on all sides.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 06:21:38

Yes, this “prop up the housing market” is driving me completely batty.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 17:13:25

One of the presidential candidates (it doesn’t even matter which one) revealed his plan and it includes a Hillary Clinton style mortgage foreclosure moratorium. (Mortgage lending moratorium? Whatever.)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:44:45

“For us, we have to get at the fundamental cause of all this, which is the rapid decline in house prices, which is causing individuals to default on their mortgages, leading to foreclosures and a further downward spiral in house prices.”

Can a Harvard professor really have such a shallow grasp of fundamentals, or is this merely econoganda?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 07:12:20

Trust me, they can.

Years of doing regressions and talking IS-LM models means they have forgotten that rents are determined by incomes.

Scary but true.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:41:52

Hee hee…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by MazNJ
2008-10-14 09:15:17

He’s much more than a Harvard professor (he was my first econ prof there and the reason I decided not to continue to pursue econ there).

He is the CEO of the NEBR currently, was or still is on the board of AIG, and was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors from 82 to 84 and chief econ advisor to Reagan.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by patient renter
2008-10-14 11:05:14

Any other “expert” economists that you can warn us of?

 
Comment by MazNJ
2008-10-14 11:16:46

Sadly even good economists can go bad… I had great respect for Bernanke (my sister’s econ professor) up until he became Fed Chief… he apparently sold out since then …

Roubini and Krugman (subtract Krugman’s political leanings - never had him as a professor but have had the pleasure of attending several lectures) are both excellent. Ingo Walters also.

#1 sign of any good economist is they openly welcome debate / discussion.

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:04:01

“#1 sign of any good economist is they openly welcome debate / discussion.”

sign of a good anyone. never trust the defensive.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 08:38:33

In a rather hysterical dog-bites-man twist of fate, the general public is trying in earnest to educate the good Professor about the root cause of the financial crisis:

Tuesday, October 14, 2008
Wall Street Journal
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
Artificially Inflated House Prices Caused the Crisis

Martin Feldstein’s solution to stabilize the economy by creating “a firewall to break the downward spiral of house prices,” is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place — creating and sustaining artificially-inflated prices for homes (”The Problem is Still Falling House Prices,” op-ed, Oct. 4). Instead of acknowledging the reality of this house of cards, he wants us to prop up the pyramid to the tune of $1 trillion. If we do, we will get to go through this whole process again in a few years at an even greater expense.

Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 09:00:42

“Prop up the pyramid” is the operative phrase here. Housing is a pyramid scheme that ran out of new investors, plain and simple as that. There is NO NEW MONEY, there are NO MORE LAYERS OF BUYERS. The only buyers for the next TEN years will likely be bottom feeders, knife catchers, and the occasional canned-pea-and-AK-47 nester (me).

All these cash infusions from governments are trying to repair the past — a fancy version of “I just got my paycheck, but it’s spent already.”

 
Comment by Marcus
2008-10-14 12:03:38

We need to rename pyramid schemes… they’re really diamond shaped. That’s the problem. They grow wider and wider and seem really stable for a while. Then the base of new “blocks” diminshes for whatever reason and the pyramid’s bottom narrows until it is ready to tip over. I propose that we go with Diamond scheme from now on.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:38:22

trust me, keeping homee prices artificially high is the number one priority in Europe as well. Both the public and the kleptocrats are demanding it, and the banksters will be happy to arrange it: even lower rates, even more government guarantees and subsidies; free drinks from the house to keep everybody playing along in the biggest pyramid game ever.

Comment by patient renter
2008-10-14 11:07:14

Two can play this game. I’ll rent for however long it takes for the house of cards to fall.

Try me.

 
 
 
Comment by In Raleigh
2008-10-14 06:11:42

We went garage sale-ing on Saturday. As we drove around, I began wondering how the economic problems will affect garage sales and thrift shops. Will the available stock go down because more people can only afford used goods? Will it go up because more people need to sell their junk to pay bills? Or will the two balance each other out?

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-14 07:21:33

Good question.

My guess is thrift, resale and vintage shops will do well. The layman’s selloff is good for business.

First, because people will be looking for value. While there’s lots of useless junk in thrift, resale and vintage shops, you can also clothe yourself or outfit your kitchen or buy tools to work on your car for a fraction of the retail cost. Second, the used market is like a food chain — the “pickers” from secondhand hipster shops and vintage stores rely on garage sales and less discriminating thrift stores for their stock. They’re cherry-picking the stuff that their clientele will buy, and marking it up significantly from the garage sale price. But it’s still typically a lot cheaper than the latest retail schlock from China.

 
Comment by Kandy Kane DelwhateveritwasIforget
2008-10-14 09:31:35

I worry about this, since I thrift everything except food. I think for a while we’re going to be in an amazing wonderland of garage sales (I’m in heaven every Saturday these days). Then they’ll dwindle to nothing as people begin to starve and every garage is a foreclosed-upon garage. We’ll see side-of-the-road sales of outright garbage and the thrift stores will jack prices and then empty out. The bales and bales of thrifted crap I already own will keep me in goods, but HOW WILL I GET MY ACQUISITION FIX? I’m an American! If I don’t shop, do I even exist?

 
Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 12:03:04

Garage and thrift will do fine. People will always need to shop for “new” stuff, even if it’s only new to them. Might actually be good to get out and meet people at the sales, rather than holing up with Guitar Hero.

 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2008-10-14 06:17:58

Where is the public outrage? The bailout was voted on based on specific parameters regarding exact allocation of the public funds. Now Paulson somehow gets to just try whatever scheme he wishes with all of the hundreds of billions of dollars? What was the purpose of the senate and house votes on the bill if they can just rewrite it after the fact? Wouldn’t that be like getting money appropriated for a war on Iraq and then using it to attack Canada instead? Please tell me I am the idiot here? I am really scared.

Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 06:47:29

This was covered in the plan. It’s a comprehensive plan.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 12:19:18

Dave’s not here.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 06:19:39

How nice it was to see my friend HAL making an appearance on the Colbert Report, last night

Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 06:51:37

I was hoping for a rousing rendition of “Daisy”.

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-14 09:56:04

I can do a great ‘Daisy’ as sung by HAL. All draggy and slow and creepy as his poor metal brain shuts down.
I think I’ll do it right now and freak everybody out. And then I’ll do some of my favorite parts of the Godfather, and cheer them all up again! You wouldn’t think a fidgety albino girl could do such a successful Godfather, with the pouchy gravitas and intonations and all, but you’d be super wrong.

 
 
 
Comment by KR
2008-10-14 06:24:02

I know a gazillion people who were upside down on their mortgages in the early 1990’s - don’t recall anyone walking because of it. A nation of sissys IMO.

Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 06:59:22

Right - I don’t understand people who can more or less afford their mortgage simply walking away because their house is upside down. And like the truly F’ed B’s, they will suffer only the indignity of a blotch on their credit reports.

Being upside-down doesn’t seem like a big deal if you can afford your payments and are living in a home you plan to stay in for a while. But then again, I’m viewing houses as places for shelter and comfort, not Investments.

New cars bought with loans are always upside down. Why don’t all of those people walk away?

Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 07:25:21

if you can afford your payments

Ay, there’s the rub. In the 90’s, payments didn’t rise 50% three years into the mortgage. Being underwater only matters if you have to sell, and once those teasers are up, you have to sell.

Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 08:06:37

I’ve heard anecdotes on this blog of people who didn’t (seem to) have ARMs, and yet walked away when the house was underwater. Perhaps I misunderstood.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2008-10-14 09:07:44

Probably not. There might be people who (wisely)walked in anticipation, knowing that it’s better to spend five years repairing the FICO, than to fight the mortage for five years and lose the house anyway.

Or people who walked on a second house. Or the price of gas and health insurance rose enough that they couldn’t cover a fixed payment. Or, they had to sell for the traditional reasons: like death/illness/divorce/job loss/relocation.

Too many variables to keep track of them all. :-)

 
 
 
Comment by FED Up
2008-10-14 08:06:33

Good point about the cars. The old rule of thumb when buying a house was that it took about 5 years before you wouldn’t lose money selling the house. Now the NAR has propagated the idea that you should become a rich man for buying and selling a home no matter how long you lived there.

If these peopled looked at it as an investment, do they believe they are entitled to always make money on their investment? I guess NAR had their hand in that one too. David Lereah and his minions always talking how house prices always go up.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:45:32

You obviously don’t understand the way an option ARM loan works…

 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-10-14 08:15:49

That’s because many/most of them had put 20% down on their purchases. When walking, they would leave their huge deposits behind, something that most people didn’t want to/wouldn’t do.

Now we have people who have 0 dollars in this mix. All they lose by walking away is their credit rating. That’s a much different situation!

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 09:49:08

It is also likely far easier to justify walking after an “unexpected” doubling of your monthly payment, due to an option ARM reset. This is why the govt is getting into the fixed term mortgage refinancing business.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-10-14 09:51:02

michael, are the people (realtors) still giving you a hard time on the local comment boards in florida? or are they still putting up a fight about how “its different here”? Lol!

 
 
Comment by shibbo
2008-10-14 08:22:09

So you’re friends in the ’90s, were they upside down $50,000 or $100,000 or more like people are today?

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-14 09:24:47

Yeah but you FORGET:

We had more stability in jobs, no Nafta…and you didnt have to compete with Illegals for the minimum wage food service or manufacturing type survival jobs..

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-14 10:18:43

You’re right. None of my friends walked on their condos and coops after the 1980s housing bubble. They lived packed in there for years before being able to bring enough money to closing to get out.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-10-14 06:26:40

Where in the U.S. Constitution does it authorize the federal government to go into the banking business? It doesn’t, but the Treasury Department is going to nationalize parts of several big banks in an attempt to restore confidence and get the credit balloon blown back up again.

The big question is: Can American consumers be lured back into their habit of spending money they don’t have on things they don’t need?

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 06:48:13

“The big question is: Can American consumers be lured back into their habit of spending money they don’t have on things they don’t need?”

The small answer is: no. Can’t spend what you don’t have.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:51:17

How about the American consumer’s habit of buying homes they cannot afford? Could lenders be lured back into helping Americans do this?

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-14 07:01:17

“Could lenders be lured back into helping Americans do this?”

LMAO! Don’t think so. Not until the next real estate bubble, which would be another 70 years hence.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:54:43

Don’t underestimate the FHA or the robotic govt-controlled GSEs.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 08:03:14

Don’t underestimate that once the “mania has broken”, you will never be able to lure them into the trap again.

 
Comment by nycjoe
2008-10-14 08:21:23

Yes, it’s like how many times in a game can you call a halfback option pass or fake a punt?

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:50:53

Lucy got Charlie Brown every time…

On the other hand, isn’t the housing market too saturated to really get going again? In Canada, we have about 70% of the population already in the housing market. (Not sure how that stacks up against the various States and Great Britain.) We can’t do that thing where you foreclose on one house and buy another, though. Foreclosed and you’re out for 7 years.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 21:23:03

Silly Canadian: ;)
Buy the new house to live in (first) and keep the old one to rent out as an “investment” property. Then stop paying for the old one. (From discussion here, US banks are just starting to wake up to this scam variant.)

It’s the new American Way. We should call it innovative foreclosure techniques. I think there was a seminar on it recently, or maybe it is on YouTube ;)

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-15 09:41:23

IFT sounds good :) (eh)

 
 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-10-14 07:07:04

“The big question is: Can American consumers be lured back into their habit of spending money they don’t have on things they don’t need?”

Sure if they can get loans they won’t have to pay back.

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 07:13:52

The Brits are expected to run their nationalized banks like utilities. As the recession deepens, we’ll probably do the same.

 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 06:36:11

OK here it comes, courtesy of the boyz at the Fed.
“The greatest sucker punch ever thrown.”TM

An engineered slaughter of the multitudes and a wipeout by the Fed. Thousand Point UP day

Fake rally, dead cat rally, uptick, spike…no matter. It always fades back to bad news, sell at the market and here come new lows…

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:47:34

It’s looking like there may be a round trip move today…

Comment by AK-LA
2008-10-14 07:00:50

Cue the slide whistle.

 
 
Comment by Tim
2008-10-14 06:52:30

If this morning’s rally can be sustained until this afternoon, I’m thinking about selling what I brought Friday and lock in the double digit gains. I can always buy on the next plunge.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 06:59:19

Ya better hurry if you are long the NASDAQ.

Comment by Tim
2008-10-14 07:17:15

Ever since the tech crash I can’t take the NASDAQ seriously. It’s in the S&P500. I would try some different things, but my 401k has very limited alternatives and I am generally risk adverse, but does allow me to trade indexes with no transaction costs.

REHOBBYIST bought Ford on Friday. Not a bad play. He can sell today for about a 40% gain. Good going.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by ouro verde
2008-10-14 07:13:52

Lastnite, with fires blazing outside my window, and mc cain promising to save house prices, and o’bama promising to raise all taxes, I dreamt that anybody who didn’t vote for o’bama is taken prisoner for not believing in the greater good. In my dream I was eating lots of udon noodles.
Monitors on!

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 08:12:04

Good luck on the fire situation, Ouro… I can see the thick smoke from my drive to work, and it is bringing back bad memories of last October.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 08:25:20

I’m suddenly in the mood for udon noodles now.

Damn you, damn you. :-D

Comment by ouro verde
2008-10-14 10:23:33

No sambal for you.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:30:48

Why you gotta be cruel, huh?

 
 
 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:59:13

Last night I dreamt that I casually purchased a terrible condo. I didn’t inspect it or anything, I just signed on the bottom line. Then, I found out more and more about the terrible features on this condo (there was an exploding gas line and it was in the middle of a highway, etc.) and realized I couldn’t sell it ’cause the market was turning as I was buying it. I tried to make the realtor take it back, and then found that the realtor had stolen my atm card!

The funniest part is that in the dream I kept thinking, “all those hours on the bubble blog were a waste, I got caught in the market anyway, and I’ll never get out now.” I was so relieved to wake up in my rental, I can’t tell you.

Udon would have been a much better dream. Or soba with yam tempura. mmmm.

Comment by ButImNotDeadYet
2008-10-14 18:40:36

Your dream is telling you to build an exploding gas line in the middle of the highway, and to disguise your creation by parking your recreational vehicle over it until the last minute…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:32:45

I think there’s a noodle bubble.

We need a road trip to eat the best noodles or else we’re all gonna explode from noodle desire and/or die within our dreams.

That’s my explanation, and I’m stickin’ with it.

 
Comment by ella
2008-10-15 09:48:37

noodle bubble! it’s worth getting irrational for.

See you on the okonomiyaki express!!!!

An ounce of ramen is worth a pound of cure and all that.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:18:07

From the looks of things, it appears the bulls are running out of Viagra.

MarketWatch.com
October 14, 2008 10:13 A.M.ET
BULLETIN
Blue chips keep it up

Nasdaq dips into red as some of the biggest-name tech shares fade
It’s a second day of sizable gains for the Dow industrials as investors like what they hear about stabilizing U.S. banks and lending.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 08:28:23

I just love how they keep racheting down the headlines:

Global stocks rally.
Dow rallies.
Blue chips are keeping up.
Stocks lower but optimism up.

… etc.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 11:22:29

Well, that sure ended quickly…

 
 
Comment by Mad Boy
2008-10-14 06:55:55

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-14 05:36:56
GM closing two Midwest factories way ahead of initial plans. UAW jobs (and wages) leaving spells…wage D E F L A T I O N.

Yes, things are going well in Rock County and Dane County, WI.

Local auto dealer is laying off several employees at each of its 22 locations. GM is stopping production earlier than anticipated – people outraged, as they thought an earlier announcement of the plant being closed by the end of 2010 guaranteed the plant would run until Dec. 31, 2010.

GMAC is raising its credit requirements for auto loans and increasing interest rates on those loans.

Bergstrom Motors To Layoff Some Employees

http://www.channel3000.com/news/17708850/detail.html

GM to end local SUV production in December
http://gazettextra.com/news/2008/oct/13/gm-close-janesville-plant-december/

GMAC Tightens Lending To Borrowers Of Auto Loans
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200810131756DOWJONESDJONLINE000661_FORTUNE5.htm

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:15:18

Is GMAC too big to fail? If they are tightening lending standards and raising interest rates, now may be a good time to invest in them, as it sounds like they are returning to an old era of sound banking principles.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 07:35:02

No, even assuming that they are “too big to fail”, they are saddled with past bad loans.

You are better off investing in a sparkly shiny brand new bank with “sound banking principles”.

What Southwest was to the traditional airlines, so shall this new bank (theoretical for now) be to the old ones.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:40:11

Keep us posted when you see these emerge. My concern is that unless top economic policy makers repudiate the doctrine of too-big-to-fail and give it a decent Christian burial, we will see the vestiges of the corporate behemoths in the investment banking sector rise in a few years like so many Phoenixes from the ashes, with a return to business as usual.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-14 07:51:29

we will see the vestiges of the corporate behemoths in the investment banking sector rise in a few years like so many Phoenixes from the ashes …

Like Voldemort in the Harry Potter series, the bad guys may bide their time and reappear in slightly altered but still malignant form.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 08:10:05

Beware the banker who must not be named. Voldemortgage will rise again!

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 10:44:34

the vestiges of the corporate behemoths in the investment banking sector rise in a few years like so many Phoenixes

I don’t see the Japanese banks having “risen” in a very long time.

Even with the bailout, this is gonna be one ball-bustin’ recession. The banking system has just been zombified. They are not going to lend.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 17:21:41

Forget harry potter. Read Glen Cook.

You could pound a Silver Spike through the head of the malignant evilist and his minion Paulson’s dog will eventually dig it up secretly and stick it in a pumpkin on top of a scarecrow and the thing will start to walk the land again.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 07:01:04

“The greatest sucker punch ever thrown.”TM
and “You should expect prices to fall faster than a crowbar down a well!”TM may be considered Public Domain for HBB’ers. See BenJonesCo for internet access.

Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 07:47:14

Question about your SLV: does it bother you that paper silver is trading at ’spot’ while physical silver has a 50% premium? You have lost 50% of the value of physical, by holding paper. This is not sarcasm, I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.

I notice that Tulving is BUYING silver eagles at $5 over spot and gold ones at $70 over spot so the premium is probably more like 60% to buy.

Comment by tutto incognito
2008-10-14 08:38:06

Bothers me, watcher, but what can I do now?

Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 09:02:08

Good question. Here is another one; what if the ’spot’ price goes to $5 and the physical goes to $20? When does COMEX snap like a rubber band?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 08:52:39

You do know that the Fed is accumulating mining shares, mines, physical and of couse, ETF. This is paper just as much as your bank statement is paper. What is real, is that SLV is a steal!!!

No it doesn’t me at all. You might say I have this unshakable belief that the price of SLV will soon trade far ABOVE spot.

THAT my friends doesn’t bother me at all.
I rent.
I don’t have any debts.
I have one car, It’s paid for. It’s in the garage in the house I rent in Mesa.
2004 S500 Mercedes
And I will bear you my testimony now that
having $440,730 worth of SLV has it’s risks.
And I know this Church is true.

Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 09:30:20

If you say so. I don’t know why the Fed would drive down the price to accumulate shares when shares can be created infinitely. Or the government could just expropriate yours. Or ban them entirely.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-10-14 10:59:01

Are you alleging that SLV doesn’t have the physical silver to back up the shares as advertised? I know the Gold ETF’s are subject to outside audits of actual physical holdings. Not 100% safe, but it would have to be scam of great proportion.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 12:16:00

How could a financial ’scam of great proportion’ ever happen in this day and age?

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 21:25:10

Second question: would it even be noticed amongst the redwoods?

 
 
 
Comment by WhatOnceWas
2008-10-14 19:04:12

” I notice that Tulving is BUYING silver eagles at $5 over spot and gold ones at $70 over spot so the premium is probably more like 60% to buy.”
He had 200 monster boxes (500/case) 3 days ago, 50 yesterday, sold out early this morn. @ 6 over spot. He was the last big retailer I knew that had any…I’m sure there will be dribs,and drabs, but should be interesting going forward.

 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-10-14 07:12:24

The US government is spending billions it doesn’t have and I don’t see whos going to pay for it ? You can tax me and every other middle class worker 100% and not even put a dent in it.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:21:48

Wall Street Journal

* MAIN STREET
* OCTOBER 14, 2008

Shouting ‘Fannie!’ in a Crowded Congress
Advice from the man who foresaw the GSE collapse.

Richard Baker says that he’s not in the business of advising presidential candidates. That’s too bad. The candidates and the American taxpayer might be in a better place if he were.

Mr. Baker, of course, is the former Louisiana Republican who spent nearly a decade crying in the wilderness . . . er, Congress . . . that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were ticking time bombs. Earlier this year he was named CEO of Managed Funds Association, a lobbying firm that represents the hedge-fund industry. And amid the financial carnage, he is somewhat bemused to hear people say they are shocked, shocked to learn that someone had predicted it all.

“Everyone writes as though there were just one hearing or one piece of legislation,” says Mr. Baker. “I think I must have had eight bills and maybe 40 hearings going back to 1996.”

Mr. Baker’s interest in Fan and Fred grew out of the savings-and-loan debacle. “My background was in real estate and home building,” he says. “At the time I ran for Congress, we were dealing with the S&L problem — lax lending standards, and the American taxpayer on the hook for risks other people were taking. I saw how destructive that was to the personal wealth and businesses of many of my friends and associates. And when I looked into Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, I saw the same problems — only a lot bigger and a lot more dangerous.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:28:12

Mr. Baker declines to comment on any of the proposals put forward by either Barack Obama or John McCain. But he does outline some general principles that should have some resonance with each of the candidates. Sen. Obama, for example, might like Mr. Baker’s idea of returning the mission of affordable housing to a revitalized Department of Housing and Urban Development (working with the Federal Housing Administration and the Department of Veterans Affairs).

There are several advantages to such a reform. First, the risk to the financial sector would be removed. Second, the congressionally protected monopoly that Fan and Fred exploited would be gone — and with that the obscene salaries enjoyed by its top executives. Finally, HUD might actually get more housing built for low-income Americans, as opposed to the $200,000 to $300,000 loans that Mr. Baker says characterized a good chunk of Fan and Fred’s portfolios.

For Sen. McCain, Mr. Baker’s distinctions between deregulation of the private sector and the lack of oversight for a federally backed enterprise might help him push back on the Democratic talking point that the whole mess was caused by GOP-inspired financial deregulation.

“My starting principle is this,” says Mr. Baker. “The closer an enterprise is to the taxpayer’s wallet, the more congressional oversight it requires. The further away you get from that wallet, the more freedom you should give people, because they are risking their own money, not the taxpayers’.

I like much of what Mr. Baker suggests, but I call BS on this point about privatization and distance from the taxpayer’s wallet. $700 bn in bailout monies plus myriad other capital infusions to prop up the financial sector says that it is impossible for too-big-to-fail financial corporations to distance themselves from the taxpayer’s wallet when a boom goes bust.

It appears that the only way to avoid putting the taxpayer at risk is to repudiate the too-big-to-fail doctrine. A more competitive financial sector would result and America could get back to work.

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 07:30:59

Oct. 14 (Bloomberg) — The financial crisis in the icy northern European country was worsening. Banks were failing, the unemployment rate was 20 percent and a decade-long housing boom had turned bust.

This was Finland in 1991….

In 1991, the government took control of more than 40 small savings banks and moved the non-performing assets off their books to a company run by the central bank. In 1993, it set up an independent authority to monitor the financial services industry. The number of bank employees fell by half during the 1990s, according to the Bank of Finland.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a5q9KWDZwFyg&refer=home

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:32:10

Time to kill the messenger that bears bad news? It seems like more accurate, rather than less accurate, accounting standards is what the banking sector needs to heal. Why do these fooks think banks don’t trust each other enough to make an overnight loan?

WSJ.com
* BUSINESS
* OCTOBER 14, 2008

FASB Rules Come Under Fire by Banks
By MARK H. ANDERSON and DAVID REILLY

Mark-to-market accounting came under fire on both sides of the Atlantic, with banks pressing for relaxation or suspension of the practice, which has been criticized as exacerbating the financial crisis.

The American Bankers Association asked securities regulators to override recent guidelines from the Financial Accounting Standards Board on mark-to-market accounting, contending the proposed rule changes don’t address bank concerns about the practice.

The group also argued in a letter to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson that government officials also should consider changes to mark-to-market rules relating to bank mergers.

Mark-to-market accounting involves the use of market prices, as opposed to initial costs, for a variety of financial instruments. Banks have argued that the practice has worsened the financial crisis because downbeat market values have forced banks to recognize big losses that they believe will one day reverse.

Comment by darthrealtor
2008-10-14 11:13:47

Does this mean the a$$holes have to restate earnings for the past 5 years because mark to market gave them millions and millions of paper profits?

They damn well should and they damn well won’t.

 
Comment by tresho
2008-10-14 14:28:02

OTOH:
Truer Values Are Needed At the Banks, WSJ, C16, 14 Oct 2008
The intensifying debate over mark-to-market accounting is missing the point.
The question shouldn’t be whether regulators should relax or suspend the practice. It should be whether regulators should encourage banks to expand their use of it.
The reason: Credit markets are already marking bank balance sheets to their own view of market values, or walking away in the absence of such information.
That isn’t going to change if the U.S. or Europe alters the accounting rules. If anything, it might give these investors yet another reason not to invest. What markets really need is more information about who is sitting on what losses.
However, many banks and some governments want to row in the opposite direction. The American Bankers Association on Monday released a letter calling on the Securities and Exchange Commission to essentially gut mark-to-market accounting. Internationally, accounting rule makers Monday eased some mark-to-market rules. But it isn’t clear whether this will be enough to appease the European Union, which may still move to water down the practice further.
The argument against mark-to-market accounting is that it forces banks to use overly pessimistic market prices to value holdings. That triggers losses that deplete capital.
Debt investors don’t buy that. They believe that the values banks put on their loans, which mostly aren’t marked, still don’t adequately reflect losses that will result from the housing crisis. Investors have also cast a jaundiced eye on possibly understated losses on the securities that banks do mark to market prices.
In other words, investors still think some bank balance sheets are cuckoo. Accounting rules should be used to remedy that situation, not make it worse. –David Reilly

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 21:32:05

Of course it is exacerbating the financial crisis.
But removing it won’t fix the crisis (of inter-bank confidence.)
You “can’t scam a scammer” and the guy who just breathed a sigh of release because he didn’t have to write down his junk knows very well how exactly much he can trust the other banks.

Seems like the only way to increase trust is to make them all demonstrably solvent again. Recapitalize via dilution or perhaps government gifts.

Interesting that no private party is interested in recapitalizing them anymore. I guess it is up to the government. Looks like they finally hit on the way to fix the “banking crisis”. (Assuming they don’t run out of money or votes first.)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 07:35:46

Ask not what you can do for your Country, but what your Country can do for you.

Wall Street Journal
* THE GAME
* OCTOBER 14, 2008

Street’s Demands May Stir Public Wrath

You would have thought the Street’s last surviving chieftains would be a contrite bunch by now, eager to reform their industry and help rebuild their country.

At least until you heard Goldman Sachs Group Inc.’s Lloyd Blankfein, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.’s James Dimon, Blackstone Group LP’s Stephen Schwarzman, BlackRock Inc.’s Larry Fink and Silver Lake’s Glenn Hutchins assemble for a panel session at the New York Stock Exchange last week organized in part by The Wall Street Journal.

To the 75 Wall Street titans there nodding in agreement, the discussion must have seemed banal. But any outsider, from Washington or the dismissed realms of “flyover country,” would have been amazed at the goings-on.

While America buckles in for years of sacrifice, the five chiefs took a different approach. The group pulled straight from the what-government-can-do-for-you school of 2006, lobbying for Wall Street tax breaks, the repeal of Sarbanes-Oxley and against the distraction of class-action lawsuits.

Some of this may be sensible. But in light of a bailout already approaching $1 trillion — including direct taxpayer injections into bank shares — it also seemed politically suicidal.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 09:54:09

Yegads — suddenly McCain-Palin don’t look so bad after all…

DAVID WEIDNER’S WRITING ON THE WALL
The next Treasury Secretary is…
Commentary: J.P. Morgan’s Jamie Dimon is the leading candidate
By David Weidner, MarketWatch
Last update: 12:01 a.m. EDT Oct. 14, 2008

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Barring an October surprise, the fall election has all but been decided. The next question on Wall Street is whom President Obama will install as Henry Paulson’s successor as head of the Treasury Department.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 11:19:43

Surely there is at least one well-qualified Treasury Secretary candidate who is not so close to the heart of the crisis to create the appearance of conflicts of interest? How about Paul Volcker?

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-10-14 13:17:53

Volcker is getting up there in years, and he knows exactly how frustrating the job will be.

Does he really want the thankless, Sisyphean task of repairing the damage of the past decade — especially when his legacy is increasingly well-regarded?

That’s like asking a multi-Super Bowl winning coach to come out of retirement to helm an 0-and-16 team that can’t spend any money because of a salary cap.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Mary Lee
2008-10-15 01:47:59

Nouriel Roubini……. I can dream, can’t I?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by MEaston
2008-10-14 12:04:16

Yes less regulation and more trickle down economics will fix this? These pigs have no pride? What will fix this country is a middle class confident in their job security that can afford to buy stuff. We have destroyed the middle class with outsourcing, inflation, and piss poor regulation of the financial sector, and via a tax system that rewards the elite and penalizes the working class. Now the pigs want more.

Comment by CA renter
2008-10-15 03:34:23

Amen, MEaston!!!

 
 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 07:51:33

***WARNING*** Stock market advise ahead.

Sell every rally. (to the tune of Climb Every Mountain)

Comment by ouro verde
2008-10-14 11:24:22

Don’t cry for me Pasadena….

Sung to the tune of Don’t cry for me Argentina

 
Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-10-14 13:48:12

Sell every rally
Buy when it’s low
Follow the momentum
Watch your cash pile grow

Sell every rally
Watch close your screen
Follow every uptick
Till your red turns green

A green that will need
all commissions you give
every day of your life
for as long as you live

Sell every rally
Buy in between
Follow every cycle
Till - your - red - turns - green

Comment by building frenzy
2008-10-14 15:47:39

Not Born Free, anymore.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 08:19:54

Citi analysts sometimes prove rather prophetic. I believe one of them first put out the $100+/bl oil forecast a couple of years back, at a point when it seemed outlandish?

Citi analyst issues dour outlook for U.S. economy
By John Letzing
Last update: 4:15 p.m. EDT Oct. 13, 2008

“We believe large company profits will now fall 27% peak-to-trough, and the unemployment rate to peak above 8 1/2%,” Wieting wrote.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 08:54:11

The tragicomedy of errors known as Wall Street is best viewed without the ownership of any stocks, as things are much more clear, when you have no stake in the outcome…

(I envision myself being a later day-Pliny the Elder with laptop on a ship in bay of Naples, far enough away from the carnage to be safe, but close enough to see the damage wrought by Vesuvius)

Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 09:05:03

One month LIBOR at 4.469. It’s not moving.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:29:09

if the central banks keep jacking rates down to real negative rates, LIBOR has no other choice than going up I guess :)

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 10:54:25

It is rather like pushing in on one side of a balloon, I guess. Normally the other side bulges out.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-14 11:54:58

That’s not that high, IMHO.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 10:25:20

“I envision myself being a later day-Pliny the Elder with laptop on a ship in bay of Naples, far enough away from the carnage to be safe,…”

Pliny the Elder died on August 25th, AD 79 during the famed eruption of Mount Vesuvius that also destroyed the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum. :-(

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 11:08:29

Ship happens.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 17:26:24

Pliny the Smarter, or Pliny the Farther.

 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-14 10:43:28

Lovely image, Lad…

 
 
Comment by gather no moss
2008-10-14 08:54:35

Saw this article recently. The author is comparing the current meltdown to the Panic of 1873. I was wondering what others here thought of the comparison, I’m not really sure what to think. http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=477k3d8mh2wmtpc4b6h07p4hy9z83×18

Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-10-14 10:50:46

GNM, thanks for the link, that’s sobering stuff.

 
Comment by The Housing Wizard
2008-10-14 12:07:46

gather no moss …Very interesting . America was like China regarding cheap exports in 1873 . The 1873 crash lasted 4 years in America and 6 years in Europe ,but the Great Depression of 1929 lasted over 10 years .

 
 
Comment by watcher
2008-10-14 08:59:06

The Iceland situation is serious and alarming. The Prime Minister advised everyone to go fishing. I don’t know much about north Atlantic fishing seasons but it seems like a risky endeavor as winter comes on. According to the Icelandic writer of an ongoing thread I read on a gold blog, the country will run out of food in 2 weeks. The currency is not being accepted for food imports.

How long before the Decider tells us to ‘go farming’? In winter.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 10:27:45

yeah, and they have to catch a lot of fish to pay back the Brits and the Dutchies. I think they need to catch at least a few whales for each citizen (oh no, the Dutchies don’t want that either …).

Putin will be glad to help them out, but they are afraid that it is a Faustian deal ;-)

latest news: the nuclear power plant in my area has been saving up for future dismantling of the reactor on a 25M euro savings account from Icesave. No, this loan is not insured by any government (yet …). I think they need to save up a few thousand years more before they can retire the plant …

Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-10-14 12:39:12

Maybe they can retrofit it to turn lead into gold…

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-14 11:14:56

Sounds like I will soon be getting calls from Mercy Corp and Food for the Poor, to help out the starving Icelanders.

 
 
Comment by max4me
2008-10-14 09:18:24

From better than ezra

American dream

For twenty years he worked corporate
He planned to early retire
His CEO he stole a billion dollars
Now he’s working at Denny’s
Hoping for a raise
He thinks

Where did the time go
When everything was simple and free?
I want to know what happened
Somebody woke me before I could
Have my American Dream

 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 09:24:29

What I now rent for $1500 / month, plus utilities. Which is about $300 / month.

This from Zillow.

http://tinyurl.com/54a6cg

Comment by SFC
2008-10-14 10:09:44

I drive past this on my way to work. At night it’s so dark - how many of these places are occupied? Weren’t they advertised for $500K in the beginning?

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 11:23:05

Oh it is about 95% ocupied, if not more. The homes here were built begining 1998. This area has an HOA cost $85 per month. Of 254 houses in the subdivision, two went into foreclosure so far this year. Probably serial
re-financers.

 
 
Comment by The Housing Wizard
2008-10-14 11:49:08

Mormon tea …I think I remember those renting for around 2500 a month in the height of the boom . That is a big drop in rental price .
Little 2 bedroom Condos were renting for 1700 a month .I lived in Valencia for 24 years before I moved 3 1/2years ago .

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 14:45:08

I think you are 100% correct.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 09:24:52

Big fires raging down in L.A., most every drop of water used to fight it, being fresh-water from reservoirs already depleted beyond historic recorded lows, already.

Comment by Left LA
2008-10-14 09:36:22

Fires? In LA? During Santa Ana season?
Say it isn’t so!

Comment by speedingpullet
2008-10-14 09:51:43

Ach, don’t ;-)

I keep on getting little wafts from the smoke plume of the Sesnon fire - added to the fact that I’m coming down with ‘flu, I haven’t smelt anything but ‘campfire’ for the last 48 hours.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 09:57:46

Faustian bargaining chips, water.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-14 11:11:43

We were there last October, and it was fires all over the place.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 09:51:37

I saw footage last night of planes scooping up water from the sea to drop on coastal CA fires. Salt water is messy, but there is no shortage so far as I can tell.

Comment by Les Pendens
2008-10-14 10:07:47

..

Good luck with that.

“Salting the Earth” as it is called; will make for some nice “Victory Gardens” in the coming desperate times

..

 
 
Comment by speedingpullet
2008-10-14 10:24:07

If ever there was a city just crying out for some investment in solar-powered desalination plants, L.A is the place.

Amazingly, its was only last year that they got around to making plants to recycle ‘grey’ water. We have a long way to go.

 
Comment by Captwweedwacker
2008-10-14 10:57:43

i just don’t understand why anyone would choose to live in CA. Earthquakes, wildfires, mudslides, pollution, lack of freshwater, etc. As a right coaster, I’ll gladly take my chances with hurricanes and bible thumpers.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 11:01:08

Best to go with the devil you know…

 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-14 11:10:14

The weather baby! Ask any Californian why they think Cali is best, and its always the weather.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 12:51:16

The problems I have with CA are not so much what you list, but rather the people. There are TOO MANY of them. And especially of the gang banging, illegal alien variety. No thanks!

 
Comment by sfrenter
2008-10-14 13:40:07

Some of us are surfers.

Hawaii is too far away, although the waves there are awesome. Too cold in the East Coast in the winter, and the waves aren’t that good. Florida, nah, too cold and the waves are to small.

Whenever I leave the coast I feel claustrophobic.

There may be a lot of idiots in CA but this is my home. I grew up in Manhattan and thought I would be a die-hard New Yorker, but this year is 20 years here in CA and I am staying.

Comment by sfrenter
2008-10-14 13:41:51

oops, meant to say Florida is too HOT.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 22:04:29

Housing prices are becoming more affordable here by the day.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 10:35:22

Peter Scheer
Posted October 7, 2008 | 10:43 AM (EST)
Lack of Disclosure the Root Cause of the Financial Crisis

Economists and historians will be debating for years the causes of the financial crisis that, like a global array of dominoes, now threatens to take down the “real” economies of countries big and small, both “developed” and “emerging,” in a massive flight from investment risk unlike anything experienced since 1929.

To the experts’ lists of causes, let me add a lack of information–specifically, the systemic failure of lenders to disclose ample information about the risks of the mortgage loans being made to thousands of borrowers whose homes have since tanked in value, resulting in unprecedented rates of default. These defaults leave the holders of the affected mortgage investments–primarily banks around the world–with sizable loan portfolios that they can’t value and for which there is no functioning market.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 10:37:15

Financial Crisis Suicide Numbers Mounting
KELLI KENNEDY | October 14, 2008 09:00 AM EST | AP
Read More: Bailout, Economy, Financial Crisis, Financial Crisis Suicides, Mortgages, Suicides, Wall Street Crisis, Business News

An out-of-work money manager in California loses a fortune and wipes out his family in a murder-suicide. A 90-year-old Ohio widow shoots herself in the chest as authorities arrive to evict her from the modest house she called home for 38 years.

In Massachusetts, a housewife who had hidden her family’s mounting financial crisis from her husband sends a note to the mortgage company warning: “By the time you foreclose on my house, I’ll be dead.”

Then Carlene Balderrama shot herself to death, leaving an insurance policy and a suicide note on a table.

Across the country, authorities are becoming concerned that the nation’s financial woes could turn increasingly violent, and they are urging people to get help. In some places, mental-health hot lines are jammed, counseling services are in high demand and domestic-violence shelters are full.

 
Comment by Marcus
2008-10-14 10:48:55

A quick check of RealtyTrac shows that the frequency of distressed properties here in (It’s different her because of the University) Gainesvile, FL has been hovering around 37-40% since early summer. We are way behind the rest of the coutry but the market is cracking big time right now. My big-shot RE agent landlord (previous) has fled the area after serving as the local cheerleader. My old apt (vacant for a couple months) is still on the market with 40% reductions in rent and asking price. She has several other rentals and specs (flips) on the market too. She told us that she was in big trouble and didn’t know how she could make the payments anymore… then asked if we were interested in buying in this once-in-a-lifetime buyers market. It was like watching a nervous breakdown… nah, it was EXACTLY like watching a nervous breakdown. I cannot possibly explain how happy I am to be living in a dinky little efficiency right now.

Comment by Kandy Kane DelwhateveritwasIforget
2008-10-14 16:00:04

Hiya, Marcus. Ain’t it grand here!?

“I cannot possibly explain how happy I am to be living in a dinky little efficiency right now.”

Ditto! Everybody told me back in 2003 and 2004 and 2005, “it’s different here because of the University.” Luckily I get Harpers, and Harpers had an article, long long long before their “the next bubble” article, that said there was a housing bubble. I can’t find it now, but I know I read it in Harpers, and I believed Harper’s over ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE I KNOW, and thank GOD, too, or I’d be esscroooooot right now. I bet I’d be living in frikkin Alachua and not being able to afford the commute. I am spending $60/year on Lapham’s Quarterly (bigfatdoomedinthiseconomy startup journal from the Harpers editor, Lewis Lapham) even though I barely skim it, just out of gratitude. Lewis Lapham saved my ass. Everybody get Harpers.

Who was your bigshot landlord? Mine is a little shot, but I still hate him because among other things he cut down the grapefruit tree that used to grow in the parking lot. Some crap about “it’ll fall on the building if there’s a hurricane.”

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 10:56:07

Oct. 14 (Bloomberg) — Investors advised by “Black Swan” author Nassim Taleb have gained 50 percent or more this year as his strategies for navigating big swings in share prices paid off amid the worst stock market in seven decades.

Comment by nhz
2008-10-14 11:02:42

however, I think he wasn’t very good in managing his own fund some years ago … maybe he only does well in years of severe turmoil? That would make his strategy far less attractive.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 11:16:59

His strategy is to hang on during the good times and to make out like a bandit during the bad times. Kind of the opposite of running up and up with the bulls until they are mutually shocked to discover themselves running off a cliff together.

Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 12:46:40

His strategy is based on faulty math.
At least in this paper:
http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge257.html#taleb

The problem with his math is the confusion of “use of probabilistic methods for the estimation of risks did just blow up the banking system…” It is preposterous to assume that house buyers used statistical probabilities any more than random chance. More people made mistakes because they were stupid. The more likely shattering event was caused by availability. Serendipitous fortune in housing supply and cheap loans.

His analysis is schlock pablum for the masses, full of hyperbole without any substance.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 13:30:11

Fair enough. But still entertaining…

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 11:13:00

Ooops! We got them on the run again.

Comment by takingbets
2008-10-14 11:21:04

yeah, i was wondering who pulled the plug on that rally?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 11:43:26

Waiting for Go Dough

Comment by ACH
2008-10-14 12:11:47

Remember when a 200 point intra day on the djia was BIIIIG NEWS! Looks like we have about an 800 point intraday cooking right now. Ho hum.

So what happens when 3:00PM comes and goes? Remember the hedgefunds?
Roidy

P.S. It’s too big , and it’s gonna hurt.

 
 
 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 11:18:20

I had to share this article:

“Just Stop Paying Your Mortgage” by Peter Shiff

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081010/news_lz1e10schiff.html?ref=patrick.net

Sums up everything, and makes a good case for taking and spending as much home equity as you can, if you have any, and then stopping to pay the mortgage entirely.

 
 
Comment by calex
2008-10-14 11:19:18

“Apple Reduces MacBook Price to $999″

There is your deflation. Apple laptops under 1,000 is a big deal as far as I am concerned. They have always wanted the high price not only for margin, but for the status. I bought a new toshiba laptop for 499 this year at best buy.

Look for all the i-whatever to drop as the Heloc money is history for a few years and CC charges are going to be second guessed before you pull out that plastic.

Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:27:04

Technology traditionally gets cheaper over time, though, so is that really deflation? If they are veering from a “luxury” position in their branding or marketing strategy, then I see what you mean. Interesting.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:45:07

EVERYTHING traditionally gets cheaper over time because businesses try and become more efficient to make more money.

That’s why inflating the money supply is a crock. It’s a way for the government to steal ALL productivity gains without the population noticing.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2008-10-14 11:20:26

Thoughts on this? (warning PDF)

http://www.patriarchpartners.com/Lynn_Tilton_WashPost_NYT.pdf

A proposal to create a “provisional Federal Bank”, providing direct lending to all businesses.

While I’m firmly against central banking, I wonder if this might be a good way to “fight fire with fire” per se - create a bank that is:
- Explicitly government controlled (not having the pretense of being a private organization as is the Federal Reserve)
- Mandated as equal-opportunity lender, not lending only to large-cap banks but to all business types and sizes.
- Provisional*

* I’m not sure how this would be done - in her proposal Lynn just states “Incentives should be structured such that market forces gradually overtake the provisional infrastructure.”. In general it sounds hugely risk to become just another central bank but with wider scope - but given proper restrictions perhaps this could be ensured to be not the case.

Thoughts?

Seems like it may be a good idea - kind of like when the forest service does controlled burns to help prevent and/or stop forest fires. However sometimes these “controlled burns” get out of control themselves and do more harm than good.

 
Comment by packman
2008-10-14 11:32:54

Nice to see the IMF getting into subprime now…

(and using the U.S. as a precedent)

Small Nations, Big Test for IMF
Fund’s Role May Be to Contain the Crisis as It Hits Places Like Iceland

With global turbulence now threatening to cause smaller economies at various stages of development to implode, analysts said, the fund may now be charged with containing the crisis on the margins through targeted lending. The fund’s managing director, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, speaking ahead of the annual IMF meeting in Washington yesterday, has already acknowledged a surge in requests for assistance in recent weeks. He said the fund, armed with about $200 billion for loans, would streamline the often-lengthy approval process to as little as two weeks. He suggested that it would also be more flexible on the notoriously tough conditions it attaches to such loans.

The fund may not have a choice but to relax loan conditions. The IMF in the past solicited promises from borrowing governments to not interfere heavily in their financial sectors and to control spending. Yet those arguments are now far harder to make given the massive bailouts and government interventions being orchestrated by the fund’s largest members in Europe and the United States.

Hmmm - sound familiar?:

“Latin America has been pretty resilient up until three weeks ago, but now we see signs of strain,” said Luis Alberto Moreno, IDB president. “This money is going to be used so that governments can support their commercial banks and extend credit as needed to export agencies for trade finance. We need to do whatever we can to preserve the gains that have been made in recent years.”

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 11:48:38

“Just Stop Paying Your Mortgage” by Peter Shiff

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081010/news_lz1e10schiff.html

If you are a mortgage holder who is either struggling with crushing payments, bitter for having overpaid for your home during the bubble, or who has extravagantly refinanced when prices were rising, the government’s landmark $700 billion bailout package has an important message for you: stop making your mortgage payments . . . immediately. Furthermore, if you believe that with some planning and sacrifice you may be able to meet your mortgage obligations, the government’s message is clear: relax, don’t bother.

The government will have a lot on its hand, when a bunch of people figure out the game and stop paying.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 12:06:37

Gilligans Iceland

Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful financial trip
That started from this North Atlantic port
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty selling man,
The bankers brave and sure.
320,000 passengers set sail that day
For a three bank failure tour, a three bank failure tour.

The carry-trade started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed,
If not for the courage of the foreign exchange crew
Their savings would be lost, their savings would be lost.

The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted financial denial
With Gilligan
The Skipper too,
The ex-billionaire and his wife,
The movie star
The professor and Mary Ann,
Here on Gilligans Iceland

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 12:29:30

The oil bubble has popped spectacularly and quickly. Next bubble, please?

Comment by packman
2008-10-14 12:44:59

Kudos. You called it a few months ago.

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-10-14 12:52:19

What were they thinking? The IMF will very busy in the coming months.

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 12:54:09

Next bubble, please?

What’s your take on Treasuries? A fresh supply of government debt is coming soon, to workout the loans of troubled homeowners.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 13:08:51

It’d be Mad, Max.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 13:28:35

Rising Rates Opportunity ProFund

At a Glance

The Rising Rates Opportunity ProFund provides leveraged exposure to the most recently issued 30-year U.S. Treasury bond (”Long Bond”). The Fund seeks to track the Long Bond’s daily 4 p.m. price.

The benchmark for Rising Rates Opportunity ProFund is the most recently issued 30-year U.S. Treasury bond. U.S. Treasury bonds are guaranteed as to the timely payment of principal and interest, if held to maturity. However, both the principal and yield of a mutual fund will fluctuate with changes in market conditions.

 
 
Comment by ella
2008-10-14 14:22:35

Next bubble, please?

guns & butter

 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 14:48:13

Well professor, it’s time for silver mania!

Get AG on the brain!

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 12:29:49

I took some debt on a aerobics workout…

Give me 10 more A.R.M. Lifts, now 9 more, now 8 more

Feel The Burn!

Comment by Max
2008-10-14 15:09:41

That’s Mad ^

:)

 
 
Comment by packman
2008-10-14 12:42:06

Faith and persistence:

Not sure if anyone remembers - but I was sweating about 3-4 weeks ago, when the bailout plan was first proposed. The Dow jumped up 360 on Friday, my shorts (homebuilders mainly) were getting hammered, and I had some weird stuff going on in the middle of the night with my trading account that appeared to take my cash reserves to near zero (though this certainly isn’t my primary savings account - I didn’t relish the thought of getting margin calls though). I decided to hold on tight and fight goldilocks, and sold some longs instead of covering the shorts.

Well - fast forward to now. I’m up about 90% since then, with the general market being down about 30%. Sometimes persistence pays off.

FWIW I am closing out many of the shorts though - those stand to lose if we go into hyperinflation. Gotta keep the homebuilder shorts though - hyperinflation or not I think that most of them will be going bankrupt in the end. I’m amazed that more haven’t already.

Comment by CA renter
2008-10-15 03:50:26

Congratulations, packman! :)

It’s not easy being short (or long!) in this market.

I just took all our positions off today and am going to take some time off for a bit. The past couple of months have been very wild, indeed (best returns of the year, but huge moves up and down in the process).

 
 
Comment by Insurance Guy
2008-10-14 12:42:22

I remember seeing a post that when Mexico bailed out its banks 15 years ago, that people holding mortgages thought that they should get a bailout and just quit paying their mortgages. People watching this bailout of banks are just not going to see the morality of continuing to pay their mortgages and will just stop. If the cause of the bailout was mortgages gone bad, then the bailout was a failure as it will cause more bad mortgages.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-14 12:47:12

Alad’s PPT Cruiser pulled up to Wall St., yet again, this afternoon. Unfortunately, the aftermarket blower burned out the top end yesterday, and the engine’s smoking. They’re throttling up with everything they’ve got, but the hesitation in the motor is undeniable. It remains to be seen if it will survive till close.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 13:06:08

The 4-banger powering our economy, can barely fit into the engine compartment of the PPT Cruiser…

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-10-14 13:23:19

I would throw in replacing the ignition distributor. Just got the news on my Toyota. The ignition distributor needs to be replaced. Expensive litte part.

Comment by Shizo
2008-10-14 13:51:11

That happened to my LX470. Now I drive a 2001 Subaru Outback. They cost about the same… The part vs. the car.
:)

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 12:52:55

There is something very odd about Fannie Mae’s stock chart today. Can anyone shed light on what is up?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 13:22:39

Bulletin U.S. stocks finish lower; Nasdaq paces decline, down 3.5%

Lazy Portfolios
Build Your Own ‘Lazy Portfolio!’ 6 Rules
Yes, you can build a million dollar nestegg, its simple, you can do it

ARROYO GRANDE, CA. (MarketWatch) – “Investing should be dull,” says Nobel Economist Paul Samuelson, “investing should be more like watching paint dry or grass grow. If you want excitement, take $800 and go to Las Vegas” or Wall Street. Investing really is simple and easy, anyone can do it. You can. Here’s how.

Several years ago I started tracking the best portfolios I could find in America, simple portfolios being used by Nobel Prize winners, millionaires, conservative portfolio managers, neuroeconomists as well as average Main Street investors. We even found some in books like Investing for Dummies and The Idiot’s Guide to Investing.

We discovered something amazing. They were all saying the exact same thing: All you need is a simple, well-diversified portfolio of just three-to-eleven funds, low-cost, no-load index funds that will create a long-term winner through bull and bear markets. And you do it with no market timing, no active trading and no commissions. “Lazy Portfolios” are that simple. So what about the other thousands of stocks, bonds and mutual funds being hustled by brokers? Forget them!

Comment by Max
2008-10-14 15:15:10

Investing should be a dull pain.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-14 13:43:42

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

George Bernard Shaw

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 14:34:40

Excellent! I propose a toast to unreasonable men the world over…

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:43:01

Unreasonable men don’t always change the world for the better.

Take a look at Hitler or Stalin.

I like GBS but this quote should be understood within context of the “upper crust” Brit that the Irishman wanted to become.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 22:08:03

Point taken and fully appreciated. I won’t mention the list of fellows whose names and images are currently popping into mind, but it is clear that unreasonable men are more easily capable of untold destruction than progress.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 15:18:40

There is a joke that goes like this:

Dumb people learn through their own mistakes, smart people learn through mistakes of others. Therefore, smart people learn from dumb people!

 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-10-14 13:44:45

At Indian call centers, another view of U.S.

As economy falters, debt collectors hear stories from the land of plenty

The subculture of call centers tends to foster a cult of America, an over-the-top fantasy where hopes and dreams are easily accomplished by people who live in a brand-name wonderland of high-paying jobs, big houses and luxury getaways.

But collection agents at this call center outside New Delhi are starting to see the flip side of that vision: a country hobbled by debt and filled with people scared of losing their jobs, their houses and their cars.

“Lately, 25-year-old Americans are telling me that they are declaring themselves bankrupt,” said Chaturvedi, raising her eyebrows in shock. “These days the situation is so emotional, so fragile. We have to have so much empathy and patience.”

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 15:39:48

At a recent wedding, I was talking to an Indian woman who started asking me all these questions about the US and consumers, etc. She wanted to “understand” how it worked.

So I gave her the five-minute spiel including ratios of who’d borrowed how many multiples of their income, etc. Her eyes lit up with recognition.

Turns out she was a non-practicing accountant in India and soon we were off and running chatting it up for hours about all of the stuff we discuss on the blog endlessly.

At the end she simply said, “I’ve always suspected it, and now I get it.”

 
 
Comment by lostcontrol
2008-10-14 15:23:23

Well, you all got what you wanted—Housing prices will decline….

So, now, who wants to buy a house?
Thought I would ask…

I am afraid that the govt. will pay you to buy a house, but is that what you really want?

rotflmao (rolling on the floor laughing my A@@ off)

Wish you all the best in your new home purchases, Knife catchers!!!

 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-14 15:32:48

Hip Tips 2009

1. Grow your own weed and potatoes, corn, peas and tomatoes, spices, peppers, etc.

2. Live within your budget. Save money.

3. Try fasting more often

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-14 15:41:08

The first wave of foreclosures caused by the subprime mortgages resets, passed, leaving the world financial system in ruins. The second wave - the one caused by resets of the Alt-A mortgages, is coming soon.

What will the Alt-A crisis look like? It’s one thing to imagine the somewhat poor people being foreclosed on and evicted, but it’s a totally different thing to imagine the high-salaried middle class starting to default.

What will the smug SF Bay Area look like in 2010? I personally have friends and coworkers with fat-ass Alt-A morgages - what’s going to happen to them? They bought partly because of “future appreciation”, and now are underwater (granted, by a little), and the debt is crushing them. Will they stoically continue to give away their paychecks to the albatrosses?

Any ideas?

 
Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 15:43:41

“This healing process is going to go on and on until it’s done and there isn’t a force on the planet that can stop it” Rick Santelli

Hard to believe CNBC did not have this censored.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-10-14 21:35:32

“The floggings will continue until morale improves!”

 
Comment by Mary Lee
2008-10-15 02:05:45

Just a different type of hedging. CNBC lets Mr. Santelli slip in the odd clue, knowing it will be disregarded, disbelieved, but by those who actually grasp a few of the salient facts. This way, when it really hits the fan, they can point back to him and remind the sound-byte ADD folk, “See? We told you.”

 
 
Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 15:54:06

Reshaping Wall Street
Insight on some of the big game changing events that have happened on Wall Street, with John Gutfreund, former Salomon Brothers CEO/Gutfreund & Co. president
Mon. Sept. 15 2008
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=856528913

Considering he brought down Salomon and was accused of the same charges, this is funny. His analysis of Bank of America taking over Merrill is spot on.

Some of his other observations.”Would you want to think about this (economic collapse) as a possibility” No way did anybody think about the possibility.

 
Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-14 16:02:35

For those of you who don’t watch tv,
broadcast shows are now buzzing all about socialism.

What exactly is socialism?
I was busy the year I took those classes.
How will socialism help me?
Is it good for house prices or what?

 
Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 16:09:04

“…The terrible thing — after all this pain — is that the U.S. equity market is not even cheap. You would imagine that, given the amount of panic, that it would be. But it started from such a high level in 2000 that it still has not yet worked its way down to trend, although it is getting close. But the really bad news is that great bubbles in history always overcorrected. So although the fair value of the S&P today may be about 1025, typically bubbles overcorrect by quite a bit, possibly by 20%. That is very discouraging.

What about equities outside the U.S.?

Things are getting cheaper. We score the EAFE [the Europe, Australasia and Far East Index] as absolutely cheap, and it’s offering a 7% real annual return over seven years. Emerging-market equities are a bit cheaper, and we see a 9.5% annual real return over the same period….”
Jeremy Grantham

One very good interview.

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122367853796824483.html?page=1

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 17:31:50

You forgot to add this part:

The problem, though, is that we have so much downside momentum, so many financial problems and so many interlocking relationships, that it is hard to imagine this crisis subsiding because stock prices are digging in their heels and approaching fair value.

I’m with him. I think we will be able to pick up global equities + other assets on the cheap later.

Now, is not the time.

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-14 18:10:36

There it is. Tune in this time next year.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 18:13:19

Yeppers.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 19:11:10

I didn’t forget, I didn’t want to glom the whole page. Its not like glomming a trade. lol

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 22:06:52

But it was the most important part of that page. ;-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-10-14 19:08:45

My view is, “Forget inflation, guys.” This is serious, the real McCoy, and you don’t have to worry about little things like inflation. Global growth will slow down, commodities will be weaker for a while, and inflation is a thing of the past. Now we are talking about getting the financial machinery to work and just keeping [gross domestic product] grinding along.

Jeremy Grantham

Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 19:53:58

I agree with his investments, not his outlook.

“…I’m speaking for the asset-allocation unit at the firm. We have been substantially long the safe-haven currencies. We have been very long the yen and somewhat long the Swiss franc and short sterling, which is one of our favorite bets. We have been short the euro for three months, and slightly long the U.S. dollar. One of the paradoxes is, if the world is worse than people expect, the U.S. dollar will outperform….”

I am very long Yen, very short Euro, and short US Treasuries. I will not get long dollars with $1T in bonds to be sold before Jan 1 and a 2009 budget deficit of $2T. I will not get long Swiss Francs until Credit Suisse and UBS clear up their books. The banks’ dark matter is 2X the size of Switzerland’s GDP. Where is the money going to come from to bail these banks out?

I assume his mildly bullish stance on the dollar is based on past US dollar history, but that history was made when the US had a current account surplus and a minor budget deficit. Countries that have had large current account deficits and large budget deficits have had inflation. The ‘long’ dollar is (to me) a very high risk trade. In the last recession how did the dollar do?

If you are betting on deflation, then I think you are dead wrong. The treasury rates rising during the highest volatility ever recorded already show that deflation is no longer a worry. The 10 yr TIPS that were at 1% last week have widened, I hope you all bought the spread. The risk/reward ratio was huge.

So Mr. Grantham’s investments should be very good for both inflationist and deflationist.

Very long Yen
Short Euro.
And screw around with the dollar and SF and Pound.
Buy stocks in emerging markets
sell US stocks

It is the execution of a plan that is profitable, not the future outlook for the economy.

 
 
 
Comment by hoz
2008-10-14 16:18:35

October 15, 2002

President Hosts Conference on Minority Homeownership
George Washington University
Washington, D.C.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html

Who is to blame? Read this.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 19:28:35

“This is — an ownership society is a compassionate society.

More and more people own their homes in America today. Two-thirds of all Americans own their homes, yet we have a problem here in America because few than half of the Hispanics and half the African Americans own the home. That’s a homeownership gap. It’s a — it’s a gap that we’ve got to work together to close for the good of our country, for the sake of a more hopeful future. We’ve got to work to knock down the barriers that have created a homeownership gap.

I set an ambitious goal. It’s one that I believe we can achieve. It’s a clear goal, that by the end of this decade we’ll increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million families. (Applause.)”

How did he do? Did he increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million families?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:35:16

C’mon Captain Obvious! Even you can do better than that. ;-)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 19:37:05

Remarks by the President to the National Association of Home Builders
Greater Columbus Convention Center
Columbus, Ohio
10:01 A.M. EDT
October 2, 2004

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much. Thank you all.

AUDIENCE: Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

I’ve set another great goal, and that’s to build an ownership society, where everyone has a chance to own a home and a retirement account or health care plan, and to gain a permanent stake in the American Dream. I believe expanded ownership is necessary for a lot of reasons, and one of the main reasons is because the times in which we live and work are changing dramatically. Think about our society today, compared to the society of our grandparents and parents. The workers of our parents’ and grandparents’ generation typically had only one job, one skill, one career, often with one company that provided health care and a pension. Today, people are changing jobs and careers quite often, and the workforce has changed. Women work inside the house and now outside the house. Yet, the fundamental systems of government — the health care plans, the pension plans, the tax code, the worker training programs — were designed for yesterday, not for tomorrow.

I’m running for office to help people be able to realize their dreams by changing the fundamental systems of government. And in times of change, I understand that ownership brings stability to our neighborhoods and security to our families. In changing times, it helps if you own something. It helps bring security to you. By paying a mortgage instead of rent, by putting money into your own retirement plan, you’re storing up wealth for your family. And that nest egg grows in value and you can pass it on to your children and grandchildren.

To build an ownership society, we’ll help even more Americans buy homes. Some families are more than able to pay a mortgage, but just don’t have the savings to put money down. We’ll continue to help them realize their dreams with a down payment. So I’m asking Congress to pass my Zero Down Payment Initiative. We should remove the 3 percent down payment rule for first time home buyers with FHA-insured mortgages. (Applause.) This change could help as many as 150,000 people become homeowners in the first year alone.

To help low- to moderate-income rural families purchase homes, I’ve requested $2.7 billion in loan guarantees, and $1.1 billion for direct loans to low-income borrowers that can’t get bank loans. These initiatives will help thousands in rural communities across America achieve the dream of home ownership. Adding more qualified buyers won’t accomplish much if there are no affordable homes to buy. My administration has set a goal of 7 million more affordable homes in the next 10 years. To help reach that goal, I’ve asked Congress to pass the single family housing affordable tax credit to help you build between 40 and 50 thousand new affordable homes every year. (Applause.)

I understand that the regulatory barriers at the federal, state, and local levels can add as much as 35 percent of the cost to the homes. In order to make sure there’s more affordable homes, we must remove the regulatory barriers on our home builders. (Applause.)

I understand — I understand there’s a need for sensible regulation, but when you have overlapping regulations that send confusing signals, when you have the federal government, the state government, the local governments creating obstacles for home building, it is time to reduce those regulations. (Applause.)

Finally, I believe that the mortgage interest deduction enables more Americans to achieve the goal of home ownership. It is an important part of our tax code. (Applause.)

 
 
Comment by Terry
2008-10-14 16:24:27

I talked to a stock broker friend of mine today about the market. He said that at mid afternoon last friday, there were no more buyers at any price. Over the weekend, a meeting was held at his firm to promote calling all their customers and convincing them the worst was over and some real buys were out there. He basically said they were setting up a suckers rally. UBS wasn’t the only broker promoting a buy attitude. It obviously worked. The main idea was to bring back in the buyers, so the last of the important investors could unload, before 7000 Dow again. Its a casino, with the odds stacked against the small investor.

Comment by Blano
2008-10-14 17:11:08

I remember someone saying on CNBC about a stock or two early in the morning that there was no bid price. Don’t know how often that happens, but I thought that should have been something significant. However, they just breezed on by it like no big deal.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-14 19:39:12

It’s the flip side of the “no short-sell” rule.

I explained it all in gory detail back then, and I’d rather have my glass of wine now than explain it again. :-D

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 21:51:37

‘It’s the flip side of the “no short-sell” rule.’

Would that be properly described as the “no bid” rule?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by CA renter
2008-10-15 04:04:33

Yep, you nailed it, FPSS.

No captive buyers right now, and short-sellers aren’t likely to take more (short) positions just yet, IMHO.

Where will all the buyers come from?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by llcarlos
2008-10-14 17:14:13

Thanks a bunch Bush. Now we Canucks are going to have to give our banks 25 billion dollars. That’s 30 billion CDN dollars!

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2008-10-14 17:21:39

Palm Beach County will get millions to buy foreclosed homes
Palm Beach County will receive $27.7 million of the $4 billion the federal government plans to dole out to state and local governments to help them buy and rehab homes that were foreclosed or abandoned during the real estate crash.

It`s a bummer I have to compete with my own government to buy a house. I don`t even have a printing press.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 19:20:49

COVER STORY: THE ECONOMY
There Is a Silver Lining

The crisis has forced the United States to confront bad habits developed over the past few decades. If we can kick those habits, today’s pain will translate into gains.

By Fareed Zakaria | NEWSWEEK
Published Oct 11, 2008
From the magazine issue dated Oct 20, 2008

Some of us—especially those under 60—have always wondered what it would be like to live through the kind of epochal event one reads about in books. Well, this is it. We’re now living history, suffering one of the greatest financial panics of all time. It compares with the big ones—1907, 1929—and we cannot yet know its full consequences for the financial system, the economy or society as a whole.

 
Comment by vozworth
2008-10-14 19:33:53

a ray of light…

believe in yourself, and try to do the right thing….

save.
plan.
act.
achieve.

expect more from yourself and even more from others.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 21:59:17

You can lead a horse banker to water money, but you can’t make him drink lend. I personally have a hard time understanding how it can be in a banker’s interest to catch falling knives. In due time, when the deleveraging has brought asset prices back in line with affordability, I am sure the banks on whom money has been rained will gladly loan it to any and all qualified borrowers.

Paulson Lacks Leverage to Compel Banks to Put New Cash to Work
By Robert Schmidt and Rebecca Christie

Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) — Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson persuaded nine major U.S. banks to accept $125 billion in government investment. Getting them to lend it out may prove a tougher sell.

The equity stakes the government is purchasing in Citigroup Inc., Morgan Stanley and seven other big institutions come with no guarantee that the investments will spur lending and unfreeze credit markets. Nor do they give the government board seats or any other leverage to demand that that the firms actually use the money to help the economy.

“The truth of the matter is, they can’t put a gun to their head and say you have to lend this money,” said Charles Horn, a former official at the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, part of the Treasury Department, and now a partner at the Mayer Brown law firm in Washington.

Treasury officials acknowledge they can’t force banks to get the taxpayer money into the hands of their customers. Instead, officials are betting that the government’s investment will create conditions where banks have a greater incentive to earn profits from lending than to hoard money to shore up their balance sheets.

“It’s in their economic interest,” said David Nason, the Treasury’s assistant secretary for financial institutions, in an interview with Bloomberg Television. “When you give them a stronger capital position and you also provide a certain amount of government backstop to their funding sources, it’s incumbent upon them to go out and continue to lend.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-14 22:16:13

There has never been a better time to be a surviving big bank. Free $bns to play with for all surviving megabanks on Wall Street!

Latest News: India Sensex drops 2% to 11,253.18 in early minutes

Treasury to invest $100 billon in 9 biggest banks
Citi, J.P. Morgan, Wells Fargo among institutions to get government investment
By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last update: 7:21 p.m. EDT Oct. 14, 2008

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The Treasury agreed to invest more than $100 billion in nine of the largest U.S. banks, including Citigroup, J.P. Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo, in a move that effectively nationalizes part of the country’s financial system.

Treasury is investing $25 billion in senior preferred shares of Citigroup and another $25 billion in the same type of securities issued by J.P. Morgan.

Wells Fargo is getting $25 billion to $20 billion under the same deal, the Wall Street Journal reported.

Bank of America is getting $15 billion, while Merrill Lynch will receive $10 billion from the Treasury.

Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs each agreed to government investments of $10 billion, while Bank of New York Mellon will get $3 billion and State Street will receive $2 billion.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post