November 5, 2008

A State Of Overbuild

The Grand Junction Free Press reports from Colorado. “Seven hours before the polls closed in Colorado, Sen. John McCain asked supporters at a noon rally Tuesday in Grand Junction to help him win the state. He also pledged to work on the nation’s housing situation. ‘I’m going to make sure we take care of the working people who are devastated by the excesses and greed and corruption of Wall Street and Washington,’ McCain said. ‘My friends, we have to fix our housing market, we’ve got to get home values up, keep people in their homes — that’s the American dream, and I’m going to protect it.’”

From Real Vail in Colorado. “There are some benefits to living in a town mostly made up of voluntarily disenfranchised voters (second, third and fourth homeowners). It only took a half hour to vote in Vail this morning, a town of under 5,000 permanent residents where 70 percent of the homes are owned by out-of-town residents. And some of those McMansions will no doubt be going on the market if Wall Street continues to crater and a few more CEO indictments are handed down.”

“Most of the voters in line were young resort workers who live in ‘affordable’ workplace housing, and one longtime election judge said Vail’s only polling place was as busy as she had seen it in her 30-plus years of volunteering. The Eagle County clerk was predicting close to 100 percent turnout for active voters.”

“Meanwhile, a columnist for the Vail Daily, Richard Carnes, urged people who were ‘too stupid’ to know the issues not to vote. His column ran under the charming headline, ‘If ignorant of issues, don’t vote in Eagle County.’”

From TVNZ. “I thought I’d hear it somewhere on the floor of the ballroom at the Arizona Biltmore. I had to ask the question and it was Joe the Cab Driver (real name Dan) who voted for McCain because he thought Obama lacked experience , who answered that yes, this was the election to lose if your were going to have to lose one.”

“Arizona is as good a place as you could want to see the housing bubble bursting and prosperity replaced with nervous penny-pinching and penury. With neighbouring Nevada, it has the highest rate of mortgage foreclosures in the United States.”

“As we drove back from McCain’s final Arizona rally, just hours before the dawn on election day, we stopped at a Circle K for gas and food. A nice woman named Kathy…explained expansively as only an American seems happy to do, all her woes: the construction downturn that has left her husband all-but unemployed as a tiler; a daughter with tens of thousands of dollars owing on a credit card that her newly unemployed husband knows nothing about; the neighbours from the upscale town of Anthem who now come in to ask her about shifts at the store.”

“‘There are five hundred house foreclosures here in town right now,’ she explains adding not a night passes lately without a repo man towing another new car stopping by for gas.”

“Arizona is built on growth, mostly construction and real estate speculation. In four days I’ve met only four people who were born here. The rest arrive with dreams and a debt, usually a no-deposit home loan. Fundamentally it is no different from what we’ve been seeing in our own housing market - just far more extreme and widespread and a dagger in the side of the world’s biggest economy.”

“It’s this broken economy which Barack Obama must now mend, so that he can hold on to a bankrupted title. The American people have foreclosed on the Republicans, but handed him perhaps the toughest job on the planet.”

The Arizona Republic. “Liquidation sales begin today as Circuit City Stores Inc. begins the process of closing its 13 retail outlets in metro Phoenix. Signs saying ‘Everything must go!’ are indicators of pressures many retailers suddenly feel from tight-fisted lenders as well as from consumers slamming the brakes on after years of splurging.”

“Around town on Tuesday, shoppers were talking about Circuit City and other retail cutbacks. Darrell Stapleton of Maricopa walked through Casa Paloma Shopping Center in west Chandler and looked around at 50 percent- and 60 percent-off signs in windows of apparel shops. ‘It’s the pits,’ he said. ‘The banks have money, but they won’t lend it.’”

“Ahwatukee retirees Barbara Lupia and Isabel Mackenzie said they believe stores that are closing probably should be out of business. ‘I think we are definitely over-retailed,’ Lupia said.”

“Phoenix Vice Mayor Peggy Neely, whose district includes Paradise Valley Mall, said she hears from constituents who worry about the community impact of empty stores: ‘They worry about blight. It can be a reflection on the neighborhood.’”

“Timothy James, an economist at Arizona State University, views the situation seriously. He thinks regional economic woes may make the retail slowdown continue longer here than in other places. ‘We are in a state of overbuild. There is too much retailing,’ James said. ‘And there is downward spiral in consumer confidence as people worry about their own particular prospects.’”

The Arizona Daily Star. “At first glance, this three-bedroom, two-bathroom home might seem like a steal for the listed price of $110,000. But in this small copper-mining community 60 miles east of the fringes of the Phoenix area, it’s more than many who live or work around here can afford. ‘Our economy is strong here — yes, copper has dropped lately — but there wasn’t the huge losses you see in the rest of the country,’ said Angela Antilla, a broker with Oak Realty in Globe.”

“Rick Reed is one buyer who wound up in Florence. He is selling a three-bedroom home with one and three-quarters baths here and bought a foreclosed home in Florence for $85,000, upgrading to five bedrooms and three baths. Antilla said a similar house around Globe would cost around $200,000. ‘We are getting a better house, a newer house and paying a lot less money,’ Reed said. ‘We couldn’t touch a house here.’”

“Reed said the new location also will help should he or his wife decide to work in the Phoenix area.
‘We’re going to commute for now and see how that plays out,’ he said. ‘But none of us are getting rich out here, so we also have options if we choose to relocate in the future.’”

In Business Las Vegas from Nevada. “In a seminar titled, ‘Getting Through the Hard Times - Coping With Real Estate Adversity,’ experts made it clear that basing any business strategy on hope of a quick rebound won’t help developers get through the tough times ahead.”

“There are more than 14,000 banked-owned homes in the pipeline, and no one knows for sure how many more are coming, said Larry Murphy, president of SalesTraq. When the number of foreclosures created in a month falls below the sales of foreclosed homes a rebound will be indicated, he said.”

“‘Nobody knows how many we are talking about,’ Murphy said. ‘You talk to banks, and they say they got lots of them. They don’t want to put them all on the market at one time. They are holding them back because if they dumped everything on the market, it would cause prices to fall even faster.’”

“Tom McCormick, president of Astoria Homes…called the recession of the late 1980s and early 1990s a vacation compared to what builders are going through today. ‘What we are seeing is the old model doesn’t work and the old model isn’t going to work,’ McCormick said.

“The market was so good during the boom that no matter what builders did they were successful, McCormick said. ‘So we did whatever was the easiest and whatever made us money the fastest. We got away from focusing on the consumers and giving them something that would be different and they would pay a premium for it,’ McCormick said.”

“When foreclosed homes haven’t been lived in and look no different from a new home, but is selling at a lower price, it’s hard to lure buyers, he said. ‘Those in the new-home business should be scared of what that means for our business,’ McCormick said.”

“Builders have exacerbated the problem by continuing to cut prices, McCormick said. Every time that happens, it sends a message to buyers to wait because prices may get even lower, he said. ‘Builders are saying I must compete with foreclosures and lower prices, but they are absolute fools if they don’t think banks will continue to lower prices to get them off the books,’ McCormick said.”

“In the end, all that will do is wipe out home values in the neighborhoods where they are selling and further increase foreclosures, he said.”

“At a time the new-home market remains weak, lowball appraisals are giving homebuilders another stumbling block in any sales rebound, according to the Southern Nevada Home Builders Association. Even buyers who are able to line up mortgages are finding that lenders are making them come up with a bigger down payment because appraisals are coming in lower than the home is selling for, says Monica Caruso, the association’s spokeswoman. Sales are falling through because of it, she says.”

“Even homes with upgraded amenities and features such as granite countertops are being unfairly downgraded, Caruso says. ‘You have people who are working and struggling and saved 20 percent on a down payment on prices they thought were reasonable, but it is not enough, based on the appraisals,’ Caruso says.”

The Review Journal from Nevada. “Applied Analysis …the Las Vegas-based business advisory firm, reported an average price of $524,725 an acre for 427 acres sold in the third quarter, down 73.9 percent from the same quarter a year ago. Pricing of nonresort property fell for the third straight quarter following a peak of $939,400 an acre in fourth quarter of 2007.”

“‘It’s a function of what’s happening in the local economy and the effects of this global financial crisis,’ said Applied Analysis principal Brian Gordon. ‘There’s a significant amount of investor concern in the market. I think there’s certainly potential for further devaluation in the coming quarters.’”

“Demand for newly constructed developments has slowed while speculative land investments have come to a near standstill. Also, lender repossessions have brought pricing levels down further. The recent downshifting from unsustainable conditions reported from 2004 to 2007 is now being reflected in demand indicators, Gordon said.”

“‘The new realities of the market have price points resetting and those that purchased property during the past two years are trying to make financial sense of their investments,’ he said.”

“The land market is divided between those with the ability to weather the storm and those with no choice but to sell, Applied Analysis founder Jeremy Aguero said. Investors with available capital are looking for deep discounts.”

“‘Some aggressive investors are even seeking to obtain vacant property for the mere value of infrastructure improvements, which is irrational even in the current economic environment,’ Aguero said. ‘We have long held the position that a correction in land prices was necessary. It is now well under way.’”

“A few Cosmopolitan condominium buyers who signed contracts as long as 3 1/2 years ago have been asking representatives of the Strip development to return their deposits after learning the project won’t be completed until the second quarter of 2010. No estimated closing date was ever given, however, on a series of signed purchase and sale agreements. Also, the agreements say the seller is ‘not liable for delays’ and any ‘delays will not permit buyer to cancel, amend or diminish any of the buyer’s obligations.’”

“Bill Lackey, a former real estate agent from California, said he began asking for his money back a few months ago when it became apparent the project would not be completed for a couple of years. ‘By the time they’re projecting that they’re even going to attempt to complete it, in pretty vague terms, the money will have been sitting (in escrow) for five years,’ said Lackey, who put in nearly $140,000 in deposit money in May 2005. ‘I thought now that the developer has put into writing that the project wouldn’t be ready until 2010, he’s admitting he’s in default.’”

“In letters to Lackey, Cosmopolitan attorneys say the project ‘is continuing and making significant progress’ and the ’seller has no intention of terminating the agreement or returning deposits.’”

The Las Vegas Business Press from Nevada. “Streamline Tower, one of the signature projects of downtown redevelopment, has become the latest condo tower to face the wrath of unhappy buyers. Forty-eight of them, who signed up for but never closed on approximately three dozen units, filed a federal lawsuit in early October to gain refunds on deposits they claim range from $30,000 to $90,000 and total more than $1 million.”

“U.S. District Court Judge Lloyd George turned down their request on Oct. 20 for a temporary restraining order to stop developer Streamline Tower LLC from pulling their deposits out of escrow accounts, but scheduled a Nov. 24 hearing on a temporary injunction. ‘The irreparable harm of which the (buyers) complain is conjectural at this point,’ George wrote.”

“‘It’s not unexpected in a down market for people to look anywhere and everywhere to get out of their sales and purchase agreements,’ said Dusty Allen, Streamline’s managing partner. ‘Unfortunately, I am unable to give them their money back.’”

“Property records show that only 27 of the 275 units have closed, with the last sale coming Aug. 1, even though 156 contracts had been signed during the pre-opening sales push that began in 2005. Like several other developers of Las Vegas high-rises, he blamed the constricted mortgage market for the sluggish sales, particularly because so many of the units would require jumbo mortgages. Prices run from $450,000 to $1.5 million.”

“Violetta and Nathan Mordukhay of Encino, Calif. agreed to pay $469,900 for a one-bedroom, 832-square-foot unit, but received two appraisals of $355,000 and $386,000 when applying for a loan. The appraisals were conducted in April, but prices generally have continued to deteriorate since then.”

“While city officials, led by Mayor Oscar Goodman, have touted the various condo projects as the keys to attracting residents to downtown, the Streamline case indicates that locals have shown little interest. Only nine of the 48 plaintiffs in the lawsuit live in Las Vegas, with 34 from California and the rest from as far away as Florida and Ohio. Many of them, such as real estate investor Aaron Flint of Temecula, Calif, put down a deposit with the idea of turning a profit rather than living in Las Vegas. Even though he never closed, he has listed his unit for sale in an attempt to recover at least some of his $70,000 down payment.”

“Streamline broke ground in November 2004, originally expecting to open about two years later. Had the developers stayed on course, they might have avoided their problems by coming on line while the market was still receptive. Instead, complications delayed the issuance of the temporary certificate of occupancy until last April, when the first unit closed. Streamline received its permanent certificate only last month.”

“Based on comparable sales at other projects in the area such as the Newport Lofts plus single-family homes in outlying areas, Gary Fisher, a real estate agent with (a) branch of Sotheby’s International, estimated that Streamline prices would have to drop about 40 percent to 50 percent to become competitive. Fisher represents three owners attempting to resell their units and was the Streamline sales and marketing director until earlier this year.”

“In addition, the largest among the entities that held a piece of ownership ceased operations on July 3, although it did not file for bankruptcy. ‘It’s a nice project, well built and well appointed,’ said Fisher, who has been an active downtown booster. ‘But they really need to have some people in there.’”




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99 Comments »

Comment by climber
2008-11-05 10:30:57

‘My friends, we have to fix our housing market, we’ve got to get home values up, keep people in their homes — that’s the American dream, and I’m going to protect it.’”

So tell me this guy isn’t really a Democrat.

The real American dream is OWNING your home, not being in perpetual mortgage debt. Why can’t these clowns get it?

Comment by sf jack
2008-11-05 10:37:33

Exactly.

As for the Vail story, nearly all of the “vaction” homeowners I’ve ever met there could really care less if their property goes down in value.

They certainly didn’t buy them to speculate on Vail or Beaver Creek real estate.

Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-11-05 10:57:11

couldn’t care less. couldn’t. sigh.

Comment by In Montana
2008-11-05 11:20:30

Yeah but saying it wrong like that shows you reallllly don’t give a s***!

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Comment by Skip
2008-11-05 13:37:56

The affordable housing in Vail that he is talking about are rented trailers.

 
 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-11-05 11:03:47

10-4
he’s a man of honor, but offered too much lefty sht
cap ‘ n’ trade - pristine ANWR drove me nuts
leave the MO FREE sht to the left

Comment by SaladSD
2008-11-06 16:22:42

http://www.boom2bust.com/2007/12/12/is-a-republican-president-really-better-for-the-economy/

Refer to the study quoted in the article, which states that the GDP during Democratic administrations over the past 100 years has been substantially higher than during Republican administrations, even when you account for lag time between administrations.

 
 
Comment by yogurt
2008-11-05 11:04:22

The real American dream is OWNING your home, not being in perpetual mortgage debt. Why can’t these clowns get it?

Maybe McCain does get it.

Comment by Curt
2008-11-05 14:25:38

The real American dream is OWNING your home, not being in perpetual mortgage debt. Why can’t these clowns get it?

Maybe McCain does get it.

Nope. Unless it’s plural. (homes i.e.)

 
 
Comment by michael
2008-11-05 11:06:56

‘My friends, we have to fix our housing market, we’ve got to get home values up, keep people in their homes — that’s the American dream, and I’m going to protect it.’”

and obama is the socialist.

mccain’s hypocrisy was asstounding.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-05 13:00:33

He’s worse than a socialist - he’s a career politician. In desperation he trashed his legacy grasping for the golden ring. He could have taken the high road but he knew if his age was an issue in 2008 it would be an insurmountable issue in 2012.

Mortality.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-05 15:26:23

edge,

Eh… if I had my way we would have voted him in back in 2000… but? I do see what you’re saying, here’s what I would like to see, step away from politics altogether and share with an entirely new generation why we’re so f’d up. No punches pulled.

I don’t know if anyone else caught it but as the bail-out “containment” was spreading, I got the definite sense that all his natural instincts told him “They’re greedy, they screwed up and let ‘em drown” ( but you can’t say that stuff when you’re down in the polls? ) Double dumb if you’re up!

I don’t care what anyone here or anywhere else says, we’ll never see another American that willing to make scarifices for his country. Period.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-05 19:04:40

I agree about 2000. I can’t believe people let G-dub get away with hammering him the way he did. (on Larry King Live)

Having said that, he was way too agreeable to this version of the R party. I can understand why, but it is definitely what lost him the election.

In his speech last night he said he failed. Nope, his party failed him. It’s too bad, because if he’s parzdent in 2000 I think this country takes a much different course.

 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-05 13:28:56

Personally, I got tire of the “my friends” BS. Every time the guy opened his mouth, he was uttering those words. They’re still ringing in my ears.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-05 13:32:51

Me too. I got to the point of saying, “You’re not my friend.”

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-05 16:26:31

One of the drawbacks of growing old is a tendency to often repeat one’s self.

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Comment by salinasron
2008-11-05 11:25:09

“The real American dream is OWNING your home, not being in perpetual mortgage debt. Why can’t these clowns get it?”

For the same reason that these clowns think that leasing a car means that you own it. For these clowns “possession” means ownership, that’s why they don’t understand how something they ‘own’ can be repossessed.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-05 13:17:20

The McCains would certainly stand to benefit if they could only get home values to go up again, as they own how many houses again?

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:09:45

Because if you’re not forever in debt, you are not as easy to control. People who never actually own their homes can be kicked out on a whim by those in power by simply denying the latest refinancing scam, bailout, etc. People in debt over their heads also work longer hours, are thankful for Wal-mart jobs, and have less time to ask silly questions such as: why are all of our jobs gone? Why is Wall Street spending my tax-dollars on huge bonuses for crooks and failures? Why hasn’t anyone gone to prison yet for all of what has happened?

Now, get back to work and look forward to the day when you can “buy” an “affordable” $400,000+ starter townhouse with walls so thin you can hear your neighbor cry when he opens his 401k statement.

 
 
Comment by climber
2008-11-05 10:39:35

“It’s this broken economy which Barack Obama must now mend, ”

People are so lazy. Did Bush sign your mortgage papers? Did Bush tell you you could afford a house at 10x your salary?

Is Obama going to make your mortgage payments? Will Obama buy your house when it’s time to sell?

It’s not the President who made all those bad decisions, no it was the same people who elected, first Bush and then Obama. So, how is this going to turn into Nirvana?

This is like watching a three hundred million stooges show. Larry Obama and Curly CONgress are about to have their chance to put MO on the Supreme Court. Oh boy, our travails are over now!!! Life is going to be good.

Comment by Muir
2008-11-05 12:52:12

Not a happy camper this morning?

Comment by climber
2008-11-05 13:20:25

The whole election season has been one load of BS after another. It wouldn’t be so bad if the BS had some push back, but the press and most “voters” went along like brain dead zombies.

It’s been like watching morons debating which QB is the best field goal kicker. Or which tennis racket is best for golf. It’s just been totally pathetic.

Obama used to teach Constitutional law didn’t he? Why no discussion on his teachings and writings on the topic? Might that actually be RELEVANT?

Comment by Muir
2008-11-05 14:38:20

We may not agree, but this was funny.
“It’s been like watching morons debating which QB is the best field goal kicker.”
:-)

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Comment by wmbz
2008-11-05 15:47:38

Obama used to teach Constitutional law didn’t he?

No he never ‘taught’ anything, he was a lecturer, period. He did claim to be a professor of law, however he is not. Poor boy can’t keep his lies straight.

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Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-05 13:03:51

I’m tellin’ ya - all we need is one more stimulus package - just one more and the nightmare will end.

“Never Trust a Junkie”
-Intro to Ministry’s Just 1 Fix

Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-11-05 13:32:40

Fascinating song reference. Never saw Ministry live but I’ve seen NIN

I couldn’t help but think of the TuPac song “Changes” when he said we would never see a black president or what have you. That song is perhaps 10 years old.

Of course “Burning down the house” is older.

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2008-11-05 16:17:31

We were never going to see a black president when the black candidates were the likes of Jesse Jackson. “Vote me in because I’m BLACK my brothers!”

Like him or not, Obama showed you could be black, be a leader, and not be a ‘black leader’. He never tried to use race as an issue in the election, and because of that he wasn’t as divisive as he would have been.

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Comment by pressboardbox
2008-11-05 15:58:34

I’m thinking a one year moratorium on all bills. Free sh*t for one year. Then we can figure it out.

 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-11-05 14:46:30

This is going to be the most off-topic of off-topics today but here it goes.
Local MLS in FL shows me that in the last 24 hours the banks dropped a bunch of properties on the market. Actually, something like 6 different markets I follow.
I’m looking at 1999-2001 prices now.
Thoughts?
I mean, they just threw them out there, a whole bunch, at the lowest prices I’ve seen yet.

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-05 15:11:38

What markets in FL? I’m looking in Palm Beach, see any new ones in my neighborhood?

Comment by Muir
2008-11-05 16:53:12

Yes, give me zip codes tomorrow.
I only follow North Palm (Tequesta, Jupiter, Juno… 33469, 33477, 33408 …)

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:22:37

Hey, if the nutjobs in Congress pass the “Super-Duper Save Our Homes Act of 2009″ where they create some insane law like “housing can never go down by more than 1% in price per year” or something, then yes, they can “fix” the problems - in much the same way price controls “fix” problems, or rigging the stock market in Pakistan “fixed” it, etc.

 
 
Comment by JeanValjean24601
2008-11-05 10:57:16

The American Dream, version 2.008:

$300 Billion worth of socialistic giveaways…

“Seven hours before the polls closed in Colorado, Sen. John McCain asked supporters at a noon rally Tuesday in Grand Junction to help him win the state. He also pledged to work on the nation’s housing situation. ‘I’m going to make sure we take care of the working people who are devastated by the excesses and greed and corruption of Wall Street and Washington,’ McCain said. ‘My friends, we have to fix our housing market, we’ve got to get home values up, keep people in their homes — that’s the American dream, and I’m going to protect it.’”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-05 12:49:08

John McCain, you are NOT my friend.

 
 
Comment by intheknow
2008-11-05 10:59:25

Even homes with upgraded amenities and features such as granite countertops are being unfairly downgraded, Caruso says.

Oh no, not the granite countertops! They always add at least $10 grand to the value of a home don’t they?

Appraisals are designed to reflect the market, not to regurgitate a sales price that is too high. Any buyer who loses a house purchase because the appraisal indicates a lower value than the purchase price should be thanking the appraiser for saving them from a bad purchase.

Comment by climber
2008-11-05 11:16:07

It’s just so unfair.

Like prices going up 10x faster than incomes is fair?

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:26:44

Yes, unaffordable housing is, as we all know, the only way to improve quality of life for Amerikans. Not well-paying jobs, clean neighborhoods, a reduction in crime, good schools, etc. Nope - slap together some cruddy box-houses and sell them at some absurd multiple of area incomes and you have a great neighborhood!

 
 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-05 11:30:35

They add 10G MORE then they cost to have installed (and purchased) to the value of a home. Get it right. Apparently, people are willing to pay a 2X premium to have someone else pick out their countertops for them!

Anyone realize how STUPID the whole “flip this house” concept is for 99% of the population? Let me get this straight. You’re going to buy a home (losing a few % right off the bat because of the high transaction costs), PAY someone else to come in and install/fix everything, and then sell the home for MUCH more then the cost of the home + repairs/upgrades.

What value have you added here? You selected the countertops and color of the walls, and then paid someone else to do all the work. How is this adding value?

Add to that the very high carrying costs (interest/taxes/insurance) and the insane transaction costs (at least 5-10% combined with the in/out transaction), and it’s just a testament to how stupid people are that this was considered a sustainable business model!

Comment by The_Overdog
2008-11-05 12:30:59

It makes more sense than you are suggesting, considering that home repairs or changes to an occupied home lower the quality of life for the inhabitants while the change is occurring, require a cost that isn’t rolled into the mortgage, and most people don’t have the time to vette contractors or search for the best deal.

You can look at it as the same reason most people don’t build their own home, but rather take the standard model or buy a used house.

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-05 12:47:54

Perhaps it does offer “some” value. But very, very little. For most of the repairs made during a flip, the owner could do it themselves (select contractors/colors/etc), and stay at the 4 Seasons while the repairs are done for MUCH less then the costs to have a “flipper” do it. These guys are trying to make 30-40K on their flips AFTER the cost of labor/materials. And most of the time the work is completed in <30 days. That’s 1K a day. I think most people could deal with the disruptions in their lives for 1K a day! :)

Also, remember the flipping costs themselves, the 3-6% on BOTH sides of the transacation. Frankly, I don’t think (unless you can get WAY below market labor) there’s any way to make it pan out for most people. The only reason it “worked” for awhile is because of the housing bubble.

I didn’t know a single person 20 years ago that was buying, fixing, and selling houses on a 3-4 month timeframe. The only thing I ever saw was people buying a “fixer-upper” putting in a ton of sweat equity, holding it for 3-5 years, and selling it for a small profit. That model makes sense (because you are actually doing the work). The model of “buy it, hire someone, sell it for huge gain” is, IMHO, not at all valuable to the economy.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-05 13:22:10

“Also, remember the flipping costs themselves”

Well ‘there’s’ something you won’t see on FlipperVision? Besides, like a lot of us I did “Re-Mo’s” w/ dad. He would’ve had an absolute FIT at the way these clowns relish in their “tear out” phase!

Great, make as big a mess as you can and raise enough dust to where even the neighbors complain. Brilliant. Uh… was that one of those load bearing walls Pop? Anything ( and I do mean anything ) of value was salvaged for future jobs. We even saved nails if they came out straight enough.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-05 13:35:37

D, the saving of nails reminds me of a fellow volunteer at Habitat Tucson. He was renowned (or notorious, depending on your point of view) for scouring the build site for nails on the ground.

If they were a little bent, he’d straighten them out, then put them back in the proper buckets. Sometimes, these recycled nails would work just fine. Then there were times when you’d hammer the nail and it would just fold up. We got to calling those nails “Perry Nails.”

 
Comment by Brian in Chicago
2008-11-05 14:04:36

Home “deconstruction” is gaining traction. Hopefully idiot flippers will see the value in saving perfectly fine stuff so they can sell it to someone else.

This is an excellent article about the growing industry and includes some cost information.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/recyclablehouse/

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-05 15:18:01

Arizona Slim,

And that is exactly ‘my’ recollection as well. To be truthful a lot of that stuff wound up in dog houses and chicken coops but hey!

The point is that you made an effort to at least save it. Our garage was full of sinks, stoves and a lot of other stuff ( but I seldom remember the old man -buying- anything? ) Obviously in the Go-Go 2000’s no one could be bothered w/ that.

 
Comment by packman
2008-11-05 17:58:20

The way homes are built these days - deconstruction is a lot easier than it used to be. Seriously.

 
 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2008-11-05 12:53:51

You are getting paid for your brilliant ‘vision’ in putting the whole thing together. Isnt that how Trump made his zillions? A true visionary is entitled to absurd compensation.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:31:01

And, like Trump, entitled a bail-out when reality comes crashing home with the lesson that “vision” - unlike “real work” - produces nothing if the vision is nothing but shortsighted greed.

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Comment by MacAttack
2008-11-05 13:35:24

We have a rule in our house. Any “improvement” must be justified by US using it over the 30 more years we plan to live in the house. I’ve always laughed at the HGTV/flipper show Expense: $5000, Added Equity: $15,000 BS. The old (pre-bubble) rules of thumb were percentages of cost recovery - none close to 100% - much less 200%!.

Obama has his work cut out for him - as McCain would, had he been elected. Our cabal at work are Obama supporters, but we’ll HAMMER on any attempts to just bail people out wholesale. Anything that’s done requires deep consideration of unintended consequences, and careful application.

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-05 15:16:05

That whole idea of “5K in, 25K out” is terribly flawed. Frankly, if that worked, everyone could/would make a fortune just fixing up (actually, having someone else fix up) their homes. If you could really make 2X profit in 3 months, trust me, there would be MASSIVE companies doing nothing but buying and flipping homes.

You’re very lucky to get back what you’ve put in on a home improvement. VERY lucky. Getting back 200-500% is just insanity, it’s not going to happen. The builders (ground up) don’t make that kind of profit! If there was really that much money to be made there, Toll would stop building homes and start fixing up sh**boxes! :)

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Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-11-05 13:36:37

The issue (from what I understand) is that the people have no money of their own. So it’s buy a fixed up house where you get everything, or buy a cheaper house with lower loan terms but less money to put into fixing it up.

I’ve heard the modern appliances are all made in China and are of bad quality. Failures right around warranty expiration. And of course, the radon danger of granite.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-05 13:51:03

Remember that when people buy a house that has the “improvements” already done they are getting a house loan for everything and only have to pay “per month” with nothing down.

If they were to buy the house without the “improvements”, they would then have to find someway to come up with the money themselves. Most people have little in savings, much less enough for a down payment and property renovations.

 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-11-05 12:43:50

“Even homes with upgraded amenities and features such as granite countertops are being unfairly downgraded”

Oh, the humanity!

Comment by SFC
2008-11-05 13:03:17

I know, this is stunning. Next thing we know, they’ll be telling us that adding $3,000 worth of 22″ wheels doesn’t increase the value of a 1995 Chevy Caprice by a similar amount.

Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-11-05 13:41:24

Wait, are you in Virginia Beach / Norfolk too? Friend originally from our area (757) moved to San Jose. Recently moved back. I said “Wait till you see what they’ve done with the surplus cop cars!” Low riders are gone. Eurosport civics are still around a bit. Still got Escalades on 26″’s. But the caprices seem to be the in thing. Tickets can be written by the police for when people jack up the cars to fit on the 26″ or 28″ rims, it’s improper suspension modification.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-05 13:58:08

It doesn’t?

Dang, there goes my business plan.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:38:39

There is always some new way to make a car more ghetto!

My personal favorites are the ones on stupid, custom wheels that have failing paint jobs, dents, etc. Yeah, nothing says “look at me!” like a scrapheap on shiny rims - whatever!

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Comment by B. Durbin
2008-11-07 17:13:05

When we bought our car, the salesman was astonished that we refused to pay for the $3 grand rims. “That’s usually a selling point,” quoth he.

Mind you, this is for something that is the functional equivalent of a station wagon— which is exactly what we were looking for. (We didn’t buy used because as a model type it was only a year old— and it was precisely what we needed. And we’re keeping it until it expires of old age, making sure that maintenance is regular and thorough.)

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Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-05 13:11:46

My place must really be up sh*t creek then because it has laminate countertops. Worse still, they are white with a “fifties modern” gold starburst pattern.

Never in the field of human endeavour have grown men been so concerned with kitchen finishes. I call that progress - since we used to have to worry about primitive concerns like eating and shelter.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-05 13:27:17

edge,

One of the few surviving builders in our Oregon town “gets it”. He’s still around b/c he lowballed on lots and builds a basic 1,200 s/f floor plan.

Since he’s just down the hall from me we have laughs about that stuff w/ regularity! ( The guy wears the same “dress” shirt to church )

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Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-05 15:23:54

Funny how some businesses know instinctively how to survive - while others clamor for bailouts. Seriously, a whole lot of businesses need to be flushed out of the system during this cycle.

 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-05 13:36:07

A few years back, while perusing craigslist, I came across a listing for an older mobile home which was completely decked out in granite, stainless, and hardwood. It was absolutely hysterical. Talk about over improving a property, by god…

Comment by CasaTostada
2008-11-05 13:53:25

The worst part is that a lot of these flippers have bad taste (or at least their taste isn’t the same as my taste). I looked at a house about six months ago in a great location that was 30 years old and in pretty bad shape, but with a neat layout. A true fixer upper. The idiot owner (whose former owner-Mom had passed away) was redoing the house and effectively ruining it with tacky run of the mill flooring, counertops, etc.. If I’d have had any intention of considering the place, I would have tackled him and told him to stop immediately.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-05 15:34:09

Casa,

…it can’t be just ‘your’ taste. Like BanteringBear I’ve scoured through more listings during this darn bubble… Seldom if -ever- would I say that I saw something “artfully” done? 99.9% of the time, total cr@p.

 
 
 
 
Comment by cereal
2008-11-05 13:50:42

What a wonderful segway to renegotiate a lower price.

Poor buyer my eye

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-11-05 14:00:49

RE: Appraisals are designed to reflect the market, not to regurgitate a sales price that is too high.

No offense, but what planet are you living on?

Comment by intheknow
2008-11-05 16:47:38

I live on the planet USPAP, which is the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice.

The problem with my planet is that there aren’t too many barriers of entry to be an appraiser, so there are all kinds of idiots who got into the business when things were good, qualifications (and ethics) be darned. I don’t consider those people real appraisers, I like to think of them as fake appraisers (even though they may look like appraisers on the outside).
There have been plenty of banks who preferred these idiot appraisers during good times. Being in Florida I would guess banks like First Priority and Freedom Bank - (both shut down by the FDIC) gave plenty of business to appraisers with less than sterling ethical standards. But now that times have changed and surviving banks actually wants to know what a property is worth, we will see many of these “alien appraisers” crawl back under the rock they came from. They won’t be able to stand the scrutiny. Then they’ll go back to being realtors or fast food clerks. Or they will find the next-big-thing and become a “professional” at that.

Comment by hd74man
2008-11-05 17:54:14

RE: I live on the planet USPAP, which is the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice.

I know what USPAP is.

I took the continuing ed course every other year for like 23 years as it was required by the state licensing board.

How many times is that? 11? Virtually thousands of dollars lost in tuition, travel expense and lost time for work.

Most worthless crock ‘o bureaucratic crapola to ever come down the pike drafted by high muckity mucks in DC without a fookin’ clue about what was going on in the real world.

Did a real lot for the system, don’t ya think?

I always used to like to watch the known number hitters laugh and smirk during lectures as they bragged to each other about how much money they were bringin’ in.

And no matter who the instructor was, he’d always look like you were a martian with 3 heads when you threw the reality of what was goin on in the street back at him during the lectures.

Although, in the latter years right before the bust you could tell by the expressions, the dudes pretty much knew it was all a con game.

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Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-11-05 11:33:26

Potemkin Peggy fretting about empty stores & houses?
=================================================

“Phoenix Vice Mayor Peggy Neely, whose district includes Paradise Valley Mall, said she hears from constituents who worry about the community impact of empty stores: ‘They worry about blight. It can be a reflection on the neighborhood.’”

Comment by Mo Money
2008-11-05 14:06:17

Places I think will close locations, feel free to add to list…..

Quizno’s - Way Overpriced
Subways - Too damn many
Frozen Yoghurt - expensive
Banks - way too many branches
Stone Cold - Bad expensive ice cream
Jamba Juice - I may be wrong on this one
Starbucks - one can only hope.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-05 15:17:30

Those really weren’t “bank” branches, they were loan stores.

During the boom I still brought my change jar down to my local “bank” where they begrudingly allowed me to deposit it. While waiting in line I paid close attention to the other customers - I can’t remember too many depositors. The customers were doing far too much talking and hand gesturing to have been simply depositing money.

 
Comment by Houston we have a problem
2008-11-05 15:58:22

>Places I think will close locations, feel free to add to list…..
>
>Quizno’s - Way Overpriced
>Subways - Too damn many
>Frozen Yoghurt - expensive
>Banks - way too many branches
>Stone Cold - Bad expensive ice cream
>Jamba Juice - I may be wrong on this one
>Starbucks - one can only hope.
Whole Foods (aka Whole Paycheck)

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-05 16:15:13

McDonalds- gross
Burger King- gross
Taco Bell- gross
Wendy’s- gross
Jack in the Box- gross
KFC- gross
Pizza Hut- gross
Godfathers Pizza- gross
A & W- gross
Little Caesars- gross
Domino’s- gross

Ok, maybe I’m wrong here, but it’s fun to dream.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-05 19:15:17

LOL!

I do like the Jumbo Jack at $1.29 though so back off that one.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-05 16:42:53

Krispy Kreme
In -n- Out Burger
And just about any other fast food chain you can name

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Comment by Central Valley Guy
2008-11-05 19:30:51

I hope to god Whole Foods doesn’t close locations. We need MORE places selling food that’s not laced with chemicals from China. Dude, what’s your issue with it? That’s a freakin’ Texas-based chain!!?!?!?!?!

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-11-05 18:40:47

How ’bout all them chain drug stores. Does every town need a Walgreens, CVS, Rite-Aid and the others when you have Wal Mart and all the grocery stores with pharmacy sections?

How soon before gas stations and 7-11’s have (legit) pharmacy sections?

Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-11-06 07:48:53

“Does every town need a Walgreens, CVS, Rite-Aid”

Here in Arizona, the question is does every corner need a Walgreens and/or CVS.

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Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-11-05 12:55:27

Did Vegas morph into Florida when nobody was looking?

People trying to get their deposits back on condos that are never going to be built, etc.

Forget what the land and materials to build a house cost, how low will houses in Vegas go?

Comment by Curt
2008-11-05 19:22:17

“…how low will houses in Vegas go?”

I think Ballys has a line on that.

Comment by Will
2008-11-06 08:14:02

“…how low will houses in Vegas go?”

Less than zero. How much will it cost to tear down the structure and clean up the land? Local governments will start imposing fines on unkept properties that are at least high enough to pay their cleanup costs.

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-06 10:43:29

Assuming the desert southwest doesn’t run out of water, of course?

 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-11-05 14:09:29

I really enjoyed the perspective of the NZ reporter in the OP.

But this:
“Applied Analysis …the Las Vegas-based business advisory firm, reported an average price of $524,725 an acre for 427 acres sold in the third quarter, down 73.9 percent from the same quarter a year ago.”

And this was “non-resort” property. Meaning suitable for either strip malls, SFHs, or small apartment buildings. Or maybe parking lots.

That seems like it still has a very long way to fall. As in maybe another 70% down. This is Las Vegas after all, with vast tracts of empty land everywhere, even in some of the “built-up” areas. And if you look at the return potential for yet another strip mall in LV… Yikes!

Comment by llking
2008-11-05 14:34:39

continue to build more strip malls…lol

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-05 16:16:53

I agree. Those land prices still sound totally ridiculous.

 
 
Comment by Jen Bones
2008-11-05 15:06:20

“Streamline Tower, one of the signature [condominium] projects of downtown [Las Vegas] redevelopment, … ‘is a nice project, well built and well appointed,’ said Fisher, who has been an active downtown booster. ‘But they really need to have some people in there sell 99-cent shrimp cocktails; loosen up their dollar slots; change the name to “Steamline”; lease one-bedroom units by the hour; and feature live nude double-your-pleasure granite-countertop dancing.’”

Luv,
Jen

 
Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-11-05 15:59:54

““Phoenix Vice Mayor Peggy Neely, whose district includes Paradise Valley Mall, said she hears from constituents who worry about the community impact of empty stores: ‘They worry about blight. It can be a reflection on the neighborhood.’”

Yeah, Peggy, they will blend right in with the empty Phoenix houses and offices.

 
Comment by MightyMike
2008-11-05 16:22:14

“buyers who are able to line up mortgages are finding that lenders are making them come up with a bigger down payment because appraisals are coming in lower than the home is selling for”

What this quote means is that buyers are making a decision to pay more for a house than an appraisal says it is worth. Does anybody out there have an idea why buyers would do that? This seems to be happening in my neighborhood in south Scottsdale, AZ. (This is the high crime, blue collar section of Scottsdale.) Zillow says that the typical house in the neighborhood is worth around $330,000. Every once in a while somebody comes along and buys one of these houses for $400,000. I just wonder why a buyer would pay more than the comps says that the house is worth. The only thing that I can come up with is that these houses that are selling have the remodeled kitchens and bathhrooms with all the whoop-de-do granite and that people out there still willing to pay big bucks for that nonsense.

Comment by intheknow
2008-11-05 16:31:07

There are two reasons why that happens (buyers paying more than appraised value):

1. Everybody is a know-it-all and thinks they know more than the appraiser. All those flippers thought they were going to be real estate mogels - gosh, why believe that a person who spends their days valuing real estate when they tell you you are paying too much?

2. Buyer has an idiot realtor who they believe over an appraiser. Again, ridiculous. A realtor is not there to help you, they are there to make sure you buy a house so that they get a commission. Technically, an appraiser isn’t supposed to care if you buy the house or not; they are supposed to get paid regardless (i.e. “unbiased” third party).

Comment by Will
2008-11-06 08:30:51

Does the buyer even know what the lender’s appraisal was? Is this one of those numbers showing up, if at all, at the bottom of page 56 of the 82 pages of legal documents dumped in the buyer’s lap the morning of the signing ? Of course the Realtor has told the buyer he will need a larger down payment, but need he reveal why this is?

 
 
Comment by hd74man
2008-11-05 18:08:18

RE: “buyers who are able to line up mortgages are finding that lenders are making them come up with a bigger down payment because appraisals are coming in lower than the home is selling for”

What this quote means is that buyers are making a decision to pay more for a house than an appraisal says it is worth

No…what this sentence means is that these deals are DOA, for the buyer who has little or nothing for a down payment-which is probably 95% of purchasers.

And savy equity buyers aren’t gonna catch a falling knife.

That’s why in the past you needed a crooked appraiser so as to use his L/O coerced value as cover for the fictitious equity used in the down payment.

Game rules have been changed. The former number hitters are gettin’ rousted, so it’s become a dead market.

Sales brokers gotta be squealing like stuck pigs.

Comment by MightyMike
2008-11-05 19:52:40

Actually, I did think of one stupid reason that people might overpay for a house. Back in 2001 I was considering buying a townhouse in Tempe. This was before the bubble hit AZ, so a very nice 2/2 townhouse could be had for $95,000. One townhouse in the complex that I was looking at was listed for $99k, which I thought was overpriced. My realtor, however, told me not to worry. If I paid that much for the townhouse, $99k would be the latest comp. in that complex and all future sales in that complex would be based on that comp. By that logic, buyers don’t need to worry about getting a good price, because they can never overpay. The house is worth whatever amount they pay for it.

I don’t know if this mentality was prevalent during the bubble years, but it may explain part of the rapid increase in RE prices.

Comment by LongIslandLost
2008-11-06 05:06:49

The appraiser could be wrong. It could be that banks are black-listing appraisers right and left or suing them. So, the appraiser wants to go low to stay safe.

It seems unlikely, but it it possible.

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Comment by bkrazy
2008-11-06 23:54:15

hd74man,
this is a giant red flag for fraud. Any time that you see an out of wack sales price, there is a high chance that fraud is involved. Typically involving a straw buyer and or a large realtor kickback, with some good old fashioned steering thrown in to the mix.

 
 
Comment by Stan_the_man_at_6700_ft
2008-11-05 16:51:50

my post did not work all day… tes

 
Comment by measton
2008-11-05 21:51:30

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/119951

Ben Stein loosing his A##.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer scum bag.

 
Comment by jbarm
2008-11-06 13:33:28

Mmm yes. Obama is going to save us all. After all, the President pretty much is responsible for everything that happens in the US, good or bad. At least that is the simplistic simpleton Joe Six Pack view of the world.

Unfortunately the only thing that will fix the mess that we are in is time. Deleveraging time. Debt destruction time.

Of course this will go on for at least the next 4 - 7 years, and then Obama will be blamed for not fixing anything. If you are a Republican, you will thank your lucky stars that McCain did not win. The Demos will be blamed for our economy for the next 4 years.

BTW, is it racism when you vote for someone because of the color of their skin? When you have no clue as to their policies but just vote for them because they are your same color? Just wondering ’cause a lot of people did just that during this election.

jb

Comment by MightyMike
2008-11-06 17:23:16

It’s hard to say that a lot of blacks voters voted for Obama only because of the color of his skin. Ninety-five percent of black voters voted for Obama. However, four years ago, 88% of black voters voted for for John Kerry. So the Democratic candidate got 7% more of the black vote this year than in 2004. However, Obama also got 2% more of the white vote than Kerry got - 43% vs. 41%. This was likely due to the miserable state of the economy. If the same 2% shift occurred among blacks due to the economy, then it’s possible that only 5% voted for Obama solely because of his race. In other words, the Democrats would probably have gotten about 90% of the black vote even if their candidate had been white this year.

 
Comment by homepop
2008-11-06 17:47:00

jb,

I am in 100% agreement with you. I have been saying for the past 9 months that whoever was elected is doomed to be a one-term President. Our economic problems are not solvable in four years. I think that Hillary is keeping this in mind, for sure.

As for the Republicans, they are becoming a regional party, and they never have done much to ensure that they have a strong farm team prepared for the future contests. McCain…Dole…Papa Bush…give me a break. Reagan was old, too, but a master communicator. I did not vote for Obama, but I think his communication skills are almost as good, which can be a dangerous thing, depending on the soundness of his programs.

And yes, voting because of color (pro or con) is racist in my book.

 
 
Comment by DancingOpossum
2008-11-07 12:36:52

“He never tried to use race as an issue in the election”

Uhhhh…WHAT??? He used it constantly. He played the race card every chance he could, and made up chances when they didn’t arise. He called everyone who opposed him racist; remember when his zombies warned the media that certain words (like “qualified” and “competent”) were racist code words? He vilified the Clintons as racists. He talked ad nauseam about how “different” he “looked” from the other candidates. He delivered the World’s Bestest Evah Speech on Race EVAR to solemn and universal acclaim. He jumped on every perceived racial slight and magnified it to ludicrous level, unless of course you believe that Hillary Clinton really wanted to have him murdered.

 
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