November 3, 2008

It’s Still A Fire Sale In California

The Union Tribune reports from California. “If the past is prologue, today’s three-year housing slump should have one year to go before prices flatten out and begin to move up smartly once again. This time, the region is almost three years into a slump that followed a market peak at $515,000 in late 2005, according to MDA DataQuick. But the 2000s aren’t behaving like the 1990s – or the 1970s, ’50s or ’20s, for that matter. The present cycle has seen prices fall much farther, and faster, with the median down so far by 32.4 percent to $348,000 for the third quarter of 2008, according to MDA DataQuick.”

“‘“It’s not so much of a cycle but a collapse,’ said Kelly Cunningham, chief economist at the San Diego Institute for Policy Research. ‘We’re coming back to reality, probably where prices should have been if things had gone along at a more normal pace.’”

“In the current cycle, the community formerly known as East San Diego rose to a new peak of $400,000 in the third quarter of 2003 and has since fallen back to $190,000, a 52.5 percent turnaround.”

“‘It’s just going to get really bad before it gets better,” said agent Herlinda Ryan in La Mesa, who lives in Eastlake. ‘They’re going to keep going down – you’re going to have to practically give them away.’”

The San Diego Metropolitan. “Local banks lent heavily to residential builders and the commercial real estate industry, which now is experiencing high vacancy rates. ‘Most of the banks in the region have a significant concentration of construction and commercial real estate loans in their portfolios and a significant percentage of these loans are not performing as anticipated due to the downturn in the economy,’ says Dan Yates, president of Regents Bank. ‘Particularly problematic are loans to developers of single-family residences.’”

“‘Anything that is real estate related has to be scrutinized very carefully,’ says Ron Carlson, interim president of 1st Pacific Bank of California. ‘You probably wouldn’t make a land loan today, because how are you going to get paid?’”

“San Diego’s economy was slowed by the 1990s decline of home prices and post-Cold War departure of some defense businesses. This, Carlson says, is worse. ‘That downturn was caused primarily by an oversupply of housing. There was more product than demand. This goes beyond that. This is a more severe recession.’”

“Mike Perry, (president of) San Diego Trust Bank, says his bank saw the economy beginning to turn sour in April 2007. Four months earlier it had made the decision to exit lending markets that were vulnerable to a housing contraction. When underwriting new loans, he says the bank considers the ‘new set of dynamics facing the economy. You have to evaluate credit under a new set of circumstances. You have to analyze the environment under which you are making the loan and understand what can happen if this downturn is contracted or deepens considerably. Every lender has learned that cash flow is king.’”

The Ventira County Star. “To get an idea of how the American credit crisis has affected a community, visit a pawnbroker such as Jenifer Russell, manager of the Pawn Shop of Ventura. Russell began noticing new faces coming through the door near the end of 2007. One of the first was a man who came in with his fiancée. He explained that he’d been in the mortgage business but had fallen on hard times. They were on the verge of losing their house. He couldn’t put his mortgage payment on his credit card, so he used it to buy new goods that he wanted to use as collateral for a loan.”

“Russell tried to talk him out of it. ‘He was telling me about this,” she said, ‘and I was like, that’s not a good idea because you’re double-whammying yourself, because if you charge all this stuff, not only do you have to pay interest with us, you have to pay interest on that credit card.’”

“But there was no other way he could save his house, she said, so he took the loan. ‘He defaulted on almost everything and we haven’t seen him since,’ she said, adding that she doesn’t know if he saved his home.”

The Tribune. “San Luis Obispo County is seeing real estate values play out much as they are at the state level. The sharp drop-off in the local housing market can be seen in tax roll statistics put together by county Assessor Tom Bordonaro, and in a report from county Auditor-Controller Gere Sibbach. Bordonaro’s office has lowered the assessed valuations this year on 12,700 homes by a total of $730 million to reflect the changing values.”

“Jim Liptak, a broker-associate with Country Real Estate in Paso and 2009 president of the California Association of Realtors, is one who believes Paso Robles was insulated from dropping more in value because it has so much more commercial development than Atascadero. ‘But we also had a tremendous amount of housing growth in Paso Robles,’ he said. ‘That is also why it has more foreclosures than any other city in the county,’ he said.”

“Vacancies for homes are stable, although in the North County, more would-be sellers waiting for a rebound are creating a surge in properties for rent, said Curtis Mortenson, owner of Turn-Key Property Management in Paso Robles. ‘The lists are getting so high because the huge inventory from the sales market is entering the rental market,’ said Mortenson, who has four vacancies now out of 20 properties.”

“Rental prices are dropping somewhat in the North County as a result, he said, noting that they’ve already declined about 10 percent from a year ago. ‘If there are 100 houses out there for rent, and there are 60 people looking for rentals, we all have to compete with price,’ he said.”

“Jack Franklin, owner and broker of Liberty Management in Morro Bay, said…rents have also dipped some in coastal towns, making it attractive for many people. One recent client, he said, turned to the rental market after a foreclosure. ”

“‘He walked away from the house and rented a home for $1,700 a month,’ he said. ‘His mortgage payment had been around $4,000 a month; it was no longer affordable.’”

The Monterey County Herald. “Of the 940 homes that sold during last quarter, 76 percent were foreclosures sales, according to data compiled from MLSListings, Inc. Pending transactions range from an $89,499 single-family home listing in East Salinas to a $599,000 property along Monterey-Salinas Highway, Haney said, and 28 of those 84 pending sales were listings under $200,000.”

“‘If the prices go low enough, people will buy, and why wouldn’t they?’ said Sandy Haney, CEO of the Monterey County Association of Realtors. ‘It was always the adage: Once a buyer can buy cheaper than he can rent, the decision’s been made — providing they qualify for the loan.’”

“For now, inventory remains high — 2,747 properties were listed for sale at the end of September, up from 2,480 in January — and no small portion of those are foreclosures. ‘Until that inventory is reduced, that’s when we’ll start seeing what the market’s really made of,’ said Haney. ‘Right now, it’s still a fire sale.’”

The Santa Cruz Sentinel. “For 17 years, mortgage broker Ty Ebright made a living by matching lenders with longtime homeowners who encountered financial difficulties and couldn’t get bank loans. Now Ebright, and his company, Monterey Bay Resources, are caught in the economic tailspin that grips the nation. His loan volume is down 90 percent compared to last year.”

“To survive the financial distress, Ebright is recommending his lenders cut interest rates on existing loans from 11-12 percent to 8 percent. If the value of the property is less than the amount of the loan, he proposes a rate of 1 percent. He recommends 1 percent interest for a home in Fresno appraised at $262,000 when the homeowner borrowed $170,000. Today, the home is appraised at $150,000.”

“Already he’s seen borrowers give up and walk away from their homes. ‘We’ve taken back 37 houses in the past 12 months,’ he said. ‘In the previous 15 years, it was six.’”

“Ebright said the system no longer works because banks have stopped loaning money to all but the most credit-worthy borrowers. ‘There is no way any of the borrowers in our loan portfolio can refinance their property,’ he said, noting that even people with a credit score of 800 have been turned away.”

“When a property in foreclosure is sold on the courthouse steps in California, 97 percent of the time, it goes back to the lender, according to ForeclosureRadar. ‘There are no bidders,’ Ebright said. ‘Investors know that if they wait until the property has reverted to the lender, they can usually purchase the reverted property for much less than the initial bid.’”

The Record Searchlight. “Burned investors across the nation compare the Redding-based Asset Real Estate & Investment Co. (AREI) collapse to Enron and other infamous financial scandals. Lynn Raadik, 75, of Santa Cruz said she and her 80-year-old husband, Karl, lost $1 million when their investments in three AREI-controlled senior living centers evaporated last year. Doug Deskin, 59, of Sonoma County lost $500,000 in retirement income to soured investments through AREI in two East Coast senior living centers.”

“From May 1999 through April 2007, AREI made 56 offerings totaling $259.4 million. The offerings included 40 properties and one corporate note, documents show. Among the properties offered are the now-shuttered Mountain House golf course near Tracy, a Brentwood business park, two Redding senior care homes and AREI’s former headquarters on Redcliff Drive above the Sacramento River.”

“‘We don’t have a lot of hope in getting our money back,’ said Lynn Raadik. ‘I’ve finally gotten to the point where I can accept it for what it is, because otherwise, it can kill you.’”

The Eureka Reporter. “‘We’ll have to rewrite the textbooks,’ economics professor Erick Eschker said Wednesday. The problem: Nobody knows what to write about the lessons to be learned from the October upheaval of the global economy.”

“Professor emeritus Ted Ruprecht believes renters may get a break in the years ahead as foreclosures increase supply the same way they did when he lived through the Great Depression. ‘We rented houses foreclosed by banks, lived in them until they sold and then moved to another,’ he said.”

“Eschker predicts home values will decline at least another 10 percent as rents continue to be more favorable than house payments. ‘In California and nationally, they’re predicting 20 to 30 percent,’ he said. ‘Ours still have a ways to go.’”

“That’s bad news for homeowners who treated residences like credit cards. ‘We consumed based on growing equity,’ said John Dalby, president of Redwood Capital Bank. ‘Home equity was the fastest, easiest, cheapest way for expansion and capital to start a business. That is gone.’”

The Recordnet. “September existing home sales climbed to the highest monthly total so far this year in San Joaquin County while the median sales price continued to fall, this time to under $200,000, according to figures from the latest Grupe Real Estate-TrendGraphix monthly sales report, based on MLS data.”

“‘We’ve had more transactions through September this year than I’ve had in the prior 10 years,’ said Jerry Abbott, president of Grupe Real Estate, Stockton. ‘We’re having a boom year, but the prices are 60 percent or less what they were at the peak of the market’ several years ago.”

The Sierra Sun. “While the Truckee branch of Intero Real Estate was merged with Keller Williams Friday, the second such transaction this week, it did provide relief for Intero owner Anita Noble. With local real estate volatility in mind, Noble decided to sell off her lease. ‘I woke up with the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders,’ said Noble.”

“Statewide home financing also saw changes this week, according to the Associate Press. California temporarily suspended two of its long-term loan programs and removed two other down payment assistance programs. ‘The banks are getting all this money and we don’t have access to anything,’ said Ken Giebel, spokesman for the California Housing Finance Agency.”

The Daily Breeze. “Donald Trump’s name may grace a proposed condo resort on the Baja California coast, but the New York developer’s cachet may be worthless to Californians who made down payments for condos at what looks like another Mexican real estate scheme gone bust, it was reported Saturday. A construction loan of $150 million from a German bank to the Trump Ocean Resort in Baja California fell through in late summer, and a new lender has not been found, a shareholder told The San Diego Union-Tribune.”

“‘It kind of feels like we have been set up,’ said Hamed Hoshyarsar, who raised $165,000 in cash with his brother and two friends as a down payment for a vacation unit to share. ‘With a name like Trump, we figured it was good,’ the Los Angeles-based accountant told the newspaper.”




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128 Comments »

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 11:09:38

“To get an idea of how the American credit crisis has affected a community, visit a pawnbroker such as Jenifer Russell, manager of the Pawn Shop of Ventura. Russell began noticing new faces coming through the door near the end of 2007. One of the first was a man who came in with his fiancée. He explained that he’d been in the mortgage business but had fallen on hard times. They were on the verge of losing their house. He couldn’t put his mortgage payment on his credit card, so he used it to buy new goods that he wanted to use as collateral for a loan.”

“Russell tried to talk him out of it. ‘He was telling me about this,” she said, ‘and I was like, that’s not a good idea because you’re double-whammying yourself, because if you charge all this stuff, not only do you have to pay interest with us, you have to pay interest on that credit card.’”

“But there was no other way he could save his house, she said, so he took the loan. ‘He defaulted on almost everything and we haven’t seen him since,’ she said, adding that she doesn’t know if he saved his home.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I know a guy that has a pawn shop right on Virginia St. in Reno, and this sort of behavior is atypical of a mad gambler.

He told me he occasionally gets people that come in and buy a Rolex from him on a credit-card, and then go to another pawn shop down the street and hock it for gambling cash, @ 50 Cents on the $, and vice versa, as he buys Rolexes recently purchased elsewhere, as well.

Face it America, we’ve turned into a nation of compulsive gamblers, much to our detriment…

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-11-03 11:19:24

“I know a guy that has a pawn shop right on Virginia St. in Reno, and this sort of behavior is atypical of a mad gambler.”

Did you mean to say “typical”? A typical gambler is the opposite of an atypical gambler.
Something is amiss. Or is that a lad?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 11:25:39

I know my mad gamblers bettor than most, as I was one once.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 12:47:59

alad,

Good for you. I think you’ll agree that the first step toward recovery is admitting that there’s a problem. Where I see a difference though is that a gambler always has at least a long shot chance of breaking even. Homedebtors ( that are realtors or MB’s ) have NONE!

Talk about the law of diminishing returns!?

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 12:53:30

I hit bottom about 20 years ago in Beatty, Nv.

Lost 17 out of 18 hands of blackjack @ a casino there, and went back to Death Valley and walked up on top of the sand dunes near Stovepipe Wells and decided my gambling career was over.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 13:23:49

alad,

Glad to hear you lived to talk about it. I play in a band on weekends and “working” in a place like that will change your view on say… alcohol consumption. You get to see all kinds from social drinking to power drinking to just plain self-loathing.

I will say though, that I’ve always liked Beatty, NV! I make a point to stop there if only for lunch when we drive through. Long walk back to Vegas though?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 13:37:47

The price of tuition to the school of hard knocks is always dear and the lessons learned last a lifetime.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-03 14:28:20

“I know my mad gamblers bettor than most, as I was one once.”

“All in” on gold doesn’t count? ;)

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 15:06:51

Combo is “all-in” on cash. Is that a gamble?

 
Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-11-03 15:46:10

Lad, maybe you and combotechie should meet in person, have a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup Moment, realize your respective investment theses are both half right — and then get married. [After 8 dies the spectacular death it deserves.]

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 16:54:28

I think of our economic relationship more along these terms…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_vs._Spy

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-11-03 19:14:55

Do I get to be the guy?

 
Comment by SV guy
2008-11-04 04:58:45

I just want to know who’s pitching :)

Mike

 
 
Comment by Joe Winders
2008-11-03 14:52:46

Nice play on words.

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Comment by Houstonstan
2008-11-03 15:39:18

I’ll bet you $10 you weren’t.

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Comment by hd74man
2008-11-03 13:09:36

RE: Face it America, we’ve turned into a nation of compulsive gamblers, much to our detriment…

I’ve never bought a lotto ticket in my life, but those Bud Grant era Minnesota Vikings Super Bowl teams sure cost me a bundle.

Comment by sf jack
2008-11-03 18:50:43

True - but that’s probably not nearly as much as the Marv Levy Bills could have cost aladinsane.

 
Comment by pismoclam
2008-11-03 20:43:19

You should have bet the don’t come line in the Ram’s playoff games vs the Vikes. hehehehehehe

 
 
Comment by Mole Man
2008-11-03 18:09:21

Debt and mental illness are strongly correlated. The compulsive gamblers you are facing are a specific, troubled slice of the population. They cannot be used as examples of national trends, and even at their collective worst they cannot bring us all down.

Comment by implosion
2008-11-04 00:17:54

Sounds like there are a f*cking lot of mentally ill people in this country.

 
 
 
Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-03 11:18:51

Hey Lad, you may know my cousin who has a coin shop at the mgm in reno. He loves gold too.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 13:20:56

D.C., eh?

Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-03 18:31:34

Eh, yeah D. C. thats my cuz.
Ask him anything you want to know but were afraid to ask!

 
Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-03 18:57:59

Laddie, did you ever meet my infamous aunt jane?
She’s been known to haunt the bars at the MGM.
She bought D’s house in carson city and it has a waterwell!

 
 
 
Comment by patient renter
2008-11-03 11:20:47

the system no longer works because banks have stopped loaning money to all but the most credit-worthy borrowers

Sounds like the system is just now starting to work.

Comment by HARM
2008-11-03 13:00:00

Amen. I love the (inevitably unchallenged) assumption behind all the sob stories about how things over the past 7 years was “normal”.

 
Comment by oxide
2008-11-03 15:36:52

even people with a credit score of 800 have been turned away.

What, you can no longer borrow millions just because you make the $20 minimum payments on your credit cards? What, are they actually looking at down-payments and incomes now?

Looks like the sea change is changing back.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 16:03:42

oxide,

…excellent point. Many people were able to “re-fi their way into a an ever better FICO” for years!

Well, let’s see..? “I’ll” pay off that for you and “I’ll” pay off this little account here and “I’ll”… ( mortgage con men were really good at acting as if it was “their” doing to make your bills go poof!

Oh look! “I’ve” made your debt-to-income ____ so now you can go out and buy and even bigger house..! Besides, shouldn’t everyone that’s not currently in jail and makes their $20 payments ‘reasonably’ on time be entitled to live in a $600,000 home?

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:28:27

How can this be true when sales are up, up, up in the hardest-hit areas of the hardest-hit states? They can’t all be cash buyers. I think plenty of lending is going on.

Comment by oc-ed
2008-11-04 06:55:12

May be the O in REO is lending to get the E off the books.

 
 
 
Comment by Stan_the_man_at_6500_ft
2008-11-03 11:24:30

But I thought everyone wanted to live in California?

Comment by az_lender
2008-11-03 15:59:57

We do sort of want to, but there’s only so much taxation, depreciation, and other abuse that we would put up with. So we don’t live there just now. Hope to see some Calif HBBers after 10 December.

 
 
Comment by patient renter
2008-11-03 11:25:15

These Yes on 8 people are taking over the world! I can’t wait till the election is over.

Comment by JohnF
2008-11-03 13:21:41

I am stunned by the number of people holding “Yes on 8″ signs (every day for the last two weeks) and the mass mailings and even web ads. The ground game for this initiative is stunning - like nothing I have ever seen before. Usually all you see for CA propositions is TV ads, pretty easy to implement. What you are seeing for the “Yes on 8″ campaign is infinitely harder to pull off.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:31:16

I know. I was just complaining to a work friend over it. They won’t get out of my face. They’re control freaks and nuts.

BTW,
My duck wore his tuxedo this Halloween.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2008-11-04 01:15:06

The Mormon church, home of the one dude, one dame fambly, is funding the Pro 8 cabal. It’s turning into a CF in my ‘hood.

 
 
Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-03 11:26:54

“Every lender has learned that cash flow is king.’”

They better learn that cash flow can be queen too.
Oh I forgot it takes a double income to buy a home in california. Crap, i missed the husband boat and the homeowner boat. Well hell.
When will it be time to buy in san diego coastal?

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:35:28

“I missed the husband boat”

And the laundry on the floor boat, and the dirty dishes in the living room boat, and the toothpaste on the mirror boat …

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-11-03 11:42:22

“‘It’s just going to get really bad before it gets better,” said agent Herlinda Ryan in La Mesa, who lives in Eastlake. ‘They’re going to keep going down – you’re going to have to practically give them away.’”

No, no, no… Any FB worth their salt will still tell you, “I’m not going to ‘give’ my house away”.

Comment by HARM
2008-11-03 12:56:39

ah… but you missed the best part (prev. paragraph):

“In the current cycle, the community formerly known as East San Diego rose to a new peak of $400,000 in the third quarter of 2003 and has since fallen back to $190,000, a 52.5 percent turnaround.”

$190 grand is this idiot’s idea of “giving away” used houses. There are some residents of Michigan and Ohio that might have a different take on what that term means.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-11-03 14:14:39

LOL! As if 190K were chicken feed! Its still out of reach for most San Diegans, especially now that they will have to EARN their income.

 
Comment by patient renter
2008-11-03 15:14:07

There are some residents of Michigan and Ohio that might have a different take on what that term means.

Hahaha. Indeed.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 11:44:01

“Already he’s seen borrowers give up and walk away from their homes. ‘We’ve taken back 37 houses in the past 12 months,’ he said. ‘In the previous 15 years, it was six.’”
===================================================

What more does one need to know about the state* of the Golden State?

* This is prime coastal real estate, not Manteca.

 
Comment by Curt
2008-11-03 11:50:33

“It’s not so much of a cycle but a collapse,’ said Kelly Cunningham, chief economist at the San Diego Institute for Policy Research. ‘We’re coming back to reality, probably where prices should have been if things had gone along at a more normal pace.’

Translation: Yes, there was a bubble!

Comment by az_lender
2008-11-03 16:03:14

Yes, and their prediction that the “slump” has only one more year to go before “moving up smartly” is such hogwash. For one thing, they weren’t even acknowledging a “slump” three years ago or even two years ago. Just barely acknowledging it one year ago. And furthermore, we all know what Ivy Zellman’s chart shows about 2010-2011.

Comment by James
2008-11-03 18:14:01

There have been a lot of updates to those numbers. Ivy’s original chart was re-adjusted for the Neg Am loans to recast earlier than adjust. The peak is in 09 now though it still spread over several years.

Not to mention so much damage has been done. Forclosures/bad loans will still be occuring for many years.

 
 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-11-03 11:56:39

“‘With a name like Trump, we figured it was good,’ the Los Angeles-based accountant told the newspaper.””

What was this guy smoking? Anything with Trump’s name on it is highly suspect at best. I guess he talks to newspapers but doesn’t read them.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-03 12:01:57

Am I the only one who thinks of the name “Trump” rhyming with the word “dump”?

Comment by ProperBostonian
2008-11-03 13:48:17

Dump is right! A few years back I attended an educational conference that was held (for reasons unknown) in Atlantic City. We had no choice as to hotel and I was booked at one of the Trumps. They wouldn’t accept cash for payment. In addition to paying in full, I had to leave a cash deposit. The room was carpeted in 60s shag that was so dirty when I took my shoes off, my feet stuck to the carpet. A window that covered one side of the room had a crack all the way through it, which they fixed by taping with masking tape. If I owned something that second-rate, I would want to keep it a secret; but not Trump–the main decoration was a large framed picture of The Donald on the coffee table.

Comment by potential buyer
2008-11-03 15:21:09

There’s a perception that more people will sign up for conferences if they are held in gambling towns. After all, you have to have somewhere to let off steam after sitting through an incredibly boring seminar………Yeah Vegas!

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Comment by az_lender
2008-11-03 16:04:19

Chump! Slump! Rump!

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-03 17:19:23

And hump!, as in find a chump to hump the Trump in his grimy rump.

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-11-03 12:31:16

I remember reading about this project right here on this blog two years ago, where it received the derisive reception it deserved. I believe Mr. Hoshyarsar may have been quoted then too. Sounds like the planned Mexican resort will be going the way of Trump Tower Tampa, which now exists only for purposes of civil litigation. At least the head-high weeds at the site finally were trimmed.

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-11-03 12:37:25

With a name like 101 dead Nuns and Babies you just KNOW it has to be good !

Comment by Jim A.
2008-11-03 13:27:44

…Mangled baby ducks.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:40:55

stop talking.

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Comment by Rintoul
2008-11-03 13:00:48

Chalk that one up to experience. Or, in this guy’s case, probably not.

 
Comment by frankie
2008-11-03 14:31:55

Donald Trump has said he is “greatly honoured” his £1bn golf resort plan in Aberdeenshire has been approved, but opponents expressed disappointment.

US tycoon Mr Trump’s plan to build two golf courses, as well as hundreds of homes, at Menie has caused business and environmental division for two years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7700074.stm

Comment is superfluous.

 
Comment by ozajh
2008-11-03 23:51:22

I play (mildly competitive) duplicate bridge.

NoTrump contracts are tops. :D

 
Comment by SuperTimmy
2008-11-04 21:03:49

Amen on this one. When I think of Trump I think of a this big turd I had the other day. The kind that looks at best average if you put a suit on it, but still smells terrible.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 11:59:39

“While the Truckee branch of Intero Real Estate was merged with Keller Williams Friday, the second such transaction this week, it did provide relief for Intero owner Anita Noble. With local real estate volatility in mind, Noble decided to sell off her lease. ‘I woke up with the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders,’ said Noble.”

Shrug Happens…

 
Comment by Steve W
2008-11-03 11:59:59

So who the heck is buying all the houses in Stockton?

Specuvestors (again)?

People who are underwater on their current house and they’re buying low before they get foreclosed on?

Illegal Immigrants from Iceland?

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 12:34:38

Steve W,

I’m not saying that *isn’t happening but I view that as more of an East Coast event. Homedebtors in MA, MD, FL etc. were probably able to engage in one last fling of buying a nicer, newer, bigger home ( for less ) while their current home was still listed For Sale.

By the time things began to correct out here, the jig was up and lenders got hip. You’d have to have sterling credit to pull that off today.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:44:22

They’re knife catchers. Knife catchers who are having very little trouble obtaining a loan, for that matter. So why the bailout? That’s what I want to know.

 
 
Comment by mikey
2008-11-03 12:21:19

The Union Tribune reports from California. “If the past is prologue, today’s three-year housing slump should have one year to go before prices flatten out and begin to move up smartly once again

Yeah right.

If the past is the prologue, the dinosaurs in California have dodged the last meteor and they must be ready to move up smartly once more too :)

Comment by SDGreg
2008-11-03 12:43:32

“But the 2000s aren’t behaving like the 1990s – or the 1970s, ’50s or ’20s, for that matter. The present cycle has seen prices fall much farther, and faster, with the median down so far by 32.4 percent to $348,000 for the third quarter of 2008, according to MDA DataQuick.”

Prices have fallen faster than even in the GD. There’s no way prices will be “moving up smartly” after a year. In a year, we may still be in a severe recession. Prices still are above those supported by local incomes, much less recessionary incomes. How do you get typical post-war, post-recession price increases without first resolving the existing massive debt overhang?

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 12:53:16

SD Greg,

And that’s the Fed’s big problem now isn’t it? Especially since we used credit get out of the LAST jam we didn’t have the stomach for?

One good thing I *can say about the Dot.Bomb implosion is that it only affected those with a direct involvement ( employees, shareholders, day-traders etc. ) At least they didn’t drag the rest of the country/globe down w/ them?

Comment by SDGreg
2008-11-03 13:24:01

At least during the dot com era we developed new capabilities, even if we created too much capacity and created some things that were, at least not yet, economically viable. How much of the orgy of spending a few years ago was for well-built, well-located, energy-efficient housing? What did we really get for all of this new debt?

Most of the efforts so far seem to be aimed at preventing a financial collapse, mere triage of a hemorrahging patient. The debt still needs to addressed before any meaningful recovery can occur.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-03 13:52:47

SDGreg,

Precisely, I’m going out on a limb here and saying precious freaking little sensible building took place. In fact, it must have been enormously frustrating for designers and architects that place a focus on efficient structures?

Some time back everyone posted their favorite alternative designer and the list was impressive! A lot of creativity ( and much of it on a shoestring? ) I think it’s how I got introduced to “straw bale” homes. Well, when the market was all “rock n’ roll” there’s just no room for rational building.

Is it in any… way possible that disassembled McMansions may have more value than a completed home/subdivision?

 
 
Comment by bluto
2008-11-03 14:47:00

Only because banks had a huge new profit source in home lending. :)

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Comment by potential buyer
2008-11-03 15:24:15

Recessionary incomes is correct. In my company, our monthly medical contribution just doubled.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 17:49:23

My insurance company is having us pay a percentage of our medical costs. I think medical costs would go down if everyone had to pay their own bills, so my company is moving in the right direction. Just right at the precise moment when the private market begins to solve it’s own problems, WHAM, that’s when the government starts to talk about getting involved.

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Comment by sf jack
2008-11-03 19:03:09

This reminds me that 10 years ago I was reading Regina Hertzlinger’s “Market Driven Healthcare”. I believe she was a Harvard Business School professor.

She bascially laid out the case for individuals deciding how much to spend on their health and health insurance, rather than the payors/middlemen, making an analogy with auto insurance (if I recall), and she “promised” a marked improvement on the then status quo.

I think one of her main points was that consumers would demand more transparency and efficiency with regard to to best practices, finding the top MD’s and hospitals, etc.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2008-11-04 09:30:09

One of my professors at school was a former FDA chief. One of the most important lessons I learned from my class on the economics of health and medical care is that “if you don’t pay for something, you tend to overconsume it.” Duh, so simple, yet so overlooked–especially when people think about healthcare (people prefer to think of it as “non-discretionary”, I think of it as partially non-discretionary, but many aspects are completely discretionary).

I don’t know about you, but I’ve experienced this firsthand. Allow the doctors to conduct an advanced (and most likely unnecessary test) because insurance pays for it, where if you were paying, you would say no…

This applies to healthcare, and over the past 5 years it also applied to EVERYTHING ELSE, since borrowing money was perceived as “free money”, so people overconsumed EVERYTHING.

 
Comment by gab
2008-11-05 17:09:33

“Allow the doctors to conduct an advanced (and most likely unnecessary test) because insurance pays for it, where if you were paying, you would say no…”

And how is it that you would know it was “unnecessary?” Are you a doctor?

That’s the problem with healthcare - you’re not an expert. And you or a loved one is sick - sometimes really sick. And you want to get better, so you’re essentially at the mercy of the medical establishment.

You can have all the FDA chiefs and Harvard b school professors in the world talking about “market driven solutions,” but when you’ve got brain cancer or a heart attack or some other really serious crap, you just want to get treated and get better. You’re not gonna sit around and decide if a test is “unnecessary” or not.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-11-03 12:27:30

“He couldn’t put his mortgage payment on his credit card, so he used it to buy new goods that he wanted to use as collateral for a loan.”

This might possibly be the most stupid thing I’ve seen here so far to try and make a damn mortgage payment.

Comment by DennisN
2008-11-03 13:13:57

He would have done better to have taken a cash advance. Why in heck didn’t he?

Comment by michael
2008-11-03 13:43:34

i don’t know whats dumber…actualy doing what he did or informing the other party of his intentions.

 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-11-03 15:25:27

Because he’d already done that and reached his max.

 
 
Comment by Leighsong
2008-11-03 19:53:04

“People do come in very upset, sometimes in tears,” Russell said. “They are hesitating to give up sentimental items, but really feel they have no choice. We try hard to keep it clean and bright and a place that’s pleasant. People who have sentimental items, they’re always nervous once it crosses the counter and goes into someone else’s hands. And we do have people who are upset just because they’re here.”

One thing Russell sees often is people who believe an item is worth something on the market when it’s really worthless.

——–

From the pawnbroker article above. Lawd, I read the host post! (Ben, l love the excerpts).

——-

How can pawn brokers stay in business?

Another bubble popping?

I recognise pawns are a different sort.

This will end well–

Leigh

Comment by Leighsong
2008-11-03 20:14:17

OOOOOOOO Kay.

I do not think this will end well for pawn brokers.

Why?

Capital.

At some point, they are also in a bubble;

But for gold.

Leigh

 
 
 
Comment by CrookCounty
2008-11-03 12:40:38

“When a property in foreclosure is sold on the courthouse steps in California, 97 percent of the time, it goes back to the lender, according to ForeclosureRadar. ‘There are no bidders,’ Ebright said. ‘Investors know that if they wait until the property has reverted to the lender, they can usually purchase the reverted property for much less than the initial bid.’”

Haha I called it. The “sales” numbers are FRAUD. It’s counted as a sale whether a real buyer who will actually live their buys, whether a specuvestor flipper buys it, or whether it goes back to the bank.

HBB Alert! Those “sales” numbers are far worse than they appear. 97% of even those foreclosure sales, supposedly the only thing selling, aren’t even real sales. This means liquidity is much lower than people realize, and RE agents and their crony phony numbers are committing abuses far worse than possibly all the stock manipulation scams of the last century, combined.

Those seven figure McMansions might as well have the liquidity of yachts (hey McLandYacht), along with the taxation “docking fees”. Such behemoths should have names just like boats. I got my boat name ready: “Finda ‘Bout 2″.

Comment by michael
2008-11-03 13:13:13

knock…knock…knock…

who’s there?

Land Yacht…

who?

Land Yacht…

 
Comment by JohnF
2008-11-03 13:38:33

It’s even worse than that. I have read stories that lenders are actually bidding 25-35% below the actual loan balance to see if they can get any other bids.

For example: Loan balance is $300,000, normally the lender bids $300,000, no one else bids and it goes back to the lender. Now the lenders are bidding $200,000 or $250,000 to see if they can get a sucker to bid a dollar higher and they don’t have to add the property to the mountain of REO they already have. They are willing to take the 25-30% haircut up front knowing that they will lose a lot more if they have to re-sell it after the foreclosure auction.

They haven’t had much luck with this strategy either….

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-03 13:48:24

“Of the 940 homes that sold during last quarter, 76 percent were foreclosures sales”
.
.
“When a property in foreclosure is sold on the courthouse steps in California, 97 percent of the time, it goes back to the lender, according to ForeclosureRadar.”

Two quotes from two different stories. Assuming the second quote can be applied to the first (about Monterey County):

.97 * (.76 * 940) = 693 houses technically sold but went back to banks.

693 / 940 = 74% of all houses “sold” in Monterey County went unsold.

I wonder what percentage of the remaining 26% were sold to owner occupants.

Ouch.

Comment by SDGreg
2008-11-03 16:30:03

“I wonder what percentage of the remaining 26% were sold to owner occupants.”

The MSM has touted the increase in September sales as evidence that housing is beginning to stabilize. If you only include sales to owner occupants and legitimate investors, how low would have been the September sales numbers? If the increase in sales is little more than lenders buying back their own properties, is this any sign of stabilization at all?

 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-11-03 14:02:03

CrookCounty,
Foreclosure sales are not counted on the Relators MLS sales.
I do not know if anyone counts them except.
They are “courthouse foreclosure sales” there own thing.
Do not think Case Schiller or gov stats take this number into account.
-
As far as most going to the judgement holder, that’s what I’ve seen in FL also.

Comment by JohnF
2008-11-03 16:34:19

Foreclosure sales are also supposedly not counted on the DataQuick stats of total sales, or supposedly, the reported CAR sales.

When they do their press releases they constantly confuse people. They say __% of sales this month were prior foreclosures. What they mean is that the sale was a “real” sale, but that the property sold had been previously foreclosed upon.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 20:00:53

Really? I thought we determined a couple years ago that CAR includes foreclosures as sales.

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 19:55:57

No offense, Crook, but we’ve known that on the blog for quite some time now.

Comment by CrookCounty
2008-11-03 23:01:28

I’ve heard it said both ways. So which is it? Foreclosure sales mean bank to non bank sales (just home was foreclosed in past 12 months), or foreclosure sales include bank to bank “sales”?

Do the foreclosure sales have to be listed with a RE agent? Or do listings include bank “listings”?

Allegedly, the foreclosures have been moving, and foreclosure inventory has only slightly been increasing (no more than a couple hundred units a month). I find that hard to believe, especially with condos.

It seems to me liquidity is being manipulated. Either foreclosures are moving much slower than it appears, or listings inventory should be much higher than they appear. I ask because if I was doing a RE pump and dump, that’s how I would do it.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 23:22:24

I am like 80% certain that we figured out a couple years ago that CAR was including back-to-bank foreclosures as sales. They may not be including the price of the sale in their median calculation, but they are still counting the sales. The listings usually don’t appear on the MLS because a lot of banks hire internal RE agents who advertise them on the bank’s website. Then the bank can require that the prospective buyer use said bank for his/her financing.

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Comment by James
2008-11-04 00:07:08

Jim the realtor had an interesting post on his blog. He mentioned the shadow inventory in one of his zips was about 10X the MLS inventory for REO. He had 11 properties listed and then found about 50 pending listing.

Banks are over whelmed.

Not really caring if banks list these properties as sales or not. They will start to push harder to get rid of them in the spring after screams about the tax bills mount.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2008-11-03 13:04:52

“Local property managers say it’s anybody’s guess where the market is headed. But across the nation, rents and vacancies, at least in the multifamily category, are expected to increase in 2009.”

If vacancies are increasing, wouldn’t rents typically fall?

“Because a lot of potential first-time buyers are staying on the sidelines, we expect rents to rise respectably in part because of a healthy demand for rental units,’’ said Walter Molony, spokesman for the National Association of Realtors.

Except that’s not what’s happening as shown by the experiences in San Luis Obispo County. The supply of housing available for rent has increased and demand is at best stagnant as people double up due to the softening economy.

I’d noticed that there are now lots of signs outside my apartment building advertising units for rent. This is entirely new, not something that has been done periodically in the past. When I asked about it last week, the on-site manager said they’d recently had as many as 8 units vacant, since down to 4. The building has 60 some units of which there are typically no vacancies. The on-site manager believes the new property company has overreacted, but also noted that due to the softening economy more people were doubling up and one resident recently left after losing a job. This is a well-maintained property in a good area. I do expect that the vacant units will be filled without too much difficulty. However, when good properties in good areas have vacancy rates of more than 10 percent, even briefly, that’s hard to ignore. This is a much softer rental market than anything in the past decade.

What’s happening in reality is much closer to what was predicted by many on this blog than the cr@p still coming from the clowns at the NAR.

Comment by az_lender
2008-11-03 16:08:44

Agree. Lots of people in SLO rent out the back bedrm or the chicken shed, to make ends meet.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-03 17:26:36

I’ve heard stories of people taken out to the shed to “make ends meet”. Back bedroom too.

 
 
Comment by JohnF
2008-11-03 16:38:59

My un-scientific study of Thousand Oaks is that 3 bedroom apartments are in high demand - families that still can’t afford homes, or those that lost a home to foreclosure.

One bedrooms and two bedrooms are experiencing higher vacancies with more “free rent” promotions in these categories which are usually demanded from singles and no-kid families.

Comment by HARM
2008-11-03 17:36:13

God forbid young-uns today have to *share* a bedroom or bathroom. Like me and my 2 brothers did back during the Dark Ages (1970s). In fact, for one brief period the whole family had to make due with a 700 sft ONE bedroom. Mom slept on a pull-out couch in the living room, the rest of us crammed into the one tiny bedroom. Not pleasant, but we managed until mom’s employment situation improved.

Does the Millenial generation understand what “belt tightening” really means? I doubt it.

Comment by sf jack
2008-11-03 19:14:51

I agree, as most under 40 have no idea…

I recall the double dip recession in the early 1980’s, in part brought on by Paul Volcker’s interest rate policy.

At that time, none other than President Reagan gets in front of the cameras and says something like “everyone’s going to have to do a little belt tightening.”

Where are the leaders of today, especially those not campaigning, on the current situation? What are their communications?

If anyone has any brains in the Obama camp, one of the first things he’ll do during his inaugural speech, if not much earlier, is talk the same way.

Lowered, but realistic, expectations - would do the new Administration and “the consumer” (formerly “the citizenry”) a lot of good.

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Comment by pismoclam
2008-11-03 21:06:18

Volcker saved us from Jimmy Carter’s 20% inflation and I’ve got 22% paid off notes from the BAC to prove it.

 
Comment by gab
2008-11-05 17:14:08

“Volcker saved us from Jimmy Carter’s 20% inflation and I’ve got 22% paid off notes from the BAC to prove it.”

Apparently clam has forgotten Richard Nixon’s wage-price controls and Gerald Ford’s “whip inflation now” campaign.

Also seems to have forgotten the mid-70’s Arab oil embargo.

The inflation of the late 70’s was not a Carter phenomenon.

 
 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-11-04 05:18:04

I live in Thousand Oaks too, and it has gone down hill in the past 5 years. LL’s are going Section 8, and the illegals are taking over affordable bldgs. When we sold, we moved on Erbes Rd (month to month-stuff in storage). Boy, the maggots make horrible neighbors. Next year, we’re jumping back into the sfh market. This has been a learning experience. T.O. has lost it charm.

 
 
Comment by Neil
2008-11-03 17:58:58

However, when good properties in good areas have vacancy rates of more than 10 percent, even briefly, that’s hard to ignore. This is a much softer rental market than anything in the past decade.

That’s deadly and based on pre-election layoffs. Post-election layoffs will be scary.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 20:03:04

Asking rents will rise, but as vacancies increase, getting rents will decline.

 
Comment by SuperTimmy
2008-11-04 21:11:07

This one seems obvious to me. If you have more houses built over the past 5-6 years than are needed, then you will have more houses on the market for sale, and for rent. So housing prices as well as rents will fall.

 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-11-03 13:18:24

“‘If the prices go low enough, people will buy, and why wouldn’t they?’ said Sandy Haney, CEO of the Monterey County Association of Realtors. ‘It was always the adage: Once a buyer can buy cheaper than he can rent, the decision’s been made — providing they qualify for the loan.’”

This is somthing you don’t read every day, A realtor who makes sense.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 20:06:03

During the Great Depression, rents were much higher than monthly mortgage payments. Trouble was that no one had enough cash to buy, and no one could get a loan. Do you guys think that might happen again?

Comment by Leighsong
2008-11-03 21:53:11

You’ve answer(ed) your own question.

Leigh

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2008-11-04 09:35:11

I doubt it. The government has made the guarantee on FMN and FRE EXPLICIT, so they will be financing the entities that will be lending to buyers until the truly private market thaws.

That was precisely why FMN and FRE was taken over…

 
 
Comment by SuperTimmy
2008-11-04 21:13:10

This is an accurate statement. The big question is, when will prices fall to the level of rents? In Oakland CA where I live, this is still a ways off. I suspect it will never be cheaper to buy than to rent here, at least in the very nice neighborhoods. There are just too many wealthy people living here that the normal laws of supply and demand do not apply to.

 
 
Comment by SV_Renter
2008-11-03 13:37:25

In our hood, renting is still much less than buying and prices are only about 15% off of peak. We earn about double the median income of the area and would be stretching to buy the median priced house.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 13:47:43

“For now, inventory remains high — 2,747 properties were listed for sale at the end of September, up from 2,480 in January — and no small portion of those are foreclosures. ‘Until that inventory is reduced, that’s when we’ll start seeing what the market’s really made of,’ said Haney. ‘Right now, it’s still a fire sale.’”
================

Got Harshmallows?

Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 20:07:35

Right, when the market is weak, we “don’t know what it’s made of”. When the market is gangbusters ridiculous, that’s supposedly healthy or normal. Some people have no grip or clue whatsoever.

 
 
Comment by cassiopeia
2008-11-03 13:54:01

Anecdotal evidence for drops in rents in LA’s Westside. I know of two nice duplexes for rent (one floor) in Carthay place that have been on the market for over 2 months. One is a really beautifully done 3 bedroom ground floor that even comes with a back yard, I saw it in person 2 months ago and it keeps popping up in my Craigslist search at just under $4,000. Not far from there, another 3 bedroom (top floor) has been around for a while at 3,500.
Then I saw a decent house in a very good part of Cheviot HIlls at 3,850 on a Sunday on Craigslist. When I called on Monday it had been reduced to $3,550. It’a a pity the bedrooms were small. I would really have considered renting it if not (with an additional price drop, of course :-)

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-03 14:38:11

My sister lives in Westwood. Those prices still seem insane to me. Of course, I wouldn’t live there for $500 per month.

Comment by cassiopeia
2008-11-03 16:02:23

You wouldn’t live in Westwood for $500 per month? I would, but then, if rents in Westwood for a 3 bed get to $500, you could get paid to live in a McMansion in Mar Vista. :-)

 
Comment by Central Valley Guy
2008-11-03 19:59:07

Dang, maybe I should rethink the $3000 we pay per month for a nice house in Westwood.

Then again, maybe not. Couldn’t cop a mortgage for that amount on a place like this.

 
Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-11-03 23:17:45

I lived in Westwood for under $400/month seven years ago. But that was student-size accomodations on the side of someone’s house. Free HBO. It was a neat little place, but it makes my rented 1,600 sf Arizona house seem like a palatial estate.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-03 14:17:20

MEW, what’s that smell?

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-11-03 14:41:49

OT: Obama’s grandmother just died.

I’d love to see the right wingers twist this one into a conspiracy against them.

Comment by Mo Money
2008-11-03 16:03:12

Here let me try:

She died ON PURPOSE so we’d feel sympathy for Obama and vote for him !!! She could have waited until AFTER the election !!!!

Comment by James
2008-11-03 18:20:18

I knew he’d kill her!

:)

Comment by HARM
2008-11-03 18:53:35

Ok, so now how does Sean Hannity link that to Vince Foster, Monica Lewinsky & Whitewater?

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Comment by Big V
2008-11-03 20:10:47

He killed her so she wouldn’t be able to tell the truth: She’s not his real grandma, and he’s not really half white.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-03 20:39:46

Nah, based on how I’ve heard people talk about him, they seem to forget that fact and think he’s out ta git whitey!

 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-11-03 20:07:08

Who cares! She’s not an Amurrrican! She’s from Hawayee!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-04 03:42:04

“Professor emeritus Ted Ruprecht believes renters may get a break in the years ahead as foreclosures increase supply the same way they did when he lived through the Great Depression. ‘We rented houses foreclosed by banks, lived in them until they sold and then moved to another,’ he said.”

I look forward to the day when I can similarly educate my grandkids.

 
Comment by Todd_S
2008-11-04 13:38:42

Here are a couple of articles from my local paper from the Inland Empire region:

3 suspects arrested in alleged foreclosure scams
http://www.insidesocal.com/news247/2008/11/3-suspects-arrested-in-alleged.html

$300B FHA rescue funds available to homeowners - with a hitch
http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_10892306

 
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