Getting Their Butt Kicked, Too
The Seattle PI reports from Washington. “There was no denying the Seattle-area’s real estate funk at Williams Marketing’s annual forecast breakfast Friday. Kicking off the event, Williams President Leslie Williams noted that area real estate professionals were feeling good a year ago about how the market was holding up much better than others. ‘Now Seattle’s getting their butt kicked, too,’ she said.”
“The Federal Housing Finance Agency announced Friday that the Seattle area’s limit on loans Fannie and Freddie may buy will be $506,000 next year, down from this year’s temporary limit of $567,500. Brad Blackwell, national sales manager for Wells Fargo Home Mortgage, said the Seattle area’s run-up and decline is similar to California’s, just a year later. Mortgages above these caps are harder to come by because there’s no secondary market for them, meaning lenders have to keep the loans in their portfolios, Blackwell said.”
“Blackwell also said he was holding off on his own planned purchase of a second home in Boulder, Colo., because prices were still too high. ‘The developers and builders have not yet come to grips with the extraordinary amount of inventory that will be coming on the market in the next 12 to 24 months, and they’re holding their prices too high,’ he said.”
“October’s swoon also affected prices, with the median sales price of a King County house dipping below $400,000 for the first time since February 2006. The median, $392,000, was down 12 percent from a year earlier and 5.5 percent from September. Seattle’s median house price was $416,000, also the lowest since February 2006 — and down 12 percent from a year earlier and 2.4 percent from September.”
“The median Seattle condo price was $287,450, down 8.8 percent from a year earlier and 7.3 percent from September. ‘We’ve seen nicer houses at more reasonable prices than some of the crazy overpriced houses that had bidding wars before,’ said Scott MacColl, of Seattle.”
“It was a good time to buy, he said, and didn’t worry about the prospect of prices going down more after he bought. ‘If you continually look over your shoulder, you’re not going to be happy,’ he said.”
“‘We’re thinking about keeping our house and renting it out,’ MacColl said outside of a Mount Baker open house in late October.”
“For Dave Morton and Kristine Kitayama, the thought of trying to sell their Seattle home was the main reason they hesitated buying a new one, even though they like their chances. ‘We feel like our house would probably sell quickly — for certainly less than we’d get a year ago,’ Morton said.”
“Many frustrated would-be sellers are pulling their houses and condos off the market and renting them out, according to local property managers. ‘We’re getting a lot of that,’ agreed Dean Foggitt, broker at Brink Property Management in Bellevue, which manages rental houses and condos. ‘When your property’s been on the market for 180 days and you haven’t had a nibble, you’ve got to look at options.’”
“But people turning to the rental market may find their homes don’t rent as quickly or fetch as much as they hoped. The homes put up for rent instead of for sale and new condominiums bought in recent years with the intent of renting them out are driving up the area’s vacancy rates and slowing rent increases, according to local experts. ‘There are a lot more properties coming available,’ Foggitt said. ‘As a result, they’re not able to demand maybe the rents that they’re hoping for.’”
“Scott Greve became a landlord in 2002. He now owns eight rental homes in the Seattle area with his fiancee, including a condo in downtown Seattle’s new Cosmopolitan building, he said. Greve has noticed developers putting rental units into the market and lower prices in recent months, and that worries him. ‘Any time there’s more competition at your level, you have to think of a way to make your situation more attractive, and I’m concerned that that might involve a price decrease on the rent side,’ he said.”
“Dupre + Scott Apartment Advisors…blamed rising vacancies on a narrowing gap between rents and home prices. The average rent in the Puget Sound region is $996, up 7 percent from a year ago and 26 percent from three years ago, the firm noted. The median King County condo price was $275,000 in October, down 1.8 percent from a year earlier.”
“‘As a result, the mortgage payment on the median-priced condominium is now just 35 percent higher than the average rent in King County,’ Dupre + Scott said. ‘That’s still a wide gap, but it’s half what it was a year ago. And it’s near the point where consumers can justify switching to ownership.’”
“Developers opened 2,500 new apartments in buildings with at least 20 units last year in King, Pierce and Snohomish counties, and are forecast to open 2,620 this year and 6,700 in 2009. ‘Do we need all these units? Yes,’ Dupre + Scott said in their October report. ‘We just don’t need them so soon.’”
The Seattle Times from Washington. “Washington Mutual suffered an ugly death, leaving thousands without jobs, homeowners facing foreclosure, a civic crater in Seattle and a 100-year-old institution flushed away by miscalculation and greed. But perhaps nobody is angrier than shareholders, who were wiped out when federal regulators arranged the sale of the thrift’s assets to JPMorgan Chase for $1.9 billion.”
“One employee, who spoke on condition his name not be used because he was still working for WaMu, said he knew of veterans who had accumulated stock for as much as 25 years and never sold it. They were wiped out. Few are talking openly about it, this person told me. Many were frugal, loyal and proud of this company and were trying to build something that would last for another 100 years.”
“Although WaMu went public in 1983, its shares took off during the housing boom when they seemed like a surefire growth stock. This attracted no shortage of speculators. Many shareholders are too embarrassed by their losses to speak for the record. One, who did not want to be identified, said he lost $250,000.”
“‘The drop from $40 to $3 is unfortunate, but the writing was on the wall about that. Plus, that is part of the risk of investing. The part that neither I nor others can accept is the drop from about $3 to zero, plus the fact that the bank was dismembered rather than sold whole is shocking,’ he said.”
“This isn’t just about losing Washington Mutual. This is about how they and the rest of them destroyed my portfolio. They brought on this financial crisis,’ said Judy Bumbarger-Enright, a school librarian in Vancouver, Wash. Her nest egg is down 40 percent. She’s got a lot of company.”
The Bellingham herald from Washington. “Even by October standards, it was a very slow month for residential sales in Whatcom County. Gragg Miller of Coldwell Banker Miller-Arnason said the economic volatility the past couple of months also was a factor. ‘We had some spookiness of the stock market prior to October, but this was the first time we really saw it hit this hard here,’ Miller said.”
“Bob Jorgenson, a real estate agent with Coldwell Banker Evergreen Olympic Realty, said the county’s housing market remains stable because so many jobs here are tied to state and local governments. ‘People are realizing they still have jobs and still have the ability to buy a house,’ he said.”
“However, the Thurston County job market has taken a hit in recent months. Last month, 316 home sales were divided among 1,107 active real estate licensees in Thurston County, including agents, associate brokers and designated brokers, according to state Department of Licensing data.”
“Brian Fowler bought a house last month, paying about $230,000 for a three-bedroom, two-bathroom house in Olympia. Fowler said he wasn’t concerned about the economy. Instead, he was tired of paying rent and needed to accommodate his growing family, he said. He and his wife researched homes during the time they rented, then spent two months looking for a house when they decided to buy. They also took advantage of the current buyer’s market and paid less than the asking price for the house. Fowler couldn’t recall the listing price but said it was between $235,000 and $250,000.”
“‘I was paying rent for something that wasn’t mine,’ Fowler said about his time as a renter.”
The Mountain Town News on Canada. “Financial troubles are slowing the work at Revelstoke Mountain Resort, the major new ski area that was opened last year. While the details are still being sorted out, marketing director Ashley Tait told the Revelstoke Times Review, the Nelson Lodge is still to be completed, but the timing has shifted. Some staff members have been shed.”
“‘What you need to know is that we were overspent and in a very tough position,’ Rod Kesleer, chief operating officer, told the Revelstoke City council at an Oct. 27 meeting.”
“At Canmore, meanwhile, the $135 million Solar Resort & Spa has gone into receivership. Construction had stopped in September after the K2 Developments was unable to secure the final $3 million in financing. Of the 214 units, 50 remained for sale, sources told the Rocky Mountain Outlook.”
The Vancouver Sun from Canada. ” British Columbia’s jobless rate now stands at 5.1 per cent, the highest since December 2006, and represents 8,200 fewer full-time jobs than were available in September. That drop was the biggest for any Canadian province last month, the federal statistics agency said.”
“‘I think what we are facing right now is a very noticeable decline, obviously, in residential construction and when you look at a lot of that decline it’s in the multi-family side,’ Keith Sashaw, president of the Vancouver Regional Construction Association, said in an interview. ‘A lot of the developers just can’t get access to funding, or if they do, it’s very expensive. I [also] think the average consumer is sitting back and waiting until this issue gets sorted out before making decisions on whether to buy, and those kinds of things.’”
“‘We are going to be down, no doubt about that, but 2007 was just nuts. It was basically unsustainable at that point anyway, and we were projecting a moderation in activity off of 2007 just because it was a hyperactive market at that point,’ Sashaw said.”
“The development company Rize Alliance has put the brakes on its plans to demolish the old Cecil Hotel. Rize Alliance plans to build a 21-storey residential tower containing 166 apartments on the site. City council approved the plan in September but the state of the world’s money markets has caused Rize to slow down.”
‘Luke Harrison, a spokesman for Rize Alliance, said the expected cost of the development is in excess of $50 million. However, the company isn’t in any great hurry to market the suites. ‘We had thought we’d go to market at the end of this year, but a couple of things have slowed us down,’ Harrison said. ‘The civic strike (last year) held us up, but now we are waiting to see if there’s going to be a correction in the price of Vancouver housing. There has been a feeling that prices were getting to be unaffordable here.’”
The North Shore News from Canada. “Affordable housing dominated the debate at the final City of North Vancouver all-candidates meeting on Wednesday night. Neilson said all the speakers were erring towards NIMBYism. ‘I hear, ‘I don’t want towers,’ and ‘I don’t want coach houses,’ said Kelly Nielson, running for the first time, ‘and right now our seniors are being taxed out. Secondary suites let them stay near their families who can care for them.’”
“‘We have to preserve what rental stock we have. We keep hearing that more and more densification will help. Does anyone really believe that more $900,000 condos are going to help?,’ said Incumbent Bob Fearnley.”
“‘I am a renter,’ said Mary Trentadue. ‘And I don’t want to live in a tower. I want to live in a small house on the ground floor. Without affordable housing we are losing families, seniors and young people.’”
The Burnaby News Leader from Canada. “A new analysis of migration patterns inside B.C. upsets the notion that small-town folks are increasingly flocking to big cities. It found that from 2001 to 2006, Vancouver saw a net outflow of 25,560 B.C. residents. All other regions saw a net gain, and communities outside the big urban centres posted the largest increase, more than 17,000 people.”
“‘The largest of B.C.’s CMAs, Vancouver represents more than half of the provincial population,’ the B.C. Stats report says. ‘Also, as the third largest city in Canada, Vancouver is a primary destination for immigrants and inter-provincial migrants to B.C. However, individuals often move to Vancouver first, only to continue on to other parts of the province after a short stay.’”
The Globe & Mail. from Canada. “The glass and steel towers of waterfront condos have long dominated not just the skyline of downtown Vancouver, but also the residential construction industry in the Lower Mainland. But the era of the high-rise is coming to a close, the behemoths falling prey to a dramatic slowdown in the housing market.”
“For speculative investors, however, the drop in prices is lethal. Until last year, speculative demand begat rising prices, which begat new projects, which begat a new round of speculative buying, a lovely spree of what looked to be risk-free profits. Then came price stagnation.”
“The evaporation of double-digit price gains, and much higher debt-leveraged returns on investment, has killed off the class of buyers looking to flip condos. ‘Speculators have entirely left the market,’ says Jennifer Podmore Russell, managing director of a real estate consultancy based in Vancouver.”
BC Local News from Canada. “Detached house prices have fallen 9.8 per cent since May in Greater Vancouver and 6.5 per cent in the Fraser Valley, new real estate statistics for October show. The downturn has now erased all gains in the first few months of the year, carving $50,000 off the average Metro Vancouver home since the real estate market peaked this spring. Selling prices of condos in October are now down eight per cent since May.”
“Attached townhomes and duplexes are down 6.4 per cent in Greater Vancouver and 9.2 per cent in the valley in the past five months. ‘In some areas of the Fraser Valley, the number of days on the market has doubled in the past year, putting more pressure on sellers to lower their asking prices,’ said Kelvin Neufeld, president of the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board.’
“Sales were down 48 per cent in October from a year ago in the Fraser Valley and 55 per cent in Greater Vancouver. ‘It’s definitely a buyer’s market,’ said Dave Watt, president of the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver.”
“Even at the lower levels, Fraser Valley properties are still on average double the price they were five years ago and Greater Vancouver homes are 70 per cent above October 2003 levels.”
“While blue skies and picturesque lakes certainly drew people to this valley, its postcard-perfection hasn’t been enough to stave off the effects of worldwide economic trouble. The first signs came when water-cooler talk changed from estimating real estate gains to lamenting losses in retirement plans and higher costs for just about everything.”
“And then came the more literal signs. For Sale boards started to pop up in front of houses and never left. Home owners and speculators who once bragged it only took a week or so to sell their houses or condos are now just boasting ‘reduced’ or ‘new price’ on their sale signs.”
“While economists were slow to acknowledge what most could surmise by a walk through their neighbourhoods, there are now significant rumblings of a slump in prices for houses this side of the border. Some are going so far as to call it a housing recession, as realtors and sellers are already well into contingency plans that will allow them to ride out the storm.”
“Ian Share, of the Century 21 office in Glenmore, has seen a sharp decline in sales, although he said he remains busy. The problem, as he sees it, is that sellers are having a hard time adjusting to the market. A house that may have flown off the market a year ago for a cool $500,000 isn’t going to have the same appeal today as buyers have far more to choose from and are taking their time.”
“While his focus is on North Glenmore, Lake Country and Phoenix, Arizona, he says only the latter market is seeing eager buyers. Share tapped into the Phoenix market successfully to pursue an opportunity he saw resulting from the U.S. financial crisis. ‘The conclusion you can start to draw is that the real estate market is adjusting and correcting massively and that the buyers that are willing to step up to the plate are few and far between,’ he said. ‘Generally they consist of investors picking up rental properties and other clients who are relocating here for work.’”
“Share was the listing agent on one of only two homes that sold in Lake Country (excluding Carrs Landing) last month—118 were listed. While the lack of sales may be disturbing, Share pointed out it’s actually the pricetag changes that are the most dramatic, citing the two Lake Country listing sales examples.”
“‘One was originally listed for $549,000 and sold for $400,000—that’s a difference of $149,000,’ he said. ‘The other was originally listed for $449,000 and sold for $351,500—that’s a difference of $97,500.’”
“In the months leading to the dry spell, Share added only nine single family homes sold and the average price difference from the original list price to the sold price was $37,966, whereas this last month the average price difference was $123,250. ‘Even though we’re been reassured that our banking system is solid and that our economy is ticking along nicely…in my opinion we’re crazy to think that Canada is impervious to some sort of significant adjustment in our economy and in the real estate market,’ he said.”
“For contractor Robert Tissington, building, buying and selling homes has been a way of life for as long as he can remember. His first house—among several properties he owns and can’t currently sell—was purchased in Kelowna’s North End a few years ago for about $200,000. He added a carriage house to it for about $130,000 and got ready to move into another place.”
“When he listed his property with a real estate agent, he was told to list somewhere in the area of $700,000, which he thought to be quite high, but competitive. It didn’t move. His price dropped by nearly 10 per cent and it still didn’t move. With that, he decided to take it off the market. ‘A year ago I thought selling it for about $550,000 would have been brilliant, but it’s the type of property you hang onto,’ he said. ”
“His property is a good rental—a market that’s not shrinking—and will continue to earn as the real estate market fluctuates. In the meantime, he didn’t see the point of putting his life on hold waiting for the property to sell. ‘The amount of tire kickers you have to go through—the people who want to see all the houses, but aren’t prepared to buy, even if they think they are—just aren’t worth it,’ he said.”
“He’s comfortable with the idea of riding out the changes in the meantime, and as a contractor thinks he sees a lot of opportunity in the current market—if not to sell, to buy. Tissington said that the current market should have been expected, as Kelowna functions on a six-year cycle. ‘Prices peak and everybody lists when they sense it’s the end of cycle and then there’s a glut of houses on the market,’ he said. ‘The last one was in 2001, and before that in 1993-94.’”
“When he bought his house for $212,000, that seemed like an incredible amount of money for an old house, but he pointed out it was worth the investment. ‘This whole economic situation is running alongside what may have been a natural price adjustment anyway,’ he said.”
‘As a result, the mortgage payment on the median-priced condominium is now just 35 percent higher than the average rent in King County,’ Dupre + Scott said. ‘That’s still a wide gap, but it’s half what it was a year ago.’
It’s long been my contention that if a landlord is running negative cash flow, or even breakeven, that person is a speculator. Also, if a person could rent for less, but buys, he’s a speculator, in my book. And speculators run from the exits when prices even just flatten out. Remember, speculators are the buyers and the builders as well.
As for Seattle and Vancouver’s amazement that prices could actually fall, well those are my favorite HBB moments. Nobody is immune to the laws of supply, demand and affordability constraints. Nor to the vicious nature of speculative bubbles.
I was asked by Calgarys Swerve Magazine in 2007 if the resources boom would protect the housing market. I replied that the 70s and 80s oil boom in Texas had merely made the RE market that much more ripe for collapse:
‘More bad economic news — a further slowdown in housing construction, falling factory shipments, and a shrinking trade surplus — likely await Canadians in the coming week. ‘The Canadian housing market boom is over, and our forecast is for leaner times ahead,’ said Millan Mulraine, analyst with TD Securities. ‘Canadian housing activity should continue to cool, though the moderation in activity is expected to be both measured and orderly.’
‘On the sales front, a report expected this coming Friday from the Canadian Real Estate Association is expected to show further weakness as well. ‘Early returns from the largest cities were ugly,’ noted Douglas Porter, economist at BMO Capital Markets.’
‘Meanwhile, Porter projects that the slump in commodity prices plus the weak U.S. economy will weigh on Canada’s merchandise trade surplus. ‘Commodity prices fell further and U.S. spending weakened meaningfully in September, a nasty combination for Canadian exporters,’ said Porter.’
‘He projected that the surplus shrank by more than $1 billion in September to $4.7 billion. That’s still large enough to offset the chronic deficit in services trade and to keep Canada in the black in its overall dealings with the rest of the world, Porter noted.’
‘However, we look for merchandise trade to deteriorate much more deeply in the coming months, amid the sharper slowdown in U.S. spending and the further drop in resource prices,’ he added. CIBC World Markets projected the weakening U.S. economy also acted as a further drag on Canadian factory shipments in September.’
I love Dupre + Scott’s other pearl of wisdom, too: “Do we need all these units? Yes. We just didn’t need them so soon.” Hmm, that seems to cover every single over-building situtation I can think of. A gang of do-gooders here on Maine coast is trying to build “affordable” housing that would rent out for $750/mo when the ads in the local paper show vacancies at $650/mo down to $375/mo for year-round occupancy. Duh, there are no jobs here in winter. Yawwwwwn.
Ms. Lender, how are you doing? I hope well. I have a sales rep from another company that I deal with. We are pretty good friends. He got divorced last year. During the process he moved his entire 401k into cash, so that it could be divided. I spoke to him last winter and spring. I suggested that he sell his house in Maine and rent. I also told him to leave his 401k in cash.
Well, guess what? He didn’t sell and he put his 401k into the market in May. A buddy told him, “what are you waiting for. You need to get into the market.” His 401k is probably down 30% or more in 6 months. And I can’t imagine his house is gaining in value, even though “it’s commutable to New York”. What? Good people are making stupid decisions all around us. Just think what the tools in government will do. I shudder.
“For speculative investors, however, the drop in prices is lethal. Until last year, speculative demand begat rising prices, which begat new projects, which begat a new round of speculative buying, a lovely spree of what looked to be risk-free profits. Then came price stagnation.”
“The evaporation of double-digit price gains, and much higher debt-leveraged returns on investment, has killed off the class of buyers looking to flip condos. ‘Speculators have entirely left the market,’ says Jennifer Podmore Russell, managing director of a real estate consultancy based in Vancouver.”
My Boss, who has been involved in purchasing commercial and residential real estate in the last couple of years, convinced several of his managers to “get in on the ground floor” to buy some condos while they were being constructed in the Lower Mainland, outside of Vancouver.
About a month or two ago, the building burnt to the ground, while it was approaching completion, and is now being rebuilt (unfortunately for them). One of the Managers managed to unload his unit for about a 10k loss. …needless to say, he is one of the lucky ones, as not much of anything is selling around here now.
Quattro?
No, this one is in Abbotsford…but it’s the same story.
“Also, if a person could rent for less, but buys, he’s a speculator, in my book.”
Speaking from someone in that situation - I generally disagree, at least with this being a blanket statement. Reasons being:
- Many people (such as myself) like to work on their homes to make improvements - landscape improvements, decks, painting, lighting, etc. etc. While theoretically you could do these things if you rent, it’s much less worthwhile since you don’t recoup any gains at all when you move out.
- Assuming you don’t have an I/O loan, then those who are paying mortgage are at least building some equity, especially if they stay in their house for a long time. Long term when the loan is paid off then an owner has a paid-for house; a renter does not.
- Renters are at the mercy of landlords. If the landlord decides to sell or is foreclosed, the renter may be forced to move. This is not true for mortgagers.
Not trying to badmouth renters. I’m just saying that a straight cost vs. cost comparison isn’t that clearcut.
This is especially true if you only compare monthly costs - there are other factors that play into the long-term cost comparisons beyond the monthly costs. In my case actually one factor that’s never mentioned is the opportunity costs of the sale of a previous house - I took advantage of the 500k tax deduction on equity gains - if I had rented (for over 2 years at least), I would have lost this deduction, and would have taken about a $100k tax hit.
There are always exceptions, like the tax exchange. But how many recent buys have already lost $100k? Another group that isn’t speculating is someone buying their last house. For this group, the true intent is not to gamble that prices will increase.
But I suggest that the massive inventory out there and the record number of FBs shows that the vast majority were speculating. They obviously would have been better off renting and now regret it.
Agree that the vast majority were, though not nearly so much as those buying second houses of course. I guess to a great extent the definition of “speculation” is in the eye of the beholder too. Heck when you buy a CD you’re speculating to some extent that inflation won’t go through the roof before the CD expires, that the bank won’t go belly up, etc.
In my case - I have indeed lost a significant amount of equity - somewhere on the order of $100k in fact. In hindsight, financially at least I probably would have been slightly better off renting for a while after I sold my last house. Most people though that knew we were in a bubble - even many on this HBB - didn’t anticipate the crash coming *this* fast and hard. I knew prices would come down at least some - I told my wife probably 20% in the long run, because I figured the declines would be slower and would eventually be offset by inflation coming up to meet them. Well, prices are now down about 25% in my area and still falling fast. So I did indeed underestimate the extent of the crash.
Does that make me a speculator? Perhaps. I don’t consider myself as such.
Do I regret my decision? Not really. We’ve really settled in, and I’ve done a lot of work on the house, etc.
Knowing what I know now - that prices would come down as far and as fast as they have, and look like they will - would I have decided otherwise - to rent for a while? Probably.
Dang Pack - 1050 x 24 = $25,200.00.
(rent x two years).
Uggggh! We want a home!
Yeah, saved a few buckaroos, but frack that - we want a home. Why?
We have our health, family, friends - and live in G-d’s country!
I must lock loving hubby in the closet, (only for a day or so), for he will spend wildly!
Compromise…
If we don’t purchase a house soon, the closet door will burst and I’ll be locked in a chamber! Har!
Thirty acre, appox 2800 sq ft above ground, w/woods, nice outbuildings (man caves), ag land, ok taxes, close yet hidden.
I’m on the ledge!
Oh, offer - 299,900.
(Hubby’s hair on fire. His offer $349,900 - not without my signature! Har)
I love him so!
Leigh
P.S. This is where someone reminds me to tie up hubby.
Ben, I truly don’t understand how if someone buys something that has a current positive cash flow is not also speculating. Investments go up and down in value, accidents happen, etc…and there are no guarantees in life that what seems like a sure winner today won’t be hemmorhaging money tomorrow.
IMO, speculators only care about whether they get a positive cash flow at some point in the future for a small investment now. Anyone who buys insurance, has a retirement plan, gets plastic surgery, or has any hobby from numismatics to buying art meets the definition of a speculator.
Nothing is wrong with speculating, as long as you are an adult who can afford the risks, instead of trying to pass your losses on to someone else.
Anyone who buys cars, sporting gear, pets, computers and other consumer electronics, goes on vacations, etc is according to many financial advisors, “throwing away money” on an investment that promises no financial dividend. The dividend is psychological or practical (depending on circumstances), and that counts for something IMO. I have a hard time thinking that despite the recent mass mania, buying real estate doesn’t fall into the same category of providing a dividend that isn’t always financial.
I agree with you. Renting will always be cheaper than buying. The advantage of buying is that you have stable monthly payments (unless you have an ARM). You build equity. You can make renovations. You have a more stable place of residence.
Some of the advantages of renting are that you have no maintenance headaches. You don’t have to pay for expensive repairs. You are more mobile in case of job changes.
How much of a premium is it worth to own? That depends on the personal preference. I always enjoyed renting more because it saved me money and I had more free time.
‘Renting will always be cheaper than buying.’
When I was studying RE in college it wasn’t true, even with the inflated prices for land. (Our bubble in Texas was mostly in commercial property, but not entirely by any means). If you think about it, what you are saying is that landlords would always run negative cash flows on rental houses, unless they had purchased a long time ago. And in Merced, CA, for example, purchase prices are already getting close to break even.
When I was in school in Chicago, it wasn’t true either. It was significantly cheaper to buy.
My wiser dad offered to front me the money too. I just didn’t want to be bothered with the hassle (and no, I do not regret this decision.)
jerry, if you look at historical price-to-rent curves, you will see that is definitely NOT always cheaper than buying.
There are long half-decade periods when it is definitely cheaper to buy. There is a strong equilibrium relationship between the two, and it oscillates back and forth between periods when each one is cheaper than the other.
FPSS -
Depends on what areas of Chicago you are domiciled. My rent in Ravenswood for a 2bd/2ba (900 sq. ft) was just $700/month. Fantastic close-in neighborhood, too. 4600 North/2800 West.
Now, if you’re a moron who just has to live in Lincoln Park, Wrigleyville, Boys Town, downtown….because you’re young and hip and cool and horribly insecure….then, yeah, you’re going to pay out the nose.
2 ba/2bd condos like the one I rented in Ravenswood from 2003 to mid-2008 would have sold for $225-$375K from 2003 onward.
My $700/mo. rent wouldn’t even come close to paying just the property taxes I’d have to fork over if I had borrowed the equivalent.
I spent 31 years of my life in Chicago and close-in suburbs. I know the place.
Illinois tax structure is highly punative toward those who actually own something (with the exception of a car).
Yeah, I know which nbd you’re talking about.
Rents in Ravenswood were always reasonable. I love that place.
“You are more mobile in case of job changes.”
This is a huge ADVANTAGE in these times. My job is a year to year contract so buying seems foolish at any time especially since no comparable jobs exists in the area.
BTW being completely debt-free and living below your means have never seemed to make more sense. Driving reliable, cheap used cars, having no CC debt and no mortgage makes you nimble and flexible.
I disagree, renting should actually price at a bit of premium to buying.
Renovations and stability are worth something to some people. However, I think many more people (if they really understood what they are doing) would rather have a maintenance free lifestyle, move when you want, no tax headaches, no insurance headaches (big issues in FL), and, of course, ultimate mobility.
Just like it’s more expensive to rent a car then to buy one, it should also be a bit more expensive to rent a house then to buy one. The only thing that doesn’t hold is the price appreciation that’s “promised” when buying a house. As we now see, that whole idea is mostly a myth, the price “appreciation” that people see in a home is, in a normal market, just inflation eating away at the loan amount.
Most people move every 7 years (IIRC) anyway, I’ve already been 2 in my current rental, and just signed for another 16 months. If you’re buying the home you intend to die in, yes, buying can make more sense (and if you have a stable job). However, many people (most below the age of 40) are probably better off renting.
I’ve owned 3 houses, and except for 2002, it was always cheaper to buy than to rent (in 2002 PITI broke even with rent). Back then, the phrase “throwing away your money on rent” held true. But, the key was that you had to come up with a sizeable downpayment and have a good credit record.
By 2002, the sizeable downpayment and good credit record was starting to go away. I remember seeing flyers at open houses for all sorts of crazy mortgage financing schemes that made me chuckle. What sad is, no matter how stupid they seemed at the time, they paled in comparison to what was going to happen a few years later.
Certainly not true in Detroit. Look it up.
we seem to have officially crashed. suddenly. now we have several construction pits/sites abandoned in the downtown area (I pass 3 on walking errands regularly): V6A, Olympic Village and Ritz Carlton are all suspended within the last month or so.
V6A continued to sell units after deciding to halt construction, and are under investigation.
Olympic Village is getting 100 million from the local government to finish.
Ritz Carlton, which was to have had suites from M $2.5 - M $10, and be the tallest (tied) building in the city, is just a big hole in the ground.
Yes, we are suddenly hearing a lot about it on the T.V. news these days … projects on hold etc. Now that houses aren’t selling & the stock market has crashed (and crashing some more, no doubt) it’s a revelation to people that were going to be in some serious problems. A couple of months ago few people around here believed it would happen here….especially with all the Olympic hype around Vancouver.
Skiing and snowboarding are really great sports, one of the few where all age groups can play at the same time, but…
It’s really expensive.
We have season passes to Sierra Summit (a great old-school no frills 60’s Ca. style resort-above Fresno) and when we figure in our gas, food and lodging on a 3 day foray, it’s quite costy-even getting a good deal ($240) on the passes.
Buying a daily pass is around $50, so the average Joe the Skier is out probably another $100 in food-gas-lodging.
Thats $150 out of pocket to go out and play, if driving. If flying-add a couple hundred to the total, or more.
I expect a good many ski resort to fail not from a lack of snow, but a lack of dough.
Looks like they need that much hated “cash”.
Sorry, man, it’s just too hard to resist sometimes.
money isn’t everything.
True, true, it just buys you everything.
‘money isn’t everything’
I was merely predicting the future, not the past.
‘True, true, it just buys you everything.’
Hahahahaha. Thanks.
Tell THAT to somebody that doesn’t HAVE any money…I’m sure that will be quite a comfort
If we get a a lot of snow in the Sierra this winter, nearly all those ski areas will do just fine.
It’s winter 2008-09 and 2009-10 they really have to worry about…
Dang Alad,
Checked prices for military -
Cheaper where you are…
Love Arapahoe! (sp?) And Devil’s Bowl - ah.
Good for you and yours!
Leigh
‘Now Seattle’s getting their butt kicked, too,’ she said.”
Wheeeee! Please, sir, more…?
Ahhhhh. *satisfied sigh* I guess it’s NOT different here. You know what, we just may get out of this with a couple of forests and wetlands intact.
Oh, wouldn’t that be just dreamy? Yes, it would.
Unfortunately, here in Pullman, WA (Idaho border) much of the damage has been done. We now have SEVEN empty subdivisions, with one more on the way. The earth has been moved, streets paved and utilities installed. There is no way to reverse this destruction, and it will be decades before these are built out (given the pending budget cuts at WSU, Pullman will probably be contracting for some time).
The real kicker is that all of these subdivisions have oppresive covenants requiring large houses, standard (inefficient) construction, and strictly single-family residences with lawns.
Agreed, Olygal. It will be nice to see the rampant over-development get squelched for a long while. I’m cheering for the natural spaces that will be preserved for a bit longer.
“It was a good time to buy, he said, and didn’t worry about the prospect of prices going down more after he bought. ‘If you continually look over your shoulder, you’re not going to be happy,’ he said.”
If, on the other hand, you refuse to ever look over your shoulder, you might miss the wild-eyed Bigfoot sneaking up behind you with a hatchet and a salt shaker.
And then you likely won’t be happy THEN, either.
How about we all agree that sometimes it’s a good idea to look over your shoulder, just for a bit, now and then.
God forbid we actually learn from our mistakes.
Or from somebody else’s.
When I was up seventeen percent
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for granite counter tops
And Home Depot summer projects
Wed hide from the IRS
Next to the putting green
When I was up seventeen percent
When I was up twenty-one percent
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for HELOCs
Wed re re finance those loans
With all those teaser rates
And the wifey wouldn’t fake
When I was up twenty-one percent
When I was up thirty-five percent
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for blue swimming pools
Of jacouzi whirlpool investments
Wed speculate in limousine fleets
The chauffeurs would pimp out their rims
When I was up thirty-five percent
But now the credit grows short
Im in the autumn of the bust
And now I think of my life as vintage Japanese antiques
50″ flat screen tvs
Plenty of bird feed
And I walked away
It was a very good year
It was a bubble of good years!
Nice. Thanks
Sniff -
Kerchiff -
Leigh
Seattle? The Seahawks suck and the Sonics left town for……drum roll please…..Oklahoma City. Detlepf Schrempf is rolling over in his grave. Bwahaha. Put that in your coffee and smoke it.
Isn’t it interesting the different times in which markets tanked?
Canada lasted a lot longer than it would, based upon what was happening down under them…
My 92 year old aunt was waiting for just the right time to sell her unremarkable house in Calgary for $500k, and did so about this time last year, back when she was a spry 91 year old.
Timing.
No wonder some people love Alan Greenspan.
“‘I was paying rent for something that wasn’t mine,’ Fowler said about his time as a renter.”
Um? As it has been pointed out time and time again, unless you paid cash in full, aren’t ‘you’ just renting from the Bank anyway?
Don’t confuse the issue with common sense. You just confuse the FBs.
Yep, renting from the bank and from the state/county (property taxes). The latter is true even if you paid cash in full. I literally know a guy whose property was so desirable (lake-front in Seattle) that his property taxes alone went up to 3X my mortgage payment, and he had to sell because he could not afford to rent his own house from the gov’t.
“‘I was paying rent for something that wasn’t mine,’ Fowler said about his time as a renter.”
And now you’re paying interest (probably far more) for something that still isn’t yours.
Nicely put, primey.
Whether you pay rent to the gubmint, your cute little ol’ landlady, or the bank, you are still not living anywhere for free.
The only place that you can make the claim of free rent is Mommy’s basement, which once you factor in the psychological costs, might be a fate worse than death for some people.
There is no such thing as a free lunch…unless you are a Wall Street bank that is “too big to fail”.
“holding off on his own planned purchase of a second home in Boulder, Colo., because prices were still too high”
Good luck with that [waiting for lower prices].
Very few houses are being or have been built in Boulder recently. The city decided a number of years (10+) to “raise the drawbridge” and dramatically restrict the number of building permits. Everyone wants to live in Boulder and everyone there doesn’t want any more people moving into the city.
Boulder is not Firestone, CO.
Yeah right. Real estate always goes up in Boulder huh?
You know what I think about, the absolutely very first thing that comes to mind when I hear the words ‘Boulder, Colorado’? Is Stephen King’s book ‘The Stand’. Everyone goes to Boulder after the superflu kills most of the population. I mean the good–or relatively good–guys go there. Those seduced by the Dark Side go to Las Vegas.
Of course.
What I remember is that they moved into Boulder without paying a dime (homes were empty).
lol
This downside has a long time to go.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
The Stand. One of my favorites my Mr. King.
I don’t want to live in Boulder.
As I have said repeatedly…
The elitists of Boulder have theirs….so screw everyone else.
Are they all employees and retirees of Wall Street? Could it be?
Nah…Boulderites are environmentalists. Which of course justifies their unbridled, self-satisfied elitism. And keeping all the wealth for themselves.
“Good luck with that [waiting for lower prices].
Very few houses are being or have been built in Boulder recently. The city decided a number of years (10+) to “raise the drawbridge” and dramatically restrict the number of building permits. Everyone wants to live in Boulder and everyone there doesn’t want any more people moving into the city.”
Hahahahahaha! You guys, we’ve got a live one! I can’t believe that he actually said the words! Real estate only goes up, and everyone wants to live here. Hysterical!
We got a troll?!?
Hot-diggity-damn, halleluia, glory be! We haven’t had one in such a long time my verbal muscles were not getting enough exercise.
Let’s revisit the arguments:
It’s special here. NO.
The boomers are coming. BANKRUPT.
The Chindians/Europeans are coming. To Boulder? Why?
Only goes up. Please! record collapses.
Raise the “drawbridge”? That’s a new one!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Careful….Boulder folks are liberal elitists and proud of it.
If this poster IS a troll (and we don’t know that he/she is a troll), then perhaps what you should ask is why he or she hasn’t given away their considerable wealth to help those less fortunate.
A liberal elitist living in a $1.5M manse - enjoying the high life - and yet denying others the same opportunity - is an entirely different kind of troll than those erudite specuvestors who have ransacked California, Nevada, Arizona and Florida.
THIS troll is the sort of troll that is commonplace in Seattle, San Francisco, New York and other wealthy urban enclaves. You know the type. They live in $1M + residences, give little time or money to charity, get manicures and pedicures regulary, and feed their labradoodles pate - all whilst complaining incessantly about the greed and selfishness of Wall Streeters and corporate USA.
They relieve this guilt by blathering on and on about carbon credits until they are blue in the face. They talk as if some factory worker who works 60 hours a week to make $40K a year actually gives a shit about carbon credits. Talk about a disconnect of perceived priorities!
Well-heeled folks such as this have to invent something to get all worked up about because they don’t know what to do with all their excess. They’ve already been to Beaver Creek six times this year - and it’s beginning to get boring!
I’ve an idea for bored elitist snobs - how about giving CASH away directly to those who are in need? Instead of whining about Wall Street greed, maybe you should obsess about your own greed instead. Go find some street bums and hand them $100 bills directly out of YOUR wallet!
It’ll make you feel better. And act as a micro-level stimulus package.
How do you know I’m not a liberal elitist snob?
I live in NYC too, kiddo!
Despite your apparent fondness for decent food and drink — make mine medium and keep the food hot in temperature, please…cold or room temperature food is a travesty, unless it’s originally culinated to be that way — I don’t believe you’d deny others the same sort of success you’ve had thus far, FPSS.
In fact, I’d be willing to bet that your attitude is The More the Merrier.
The typical Boulder/Coastal elitist is the opposite. In their heart of hearts, they really don’t want others to achieve the same level of prosperity they have, despite all the talk. It’s why they strive to keep people OUT, much in the same way that yesterday’s exclusive golf clubs kept out black people. They don’t want others to have what they have. It’s really that simple.
Shocking, I know. FPSS, I hope that observation isn’t lost on you. If so, then you are likely a liberal elitist yourself.
It’s why the typical liberal elitist often exhibits intellectual bias in everyday conversation/online chatter. Have you not noticed their total unwillingness to consider the viewpoints of others? They don’t WANT to deal with something or someone who is not like them. In response, the modus operandi is to shout down all opposing ideas.
Ask a suspected New York elitist what the phrase, “n’oblesse oblige” means. He or she is not likely to know what that means. Fewer still will act on it.
Need proof? Statistics. Statistics clearly inform us that wealthy urbanites give away very little money.
Oops! I just busted some people’s chops on this board. Oh, well.
My attitude is life is indeed The More the Merrier™ (as long as they all bring good beer, wine, whisky, etc. and chat into the night.)
What bores me is uninformed opinions. I’ll eat and drink and chat with everyone about everything from pig farming to high finance. But I need to be surrounded by people who know what they are talking about, and are amenable to chatting intellectually not dogmatically.
If you’re wrong and I’m an expert, I eat you for lunch.
Hence, the HBB.
“A liberal elitist living in a $1.5M manse - enjoying the high life - and yet denying others the same opportunity…”
*****
SF?
Marin?
Berkeley?
Or all three?
FPSS:
“What bores me is uninformed opinions. I’ll eat and drink and chat with everyone about everything from pig farming to high finance.”
Yeah - and this is one of the qualities that make you an interesting individual. And increasingly intelligent, especially if you maintain your willingess to talk with kings and street bums alike.
Note that I’d join in more often in discussions of the financial markets, but I’m not nearly up to the speed that you and several others are here. I’ve the intellect, but not the background. Therefore, I tend keep my mouth shut here when it comes to derivatives, currency trading, etc., and read up.
Now, for a drastic aside - speaking of farming - did you know that overripe watermelons literally can explode on the vine? When I grew three dozen or so full-size watermelons in my backyard one summer (I have one heck of a green thumb), one of them exploded in the middle of the night. It woke me up; I thought it was a gunshot. For the next two days, I scrubbed watermelon seeds and nearly gelatinous sinew off the side of my brick house. That was a bitch as you can probably imagine.
sf Jack -
If the shoe fits….
I’ve never been in Marin, to Berkeley or San Francisco. However, a number of other places I have been to do fit the desciption. They are:
1. Suburban Washington, D.C.
2. the eastern two-thirds of Long Island
3. Raleigh/Cary/Chapel Hill, N.C., which are rapidly going elitist.
4. most of Portland, Oregon
5. Madison
6. north-north/central parts of Chicago.
7. Fort Collins/Boulder/ski communities in northern Colorado adjacent to the Divide.
8. Jackson Hole
9. Missoula
10. Hollywood
11. Miami (though less so recently as most of it will become a slum by 2012)
12. Butthead (region of Atlanta) and points immediately north. (Atlantans SO badly want to be Los Angeles).
13. Santa Fe
14. Seattle
The Chindians/Europeans are coming. To Boulder? Why?
Because Mork lives there. Duh, FPSS.
I don’t want to live in Boulder.
I think this is just a marketing tactic.
Your marketing may be good, but your economics is bad.
OK, not a troll. Just a guy who lives in Denver and has zero involvement in the real estate business.
Boulder IS a special case.
Not statistically significant, but a special case.
Let me repeat.
Lots of people want to live in [The People's Republic of] Boulder and they [builders] can’t build any houses in Boulder.
Very restricted supply and a fair amount of demand.
I did not say that prices will always go up. But, I don’t believe they will fall any significant amount as the SUPPLY is constrained.
Boulder has more perceived value because it made itself exclusive. Much like a golf course makes itself exclusive.
Exclusivity attracts liberal elitists like nothing else. Think “Harvard”. Think “Hollywood”. Think “Washington D.C. beltway” where 92 percent of the residents within the beltway voted for Obama.
Liberals ADORE exclusivity, love clubbiness, and work very hard to get into the right circles. Who you know means a great deal to them.
@Eudemon,
What do your comments have to do with housing prices in Boulder?
I am seeking some data here that links “liberal elitists” to stable or rising house prices?
I mean, greater Washington, DC has seen prices tumble. So has Boston and even San Francisco.
Boulder has a restriction on building, as you have noted. That’s why.
Boulder is hardly the only game in town. In Colorado, think Woodland Park, which clearly wants to move in the same direction. Fort Collins appears headed down the same road, too, though I’m less sure about that place. If I were in your shoes, I’d keep an eye on both places.
Jackson Hole is as exclusivity-happy as Boulder. Its problem is remoteness, not any lack of desire for exclusivity.
Numerous cities on the Florida coasts are the same way. Sanibel Island. Venice.
Definitely check the Cary/Chapel Hill area, too.
Who knows whether any of them can build/maintain the desired aura of exclusivity as Boulder. It’ll depend, I imagine, on the degree to which any given exclusive town can balance the need to soak the locals on property taxes against its skill in institutionalizing any perceived social advantages of living a snob-oriented lifestyle.
Thus far, I’ve not seen any studies/figures along such lines.
Here are some early homebuyer stats for October, Santa Clara County CA; and they are BAAAAAD.
http://scc.rereport.com/market_reports
median prices for oct, sep, oct 07 are
$553,000 $600,000 (-7.8%) $868,500 (-36.3%)
Volumes are way up though.
I can see the headline now, “Silicon Valley Real estate market begins recovery, Homesales up a whopping 40% over last year”
Greater Vancouver condos are very mall-like. They look like malls and they sound like something you buy at a mall: cute and fun, if a bit bland, when new. Looking worn-out by next season. They also have terrible names. Do American developments have really dumb names like this?
-pulse
-sugar
-quattro
-vibe
-cosmo
-nuovo
-stella
-argyle
-ginger
-coco
-brio
-solo
-lumen
-luxe
-W (their slogan was “be bold or move to suburbia”)
Some of these condos even went on people’s credit cards.
If anyone remembers the yuppie couple in Best in Show (the ones with the Weimeraner) who met when they saw each other through the windows of adjacent Starbucks and like to catalogue shop together as a weekend activity…
You can totally imagine them ordering products with all these names: goucho pants in coco (for her), and a lambswool V-neck in arygle (for him) at Banana Republic; a set of brio flatware from Williams-Sonoma, going out for espresso vibe martinis at pulse before driving home in their leased Volkswagen cosmo and relaxing on a retro leather luxe loveseat in a ginger finish (while watching HDTV on the flatscreen, of course).
For all you PNW-types, condohype had an interesting post relating to our local “clothing-optional” beach entitled “Pleasure Seekers with no Articulated Philosophy”
“http://condohype.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/pleasure-seekers-with-no-articulated-philosophy/
Talkin’ ‘Bout my Generation We were mall-ified by easy credit.
Mosaic…Setai…Aqua… Regalia… Jade… Epic… Akoya… Mei…
CHI (caps please!).
And for a slightly different clientele:
Murano Portofino Santa Maria Capri Lunamar
Grand Venetian.
Also, Emanuel would not commit to a Democratic proposal to help the auto industry with some of the $700 billion approved by Congress to for the financial bailout.
Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said in a letter Saturday to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson that the administration should consider expanding the bailout to include car companies.
Let’s include the phone, the hospitals, the airlines, the train, the oil, the eletric company, food companies, etc. Anyone else I missed, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Egypt, Horsebreath IA, Nancy?
Unbelievable, isn’t it? The bankster rescue was a travesty to begin with, what a can of worms it opened.
Although I should say, if any industries “deserved” a rescue, it should be productive industries, other than “financial services”. The “financial service” industry deserved to die an ugly death. More productive industries maybe should have gotten a rescue, with various provisions about modernization, energy efficiency, environmental improvements, etc. Wherever crucial jobs are at stake. I don’t consider crucial jobs to be in the banking industry, although I’m sure some would argue that point with me. JP Morgan got its share of the bankster rescue and POOF! they just shut down their Tampa operation in favor of offshoring to India and the Phillippines.
I’d hardly tag the US auto industry as being “productive”. Its lack of productivity is a chief component in its pending bankruptcy.
If the government acts as The Savior once again, all non-productive overhead should cease. That includes the hundreds of thousands of current and retired union bandits who are making out like bandits.
How do tens of thousands NON-PRODUCTIVE union workers represent crucial jobs? Their jobs aren’t any more crucial than a non-productive banker’s or a financier’s.
All are thieves.
ME!!! over here…me too!
Give me some too.
Dang if we are going to include all the industrys, first off lets take away TaxFree status to religious entities. Shoot they are all political now anyway. That would be one way to get some cash for the gov.
Check out this graph. It takes the Case Shiller numbers from several US bubble blowing cities and superimposes Vancouver’s evolution from the peak. Short answer: Vancouver is falling faster than even the bubbliest of US cities. Hold on to your hats, folks.
Hard to believe it has been four years since I first started visiting Ben’s shop here . . .
Nice graph, thank you.
It also helps explains a 1.5 year old quote from Schiller predicting a recovery in the Boston market that has always bothered me. At the time, I thought it was a certainly a misprint/misquote. I suppose he was talking to the temporary mid-term Boston uptick the graph shows.
Regarding the WaMu Employee losing money on stock ,I got a ear full a couple of weeks ago from a employee who was just about ready to retire . The women who lost money worked in the banking division of that Company and she didn’t have anything to do with what they were doing in the loan departments . I also recall a employee who tried to get me to buy that Company Stock about 8 months ago at around 8 bucks .
Anyway ,the employee told me that she had been counting on that money to retire with and she really needed it . I didn’t know what she was going to do now ,but she looked like she was up there in age . I did feel sorry for her because I don’t think she had a clue that this loss could happen to
her . In fact, I knew WaMu went insolvent and I went to the branch to take out a small account and the employees were not even aware that the News was announcing a FDIC assisted takeover . There is a lot of pain going on out there ,the kind that we use to predict and talk about on this blog years ago . Much more pain to come .
Sometimes I think that nothing constructive comes out of a lot of pain
and you usually end up with phobias . Nothing good came out of the
Great Depression and it was just a tolerance game until better times came about ,yet people did live lives ,but they didn’t look to happy in all those pictures of the Great Depression . I hope something constructive comes out of all this mess and pain ,and maybe the only thing will be the opportunity for a better foundation ,but that is a scary thought
also .
Attention: Pelosi and other government congress, etc personnel: Put your money where your mouth is. Donate all of your personal fortunes into the bailout fund. Are you willing to do? I know soon to be VP Biden said it was patriotic to pay taxes. Yet he gives $3000 out of his $3M he made? Donate 100% and then come to the rest of us for more tax money. This statement is non-partisan - applies to any party line.
VP Biden said it was patriotic to pay taxes
Perhaps, but what he probably meant was, it was patriotic for *you* to pay taxes. Is that better?