Something Of A Pipe Dream In California
The Press Telegram reports from California. “Statewide home prices will continue to slide in 2009, but sales should inch up as affordability improves, according to an economic forecast released Wednesday by the California Association of Realtors. Single-family home prices should dip about 6 percent next year, while sales will rise about 12 percent, said Leslie Appleton-Young, chief economist for the association, which is meeting this week at the Long Beach Convention Center. Appleton-Young did not forecast an immediate upswing in prices, which dipped a stunning 32 percent this year.”
“The association projects median home prices will dip to $358,000 from the current $381,000. Unlike 2005 and 2006, when about 40 percent of first-time buyers put nothing down on their homes, the newest buyers are making down payments. ‘That world is over,’ said Appleton-Young of the zero-down era, ‘and I think we would all agree that’s a very, very positive thing.’”
“Those comments were met with applause at a midday luncheon.”
The Mercury News. “Expensive Bay Area communities…may see fewer home sales and lower prices next year if mortgage financing for big-ticket homes does not improve, an economist for a real estate trade group said this week. ‘The higher end of the market may be a little more at risk than in the past because of the question mark about jumbo financing,’ said Appleton-Young in an interview.”
“Appleton-Young…acknowledges that her calculations for 2008 turned out to be wrong by a longshot. The forecast released in October 2007 called for transactions to fall 9 percent this year compared to 2007; instead they will rise an estimated 12 percent by the end of the year. As for the median price, it was forecast to drop just 4 percent. Now, Appleton-Young estimates the state’s median house price for 2008 will be 31.7 percent lower than in 2007.”
“Why such a big gap in forecast versus reality? ‘What we missed was the credit crunch at the high end in the jumbo market,’ Appleton-Young said.”
“Stephen Levy, an economist at the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy, in Palo Alto, said the Realtors’ forecast for 2009 is ‘at the optimistic end of plausible. Last year they were clearly wrong,’ he said, and he questioned Appleton-Young’s prediction in CAR’s report Wednesday that a California recession could end by the second half of 2009.”
The Press Enterprise. “Association President William E. Brown said a misunderstanding of the depth of the nation’s credit crisis led the association to mistakenly predict a year ago that the median price of a resale home in California would drop only 4 percent in 2008. In its latest forecast, the association assumes that the current economic recession will last through the second quarter of 2009 and then the economy will begin a ‘turnaround.’”
The San Francisco Chronicle. “‘The decline of 6 percent sounds like something of a pipe dream,’ said Chris Thornberg, founder of Los Angeles research firm Beacon Economics. ‘The shear amount of momentum there is … just phenomenal, and I find it hard to believe it’s going to basically bottom out that quickly.’”
“‘The worst is over, but we’re still not out of the woods,’ said Appleton-Young. But all bets are off if the state’s economy - already considered by some economists to be in recession - worsens. ‘This forecast is not taking in a recession with huge job losses,’ Appleton-Young said.”
The Petaluma Argus Courier. “In May, 20-year-old Eddie Gallagher lost his job of less than one year as a window installer. Since then, he’s been ‘looking for work all over town,’ he says. ‘I go to all these interviews, but nobody can give me an idea when they’ll be hiring again, or they never call me back. ‘At this point,’ he says, ‘I’ll take anything, but that’s not looking too good, either.’”
“Ivan Thatcher, 55, is thankful for his steady job of 25 years as chief engineer at Lucasfilm’s Skywalker Ranch. His wife works three days a week for a physical therapist. ‘I’m glad we were able to secure a 30-year fixed loan in 2003 to refinance our house,’ he says. ‘I’d hate to think what would happen if we tried to get one now.’”
‘When asked how much he’s lost in his Lucasfilm 401(k), he jokes, ‘You mean my 201(k)? I’m afraid to look.’”
“Husband-and-wife Realtors Ray and Milli Colaizzi say they saw trouble in the real estate market two years ago. ‘Lenders were offering over 100 percent financing to people who had no business buying a house!’ Milli remembers. ‘When the market’s booming, there’s no shortage of real estate agents, but when there’s a big hit like this, they’re like birds that have flown south. Right now the market is cool, and I don’t mean that in a (good) way.’”
“Lou Sangervasi, 57, the father of three grown sons, is three months away from retiring from the Marin Municipal Water District, where he’s covered by CalPERS. He admits to some trepidation about opting for early retirement, mainly because of his wife, Wilda, who is an elementary school teacher. ‘Teachers, libraries, police and fire are usually the first to be cut in times like these. But,’ he adds optimistically, ‘(this country’s) gone through worse and we’ve pulled through. I’m just angry at the politicians who allowed all this to happen.’”
The Sacramento Bee. “The excesses of the housing boom pushed another major Sacramento home builder and land developer on Wednesday to seek personal bankruptcy protection from creditors. Christo Bardis’ move came six months after his longtime partner in the company, John D. Reynen, sought similar protection. In a statement late Wednesday, Bardis called the bankruptcy filing a ‘difficult decision.’ Bardis said he believes the move is a ‘prerequisite to receiving reciprocal support from those creditors’ and to keep the company alive for future home building.”
The Recordnet. “San Joaquin County home construction remains in the doldrums, based on the latest building permit figures from the Construction Industry Research Board. The frozen home building industry is not unique to San Joaquin County, said Ben Bartolotto, research director for the research board. He said the housing industry may be in worse straits in areas of Southern California, such as Riverside and San Diego counties, where home construction boomed in the early 2000s.”
“‘It’s almost at a fictional level,’ he said Tuesday of the glum picture statewide.”
“Nationwide, rental prices and occupancy rates were ‘virtually unchanged,’ says the report by Novato-based RealFacts, which collects rental data for large apartment complexes. The occupancy rate in Los Angeles County in the July- to-September period was 94.7 percent, down 1 percent over last year. Orange County’s occupancy rate was slightly lower at 94.5 percent.”
“Rents at some apartment buildings rose for Beach Front Real Estate Services, a Long Beach property management and investment firm with 2,500 units across Southern California including the South Bay. ‘I would say they’ve probably gone up a tad,’ said Kyle Kazan, CEO of the real estate firm. ‘But I don’t think that trend will go from the third quarter of this year to the third quarter of next year. I think it
will be reversed. I think we’re seeing the tipping point now.’”
“As the economy weakens, the higher-end apartments have been seeing the greatest softening in tenant demand, Kazan said.”
“‘We had people come in and say, ‘I’ve lost my job and I’ve had to relocate. And I have a lease, but there’s nothing I can do,’ he said. ‘We’ve had people whose work has become more sporadic, so we’ve had to put them on payment plans.’”
The North County Times. “Ambitious efforts aimed at helping thousands of homeowners avoid foreclosure over the last year by the federal and state governments have resulted in little or no effect on local homeowners, brokers said Wednesday. In total, about 372,000 FHASecure refinance loans were issued through Oct. 1, according to FHA data. Of those, 334 were in San Diego County.”
“Also, the loans included all refinancings in which the agency’s loan replaced a private-lender mortgage, said Lemar Wooley, spokesman for agency. That means it is possible some of those 334 loans were not issued to distressed borrowers facing foreclosure. During the time of that program, 17,387 San Diego County properties went to foreclosure, according to ForeclosureRadar.”
“Counting other federal programs such as the Hope Now Alliance, which offers free counseling to homeowners facing foreclosure, the White House has reported 2 million homeowners have been helped.”
“‘That’s absolute baloney,’ said Don Marginson, a mortgage broker in Rancho Bernardo. ‘The FHASecure program they put together was a complete flop.’”
“Hope for Homeowners, the new FHA product calls for a principal writedown to 90 percent of the house’s current value. The new program, launched Oct. 1, faces the same problems that have rendered FHASecure ineffective in dampening the volume of foreclosures, real estate analysts said.”
“‘It’s not mandatory, and the bottom line is, it’s simply not beneficial to the bank to do that. FHA will refinance the loan, but they’re not willing to take on the upside-down market,’ said Dave Hopkins, a mortgage broker in Rancho Bernardo. ‘For example, on a house purchased for $150,000 that is currently worth $100,000, FHA is saying, ‘We’ll do your $100,000 loan, but the bank needs to eat that $50,000 loss.’”
“‘Every day, loans are getting tougher and tougher to get,’ Hopkins said.”
The Press Democrat. “Sonoma County’s housing market has been in transition this year as banks began slashing prices to sell a mounting number of foreclosed homes in the wake of the housing bubble’s collapse. Lenders have taken back about 62 homes each week this year from Sonoma County homeowners who defaulted on their loans. A year ago, the rate was about 13 a week.”
“‘The banks had to sell them because it was a fire sale,’ said Rick Laws, Santa Rosa manager for Coldwell Banker, which prepares The Press Democrat sales report.”
“September’s median of $359,000 is down 42 percent from the peak of $619,000 three years ago. Prices have now fallen 27 consecutive months in year-over-year comparisons. ‘If that’s not a pretty serious correction, I don’t know what is. But that’s the way things should go: clear out the foreclosures and then things should stabilize,’ said Karl Bundesen, owner of Century 21 Bundesen Realty in Petaluma.”
“Lenders have hiked borrowing costs due to lingering uncertainty about the housing market, particularly on jumbo loans needed to purchase homes above $500,000, analysts said. ‘It was a credit crunch and now it’s become a credit freeze. Those buyers are being cut off,’ said Robert Kleinhenz, deputy chief economist for the California Association of Realtors.”
From Asian Week. “When 900 real-estate professionals gathered for the third annual Asian Real Estate Association of America in Los Angeles last weekend, the air was filled with uncertainty. After all, the U.S., and especially California, is experiencing one of the most challenging real-estate markets in recent history.”
“John Lee, AsianWeek real-estate columnist and a top San Francisco real-estate expert, shared this piece of advice on a panel about how to adapt and thrive in the current real estate market: ‘Just ignore the bad news you hear and focus on identifying really motivated buyers and sellers.’”
The Ventura County Star. “Doug Michie, an adjunct professor who teaches real estate finance at California Lutheran University in Thousand Oaks, is less optimistic than CAR economists. He thinks the economy is in a recession that will last at least until the third quarter of 2009. Michie expects Ventura County’s median price, which was $478,410 in August, to fall to $450,000 by the end of the year. He projects the median by this time next year will be $400,000.”
“Banks are going to continue to slash prices on lender repossessions, causing prices to fall, he said. And when homes become more affordable, sales will pick up. ‘I wouldn’t rush out and buy a house,’ he said. ‘Even if prices start to stabilize, they’re not coming up for years.’”
“That’s not comforting to Susannah Abel-Crombie. She put her five-bedroom, three-bath, 2,600-square-foot home in Ojai on the market two years ago for about $839,000. She since has lowered the price to $719,000.”
“‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said. ‘I don’t think that will make much difference. People aren’t buying. I think everyone’s holding their breath and waiting. It’s frustrating.’”
“Abel-Crombie takes solace in knowing that home values are also declining in North Carolina, where she plans to move with her family. She hopes to pay cash for a house there.”
Lady, you’re moving nowhere.
In fact, I don’t think you’re ever getting a loan again.
“Lady, you’re moving nowhere. In fact, I don’t think you’re ever getting a loan again.”
Pussycat, you’re absolutely right about the not gettin’ a loan again, but this pig will eventually be moving into a rental somewhere (probablly North Caroline since it’s cheaper than Cali) when the sheriff comes a callin’, or even more hilarious if she moves in with relatives.
Image the looks on the faces of millions of Californians who planned to sell their overpriced POS to a greater fool and retire to cheaper areas after real estate goes sideways for decades in Cali and they end up working until they die. Priceless.
That’s why I bought my house where I plan to retire as a defensive move a few years ago instead of drinking the kool-aid in the overpriced OC. Neil, please pass the popcorn.
Got diveresified assets?
“Dear tiny 1 day old baby jeebus with the silver halo over your tiny head THANK YOU for the bountiful bursting housing bubble that you have seen fit to grace my beloved Tar Heel state so that the douchebaggery that has befallen my little slice of heaven may forevermore be ended. Amen”
“In its latest forecast, the association assumes that the current economic recession will last through the second quarter of 2009 and then the economy will begin a ‘turnaround.”
I love that word, “assumes”. I guess these folks live on another planet and just fly in from time to time.
Can’t help recalling the spelling of “assume” that I learned in a long-ago journalism class. It’s a fun little math formual that goes like this:
a-s-s = u + me
What does it mean? Assume nothing. Verify everything.
I “assume” I’m a billionaire daily.
Then the hangover kicks in the next morning.
Every time I buy a lottery ticket, I “assume” I’m going to win. And I’m always a little surprised when I don’t.
People might say I’m math challenged, but I’ll show them … someday.
my wife calls it stupidity tax, but we both play a couple dollars every few months for fun….
Let’s try last qtr 2011 or 2012? Maybe Hussein Obama can steal (redistribute) some money and give you a loan. hehehehehehehe
Don’t be a Republican, clam. It’s just a part of the general pathology.
You don’t have to be a reb clam to see that Obama will redistribute wealth, but that doesn’t mean that Mccain is the answer. Unfortunatly we are screwed either way this time around. I have a dream, a dream that having 2 idiots this time will get us someone worthwhile next time around.
I am a Democrat, I am a Republican, I have no one to follow this time and I don’t want to lead. I guess I am just going to get out of the way for the next four years.
PC, I hope you’re a parody troll, and not irredeemably juvenile and stupid.
“In its latest forecast, the association assumes that the current economic recession will last through the second quarter of 2009 and then the economy will begin a ‘turnaround.”
None of the mainstream media reporters are willing to touch on the economic impact of 80+ million boomers moving into retirement and trimming-back their consumptive spending.
A tale of two NARs…
One NAR in the public spotlight: “we welcome a return to affordability and sustainable price levels!”
Another NAR in the more intimate setting of an open house with a prospective buyer: “ya, know it’s gonna bounce back - you’ll double your money” wink wink, nudge nudge
“‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said. ‘I don’t think that will make much difference. People aren’t buying. I think everyone’s holding their breath and waiting. It’s frustrating.’”
It’s been for sale for 2 years! You are ‘holding their breath and waiting.’ Try dropping the price until it does sell.
Hope : The Ultimate FB Strategy™.
JT : The Ultimate Outcome™.
ROTFL
Lying: The standard sales strategy ™
Those with money are all talking about how its smart to wait until prices have climbed 6 to 9 months… That’s not going to happen this winter… I predict 2009 will see the greatest price declines in California history since the gold rush went bust.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
LOL!!
“‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said. ‘I don’t think that will make much difference. People aren’t buying. I think everyone’s holding their breath and waiting. It’s frustrating.’”
A LOT of people have this attitude: it doesn’t matter if I drop the price, because no one is buying. Anyone can sell a house in this market, if they just lower their price enough. If this woman doesn’t even think she can get $600k for her house, she has no business having it on the market for $700k.
“‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said.”
Something tells me that this is right about what the outstanding mortgage balance plus the realt-whore commission adds up to. I’m thinking short sale is the only option. Congratulations FB. You turned out to be the greatest fool. Run straight to foreclosure (especially if dumbo jumbo loan(s) tied to LIBOR). Do not collect REFI or HELOC $$.
Got diversified assets?
Yes, her price drop over two entire years is only 14%.
What is she thinking?
I think LAY better start factoring in 10%+ unemployment into her predictions. It don’t matter squat what affordability levels will
reach when you don’t have a job.
Sorry, should of read furhter…
‘This forecast is not taking in a recession with huge job losses,’ Appleton-Young said.”
…..who in the heck would make a prediction right now without taking this into account? Ah yes, a real estate shill, that’s who.
Let’s JT her.
You bring the JT, I’ll bring the opera glasses.
“I’ll bring the opera glasses” LOL!
Yes, an activity perhaps best observed from a safe distance!
WTF is L-A-Y still employed!? Give Eddie Gallagher the damn job already. ( How much worse could the kid be? ) And that’s who I really feel awful for here. When the seeds of this were being sown, Eddie had a crush ( on his teacher ) and now he has to walk miles before he can get picked up by the bus.
Not… exactly conducive to picking up chicks. Guys like this wind up in the service ( and then graduate to becoming bitter Bears on Bear Blogs! )
I just want to see it upclose, personal and bloody.
Well then, fasty, along with the opera glasses you should bring a microscope. And, hey, why not? A mass spectrometer. Capture allll the details.
I wanted to come back to this because the phrase is not only clever, it sends a very clear message. Let me give you a few quick examples that will straighten your friends out real fast:
“I’ve got a half gallon of Tequila with your name on it!”
Great, I’ll bring the opera glasses!
“Haven’t you always wanted to ‘try’ sky diving?”
Great, I’ll bring the opera glasses! (Ker-splat)
“We really should join the demonstration”
Now you try!
I’m calling my dad. He can lend me those instruments.
Yep, he owns them personally free and clear. No debt on those babies!
Don’t forget the illegals that came in and bought homes. A lot of them are starting to go back.
I don’t think unemployment will reach that high, merely because a lot of the jobs were being handled by illegals.
Of course, if illegals don’t buy or can’t buy houses, say ‘bye-bye’ to a good chunk of the market.
“Don’t forget the illegals that came in and bought homes. A lot of them are starting to go back.”
Ok, flame away, but I gotta vent.
Here in FB Hot Zone of Central Valley Calif. There’s a nauseating remnant of our numerous Hispanic friends who’ve bought and bailed. First off, let me say that everyone has their own taste, and some may think my taste in “decor” is completely lacking…but Holy S**t!!
I CANNOT BELIEVE THE INCREDIBLY LAME, WILD, UNREAL INTERIOR PAINT SCHEMES LEFT BY THESE FOLKS IN TONS OF THE FORECLOSED HOMES HERE IN THE VALLEY!!!
Ok, deep breath…calming down…
Nice, well-built attractive older craftsman homes were slap-on painted with wild oranges, yellows, tangerines, funky wine-reds, weird pinkish browns…and on and on (all in the same house!). Fooking unreal!!
Granted, let’s be fair and not forget Joe and Jane whitebread’s color schemes in the 70’s. They too were bad, ok, reallly bad, and it’s only paint, but Holy Christ, these paint schemes left by our FB’d friends from down South are dumbfoundingly loud, scary and comical all at the same time.
Prospective buyers better bring a barf bag when they go lookin’ at these babies, cause there’s gonna be some yakkin’.
DOC
Ever been to the actual living neighbor hoods of Tijuana, says it all.
Buy and bail worked for the family across from a friend of mine. They refi’d to 100%, then quickly loaded up the trucks, with Mexico plates, and bailed. The bankers got their fees, what do they care.
Happened over a year ago and the house is still empty.
She’s just an overpaid bag of hot, arrogant (and ignorant) air…. full of herself… she’s been wrong since I’ve discovered who she is and is still wrong today.. she must be running out of lipstick for this pig called housing..
affordability has definitley hit cape coral where I live. 3/2/2 car garage homes for 50k but who cares nothing is affordable when you dont have a job. Its funny I bought my 2/2 home in 1998 for 68 grand now its worth less 10 years later.
Wow, that’s amazing! I didn’t realize any place was that affordable already. Almost enough to make me consider moving…. Nah. I’ll wait a few years for affordability to arrive in my town.
In the area where I am looking the home prices have a LONG WAY to fall before they are affordable.
Between 2000 and 2007 the median household income has only increased $4,000 while median home prices have risen $58,000.
Glad to see you back posting.
edgewaterjohn,
Precisely, they’re driving us all quite mad. When the RE market was all hot & bothered every home ( even w/ bars on windows ) had HUGE potential for appreciation.
( Now they’re pitching “shelter” ) but they can’t pull people off the fence with that because a rental offers “shelter” as well? We just have to wait for their eyelids to tire.
They don’t have that many people ‘on the fence’ as they think they do.
When in places up to 40% of the buyers were ‘investors’, getting back to a normal demand curve still means far less sales than before.
When a person bought 10 homes for speculation, nothing will make that person buy 10 homes again.
There is a large percentage of expected sales that will not happen simply because the rampant speculation will soon be gone.
SMF,
So right. As Ben loves to point out, a great deal of “demand” was actually “phantom” demand. With as many people chomping at the bit to have their dream home built even before their “old” home sold, it’s easy to see how things got distorted.
Don’t look for that again either.
Don’t forget these stories:
You buy two houses, wait for them to be build, and then select the one you want to live in and sell the other for a profit.
Buy a house/condo for your student while they are attending college. Sell at a profit after college is done and use proceeds to cancel that debt.
Did I miss any others?
SMF,
Pffftt, how could I have forgotten! Yes, the “Free College Program”. I often suspected that a lot of people that bought lofts/condos etc. were so deluded that they actually thought they might just keep it after Sissy graduates for, you know, um… “naughty time”?
No seriously, I’ve had people tell me they were buying one just so the could “have an ‘affair’ with their wife”! You’ll have to forgive Portlanders ( we don’t have a lot to look forward to.. )
“Buy a house/condo for your student while they are attending college. Sell at a profit after college is done and use proceeds to cancel that debt”.
That is still going on here in S.Carolina, but to a lesser degree. Two months ago a very nice older home several blocks from us sold for $475,000.00 we had hoped a family bought it. Wrong answer, 5 college kids moved in, each with SUV’s. Turns out Granny in Connecticut bought it for the little darlings.
Why do you need an apartment to f*ck your wife? Don’t you have a bed? Or a nearby motel? Or the back of the truck?
No, seriously, this is the best rationalization about speculation I have seen in my life. As in it’s totally original and I hadn’t thought of it before. (and I have a damn good imagination, I might add.)
My mind has expanded. WHOA!!!
SMF wrote:
Don’t forget these stories:
You buy two houses, wait for them to be build, and then select the one you want to live in and sell the other for a profit.
Buy a house/condo for your student while they are attending college. Sell at a profit after college is done and use proceeds to cancel that debt.
Ghad… I had SO many coworkers/friends/acquaintances on the brink of BK thanks to these award winning strategies. They haven’t yet capitulated. They’re tapping into the 401k’s, living a horrid lifestyle, etc. (hey… now why is the market going crazy… hmmm…)
As to buying a place for a ‘within the marriage affair’… priceline is so much more fun.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Faster,
Oh myself as well! Again I attribute it to water-logged Oregonians figuring out ever new ways to kill a rainy Saturday afternoon?
More typically the logic I was served would be more along the lines of “a place to you know, “de-compress” after a tough week” ( pause ) wink, wink.
So I suppose depending on the speculator’s overall self image of their status, it’s left to ‘your’ imagination as to whether that would be an affair WITH the wife ( or just an affair? ) That’s just how crazy this thing got.
The-hyphenated-one’s new math:
+12
-6
—-
-32
“Statewide home prices will continue to slide in 2009, but sales should inch up as affordability improves, according to an economic forecast released Wednesday by the California Association of Realtors. Single-family home prices should dip about 6 percent next year, while sales will rise about 12 percent, said Leslie Appleton-Young, chief economist for the association, which is meeting this week at the Long Beach Convention Center. Appleton-Young did not forecast an immediate upswing in prices, which dipped a stunning 32 percent this year.”
I will bet LAY and anyone else at NAR everything I own that prices will drop more than 6% in 2009. In fact, I will bet it will drop more than double NAR’s “forecast”. Think they will take me up? Nah, I don’t think so. What a bunch of liars and thieves.
“That’s not comforting to Susannah Abel-Crombie. She put her five-bedroom, three-bath, 2,600-square-foot home in Ojai on the market two years ago for about $839,000. She since has lowered the price to $719,000.”
“‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said. ‘I don’t think that will make much difference. People aren’t buying. I think everyone’s holding their breath and waiting. It’s frustrating.’”
“Abel-Crombie takes solace in knowing that home values are also declining in North Carolina, where she plans to move with her family. She hopes to pay cash for a house there.”
=======================================
Somewhere in North Carolina, a house is waiting for a Californian to buy it for cash, but I wouldn’t hold my breath, waiting.
“That’s not comforting to Susannah Abel-Crombie. She put her five-bedroom, three-bath, 2,600-square-foot home in Ojai on the market two years ago for about $839,000. She since has lowered the price to $719,000.”
I haven’t said this in a while……
OMIGOD THOSE PRICES ARE INSANE.
Reminds me of this part of the original post:
“Why such a big gap in forecast versus reality? ‘What we missed was the credit crunch at the high end in the jumbo market,’ Appleton-Young said.”
Leslie, you also missed the part about the prices. They’re still too high.
Arizona Slim,
I know you’re not buying into that, nor is anyone else. Jumbo’s for Dumbo’s has been in genuine peril for at LEAST a year!
Yes Leslie some of us remember when Angelo Mo’ was still a player, pleading to blow the roof off the ceiling on FHA loans. Or did she conveniently assume we’d all forgotten about that?
Blano,
I was born and raised here and I too can say OMIGOD THOSE PRICES ARE INSANE.
““‘I could drop it to $600,000,’ she said. ‘I don’t think that will make much difference.”
Honey, that’s probably the single-most cogent thought you’ve had since buying that over-priced turd.
DOC
She could leverage her experience by opening up a new, trendy fashion and financial advice center: Abel-Crombie and Crunch
–\
California sinking…
The LATEST TREND (annual rate):
3. Los Angeles -31.7%
5. Sacramento -17.7%
4. San Diego, CA -28.3%
1. San Fran, CA -46.7%
2. San Jose, CA -36.7%
Phoenix, AZ -32.6%
For transactions that originated during Jun-Aug.
Jas
These days all the happy news brings a welcome tear to my eyes.
It’s like the Ultimate Natural High™.
Thx for the post.
“Ivan Thatcher, 55, is thankful for his steady job of 25 years as chief engineer at Lucasfilm’s Skywalker Ranch. His wife works three days a week for a physical therapist. ‘I’m glad we were able to secure a 30-year fixed loan in 2003 to refinance our house,’ he says. ‘I’d hate to think what would happen if we tried to get one now.’” When asked how much he’s lost in his Lucasfilm 401(k), he jokes, ‘You mean my 201(k)? I’m afraid to look.’”
There is no 401(k). There is only do.
Retire soon you won’t.
Luv,
Jen
Just wait until the middle of Jan when everyone receives their Q4 401k statement. Hide the woman and children…
Most people are in denial about their finances. I know I’ve been guilty of this when times are tough. Most are not going online to check their 401k balances - it’s much too painful, especially combined with the quickly deflating home values. But for those brave enough to open and look at their statements in Jan, it’s going to be very ugly.
Oh that line is a hold over from the dot bomb days. If he was that close, and that serious about retiring he should have had a lot more in bonds and CASH anyway.
He got to suck up to George Lucas all those years and that’s “reward” enough!
In just a couple weeks I am already far beyond sick and tired of hearing fellow Alt-A Bay Area citizens, who are nearing retirement and perhaps in their late 50’s, 60’s and 70’s… complaining about their 401(k)’s.
These are all people who would call themselves “intelligent”, but who apparently just were not paying attention to, or learning about, diversification when it was time to allocate their savings.
What a bunch of clowns.
No doubt. He has a 30-year mortgage — and he’s 55. He’ll be paying it until he’s 85? Doesn’t sound ready for retirement to me.
Joe Schmoe,
Long time no see. Hope you’re well! Correct, I’m ‘only’ 49 and I’m obsessed with having my mortgage paid off. If possible, before… I’m retired. To be fair though, CA is a high-stakes game.
I don’t think there’s any such thing as a “little mistake” when it comes to personal finance in Cali.
DinOR & Joe Schmoe-
We’re paying cash for our next home. A paid off home is essential to aging in place. You still have utilites, maintenance, taxes, living expenses, medical and dental, insurance, and an occasional black swan.
Americans sure got fat, lazy, and stupid. Why can’t people think past the present? A paid off home is a no brainer.
I know in So Ca (where I live) it’s all about show, but come on… how about the substance.
DinOR,
Good to hear from you! Hope things are going well. I still visit the blog almost every day but haven’t had time to post much lately. Glad to see you are still here too.
<>
So true! “Sucker’s game” is more like it, IMO, at least these days. Sure, RE tends to appreciate — and depreciate — a lot here, but unless you time the market just right, and resit the temptation to HELOC away your gains, it’ s hard to make that appreciation benefit you. IMO what most people end up with is a POS tract home and a lengthy commute.
You are right that there is no such thing as a little mistake here.
“Why such a big gap in forecast versus reality? ‘What we missed was the credit crunch at the high end in the jumbo market,’ Appleton-Young said.”
Which still makes you a stupid b*tch because even a moron could’a seen that one coming.
I begin to suspect that next year around this time, she will acknowledge she missed the prime and Alt-A resets…
The other parts she missed were the DATA and the OBVIOUS. What a little, chubby fartsack she is.
The Mercury News has a section today that states that rents are higher - an increase of 5.2% in Santa Clara County — highest rents in the nation, yet occupancy is falling qtr. over qtr.
I’m at a loss to understand why landlords think that renters are able or willing to pay $1800 a month for a POS 2 bedroom. Its young people who typically rent. They flat out don’t earn that. They’ll be living like depressed nations soon — 10 to an apartment……….:-)
The Mercury news always quotes asking prices for rents, not actual renting prices. I don’t see an increase at all this year, although there was a slight increase last year.
the newest buyers are making down payments. ‘That world is over,’ said Appleton-Young of the zero-down era, ‘and I think we would all agree that’s a very, very positive thing.
Isn’t LAY the one that made the phrase ‘liberate your equity’ famous? Whether or not, what a two-faced beeyatch. “In the bag” Gary has been silent for awhile. Is he in a bag, body that is?
Now I know times are really tough. Just heard on the radio that Playboy is closing it’s DVD business. If they are hurting, BBAADD times are here.
Hef is looking like an old prune these days. I bet he’s “waxing his carrot” (Carlin) a lot these days. I wonder how much the playboy mansion has deflated these days. Double pun intended.
Deflating Double-D’s, babeeeeeee!!!
I always heard that the Playboy mansion was kind of dump on the inside–threadbare carpet, cracks in the walls, etc.
I also read long ago that the Playboy company, which actually owns and pays to maintain it, has long been losing money on it and been desperate to get Hef to agree to close it, but he refuses. Maybe “The Girls Next Door” show actually produced a little revenue from the place, but it seems like a serious white elephant.
I read that Hef paid $1,000,000 for the mansion in 1970, a record for LA at the time….
When you think about the land alone in that location, that doesn’t sound like a really crazy price; but the cost to maintain the place, especially with all that staff on call 24/7, has to be insane. Hef’s an old man who’s gotten used to living a certain way; but it doesn’t seem like keeping the place now makes a lot of sense. “Downsizing” from the Playboy mansion wouldn’t necessarily mean moving to 2500 sq ft new construction 4/2 on a golf course in Bradenton . . .
“That world is over,’ said Appleton-Young of the zero-down era, ‘and I think we would all agree that’s a very, very positive thing.”
For the limited few that actually HAVE a down-payment, yes, it’s a positive thing.
However, for you and the greedy minions of your so-called profession who are hoping to again make an easy buck, it’s a well-deserved swift kick in the nuts.
DOC
When I left CA, the rent on our POS 2 bd apt was $1150. It was never raised in 4 years. In fact it was lowered. We made decent money and that was high enough. We were 30 miles from Santa Clara. I saw a lot of real POS apts in the Santa Clara area that made ours look like palace. What the F&CK do these people think?
renters are able or willing to pay $1800 a month for a POS 2 bedroom
How terrible is it that I actually WANT a recession in the bay area? Shame on me!
“I actually WANT a recession in the bay area?”
If Venture Capital and R&D budgets are cut you may get one.
I thought we already had one. Unemployment has been rising for what, 2 years now?
I don’t know about R&D budgets, but I do suspect the Venture Idiot community is entering a period of serious pullback, as there are no IPO’s and M&A’s are shot.
Their business is going to be as bad as it has ever been.
It’s been a while since I’ve been on but continue to follow the rocket down the elevator shaft. I live in Orange County ,Calif and the people around me ask how I knew this economy and real estate market were going to fall apart. All I said was most people were to busy spending their equity to notice what was going on around them.
Mostly I got an UGH! If this is how much people know then we will have other bubbles again in something.
“‘The worst is over, but we’re still not out of the woods,’ said Appleton-Young. But all bets are off if the state’s economy - already considered by some economists to be in recession - worsens. ‘This forecast is not taking in a recession with huge job losses,’ Appleton-Young said.”
You should EXPECT a recession with huge job losses.
You should EXPECT that since the Central Banks are in frozen mode, unemployment could go to 50%.
Factor that
Much as I like your passion, I deem your numbers to be a little faulty.
Even in the depths of the GD, unemployment went to something like 23% or so.
The Keynesian response is likely to keep the numbers under that but I would not be surprised if they go to 15% or so.
50%? Extremely unlikely.
FPSS,
I agree that 50% is extremely unlikely . . . .But what would be the societal impacts if that were to occur?
That sounds like severe civil unrest territory to me.
Thoughts?
I thought unemployment went to ~30% in the GD. That’s just from memory, though–reading Galbraith. I could be remembering incorrectly. Do you have a source for the 23%, FPSS?
Wikipedia is not a bad source.
You have to cull a few sources and actually do “long division”, ponder that!
Searched, and found 25% in a couple of places; wikipedia says “US unemployment rates of over 25% by 1933″.
Yes, national unemployment in the Depression was calculated as 25% but all farmers and self employed were counted as employed even if they made no money.
While the percentage of farmers has decreased in the past 75 years, I suspect that the percentage of 1099 workers has not.
Don’t think that the government’s intervenist response to the GD wasn’t massive as well. They wouldn’t have called it Keynesian back then, but it looked all the same.
Oooooooh!!! Give this woman (or man) a prize.
Can I buy you a drink?
I’ll bring the opera glasses
“The association projects median home prices will dip to $358,000 from the current $381,000. Unlike 2005 and 2006, when about 40 percent of first-time buyers put nothing down on their homes, the newest buyers are making down payments. ‘That world is over,’ said Appleton-Young of the zero-down era, ‘and I think we would all agree that’s a very, very positive thing.’”
Has anyone at C.A.R. thought about how many current people who have a strong reason to buy right now, when prices are falling at double-digit annual rates, also have ultrasound job security plus, say, a 10 pct downpayment of $35,800 available to purchase a home for $358,000?
I thought not…
Prof,
Last night CNBC had a former FED guy suggesting that the FED should go ultra low 1/2% or “even a tenth” yep 0.1%
Logic?
If rates are low enough “it will force” people to buy stocks!
-
I thought of you and hoped you were not watching and eating pretzels at the same time because I do so enjoy your posts.
I’ll try to find a link.
I am wondering where in the Fed’s mandate it says anything about “forcing” households to buy stocks. Can anyone provide a link to this information?
Link
http://seekingalpha.com/article/100125-three-reasons-for-bear-fast-money-recap-10-15-08
Wayne Angell Discusses the Fed - Fannie Mae (FNM), Freddie Mac (FRE)
Wayne Angell, a former Federal Reserve governor, joined the traders to discuss what can be down now to fix the problems in the financial system. He says the first step is that “Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson needs to admit he made a mistake in taking Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shareholders to zero.” He explained that the system will not be fixed by piling money into bank stocks. The second step, he says, is to “cut the federal funds rate so low that the stock market becomes attractive.” He explained we can’t survive deflation in house prices on top of a decline in equity prices.
–
He actually said a tenth of a point.
Yes, Prof, they REALLY ARE that dumb.
Did Angell provide evidence that the Fed’s mandate supports this policy?
When interest rates on CD’s went to 1.25%, I decided I was prepared for them to go to zero and I still would not buy into the stock market. My decision still stands.
That can’t be real stupidity. The guy is probably just hoping to get his own assets back up to a high price so he can sell them (along with all the gold he has back at the Bat Cave) sometime before he dies.
What was Paulson supposed to do? Reward regular people for betting on a bailout? Hell no, only his closest personal friends should qualify for that sort of a guarantee.
Not gonna work.
Even if the whole world slashes rates to 0%, you still have to pay back the debt.
Not happening. There is too much debt in relation to current income.
Nothing changes.
Who would buy? Who would want to buy? Heck with the way the stock market has gone down, people have been so burned, why would any one be stupid to want to lose more money. Sounds like to me the former Fed guy is SOS (stuck on stupid). BTW he didn’t happen to say how much he has lost in the stock market?
If rates are low enough “it will force” people to buy stocks!
Good lord where do they find these morons? The psych ward? As we all know, you cannot force people to borrow. Think Japan.
You can’t force banks to borrow, either (think Wall Street).
Barring sending green berets everywhere and literally sticking guns to the heads of everybody, of course.
Imagine, in the future, as everyone defaulted yet again on those forced loas:
Deficiency Judge - But sir, nobody stuck a gun to your head to take out that $1.2M NINJA super-leveraged-option-arm-no-payment-until-the-second-coming-of-Christ-loan.
FB (sighing): Uh, actually, your honor, they did…
prof bear
this morning you were skeptical of the idea that san diego prices could go as low as $129,000 (inflation adjusted).
Remember that the vast majority of san diego east of 805 is rather undesireable. If you spend all your time near the beach, you might think san diego is special and wont go below $300,000. But interior San Diego County is not so different than the central valley or inland empire.
I live in San Diego.
I have no desire whatsoever to live west of 805.
Hell, I don’t even really want to live west of 125.
The only time I go to the beach is to go fishing.
And I hate North County. If I wanted to live in da OC, I’d move there. The traffic is better, and the attitude is the same.
EC, Baybee!!
–Shannon
“Single-family home prices should dip about 6 percent next year, while sales will rise about 12 percent, said Leslie Appleton-Young, chief economist for the association, which is meeting this week at the Long Beach Convention Center.”
Let me guess: They just made these numbers up without bothering to refer to any data, right?
6% is in the bag!
“Michie expects Ventura County’s median price, which was $478,410 in August, to fall to $450,000 by the end of the year. He projects the median by this time next year will be $400,000.”
(400,000/478,410-1)*100 = -16.3 pct.
Hmmmm… It looks like Michie actually looked at some data, while the C.A.R. pulled their 6 pct decline number out of thin air. I wonder which estimate will prove more accurate?
I wonder if she bought during the boom, or even HELOC’d?
“…he questioned Appleton-Young’s prediction in CAR’s report Wednesday that a California recession could end by the second half of 2009.”
Did she pull this guess out of the air as well? Because the early 1990s recession in California went on for much longer than for the rest of the country — more drinking usually implies a bigger hangover, ya know?
RE: “Lou Sangervasi, 57, the father of three grown sons, is three months away from retiring from the Marin Municipal Water District, where he’s covered by CalPERS. He admits to some trepidation about opting for early retirement, mainly because of his wife, Wilda, who is an elementary school teacher. But,’ he adds optimistically, ‘(this country’s) gone through worse and we’ve pulled through
Well spoken from someone whose total household income is supported by the tax extractions on the work or home of someone else.
hd75man:
I don’t get what you’re mad about. They work for a living. Yes, their customers happen to be members of society who have agreed to pay through taxes instead of paying directly BECAUSE IT’S CHEAPER THAT WAY. Why does that bother you so much?
“Lou Sangervasi, 57, the father of three grown sons, is three months away from retiring from the Marin Municipal Water District, where he’s covered by CalPERS. He admits to some trepidation about opting for early retirement, mainly because of his wife, Wilda, who is an elementary school teacher. ‘Teachers, libraries, police and fire are usually the first to be cut in times like these. But,’ he adds optimistically, ‘(this country’s) gone through worse and we’ve pulled through. I’m just angry at the politicians who allowed all this to happen.’”
*****
What bothers me is this idea that police, fire and teachers are the first laid off.
That is bullshit. What dream world has this guy been living in? Oh, that’s right, sucking on the government teat in Marin County.
Those persons could, perhaps, be the first of “public servants” laid off in any downturn… but they are far from the first in any overall look at the economy.
Because water should be free?
Or, maybe not. Yeah, you’ve got a water bill. You pay it, and you get water. The people who provide you that water get paid to do so.
You don’t like it?
Stand outside in the rain with your mouth open.
–Shannon
Its not that, its that they are overpaid causing the state to go into the dump. For instance I have a friend that brags about being paid 60 bucks per hour to sleep on the job. That sleep money is part of the soon to be 10% state income taxes californian’s pay.
My brother has an idiot mother in law, ex teacher, brags about making more working for the school now than when she was on the payroll. She’s too stupid to understand that she is part of the problem that makes it hard for her daughter, a teacher, to get a steady teaching job.
Why do they think there will be any significant buying?
Its is like God suing the Devil. “Where you gonna get a lawyer,” Satan fiendishly asked?
Even if someone is qualified, where they gonna get a mortgage? The banks are still short their own funding and are not obligated to lend.
The housing market has a long way to go down.
I can’t see any wisdom in it, but my impression is that there is still a will to have the FHA and the govt-owned-and-operated GSEs promote low income housing by getting loans into the hands of folks who cannot find a private lender willing to make them a loan. Is it hard to anticipate the future political quagmire that will result when lots of these folks become tomorrow’s foreclosure victims?
That is, I am afraid, exactly what is going to happen.
Financial institutions with an actual risk of loss will return to traditional lending standards, the government will act like Golden West……
I can attest that the FHA and the CHA are the only things supporting the non-jumbo California housing market right now. Currently they subsidize the 3% down and 4.7x income loans, with 3 months of mortgage payment reserves.
The jumbo market is pretty much dead, AFAIK.
“The jumbo market is pretty much dead, AFAIK.”
This will eventually pose a problem for the non-jumbo market, as jumbo-priced housing will always be more desirable, and thus sell for more, than non-jumbo-priced housing. Once the jumbo end of the market starts moving again (which it inevitably will), a new, lower ceiling will smother the value of non-jumbo-priced housing.
Once the jumbo end of the market starts moving again (which it inevitably will)
All roads lead to Rome. Are you saying Alt-A mortgages are going to end up the same way as subprime ones? In foreclosures?
Again, a very interesting thing to ponder - middle and upper-middle class getting foreclosed on. What is it going to look like?
OK, so they lend some more, and the taxpayer takes it on the chin, and you prolong the problem like Japan.
What’s your point? Where are the fundamentals?
Plus, if they do this, the derivatives will explode. So you have other problems.
C’mon!!!
My point is that the govt is (still) working hard behind the scenes to encourage low income families to financially hang themselves. Why this is a desirable policy is completely baffling to me. I concur with you that it will not do a thing to stop prices from falling to levels supported by fundamental factors, like principle loan balances that can be repaid out of buyers’ future earnings.
You are assuming that the “low income families” are totally clueless.
This may be partially true but Northern Rock tells me that nobody, just about nobody is totally clueless. When they get a clue, watch out below.
“When they get a clue, watch out below.”
What happens when they get a clue? (I am not familiar with the Northern Rock story at the household level…)
You didn’t see Northern Rock explode with egg all over the face of the BoE?!?
FPSS,
it’s not that they’re clueless, it’s just that the government essentially became _the_ subprime lender.
They are not clueless. They are victims. Jeesh, some people.
Quick OT from Atlantic City, in another “sand state,” New Jersey: I commute about 20 miles inland and take a route about ten minutes longer than the most direct. That way I manage to avoid teachers applying make-up behind the wheel, hung-over construction workers racing their pick-ups to convenience stores for coffee, and assorted sociopaths who live to tail gate. My route’s pretty rural; houses sprung up along it over the past 20 years, they’re pretty well spaced out along it. Anyway, I could not help but notice how recently the numbers of motor vehicles, jet skis, lawn mowers, furniture, cycles etc. out for sale at the end of the driveways has skyrocketed. This started last spring but has taken off remarkably since Labor Day. I think there’s some real desperation lurking behind those “white picket fences of suburbia.”
The “end of the driveway with a for sale sign” strategy never works- at least around here. I’ve watched the same old cars, motorcycles, trucks, boats, snowmobiles, trailers, etc. rotting away for years. Some of the signs have become so worn, they’re barely legible. These people need to get a clue in the form of a computer, craigslist, and a realistic LOW price. I’ve NEVER had a problem selling a used car, boat, etc. Price it right and it sells immediately.
Government’s Last Stand
by Michael S. Rozeff
“…There is no third way between liberty and private property and its opposite, which is government ownership and control of everyone and everything in the country.”
“…Finance is a final constraint upon a government. When it can no longer finance itself, it fails. When its tax collections fail, it fails. When its printing press no longer seizes enough real capital to sustain the government, it turns to brute force seizure. This brings its political power into the open. As greater awareness of the seizures spreads, capital flees. Capital flees taxes and seizures of all kinds. It goes into hiding domestically. It runs off to foreign havens.”
Just hang the would be capitalists who commit treason by fleeing their patriotic duty. Mass hangings should send a good message.