November 17, 2008

Greed And Naivete Collided In California

The Times Standard reports from California. “A new housing affordability index, released this month by the Humboldt Association of Realtors, shows Humboldt housing prices — recently overvalued countywide — have begun to dip. Fortuna showed the largest net increase in affordability, rising 19 percent between August and September of this year, and 26 percent between October 2007 and September 2008. In September, according to HAR data, 30 percent of households in Fortuna were able to purchase a home in Fortuna. That percentage is still significantly less than in April of 1999, however, when 60 percent of Fortuna households could afford a home in the city.”

“According to the index data, in September, the median sold home price in Humboldt County was $291,000. ‘Countywide, it’s not a staggering difference,” said Tom Hiller, president of HAR. ‘Each market is slightly different. We’re starting to see attractive deals throughout the county.’”

“Of course for sellers, the prospect of falling property values may not be as appealing. But Hiller said property values had been inflated to unrealistic highs, and the dip is a natural adjustment in the market. ‘In the short term, there’s been a reduction in equity,’ Hiller said. ‘But if people hang onto those homes, the prices will catch up with them.’”

“Thomas Bruner, an associate professor of economics at Humboldt State University, said he believes HAR’s findings are reasonable, and he expects affordability to continue trending in buyers’ favor through the winter. ‘I think January and February might be some of the best times historically, at least in the last 10 years, to buy,’ Bruner said. ‘If you have the money, this is the time to invest.’”

The Press Democrat. “Help is building to assist homeowners redo mortgages and avoid foreclosure, but questions remain about how far lenders will go as the toll of people losing homes mounts. Joan and Angela Ricci, a mother and daughter who own a Sonoma home, needed 14 months before their lender agreed to lower their monthly mortgage payment.”

“‘Everyday, I thought I was going to lose the house. I was a nervous wreck. Your life changes,’ said Joan Ricci. ‘We’ve been crying a lot.’”

“The problems for Joan Ricci began when she refinanced her home of 43 years in January 2007. Ricci was put into a subprime loan with a high interest rate — not the 30-year mortgage she expected — by an out-of-town mortgage broker who solicited her by phone. Daughter Angela Ricci stepped in, but couldn’t get the original lender, Argent Mortgage, to undo the loan. Citimortgage later purchased the mortgage.”

“They made the monthly payments, with Joan returning to work at age 70 and Angela taking on side jobs as a respiratory therapist. Family and friends also provided financial help. But by December, they could no longer afford the house payment. ‘We depleted every penny we had,’ Angela Ricci said.”

“The lender didn’t agree to specific terms until this month, lowering the interest rate to get the monthly payment from $4,600 down to $2,900. ‘It means we get to keep our home, which is what we wanted all along. But I have the burden of working everyday of my life to make the payment,’ Angela Ricci said.”

“Sandra and Octavio Lara weren’t as successful working with the lender on their Rohnert Park home. They defaulted on the loan and now their only hope to avoid foreclosure is to sell short, where a buyer pays less than what is owed on a home. The couple had an adjustable rate mortgage with Carrington Mortgage on their Rohnert Park home. The payments had risen from $3,000 to $5,100 when the couple stopped making the mortgage in October. The lender began talks over loan terms the end of December. Carrington Mortgage eventually agreed to lower the payment, but only by $800, leaving the family with a $4,300 monthly payment.”

“‘We asked them to lower the loan amount, if they were willing to finance it for what it was now worth. But they basically want their money,’ she said. ‘We couldn’t afford it anymore.’”

“Reducing loan balances to bring them closer to current home values could be an incentive for homeowners to struggle and make mortgage payments, said Kevin Stein, executive director for a San Francisco-based low income housing advocate. ‘If their debt is more in line with their home’s value, it reduces the number of people supposedly walking away from their homes,’ Stein said.”

The Sacramento Bee. “Sacramento County’s lowest-income neighborhoods continue to take the toughest, most destabilizing punches of the region’s two-year foreclosure crisis, says a new report from the Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency. And it’s getting worse.”

“‘Foreclosures are continuing to increase,’ said Joel Riphagen, SHRA redevelopment analyst. ‘The common denominator of the hardest-hit areas is they are low-income.’”

“Sacramento County has seen banks repossess 14,054 homes the first nine months of this year – 5,643 in July, August and September alone, according to MDA DataQuick. That’s 73.5 percent of the capital region’s total. SHRA, which doesn’t count homes bought at auction, showed 4,670 third-quarter foreclosures.”

“Investors are snapping up homes formerly occupied by owners with intent of renting them. More than one-third of Sacramento home sales in October were priced below $160,000. Three-fourths of county sales were of foreclosed homes repossessed by banks, the Sacramento Association of Realtors reported Friday.”

The Manteca Bulletin. “Closing schools to weather the deepening budget crisis is among 100 ideas being scrutinized by Manteca Unified. The double whammy of declining enrollment due to the foreclosure crisis coupled with the state’s mid-year deficit projection that has ballooned to $28 billion has opened the door to such a move.”

“Serious talk about closing schools is ironic considering Manteca Unified leaders are dedicating the $89 million Lathrop High campus today at 4 p.m.”

The Westside Connect. “With its enrollment continuing to dwindle and the uncertainty of how hard the state budget crisis will hit public education, the Gustine Unified School District has implemented a hiring and spending freeze. Superintendent Gail McWilliams said the district received a double dose of worrisome news recently.”

“The October count by which enrollment is measured for the state showed a decline of 140 students from last October, McWilliams said, a steeper drop than anticipated. ‘We had thought that the decline would be right around 100 students, but our enrollment dropped more than that,’ McWilliams said.”

“She attributes the exodus of students to the collapse of the housing market and tough economic times. ‘Our hope would be that as gas prices and housing prices fall that people start coming in, but we don’t have any indication of that happening at this time,’ the superintendent commented.”

The Voice of San Diego. “The town of Julian, an hour east of San Diego, is a destination for harried city-dwellers who escape on weekends. Named a couple of years ago by Sunset Magazine as one of 10 places in the western states to buy a cabin, the mountain town attracts second home buyers.”

“But three years after the San Diego County housing market reached its price peak, the number of second-home buyers — and buyers in general — has ceased to be buoyed by housing frenzy. Julian’s market closely tracks the county’s housing macro-trends of falling prices, increased foreclosures and weak sales compared to the boom.”

“Twenty-seven homes sold in the first nine months of 2008 in Julian’s 92036 ZIP code. That was half as many as sold in the same period in 2007. The decline in sales is even starker compared to the same nine months in 2005, when 78 homes sold, and 2004, with 89 sales, according to MDA DataQuick.”

“There are about 75 homes and lots on the market in Julian, of about 1,650 total homes in the 92036 ZIP code. Fifteen of those listings are bank-owned. Another 11 are in an earlier stage of foreclosure, according to public records. Many others are short sales. And the rest, if they want to sell, must price their homes close to the distressed property prices to compete.”

“That means homes that were selling in the high $300,000s now sell for about $250,000, said Dennis Frieden, the broker and owner of Julian Realty. One house that was originally listed for about $1 million a couple of years ago has now dropped in price to about $600,000.”

“On a few of the lots where homes burned in 2003, buyers tried their hand at building homes in order to sell them. But by the time they obtained the permits, and built and finished the houses, the market had peaked and fallen. Now there are four or five listed for less than the owners owe on their construction loans.”

“On a drive through Julian’s winding roads with a visitor, Frieden stops to point through the trees at a 3,000 square foot house that fits that description. Its builders bought the lot and built a house that they hoped and expected to sell for $1 million. Now Frieden estimates they could get $550,000.”

“He points out another, a large brown farm-style house that was foreclosed on in this downturn. Its previous owners had mortgages up $600,000 and contacted Frieden to sell it for $700,000. It ultimately went to foreclosure, and the buyer who lives there now paid $489,000.”

“Frieden’s own journey to Julian matches some common reasons for moving there. He ran a real estate agency and employed 65 agents in Mission Hills for a couple of decades before selling his office and moving east.”

“‘Everything was getting redundant,’ Frieden said of his former metropolitan life. ‘I sold the same houses three or four times.’”

The Union Tribune. “Greed and naivete collided on Little Lake Street in the fall of 2004. It produced easy money for speculators and mortgage brokers and short-lived happiness for families who bought houses they couldn’t afford to keep. Few streets in the county have witnessed as dramatic a turnaround as Little Lake.”

“Prices on one block peaked in 2005, a few months after homes hit the market. Since then, 13 of the 23 houses – 57 percent – have fallen into fore-closure. Subprime loans were rampant in the census tract surrounding Little Lake Street. Of the 3,600 loans sold in that tract in the past three years, more than 1,000 were subprime.”

“But the problem wasn’t confined to subprime mortgages. Many home buyers gorged on easy credit. About 12 percent of foreclosed properties likely belonged to investors who walked away from at least two houses in the past three years, the Union-Tribune found.”

“During the overheated market, thousands swarmed the South Bay and took out risky mortgages. ‘All people did it,’ said JesÚs Muñoz, a construction worker who lost his Little Lake Street house in March. ‘They were investing and selling. If other people can do it, why not me?’”

“Many buyers on Little Lake Street, including Terry Louise Washington, said they were bombarded with messages from family, friends and co-workers to invest in property before theprices climbed out of reach. Washington, a community college instructor, heard that message repeatedly at church and even by a speaker at her high school reunion.”

“‘I thought I did the right thing’ in buying the house as an investment, said Washington, who used an inheritance from her grandmother for her $118,000 down payment. ‘People told me it’s the way to make it in life.’”

Philip and Perlita Bautista bought eight houses in the past five years, mostly in southeast San Diego, Otay Mesa and Chula Vista, according to county deeds. Because some had adjustable and negative-amortizing mortgages, it didn’t take long for the couple to fall behind in their payments. ‘The payment is increasing and the bank is squeezing,’ said Philip Bautista, who works as an electrician. ‘It’s pretty horrible. Ten years we worked. All the money we saved, it’s gone.’”

“In addition to his Little Lake house, which was rented out, Bautista said he has lost ‘two or three’ others. He walked away from the Little Lake house when his mortgage payments adjusted upward, and his loans surpassed what the house was worth. In his eyes, he already had paid the bank considerable money — $28,000 down and two years of mortgage payments.”

“‘That’s a lot of money. The bank already has that money,’ Bautista said. ‘Now that the house is only worth $300,000, are you still going to pay?’”

“County records show Bautista refinanced his original mortgage and recovered his down payment 17 months after his purchase.”

“Longtime community members say the South Bay’s housing bust has been a deflating experience, prompting many to work multiple jobs and placing strains on marriages. ‘People are just trying to hang on,’ said Aguirre, the National City community development specialist. ‘It used to be Hummer City. Now it’s Toyota Tercel Town.’”

“Maria Alvarez made decisions to minimize her losses. Alvarez bought her house on Little Lake Street as an investment property with a 20 percent down payment. Six months after buying the house, Alvarez refinanced and took out a $95,000 line-of-credit, according to county records. ‘We put $100,000 down. We didn’t want to lose that,’ said Alvarez, who defaulted on another house in May. ‘A lot of people are losing their down payments. Now they don’t have anything. My husband and I put it into our business. We survived with that money.’”

“Like Alvarez, several people who pulled equity out of their Little Lake properties say they spent it on business expenses or mortgage payments. Only when prodded, and in one case reminded, did they acknowledge using the money to buy a timeshare, new cars and jewelry. The most common response to the question of how the money was spent was: ‘To pay bills.’ Many could not remember what those bills were for.”

“Bankruptcy specialists say…lenders set themselves up for problems by not requiring buyers to prove they could afford the loans, or to provide traditional down payments. That stripped buyers of a tangible incentive to stay in their homes. The stigma of foreclosure and damaged credit are real, but temporary.”

“‘Twenty years ago, individuals were doing everything in their power to save their houses,’ said Radmila Fulton, a bankruptcy attorney. ‘Now they’re more willing to walk away. Why pay now when they can rent for less than their mortgage payment?’”




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108 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-17 15:04:20

‘In the short term, there’s been a reduction in equity,’ Hiller said. ‘But if people hang onto those homes, the prices will catch up with them.’

Keep feeding the bears UHS.

‘We asked them to lower the loan amount, if they were willing to finance it for what it was now worth. But they basically want their money,’ she said.’

Yeah, imagine that.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 15:24:14

First greed and naivete collide; then the posterior and the JT collide.

No guesses for which one wins.

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-17 15:27:59

‘No guesses for which one wins.’

The merry popcorn-gobbling audience?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 15:50:26

I was going for the whiskey-version but why not?

I love popcorn too.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-17 16:05:09

Let’s have both, and call it good.

Also, you know what, I’m thinking of making a special hat to wear just for when I read these sad tales of woe. I’ll just reach over and clap it onto my head. There could be a cute little pocket for popcorn, another to hold the whiskey flask, and –this is the best thing–there could be a tag hanging down that I would yank on and up would pop a laminated card reading ‘BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!’ Huh? Huh? Genious, man!
It would save me time. ‘Course, then I’d be busy all the time pulling it, and I’d get carpal tunnel syndrome.

Oh! And a little beanie propeller whizzing around merrily on the top! I like those. They go good with everything.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-17 16:46:37

I agree, OlyGal—-popcorn and whiskey go great together. :-)

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-17 18:19:50

‘I agree, OlyGal—-popcorn and whiskey go great together.’

We have good taste, clearly.
You know what, there should be a PNW HBB meet-up one of these days. That’d be great.

 
 
 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-17 16:24:21

‘It’s pretty horrible. Ten years we worked. All the money we saved, it’s gone.’”

And deservedly so. Talk about canidates for a collision with the JT! Ten years of hard work thrown away at the altar of stupidity and we’re supposed to feel sorry for you? Get outta my grill you worthless POS.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 16:48:21

I’d like to string that guy up and beat him up like a pinata.

This comment, in particular, sent me through the roof:
“‘That’s a lot of money. The bank already has that money,’ Bautista said. ‘Now that the house is only worth $300,000, are you still going to pay?’”

You agreed to pay on a contract signed by you, numbnuts! The bank is entitled to the money that you contracted for!

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 16:55:27

Also, he looks like a tool with this coming to light:

“County records show Bautista refinanced his original mortgage and recovered his down payment 17 months after his purchase.”

So he’s got essentially none of his own skin in the house.

“All the money we saved, it’s gone.”
Really? Cuz it says right here you got it back, Philip.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 16:55:35

Actually, I beg to differ.

The contract runs both ways. They can always return the collateral.

And it would serve the bank right too so that they’ll learn not to do m*ronic things next time.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 17:02:30

Then why’s he complaining? That’s my problem with the situation. Either pay or don’t, but don’t whine that your money’s gone.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 17:29:41

‘Cause he’s an FB and that’s what FB’s do.

Everyone squeals when the JT goes in.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 17:32:54

LOL! True dat!

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:15:14

Why does he think the bank already has the money? Maybe they should try to get it from the people who sold their house at the top of the market. Those are the people who have all this lost cash.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 18:21:15

Assuming they didn’t blow it too (which in this country is by no means a given.)

 
 
Comment by black swan
2008-11-17 17:20:38

This past week, we passed through the Arizona Joshua Tree Forest while travelling from Las Vegas to Phoenix. I’m pleased to tell you that there will be an adequate supply of healthy, prickly specimens for all the FBs out there.

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Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-17 16:12:36

“Carrington Mortgage eventually agreed to lower the payment, but only by $800″

Only $800 bucks? Since when is $800 bucks chump change? That about covers my rent.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:18:18

Yup, if $800/month doesn’t seem like a lot to you, then you probably never should have gotten a mortgage with a $3,000 to $5,100/mo payment.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-17 15:08:39

‘I think January and February might be some of the best times historically, at least in the last 10 years, to buy,’ Bruner said. ‘If you have the money, this is the time to invest.’

It won’t be the time to buy until nobody says it is a good time to invest.

Comment by Chucky
2008-11-17 15:16:57

Too bad these folks can’t fast forward 10 years!!

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-17 15:23:45

The world’s biggest IF:

“If you have the money,”

Them that does have nothing but time, them that don’t are evidently magnets for lazy journalists.

 
 
Comment by Deflationary Jane
2008-11-17 15:13:17

Reporting from Sacramento: Yep, investors are buying but once they make the repairs - nothing cash flows and that’s if you can maintain a 0% vacancy rate and get your cash-strapped renters to pay. Rents are trending down here big time and that will just make it worse.

But it sure is fun to watch these folks run around for a few months thinking they are king of the hill. Almost as much fun as watching their faces when they realize they they are bleeding money despite all their “investing genius” >; )

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-17 16:32:47

I hear ya, DJ. Same going down here. I swear no one knows how to use a pencil anymore. But it was inevitable. I knew once the first big drops were in place a whole new breed of fools would emerge. Let ‘em have it, and continue to watch the show. More wealth will be lost in the next 12 months than we’ll see again in our lifetimes.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-17 16:51:44

Remember, we NEED these transactions (uh, I mean, fools) to aid in price-discovery on the way down.

Speculators help the market find price equilibrium, and actually at this point they each help aid price-discoverTHREE times: once when the buy (at supposed discounts), once when their foreclosure is sold to the bank at the trustees sale (usually at 80% of the earlier supposed discounted sale price), and once when the bank finally unloads the POS (at current market).

Of course, that takes quite a bit of time… Patience and popcorn are necessary to fully appreciate them. :-)

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-17 19:29:48

Speculators provide useful information about how quickly prices are crashing to earth.

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-11-17 17:57:41

D Jane,

Are you and your family still in St. Louis?

Comment by Deflationary Jane
2008-11-17 18:08:56

Sort of -
I am here, he is there >; (

I loved STL - loved loved loved it.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-11-17 20:13:01

Oh, I’m sorry to hear about it. Are you back in Davis?

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Comment by sm_landlord
2008-11-17 15:14:51

“Six months after buying the house, Alvarez refinanced and took out a $95,000 line-of-credit, according to county records. ‘We put $100,000 down. We didn’t want to lose that,’ said Alvarez, who defaulted on another house in May.”

Maria, honey, you lost it. It’s gone. But now you have a $95,000 debt. And it sounds like you have already spent that money as well, so it’s gone too.

Too bad they closed the mental hospitals in the California, because people like this need adult supervision and some meds on drip infusion. More batteries for the Matrix.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-17 15:26:48

“More batteries for the Matrix.”

Exactly.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:22:18

She hasn’t lost it because she’s not going to pay it back. She is a victim.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-17 15:18:04

“Closing schools to weather the deepening budget crisis is among 100 ideas being scrutinized by Manteca Unified. The double whammy of declining enrollment due to the foreclosure crisis coupled with the state’s mid-year deficit projection that has ballooned to $28 billion has opened the door to such a move.”

“Serious talk about closing schools is ironic considering Manteca Unified leaders are dedicating the $89 million Lathrop High campus today at 4 p.m.”
===================================================

Mark to Manteca

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-17 16:52:50

“Mark to Manteca”

DEEEEEE-lightful! :-) :-)

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-17 15:26:42

“They made the monthly payments, with Joan returning to work at age 70 and Angela taking on side jobs as a respiratory therapist.’

What the heckfire’s a ‘respiratory therapist’? Like assisting mouth-breathers to…breathe through their mouths? Like that? ‘Okay, open your nostrils and allow sweet life-giving oxygen to enter your stupid head…’ Like that?
I already know how to breathe. And you know what, I am tired of hearing how people got coerced into ARMS when they ‘really’ wanted a 30 year fixed. My mortgage is with Countrywide and the assh*t broker did everything he could to get me into an ARM. I had to get quite firm and use little simple words to articulate my decision.
I don’t know, though. Perhaps they were busy focusing on breathing— in and out, in and out, regular like– and didn’t pay enough attention, in which case I feel sympathy.
Oh, wait. No, I don’t.

Hey, you guys wanna hear my Godfather imitation? I’ve been working on it all afternoon, instead of working. The scene where Don Corleone listens to Bonasera complain about his ruined daughter. ‘What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully?…’
I normally have round green simple farm-girl eyes but I can make them go all hooded and serpentine and Godfathery for this.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-17 15:32:48

“…by an out-of-town mortgage broker who solicited her by phone.”

There’s the problem right there. To date I’ve yet to enter into any agreement, large or small, as the result of a phone call or mass mailing.

What’s the rest of this story? I’ll bet there were implied promises of boundless wealth in that phone call.

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-17 16:19:19

‘To date I’ve yet to enter into any agreement, large or small, as the result of a phone call or mass mailing.’

I did, once. Before you know it a giant Yeti appeared on my doorstep, offering a huge assortment of beauty products. Or else, I just thought of this, it could have been Jesus, having an extra big and bad hair day. Hmmm.
Boy, is He gonna be mad when I cancel my subscription for next month’s ‘Lipstick of the Season’ and end His commission checks.
Good thing I gave Him the wrong name. Maybe He’ll destroy someone else with lightning bolts out of His fingertips.
Meanwhile, I’ll be pretty wearing ‘Coral Sex-Goddess Sunset Mango’. That’s something, right? Right!

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 16:28:29

edge,

I’ll agree but only to the point that working by phone only better allowed these unregulated scumbags to leverage their time and work an ever greater number of “marks”.

She’d have gotten hosed if it had been some clown across town. They saw all that equity and just couldn’t keep their hands off it! I shudder to think what the fees were? Again I’m only guessing but just like that elderly East Bay couple, I’ll bet the daughter was egging her on every step of the way. SHE… has to go back to work? What was she doing before? Living off the Fat of the MEW?

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-17 16:54:54

In fact, having such a policy is a fantastic way to get OFF the phone when some mouth-breather calls. I particularly like stock-broker cold-calls.

I tell them that I have a policy of never doing business with any company that would cold-call me. They get the message and sign off quickly.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 17:08:36

Prime,

The big difference is that those guys are r-e-g-u-l-a-t-e-d. They can’t even go near “the G word” ( guaranteed! ) They also can’t play bait n’ switch when it comes to fees etc.

I’m certain that the final loan this poor old gal was slammed into in no way resembled what was originally discussed. The way they operated was unless you outright broke of the relationship, they worked on the assumption that “they had a deal”.

I can’t tell you how many stories I’ve heard of “investments gone bad” ( that start with someone they went to the same church with? )

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Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-11-17 21:45:39

“I tell them that I have a policy of never doing business with any company that would cold-call me. They get the message and sign off quickly.”

Exactly. My stock answer is: “I’m sorry, I just don’t do business over the phone WITH STRANGERS LIKE YOU”

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Comment by rms
2008-11-17 23:52:28

“I tell them that I have a policy of never doing business with any company that would cold-call me. They get the message and sign off quickly.”

Ever see the cold calling in Prime Gig with Ed Harris and Vince Vaughn?

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Comment by In Montana
2008-11-17 15:40:59

“Ricci was put into a subprime loan with a high interest rate — not the 30-year mortgage she expected”

I gotta ask, does old = stupid? I’m getting up there but I swear I would never refi, or if I did, it would be with the expectation that I’d take the money and run at some point. Or walk, slowly, with a walker thingie.

Comment by climber
2008-11-17 15:52:20

Nope, the smart old folks don’t make the papers. My friend’s dad was just telling me about buying a Condo in Vail Colorado. I don’t remember the exact years and dates, but the gist of it was he waited about 4 years and paid 1/2 the price he could have paid.

His advice to me was to keep cash in the bank and wait - house prices are likely going to go down for a while.

He’s in his 70’s and still likes to ski and hike in the mountains. The geniuses who run our newspapers obviously don’t want to hear what he has to say, he makes too much sense.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 15:56:38

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”

- Charles Mackay

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Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2008-11-18 09:33:19

““Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”

- Charles Mackay”

Damn straight. Samme assertion can be found in Le Bon’s book “The Crowd.”

DOC

 
 
 
Comment by michael
2008-11-18 09:34:03

and not one question as to what the poor little old lady did with the refinancing proceeds.

 
 
Comment by FP
2008-11-17 18:08:41

5k is a big payment for a refi. How much did she take out and where did it go. She refi’d on Jan2007. It’s Nov 2008. So she wasted away maybe approx 500k in a matter of 2years. If you think about it, if you earn 50K a year you would have to work 10 years to have earned 500K. So where is it?

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-17 15:26:50

We made our getaway from L.A. yesterday, and visibility was down to a few miles and ashes were falling constantly, so much so, that we decided to go with Plan B, getting out of dodge…

We took the 15 east to the 395 and drove north through Adelanto, a place I hadn’t been in perhaps 10 years.

The overbuild there shocked even me~

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 16:21:10

Went through there just in summer ‘07 and it was incredible. It’s really not within commuting distance to anywhere? Especially when gas was $4 plus. (Not that it makes sense now?)

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-17 16:39:24

But oh, isn’t it breathtaking. What a lovely patch of paradise!

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 16:48:05

Yeah, I think there was a Wendy’s and a Union 76 Truck Stop/Convenience Store. I was saddened to hear about Julian ( an hour east of S.D ) though? I remember being stationed there in the late 80’s and helped me immensely to know that someplace that detached from SoCal was SoClose!

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Comment by dude
2008-11-17 16:59:55

The west valley smells like campfire today, but the air quality isn’t nearly as bad as the Sesnon fire a few weeks ago.

The 5/14 interchange was no biggie on the drive down today.

 
Comment by buckwheat
2008-11-17 23:56:46

The existence of Adelanto puzzles even me. The only employer out there is the state prison.

 
 
Comment by Lisa
2008-11-17 15:36:44

“The problems for Joan Ricci began when she refinanced her home of 43 years in January 2007.”

Excuse me, shouldn’t that home have been paid off, like, 13 years ago??

So I’m guessing she did a cash out re-fi at the tender age of 70, and is now back to work to make payments on a 30-year loan. Unbelievable. She got herself in debt until the age of 100.

This story is right up there with the strawberry picker in the $700K house.

My parents never made a ton of money, but had a paid-for house by the time they were in their 50’s. And are now very comfortably retired.

Comment by climber
2008-11-17 15:48:38

If you think a house can be a bad deal just look at motor homes. My in-laws sold their house and all their rentals in the 80’s to buy a $250+k motor home (2x what a regular house cost at the time). Then they realized that maybe a fixed location house was going to be necessary someday. Now they have two loans. Guess which albatross is depreciating faster?

Seventy some years old and two mortgages. I just don’t get it.

Comment by Skroodle
2008-11-17 19:25:56

Motorhome sales, down 54% in June, 56% in July, 65% in August….I would guess its a tie!

 
 
 
Comment by catspit1
2008-11-17 15:43:32

Adelanto is indeed lovely if you like tan and brown and sand-colored things. You could’ve stayed on 15 North like me, and seen same thing all the way past Victorville. Cool new billboards now say, Rent a New Home for $995!

Lovely day at Grange supermotoing…

?? for conspiracists, pardon me if it’s already been discussed ad nauseum on BB: What percentage of gas-price decrease is result of last-gasp GOP election string-pulling?

Comment by dude
2008-11-17 17:02:44

0%?

It’s called demand destruction. Watch that chart closely, because it’s telling you where the economy will be 12 months from now.

You think you’ve seen pain thus far? We have yet to feel the pain.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-11-17 17:10:44

“What percentage of gas-price decrease is result of last-gasp GOP election string-pulling?”

Given their long history of desperate, lowest common denominator power grabs, I’d say 90%+.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-17 19:21:26

Not big into conspiracy theory.

Here’s why: all politicians, regardless of ideology want fuel prices to be low and steady. High energy prices, which translate into high food prices, are a sure fire way to make the mass unhappy and revolt against you. Falling prices are good, of course, but the constantly falling prices of late imply an unsteadiness in the market (ie, they can go back up at any moment) that makes the masses nervous.

All your favorite dictatorships and oligarchies feature low and steady fuel prices, especially net oil exporters. If you’re looking for cheap gas, go no further than Iran. China also, until the last run up, subsidized fuel prices (and they may be at it again.)

The best reason for the current price run still is a massive de-leveraging that is pushing down all commodities.

 
 
Comment by HARM
2008-11-17 15:51:59

“Investors are snapping up homes formerly occupied by owners with intent of renting them.

It should be legal to shoot anyone still using this term on sight.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-17 16:42:55

No, man, it’s taking care of itself. Economic Darwinism at work here. I still think we have a wave or two of lemmings to go before the economic mass suicide is complete. Let it work itself out, my friend.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 16:51:41

It’s extraordinary, isn’t it?

It’s like most of the world woke up one fine morning and said, “Gee, I think I’ll put a financial bullet in my head today.”

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 16:58:44

I have to say though it was good to see UBS and Goldman turn down “their” bonuses. Seriously though, I still don’t see why having NAR and MBA contributing part of their fees/commissions into the “Money Hole” is such a bad idea?

*HARM and I have a particular disdain for the use of “snapping up” which became a permanent part of the NAR vocabulary 2001-2007.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-17 17:31:13

They didn’t turn down their bonuses. They turned down the bonuses for the top 15-20 people.

The rest of the pigs will be at the trough.

It was symbolic so that nobody comes in and looks too closely.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-17 16:58:29

“Snapped up” strikes me as having an appropriate little ring to it. When I hear it, I can’t help but think of the similarity to someone who “snapped his neck” doing something stupid. :-)

Comment by dude
2008-11-17 17:04:48

Maybe we should all take a mutual oath promising to punch in the nose any realtard who utters those words!

I’m in.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:36:13

Will you do an extra one for me, dude? I don’t like getting snot on my fist.

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Comment by CrookCounty
2008-11-18 00:01:30

It reminds me of the “snatch” guy in Slapshot.

“Here’s to all that gorgeous snapping up by the pool in F-L-A!”

“That realtwhore is no good.”

“I was in Florida once, on a Southern tour, where I met this little redhead who was an underwater specialist. The first thing she says to me was “Come on out by the pool.” So I went out, and she comes leaping out with this banner, wearing nothing but this little see-through wet suit. ”

Yep. Definitely real estate.

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Comment by AK-LA
2008-11-17 18:34:33

Just imagine the homes as bear traps, snapping up investors…

Ahh, that’s better.

Comment by SaladSD
2008-11-17 22:49:45

Hmmmm. I recall an old boyfriend using the term “red snapper” in a rather fond, albeit Henry Miller lexicon, if you know what I mean.

 
 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-11-17 15:55:09

When is the Fed going to step up and bail out the poor victims who lost their life savings in the “Nigerian Prince” scam?

 
Comment by Sagesse
2008-11-17 16:06:10

For entertainment, from the one and only Park Record of Utah, the worst newspaper in the whole wide world.

Buy a million dollar condo, pay 60K to the UHS, and get what?

A slow market can be a good time to advertise
by Andrew Kirk, OF THE RECORD STAFF

“The instinct to conserve resources during a slow market is the wrong one for struggling Realtors, local experts say.

Lee Merryweather, a top-selling agent with ReMax, said most young Realtors he sees are not doing what they’re supposed to.
…..

One thing that works for him is to promise a new pair of skis with every closing. When he shows up to sign the paperwork and he’s got skis in his hand, it brings a big smile and gets him stuck in peoples’ minds,” he said.”

He knows it’s tough for struggling novices to spend money when they’re not making it, but he said to do it anyway.” (!!!)

Comment by sagesse
2008-11-17 16:25:13

Have to add, while UHS there currently advise against selling:
10 % of foreclosures are for between 1 and 4.5 million.
One pre-foreclosure is for 5.5 mill.

Comment by goedeck
2008-11-17 23:41:22

sagesse
How is that Sky on Main condo project doing? I saw them building it when I was there; it seemed pretty high-end.
Also Silver Star north of the resort seemed pretty quiet last January.
Brian

Comment by goedeck
2008-11-17 23:42:40

Park City seems like a future implode. Who fills all those properties in the spring summer and fall? O.o

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Comment by goedeck
2008-11-18 00:00:41

Hopefully not double-post

Seemed like Park City grew way too fast with expensive vacation property. Especially when you include development that is miles away towards I-80.

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Comment by dude
2008-11-17 17:07:39

If there were no JTs to be had, could a ski substitute?

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-17 17:31:21

Skis?

I’m no skier, but having hobbies of my own, I’ll bet all the avid skiers out there would just as well take the time to research and buy their own godd*mn skis instead of having some UHS pick them out.

Besides, if something like skis (or even a crummy car) tip the buyer into making the largest purchase of their life - those buyers deserve to lose their shirts.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:38:32

Topless skiing? Oh, you.

 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 17:54:30

“‘When he shows up to sign the paperwork and he’s got skis in his hand, it brings a big smile and gets him stuck in peoples’ minds,’ he said.”

Boy, what a false sense of studliness this guy has! They’re smiling because they’re thinking, “WTF am I supposed to do with THESE?.”

He’s stuck in peoples’ minds because they’ll still be telling the story of the knuckle-headed realtor 5 years from now.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-18 10:35:04

Back in the declining days of the Bubble, it was common to see Realtors trying to toss in stupid things like cars of questionable value or, my favorite, LEASES on mediocre cards or things like Hummers so that you’d have to basically pay off a lease on a depreciating asset over 30-years by buying the grossly overpriced house.

I guess it is a sign of the changing times as well as the utter inflexible stupidity of the realtors that they now think that handing somebody a couple hundred dollars in ski gear will somehow make it logical to overpay for a house by tens of thousands of dollars!

 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-17 16:16:36

“County records show Bautista refinanced his original mortgage and recovered his down payment 17 months after his purchase”

“‘To pay bills’. Many could not remember what those bills were for”

How convenient!? They talk about modest down payments ( that are equity-skimmed along with supposed “appreciation” and then some ) and paint themselves as being “responsible” by claiming to have “paid off bills”? Good to see the MSM at least check records and ask a few follow up questions.

I just wonder if they went to sleep after a decade of interviewing real estate “lottery winners”?

Comment by Starve_the_Agents
2008-11-17 16:51:27

Plus this idiot bought 8 houses and thinks he’s lost ‘two or three’ so far…

If this electrician wants easy money, tell him to pull a slip-n-fall into a couple of live distribution panels… seems like a more solid plan…

Comment by dude
2008-11-17 17:10:51

An electrician friend for DWP saw a coworker “blow up” not 15 feet away when a dead line unexpectedly reenergized.

Not easy money.

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-17 19:09:22

I get freaked out when my husband works on circuits on our house. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be working on the huge circuits day in and day out.

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-11-17 19:40:52

My brother says, it’s not the shock that gets you, it’s the fall or hitting something has you jump from the feel of the shock.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by chilidoggg
2008-11-17 16:22:42

What was wrong with the “old” affordability index, circa 2005? Using that index, 100% of households could likely afford the median price home. Better yet, 100% could likely afford two houses! These dolts have no imagination.

Comment by pismoclam
2008-11-17 17:26:11

Where’s Lereah when we need him? hehehehehehe

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-17 17:14:48

Fortuna was a Ancient Roman Goddess responsible for fate, when we had a different set of Gods to slavishly worship, back in the day…
====================================================

Fortuna showed the largest net increase in affordability, rising 19 percent between August and September of this year, and 26 percent between October 2007 and September 2008. In September, according to HAR data, 30 percent of households in Fortuna were able to purchase a home in Fortuna. That percentage is still significantly less than in April of 1999, however, when 60 percent of Fortuna households could afford a home in the city.”

 
Comment by Anthony
2008-11-17 17:17:29

I told ya Humboldt has barely dropped. And anything that is priced below comps still sells very quickly. A flipper bought the foreclosure next door to the house I rent…and they are about to put it on the market for $100K more than they bought it from th back for–after just painting it and putting a new roof on it. Some dumba$$ will likely buy it for their asking price.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 18:23:37

One time I leant money to a drug dealer.

Comment by James
2008-11-17 18:56:10

Yeah. I could see you explaining that one to the cops.

Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 19:53:44

No, really. I leant him money so he could buy drugs and then sell them at a profit. What?

Comment by James
2008-11-17 21:15:49

Well. That’s just fine then.

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Comment by Jim A.
2008-11-18 06:08:34

Just like lending to FBs the problem is getting the money back. Contract enforcement can be a difficult issue with drug dealers.

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Comment by James
2008-11-17 19:04:31

So everyone. its still early in this crisis. Listening to the radio this weekend on the way to a sports bar. The radio shows are still advertising bridge loans and little money down deals. Still happening.
500$ down still out there.

People are still flipping or trying to in the southbay and stupid loans are still available.

Seeing more hood houses crossing the 300K barrier.

Plenty of fraud still around. Some houses sit on the market for a couple months, then mysteriously raise their prices and sell. I figure its faking a downpayment by the price differential. The sale price gets jacked up by the amount of gifted downpayment. The downpayment goes right back to the seller. Ugly.

Also hearing rumors of the REOs not getting listed until the brokers are convinced they can’t sell it to friends at a discount. More ugly.

Anyhow, till this all gets overwhelmed with broken banks it will continue. We’ll see how the new congress does with the mess.

Enjoy.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-17 19:29:00

I just got off the phone with a euro-documentary producer. They are planning a film on the housing bubble. They want to meet and interview some of you guys in Vegas in February. More tomorrow in the bits and the forum. (Ain’t that a hoot?)

Comment by Big V
2008-11-17 20:02:28

Really, what do they want to ask? Are they going to ask me about my underwear? I already swore that I would never tell a documentary producer about my underwear ever again!

Comment by pismoclam
2008-11-17 23:14:42

When was the first time? Haf to leave to watch ‘My name is Earl’. hehehehehehe

 
 
Comment by The Housing Wizard
2008-11-17 21:45:47

As long as they don’t bring any machine guns …….

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-17 23:05:26

Is it that Werner guy who did the documentary about the bear mauling? Oh, please let it be! Please let it be!

They could call it Grizzly Man II, the Ben Jones chronicles.

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-11-17 19:37:53

Cool,

This could be my second 15 minutes of fame ;) VIva Las Vegas Baby.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-17 21:43:20

Why not?

 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-11-17 20:41:41

Remember Taco Bell Jeff from SDCIA ? the recession did come after all didn’t it ?

“I will be the first to admit that my CC homes are a huge problem, one without any easy solution. But even if I end up losing 30k a piece on them, I am still ahead of the game a couple hundred thousand dollars (so far).

If I would of listened to the Ben Jones crowd I would still be huddled under my bed yelling “the recession is coming, the recession is coming” and praying that everyone else looses their shirts in real estate so that I can “buy in.” No thanks.

Am I sorry I took the plunge and did something crazy? No way. I will cry all the way to the bank.”

 
Comment by ozajh
2008-11-18 00:41:52

“I will cry all the way to the bank.”

Well he did, didn’t he?

Comment by Max
2008-11-18 02:50:22

Which of the remaining, and rapidly decimating in numbers, banks did he cry all the way to?

 
 
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