October 21, 2008

Everything Is For Sale That’s Got Dirt On It

The San Diego Business Journal reports from California. “The number of home sales in San Diego rose more than 56 percent in September, compared to September 2007, as median home prices fell by more than 30 percent in the same period, MDA DataQuick reported. The median price of a San Diego home or condo fell to $328,000 last month, compared to $470,000 in September 2007. MDA DataQuick President John Walsh cautioned that the housing market has yet to respond to the financial crisis that erupted last month.”

“‘You have to view last month’s sales in the proper context,’ Walsh said. ‘They represent escrow closings, which reflect purchase decisions made in mid- to late summer. That was before the dramatic worsening of the nation’s economic crisis in recent weeks. Over the next few weeks, our sales data will begin to show how the meltdown in financial markets this fall has impacted housing demand.’”

The Whittier Daily News. “The 20,497 homes and condominiums sold in the six-county Southern California region was up 5.8 percent from August and 64.6 percent from the 12,455 sold in September 2007, according to MDA DataQuick. Given the economic struggles and prolonged slump in the housing market, the bar compared to last year already had been set pretty low.”

“‘The pitifully low September 2007 sales numbers were not hard to beat,’ DataQuick President John Walsh said in a statement.”

“The resales were highest in areas with the highest foreclosure rates. Riverside County topped DataQuick’s list with the highest resale rate (68.9 percent of all sales), followed by San Bernardino County (63.1 percent); San Diego County (47.3 percent); Ventura County (44 percent); Los Angeles County (39.1 percent); and Orange County (36.8 percent).”

“That demand likely won’t remain as intense, said Steve Johnson, Southern California director of Metrostudy. ‘I’m not sure we can sustain that activity,’ he said.”

The Press Enterprise. “A flood of discounted foreclosed properties spurred record year-over-year increases in home sales last month in Riverside and San Bernardino counties, while the median price throughout the Inland region fell almost 37 percent. The median price of homes sold last month was $237,000 in Riverside County and $205,000 in San Bernardino County.”

“Bank-owned homes constituted almost two-thirds of sales of existing homes in Riverside and San Bernardino counties.”

“Steve Johnson, director of MetroStudy, a Riverside consultant to developers, said although builders have reined in construction and lowered their prices, at the current sales pace it would take another eight months to sell what they have if no more homes were built.”

The Associated Press. “John Husing, an economist with Economics & Politics Inc, said the ample supply of discounted, foreclosed homes has kept downward pressure on prices. Once foreclosures start drying up, prices will stabilize, but that could take another year, he said. ‘The flow of foreclosures is enough to meet demand,’ he said.”

“Andrew LePage, an analyst with MDA DataQuick, said it’s hard to estimate how many mortgage defaults were still in the pipeline. Some lenders are simply jammed with a backlog of paperwork, and the number of defaults by prime mortgage holders is increasing, he said.”

“The September sales figures largely reflect purchase decisions made during the summer. ‘The numbers don’t reflect the sheer terror of the last three weeks,’ Husing said.”

From WBIR. “Here’s a rare sight, a sold sign on an L.A. County house. In fact homes had their highest year to year sales gain ever. 65% increase. But the median price dropped to $308,500 dollars, much less than the over $500,000 last year. And homes in foreclosure counted for 39% of these home sales.”

“Realtor Denis Bolen says ‘it’s great news. A lot of people are taking advantage of wonderful sales right now. Admittedly a lot of them are foreclosures and then there’s a certain percentage that are short sales. But, the bottom line is that a lot of people are finding homes and it’s great news for the real estate industry.’”

“Elsewhere, Circuit City said it’s closing 150 stores. Thousands of jobs will be lost. All over LA, signs of recession and weak sales are everywhere. It’s too late for Shoe Pavilion. It’s closing down its chain. Thousands of employees losing their jobs. In fact sales of new shoes have fallen dramatically because many people are choosing to fix up their current shoes.”

“So, Victor’s Shoe Repair in Burbank, doing okay. Shoe repairman Isaac Goli says ‘there’re fixing them. They’re taking their shoes from their closets and saying ‘if I can fix this shoe for 20 bucks, 30 bucks, or go by a new shoe for 110 bucks’. So they’re just fixing them to get by for the mean time to see what’s happening.’”

The Press Democrat. “A study issued Monday by the construction industry estimates the Sonoma County economy lost $151 million in reduced spending and more than 900 building-related jobs last year as a direct result of the sharp drop in housing starts.”

“‘Home building is a big employer and a big economic engine that’s almost run out of gas. We’re at the lowest point we’ve been at since World War II. So it’s not too good,’ said Robert Rivinius, CEO for the California Building Industry Association.”

“Across California, more than 1 of every 4 workers in construction companies and affiliated firms lost their jobs last year, according to the study. The slump wiped out more than 74,000 construction and affiliated jobs last year. A quick turnaround is unlikely, Rivinius said. ‘We are off dramatically again in 2008, and prospects for 2009 really don’t look much better,’ Rivinius said.”

The Mercury News. “The report, quantifying the economic benefits of housing, was issued Monday by the California Building Industry Association, which called on lawmakers to make the housing recovery their top priority. ‘The declines are staggering,” said Ryan Sharp of the Sacramento Regional Research Institute, which prepared the report. ‘Some of the hardest hit areas include Southern California’s Inland Empire, where the output totals and employment impacts fell nearly 50 percent from 2006 to 2007.’”

“Economic output from new home construction in the state peaked at $68 billion in 2005, dropping to $55.2 billion in 2006 and $39.7 billion in 2007, the study found. Residential building permits, which exceeded 212,000 in 2005 in California, shrank to 161,000 in 2006 and 110,000 in 2007.”

The Record Searchlight. “The Redding Redevelopment Agency on Monday night unanimously endorsed the idea of granting $1.2 million in subsidies for affordable housing in a large new subdivision proposed for the north side of town by a private, for-profit developer. The agency also voted 4-1 to approve a $476,000 loan for three second-story affordable apartments in the Gateway Building, proposed at Market and Shasta streets downtown by another private, for-profit builder.”

“Some agency members had misgivings about the idea of subsidizing new homes in a large subdivision when Redding has built up nearly a year’s worth of housing inventory since the market downturn started in 2006. Agency board member Dick Dickerson said he wanted more information on where low-income household fit in today’s real estate market.”

“‘We need some strategies on how we can best use redevelopment money to meet the needs of today’s market, not what we were doing a few years ago,’ Dickerson said.”

The Merced Sun Star. “From an empty dusty field just outside of Livingston, the Diablo range and orchards take up most of the view. The only signs of the nearby town are the tan buildings of one of Livingston’s new developments. But if all goes according to plan, this piece of farmland could sprout houses instead of crops.”

“‘Now the tentative map and development agreements are moving forward for annexation and pre-zoning,’ said Donna Kenney, Livingston’s senior planner.”

“It may seem an ill-timed project, but it’s been in the works for several years, she said. Besides raising property values, said Kenney, the project would have several positive effects on the city.”

“Bill Nicholson, executive officer of LAFCO, says his organization has yet to see any application for the annexation. LAFCO, or the Local Agency Formation Commission, is a state body that has jurisdiction over cities’ annexations. Before the city moves forward, LAFCO would have to answer several questions: Does the city have a lot of empty land already? Does the land in question have adequate access to sewer and other utilities? And, finally, is there a need?”

“Because the market is so weak, a lot of land is being sold off whether they are involved the annexation process or not, said Andy Krotik, a local Realtor. Once owners start the process — the environmental impact reports, the planning documents — they don’t want to stop and then have to start all over, regardless of whether they’re selling the land, said Krotik. ‘Once you jump off the diving board, you can’t go back,’ he said.”

“In any case, the landowner has almost five years in which it can extend its plans before it must start over, said Krotik. If times are bad, the landowner can wait it out.”

‘Just down the road from the property is Doreva Produce. Aaron Silva, the manager at Doreva, said he’d heard the land was for sale. As for annexation, he said it seemed a little premature when there are clots of empty houses in town, and people being foreclosed across the county.”

“It will be a long time till anyone develops those lots, he said. Even so, ‘Everything is for sale that’s got dirt on it.’”

The San Francisco Chronicle. “A subdued and noticeably smaller group of mortgage bankers gathered at Moscone West this week for the Mortgage Bankers Association’s 95th annual convention and expo.”

“‘It’s dead,’ said Dean Williams, CEO of real estate auction company Williams & Williams, who was attending his fifth MBA conference amid a sea of black suits and somber faces. ‘These are the people who look good and smile and make loans. This is a very startling year for the mortgage industry and mortgage bankers. It’s questionable what their role will be in the future. The mood is shell shock.’”

“The new chief executives of Fannie and Freddie, along with their head regulator from HUD, talked about how they plan to improve liquidity in a frozen credit market and help stem a tidal wave of foreclosures. ‘There is no doubt the pendulum swung too wildly in the last couple of years on taking risk,’ said Jim Lockhart, director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which oversees Mac and Mae. ‘Underwriting standards fell. Risky mortgages were undertaken. Action needs to be taken to make sure the pendulum doesn’t go too far the other way.’”

“Kieran Quinn, the Mortgage Bankers Association’s chairman, addressed what went wrong with home lending, leading to the current crisis. ‘It was a golden age of finance. We thought we had solved everything,’ he said. ‘Everyone just believed that housing prices would just keep climbing. All this led many folks to belief that leverage was safe, so they became more highly leveraged. Guess what? It was not safe. Today we are going through the most painful de-leveraging in the history of finance.’”

“MBA members attending the conference said they’re still adjusting to new realities. ‘Mortgage money remains frozen,’ said Patricia Arvielo, VP of operations at a medium sized lender from Irvine. ‘Yes, there’s some out there, but it’s only a trickle and it’s only for the few.’”

“She said her company receives about 4,000 calls per month, and only about 40, or 1 percent, can qualify for a loan.”

“A noisy but contained protest greeted delegates to the Mortgage Bankers Association’s 95th annual convention, which began Monday at Moscone Center, as the real estate finance industry is tarred by association with a housing market that’s collapsed like a deck of cards along with the financial strife that followed.”

“Consumer anger was palpable Monday morning when about 40 protesters greeted some of the early attendees of the mortgage bankers’ gathering. Marching before the conference center, they carried signs saying ‘Jail them, don’t bail them’ and ‘Grand theft bailout.’ A steady stream of slogans and chanting accompanied the signs, laying blame at the gathered industry.”

“Around downtown, as the conference got under way, passers-by said they thought that greed is the root of the crisis, which has spread globally. ‘It was greed, arrogance, overconfidence,’ said Henrik Amneus, a tourist from Stockholm, Sweden, walking through Yerba Buena Gardens. ‘Incompetence also, basically, at the bottom of it.’”

“‘They were taking a chance - chancing that this would not be revealed,’ said his wife, Anne, referring to risky mortgage investments.”

“‘No one was watching the store,’ said Bob Stice of San Francisco and Malibu. ‘The trouble is these guys (in Congress) have been getting so much money from the banking institutions, so they have been very friendly,’ said Stice, who said his own considerable stock portfolio is down 35 percent. ‘To see a life’s work, 35 percent of it, just go away because of some really stupid investments on the part of people we relied on - the banks.’”

“Mike Detwiler of Denver, whose company writes software for mortgage bankers, said he agreed that the $700 million bailout was inappropriate.”

“‘The government should let the system work itself out,’ he said. ‘I don’t agree with the government intervention because I don’t know where it stops. When you are putting $700 billion in, then what? They say they have a plan now, but there is no empirical evidence that it is going to change anything. Once you start getting a handout, where does it stop?’”




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117 Comments »

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-21 14:39:51

“Bank-owned homes constituted almost two-thirds of sales of existing homes in Riverside and San Bernardino counties.”

The Empire has no close…

Comment by Comrade lainvestorgirl
2008-10-21 15:18:12

I wouldn’t take one if it was free.

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:23:00

i wouldn’t *live* in one if it was free, but i would take it

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 15:26:41

So you could pay taxes on something you don’t use?!?

Want to rethink that position?

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Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:30:20

i would imagine you could rent it out for more than the tax– if not then, yes, i would have to rethink it.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 15:55:07

Not true.

Try Detroit (or Buffalo.) Can’t make those babies cash-flow.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 15:55:39

Yes, you could use it as a JT farm. I would have thought that pussycat, of all people, could have thought of that. Looks somebody needs cookies. Quick, people, get this man a cookie. HE’S STARTING TO LOSE IT.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 15:58:35

I never had it to begin with. ;-)

 
Comment by Leighsong
2008-10-21 20:21:08

…The median price of a San Diego home or condo fell to $328,000 last month, compared to $470,000 in September 2007…

O.K. - who needs a…

what?

Home or condo…eh?

Jesus Madia, are these numbers correct?

Hit me hard, with a two x four!

Good night Irene,

Leigh

 
 
Comment by pismoclam
2008-10-21 21:22:30

Id take it and rent it out for 5 years. If it went up in value Id pay the defaulted taxes, if not Id walk. hehehehehehe

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Comment by peter m
2008-10-21 20:58:19

“Bank-owned homes constituted almost two-thirds of sales of existing homes in Riverside and San Bernardino counties”

The evil empire sprouts a host of new suckers investing in crappy reos for %100,000-150,000. Where to buy that IE crapper? Is it in San Berdoo-an ugly barren withered wastaland of mile- long sterile warehouses, grimy truck yards , empty hollow strip malls, completely given over to illegal-alien gang banger spawn/and other assorted riffraff. Would anyone buy an IE crapper/fixer for even $100,000. San berdoo is a wreak - the economy is in shambles as it was all retail and construction, with a few logistics sectors(low paying warehouse work) thrown in. EU is 12-15 % and climbing. The high flying contractors working the IE building boom are collecting EDD UE or doing small side jobs just to survive . October financial meltdown just nailed the coffin lid on the badly deteriorated IE corpse .

The suckers buying up IE foreclosures are just the next wave-and many will simply screw over the banks as soon as the lose their jobs which will be the recurring theme in the IE/CA next several years. Look for a new second wave of foreclosures sprouting all over the lovely IE like new weeds sprouting up in a neglected garden.

Comment by az_lender
2008-10-22 05:49:01

Maybe comparable to the kr@pE reos being bought like hotcakes for $60-$90K in Cape Coral FL. (Am lending on one now.) It does cross my mind that this stuff is made for the next wave of FC’s; OTOH the FL zero% income tax attracts actual retirees, which IE can’t do.

 
 
 
Comment by SMF
2008-10-21 14:41:40

When everybody start realizing that a lot of the current sales are STILL driven by speculators looking for a massive return when the market comes back, then we can call this market fixed.

Still way too many people don’t realize what happened.

Look at any bubble chart, and you can easily tell that the expected prices will not be seen in our lifetime.

Yet too many think they will be here again soon.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-21 16:34:58

It’s funny to think about these savvy knifecatching investors nowadays - running around like a little kid who just found a quarter on the playlot.

The duration of this event will crush them.

Comment by Comrade lainvestorgirl
2008-10-21 16:59:55

As of right now, a lot of properties would break even on rents or even have positive cash flow, so if you bought and values fell another 20 or 30%, I think you’d still be okay even if under water, unpleasant as it is.

Comment by SMF
2008-10-21 17:19:03

But when you buy hoping to cash out in 5 years, it is a whole different story.

And what has not been mentioned too much are the stagnant rents.

Those who want to become long-term landlords may do OK. But often, you read how someone expects their $100K investment home to be worth $300K in 5 years.

When they realize that will not happen, then this bubble will be completely over.

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Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-21 19:10:16

“As of right now, a lot of properties would break even on rents.”

Ah yes, that’s the theory. But in light of the massive layoffs coming down the pike, who’s going to rent all of these vacant “investor” houses?

There’s going to be a ton of folks who’d love to rent these places, quantity is no problem, but what’s the quality of these folks in light of income, cleanliness and creditworthiness??

Section 8 gangland city, here we come…

DOC

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Comment by combotechie
2008-10-21 17:16:58

“It’s funny to think about these savvy knifecatching investors nowadays - running around like a little kid who just found a quarter on the playlot.”

Knifecatchers should be encouraged at every opportunity.

Comment by peter m
2008-10-21 21:53:22

“It’s funny to think about these savvy knifecatching investors nowadays - running around like a little kid who just found a quarter on the playlot”

The Scal increase in foreclosure buying occurred in summer 2008 before the sept/oct financial collapse. These fools who brought these reos at supposed bargains will soon sweat over keeping/losing their jobs. They think that they can do the old fix and flip like in the old days pre 2008. The game has changed . The rapidly rising CA UE rate and worldwide credit squeeze will kill off these second wave of knifecatchers.

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Comment by incredulous
2008-10-21 16:36:09

With all the trouble Hank’s going through to get bank’s to lend to business’s and persons, why not just forego banks and lend directly? The IRS already has the database, with the next round of stimulus check just include a Treasury credit card for each individual American. The cost to administer such a program would be virtually nothing compared to what they’re wasting now. Obama could use the data to adjust credit limits/min payments as he sees fit.

 
Comment by are they crazy
2008-10-21 18:07:56

If they’re investors, then they have to admit it’s not a primary residence, right? If so, don’t they pay a higher interest rate?

 
Comment by Carlos Cisco
2008-10-21 18:40:44

Still plenty of them $1 specials for the hungry landlords here in Cleveland; discounts to California infestors is they buy them by the gross. Come on down!

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-21 14:48:57


The Bay Area Is NOW the Undisputed Champion of Collapsing Home Prices

Early leaders in sharp declines in home prices were FL, San Diego & Sacramento; followed by Las Vegas, Phoenix and L.A. Now the sharpest price declines are taking place in the two NorCal metros. So far the declines are concentrated in rural/peripheral parts of SF and SJ metros, but soon the hammer will fall on Cupertino, Los Altos, Palo Alto, etc., once the local tech Scams, especially AAPL, GOOG & HPQ, give up all their gains of the past 4 years. I fully expect my forecast of 50-80% decline in Los Altos 94022 to materialize before 2010 is out.

I don’t recall 101 SFH listings for Palo Alto that I saw yesterday. Inventory in high-priced areas is rising fast. The median listing price for Moron Hills (south of San Jose where lot of morons paid 0.5-1.5M for ordinary homes over the past 5 years) is still $800K with 15-20 months worth of inventory on the market. The prices, at $300 PPSF, are still too high even after falling 30-40%. Very few zip codes in the US will support prices more than $200 PPSF during the depression that is coming to California in 2009 and the US in 2010. The whole of Bay Area will see price declines of 50-80% (depending upon the zip codes) from the peak. 80% decline from the peak for Palo Alto is a good target. Other than fraud and Scams the Bay Area is not special. It has too many people with mental attitude problems due to Scam money having flooded the area.

Bay Area median is down 39.8% from the peak of $665K in July & August of 2007.

Jas

Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:11:45

I have a friend who initially told me that her son and daughter-in-law (both higly paid executives) had bought their house in Los Gatos with a 50% down payment, and had paid the rest of it off in two years. Well, last time I talked to her, she had changed her tune. All the sudden, there was some detail about stock options that she didn’t really understand. The house hadn’t been paid off after all and, even with a 50% down payment, they still had an outstanding balance of $1.5 MM on their “cute” 3/2 (no refi or HELOC, just a doozy of an overprice).

How much you want to bet they were keeping their stock options on the market, counting their house as “paid off”, under the assumption that they could sell their stock at any time and pay it “if they wanted to”? Kind of like a drug addict who won’t quit because he could do it any time “if he wanted to”, so he figures he doesn’t have a problem.

But wait, there’s more! When they first bought the house, they had no kids and 2 VP incomes. They both worked close to home. But how things change. Today, she has 2 kids and really needs to quit. She tried taking an easier (lower-paying) job, but it’s still too much (director level). Meanwhile, he switched jobs and now commutes all the way to San Francisco every day. She might have quit already, I don’t know.

Where are they going to get that remaining $1.5 MM? How long will it take before he finally realizes that commuting 4 hours a day is no way to live? When will they finally sell that house and hopefully get their down payment back?

Comment by az_lender
2008-10-21 16:20:34

Get their down payment back? Wouldn’t that mean they’d have to sell the house for the original purchase price, or better? How likely is that? (When did they buy it? 1999?)

Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:34:09

I think they bought it in 2004. There’s no way they’re getting that money back, I just meant that THEY are the ones who are hoping.

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Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 17:41:17

great story

 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-10-21 20:10:05

“under the assumption that they could sell their stock at any time and pay it “if they wanted to”

stock options not good until they vest. Counting on unvested stock options is like counting chickens before they hatch

 
 
Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-21 18:23:04

You’re way to optimistic Jas. Interest rates are set to SOAR, as in double if not triple. 10%, 12%, 18%, plus taxes that yearly eat up 20% of the median income? Where is the money going to come from to fund every government’s budget deficit?

We might be talking a Federal Budget deficit of $1.5 TRILLION in Obama’s first year.

All bets are off once interest rates start tapping double digit percentages. HBB so far has focused on buying the bottom at 6%-8% interest rates. How much further down will that bottom be at 12% interest rates? Japanese real estate lost 85% and stayed down there.

Detroit-ification is the hot new housing bubble bursting drama series!

 
Comment by Mot
2008-10-22 19:54:32

The Bay area is special - people who bought the in the last four years are going to be classified as “special” students of real estate economics.

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-21 14:49:00


The Bay Area Is NOW the Undisputed Champion of Collapsing Home Prices

Early leaders in sharp declines in home prices were FL, San Diego & Sacramento; followed by Las Vegas, Phoenix and L.A. Now the sharpest price declines are taking place in the two NorCal metros. So far the declines are concentrated in rural/peripheral parts of SF and SJ metros, but soon the hammer will fall on Cupertino, Los Altos, Palo Alto, etc., once the local tech Scams, especially AAPL, GOOG & HPQ, give up all their gains of the past 4 years. I fully expect my forecast of 50-80% decline in Los Altos 94022 to materialize before 2010 is out.

I don’t recall 101 SFH listings for Palo Alto that I saw yesterday. Inventory in high-priced areas is rising fast. The median listing price for Moron Hills (south of San Jose where lot of morons paid 0.5-1.5M for ordinary homes over the past 5 years) is still $800K with 15-20 months worth of inventory on the market. The prices, at $300 PPSF, are still too high even after falling 30-40%. Very few zip codes in the US will support prices more than $200 PPSF during the depression that is coming to California in 2009 and the US in 2010. The whole of Bay Area will see price declines of 50-80% (depending upon the zip codes) from the peak. 80% decline from the peak for Palo Alto is a good target. Other than fraud and Scams the Bay Area is not special. It has too many people with mental attitude problems due to Scam money having flooded the area.

Bay Area median is down 39.8% from the peak of $665K in July & August of 2007.

Jas

Comment by bubbleswamy
2008-10-21 15:11:31

why do you think it’s such a high percentage “50 to 80%”? infact the median price in cupertino has increased in the last one year… Oct 07 to Oct 08…

 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:38:59

He thinks it because that what incomes will support once the NINJA loans and high-paying trash jobs are rooted out of the system.

 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-21 14:51:23


dude,

City Zip Code PPSF PPSF From peak
Palmdale 93550 $96 -67.2%
Palmdale 93551 $109 -50.6%
Palmdale 93552 $96 -57.0%
Palmdale 93591 $69 -72.4%

Average ALLZIP $93 -61.8%

Jas

Comment by bubbleswamy
2008-10-21 14:57:50

Hey Jas, how about some bay area zip codes….

Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-21 15:43:52

Hey Jas, how about some 92263-92264 and there abouts rates?
Try Indian Wells, La Quinta, Indio!!!!
Please, purty please do the “math” for me!

 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-10-21 15:55:11


I think that DataQuick will post them (under SF Chron) tomorrow. LA Area (under LA Times) always gets released a day or two early. Anyones in particular?

Jas

Comment by jbunniii
2008-10-21 21:21:14

The county-by-county numbers for the Bay Area were posted by DataQuick today. There are some pretty substantial drops just in the past month: several counties and the Bay Area itself dropped by more than 10% in one month.

Further, those median prices include only those sales that closed in September. The stock markets have declined by 18% since then, and the employment picture looks to be worsening rapidly, with a number of layoff announcements just in the past week, not least Yahoo which is shedding 1500 jobs.

Anyway, here are the numbers (September 2008/August 2008/September 2007):

Alameda $390/$440/$556
Contra Costa $300/$330/$551
Marin $680/$675/$810
Napa $439/$454/$544
SF $675/$725/$773
San Mateo $603/$632/$760
Santa Clara $506/$556/$697
Solano $264/$270/$410
Bay Area $400/$447/$625

I’ve posted an updated set of charts for nominal and real prices (assuming 3% inflation) for each of the counties in SoCal and the Bay Area. I find it easier to grasp the progress of the correction when it’s laid out visually. Just click on my name to see the WordPress page if you’re interested.

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Comment by peter m
2008-10-21 21:40:27

“Palmdale 93550 $96 -67.2%
Palmdale 93551 $109 -50.6%
Palmdale 93552 $96 -57.0%
Palmdale 93591 $69 -72.4%

Average ALLZIP $93 -61.8%”

I would think really hard about getting a property in palmdale/lancaster even if it was a 4-3 , 4000 sq ft, 1 acre lot REO advertised for under $100,000. The outer LA basin desert burgs will become virtual ghost towns(if they’re not already) and a haven for assorted desert dregs/methheads/the detrious of LA. During a calamitous economic collapse such as we are going thru the outer empty wastes wil become no-mans land where the only law will be who packs the biggest and most armament. I would make sure i have several shotguns and assorted small arms if i was to take up homesteading in the LA desert barrens. And several dobermans.

BTW i know there are quality areas in Palmdale mostly near the base of the mountains, and my opinions apply only to the outer barren wastes basically east and north of the Boeing/ northrup/AFB plant 42.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-21 14:51:53

The other shoe dropping…

It’s too late for Shoe Pavilion. It’s closing down its chain. Thousands of employees losing their jobs. In fact sales of new shoes have fallen dramatically because many people are choosing to fix up their current shoes.”

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-21 14:54:02

p.s.

About every woman I know has 31 pairs of shoes and need never buy another (I know, heresy) pair…

Comment by Comrade lainvestorgirl
2008-10-21 15:20:50

Hey alad, can we get an update on your predictions for the dollar/gold/inflation? Why isn’t that story working when the fed is guaranteeing every account and creating credit left and right?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-10-21 18:58:40

Apartchik,

It’s all going according to plan, and we are in the rope-a-dope stage of the proceedings, much ado about nothing.

Firework show soon, I promise.

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Comment by peter m
2008-10-21 22:14:21

“It’s all going according to plan, and we are in the rope-a-dope stage of the proceedings, much ado about nothing..
Firework show soon, I promise”

If you buy gold better hold on to it as a long- term investment. In the near term Gold could go down along with all other commodities if this deflation/recession becomes really bad-1930’s depression style. Over the long term maybe 2-5 years gold should hold up even if all other assets get flattened. That assumes we don’t have a hyperinflation scenario as the fed/ CBs are determined to reflate at all costs. Then gold rockets.

Alad,
Is Apmex a reliable trustworthy source for physical gold/silver coins/bullion? I just purchased a small amt of silver from them and may buy more.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2008-10-21 15:50:38

There’s a Bass shoe outlet store here in Boise that sells really nice shoes for about $35. Not much point in repairing them at that price. Bass makes really nice shoes and boots. I went hiking in a new pair last week and hardly got footsore after an 8 mile hike.

 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-21 19:26:23

“About every woman I know has 31 pairs of shoes and need never buy another (I know, heresy) pair…”

LOL. My girlfriend put her bed up on risers. Every square inch underneath is shoeboxes. She’ll be down at Pavilion looking around whhen they have their blow-out sale…

LSD retail…
A woman who buys a “retail” $100 item for $20 doesn’t look at it as spending $20. She convinces herself she SAVED $80. (never mind you’d have to be high on LSD to believe said item could retail for $100).

DOC

 
Comment by B. Durbin
2008-10-21 21:26:18

“About every woman I know has 31 pairs of shoes and need never buy another (I know, heresy) pair…”

I’d love it if I never had to buy another pair, but I’m hard on shoes.

Of course, I don’t have 31 pairs in the closet, either. There’s maybe a dozen, over half of which I really ought to throw out since they’re too worn to be of further service.

 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-21 16:34:44

I remember getting shoes re-soled/new heels as a kid being just common sense. Now finding a cobbler is almost impossible with the cost of retail space.

Wear it out/fix it up/do without.

 
Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-21 16:36:02

Giggles here. Other shoe dropping, that’s funny.
I may have more than 31. But mostly it’s clogs, sneakers, bike shoes, sandals and slippers. I was going thru my shoes today and i still have my hip cowboy boots and hikers. Office shoes are long gone. Petting my birkenstocks right now, all four pairs.

Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:59:15

I got a new pair of Berkies yesterday. I had gone years without any, it was sick.

Comment by friar john
2008-10-21 18:45:00

Actually a little historical context regarding birkenstocks. Though not a religious company, the sandal is based upon those worn by Grown Adult Jeebus, who incidentally got a pair from that beggar woman prostitute. Turns out the prostitute didn’t need the sandals because her clients preferred her to wear high heels. The Galatians invented the high heel to help give prostitutes a more “professional” look. It was quite scandalous back in the day.

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Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 21:07:18

tee hee

 
 
Comment by SuzyK
2008-10-21 21:49:25

Gee I’m almost 52 and grew up in the BA and have never owned a pair of “Berkies”. My life is so incomplete. I should have known when my sister-in-law told me years me years ago that they changed her life….

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Comment by bubbleswamy
2008-10-21 14:55:47

‘Some of the hardest hit areas include Southern California’s Inland Empire, where the output totals and employment impacts fell nearly 50 percent from 2006 to 2007.’”

Given the major hits in some parts of Cal., why do other areas seen completely unscathed? For eg., i am not seeing any drop in percentages in places like Cupertino? It is not increasing for sure, but not coming down either, i doubt if anybody has lost any money selling house in cupertino or if there are any foreclosures…

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:07:32

The collapse hits the outlying areas first and then moves in on the central areas, ie crapertino, paly alto. There is a delay, but it will happen.

Comment by bubbleswamy
2008-10-21 15:18:22

Numbers talk…BS walks..

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 16:32:52

buy one… I don’t care.

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Comment by SuzyK
2008-10-21 22:21:22

Hey I noticed in this weeks’ SF Chronicle RE section for sales ending Oct 17th that there were negative Y-O-Y numbers for Crappertino, Mt. Spew and Shallow Alto. Did you notice in the Dataquick report for the Bay Area the only two counties with negative Y-O-Y sales volume numbers were San Mateo (-4.9)and San Francisco (-2.35)?

 
 
 
Comment by rms
2008-10-21 21:38:42

“The collapse hits the outlying areas first and then moves in on the central areas, ie crapertino, paly alto.”

Cupertino and Palo Alto are nice cities populated with civilized educated people, a far cry from Moreno Valley or Perris. We’re talking about asset deflation, not Escape from New York.

Comment by jbunniii
2008-10-21 21:41:45

I was living in SoCal during their last real estate bust. As I recall, Beverly Hills and Palos Verdes, both substantially nicer than either Crappertino or Palo Alto, dropped by over 40% by the time the dust settled. Your move.

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Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:41:39

The subprime loans reset first. The Alt-A loans are resetting now. The prime loans will reset later (I think starting next year?). In the meanwhile, some people will get wise and sell early in order to lock in their profits.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-21 15:06:55

“It’s questionable what their role will be in the future” ( mortgage brokers )

What future? They have none. Mortgage brokers never had a real purpose to begin with.

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:12:39

right, mortgage brokers have no future. RE agents will be marginallized as this activity will mostly move to the internet a-la travel agents.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 15:36:32

Disintermediation.

Just saying “no middle man needed” in fancy edumacated terms. :-D

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-21 15:47:46

Moreover it’s been my understanding that the banks will take the ball from here. That’s where “the model” is heading. Salaried employees will show you the homes they have in the bank’s inventory, salaried employees will take your mortgage application and salaried employees will handle the underwriting and closing.

Since the banks got stuck with this lit stick of dynamite handed to them by realtwhores and mortgage brokers I don’t think there’s going to be any love lost over this thing?

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Comment by DinOR
2008-10-21 16:01:48

I actually believe a travel agent ( yes even in the internet age ) provides more value than a mortgage broker.

If your plane ticket cost you double what you were expecting… you’d have ’some’ recourse. If you wound up in the entirely WRONG destination, there’d be hell to pay.

What most people didn’t understand about MB’s is that they had NO fiduciary duty to you ( the client ) AT ALL! Talk to a few frankly on the side and they’ll tell you, they were out to get ‘themselves’ the best deal! ( Ever wonder why there were so many subprime loans to begin with? ) Hell, they PAID better!

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Comment by drumminj
2008-10-21 19:17:37

I don’t dispute that mtg brokers aren’t necessarily working in the buyer’s best interest. However, I think they do play a role - they have access to a much larger source of lenders.

When I bought (in 2005 in Austin, TX), I talked to my bank (Wells Fargo). I was able to get about 1/2 point lower by going through the mtg broker. Of course I had to be clear about wanting a 30yr fixed, and had to argue about some of the fees/points, etc, but on the whole did better with the broker than had I dealt directly with a bank.

Certainly if I had dealt directly with the bank I got the loan from, and cut out the middleman, I would’ve been better off. But I think it’s highly possible that having access to a larger number of lenders can allow for a better deal for a buyer, even with the middleman involved.

 
 
Comment by az_lender
2008-10-21 16:28:44

Disintermediation. No middle man needed. So true. Az Lender just now sending $55K hard money to some escrow agency in support of some investors (!?!?) whose business plan for flipping a re-po looks plausible. If it doesn’t work, az_lender has bought a 3/2 for $55K (not so bad). I saw the house today, it’s 4 years old. Fridge missing, carpet needs cleaning, a few screens are ripped. Plenty of occupancy in the neighborhood.

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Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-21 16:38:28

I would have braved the san francisco weather to be at that protest.

 
 
Comment by Pearsey von Peepwig
2008-10-21 15:09:55

Realtors are bird brains.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 16:22:06

Please don’t insult our avian friends.

Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-10-21 18:02:02

It’s been my experience that the bigger the birdhouse is, the less it appeals to birds. Something RE agents haven’t figured out!

 
 
 
Comment by Pearsey von Peepwig
2008-10-21 15:11:55

I wonder what it’s like to swim in a mortgage pool. You probably have to worry about getting eaten by an underwater mortgage. Not safe for a fluffy little guy like me :(

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:14:50

‘fluffy’? then you should be able to float better, no?

Comment by DinOR
2008-10-21 15:56:49

The bigger worry is that you can’t pee or those little things will swim up your wee wee.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-21 22:33:42

Ya gotta avoid getting eaten by alligators…

 
 
Comment by dave
2008-10-21 15:18:55

Its getting bad, 15.1 % unemployment in my hometown- Perris, CA

Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-21 15:47:48

YIkes, Dave.

Perris- in between, Riverside and Temecula..does everyone drive to SD or OC for work? Someone said that once that Temecula was just a place to live and then work elsewhere.

Comment by dave
2008-10-21 16:16:59

Many people do, esp. the new ones. I think its crazy!

 
 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-10-21 15:48:11

We’re just in the fourth inning of a double header, buddy!

Wait till you see what’s coming down the poop-chute.

Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-21 16:42:08

Lad says tennis match, i say badminton.
How does badminton score?
Paulson is talking again in a tux!

Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-21 18:34:23

I was watching Pualson on Bloomberg too. He says, “the problem is foreclosures.”

No Pauly, the problem is bubble prices. You just know they also floated behind closed doors rewriting loan terms to 40 and 50 years!

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Comment by milkcrate
2008-10-21 19:20:28

Problem: no perp walks.

 
 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2008-10-21 15:53:26

No unemployment in Perris Island, NC. :)

Comment by combotechie
2008-10-21 17:25:33

Military recruiters are going to easily meet their quotas once this recession thingy gains momentum.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-10-21 20:16:11

They already are meeting their quotas. It was reported on the news here the other day.

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Comment by az_lender
2008-10-21 17:38:15

SC

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-10-21 15:54:17

dave,

That is bad. Really bad. I have a friend that sold a home there in Feb. of ‘06 and boy is he glad of it. He had a few 100k to live off of and spent much time in Vegas and has now settled back down in MV for the time being.

He is my (1) success story. NO ONE else I told to sell followed through on it. Most thought we were nuts. He most assuredly would have lost the home due to an illness, and he and his mother put down about 60% in 2001. It would have been a disaster.

Comment by dave
2008-10-21 16:13:36

I can attest to the fact that Perris has defiantly gone down hill, especially since I graduated from high school (’04). The city had its reputation before, but it had a nice, quant feeling to it. Now there are tons of houses and people, with few jobs (outside of low paying big-box manufacturing jobs), and few commercial outlets.

 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-10-21 19:36:21

“NO ONE else I told to sell followed through on it.”

He should thank his lucky stars to have you as his friend, and of course that he took heed to your advice. My good friend bought against my heated contrarian advice in 05′ and is now officially $230k upside down.

Secretary at our office lost her home last year (bought against my advice in 03′). She just took another job. Right before she left, she was saying her goodbyes in my office, looked at me with a forelorn face and said, “gee, I’ll bet your real glad you saved your money instead of buying.”

Yep.

DOC

 
 
Comment by rms
2008-10-21 21:41:42

“Its getting bad, 15.1 % unemployment in my hometown- Perris, CA”

And that’s on the good side of town!

 
 
Comment by Mike D
2008-10-21 15:21:25

Re posting this:

Ok Long time Lurker, and I use to post some!

Dont mean to change any subject but!

I Been watching the Huntington Beach Market for years now.
A house me and My wife looked at in 05, back then the price was $575k. Of course some fool bought it, not me found a house to rent and been renting since! Well we live around the block from this house which resently foreclosed about a month ago. Well theres another house on the same block 3 doors down, that’s been on the market for about 8-10months, of course it has been droping in price, last time I looked they wanted 490k, nice house!
Well i drive by both these houses everyday, and the Recently foreclosed house just SOLD yesterday for $614,258.00 ??????????????????
Address 18321 Lisa HB 92646

Does this sound like one of them scams or people that stupid?

Comment by desertdweller
2008-10-21 15:50:54

I can’t wait to see the research on that one MikeD.

It could be a scam or someone stupid.
They must have gold kitchen/bathroom hardware.
That gold might have closed the deal?
Yikes.

Comment by Mike D
2008-10-21 16:52:08

desertdweller

Trust me NO GOLD!!! I been in that house, I hope it is a scam!

I been In both houses on that block the $490k house Is bigger and nicer to me? Who would pay $600k plus for a foreclouser?

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:54:27

How do you know the sales price if it just sold yesterday? Doesn’t that take a month to get recorded?

 
Comment by bulwark
2008-10-21 22:14:40

Refi and credit bid by bank.

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 15:29:32

DON’T PANIC, the protests are contained.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 15:47:37

Today’s prevailing economic theory: Trickle-down stupidity

If you elect a really, really dumb President, then you will end up with a really, really dumb system.

Comment by Bronco
2008-10-21 15:49:24

its not that simple V, this system has been years in the making

 
Comment by az_lender
2008-10-21 16:34:56

I was sad last evening watching an old Charlie Rose segment wherein Robert Shiller (yes, our hero Shiller) proposed that everyone’s “livelihood” be insured — i.e., not just people whose employers are contributing to unemployment insurance. How the H does that make sense? All the day-traders, mortgage-brokers, RE agents etc. are going to be insured against unemployment? This is nuts. My point is, a system where nobody produces anything of value is the product of more intelligent brains than GWBush’s. Even though I am amused by Big V’s “trickle down” theory.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-21 16:48:07

How does one insure a “livelihood”?

Remember “The Matrix” - all those people hooked to the tubes? Their livelihood was “insured” - they were power cells - so they were fed, entertained electronically, and generally taken care of - no unemployment - their livelihood was very much “insured”.

Now all we have to do is stick a few tubes up our azz and get on with it.

 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 15:51:53

To see a life’s work, 35 percent of it, just go away because of some really stupid investments on the part of people we relied on - the banks.

Some of your own investments are starting to look a little stupid too, aren’t they Stice? Hey, I’m all for blaming the mortgage brokers, but why should I miss out on a chance to blame this guy too? “Hey, Stice: You’re a moron!”

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-21 16:13:52

Era of easy credit apparently over

http://www.thestate.com/business/story/562101.html?RSS=business

Oh the horror of having to have $1000 for a down payment, how WILL we cope !

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-10-21 16:23:29

“the California Building Industry Association, which called on lawmakers to make the housing recovery their top priority.”

Damn all lobbying interests to H**l. Short of waving a magic wand or giving us all $800K tax free to buy a home the market is toast and these fools can’t get over the fact that home building is dead business and no amount of taxpayer money is going to bring back the high prices and huge profit margins.

Comment by Ann gogh
2008-10-21 16:52:32

My girlfriend says across the street from her mom’s a young pasadena couple bought million dollar property and now rebuilding the whole thing. I just told her it’s cheaper to build a new one. How much would it cost to build a craftsman from scratch? 2800 sq ft?

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-10-21 17:07:20

Too bad the builders have to take a back seat to the banks.

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 16:49:14

My old favorite site (neighborhood navigator) stopped publishing house prices. Bums.

 
Comment by sold in 04
2008-10-21 17:02:26

went to my first job fair in twenty years last week at the universal hilton in los angeles…..over 3000 people at this event…drove to orange county from la in 40 minutes on a monday afternoon never once stepping on my brake pedal, back and forth 100 miles….no jobs no traffic….and its very early in the game….i happy i am not down to my last 100k yet………

 
Comment by CrookCounty
2008-10-21 18:08:44

I smell massive fraud in those alleged increased RE sales percentages from the databases, not just specuvestor knife catching flippers. They wouldn’t be including banks buying their own properties back after phony minimum bid auctions, now would they? Churn ‘em and burn ‘em. Back to you Ivan Boesky.

Last sale 640K.
List for 575K.
Minimum allowable bid 570K.
Bank “buys” for 610K.
Ring up a RE “sale”!

These base percentage numbers are crap. Who are the people actually buying and actually inhabiting those numbers? This smells like using one credit card to pay off another credit card, selling one house from Holding Company A to Holding Company B. If my suspicions are correct, there is less and less traction as prices come down, less down payments available, less loans available for any real legitimate home occupier buyers.

Comment by Big V
2008-10-21 21:15:18

Some of the banks will only sell their own foreclosures to people who agree to obtain financing through same said bank. I suppose the bank is happy to overlend on their own properties. It keeps the comps up and allows them to rope another tenant, I mean buyer for a few years.

 
Comment by lanotary
2008-10-21 22:26:49

There are buyers out there, believe it or not. I am busy again. It is a mix too, some first time buyers without a pot to piss in getting fha financing by pulling the 3% down out of 401k’s, but I’ve also had several signings for homebuyers with 20% downpayments. The loan officer I do the bulk of my work with is all of the sudden SUPER busy, she’s got 25+ deals going right now! I don’t however think it’ll last. I think people are buying into the hype that prices dropped so low they can’t go much further. Once the decline continues, I think people are going to get fearful and be afraid to buy. I don’t have the balls to ask any of the buyers what the heck they are thinking. But my L.O. could be super busy right now because she is a straight shooter. She sold her own townhome in OC in 2005 and will buy again in a couple of years. She doesn’t rip people off and is very frank with them about the terms of their loan…no surprises at signing. So it is highly possible she is an exception and others aren’t nearly as busy… I don’t know.

I keep reading about credit tightening for mortgages, but it isn’t nearly tight enough.

 
 
Comment by friar john
2008-10-21 18:24:16

“Mike Detwiler of Denver, whose company writes software for mortgage bankers, said he agreed that the $700 million bailout was inappropriate.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Debtwielder, I mean Detwiler, must now know what it means for a tree to fall in the forest…If someone writes software for mortgage bankers and they completely ignore it, is it still software?

Great stuff from an article back in 2003…

WHO: Mike Detwiler, president of Denver-based 3t Systems, can
provide expert commentary on the vulnerabilities lenders are
seeing with regard to current loan origination systems (LOS)
and the capabilities that are possible with 21st century
technology that are making the 20th century LOS obsolete.

LOS: Loan Origination Systems
LOSS: Loan Origination Severely Sucks

 
Comment by Nathan
2008-10-21 19:07:04

House Prices - when does it make sense to buy?
By: Tom Vanderwell
Straight Talk About Mortgages and Real Estate

Fitch: Housing Prices Have 10% to Go Before Stabilizing

“Fitch’s analysis shows that the 29% rise in prices realized between 2004 and 2006 … has been reversed. With prices returning to early 2004 levels, Fitch believes that most of the additional 10% decline … will occur over the next eighteen months. Fitch then expects declines thereafter to moderate

via Calculated Risk: Fitch: House Prices to Fall 10% over next 18 months

Okay, if that in deed is accurate, then I’m going to “tweak” my 7 year plan a bit. Let me lay out my thoughts:

1. It’s going to take approximately 7% to sell the house (6% brokers fees plus other assorted costs).

2. If you buy a house today and the house price drops 10% in the next 18 months.

3. And then things are flat for 2 years before we start seeing 2 to 3% per year appreciation.

Then that means that you’d be looking at approximately 8 to 10 years from now until when you’d “break even.”

So, from that standpoint, I’d recommend that you not buy a new house unless you are planning on it as an 8 to 10 year plan.

Now to throw another item in the mix…..

If you wait 1 year and can buy a house for cheaper but rates go up 1%, do you win or do you lose?

The math says that a 10% drop in prices vs. a 1% jump in interest rates works out to be pretty much a ‘break even’ in terms of carrying costs. However the equity build up by buying now is greater than it is by waiting a year. (Approximately $4,000 over the 10 year time frame.)

So is now a good time to buy a house? Under the right circumstances and with the right financial analysis, it could be.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-10-21 23:21:51

Don’t buy until everyone says real estate is the worst investment.

 
 
Comment by Donna Parks
2008-10-22 05:57:47

LOL. Anyone see the add for the book “subrime factor” on the blog.

MSM really is watching!

 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-10-25 13:48:17

We have to be careful of the feelings of others at times like these.

On the one hand the last year has been a major triumph, a financial fireworks victory display, for the followers of Marx and Engels.

Remember it was Marx who stated the inherent greed and exploitation in capitalism would eventually destroy it.

Lenin, Stalin, and of course Trotsky postulated,
the dictators did what they could when they could; Soviet Russia since 1917 has seen wrenching turmoil, so is Marxism BETTER?

oh yeah, that’s why the theme on change

Are we close to ObamaNation yet?

 
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