October 20, 2008

A Strategy That Isn’t Letting Up

The Korea Times reports on California. “Yoo Mi-rae says her three-bedroom condo in downtown Los Angeles looked better in June when it fared easily above $550,000. Her new second home an ocean away isn’t looking so great four months later, with its value down nearly 5 percent already. Yoo, who spoke to The Korea Times before the purchase this summer, indicated then that she was buying the condo as a five-year investment for her son starting college in California. ‘I didn’t want him to throw money away on rent,’ she says, ‘but now I’m thinking that maybe waiting it out would’ve been a smarter choice.”’

“Lim Chae-kwang, an agent at a Seoul-based brokerage specializing in overseas properties, says investors who made purchases without knowing the depth of the financial problem are being kept on their toes due the endless fall. ‘Long-term investors should be fine, but those looking to sell homes in the U.S. within five years might come home with a loss,’ said Lim, who said property values have dropped at least 20 percent over the past year there.”

“‘We used to get about 30 calls a day, but now we get 15 at most,’ he said, explaining that investor confidence will remain weak until popular states like California and Florida start to recover. The hard-hit Pacific region has seen the steepest drop in the country, with California home prices tumbling a record 41 percent in August from a year earlier.”

The Mercury News. “Lupe Parga and her family must find a house to rent, and soon. In late June, the fo ur-bedroom home she and her husband owned in San Jose’s Evergreen neighborhood was foreclosed upon. Parga, her husband, their four kids and Parga’s sister’s family are all still living there while seeking a rental that can hold both families. Meanwhile, they’re trying to stave off eviction from their former property.

“‘It’s really hard. Things are just getting rented right away,’ said Parga, an accountant who was recently laid off from her job.”

“Record numbers of Silicon Valley homeowners have been foreclosed upon this year, and most must seek rental housing once they leave their homes. But rent increases in the third quarter were not as steep as in the second quarter, a sign of the softening economy. And RealFacts said apartment complexes were 95.6 percent full in the July-to-September quarter, down from 96.7 percent a year earlier.”

“One reason apartment occupancy rates are slipping is that more single-family houses are coming onto the market as rentals, said Joshua Howard, executive director of the local division of the California Apartment Association. Some of those houses are previous foreclosures that were purchased by investors.”

“‘That’s providing competition to multi-unit buildings,’ Howard said. ‘The rental housing economy has more options available right now.’”

“Parga said she will keep searching for a rental house in the Evergreen area, so her children can stay at the schools they now attend. She said she’ll be sorry to leave her house, which she and her husband bought from her grandmother for nearly $800,000 in early 2006. Its value has fallen to about $600,000 this year. Even with family members’ help, they couldn’t afford the payments on their adjustable-rate mortgage, and they fell into foreclosure. They have stalled eviction by trying to find family members who would buy the house back from their lender. But eviction could occur anytime now.”

“Having foreclosure on her credit record has been ‘a huge setback’ when seeking to rent, she said. ‘Seeing the way things are, you’d think people would be a little more lenient… I’m sure there’s a lot of people in this situation.’”

The Press Democrat. “Lenders have been foreclosing on about 62 homes a week in Sonoma County. From real estate agents to police officers to neighbors, those reporting on the status of foreclosed homes say vandalism and vacant properties go hand in hand. ‘It’s getting toward winter, and people may be making fires to stay warm or using candles for light,’ said Santa Rosa Fire Division Chief Mike Jones.”

“Foreclosed homes sitting vacant are becoming heavy burdens for some neighborhoods as vandals break windows, dump trash, deal drugs, spray-paint graffiti and commit arson, said Georgia Pedgrift, graffiti-abatement officer with the Santa Rosa Police Department and one of the primary observer of vacant properties.”

“A little farther north, near Coffey Park, broken and boarded-up windows and the remnants of spray paint greet potential buyers at a home on Skyview Drive, listed at $248,900.”

“The few neighbors remaining on Shawnee Street said they cope by keeping to themselves. That means not confronting the people they see trespassing or squatting in the empty homes and not calling police about crime. ‘It has nothing to do with me,’ said a Shawnee Street resident who, with his own financial difficulties, is worried about losing his home.”

“With one house already gutted by fire — suspicious because gas and electricity to the vacant house had been turned off — neighbors anticipate more flames. ‘That one’s empty, that one’s empty, that one’s empty, but you can tell people are there,’ said one woman who feared retaliation if her name was used. ‘I’m just waiting for this one next door to catch on fire.’”

“Real estate agents said neighbors can help protect vacant properties by being observant and active before fire danger begins. First, said agent James Madison, appliances are typically taken from vacant houses. Next, trash is dumped in the yard. Then windows are broken and graffiti starts appearing, and squatters, from overnight partiers to longer-term occupants, move in. ‘It goes in stages,’ Madison said.”

The Manteca Bulletin. “Manteca’s median housing prices will hit $237,892 by Thanksgiving - what they sold for in 2002 - even if another deal doesn’t go pending and even if only half of the homes now in escrow actually close before the end of the year.”

“There were 836 closed deals of existing homes in Manteca as of last Tuesday with a median price of $243,783. There are another 240 deals pending with a median price of $219,378 with foreclosures - 160 of them - having a median of $192,097. Manteca housing prices have been dropping since the end of 2005 when they reached a historic peak of $429,000.”

“Three years ago not a single existing home that closed escrow in Manteca sold for under $320,000 in October. This October it is a drastically different story. Of the last 43 homes to close escrow through Tuesday in Manteca all but three ended up changing hands for less than $320,000.”

“The real tailspin didn’t start until mid-July. Since then home prices of closed deals have been dropping $3,315 a week reflecting the aggressive pricing that banks have taken. It is a strategy that isn’t letting up. ‘Banks are now looking at comparables when they get ready to list a foreclosure,’ Jim Muthart of Coldwell Crossroads Real Estate said. ‘They want to put their listing on new as the lowest.’”

The Sacramento Bee. “National banks, which handle most of the region’s consumer banking, also are the biggest business lenders. But local banks are important sources of funding, particularly to smaller firms. While some local banks are lending, the nation’s credit crisis remains severe. Fewer lenders are competing, and it’s getting tougher for borrowers to qualify.”

“‘I’m being told that the credit quality for loans now has to be pristine,’ said Clarence Williams, president of Sacramento-based California Capital Financial Development Corp.”

“Williams, whose company helps broker loans for small businesses around Northern California, usually averages two new loans a week. As of Thursday, he hadn’t closed a new deal in a month.”

The Salinas Californian. “Two California suicides in the past two weeks made national headlines - the first involved a family in financial distress and the second a woman about to lose her home to foreclosure. ‘Last month we had nine suicides in Monterey County,’ said Carly Galarneau, community outreach coordinator at Suicide Prevention Service of the Central Coast. ‘That’s the most we’ve seen in one month in a very long time.’”

“For Salinas marriage and family therapist Brenda Lang, more stress in the community has led to a spike in calls from new patients. ‘More than I can fit,’ said Lang, who specializes in financial crises. ‘The financial situation, the election, foreclosures - everything seems to be creating a lot more tension and anxiety, ‘ Lang said.”

“We felt we had made a good decision moving to Salinas. It wasn’t until a mortally violent crime occurred in our neighborhood that I took notice of the changes that were occurring…More and more undesirable activities were drawn to our neighborhood. Property values were dropping, homes were being foreclosed, and people were abandoning their homes, because they owed more on their houses than they could recover by selling.”

“On a recent neighborhood walk, I observed nearly 30 homes, abandoned, in our local, 300-home area. Most of these homes have had their utilities disconnected. This has resulted in a degraded appearance around these homes. Landscaping has become extremely dry, weeds are growing wild; and in some houses there is evidence of ’squatters.’”

“My next-door neighbor, Rodrigo…is a native of the Philippines. He immigrated to California and has worked for The Monterey Bay Aquarium for 14 years. Three years ago, with the help of his brothers and sister, he was able to buy a home. He brought his wife and children from the Philippines. Lorena, his young daughter, became involved in our neighborhood summer activities, eagerly appearing and participating at each event.”

“They lost their home in August. Rodrigo was devastated, returning to care for the landscaping, even though, as he said, ‘The bank owns my house.’”

The Modesto Bee. “Anna Cohen, 25, squinted and frowned at the 2001 Honda Civic before settling. ‘I wanted a Volvo, but I guess I can’t afford it,’ the Turlock woman said Sunday. ‘They told me it was ‘out of my budget.’ But somehow it was within my little brother’s budget last year.’”

“A year ago, Cohen’s brother drove off a lot in a 2002 Volvo S40. But a year ago, credit was much easier to obtain and the country wasn’t in a financial crisis. Everywhere Cohen looked, she was told she’d have to come up with 10 percent to 20 percent of the sale price to get the car she wanted. She did — after scaling back her expectations to a seven-year-old Civic.’

“She probably would have gotten a loan for it if she had shopped around a few months ago, said Abraham Tarverdi of Metric Motors Modesto. ‘It’s a lot harder to find financing now,’ he said. ‘The days of easy credit and people buying a car just because they want it are over.’”

“‘You basically have to be the perfect customer. You have to have long-term credit, no past-due payments and a 10 to 20 percent down payment,’ said George Ismail of Modesto Toyota. ‘It used to be a person with a pulse could get a lease. That’s not so anymore.’”

“The portion of disposable income that U.S. families devote to debt hit an all-time high in the second half of last year, topping 14 percent, figures from the Federal Reserve show. When other fixed obligations — car lease payments and homeowner’s insurance — are added in, about one in every five household dollars is claimed by bills.”

“The credit card industry lobbied heavily in 2005 to tighten bankruptcy laws to make it more difficult for consumers to seek court protection and shed responsibility for paying off debt. But in a sign of just how much households have become dependent on borrowing, the average amount of credit card debt discharged in Chapter 7 bankruptcy filings has tripled — to $61,000 per person — from what it was before the law was passed.”

“‘We are going to have to cut back,’ said Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, a Washington, D.C., think tank. ‘We’ve really been living beyond our means.’”

The North County Times. “North County’s population dropped last year —- a development that economists said last week was both a symptom of the region’s sluggish economy and a potential cause for severe regional recession. ‘The unemployment rate locally started surging in June 2007, so I think that was when the economy officially started weakening,’ said Alan Gin, an economics professor with the University of San Diego.”

“Economists said weak jobs reports mean the region’s population might have decreased even more this year. Further, another reason people leave cities —- foreclosure —- has doubled in North County during 2008 from a year ago, according to data from ForeclosureRadar.”

“Fewer people mean fewer house buyers, which could further depress real estate prices that have already declined by 30 percent from a 2005 peak, according to Standard & Poor’s Case-Shiller Home Price Index. Fewer consumers could further hurt retail sales, meaning less opportunity for businesses and more job losses, analysts said.”

“‘That’s definitely the worry right now —- that the weak economy is just going to reinforce itself through even lower economic activity,’ Gin said.”

“‘If you lose your job, it’s a heckuva lot more expensive to live here than elsewhere,’ said Marney Cox, economist for the San Diego Association of Governments. ‘Things like your unemployment benefits, your savings can take you a lot further elsewhere than it would in San Diego.’”

“Cost of living was a factor in Melanie Powell’s decision to move from Oceanside to Billings, Mont. She packed up her things Friday. Though she had a stable job as an accountant with no employment lined up in Montana, she was confident in finding work and wanted to relocate to be closer to her family and find a house she could afford.”

“‘I love it in San Diego,’ Powell said. ‘Just the thought of ever being able to afford a place by myself, it just doesn’t seem like that is going to be possible in the near future, if ever.’”

The County Sun. “Government and business leaders from San Bernardino and Riverside counties decided at a Wednesday meeting to keep pursuing a proposal that would open the door for Los Angeles-area investors and Inland Empire cities to buy up thousands of troubled mortgages behind the region’s economic problems.”

“The region’s hammered real-estate market could spiral downward even further if the concept doesn’t come together, which could slide the local economy into a deeper recession than expected, proponents say. ‘It could devastate our economy for the next decade,’ said Steve PonTell, president of Upland-based La Jolla Institute, a nonprofit economic research organization.”

“But the proposal’s advocates are also looking out for themselves. If their plan doesn’t work, and if home prices fall even more, they might see millions of dollars in losses.”

“They’re proposing a public- private partnership between cities and investors, which would buy distressed Inland Empire mortgages and shut out investors from outside the Los Angeles region. Real-estate developers, auto- dealership owners and some other entrepreneurs across the two-county region are tentatively on board with the concept. But envisioning the dream and realizing it are two different things.”

“Lance Larson, legislative director for San Bernardino County, said the Inland Empire has 100,000 homes in default or foreclosure - a $30 billion problem that doesn’t include thousands of previous and future foreclosures. ‘We’re also trying to increase demand,’ Larson said about drawing out buyers and propping up the region’s devastated real-estate values.”

“Montclair Councilman Bill Ruh, a strong advocate for affordable housing, questions whether a public-private partnership is a good thing for the region. He thinks it might usher in an artificial price floor on real-estate values, which would keep local blue-collar workers from finally being able to afford the American dream.”

“‘When homes were running up in price, we never said, ‘They can only go this high’ - so why stop prices from dropping?’ Ruh said. ‘What’s wrong if a home’s price drops low enough for a janitor to own one? There’s nothing wrong with that.’”

“‘If a janitor who makes $35,000 a year can finally afford a home at Sierra Lakes (in Fontana), so be it,’ Ruh added. ‘If a retail sales clerk who works at Banana Republic can finally afford a home, so be it. It seems that cities are more afraid of rentals than actually dealing with the problem.’”




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170 Comments »

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-20 10:39:33


Led By SF and SJ Prices in CA and the US Continue to Decline At, or Near, the Fastest Rate Ever

Decline In PPSF For Transaction That Originated in July-Aug and Closed Over the Past 2 months (Annual Rate):

San Fran, CA -47.5%
San Jose, CA -44.9%
San Diego, CA -35.5%
Sacramento, CA -33.5%
Denver, CO -33.0%
Las Vegas, NV -32.3%
Miami, FL -30.1%
Phoenix, AZ -28.2%
Los Angeles, CA -25.4%
Washington, DC -20.6%

25 MSA Composite -21.0%

Data Source: Radar Logic

All These Areas Have more than 20% drops in PPSF from the Peak Prices. Please note that the metro areas include rural counties nearby .The YoY decline in most of these areas is also at the fastest rate ever, so it is not just the seasonality. The above pace has been fairly consistent.

Yeah, yeah, the Bay Area is special!

Jas

Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 11:16:03

Thank you for the information. It is great to see Denver listed so highly. I follow many Denver neighborhoods, and am seeing no transactions in the 700k plus range taking place since the stock market started tanking drastically. Hopefully, price declines will continue to accelerate and we can finally put this all behind us.

Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 11:44:17

Just when I was getting excited I opened the attached article listing Denver as one of the top areas due for a rebound.

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/105982/Home-Prices:-Now-for-the-Good-News

I note that the Cherry Creek neighborhood they refer to is one dominated by synthetic stucco duplexes of little or no architectural detail within walking distance to an increasing number of chain stores (replacing more unique local shops). Just how I want to spend a million or more (and yes, that’s just for one half of the duplex). The comparison to one of the New York’s more interesting neighborhoods is shockingly misplaced.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 13:24:36

I have never understood the allure of Cherry Creek. Its no nicer than Fort Collins.

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Comment by Eudemon
2008-10-21 04:19:44

I don’t understand the allure of Ft. Collins. Sure, the mountains are right there, but the people there are immensely precious. As is the town itelf…Ft. Collins could be a great place if it didn’t try so d@mn hard to be hip. The pretentiously unpretentious bore the crap out of me. White boys with dreadlocks is a laughable state of affairs.

Ewww…

 
 
 
 
Comment by ValVerde
2008-10-20 15:23:36

Jas,

I love it when you dig these numbers up - thanks for posting them again.

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-10-20 16:37:19

“Yeah, yeah, the Bay Area is special!”

The Bay Area is special. So is Manhattan. So is Boston. So is Miami. So is Las Vegas. So is Denver. So is Minnesota. So is…… I believe this with all of my heart, after having spent a lot of time in of these areas. The problem is that these places think they are much more special than they are. They got ahead of themselves. This country is full of special places. I’m sure we all have a long list of special places. That doesn’t mean the ridiculous prices of real estate can be justified.

Comment by Happy Renter in Vancouver
2008-10-20 21:09:51

It’s not just that every place thinks they are more special than they really are… Every place seems to think “Rich ______ from ______” want to live here.

Florida - Rich retirees from the North-East want to live here…

Vancouver - Rich Investors from Asia want to live here…

Oregon - Rich Californians from the Bay Area want to live here…

California - Every rich person wants to live here…

Delusions know no geography…

 
 
Comment by beachhunter
2008-10-20 17:40:01

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20081020-1141-bn20housing.html
It seems like this sucker just keeps on rolling.. where will it stop? I’m taking median back December 2000 $255,000 before the end of 2011. As with most bubbles they over shoot to the downside. Where do you think it will stop? I took these numbers from data quick as the median single family home resale. Not condo’s or other properties. It is also county wide so realize it changes from area to area but still Local. Give me your guess. We will revisit this in a year. The thing to note is the rate of increase from 97 to the high point of 2005. Most people are driven by thoughts or feelings when it comes to real estate. I have stressed the numbers first when trying to determine a value of a property. The numbers below were a result of greed and easy money. Let us hope to never see either of them again.. to many good families hurt and lives changed.
Year median % to reach $$$ to reach
2005 $553,000 +58% +203,000
2004 $525,000 +50% +$175,000
2003 $430,000 +22% +80,000 (to reach this value again)
2002- $358,000 0% +$8000 Today’s median price is $8000 less then 2002
2001-$287,500 17.8 -$62,500
2000- $255,000 27% -$95000
1999- $218,000 37% -$132000
1998- $195,000 44% -$155,000
1997-$185,000 47% -$165,000

remember to measure twice and cut once.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 18:45:59

By my calculation, the annualized rate of SD home price decline from August 2008 through September 2008 was
((328,000/350,000)^12-1)*100 = -54.1 percent.

Jas — I thought you said the annual rate of decline for SD home prices was only -35.5 pct, but perhaps you meant the year-on-year decline?

More Business news
Sales up, prices down for county homes
By Roger Showley
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

11:41 a.m. October 20, 2008

San Diego County home prices slumped in September to levels last seen six years ago despite a rebound in sales volume, MDA DataQuick reported Monday.

The locally based firm said the overall median price dropped $22,000 from August to $328,000, the lowest since June 2002, largely as a result of the dominance of low-cost foreclosure sales. The figure represents a 34.6 percent drop from the peak of $517,500 set in November 2005.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 20:34:31

P.S. This is picking up steam. Accelerating price declines on rapidly increasing volume resemble the acceleration of a growing volume of snow as an avalanche approaches the base of the mountain.

 
 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-10-20 10:41:07

‘I didn’t want him to throw money away on rent,’ she says….

Really, Yoo? REALLY? Do these people ever run the numbers?

Joshua Tree, frozen salmon or tuna or whatever….throw the whole f@cking bus at this FB!!

Comment by Lisa
2008-10-20 10:57:27

‘I didn’t want him to throw money away on rent,’ she says….

I know, this attitude is just beyond beyond. I’ve heard it plenty in the Bay Area, as if paying 2x or 3x the equivalent rent to “own” a declining asset isn’t somehow throwing money away, with the added “bonus” of a 30-year payment plan.

Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 11:24:06

I ran the numbers on a few properties. I noticed that the numbers for just the taxes, insurance, utilities, maintenance, HOA dues, etc. on the homes I am looking at were greater than the $1k a month rent I pay for my apartment (with my utilities not covered in the rent running only about $25). Add onto that realtor fees and depreciation, and buying in most cases is a guarantee for financial disaster. Also, as many have pointed out, if I lose my job and want to move for another, I just pack up my car and drive. I dont sleep perfectly, but at least I can sleep.

I think I will keep my money and continue to rent.

Comment by octal77
2008-10-20 11:57:30


…numbers for just the taxes, insurance, utilities, maintenance, HOA dues, etc. on the homes I am looking at were greater than the $1k a month rent I pay for my apartment…

Yep.

In other words, even if J6P has a benevolent uncle who
gives him a home free and clear for $0, he still can’t
afford it.

Now wait until governments run out of cash because they
aren’t collecting enough in (readjusted) property and other taxes.

It’s still a long way down…

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Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-20 16:38:26

Or if Uncle Sam& Ben &Henry give everyone a Zero interest 30 year loan, they still could not afford 1/360 of the principle each month plus the taxes hoa utils insurances etc.

================================
In other words, even if J6P has a benevolent uncle who
gives him a home free and clear for $0, he still can’t
afford it.

 
 
Comment by The_Overdog
2008-10-20 12:15:56

Wow, you have some super cheap rent, unless it is an efficiency.

My apartment thousands of miles from either coast was more than a grand per month when the utilites were considered.

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Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 12:30:04

It’s a 700 sq foot one bedroom in a great neighborhood within walking distance to work, which I realize is not suitable for everyone but the story was talking about a single guy I believe. My rent is about $250 below market because I pay on time and have lived there over 3 years. Thus, exempt from the bulk of rate increases.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 12:50:00

“Thousands of miles from either coast”

I thought there were only 3,000 miles between the two coasts. How can you be 2 or more k away from each coast?

 
Comment by Suzy K
2008-10-20 14:04:49

Gee our rent for our 1bd/1ba 700sq ft updated cottage (on a large lot w/another home) w/single car garage & including utilities/cable/internet (except phone) w/big yard is $1165.00 and we’re three blocks from the ocean. FB’er down the street paid over 800K for a ramshackle, thrashed cottage 2bd/1ba @ 800sq ft. in 2005. Guess we’re getting a “deal”……

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-20 14:36:28

I always found that the longer I lived in an apartment, the larger the rent increases were.

I never understood getting rid of someone that paid on time and giving a discount to an unknown entity.

 
 
Comment by AZtoORtoCOtoOR
2008-10-20 14:46:33

“I dont sleep perfectly, but at least I can sleep.”

I have never slept better - I use the same bed that I slept on in my 5400 sq. ft McMansion in chandler in my current 2500 sq ft. rental. The same bed was taken from the 5400 sq ft. home, to a 1600 sq ft. rental, to a 2800 sq ft rental, to my current 2500 sq ft rental.

They all look the same to me when I close my eyes at night. The big difference is the peaceful demeanor that increases each night I rent.

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Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 15:58:13

Hey Tim, 2 days ago PB thought I was criticizing your spelling etc, I had hoped for a clarification on your post. My apologies again if it seemed I was criticizing..not. I just wanted to figure out what you were saying. I learn so much from everyone, that I sometimes reread a post to make sure I got it right. And seeing as how you are a attny with serious insight…I just wanted to ‘Get it!’
;)

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Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 16:15:33

No worries. I dont take anything too personal, although I sometimes respond bluntly to those that attack nonexistent motives or bias, or that tell me what I believe or how I would react and do so inaccurately - traits which I have not seen you exhibit.

 
 
 
Comment by phxis2hot
2008-10-20 12:10:49

And…becoming a serf on a manor that precludes any sort of mobility or flexibility. Job move? Forget it, you’re bound to the manor. Divorce? Forget it, you’re bound to what is now the anti-christ because of your manor. Job loss? Then plan on mailing the keys in about 8 months. For us, we’re going to be giving SoCal another few months to see what pans out, otherwise we pack up the UHaul and head back to cheaper areas. Even after the bottom is reached in SoCal housing, I’m wondering what this place will look like economically. It’s built on virtually nothing of substance. Plus, the population density is such that government services will be crushed in the years ahead. Tax revenues will continue to implode, and I can’t help but think that the entire area will be an uninhabitable war zone. For those that stay, can you imagine the stress and tension among those who are drowning in their “assets?” Heck, you’re liable to be stoned to death merely out of jealous rage from those who are totally trapped and have a very bleak future. Road rage? Just wait and see what it’ll be like in a few years around here.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-20 14:50:59

Where would you go?

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Comment by phxis2hot
2008-10-20 15:38:46

Probably Iowa. Cold winters but I’m not so sure metropolitan areas are going to be fun places while this massive recession gets worked out. Already I’ve noticed a general tension in OC. When we got here, there was a sort of smugness. The conversations in the bleachers at little league games drifted between the latest gadgets purchased to the imminent return of real estate appreciation. Now, there’s no talk of any of that stuff, just an eerie “how’s the weather” type talk punctuated by periods of silence. Then, there’s the sudden reminder that they’re supposed to be cheering, so these half-baked cheers just sort of pop out from different parts of the bleacher, and then the sunken silence returns. Maybe it’s just the microcosm in which we live. In any case, my wife’s sister’s ex-husband just lost his house in Hawthorne. Bought in ‘03 for 300k, rode it up to 600k, and it went for 206 at the auction. Not sure if the buyer did the right thing. It’s in the bad side of Hawthorne (next to the airport), is basically a tear down, and the relative gentrification which occured when times were good are certain to reverse. I suspect the social environment of that area will experience a deep receding as the deep recession removes the one spigot of economic injections from the blighted area - no more 100%, no doc loans to paint lip stick on what’s really a pig of an area.

 
Comment by phxis2hot
2008-10-20 16:04:53

Hmmm….don’t know where the last post went, but to answer your question bear, Iowa. With the coming onslaught of economic recenetering, the change is going to be quite dramatic for those who lived largest of the credit/debt empire. For those particular areas, I suspect people will be less than pleasant whereas those who have lived more or less as the previous generations did will be much more enjoyable to be around.

 
Comment by peter m
2008-10-20 18:31:33

“In any case, my wife’s sister’s ex-husband just lost his house in Hawthorne. Bought in ‘03 for 300k, rode it up to 600k, and it went for 206 at the auction. Not sure if the buyer did the right thing. It’s in the bad side of Hawthorne (next to the airport), ”

Hawthorne is 95% ‘bad’. It is a city with large expanses of apartments filled with section 8ers. The population is mostly lower income/marginal working class. Even at the peak of the bubble 2004-2007 hawthorne was always a crummy burg. There was some building of upscale townhomes/condos west of the 405 fwy which is the tiny ‘good’ part of hawthorne. They were being advertised for over $600.000 at peak but the location along busy LaCienega Blvd is simply crappy.
Auction for $206,000 for an REO is about right for hawthorne, which is only slightly better than Compton and as bad as Inglewood.

Apologies to all the long time faithful posters on bens blogsite for not posting more. Am the LA locational expert as some of you longtime posters such as Alad, Prof bear,Jas, bill in Carolina should know. One reason i don’t post so often is because i do not drive for a living anymore and am not quite up to date on ongoing LA/Scal housing &urban trends.

One thing i can tell you -October is shaping up to be a crushing month and things have gone dead all over especially retail. Expect CA UE rate to rachet up to over 10% by end of 2008. This would be the ‘official’ CA EDD rate. The real CA UE rate at end of 2008 will be over 15% if you include discouraged workers, part- time, temps, illegals, idle contractors, ect.

LA will trend slightly above the CA ‘official’ UE rate .

 
Comment by phxis2hot
2008-10-20 23:37:09

Hawthorne got a little better in the bubble era and relatively speaking it’s better than Compton, Watts, and Crenshaw. But then again, Afghanistan is probably better than Iraq, so being a little bit better than the neighboring ghetto doesn’t say much. I don’t even want to think about how bad those areas are going to be when the welfare payments are either reduced or when the rabid inflation basically reduces the welfare checks to nothing. Those areas are replete with experts in lawlessness and they can draw from several generations of institutional knowledge to make up for the lost difference. Couple that with reduced city services because of budget crisis, and Hawthorne is one area I would not want to be in day or night in a couple of years from now.

What are your thoughts about PV? The problem with that area is its proximity to the aforementioned areas. Criminals will merely commute the short distance up the hill to fetch what they want.

 
 
Comment by Suzy K
2008-10-20 14:54:41

Well at least you missed out on the hot summer in Phoenix. My son moved from Oceanside to Phoenix four years ago. The wages/”benefits” are just so crappy in So Cal. He does miss the cooler weather but he has job that pays 25% more than what he had so there he stays. Plus his wife can stay home with their daughter. They did buy a little mobile home back then and paid about 15K cash for it. It’s cheaper than an apt. and they can have their two cats, have nice sized yard and community center w/pool. I wish you luck but we never found “it” there. We’re just glad we sold the house we bought back in 98 in Nov 2004, made a little money and got the hell out of Dodge back to No Cal.

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Comment by phxis2hot
2008-10-20 15:44:33

Suzy, good for your son and daughter in law. Living in a mobile home is a heck of deal and I’m glad they have the self-assurance to do what is economically sound versus chasing the Joneses as most FBs do.

For us, I don’t think SoCal is going to work as I have already outlined above. The weather is amazing, but the people around here have no idea how far below the bottom lies. This is not financial armagheddon we’re about to go through and there will be a backside to this, but in the meantime there is going to be a giant recentering for all Americans, especially those in the burbs who couldn’t distinguish between debt and true wealth. That recentering is going to feel worse than it really is, but that’s because of our pain threshold as Americans is rather low after many years of opulence. It will take a few years for us to relearn what our Depression era grandparents knew and understood.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:02:19

“Cost of living was a factor in Melanie Powell’s decision to move from Oceanside to Billings, Mont. She packed up her things Friday. Though she had a stable job as an accountant with no employment lined up in Montana, she was confident in finding work and wanted to relocate to be closer to her family and find a house she could afford.”

Per Phxishot and Suz..this person has no clue that her skills aren’t going to make her that much more money in Montana. A for sure job here and good wages, but she wants to buy a house. I have friends who make nada up there.
It is always a struggle. One just bought snow/winter tires on credit from a friend.

Gorgeous but good luck.

Caveat emptor.

 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 12:47:09

Good news for the BA. If I were to buy the house I live in, then my mortgage payment would only be 1.5x my rent. Contrast that to 2 years ago, when it would have been 2x. Of course, part of that lower monthly payment today reflects a return to the down payment, but I think today’s interest rates make up for that anyway.

 
 
Comment by Houstonstan
2008-10-20 11:28:06

Nope. She just wanted to throw away more money on a mortgage on a deflating assett.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-10-20 10:41:39

‘Lance Larson, legislative director for San Bernardino County, said the Inland Empire has 100,000 homes in default or foreclosure - a $30 billion problem that doesn’t include thousands of previous and future foreclosures. ‘We’re also trying to increase demand,’ Larson said about drawing out buyers and propping up the region’s devastated real-estate values’

Note to these knuckleheads in the media, government and elsewhere; lower housing prices are a good thing. Foreclosures are a good thing. Want proof? Look at the tax benefits passed not long ago that encourage it. It’s a benefit to all that people aren’t saddled with a loan they can’t afford to pay.

Drastically lower housing prices are not the problem, they are the solution! People can afford to buy them. (Hint: that’s when foreclosures will go back to ordinary levels as well.)

The economy benefits as more income is available for other needs. Mobility improves. Overbuilding ceases. And these RE jobs disappearing is OK too. We need to allow the economy to retool toward something that’s actually productive. These jobs are going away no matter what, so the sooner we get on with our future, the better.

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-20 10:55:55


“Note to these knuckleheads in the media, government and elsewhere; lower housing prices are a good thing.”

Not for the bankers and Fedddie (Fannie + Freddie). I was saying this before I became an HBBer and people thought that I was an ill-will bear. Who want high prices for any of the necessities?

Jas

 
Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 11:34:50

Too often one’s views on housing are much the same as one’s views on social issues and religion. Whatever benefits the speaker the most is magically transformed into what is best for society as a whole, as logic and common sense are discarded.

Comment by az_lender
2008-10-20 12:52:11

I like to think that some persons on this board have tried to figure out what WILL happen and to act in such a way as to receive some benefit from that foresight. This is a little different from looking at one’s current situation and saying, Here’s what MUST happen to benefit ME. I am absolutely self-interested, but I would like to serve my interest by understanding what is happening and what is likely to happen in the near future, rather than by promoting a certain outcome that I can’t control anyway.

Comment by Tim
2008-10-20 13:48:33

True. My comment was more aimed at my belief that those owning houses in the subject area find it much more difficult to understand that housing prices falling back to normal is a good thing than those that rent, and that I don’t think its based on IQ as much as psychological.

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Comment by Eudemon
2008-10-21 04:52:04

There’s a larger contingent of similar-minded folk on this board than you might think, az lender. There’s you, me, Tim, SuzyK and kids above, Lost in Utah, Ben Jones, the poster above who’s thinking of moving to Iowa, etc. Probably 2-3 dozen others here who think similarly.

In 2-3 years, more Californians and New Yorkers (including those that post here and openly scoff at Middle America mindsets) will be thinking along the same lines. It’s about placing a premium on being nimble and flexible, and enjoying yourself all the while to the extent you can.

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Comment by oxide
2008-10-20 13:51:44

I’m kinda conflicted. I’m a couple notches on the liberal side of centrist.

But at the same time, I want to see all those rotten greedy SOB’s who ran me out of the market, refi’d into cash, and then shoved the evilly grinning front grille of their shiny new Escalade into my review mirror on the highway, and THEN got their Escalade bailed out by MY tax money (thanks, Mr. Goldman Sachs) get their just desserts.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:07:46

Grilles in my rear view mirror, itsa comin.
High season is here and folks from L.A. and OC, and elsewhere with their massive SUVs will imminently be shoving their grilles up our auto arses soon.Hurryhurryhurryhurry.

One thing I have noticed is that by this time, lots lots lots more RVs were driving into town by now.
Not so much, so far.
Oh and giant RV lot either moved or closed down completely. Large vacant space on HWY 111

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Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-20 16:47:31

RV stocks are decimated Fleetwood down to FIDDY cent

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=fle
————————————————————-
Oh and giant RV lot either moved or closed down completely. Large vacant space on HWY 111

 
Comment by are they crazy
2008-10-20 18:01:25

Desert: It will be interesting to see what season brings. Seems the only people with money are the oldsters (not boomers) who had pensions, paid off houses and lifetime medical. It was the quietest summer I’ve ever seen out here in the desert. Yet Macy’s was packed on Saturday.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-10-21 05:13:06

I wouldn’t look too much at the state of the economy when discussing Fleetwood. They’ve been building JUNK for years and now it’s all coming to bear.

 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2008-10-20 13:41:01

The question has oft been raised on this blog:

Why are house prices dropping seen as a bad thing, whereas gas prices dropping seen as a good thing?

The answer is found in this question - who pays a bigger (much, much bigger) percentage of the news media’s advertising revenue - the real estate industry, or the petroleum industry?

When’s the last time you saw several pages - nay often several sections of a newspaper devoted to gas station advertisements?

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 15:50:22

packman,

Or even more simply, what’s worse? Paying an additional $1,000 a year at the pump, or paying an additional $1,000 a MONTH on an overpriced home?

These FB’s were paying $3,500-$5,000 a month in adjustable mortgage payments but the extra dollar a gallon for gas was the straw that broke the camel’s back? I don’t get people some times?

Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 16:39:39

The straw that broke the FB’s bank was their fully amortizing monthly payment. Gas is just the most convenient excuse.

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Comment by Eudemon
2008-10-21 05:31:29

This one’s simple.

The answer lies in the Blame Game. An FB who got greedy and bought much more house than they could afford realize that they themselves are us culpable for being stupid as the NAR industry is for being crooked.

Gasoline prices, on the other hand…that’s all the petroleum industry’s fault. (It will never be, for example, the fault of politicians who for 35 years have never bothered coming up with an energy plan. Nor will it be the fault of environuts who block any and all progress to save the endangered wholly rat turd nymph). Petroleum companies, therefore, can be blamed for all of society’s ills.

The media, knowing this dichotomy exists, exploits the hell out of it. It’s good for ratings and it’s good for their side politically-speaking.

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Comment by peter m
2008-10-20 18:54:24

“Lance Larson, legislative director for San Bernardino County, said the Inland Empire has 100,000 homes in default or foreclosure - a $30 billion problem that doesn’t include thousands of previous and future foreclosures. ‘We’re also trying to increase demand,’ Larson said about drawing out buyers and propping up the region’s devastated real-estate values’”

Yu can now get an reo in IE for $100,000 -200,000 depending on location ,amt of home deterioration, ect. Problem is jobs . IE never had an economy to support $400,000-500,000 homes.
UE rate in IE is 10-12% and climbing. No quality jobs but plenty of cheap REOs. The cost to commute to LA/ OC for jobs would cost almost as much as a monthly nut on a $100,000 crappy fixer in the IE dive zones. That includes car deprecialtion and maintenance.

Lots of “ghost town” retail malls all over the IE.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-20 10:44:06

‘That means not confronting the people they see trespassing or squatting in the empty homes and not calling police about crime. ‘It has nothing to do with me,’ said a Shawnee Street resident who, with his own financial difficulties, is worried about losing his home.”

What a fookin’ waste of skin. I always assume that everything is my business, every single little d*mn thing that doesn’t look right.
When I hear about people who watch muggings happen, who hear screams in an alley and walk away hurriedly, who see suspicious bruises on little kids, and don’t at the very LEAST call the cops, it makes me so mad I can hardly stand it. No man is an island, and all that. I hope someone busts into this asshats house and steals his big-screen while all the neighbors just keep planting petunias and pretending they don’t see.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 11:45:58

WELL!!!? Since these abandoned homes are now the property of the American Taxpayer ANY damage should be treated just as if were any other Federal Property like the Post Office or even a Military Base.

I’m not putting up with this sh!t.

Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 12:59:08

You bring up a good point. Now that these buildings are public property, then I see no reason why we shouldn’t commission local (aspiring) artists to paint murals on them and put neat statues in the yards. We can plant grass on the roofs and turn them into social gathering spots. Old people can gamble in them. Wee!

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 13:15:19

I’m not going to sit idly by while these jitbags turn perfectly good neighborhoods into war zones. When they catch squatters and druggies they need to prosecute them like they were trying to break into Area 51.

But we won’t and our “collateral” will go from questionable to laughable. I mean it isn’t bad enough, what we’ve been through? Some posters had shared what happened in Moreno Valley, CA after the last CA real estate gold rush and I don’t think you’d like it?

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Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:10:55

B B guns filled with buckshot, the kind Cheney uses on friends, and then you just shoot randomly in the air at the squatted home.
All the while not being seen. Eventually the squatter/ tagger will go away?
Well, just thinking out loud.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:13:51

Or design said bb gun/salt peter gun into a yard ornament camouflage( make sure the aim is low and good) and maybe a water feature in your yard, then when it goes off, water covers up the sound, maybe have bird sounds go off, and aim for their butts.

 
 
 
 
Comment by catspit1
2008-10-20 13:22:46

Oly said “asshat”.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 13:52:24

It’s just that this unwinding phase of the boom promises to be every bit as wasteful and misguided as the ride up? On the way up mortgage brokers, builders and subs ran up cell phone bills, lunch tabs and somehow managed to cut corners AND be inefficient at the same time?

Now on the way down they have SQUAT for resources and the homes in various stages of completion just have to sit there and burn through cash like there was no tomorrow. So they went on the offensive by lobbying for even MORE special treatment when what they should have gotten was either a bill or a mandate to disassemble those freakin’ homes.

 
 
Comment by Mole Man
2008-10-20 17:44:19

Wasn’t the reference to bank owned homes? Banks are dumping properties like crazy in Sonoma County right now. Places that might have cost $250-350k are now going for $100-150k. The government has bought a large fraction of mortgages, but the banks are still very much involved with many properties. We also haven’t seen RTC2 yet. Also keep in mind that the more affordable areas of Sonoma County already had problems with drug dens and the like even during the peak of the boom.

 
 
Comment by SMF
2008-10-20 10:44:45

“‘That’s providing competition to multi-unit buildings,’ Howard said. ‘The rental housing economy has more options available right now.’”

So…next bubble to pop is the rental housing bubble, I see.

The original problem of overt speculation is still there, except that these new landlords expect two things:

1. They can easily find tenants
2. Prices will go back up to 2005 levels soon

‘Houston, we have a problem’

1. Too much rental stock out there. Hard to make a house cashflow when you can’t find renters.

2. We’ll never see 2005 inflation-adjusted prices in our lifetime.

Can’t these people just look at simple bubble charts, like dot.com NASDAQ, and figure out what is going to happen?

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-10-20 12:06:54

It’s really easy to find people that sign up as renters. It’s an entirely different matter to actually get any money out of them. You get all kinds of low-lives, crack heads and toothless wonders trying to move into your property. I used to run a boarding house in my college days, I know the drill….the check is in the mail.

 
Comment by az_lender
2008-10-20 12:54:39

“never see 2005 inflation-adjusted prices in our lifetime”

not in our children’s lifetime either.

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-20 10:47:50


“One reason apartment occupancy rates are slipping is that more single-family houses are coming onto the market as rentals, said Joshua Howard, executive director of the local division of the California Apartment Association. Some of those houses are previous foreclosures that were purchased by investors.”

“‘That’s providing competition to multi-unit buildings,’ Howard said. ‘The rental housing economy has more options available right now.’”

We are dealing with the pipeline problem with foreclosures (just as we did with builders). I expect a glut of rentals by 2009Q2 and rents to fall more than 10% in many parts of CA. I came to know of quite a few people who recently bought foreclosures (”good deals”!) that they plan to rent.

Jas

Comment by potential buyer
2008-10-20 12:07:39

I’m not sure their article is accurate. The Merc says the rental market is ‘tight’. Go on Craigslist and see how many there are, many are over priced though, back to that greed mentality again!
Also, investors still paid too much for their foreclosures because prices are continuing to drop, so if they hope to pass those prices on, good luck to that.

I’ve told my son to hold off renting for now — prices will really start to drop just after Xmas.

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-20 12:14:50


There are lags, or delays, in data reportings.

Jas

Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 13:05:31

Also, the Merc only tracks asking rentss. Asking rents have been skyrocketing ever since the crash began, but actual rents only increased 5% last year, and have not increased at all this year. That’s after dropping 20% from 1999-2001, then remaining flat from 2001-2006.

That paper is so full of it. One of the best things about moving out of San Jose is that I no longer have to suffer that damned newspaper anymore.

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Comment by az_lender
2008-10-20 13:00:54

I’m a little PO’d that the rental price for the unit I occupied last winter in Morro Bay CA has increased for this winter season. My mistake was just that I gave them a couple of full months of occupancy, and someone else did too. Phahk it, I am taking a different unit this winter. There are plenty available.

Thanks to everyone here for strengthening my resolve not to buy there JUST yet.

 
 
Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-20 11:07:24

“Property values were dropping, homes were being foreclosed, and people were abandoning their homes, because they owed more on their houses than they could recover by selling.”

For the past month, people have been abandoning their stocks because they paid more on their stocks than they could recover by selling at the price they bought them at.
I must be an economist.

 
Comment by Kim
2008-10-20 11:16:11

“Having foreclosure on her credit record has been ‘a huge setback’ when seeking to rent, she said. ‘Seeing the way things are, you’d think people would be a little more lenient… I’m sure there’s a lot of people in this situation.’”

Yup… every landlord’s dream: A proven deadbeat looking to move two families into one house.

The entitlement mentality lives on.

Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-20 11:30:19

Kim that jumped out at me also.
Two whole “south of the border” families could really equal four “americano” families in one home.

Let’s do the math. Mom, dad and two kids verses
Mom, dad, aunt, uncle, four kids, and six cousins. Lawdy! That’s about how far my math can go. Oh wait i forgot parents of parents and in laws and out laws. sixteen humans per home.

Comment by Jaz
2008-10-20 13:02:15

You said “home” but you meant to say “flophouse.”

 
 
Comment by denquiry
2008-10-20 11:48:49

That’s how they do things in mexifornia.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2008-10-20 12:34:14

She is unemployed too.

There has got to be more to this story. Bookkeeper buys house from grandmother for $800,0000. Almost immediately defaults on loan….

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-20 13:18:57

Yep, sounded a lot like loan-fraud to me… High-figure sale between related parties followed by immediate default? Her grandmother made bank on that one…

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 13:25:33

Prime,

I agree ( and that likely ‘was’ the case ) but in the Ponzi To End All Ponzi’s buyer and seller need not have been related to fondle each other’s booty. Sure it’s cozier when it’s all in the family but not a requirement by any means.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 13:22:27

Right. Well at least it worked out well for (1) party!?

All part of the Ponzi mindset. During the boom the seller would size you and your FICO up for size and whatever the MAX you can qualify for… THAT’S what I want for my house! It’s like they didn’t even haggle or anything.

Like *athena used to remind us; “No, I do *not want to pay for the seller’s retirement ( one-payment-at-a-time )”

Comment by DennisN
2008-10-21 00:58:12

Hey my buyer paid for MY retirement. What’s wrong with that? :)

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Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-20 11:20:16

She said she’ll be sorry to leave her house, which she and her husband bought from her grandmother for nearly $800,000 in early 2006. Its value has fallen to about $600,000 this year.

Why can’t greedy ‘ol granny give ‘em a bailout?

Comment by salinasron
2008-10-20 14:03:58

Because Granny ran back to Mexico to hide the profits!

 
Comment by ws
2008-10-20 17:10:57

“She said she’ll be sorry to leave her house, which she and her husband bought from her grandmother for nearly $800,000 in early 2006. Its value has fallen to about $600,000 this year.”

I wonder if their lender was informed that this was an interfamily transfer and most likely was not an arm’s length transaction. was the sales price based on actual market data in the area or was it falsified??i hope they were honest on their loan app about their income, assets, etc.

oops… i bet they didn’t have to document their income. and they probably didn’t put any money down and the probably got an option ARM loan and have been paying based on 1% interest. or did they stop making payments and are now screwing the lender?????

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-20 18:04:22

“I wonder if their lender was informed that this was an interfamily transfer and most likely was not an arm’s length transaction. was the sales price based on actual market data in the area or was it falsified??”

This was where an honest appraiser was supposed to come in. Of course, that didn’t happen, a numbers hitting hack just monkeyed around for a while and it was a done deal. Funny how these guys are flying so far under the radar.

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-10-20 18:18:40

The whole story sounds suspicious. If someone bothered to do some digging, they’d probably find that granny kicked back part of the ‘profits’ back to the grand-daughter, who then defaulted after making a couple of payments. Now the usual victim/sob story comes out as they execute their exit strategy with the booty.

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Comment by CA renter
2008-10-21 03:11:08

Granny’s probably still living there, and they’re all going to live large on the $800K granny got for the house.

They’ll go rent a small house — with 13 family members — and live like kings.

Too bad the lenders couldn’t get their heads out of their a$$es long enough to understand what was so obvious to the rest of us. Lots and lots and lots of fraud over the past few years. Now, we taxpayers are supposed to foot the bill. :(

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Max
2008-10-20 11:20:39

The Evergreen area, mentioned in the Mercury News article, is an upscale San Jose neighborhood by the East Hills. There are lots of gorgeous and big houses there. My guess is a lot of those $800K homes were bought with interest-only ARMs, or pay-option ARMs.

The article is important because this is the start of the second wave - Alt-A and prime loans defaults. This is not poor people beginning to get foreclosed on, this is the middle class.

Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 13:10:48

I’ve always thought that Evergreen was a Mexican slum neighborhood. I went to look a rental there once, but I could tell it was haunted. I got freaked out and ran out the side door, but the fence that led from the back yard to the front wouldn’t open, so then I got really freaked out and tried to jump the fence. They almost got me, but my husband fought them off so I could get back through the house to the front door.

Houses in East San Jose are mostly haunted.

Comment by Max
2008-10-20 13:38:07

Nope, Evergreen is very nice. Maybe you’re confusing with Alum Rock. I live near Evergreen.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-20 14:45:44

LOL!!

 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:18:46

BigV, sech a scardicat. sheesh. haha

 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-10-20 13:27:37

I think a lot of that second wave are refinances. They got a good FICO by paying a 30-year fixed like good citizens, then threw it all away into an ARM, and bought toys.

And who gets to subsidize them? Why, that would be the responsible crowd — because we’re the only ones who have any money left.

 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-10-20 15:05:44

I’ve never thought of Evergreen as upscale. We’re talking East San Jose, right? Yeah, there were some nice houses up there -up the hill a bit. But it was a death zone below.

 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-10-20 11:29:53

Is anybody tracking the sales of Top Ramen?

Comment by wmbz
2008-10-20 11:54:51

Bought a case over the weekend at Sam’s Club. Plan to hand out a few packets down at the food bank to any FB’s that show up.

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-20 12:35:02

Well, what flavor of Ramen didja get? ‘Oriental’ is my favorite flavor (just like in real life). I also like ‘Pork’ (just like in real life.) But I don’t like ‘Cajun chicken’ (just like in real life).

Comment by bink
2008-10-20 13:12:36

Send all the cajun chicken packets my way. Just don’t send me any pork or “I’ll make themyou famous”.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-20 13:33:56

Okay, binky. I’ll make a note of it.

I was just being frolicsome, by the way. Mostly. It was one of those opportunities to be sassy that could not be passed up. I’ve actually never met a real Cajun, let alone a cowardly one. I do like Asians quite a bit, which comes in handy being here in the PNW ’cause we got plenty, but on the other hand they are all shorter than me, which is too bad.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-10-20 14:10:14

My favorite is still… Chicken flavor.

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Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 13:33:30

Why not hand them out to trick-or-treaters?

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-10-20 15:15:52

That’s funny you should say that! Just last year I went trick-or-treating over on the Westside, this is here in Olympia, this is in the middle of a Halloween party that I wandered away from, because I saw a pretty flower, and what I got when I banged on the door was a packet of Chicken flavored Maruchan noodles! I said it was a super treat and then I think I fell over onto the doormat and was hauled into the house by a bunch of tree-hugging hooligans. I think it was a great party. Although honestly I have a hard time recalling the details, and also I came home in a different costume than the one I had on when I left my house.
All I know is:
I love tree-huggers! I love ramen noodles! Hallowe’en is pretty super!
I guess that’s it.

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Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-20 18:08:17

Your poor liver…

 
 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:20:18

Good idea. Hand out Top Ramen on Halloween.

Here is one for your mama, one for your daddy, and one for each of you. Now run along like a good little goblin …

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-10-20 11:40:55

“Anna Cohen, 25, squinted and frowned at the 2001 Honda Civic before settling. ‘I wanted a Volvo, but I guess I can’t afford it,’ the Turlock woman said Sunday. ‘They told me it was ‘out of my budget.’ But somehow it was within my little brother’s budget last year.”

That’s about right, 25 years old and don’t what you can or can’t afford.

I screwed up plenty financially when I was younger, but had a reasonable grasp of income and out go. I drove a $350.00 Ford Pinto POS (rolling bomb) for a year after I made some big mistakes at 26. I never feel sorry for anyone not getting the car they want.

Comment by AdamCO
2008-10-20 12:54:46

I paid cash for an ‘04 subaru when I was 25. Spring of 2007. Just thought I’d brag. No loans on depreciating assets!

Comment by packman
2008-10-20 13:48:28

One thing you must understand. Whether or not an asset is depreciating or not has no bearing on whether or not you should get a loan on it.

The only thing that has a bearing is the interest rate - specifically is it lower than what you would otherwise make investing in something else. If it is (after including taxes and fees, and also accounting for risk*), then it’s worth getting a loan, and investing the money elsewhere.

*Note that loan payoff risk is exactly zero. Thus for instance if you can pay off a 3.5% loan at zero risk, vs. investing in something (say a CD or bond) at 3.7% with minimal risk - you’re better off paying off the loan, since that’s an absolute guaranteed 3.5% gain. That’s one thing most people don’t take into account when calculating mortgage interest vs. say the stock market or something - mortgage payoff is zero risk; nothing else is.

Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 16:28:38

You also have to consider inflation. If the loan is going to cost you 3.5% a year, but inflation is going to cost you 5% a year, then the loan is better. You just have to make sure that you earn enough money to pay it off.

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Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 16:32:00

I should have clarified: This is what you consider when you don’t have the cash to buy what you want right now. Then the question is whether to borrow or save, not whether to borrow or invest.

 
Comment by packman
2008-10-20 17:57:06

Guess I was assuming it the former - borrow vs. pay cash (not save), since that’s what the original discussion was - assumption being that you need the the item now. I had the same scenario last year when I bought a Highlander Hybrid. I got into quite an argument with the finance manager when I wanted to pay cash but he was trying to talk me into 3.9% financing. At the time you could get CD’s generally for about 4.5% - I don’t think he ever got the fact that paying cash for the car was a better deal due to capital gains tax on the CD (since you can’t deduct interest on car loans). And that didn’t include the financing fees (not much, but still a factor). The dude even claimed he used to be a bank manger. Guess I know why he’s no longer a bank manager.

 
 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2008-10-20 17:39:37

I have a cute green Ford escort station wagon 1996 with 56K miles…but then i lived in Manhattan for 5 years and probably put less then 1000 miles a year when it stashed at my parents house.

 
Comment by Eli
2008-10-20 20:43:59

I’m 35 and I use an $1,800 annual bus pass paid for my employer. ;-)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 13:35:15

Holy catastrophe — people are struggling to come up with a 10 pct downpayment on a used Honda civic! Who on God’s earth both currently wants to buy a home and can also find a 10 pct downpayment to fund the purchase?

 
 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-10-20 11:45:50

Don’t know, but I recall hearing news reports earlier in the downturn (a few months back) that Walmart sales were up due to everyone starting to look for cheap. Wonder how they are doing at this point. I imagine even Walmart will be slammed this Christmas season, but who knows.

Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-10-20 11:47:35

Sorry, this should have been in response to Curt’s 11:29 post.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 13:27:19

Wally will sell a lot flashy cr@p, but a lot fewer big screen TVs.

On that topic I noticed in this week’s office deopt flyer that they are selling 42″ LCD TVs for $699.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-20 14:55:10

If you factor in inflation, I think their sales were actually down.

 
 
Comment by Jen Bones
2008-10-20 11:56:56

“‘If a janitor who makes $35,000 a year can finally afford a home at Sierra Lakes (in Fontana), so be it,’ Ruh added. ‘If a retail sales clerk who works atlives in a rehabilitated Banana Republic can finally afford a home, so be it. It seems that cities are more afraid of rentals than actually dealing with the problem.’”

Luv,
Jen

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-10-20 15:20:19

Personally, I have no problem with janitors being able to own homes. I live next door to a couple of them. I’ve also lived next door to a home-owning groundskeeper.

Neither of them were as problematic as other neighbors I’ve had (and have).

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-10-20 12:14:28

She said she’ll be sorry to leave her house, which she and her husband bought from her grandmother for nearly $800,000 in early 2006. Its value has fallen to about $600,000 this year. Even with family members’ help, they couldn’t afford the payments on their adjustable-rate mortgage, and they fell into foreclosure. They have stalled eviction by trying to find family members who would buy the house back from their lender. But eviction could occur anytime now.”

Gee - thanks Grandma? Can we still come over for cookies?

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-10-20 14:35:19

That’s one boomer who won’t have to worry about her retirement…unless she put her windfall into the stock market.

 
 
Comment by need 2 leave ca
2008-10-20 12:28:37

The hard-hit Pacific region has seen the steepest drop in the country, with California home prices tumbling a record 41 percent in August from a year earlier.”

Holy Batman. What a big drop. And when it was going up, everyone was partying and thought I was a loon for not going along. I didn’t wish any bad ill, but this was obvious to all but the greedy and Arnold.

 
Comment by Max
2008-10-20 12:36:25

Apparently Paulson is trying to force banks, who got cash from the Treasury, to lend. I always picture that scene from Pulp Fiction, with Samuel L. Jackson:

Paulson - I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU MOTHERFVCKER, to say “what?” one more GODDAMN TIME!!!…

Ken Lewis - wh-wha-at?…

a shot to the arm (BANG!)

Lewis - aahh-ahh (agonizing in pain)

Paulson - You read the bible, Ken?… Eiseikia 21…

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-10-20 13:13:56

I think it’s time to bring out the gimp.

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 13:30:16

Since Samuel L. Jackson plays basically the SAME character in every movie, I’d almost forgotten he was even in that? Might as well have been in it? Loud, agitated and armed… right? Gotcha.

And yes, it’s time to unleash the gimp.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 13:40:35

Since Samuel L. Jackson plays basically the SAME character in every movie

LOL! Even Mace Windu seemed to fit the mold.

I guess that having him star in a remake of “Marty” is out of the question?

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Comment by Rally
2008-10-20 14:41:52

Mace Windu: go get my lightsaber

Kenobi: Which one is it?

Mace: ITS THE ONE THAT SAYS BAD MUTHA F****** ON IT!

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-20 14:58:55

OT but a LOT of actors and actresses fit that mold. Very one dimensional, very limited. The roles they portray are almost “interchangeable”. One of a handful I even have any respect for is Tim Curry? He’ll do whatever the role calls for.

The rest are like realtors ( it’s ALWAYS a good time to buy! )

 
Comment by Joe Schmoe
2008-10-21 06:13:45

I always thought Kevin Costner was like that — he played exactly the same character in No Way Out, the Bodyguard, etc. — but when I saw that he can do comedy, too, I changed my mind about him. He’s a good actor.

 
Comment by stewie
2008-10-21 12:29:47

You’re right. Waterworld was HYSTERICAL!!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 12:37:55

She said she’ll be sorry to leave her house, which she and her husband bought from her grandmother for nearly $800,000 in early 2006. Its value has fallen to about $600,000 this year.

I’m betting that everyone in the family got a little piece of that pie. You’d think they’d be willing to give some of it back to this lady and her hubbie so they don’t have to move with 4 kids and an extended family in tow.

Comment by salinasron
2008-10-20 14:13:31

Why doesn’t she move in with other family members who own a home or are they about to be evicted too?

Maybe someday in the future the reporters will really dig in and report the true story as quick as they sought to discredit ‘Joe the Plumber’.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-10-20 14:56:40

I bet granma moved back to Mexico and bought a village.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-10-20 12:50:52

Southern California sales soaring as prices plunge.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ag1qaHCv71r4&refer=home

“‘The prices are low enough that people who would normally not be able to purchase are buying,’ said Stephanie Martin, owner of Champion Realtors, a San Bernardino-based residential brokerage.”

You mean the people who WERE normally able to buy but were frozen out by the abnormal housing bubble, don’t you Stephanie?

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-10-20 13:20:03

And I think that most of those sales are coming from specuvestors and vulture funds. Yesterdays priced out buyer who could now afford todays prices is currently unemployed or have had their income sliced and diced. That much talked about pool of buyers waiting on the sidelines are being picked off in droves by this little thing called the economy. You know, the recession that isn’t.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 13:37:54

What I wonder about is whether there will ever be a point in the never-ending “slowdown” when end-user demand overtakes speculative demand, or are the PTB hoping that hedge funds and REITs will keep the market propped up until the real buyers are confident, qualified and eager to buy again at ever-inflating prices? So long as SoCal prices are dropping at over 30 pct per year, I am content to watch and wait…

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-20 18:58:13

As the great transfer of wealth continues, perhaps the pig men and their ilk will own most of the real estate in this country, with the masses subject to a life of serfdom…

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Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-20 16:27:59

Just walked around the block. 3 new 4sales.
Prices have not come down one digit in this little gated burb. But the HOA went up to 550.
Sweet (dripping with sarcasm)

Not buying here, unless the price is less than 2ook.
Right now? $474 and holding. One has a Sold on it, but the rest are languishing.

 
 
Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-20 13:02:32

V;
Pelosi just made a new law to protect phantom down payments on homes. If you put any money down on a home, rest assured it will be there for you when you forclose or short sell. Just give us your stated income.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-20 13:11:11

‘I didn’t want him to throw money away on rent,’ she says….

I’m amazed how prevalent this meme still is, which is one of the many things that convince me this things has LONG ways to go.

Last week, I was heading home on transit and overheard someone who works for my company talking loudly on his cell-phone about some negotiations of final purchase price. He’s a young kid, relatively fresh out of school, apparently buying his first condo.

I walked with him a couple of blocks, giving him the brief rundown on why RE will be a train-wreck for at least the next few years, and why it was perhaps the worst time in several generations to be buying a house. In response, he regurgitated a few of the “standard” NAR party lines, including that he “didn’t want to keep throwing money away on rent”.

So, I told him I hoped it worked out great for him, and turned toward my place. You simply can’t save most of them from themselves. :-)

But it amazes me that this “throwing money away on rent” meme has not shifted out of popular use yet. Rest assured, it will.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 13:43:36

‘I didn’t want him to throw money away on rent,’ she says….

Gee, whatever happened to living on campus? Why does junior have to live in a 500K condo?

 
Comment by EggMan
2008-10-20 14:28:24

Man, rent is just Cash in the Trash!

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 19:01:32

Haven’t you heard about home owners loosing hundreds of thousands of dollars just be being the current owner of record on a falling knife real estate property? I could throw $2,300 into the “trash” of renting every month for another full year off the savings from not owning the median priced San Diego home for one month (Aug - Sept 2008 drop in median price = $350,000 - $328,000 = $22,000). The capital loss itself is worth 9 1/2 months worth of rent, and then there are also all the other components of PITI that loanowners throw into the FIRE each month.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 20:37:18

Dang! I fell into the blog’s favorite spelling trap (losing, not loosing…).

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 20:40:53

I hate to brag, but I just love the pun I just thought up in response to your stupid, trollish post:

Paying a mortgage is like throwing away money into the FIRE*.

*FIRE = Finance, insurance and real estate sectors

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 16:20:25

You should have told him that throwing money away on rent will be cheaper than throwing it away on a condo that is overpriced by at least $100k. You can rent the typical apartment for about 5 1/2 years with $100k, then rent for another 5 1/2 years using the money you saved in interest. That’s 11 years of renting all paid for by simply not buying right now.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-20 19:56:00

Believe me, Big V–I _DID_ try to tell him that! I asked him to think about 100K+ losses, Cali down 30%, us being JUST as overpriced as Cali, owning being throwing the after-tax-effect-interest in the trash (e.g. more than rent!), etc etc etc.

It was like talking to a freaking wall.

I’ll give almost anyone who will listen a _short_ overview, but I have to care about someone before I’ll spend hours of my time to try to protect them from themselves…

 
 
Comment by Mike G
2008-10-20 23:38:06

This implosion won’t be over until all the lazy-shorthand financial mantras about housing, that made people eager to buy regardless of financial sense, are thoroughly discredited –

Houses always go up
Rich people want to live here
They aren’t making any more land
Owning a house is a mark of social status
Owning a big trophy house is a bigger mark of social status
Owning a house at a mortgage/tax/insurance cost 3x renting is financially astute
Renting is throwing your money away
Buying a condo for your kid at college is a smart move
A house is a retirement nest-egg like a 401k (oops), not a deteriorating structure that provides shelter

The decades-long era of ever-expanding credit is over. It was not permanent reality, and the world is not kind to people who lack financial knowledge and prudence, as a lot of people are going to find out the hard way.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-20 13:41:45

“‘I love it in San Diego,’ Powell said. ‘Just the thought of ever being able to afford a place by myself, it just doesn’t seem like that is going to be possible in the near future, if ever.’”

This is a huge reason why lower home prices are a good thing! Despite large declines, San Diego prices are still scaring away qualified workers. If prices eventually settle out at affordable levels, a young, vibrant workforce will lay down roots and plant the seeds for a recovery to long-term economic prosperity.

Comment by CA renter
2008-10-21 03:20:34

Exactly!

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-20 13:44:34

“Real estate agents said neighbors can help protect vacant properties by being observant and active before fire danger begins. First, said agent James Madison, appliances are typically taken from vacant houses. Next, trash is dumped in the yard. Then windows are broken and graffiti starts appearing, and squatters, from overnight partiers to longer-term occupants, move in. ‘It goes in stages,’ Madison said.”

Old School-Staging: Pretty up a house for sale.

New School-Staging: Squatters render a house unsalable.

Comment by Skip
2008-10-20 14:59:15

Old School Asset Protection: Banks taking care of the properties they have foreclosed on.

New School Asset Protection: In form neighbors that they need to take care of properties that have just been foreclosed on.

 
 
Comment by EggMan
2008-10-20 14:29:29

How can I find out recent sale prices in Alameda County? The corner unit sold (was listed at 240K, down from 400K paid at the peak) and I’m dying to find out how short the final haircut was.

Comment by catspit1
2008-10-20 14:43:25

Zillow.com for one. That’ s how i know the 750k deluxe lodging i inhabit sold for 180k in 1988. When it gets close to that again, i might be interested…

 
 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-10-20 15:02:22

The Modesto Bee. “Anna Cohen, 25, squinted and frowned at the 2001 Honda Civic before settling. ‘I wanted a Volvo, but I guess I can’t afford it,’ the Turlock woman said Sunday. ‘They told me it was ‘out of my budget.’ But somehow it was within my little brother’s budget last year.’”

Doesn’t anyone grow up any more?

Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-20 15:42:14

Kids today expect to start driving at 16, Honda’s are below their deserved status so BMW’s, Lexuses, and Volvos and Audi’s are the car’s they drive. On lease of course.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-10-20 16:07:04

I guess it is “different” over in Cali. None of my kids friends have cars like those. My daughter has a hand me down Saturn Vue (4 years old and worth maybe 11K as a trade in) and she has the envy of her friends, most of whom drive 10 year old beaters.

Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-20 16:44:17

Oh yeah, Cars are very important here as status symbols. Most of the kids in my heathclub drive far more expensive cars than I would ever consider buying. My Car is 8 years old with 150K on it, no style points for me !

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Comment by BanteringBear
2008-10-20 18:15:19

The car importance is just an extension of that overly pronounced image obsession which much of CA seems to be suffering from, my sister included. People would almost rather starve than be caught dead in something deemed uncool.

I’ve thought about getting rid of my newer truck, and buying some old beater late 60’s model pickup, rust and all. All I care about is that it runs well. I enjoy being able to not worry about that new dent or scratch, or the dog hair and drool deposits that my furry friend is famous for.

 
 
Comment by Mike G
2008-10-20 23:41:05

I work at a university and I drive a cheaper, older car than 95% of the student vehicles.

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Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-20 15:35:35
Comment by are they crazy
2008-10-20 18:20:32

Mo: It seems that lately people have been somehow emboldened to show their worst in public. This guy thinks that what he did was OK and has no worry at all that in the communications of today - the entire world will be able to see this. It’s like these people at these political rallies that have no compunction about spewing crazy hateful venom. It seems there’s no shame or embarrassment anymore. The house has been in the family over 30 years, they didn’t make the payments (what payments after 30 years?) so the bank took it back - how is he the victim anyway?

Comment by laughing boy
2008-10-21 07:27:10

Hey Crazy, if there’s an email address for the journalist in the article, you should send what you’ve written above. That’s exactly the point that should be made. “How is he a victim anyway?” Very well put.

 
 
 
Comment by friar john
2008-10-20 16:57:26

The region’s hammered real-estate market could spiral downward even further if the concept doesn’t come together, which could slide the local economy into a deeper recession than expected, proponents say. ‘It could devastate our economy for the next decade,’ said Steve PonTell, president of Upland-based La Jolla Institute, a nonprofit economic research organization.”

————————————————————-

Pray Tell Pontell, what is an Upland based nonprofit organization riding on the coattails of the La Jolla name? Economic research is such a pedestrian endeavor with no redeeming economic or social value. We in La Jolla have institutes catering to biomedical research trying to find solutions to the most pressing health concerns of the aging population. These researchers are integral to the both the intellectual and social life of La Jolla. How would you like it if we named the esteemed Institute for the study of degenerates, the Upland Institute?

 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-20 17:04:33

Hi All:

Let’s meet up at LJ Quinn’s Lighthouse Pub‎ in Oakland on Saturday, November 8th at 7 PM. I will make reservations if you guys RSVP to BigVHBB at gmail dot com.

Address:
51 Embarcadero Cv
Oakland, CA 94606

Phone Number:
(510) 536-2050

Website:
quinnslighthouse dot com

See you guys,
Big V

 
Comment by Pearsey von Peepwig
2008-10-20 17:06:57

Duck, the sky is falling.

 
Comment by Pearsey von Peepwig
2008-10-20 17:15:46

Lawrence Yun is a real quack.

 
Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-10-20 18:27:47

Poor ol’ Yoo Mi-rae has lost a lot of dough-ray-me!

 
Comment by Comrade lainvestorgirl
2008-10-20 19:32:49

“They lost their home in August. Rodrigo was devastated, returning to care for the landscaping, even though, as he said, ‘The bank owns my house.’”

The guy is still gardening his foreclosed house? That’s the saddest FB story I’ve heard so far.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-10-20 19:58:03

I concur–that’s a side that I never saw coming. Poor fella.

 
Comment by skb
2008-10-20 20:10:43

“They lost their home in August. Rodrigo was devastated, returning to care for the landscaping, even though, as he said, ‘The bank owns my house.’”

That guy must be the only one in the entire country that actually feels some sense of pride and responsibility, to think he comes back to mow the lawn.

Today I looked at a REO that was stripped toilet gone, busted walls, missing a/c unit in house and outside, fountain broken and gone, missing stairs to attic, ruined brand new carpeting with stains and holes everywhere, all of the appliances were gone. They even ripped out plants and trees and ruined the yard best they could. This house was brand new in 2004.

What did they leave you may ask?

A framed copy of the serenity prayer hanging in the kitchen.

“God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference”.

They certainly “changed” a lot of things, to bad they didn’t understand the concept of the prayer.

 
 
Comment by catspit1
2008-10-20 20:00:27

probly some sweet Sinsemilla o yesss…

 
Comment by Big Kahuna
2008-10-25 11:10:43

The derivatives market is over $500 trillion. This dwarfs the rest of the economy. If I were in that business, what I would be thinking right now is “how can I convert dollars which will surely become worthless into something that will represent real wealth if there’s a collapse”? There isn’t enough gold in the world. The only other possibility is real estate. I would want to be buying up mortgages. Not necessarily the good ones, but the bad ones. If you own the mortgage on a foreclosed property, you at least get the property, even if vandals trash the house. So my question is this: is it possible that hedge fund managers and their ilk will get “stuck” with toxic mortgages, complaining all the while, yet in the end be able to convert worthless dollars to real estate, which will still contain some value? Or is that just a crazy conspiracy theory?

 
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