October 17, 2008

Where The Market Has Gone In Florida

The St Petersburg Times reports from Florida. “Nearly half of the people who bought homes in the Tampa Bay area in the last five years owe more than their home is worth. The story is even worse for those who bought at the market’s peak in 2006. More than 70 percent of those buyers in Tampa and St. Petersburg now have negative equity, according to Zillow. ‘We don’t have anything left,’ said Darryl Outlaw, who estimates that he and his wife owe at least $50,000 more than their Dover home is worth.”

“The couple have burned through their savings and a second mortgage they took out to pay bills. They figure it’s only a matter of time before they lose their home. ‘I never thought I’d be in this position. We’ve always made good financial decisions. My mortgage is at 5 percent, and we’ve never lived beyond our means. I just can’t find work. Our only options now are to sell or walk away,’ he said.’”

“Mike Kelly has a front-row seat to the crisis. As a mortgage broker, it’s his job to get people the money they need to buy houses. These days, Kelly spends most of his time trying to get people money so they can keep their houses. He understands their plight; he also owes more on his Seminole home than it’s worth. ‘We’re way upside down,’ said Kelly. ‘But not quite as bad as others.’”

“He blames his situation on greed. Kelly bought his home in 2002. Two years later, the 3-bedroom, 2-bath with a pool was appraised at $310,000, he said. Its current market value is $240,000, about $50,000 less than he owes. A few years ago, he and a partner decided to play the flipping game using his home equity. The pair did well with a couple of properties. But the last one —- a condo conversion at Lake Seminole — bombed. They got $105,000 less than they paid.”

“But Kelly said he’s not giving up yet. ‘I’m not walking away,’ he said. ‘I’m not going anywhere.’”

The Palm Beach Post. “Warrants have been issued for the arrest and detention of Merco Group executives Tony Castro and Homero Meruelo Jr. after the two men failed to appear at depositions linked to the failed Palladio Terrace condo project. The luxury condominium in West Palm Beach was never built.”

“For the past two years, though, Miami-based Merco Group has refused to return $10 million in buyer deposits. Earlier this year, Merco consented to a $1.9 million judgment in a case filed by several Palladio buyers. Despite the judgment, the would-be buyers have not been able to collect, said Greg Pill, a San Francisco man who says he’s owed $166,500 in deposits on two Palladio Terrace units.”

“But Palm City residents Leonard and Dianna Rosenblatt aren’t giving up on seeing their $400,000 again. They are among 26 Palladio buyers suing the Gunster Yoakley law firm for failing to protect deposit money it held in escrow for Merco.”

“Others say Gunster knew, or should have known, construction hadn’t really started, especially since the firm ‘has two offices within three miles of the property,’ Rosenblatt said. Tracy Sundlun of San Diego agrees. Sundlun, who says he still hasn’t received a refund on his $91,400 deposit, has joined the Palm Beach County Circuit Court lawsuit against Gunster Yoakley.”

“‘Somebody has to say, ‘I think we ought to check this out a bit. We’re about to release how many millions of dollars on an empty lot,’ he said.”

“How low can the price of downtown real estate go? Wood Partners is about to find out. The developer of The Edge condominium will hold a bargain-basement auction next month on 41 unsold units - with some listed at a 70 percent discount from their regular asking prices.”

“The Edge is a 15-story, 307-unit building. Despite the location and amenities, only half the units have sold, at prices ranging from $200,000 to $600,000-plus. A one-bedroom unit that was priced at $337,000 will have a minimum selling price of $95,000, or $142-per-square-foot, a 72 percent discount. A two-bedroom, two-bath unit that was going for $560,000 will be offered for $160,000, or $163 a square foot, a 71 percent discount. Other units are being offered at discounts ranging from 42 percent to 70 percent.”

“‘It’s impossible to believe prices could go lower,’ said Gollinger, of Accelerated Marketing Partners, which is conducting the auction. ‘How can anyone go wrong?’”

“After a five-year building boom, downtown West Palm Beach is dotted with empty condo towers from Flagler Drive to Australian - with more than 1,000 units still in the pipeline. Most buyers who purchased units in the past few years have seen their values plummet as sales have all but stalled.”

“For the 151 buyers who have units at The Edge, the auction is terrible news. ‘For most of them, this is going to wipe out their down payments and make the value of their units considerably lower than their mortgage amounts,’ said Jack McCabe, of McCabe Research and Consulting in Deerfield Beach. ‘Existing owners are going to be very upset. And if they’re trying to resell now, the builder just killed that possibility.’”

“‘They are marking down to where the bottom is and to where these units are now affordable for the majority of Palm Beach County’s workforce,’ McCabe said. Still, he said, ‘People are going to take a look at it and say, ‘My God. Is that really where the market has gone?’”

“Jay Jacobson, South Florida director of Wood Partners, admits Wood Partners considered postponing the event because of the ongoing credit crunch. With three new West Palm Beach condos dumping another 1,200 units on the market during the next 60 days, however, Wood Partners thought it best to try to beat the competition.”

“More than anything else, Jacobson and Gollinger said the auction’s outcome could be a crucial economic indicator. ‘We think the auction will be great gauge to see if consumer confidence is still out there, at any level,’ Jacobson said.”

The Tampa Tribune. “Luxury condos for about $128,000? Believe it. An unidentified company paid $21.9 million for 171 condos and 12,900 square feet of retail space at The Place at Channelside, said Lamar Fisher of Fisher Auction Co.”

“The units were originally marketed for about $200,000 to $1 million. The developer of the project, which filed for bankruptcy protection, owes the bank more than $47 million. ‘I think everyone involved is really happy with the result,’ Fisher said.”

The Miami Herald. “He frequents the pool at The Venetia condo building. He leaves his Jaguar with the valet. He uses the gym. He’s also behind on his mortgage and isn’t paying his condo association fees. Neither is his lender, and the association’s board worries the bank is delaying foreclosure to avoid paying dues as well.”

“Sharon Dodge, president of The Venetia’s association, angrily told a crowd of South Florida condo dwellers at a meeting this week that 134 units were not paying maintenance fees in the 382-unit building. Of those, at least 35 are in the hands of lenders who aren’t playing fair. ‘Something needs to change!’ Dodge said, drawing rowdy applause from the crowd in Miami Beach.”

“The unpaid accounts have resulted in higher association fees for everyone and crippling special assessments to cover large one-time expenses like roof repairs. Less than a year ago, The Venetia had to slap an $8,000 special assessment on homeowners because, at the time, roughly a quarter of them were delinquent.”

“‘We are in a death spiral,’ said Miami Beach Commissioner Jerry Libbin. ‘It’s the foreclosures that are not happening, the banks that are not taking the actions that they should be taking that are causing additional assessments to be foisted on good condo unit owners.’”

“At the root of the problem, Libbin and the condo boards say, is a state law that seems to give banks incentives not to foreclose on delinquent borrowers in their buildings. Upon taking title to a unit through foreclosure, a lender must pay condo associations 1 percent of the original mortgage amount or six months of unpaid maintenance fees, whichever is less. After the initial sum, the lender then starts making full monthly payments like other unit owners.”

“‘The association pays to preserve and protect the bank’s collateral while they sit on their hands for months or years without taking steps to foreclose,’ said Ken Direktor, an attorney with a firm representing condo associations. ‘We are providing services for the benefit of the bank. Why shouldn’t they pay for it? They are getting a free ride.’”

“In an interview, Marc Ben-Ezra, an attorney who files foreclosures statewide for lenders, said he was not aware of lenders deliberately stalling foreclosures to avoid condo fees and warned against enacting laws that could make lenders more averse to financing units to new buyers. ‘If the mortgage holder knows they could be wiped out due to a much smaller association lien, the lender wouldn’t lend in those buildings. If they make it too risky for lenders to lend, their property values are only going to go down further,’ Ben-Ezra said.”

“Anthony DiMarco, a lobbyist for the Florida Bankers Association, said banks have been put in almost a no-win situation when it comes to condos. ‘On the one hand, we are working with homeowners and also being encouraged by the government to keep them in their homes, and, on the other hand, we’re being told we’re not foreclosing fast enough. So what are we supposed to do?”’

“”I don’t understand, personally, why the bank who lent somebody money is responsible for someone who didn’t uphold their end of the bargain,’ DiMarco said. ‘Once we take it over, that’s fine. We should pay going forward. I don’t know why if you lend money, you’re somehow responsible for something somebody else didn’t do.’”

“The state’s economy already was in trouble from the housing market bust when the national financial system meltdown added to our woes, University of Florida economist Dave Denslow told a statewide economic development agency, at its quarterly meeting. ‘Florida has been in a recession for about a year now,’ Denslow said. ‘It hasn’t been that severe a recession. Now we get the national recession on top of it.”’

“Population growth, which helped pull Florida out of past downturns, has slowed drastically. In fact, for the first time since UF researchers began keeping track 40 years ago, the number of electric hookups in the state actually fell slightly in September, Denslow said. ‘Population growth has slowed very dramatically in this state,’ Denslow said.”

“He predicted that the state will remain in recession through the 3rd quarter of next year. Tom Cunningham, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, gave a similar assessment. ‘Consumption, which accounts for two-thirds of the economy, is falling,’ he said.”

“Board member Tony Villamil, an economist and dean of the St. Thomas University business school, agreed with his colleagues’ prognosis, adding that Florida’s business connections with foreign countries — another major shield against past downturns — is weakening. ‘The international sector has been a key driver,’ he said. ‘That is starting to slow.’”

“Earlier in the meeting, Enterprise Florida president John A. Adams Jr. tried to reassure his board that things aren’t so bad. ‘The underpinning of our economy is basically good,’ he said. ‘We are still a growth state. It’s not as fast as it has been, but remember, we’re still a growth state.”’

“That prompted ridicule from economist Cunningham, who spoke next. ‘Evidently, from our last report, everything in Florida is hunky-dory,’ he said.”

The Pensacola News Journal. “With two teenagers soon headed to college, Shelley and Steve Black are ready to downsize, sell their Cottage Hill home north of Cantonment and move to Pensacola. But the Blacks, who put their rural 11-acre property on the market in July, have seen their plans stymied by a market flooded with thousands of homes and too few buyers.”

“Sandra and Bo Davis, both University of West Florida professors, are in the same boat. Davis said her husband is nearing retirement, and they want their Copper Ridge home to sell as soon as possible. Both couples are taking part in Coldwell Banker United’s 10-day, 10-percent off sale, which runs through Oct. 19.”

“The Blacks have lowered their asking price from $475,000 to $427,500, and the Davises lowered theirs from $210,000 to $189,000. Despite area homes languishing on the market an average of 136 days, the Davises are optimistic dropping their asking price by $20,000 will find them a buyer. ‘We believe our home will sell in a very short period of time at the highest price obtainable,’ said Sandra Davis.”

“Let’s distill the housing crisis down to its barest essence: The United States built millions more homes than there were families to fill them. Economists have dubbed this surplus the housing ‘overhang.’ And we in Florida — forgive the pun — have one of the nation’s worst hangovers.”

“Among major metros, the Tampa Bay area ranked second in home vacancies in 2007 at 5.1 percent, almost triple the empty homes just two years earlier. Orlando was tops at 7.4 percent. Two years after Tampa builders started applying the brakes, we’ve still got about 35,000 homes, new and used, jamming the ‘For Sale’ listings. That number has been almost impervious to improvement, thanks in part to all the foreclosures feeding the glut.”

“This is the year the first big wave of baby boomers are retiring. Unfortunately, these boomers’ departure from the work world coincided with a recession, credit crunch and stock market meltdown. Not exactly prime time to up and relocate to the sunny strands of St. Petersburg.”

“Home prices probably won’t rise substantially for another two or three years. It’s part of our continuing penance for overindulging in 2005. The real estate market will be ready to catch the next wave of boomer retirees in 2011, when they start turning 65. Maybe this time around we’ll build houses people actually need.”




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92 Comments »

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 07:31:00

‘We don’t have anything left,’ said Darryl Outlaw, who estimates that he and his wife owe at least $50,000 more than their Dover home is worth.”

One toke over the line, sweet jesus…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqJ_V7ay3E8&feature=related

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-17 14:44:07

One more toke, Sweet Baby Jeebus, and I’ll swear I’ll never touch the stuff again.

 
 
Comment by beachgirl
2008-10-17 07:36:57

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh….the Florida thread.
The days of wreakening are here.
10 % off sale from Coldwell Banker, what a joke,
how about 50% off.
We have along way to go here in Tampa Bay.

Comment by rusty
2008-10-17 09:50:40

I totally agree, watching some houses in our neighborhood that have been for sale 6 months or more.

1 finally rented it instead, the other just took the sign down to wait for the next selling season. The rest, they keep trying to get 50-100k more than even Zillow thinks they are worth.

I’ll know the housing bust is over when these houses have sold!

 
Comment by DigitalMegaMall
2008-10-17 13:27:51

I see more and more going up for sale every day here in Brevard County. Nice houses that are reasonalby priced are moving quickly, but everything else is sitting and rotting.

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-17 07:37:45


“Home prices probably won’t rise substantially for another two or three years. It’s part of our continuing penance for overindulging in 2005. The real estate market will be ready to catch the next wave of boomer retirees in 2011, when they start turning 65. Maybe this time around we’ll build houses people actually need.”

No, sire, there will be more Vacant Units in AZ, CA, FL, NV,…, US, in 2011 than at the end of 2008. This housing cycle would be UNLIKE ANY in US history

Jas

Comment by exeter
2008-10-17 09:37:03

Yeah. That line of sh1t stood out when I read. This is the same flawed logic everyone was using when prices were spiraling out of control. I can only speak for the northeast states that many of those first to the retirement trough, ages 50-55 have already retired and are long gone. The retirement peak from this area already took place. Those who follow the first herd will have less and less money and options.

What these a$$wipes always fail to mention is that retirees are ready for the funeral parlor within 15 years of retirement and will leave huge numbers of empty houses.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-17 10:06:08

Gosh, I didn’t realize the U.S. population was declining.

Comment by MacAttack
2008-10-17 10:24:00

It probably is, at the moment - since the generally illegal folks who do construction, janitorial, farm labor, etc. have returned to their home countries or otherwise moved on.

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Comment by SMF
2008-10-17 10:47:27

Most, if not all, developed countries have essentially ZERO population growth.

The only growth they get is from immigration, legal and illegal.

And how can you grow and economy with less people from year to year? You don’t. Hence the inaction with immigration.

And the better question:

How could have house prices shot thru the roof with a stagnant population?

Or even how could the excess supply be removed with a stagnant population?

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-17 11:30:11

US Census Bureau numbers

July 2000 282,194,328
July 2001 285,112,030
July 2002 287,888,021
July 2003 290,447,644
July 2004 293,191,511
July 2005 295,895,987
July 2006 298,754,819
July 2007 301,621,157

Current population clock number
305,434,696

 
Comment by SMF
2008-10-17 11:45:26

Internal population growth is stagnant.

Immigration is picking up the slack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpopulation

 
Comment by spacecoastFLrenter
2008-10-18 10:33:10

American population grown is primarily from immigrants and not from US birthrate. Know the details Carolina boy cuz stats lie. The first generation if immigrants usually remember the financial cesspool of the “old country”. They remind me of my grandparents and other who lived during the great depression. These immigrants are usually not big consumers of anything, in fact they live small…. Hence the demand for McMansions will not continue…. We should throw then out for being “un-American”…and another thing…they look different and talk funny too… and since you Carolina boy judge people by how they look l can hear the chants…………….BURN THEM!!! BURN THEM!!!!!!

 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-17 11:59:06

“Gosh, I didn’t realize the U.S. population was declining.”

You get taught something new. Everyday.

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Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-10-17 13:10:34

Yeah, with Zero Population Growth, the U.S. committed self-genocide. The intelligent countries stopped replacing themselves, and many 3rd world sewers are seeing population growth of their own kind. Why not export the poor, and import their $ back. Worked for Mexico, and So America until now.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-10-17 13:11:43

meant Central America.

 
 
 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-17 10:57:49

……within 15 years of retirement and will leave huge numbers of empty houses.

But wait! 15-20 MILLION illegal aliens suddenly become Legal Citizens by an Act of CONgress in just 2 years.
They become eligible for the “FIRST TIME HOMEBUYER PROGRAM” or refinancing of the houses they already bought.

In 15 years, there will be millions more, and their “new American” children will be entering the homebuying arena.

The POPULATION is not static, and though the highest growth is from Illegal entrants, the GOVERNMENT agents (NOT the PEOPLE) will make adjustments to the changing demographic situation.
PROBLEM SOLVED.

 
 
 
Comment by baabaabooie
2008-10-17 07:39:43

The only good thing is for us in the Midwest is that this flushes out all the equity locusts from the East coast who drove up the costs in FLA…….Can any one sing “The Vilages……”

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 07:39:51

“Let’s distill the housing crisis down to its barest essence: The United States built millions more homes than there were families to fill them. Economists have dubbed this surplus the housing ‘overhang.’ And we in Florida — forgive the pun — have one of the nation’s worst hangovers.”

Hold on!

A hangover is a self-debilitating session of fear and loathing, but let’s not confuse important drinking matters with real estate.

What they have going on is a:

Overhang-Over

on-on

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-17 08:58:47

aladinsane,

What bugged me about that statement was “The United States built millions”? Excuse me but “I” didn’t build sh!t. Nor did “I” or millions of Americans do ‘anything’ but stick to our own knitting.

More “We’re all in this together” REIC/Bail-out mentality.

Oh and congrats to BoSox fans the world over! I don’t ‘believe’ ChiSox fans are pulling for TB.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 12:04:52

One Day in the Life of Ivana Trumpovich…

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-17 12:28:01

What a nightmarish finish. I went to bed last night in the middle of the seventh inning with the score 7-0. As I fell asleep, I was debating whether to try and get tickets for my wife and me to go to a World Series game.

 
 
 
Comment by lep
2008-10-17 07:51:46

Can someone post that quote from a couple of years ago about the Florida RE market being in a new paradigm that will support price increases indefinitely?

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-17 08:49:26

Premonitions of a bubble on the verge of popping do not ruffle those who are bullish on real estate. In Miami, Ron Shuffield, president of Esslinger-Wooten-Maxwell Realtors, predicted that a limited supply of land coupled with demand from baby boomers and foreigners would prolong the boom indefinitely.

“South Florida,” he said, “is working off of a totally new economic model than any of us have ever experienced in the past.”

This is one of all time favs.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-17 09:06:57

The DEEE-lightful thing about this quote is that it is _more_ true today than when it was first uttered! :-) :-)

And it will likely be even more true one year from now…

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-17 12:05:00

Good thing thay aren’t in the aircraft business:

Our new airliner is based on a whole new airflight model!

Customer: Where are the wings?

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Comment by Gatorfan
2008-10-17 11:29:19

I love the website archive.org because you can always go back and bust on the idiots and what the were writing back in 2005.

Here’s an absolutely hysterical essay written by Ron Shuffield back in 2005 titled, “Bursting the “Bubble Talk:”

http://tinyurl.com/5b5j67

Shuffield’s conclusion in the essay is as follows:

“While all of these items listed above will continue to help propel our real estate market, at the end of the day… population growth is the #1 factor which influences demand for real estate. Just about everyone agrees that thousands of newcomers will continue to purchase homes in Florida, either as permanent or part-time residences. As the demand increases for homes and the supply of developable land decreases, South Florida values are going to rise. It’s that simple. ”

“It’s not a question of, ‘if we build it, will they come?’ They’re already here… hence the growing demand for first, second and even third homes. It’s a great time to be living and working in South Florida. Spread the word……..”

The value of most housing in South Florida has dropped 40% since he wrote his brilliant analysis.

 
 
 
Comment by beachgirl
2008-10-17 07:52:31

At what point do you walk from the house?
If you are underwater 10%? 30%? 50%?
Surely there is a formula.?????

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-17 11:06:13

At what point do you walk from the house?

When it’s advantageous to do so. Many folks are still paying BELOW MARKET rates for mortgages.
Remember all the resets coming our way??
If they got a 5 year interest only loan, or “pay option” loan in 2005, then it’s still probably cheaper than renting.
After the resets, then we are seeing MANY “homeowners” squatting on the property (some quite literally) for a year or two before they are forced out.
As you can see from the CONDO articles, you can live for free for quite a while, and still enjoy the pool and the gym, as long as your neighbors keep the place up.

I call this “sharing the Welfare system” or real EQUAL HOUSING OPPORTUNITY. Let everyone default and live off the goverment! Where’s my “bailout”??

 
 
Comment by Les Pendens
2008-10-17 07:53:33

..

Today’s 26′ Truck UHaul Rates for 10/24/2008 Pickup:
____________________

Tampa to Chattanooga, TN : $ 924.00

Chattanooga, TN to Tampa : $ 601.00

____________________

Tampa to Nashville, TN : $ 600.00

Nashville, TN to Tampa : $ 600.00

____________________

Tampa to Raleigh, NC : $ 1047.00

Raleigh, NC to Tampa : $ 436.00

____________________

Tampa to Charlotte : $ 934.00

Charlotte to Tampa : $ 378.00

____________________

Tampa to Columbia, SC : $ 781.00

Columbia, SC to Tampa : $ 391.00

____________________

Tampa to Charleston, SC : $ 699.00

Charleston, SC to Tampa : $ 334.00

____________________

Tampa to Atlanta, GA : $ 797.00

Atlanta, GA to Tampa : $ 556.00

____________________

..

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 08:01:43

Good job~

This is one of those indicators of what’s really happening vis a vis supply vs. demand.

I wonder why it’s the same price Nashville-Tampa, where everywhere else it’s gobs more to get out of Tampa, rather than into it?

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-17 10:08:50

Why would anyone move to Nashville? :-)

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-17 11:08:52

Why would anyone move to Tampa?
It’s run by crooks and smells bad.
If it wasn’t for the “housing bubble” and my property being destroyed by Tampa City Council, I would be GONE.
When I leave, I will stop by the Mayor’s Office and piss on her desk.

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Comment by beachgirl
2008-10-17 12:21:19

Hey, I live in Tampa, it really isn’t that bad.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-17 12:32:42

Beachgirl, you must be a relatively recent transplant. The fact that someone bitterly complains is a dead giveaway that he or she secretly likes it here. :-)

 
Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-10-17 16:25:40

>>”"”Hey, I live in Tampa, it really isn’t that bad”"<<<

Well!!! It isn’t all that good either….Given my druthers, I rather live in “”NEITHER”"”

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by SFC
2008-10-17 07:54:59

“A two-bedroom, two-bath unit that was going for $560,000 will be offered for $160,000, or $163 a square foot, a 71 percent discount.”

This is why I cringe whenever I hear a politician or TV talking head say the government should reduce mortgages to current values. I don’t think they have any idea how upside-down many mortgages are. In the above example, are the taxpayers supposed to give the early buyers $400,000 each? Just this ONE building would cost $10’s of millions.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-17 12:24:58

SFC,

Right, if they only look at national figures ( including a great many non-bubble markets ) hey, it doesn’t look so bad? But when they begin to drill deeper, as we do here, and look street by street and house by house… it’s beyond the imagination.

We’re looking at fire sale prices here and if ETrade’s subprime portfolio selling off at 28 cents on the dollar is any indication..?

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-17 08:03:47

“‘It’s impossible to believe prices could go lower,’ said Gollinger, of Accelerated Marketing Partners, which is conducting the auction. ‘How can anyone go wrong?’”

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh…

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-17 09:09:29

Sigh indeed, Olygal…

We’ll know the end is in sight when the prevailing wisdom is more along the lines of “It’s impossible to believe prices could go higher”.

We have a long ways to go…

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-17 08:04:54

“Despite the location and amenities, only half the units have sold…”

But, but, but everyone wanted to buy into hip urban condos?! The emptynesters, the singles. What’s the matter here? They were sold as a sure thing nationwide.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 08:30:13

Effective immediately…

St. Petersburg has been renamed to:

St. Potemkinburg

“Yes, Czarina…
All of the peasant people live pleasant lives, and are never foreclosed on, and all those facades of rusting grass and decaying cars in front of empty homes, mean the villagers must be on vacation?”

 
Comment by malfunction_junction
2008-10-17 08:38:10

“Sharon Dodge, president of The Venetia’s association, angrily told a crowd of South Florida condo dwellers at a meeting this week that 134 units were not paying maintenance fees in the 382-unit building. Of those, at least 35 are in the hands of lenders who aren’t playing fair. ‘Something needs to change!’ Dodge said, drawing rowdy applause from the crowd in Miami Beach.”

AHAHAHAHA I lived in this building in 1989. It was a very interesting community during the mid 80s made up of Venetia, Plaza Venetia, the Marriot, and Omni Mall that were all interconnected by skywalks. The mall died due to crime and the construction of Bayside Mall two blocks away. The post office was closed after it was burgularized in the middle of the night by a skilled crew of theives. I lost track of the number of times the spa folded. Family members had to be escorted around town after hours. Bums roamed around outside of the complex in downtown at night like a zombie movie. My sister was once in the late night groceria in the complex when a south american refugee tried to rob the cashier with a hand grenade.

Venetia and Plaza Venetia had condos on some floors and hotel rooms that served the cruise ship port next door. Plaza Venetia defaulted in 1992 when they tried to raise the rents. I looked at buying the unit I had lived in before for around $70k in 1996. During the bubble they wanted 350k for the same unit that was now 20 years old.

I cant imagine living there now because there isnt any place to buy gas, shop, or eat nearby anymore. It might be an ok place to dock your boat if your a single guy back from Iraq.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-17 09:04:38

“The unpaid accounts have resulted in higher association fees for everyone and crippling special assessments to cover large one-time expenses like roof repairs. Less than a year ago, The Venetia had to slap an $8,000 special assessment on homeowners because, at the time, roughly a quarter of them were delinquent.”

An excellent reason to avoid a condo in Florida like the plague. I am sure this scenario is being repeated to a greater or lesser degree at many a condominium association around the state. It’s getting uglier all the time.

 
Comment by Blano
2008-10-17 09:08:47

‘Something needs to change!’ Dodge said, drawing rowdy applause from the crowd in Miami Beach.”

Sounds kinda like the movie “Network,” only in reverse……..

“We’re mad as hell…..

and there’s not a dang thing we can do about it!!”

 
 
Comment by Ann
2008-10-17 08:42:27

“This is the year the first big wave of baby boomers are retiring. Unfortunately, these boomers’ departure from the work world coincided with a recession, credit crunch and stock market meltdown. Not exactly prime time to up and relocate to the sunny strands of St. Petersburg.”

If any state is in denial it is Florida..still living through visions of their grandparents…

My parents have retired this year and NEVER considered Florida as a place to go to…1)Too expensive 2)Too congested 3)No real tax benefit for seniors 4)Concerns of hurricanes and more…

Most of their friends have the same viewpoints. Today’s baby boomers are smart. They are going to places where they know their 401K(especially now) and other funds will LAST THEM THROUGH THEIR LIFETIME…

They all said that based on the cost of living in Florida that they have seen go up in the last 5 years, the lack of goverment financial planning and industry growth, high cost of property taxes and insurance, hurricane risk and the volume of people leaving the state..they have decided that there are other states that offer more and even other countries outside of the USA…Good luck Florida..you are living in a dreamworld..time to wake up!

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-17 08:53:03

Guadalajara is looking better and better..

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-17 12:08:59

Lots of expats live around Lake Chapala

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-17 09:14:14

One of the not-so-nice realities of retirement to Florida is that more than a few of those retirees move back north. Happened in my own family. And, trust me, Mom was not thrilled to have her mother moving back up to Pennsylvania.

 
Comment by Jon
2008-10-17 09:54:32

Most folks outside of Florida politics don’t understand just how completely controlled the state is by the home-building/real estate lobby. Both political parties.

Florida cannot have a robust, diverse economy. Why? Because you can’t build large factories. Why? Because that is less land that can be used for housing construction.

The whole state is built on the concept of putting up housing for out of state retirees. Then small businessmen suck every penny they can out of the them until they go to a nursing home where the medical industry vacuums out any last pennies that could be handed down to the next generation.

The rest of us just suck at the teats of the aforementioned. But the beaches are nice and the rum is good.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-17 12:43:51

Excellent analysis; I agree completely. I would not advise anyone thinking of retirement to come to Florida unless they had family already living here. And I strongly doubt that any of the mainstream presumptions made about Boomer retirees are going to hold true, starting with how affluent they allegedly are going to be.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-10-17 08:50:45

“The couple have burned through their savings and a second mortgage they took out to pay bills.”

“we’ve never lived beyond our means.”

Unless they had some kind of emergency, both statements cannot be correct.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 08:57:49

“Cut ‘em off at the past”

Nick Danger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5XfXECpU6w

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-17 09:03:22

Blano,

Can you imagine how our parents/grand parents would view that? You had a freaking 5% mortgage and STILL managed to screw it up? They wouldn’t care that you grossly overpaid for the home ( that’s YOUR dumb@ss fault ) but you had a 5% mortgage..!?

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-10-17 08:51:56

After an excellent dinner at a local Greek restaurant with a buddy, we took a drive down Apollo Beach Blvd (eastern shore of Tampa Bay) to check out the “night lights” at two of the last, rather large “luxury waterfront” condo projects to be built. These places still have the raw look of new construction, with unlandscaped dirt and supplies and rebar still sitting on site. At one place, spotted two occupied units. Out of 150. At another, only one, plus the mercury vapor lights on every landing made it look more like a prison with one inmate. And the faux waterfront and Key Westie “mansions” with For Sale signs are a site to behold. One of them had a massive picture window through which we could see an equally massive plasma screen TV. Just for sh*ts and giggles, we parked the car at the driveway (without pulling in) and watched the Rays game for a little while without sound. I’d hate to be that guy’s next door neighbor, you’d have to have blackout curtains to avoid the flashing of his TV screen.

Comment by Blano
2008-10-17 09:02:22

“Just for sh*ts and giggles, we parked the car at the driveway (without pulling in) and watched the Rays game for a little while without sound.”

Lol Palmy, that’s funny.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-10-17 10:14:40

Next time, turn on your car radio. You can run it for hours without worrying about a discharged battery.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-17 11:16:41

We has some R&B tunes going, we were just messing around, hoping the guy would notice us watching.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-17 11:26:15

Oh, boy, this takes me back to my University of Michigan days. We’d watch Michigan football on TV with the sound turned off. The radio would be tuned to Bob Ufer’s broadcasts. Ufer was absolutely manic for Michigan football, excuse me, “Mee-chigan football,” and listening to him was a gas.

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-17 12:49:05

Great story. Were you at “MiraBay”?

As for the condo building looking like a prison, more than a few of the newer towers around here have a certain penal quality to their architecture. And I do mean that as a double entendre — look at SkyPoint and Element.

Comment by palmetto
2008-10-17 14:55:11

Hi, snake, no, we cruised past Bella Sol and the other one just at the very end of ABB. There were some faux Key Westie McMansions between the two complexes and that’s where we stopped for a peek at the plasma. We were just messin’ around. Crazy what a coupla beers will do.

 
 
 
Comment by Lisa
2008-10-17 09:00:51

“The couple have burned through their savings and a second mortgage they took out to pay bills. They figure it’s only a matter of time before they lose their home. ‘I never thought I’d be in this position. We’ve always made good financial decisions. My mortgage is at 5 percent, and we’ve never lived beyond our means.”

Excuse me?? I think most on this board would argue that burning through savings AND taking out a second mortgage to pay bills is living beyond your means. What is it about victim stories that the MSM just laps it up without any questions?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 09:06:02

Which reporter could ever resist yet another sob story about see’d money and it’s ex-owners?

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-17 11:15:21

They skimmed $100,000 out of the house that they don’t intend to pay back. IT’s the same story over and over and over again.
They CONSUMED all their money and the money of others without saving a dime.
Cry me a river.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-10-17 11:16:51

Oh, excuse me, that was the other sob story.
It seems they only skimmed $50,000? is that right?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-10-17 12:17:31

“What is it about victim stories that the MSM just laps it up without any questions”?

One huge reason is the MSM is nearly all made up of bleeding hearts and they love human interest sob stories.
Listen to them sometime and you may think you are listening to a beauty pageant contestant… ‘I want to end world hunger’ and stop all smoking, because smoking can kill you and it’s not good for your health to die. That’s the way they are trained in journalism school.

 
Comment by beachgirl
2008-10-17 12:27:15

We’ve always made good financial decisions.

Then why are you in this mess.

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-10-19 05:18:04

Excellent point beachgirl!

Based on what was mentioned, it looks like they had little cash savings and relied upon their home as their piggybank to bail them out. It also looks like they did not plan very well for that rainy day and probally thought it would never happen to them.

Anyway, it is time for me to go to Clearwater beach for the day! Awesome weather today!

 
 
 
Comment by reuven
2008-10-17 09:59:12

The reporters keep missing the obvious:

‘We don’t have anything left,’ said Darryl Outlaw, who estimates that he and his wife owe at least $50,000 more than their Dover home is worth.”

“The couple have burned through their savings and a second mortgage they took out to pay bills. They figure it’s only a matter of time before they lose their home.

The fact that they “burned through their savings and a second mortgage” has NOTHING TO DO with the value of the property declining. It has EVERYTHING to do with them buying a house they couldn’t afford. Even if the value didn’t decline, they’d be in the same amount of trouble. Except they might not realize it because they can borrow even more and keep going for another couple of years, while digging a bigger hole.

Why can’t the reporters call them out on this?

Comment by JohnF
2008-10-17 10:47:58

Why can’t the reporters call them out on this?

…because they are lazy and uninformed…..

Comment by Kim
2008-10-17 12:00:01

“Why can’t the reporters call them out on this?”
“…because they are lazy and uninformed…..”

I think they aren’t adding the numbers because they’re HELOCed to the gills themselves and see it as “normal”.

 
Comment by fran chise
2008-10-17 14:34:48

And usually wrong. I’ve given a number of interviews on different things over the years. If they got 50% of the facts right, I considered that good.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-17 10:49:16

reuven,

One of the things I’ve noticed, in particular as we’re now looking at “post-peak data” is that just b/c various markets peaked, it didn’t have to put an end to the MEW/Re-fi/Fraud party.

Even though buyers may have exhausted their FICO’s and access to cheap money to make further acquisitions, didn’t mean homeowners weren’t getting all kinds of offers to re-fi and take their equity out.

I suspect a gooodly number of these folks knew the game was over but figured it was a nice bridge “until things got back to normal”.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-17 11:29:21

They also missed a chance to make fun of Outlaw’s name. But I’ll betcha that the name drew quite a few laughs in the newsroom.

Comment by tresho
2008-10-17 12:25:48

Maybe the newsmen sort through the stories & only print the ones with weird names.

 
 
Comment by EggMan
2008-10-17 11:56:59

Note the guy says “I can’t find work anywhere” - he’s out of a job. The rest is just BS.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-17 12:35:31

Right EggMan,

Then rent the freaking thing out and move to where there IS… work! As *reuven points out, just being under water has nothing to do with it.

This has GOT to be the biggest claim to Victimhood ever! People don’t see outrageous appreciation any more or are down ( and I hate to tell ya’ but a lot of people lost more in their 401k’s last week than 50k ) and all of a sudden they can’t tie their own shoes.

Based on this logic, after the Market Crash of 2000 we all should have turned our cars and house keys over to the bank before the dust from the 2nd WTC Tower settled? I don’t get it. Your stock portfolio takes a hit = your problem. Your house takes a hit = everybody’s problem. Man UP already!

 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-17 12:09:08

“The fact that they “burned through their savings and a second mortgage” has NOTHING TO DO with the value of the property declining. It has EVERYTHING to do with them buying a house they couldn’t afford. Even if the value didn’t decline, they’d be in the same amount of trouble. Except they might not realize it because they can borrow even more and keep going for another couple of years, while digging a bigger hole.”

—————————————————————-
There is a nationwide, media driven, house debtor denied disconnect on this very issue. Daily, the media releases data and articles that say “x% homeowners owe more than the asset is worth” blah blah blah. Now the none debtor house owner points to that and invariably will say, “those damn deadbeats”. Wall Street bemoans their MBS’s are worthless because of blah blah blah. What nearly everyone misses is the fact that ALL of this fallout is a result of the declining value of the underlying asset. PERIOD. Whether you have a mortgage or not, +++it is the asset price that is the core of this.+++++ Not FB’ers, not banks, not MBS’s, not bailout, etc. The sooner the media writes this, the quicker we get over it.

Comment by reuven
2008-10-17 13:06:28

“What nearly everyone misses is the fact that ALL of this fallout is a result of the declining value of the underlying asset.”

I would argue that the fallout is caused by

1. the INFLATED valuations given to the underlying asset
2. Deadbeats who don’t feel like paying the price they agreed to
3. A government that facilitates deadbeats by propping up lender and borrower at the expense of the minority of Americans that pay the most taxes and have savings accounts

 
 
 
Comment by The_Overdog
2008-10-17 11:35:09

‘Once we take it over, that’s fine. We should pay going forward. I don’t know why if you lend money, you’re somehow responsible for something somebody else didn’t do.’”
==========================================
This is an ironic comment, given that the guy is a banker (well a lobbist for a banker, same thing), considering everything in banking (and lobbying too come to think of it) is predicated on being responsible for others and punishing all when some are irresponsible. Sometimes is helps and sometimes it hurts.

Learn to deal pal.

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-10-17 11:51:54

“Nearly half of the people who bought homes in the Tampa Bay area in the last five years owe more than their home is worth. The story is even worse for those who bought at the market’s peak in 2006. More than 70 percent of those buyers in Tampa and St. Petersburg now have negative equity, according to Zillow.

Now factor in that unemployment in St. Pete and Tampa is nearly 7% and over 8% in Pasco County. However, those unemployment numbers only count those receiving unemployment checks. Therefore, the real unemployment numbers are probally double what is being reported by the state and local governments. People who ran out of benefits, self employed, part time workers do not get counted in the “official unemployment numbers”.

The good jobs if you have no degree, pay $10 an hour if you can find one. The college educated jobs are lacking in this area as there is not much industry in the area that requires these skills at this time.

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-10-17 12:25:28

One needs not to travel west to see a ghost town!

Simply travel to almost any city in Florida and you will see house after empty house!

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-17 15:03:20

One does not need to travel anywhere to see a ghost town.

There’s probably one in your town, or in one of the neighboring towns.

The level of overbuilding is staggering and beyond comprehension. Hence, the denial.

 
 
Comment by beachgirl
2008-10-17 12:35:42

the lights are off…
and no ones home……..

you got another…
subprime loan………..

your gonna have to face it……..
your a movin from home………

(Just could’t resist)

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-10-17 12:59:01

Board member Tony Villamil, an economist and dean of the St. Thomas University business school, agreed with his colleagues’ prognosis, adding that Florida’s business connections with foreign countries — another major shield against past downturns — is weakening. ‘The international sector has been a key driver,’ he said. ‘That is starting to slow.’
_________________________

Florida’s “business connections with foreign countries” largely are financial, meaning that Mr. Villamil, while perhaps not intending to, is referring to drug trafficking and money laundering.

Shifting gears, what about those two professors in the Panhandle? “We believe our home will sell in a very short period of time at the highest price obtainable.” Are they on the economics faculty?

 
Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-10-17 13:14:02

‘We believe our home will sell in a very short period of time at the highest price obtainable,’ said Sandra Davis.”

Doesn’t a house ALWAYS sell in a very short period of time at the highest price obtainable?

 
Comment by ChrisO
2008-10-17 13:35:02

The Florida threads alternately amuse me and really scare me. Is this what our nation has come to?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-17 13:40:50

Florida is like America, but only more so.

 
Comment by mdindestin
2008-10-18 07:38:22

<>

Translation: There is too much talk here of personal responsibility for the “victims” of the housing crisis.

 
 
Comment by megamike
2008-10-17 14:42:45

I have lived in Sarasota Fl and now live there part time (sold home made money bought in St. Louis will rent in Fl for the winter) any who…it really burned me up when they even suggested and than were bold enough to say that the real estate crisis was caused by minorities buying homes…Ya right in Sarasota…yes there have been mexicans buying a few homes here and there but the majority were of the following example..Nathaniel Place…I lived across a street from this Vision Home development scam http://www.visionhomesflorida.com/nathanielplace.htm (it is NOT sold out) They took a very large lot with a circa 1960’s ranch home on it (tore that down) and crammed 12 poorly built homes on it …I was there every scam of the way… when a few of the homes were built I played buyer and talked with the re agent… you want a pool extra..you want crown moulding ..extra..hell if I asked for another cable outlet it was probably extra…now here is the kicker check out what these saps paid for these homes… http://www.sarasotaproperty.net/scpa_parcel_detail.asp?year=&propid=0090-04-0048 I’m form Florida..and from Sarasota…I know what the land is really worth and the home value. Not long after people moved in I took a drive into the mess and saw a boy about 7 yo driving his little electric hummer around the street…sad very sad

 
Comment by JH
2008-10-20 13:37:44

“the Davises are optimistic dropping their asking price by $20,000 will find them a buyer.”

yeah right - that should really fix the problem.

 
Comment by JH
2008-10-20 13:48:31

don’t worry because I recall 20 to 30 years ago futurists claiming there would someday be many underwater houses. Also their predictions about increased leisure time for many americans - seem to be on the way too.

 
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