November 20, 2008

The Train Wreck We Know Is Coming

The Sun Sentinel reports from Florida. “A typical used home in Broward and Palm Beach counties now sells for less than $295,000, a price not seen here since spring 2004, according to the most recent data from the Florida Association of Realtors. Distressed properties fetch far less than that. Many existing condominium units, meanwhile, are going for under $140,000, nearly 40 percent less than two years ago. Age-restricted communities are seeing growing interest in one-bedroom condos selling for less than $50,000, real estate agents say.”

“Rebecca DiLenge’s only concern was in not buying. She and two roommates were renting an apartment in Pembroke Pines for $1,700 a month. But with home prices falling, DiLenge figured she could buy a home for as much as she was paying in rent. She was drawn to a two-bedroom condo in Weston listed for $165,000. She got it for $129,000.”

“‘Ideally, I wanted to wait a little longer before I decided to buy a home,’ said DiLenge, 25, a personal vacation planner for Carnival Cruise Lines. ‘But with prices so low now, it would have been foolish.’”

“Frank Ginder and his wife Susan Bleda, paid $170,000 for a one-bedroom Midtown condo originally priced at $279,900. Ginder and Bleda, who rent out their home in Wellington, planned to get a mortgage for the condo, but their California lender, IndyMac, failed this summer. Faced with the prospect of losing the Midtown deal or paying cash, Ginder and Bleda chose the latter.”

“‘To me, this couldn’t be a better time to buy real estate, if you believe in an area and the product and the builder,’ Ginder said. ‘Real estate has always been a good long-term investment.’”

The Herald Tribune. “When it comes to financial collapse, Sarasota real estate investor R. Craig Adams has few peers. Adams, who specialized in building waterfront mega-mansions during the boom, has defaulted on nine loans totaling $11.9 million since May. His former wife, Holly Adams, who divorced Adams in 2007, filed for Chapter 7 federal bankruptcy protection in January, listing $22.4 million in debts and only $3.9 million in assets.”

“Holly Adams said the bankruptcy was needed because her name appeared on most of the loans that her husband secured during his long real estate investment career. But that does not mean she knew a lot about her husband’s transactions. ‘I was a stay-at-home mom,’ Holly Adams said. ‘He said, ‘Sign here, sign here,’ and I signed.’”

“In (a) deal that involved sales to and from associates, long-time Adams business associate, Charles Scott Abel, bought a condominium unit on Siesta Key for $380,000 in June 2001 and financed the deal with $380,000 in loans from Bank of America. Abel sold the condo to Adams in April 2002 for $425,000 and Adams received $390,000 in loans from Impac Funding and AmSouth Bank.”

“Adams refinanced his initial loan in 2005 with $588,750 in loans from Opteum Financial Services and BB&T Bank, ultimately selling the condo to his sister’s brother-in-law, David Andrew Strickland, in June 2006 for $694,000. Strickland’s wife, Julie, said the deal was the worst investment decision she and her husband have ever made.”

“‘Craig is a hell of a salesman,’ Julie Strickland said. ‘The way he presented it, it was the greatest condo deal of all time. It was oceanfront property we could buy and pay for by renting it out. But this property has been our downfall. Our credit is ruined.’”

“Washington Mutual seized the condo in April after winning a $552,841 foreclosure judgment.”

“‘Craig’s biggest mistake was that he started doing big $5 million spec houses,’ said Richard Dear, a Siesta Key real estate investor who bought several properties from Adams over the years. ‘That’s when he ran into trouble.’”

“A curious thing happened in early September. After a long time in the darkness, the Southwest Florida real estate market finally began to show signs of life. But the housing crisis triggered a financial crisis, a credit meltdown and an overall economic tailspin that transformed the playing field in a matter of days and weeks.”

“For the Sarasota-Bradenton real estate market, the optimism evaporated. ‘We had people in here looking to buy. There had been a lot of activity. But as soon as the economy tanked, it was like somebody turned the water off,’ said Sherwin Taradash, a Michael Saunders & Co. agent based in Lakewood Ranch.”

“‘Trend lines and rules of thumb do well under normal circumstances, but now we have so many complex variables at work in the marketplace,’ said Jack McCabe, a Fort Lauderdale-based real estate analyst who correctly predicted the housing downturn before it began. ‘No one really knows where this thing is going.’”

The Beacon Online. “Volusia County’s unemployment rate is higher than national and state averages, and home-loan defaults are rising locally. Economic Development Director Rick Michael briefed the County Council on the local economy, noting Volusia has just over 258,000 people employed or able to work, and about 18,000 of them do not have jobs.”

“Perhaps to no one’s surprise, home construction has fallen to about half of the almost $145 million value for the July-September period of 2007. The slowdown in home building is related to the steep increase in foreclosures. The Clerk of the Court’s Office shows there were 4,195 foreclosures in Volusia County in 2007, and the number of homes repossessed in the first nine months of 2008 totals 5,679. ”

“Of those 5,679, only 739 have been sold, leaving a glut of houses on the market and driving the prices of many of them lower. ‘It’s a serious concern to us. It represents about 8 percent of our housing stock,’ Michael said.”

“County Manager James Dinneen recalled stories from Ohio and other Northern states, describing ‘people freezing to death in the streets of cities.’ ‘We’re getting to the point where, if all else fails, you turn to the county,’ he said. ‘How do we avoid the train wreck we know is coming?’”

‘Alluding to the barrage of gloomy economic news, Dinneen added he needs the council’s help to prepare a contingency plan in case ‘the bottom falls out.’”

The Palm Beach Post. “An analysis of the nation’s market for new homes from Metrostudy: ‘There are hundreds of housing markets, and each is on a different trajectory,’ said Brad Hunter, Metrostudy’s chief economist and national director of consulting. ‘Some markets never experienced a price boom, and are therefore having a less severe bust, but they are all suffering badly.’”

“Hunter’s comments came as the Commerce Department reported that construction of new homes and apartments fell 4.5 percent in October, the fourth straight monthly decline. Construction sank to an annual rate of 791,000 units from an upwardly revised September rate of 828,000 units. The results were the lowest on government records dating back to January 1959. Previously, the slowest pace had been in January 1991.”

“‘Naples/Fort Myers starts in subdivisions are off 92 percent from the peak, as of the end of the third quarter of 2008. Phoenix new-home construction is off 75 percent from the peak, while Atlanta is off 84 percent,’ Hunter said.”

“Austin (off 49 percent) and Raleigh (off 57 percent) never had a price bubble, and it is remarkable that they are down as far as they are, Hunter said. ‘Finished, vacant inventories are actually coming down, but they remain too high in most markets,’ he said. ‘The markets that have the most serious problems are Central Florida, with 8.9 months of finished, vacant home inventory, South Florida, with 8.3 months, Atlanta, with 8.1 months, and Coastal Los Angeles and Naples/Ft. Myers, each with 8 months.’”

“These readings are all far in excess of the ‘equilibrium’ level of 1.5 to 2.5 months that is typical in a normal market, Hunter said.”

“A Delray Beach man on trial for mortgage fraud used his position as a real estate closing agent to help others land more than $5 million in fraudulent loans, a federal prosecutor told jurors Monday in Fort Lauderdale federal court.”

“Howard Gaines smoothed the way for a Coral Springs con man to use straw buyers and forged documents to purchase dozens of Broward County properties, prosecutor Jeffrey Kay said in opening statements. That man, Anthony Dehaney, pleaded guilty last month to mortgage fraud charges and is expected to testify for the government at Gaines’ trial.”

“Federal authorities have touted the case as part of a crackdown on mortgage fraud. Since September 2007, federal prosecutors have charged more than 110 individuals in cases involving nearly $200 million in loans, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.”

The News Press. “The median price of an existing Lee County single-family home sold with the help of a Realtor was $147,800, down 39 percent from $243,800 in the third quarter of 2007. Sales increased 73 percent from 1,273 to 2,198 in the same period. At the peak of the real estate boom in the county, the median single-family home sold for $322,300, more than twice what it is now.”

“The trend of higher sales volume continued in October, said Steve Koffman, a real estate broker in Cape Coral. For example, off-water homes in Cape Coral sold for a median price of $105,000, down 5 percent from September, he said. Meanwhile, the number of off-water Cape homes sold was 337 in October, the highest monthly rate since 2004 except for September’s 349.”

“Some investors are buying up homes to rent them but many buyers are ‘people who can afford a house at $85,000 who couldn’t before,’ Koffman said.”

“People with good credit usually have no trouble getting financing but risk-sensitive bankers are turning down those with credit problems, he said. ‘If you’ve got questionable credit, you’re not going to get a loan, you’re just not.’”

The Orlando Sentinel. “Beleaguered developer Kevin Azzouz has sold his lavish lakefront mansion in Windermere for $8.25 million, according to a warranty deed recorded last week in Orange County. Azzouz bought the 22,000-square-foot, three-story home for $5.1 million in 1997, when he was riding high as a former dot-com millionaire looking to be a big-time land developer in west Orange County. The Orange County property appraiser estimates the cost of the building new would be $10.6 million.”

“Azzouz, who had ambitious plans to breathe new life into the MetroWest mixed-use development in west Orlando, is now scrambling to salvage what he can of the project, which has been slowed by the slump in condominium sales and the sour economy. Azzouz faces lawsuits, liens and foreclosures totaling more than $70 million connected to his half-built Veranda Park project in MetroWest. He did not return calls seeking comment.”

The Miami New Times. “When times get tough, the wealthy serve pigs-in-a-blanket at cocktail parties. Actually, those little bite-size wieners were the only hint of scaling back at a recent hoity-toity elbow-rubbing event at the Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach. ”

“Members of the Hialeah-based Developers and Builders Alliance recently gathered at the estate to discuss fantasy architecture and how to get richer. Under enormous crystal chandeliers, they talked beachfront property in Costa Rica, shopping malls in Cairo, and, of course, how it’s just the right time to invest in South Florida.”

“‘All you have to do is observe the lifestyle we have here,’ Brickell-based developer Evangeline Gouletas gushed. ‘International buyers have been to the great cities of the world. You can’t buy land like this anywhere else.’”

“Gouletas has heard the economy is sagging. She chortled while recounting the tale of a housekeeper who bought a $5 million unit and then asked for her deposit back. If only Gouletas had a zillion dollars to bargain-shop in this ’soft’ real estate market!”

“Real estate consultant Michael Cannon, also of Miami, pooh-poohed all of those headlines about the weak housing market. ‘I’m guessing that only 25 percent of foreclosure filings actually end up in foreclosure sales.’”




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101 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-20 08:08:08

‘Austin (off 49 percent) and Raleigh (off 57 percent) never had a price bubble, and it is remarkable that they are down as far as they are, Hunter said.’

See, Metrostudy is some big housing consulting firm. They missed the entire bubble and still can’t find their ass with both hands.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-20 08:16:44

Ass in, the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing?

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:19:35

“Beleaguered developer Kevin Azzouz has sold his lavish lakefront mansion in Windermere for $8.25 million, according to a warranty deed recorded last week in Orange County.”

WTFWTFWTFWTFWTF? Windermere? LMAO! (I need Puttytat to give a Bwaetc,etc.) For anyone not familiar with this area, it’s a flat, boggy, hot, humid, bug-infested hell-hole of faux mansions. Truly unbelievable that anyone would spend $8.25 million for a place there. let alone five mill. It’s not even anywhere near the coast. Oh, and did I mention it is vulnerable to tornados?

Comment by snake charmer
2008-11-20 08:27:54

Doesn’t Tiger Woods have a house there? I always thought a lot of pro golfers lived in Windermere.

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:36:38

I think Michael Jackson briefly had a manse there and so did that repulsive toad (now in jail) who produced the boy bands.

 
Comment by weez
2008-11-20 10:49:53

Islesworth is across the lake from Windermere. That is where Tiger, Shaq, Griffey Jr and others usually live.

Palmetto, just curious as to why the hostility/dislike for Windermere?

Most of Florida is flat, hot, humid, full of bugs.

Windermere is a town of about 2000 people. The police are ticket happy due to small roads with a 25mph speed limit. And a lot of those sub-divisions around Windermere that have sprung up in the last few years are full of gaudy wanna be mansions.

Tornadoes??? Again most of Fl would be just as vulnerable.

They have some very nice lakes there, though they are overcrowded.

Maybe there is another Windermere??? The one i am refering to is in Orange County and closer to Orlando than Disney is.

Mike

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 15:51:30

“Palmetto, just curious as to why the hostility/dislike for Windermere?”

Pretty much for the reasons you just listed. I mean, really, while it may be true that much of Florida is flat, hot, humid and full of bugs, they’re not asking millions for the houses in these areas, either, unless they’re on the coast. Seriously, anywhere around Orlando during the summer/early fall is hellish, to say the least. Breezes are all but unheard of, unless there is the above-referenced tornado.

But my main hostility is reserved for the ridiculous prices for the pretentious faux mansions.

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Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-11-23 06:14:27

Tiger Woods is finishing a tear-down re-build on Jupiter Island in Martin County, Just 25 miles north of West Palm Beach…..

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:27:57

Oh and heaven forbid there should ever be a power outage there in the middle of summer. Residents would drown in their own sweat. I’m not kidding, it gets so bad you can’t breathe, because you’re breathing in warm water.

 
Comment by climber
2008-11-20 11:22:06

Just don’t forget that the deed doesn’t record all the cash back. We gave our seller about 3% in closing costs and then left 1k worth of applliances (which we’re still using as renters he he).

The real numbers are worse than what’s being reported, we just don’t know how much.

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-11-20 08:23:46

They found the two dumbest people in Ft. Lauderdale for that Sun-Sentinel story. Ms. DiLenge likely will be unemployed in twelve months, and that condo will go right back into the market via foreclosure. “Personal vacation planner”? LMFAO! And Mr. Ginder, you might have well lit that $170k on fire, just like Christopher McCandless burned his cash before heading into the wilderness in the “Into the Wild” book and film.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-11-20 09:00:27

I’m so glad Ben picked up on this knife catcher story. I almost vomited this morning when I read it in the paper.

 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-20 09:40:41

Nahh, those aren’t the dumbest 2 people in FTL. There are plenty that would run neck and neck with them for that title. :) Trust me, the “dumbest person in SFL” is a hotly contested title!

Comment by FED Up
2008-11-20 12:07:42

Here are some in the competition:

” Retirees paying all cash also are getting into the game, yanking their money out of the volatile stock market and putting it back into real estate.” (from first article)

 
 
Comment by Ann
2008-11-20 11:18:56

Wait until they

1)Get their tax bill and find out that the property appraiser goes by the comps in the area that DO NOT include foreclosures and short sales

2)Get hit by a hurricane and see their assesments be about 30% of what they paid for their property.

3)realize that their HOA is several hundred dollars a month and that only goes up!

I wouldn’t touch a condo in Florida. The chances of selling it when you want in the future is about the same odds as hitting the big one on the lottery!

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:24:28

“Rebecca DiLenge’s only concern was in not buying. She and two roommates were renting an apartment in Pembroke Pines for $1,700 a month. But with home prices falling, DiLenge figured she could buy a home for as much as she was paying in rent. She was drawn to a two-bedroom condo in Weston listed for $165,000. She got it for $129,000.”

“‘Ideally, I wanted to wait a little longer before I decided to buy a home,’ said DiLenge, 25, a personal vacation planner for Carnival Cruise Lines. ‘But with prices so low now, it would have been foolish.’”

Unbestinkinglievable. Between the mortgage, taxes AND the ever-escalating condo fees and assessments, she’ll be up over that $1,700.00 in no time. I would bet any amount of money that she did not factor in the condo assessments. This twit is in for a real treat.
Not to mention her “job” as a “personal vacation planner” for Carnival. Wonder how secure that is?

Comment by Mike in Miami
2008-11-20 08:38:52

Personal vacation planner is a job with a future. Think about all the unemployed that will finally have time to relax and take a vacation instead of putting in overtime. I wish my job was as secure. /sarcasm off

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-11-20 09:06:53

For the short to mid-term I think cruises are going to be the ticket. People who are still looking to vacation look to the value of one price. If the economy continues to sour, there will be no safety in any travel related business.

Comment by Muggy
2008-11-20 09:19:59

I think the worst vacation I’ve ever had was on cruise.

I still regret wasting the money. I know some people love them, but I’m not happy on a floating, all-you-can-eat, ghetto ant farm.

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Comment by Blano
2008-11-20 09:56:19

Lolol that’s funny Muggy.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-11-20 10:04:01

Can’t please everyone I guess.

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-11-20 10:10:41

“Can’t please everyone I guess.”

No, but if you love rude, obese women, you’d be in hog heaven. Nyuk.

 
Comment by Blano
2008-11-20 10:14:41

Lololol stop!!!!!!

 
Comment by In Montana
2008-11-20 10:37:14

Seriously, that’s how they strike me, too. And I’m an old lady. Never was interested & would rather be at the destination already than spend time getting there. “Eat your way to Hawaii!” A friend told me that’s all they did.

Yet hubby thinks these are the cat’s meow and keeps hinting around, how about a cruise to Alaska? See bears and glaciers and stuff on the shore. Bleah!

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 10:57:25

Muggy,

Too funny. Best “cruise” we ever took was the “Dumagette Star” ( a tramp steamer ) that takes you down to Dipolog on the island of Mindanao in the Philippines.

Never mind “ghetto” ( you’re boarding w/ chickens and goats ) Oh and when they tell you to make note of where the life preservers and abandon ship stations are at..? Make note.

Anyway “I” never had a better time. I chatted w/ the crew, got a tour of the “engine room” and passed out on the gallery deck on top of burlap sacks of coconut husks. It was heaven. Then they drop you off on an island where there are headhunters and Islamic rebels. ALL for (1) low price!

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-11-20 12:02:06

“ALL for (1) low price!”

Did you also tip that one guy, what’s he called? The guy that’s supposed to give a crap about how you slept, and if you need more after-dinner mints.

By the way, I was so belligerent at my “Fun Host” that I was nearly tased (Don’t tase me, bro!) at debarkation. I just wanted off the ship.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 12:58:29

Muggy,

Filipinos (typically) don’t have any real sense of “privacy”. I think about the only thing they do that’s truly solitary IS… use the bathroom. Other than that it’s an “all together” attitude and largely classless society.

As in “Pardon ( your Lordship )”

The “berthing” looks a lot like boot camp w/ bunks and old people along with infants and perhaps a favorite tarsier or two? ( In the P.I people don’t really use coolers so throwing your bananas over your shoulder while boarding is proper etiquette ) Goats need be securely tied in the fantail deck prior to getting underway.

 
Comment by Muggy
2008-11-20 19:08:27

“Goats need be securely tied in the fantail deck prior to getting underway” said NYCityBoy as he entered the bar.

 
 
Comment by packman
2008-11-20 10:10:13

No way. Staycations and/or driving vacations to see relatives are it these days. Cruises are just too expensive, even the supposedly cheap ones.

Disclosure - I’m short CCL (Carnival), and raking it in. Maybe I’ll take a cruise with the $$ I’ve made - talk about irony! Hoooot hooot!

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-20 11:50:18

Assuming they (or their competitors) survive. ;-)

 
Comment by packman
2008-11-20 12:30:10

Heck, maybe I’ll buy my own cruise line, just so I can get my own cruise in. Then let it sink.

:)

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-20 15:06:09

HBB Cruise Trip!!!

 
Comment by packman
2008-11-20 19:08:16

There you go! I like the cut of your jib!

 
 
 
 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-11-20 10:40:38

$1700/mo rent versus a $130K loan? Sorry I think the $130K loan would win.

And as I understand it in terms of cruises, it depends on what you go on. If you go on a ghetto cruise, expect ghetto people. The more you spend, the less ghetto. And now with the ghetto people unable to borrow money to go on a cruise, this should thin the customer base.
(I’d prefer to fly somewhere and get right to diving).

 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-11-20 11:04:16

Then she will take on a roommate to help pay her mortage.
Nothing changes except the date.

 
Comment by Ann
2008-11-20 11:20:56

For 1,700 a month in Pembroke Pines you could rent a SFH. What kind of apartment was she renting in the middle of suburbia?

Not even near the beach, South Beach or anything interesting…

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:31:53

“‘Trend lines and rules of thumb do well under normal circumstances, but now we have so many complex variables at work in the marketplace,’ said Jack McCabe, a Fort Lauderdale-based real estate analyst who correctly predicted the housing downturn before it began. ‘No one really knows where this thing is going.’”

Yah, not really, he took his cue from THIS blog and gave it the old soft-shoe. Jack, Jack, you should know darned well where this thing is going. DOWN, BAYBEE, DOWN!

Comment by climber
2008-11-20 09:17:16

If you go into Excel and look at the options for trend lines LINEAR is only one of six options, and all of those are non periodic. These idiots probably would try to forecast weather with a wet thumb.

 
Comment by Jack McCabe
2008-11-20 22:14:04

“Yah, not really, he took his cue from THIS blog and gave it the old soft-shoe. Jack, Jack, you should know darned well where this thing is going. DOWN, BAYBEE, DOWN!”

Palmetto,
1. I think Ben can verify that I began discussing the housing bust in published articles beginning in May, 2004, quite awhile before I came across Ben’s blog. I think he can also verify he learned about what was happening in florida (the real truth) through my published quotes and analysis.

2. I’ve never been one to soft shoe anything regarding this housing/economic crisis. The full article that is paraphrased on the blog here is only one of several of my comments. I suggest you read the entire article and all my quotes before making an incorrect judgement based on the only one you see above.

Watch for the second Cannon vs. McCabe debate on the Miami market (including fireworks) in the Miami Herald sometime in the first half of December (in a Monday edition).

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-20 22:28:40

‘I think he can also verify he learned about what was happening in florida (the real truth) through my published quotes and analysis.’

This is very true. Jack was talking sense when no one else was in Florida. I still quote him as saying (in spring 2005!) condo conversions are the last to boom and the first to fall, which has certainly proven to be true.

Jack McCabe is one of my heros.

 
Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-11-23 06:37:22

Mike Morgan in Stuart, Florida, has been a critic of the Real Estate mess ……So much so, that he has mostly given up on his R/E brokerage business, and is pumping investment advice [for a fee of course], to people who want to capitalize on the downward movement of the markets…..Listening to him, it would seem he is making more money [for himself & clients] than he did in R/E….
I pretty much feel the way he does, and I don’t think R/E in Florida will hit bottom till 2013…..
Debt is going to bring this country to it’s knees….There Will Be Tears

 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 08:35:52

In reading back through the financial history of R. Craig Adams the dollar amounts involved in his projects from the early/mid 90’s look miniscule by today’s standards.

A 16k loan!? By 2005 that wouldn’t have covered the FEES on a construction loan! Wow, it’s just amazing to see how the this -clearly- escalated beyond what these “developers” had the professional capicity to handle.

But I suppose by ‘03/’04 just having completed a few modest projects was credentials enough?

Comment by DennisN
2008-11-20 11:31:20

My dad bought his first house - in Palo Alto - for less than $16K. IIRC $11,500. I’m sure that guys like Eichler only needed $5K construction loans back then. Land in Sunnyvale CA was probably almost free then.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 11:47:03

DennisN,

What drives me nuts is how did the banks drew the parallel that somehow being proficient at doing fixer-uppers automatically transferred into major developments?

And we’re not going to “back in the day”, we’re talking about 10-15 years ago? Everyone invites success into their lives, but not everyone can handle it. Right now I’m big time worried that the owner of my building won’t be able to meet his obligations without an anchor tenant.

Sorry, but when you have a financial firm, the fact that your LL went belly up won’t cut any ice w/ clients. Either assume you DO own the building or that you could ( or would ) buy it at the drop of a hat! Either way, I think it will end up reflecting poorly on me? The owner is a nice guy and all…

Comment by DennisN
2008-11-20 12:21:21

What ticks me off most about Adams is that his kids are going to become wards of the state….
“Adams said that he would have trouble meeting a commitment to provide $3,500 per month in child support.”

Sorry to hear that your LL is shakey. It’s a funny thing, I’ve been hanging around RE crash sites (mostly patrick’s) for around 4 years now. We all got what we asked for - the bursting of the RE bubble - but I don’t think we understood what the “collateral damage” would be. The price of houses is down across the board but they still aren’t “affordable” in a jobbless recessionary world.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 13:08:01

DennisN,

Well spake. You’ll recall our REIC “buddies” continuously warning us ( after momentum waned and only ‘pride’ remained ) to “be careful what you wish for!” as prices maintained at nosebleed levels and commissions dried up?

If you recall some of my posts from Patrick’s, I never wanted to “just see the world burn”. I still ‘don’t’. Yet you’ll also recall around the start of ‘06 we started to become aware of how all the Credit Default Swaps etc. unraveling wouldn’t be pretty.

At the point, supporting the DOW became so much wishful thinking. The sad part is, for all our preparation, very few of us are any better off for it. I CALLED Peter Schiff’s L.A office and at length they admitted, that yes ( even HE is underwater ) Great…

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-11-20 08:38:54

‘there were 4,195 foreclosures in Volusia County in 2007, and the number of homes repossessed in the first nine months of 2008 totals 5,679. Of those 5,679, only 739 have been sold. ‘It represents about 8 percent of our housing stock,’ Michael said.’

When I was posting in early 2005, the worst percentage I could find in the country was small subdivisions in North Carolina at 1.5%. They’d had some builder doing a lot of subprime loans that went bad quickly. The Charlotte Observer reported that just at that level, prices were forced down.

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:45:14

Volusia County’s claim to fame is Daytona Beach, that’s about it. Daytona is sandwiched by Ormond and New Smyrna Beaches, which are heavy with retirement folks. I think we used to have a poster here from Ormond.

I resided very briefly in Seminole County, adjacent to Volusia. Sanford (small town in Seminole) gets all excited about “Biker Week” as the main event of the year. Whoo-hoo! I’m sure all those bikers will keep Seminole and Volusia afloat.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-11-20 09:29:50

Don’t forget the Daytona 500. The track draws large crowds several days a year.
That should help.

There was a TON of land put up for sale in Volusia county (unbuildable swamp land) during the mania.
I even found it on e-bay, advertised as near Disney and the Atlantic Ocean. A perfect weekend retreat.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 10:07:36

palmetto,

If you’re looking for any kind of a barometer, just look at all the empty seats and ridiculously LOW bidding at this year’s Barrett Jackson Auto auction!

I watched a little on Speed Channel and was impressed with all the shiney chrome but our SIL ( real auto buff ) said it was an absolute disaster! Still I’m amazed these luxuries didn’t dry up earlier?

Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-11-20 15:56:41

I am seeing vintage cars being advertised on Craigslist — which is where people sell beater cars and dealers go to act like they’re staying busy.

Anyone want a $39,000 1966 Chevy Impala?

Yo, it’s mint.

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Comment by Juno Moneta
2008-11-23 06:52:59

Ben; Here’s one for you….I used to live @ Plantation Bay, in Ormond Beach, Volusia County, Florida……An upscale development of 1500 homes with 3 golf course, and 2 club houses…..We rented there for nearly 2 years..Down the street from us, there were many, many homes for sale by flippers……Here’s the story of just one…..Some one bought a nice 3/2 CBS w 2 car garage for $351K, and tried to flip-it for $400K +….After more than 2 years it went into foreclosure, and is now listed for $220K by the bank…..
The builder/developer [ICI Homes] had one whole street full [43 homes], for sale in the $450K range, and has NOW got them For Sale in the $250K range…. Things are really bad in there, and they’ve got their Model Homes for rent @ $1800/mo ,furnished with utilities…These were $450K homes just two years ago….
The destruction of wealth/savings is going to have an enormous toll on the economy and the populace……

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-20 08:47:37

I’m sorry, I know this is the Florida thread, but I still can’t get over Janet Napolitano as the pick for Homeland Security.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-20 09:48:18

I can’t either.

After years of watching illegal immigrants pouring over our southern border, all the while insisting that the problem was a federal responsibility, she finally signed an employer sanctions bill into law.

Truth is, Janet had no choice. A much stricter measure was heading toward the ballot. And, here in Arizona, we voters just love to pass those illegal immigration-related measures by huge margins.

We also enjoy voting against any attempt to loosen our toughest-in-the-nation employer sanctions law. Come to think of it, we just did so. The Stop Illegal Hiring (doncha just love that misleading name?) ballot measure just went down by a score of 59-41.

Comment by Skip
2008-11-20 10:30:47

I never did hear of anything bad happening due to the employer sanctions bill. Did businesses in AZ manage to adjust hiring practices or did they find loop holes around it?

Will Napolitano be against such a law on a Federal level?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-20 11:18:29

I can’t say that I’ve heard anything bad about the employer sanctions law.

Oh, the large urban school districts are crying the blues because their enrollments have fallen, but, hey, I can’t think of too many other countries that would provide a free education to children who aren’t there legally.

And there are businesses that, ahem, had a certain clientele and there aren’t as many of them now. Seems that those former clients have up and left the state.

I am starting to see businesses advertise that their workers are in the country legally. ‘Bout time, I say.

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Comment by Skip
2008-11-20 13:31:14

The Texas Constitution requires that children not legally in the state be given a free eduction.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2008-11-20 11:36:11

I wonder why the didn’t title the bill the Stop Hiring Illegal Transients bill instead?

 
 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-11-20 08:50:16

That meeting at Trump’s old Mar-a-Lago place sounds like the type of ambiance that existed on the Titanic in the first hour after the iceberg collision. Costa Rica will not be their lifeboat and these attendees too will drown, in cold financial reality. Sometimes I wish I could crash one of these events, like when DiCaprio’s character dined in the Titanic’s fine dining room with Kate Winslet, just to have a drink and listen in with stupefied amazement to people like Ms. Gouletas. It probably would take me about thirty seconds to commit a major social faux pas.

Comment by Incredulous (the original)
2008-11-20 09:32:32

I commit social faux pas just by existing.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-11-20 10:06:18

Most Floridians do. I think we are, as a group, by far the most ornery posters on this blog.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2008-11-20 10:42:53

Go Gators!

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Comment by Muggy
2008-11-20 12:06:08

“Floridians… by far the most ornery posters on this blog”

Yup. That’s why we don’t need to use our turn signal, can tailgate, slam on our brakes, and curse at children in Wal*Mart.

New state motto:
Because in Florida, it just doesn’t matter anymore!

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Comment by Incredulous (the original)
2008-11-20 13:23:27

I think you’re confusing Floridians with Yankee immigrants.

 
 
Comment by charliegator in Gainesville, Florida
2008-11-20 12:31:31

I represent that remark!

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Comment by WT Economist
2008-11-20 08:52:23

“Age-restricted communities are seeing growing interest in one-bedroom condos selling for less than $50,000, real estate agents say.”

My mother told me here retired friends are “on the verge of hysteria” as the money they’ll have to live on ’til death ebbs away. She told me she doesn’t want to end up a bag lady on the street (anyone doesn’t get the 1970s NY reference?).

I told her that’s the one thing she doesn’t have to worry about. She may not have food. She many not have energy. She may be freezing in the dark. But housing, we’ve got plenty of that, and it will be the one affordability issue we don’t have.

Cheap housing, whatever a reduced social security will pay for, and free content over the radio and on the internet is probably the best younger folks can hope for during their “golden years,” in their late 70s, after they can no longer work. I see it coming.

But for those already in retirement today, much better than that is a depressing shock.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 09:13:38

WT Economist,

My “grands” were Bulgarian immigrants that lived in Cicero, IL and gramps retired from the Milwaukie Road after 35 years. They moved to St. Pete in the early 70’s. Had a single-wide in a senior trailer park, some AT&T stock along with “Con-Ed” and a 1968 Ford Galaxie.

“Villy” always boasted that the railroad gave him a FREE turkey every Thanksgiving! Life was good.

I just happen to think it’s the “expectations” of unlimited travel, leisure, golf, cultural events, wine tasting and dining out 6 nights a week they will find so crushing. When you think about it, who ‘wouldn’t’ be disappointed?

Comment by In Montana
2008-11-20 10:51:39

At that age you should be happy enough just to be able to get up and walk around. I’d be content with a single-wide.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-11-20 11:11:19

I agree that expectations are part of the problem, but not the whole problem.

A $50 K cottage within walking distance from a beach or lake, what more do you need? And if you don’t have to go to work every day, how hard is it to cook at home? Back in the day that was a great retirement.

Blame the advertisements for telling people how they ought to live. Our cultural leaders for the herd of lemmings. Expecting affluence, many may find poverty, having blown their chance at something in between.

Health is one factor. Retiring to soon and having a mortgage in old age is a greater factor. Fortunately, my parents paid theirs off.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 12:01:10

WT Economist,

I would never agrue that, and how can having a mortgage well into retirement be a healthy thing?

The expectations had no anchor in reality. How else did we end up w/ UPS drivers that thought they should “fit right in” in what just a few years ago would have been an exclusive ret. community for top executives?

I can ( and ‘will’ ) blame the advertisements but I’ll also blame the REIC. You just had to know they weren’t going to let the largest demographic shift in American history slip off to a “cozy” single-wide?

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Comment by ik99
2008-11-20 11:54:36

Hey my grands were also immigrants from Bulgaria. The only thing I remember ethnic wise was the crazy colored egg braking around Easter…

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 12:09:19

ik99,

LOL! Yeah, the “rich Bulgarian culture”! Would that be the fine art of s-u-r-v-i-v-a-l? I remember gramps wouldn’t eat “fresh” bread. He liked it stale.

They’d also hang salami from the rafters in the garage to allow it to “age” properly. They drank Kessler’s and Falstaff. Class all the way baby!

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Comment by Eudemon
2008-11-20 20:22:41

True Chicagoans through and through.

Falstaff beer! Best beer this poster drank illegally at White Sox games in 1979/1980.

RIP Bill Veeck and Harry Carry. May you forever be awash in all the Falstaff and fried chicken you should ever desire. Shake that wooden leg!

 
 
 
 
Comment by climber
2008-11-20 09:29:11

My inlaws can second that. They live in an age discriminating community (you should have seen the ninnies squeal when our kids tried to play in the fountain next to the pool). They’re working at the mall for SEEs candy for the holiday season, full time work for geezers is almost impossible to find. My MIL told my wife the other day she NEVER thought she’d have trouble finding a job if it came to that, now it’s come to that and she can’t.

She is double screwed because my FIL insisted on taking the higher payout that quits when he dies, and he insisted on living in a motorhome until his cataracts (and a 50mph blowout) intervened.

Make that triple screwed because their “retirement” is mostly tied up in the stock market and they have a mortgage on their house and motorhome.

That’s why my mom is getting advise from both my brother and myself that it’s better to work for $50/ hour in your 60’s than for $12/hour in your 70’s after your marketable skills have lapsed.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 10:02:03

climber,

Sorry to hear that. I really am. It’s perfectly fine to take the higher payout if a fraction of that goes into a term life policy or long-term disability ( but sadly that’s seldom the case ) Especially when there’s alligators to feed?

I don’t know if this will make you feel any better, but your folks are hardly alone.

Comment by climber
2008-11-20 11:33:08

It’s not quite as bad as it sounds. My father in law is still alive, but my MIL is 16 years younger and in better health, so her future income is in serious question.

The 50mph blowout just convinced them to buy a stationary house, hence the two mortgages. Now both their mortgaged assets are declining, but the motor home is still winning the race to the bottom. As bad as the housing market is the market for motorhomes is worse.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-20 13:20:30

These stories are depressing.

Predictable but depressing.

 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-11-20 11:42:03

Good point, your folks are hardly alone.
Living most of my life surrounded by seniors/retirees ( Art LInkletters estates in Hemet/ then Palm Springs), has kept my eyes open to both things, poor retirees and ’snowbirds’ who are wealthy 2nd homeowners who migrate down south for the winter to warm their feathers with our heat and Santa Ana’s winds.
I have seen seniors who are so poor they only show up once a week for some day old bread in the back of the stores, and wealthier ones standing over the fruit/veg bins eating their food without paying.

At least my mom won’t notice the decline in her lifestyle.

I have met several seniors/retirees who have used up any monies they had to buy their prescriptions because of that DONUTHOLE in the MEdicare fiasco that Bush passed. And they tell me that they have no money at all left to live on and now don’t buy their prescriptions.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-20 12:13:23

desertdweller,

Sad. What’s next for them, Slab City?

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-20 13:39:16

A friend of my mother’s is the same way. Runs into the “donut hole” about March of every year. My mother used to tell her to select a different Medicare plan that would eliminate it since she has a good idea of what meds she will need in the coming year.

Her response is always “I don’t want to pay any more per month”.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-20 14:38:20

What a buncha dweeb-suckin’ toilet-lickin’ mouth-breathers!

Does nobody analyze “total cost” only “monthly cost”?

What’s wrong with these people?

 
 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-20 10:14:03

They live in an age discriminating community (you should have seen the ninnies squeal when our kids tried to play in the fountain next to the pool).’

Those age discriminating communities really piss me off. Rejecting anyone under certain ages…now, my tax dollars don’t get rejected when it comes time to use them to pay for Viagra, Rogaine, Botox for the oldsters, now, DO they?
What if I WANT to live with a buncha grumpy old coots with canes and argyle sweaters? What if I WANT to sit on the porch and whittle bunnies whilst I reminisce about the golden old days, in between shouting at whippersnappers to get away from my roses?

I don’t want to, as it happens. I prefer to play in fountains when I want, and that my neighbors be trees and frogs. But my point is, what if I DID?! Huh? Huh? Huh? Yeah!

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-20 10:26:48

Maybe I do want to join an age restricted community, now that I think of it. The other day I was driving along and my stupid friend pointed out that I am very likely an old farmer spirit that somehow got trapped inside a dainty girl body.
These were his stupid points: I wear overalls sometimes and on purpose. I have a little coin purse. I am suspicious of city-folk. I grow abnormally superior pumpkins. I hate change. I drive the wrong speed for any condition. I have and use a corncob pipe, that I made myself. I think people are all stupid except for me.

There were some other stupid points as well, but my memory fails me.

Well, shoots! I’ll tell yer what I did ’bout THAT. I screeched to a halt, gazed sourly at that whippersnapper, told him to respect his elders, and then I drove slowly home, grumbling the whole time about the gov’mint and stupid city-folks with their crazy theories.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-20 10:51:49

I’m OK with joining an age restricted community as long as I’m the one doing the restrictin’.

Come to think of it that’s my philosophy on most restrictions.

 
 
Comment by Muir
2008-11-20 10:30:10

Then, I’m sure that of all people who post here, you’d find a way. :-)

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Comment by Muir
2008-11-20 10:32:07

That was in reply to:
” But my point is, what if I DID?! Huh? Huh? Huh? Yeah!”

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-20 11:07:11

The ultimate irony is that the ONLY places here in Maryland that have built affordable and reasonably sized houses in the past 10 years are the “age discriminating” communities?! So, the only house a younger person (who doesn’t have an old house to flip at an absurd price) can afford is one in a place that SPECIFICALLY bans younger people?! Unreal… I guess I should have gotten a house at 6x my income with 2,000 of excess space and then not payed my mortgage so the government can bail me out.

That, and I wouldn’t mind living with the old folks - they are probably relatively harmless, I doubt I’d hear bass-speaker thumping away from g-rides at 2 in the morning, and they don’t move fast enough to be able to commit any crimes. Works for me!

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Comment by desertdweller
2008-11-20 11:44:42

OLygal.
You may not want to live within the confines of the senior communities.
After spending times at their holiday events, card games in the community center, and listening to them bitch about each other,well, actually it maybe alot like us here on this forum, only with alot
more infirmaties!

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-11-20 19:00:59

As you get older one of two things happen: You die relatively young now or you deteriorate and die older later. And your situation is never better later than it is now.

My wife and I are in the early, active, healthy years of retirement. If we’re lucky we’ll wake up dead one morning. If not, the support that exists in this (mostly) senior community, and that we’ll eventually need, is priceless.

BTW, no mortgage, no debt, and our savings/investments haven’t lost a dime.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by ron
2008-11-20 09:04:51

25 years of investor driven sales & speculation on a grand scale that’s what Florida market represents. Overbuilding leading to excess inventory combined with a slowing national economy drives the death spike thru the heart. The investor driven RE economy naturally creates excess inventory leading to boom and bust cycles and today 40% of SFR sales are foreclosures with most of that investor sales.
Grim!

 
Comment by abdul tikritii
2008-11-20 09:07:41

these stories are an endless source of pleasure, because while reporters generally suck, they deserve credit for finding stupid people to talk to.

on the other hand, our supposed press deserves flagellation if not execution for its blindness to the coming storm — just as it was blind to the dotscum storm. bunch of credulous goobers with shallow educations and no foresight.

 
Comment by hubrispie
2008-11-20 10:14:48

Check out this funny video of Hitler and the housing bubble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmcf4Y3lGM

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-11-20 11:20:27

I was able to understand enough of the German to know that the scene was in the bunker, and the Soviet Red Army was closing in on Berlin…

 
 
Comment by Samuel
2008-11-20 10:15:49

I wonder how that Broward County real estate agent Karen Monsour feels now about her quoted belief that offering anything 25% off or more of the asking price is low balling? (you had an article posted in May that referenced her about low ball offers and how different real estate agents and sellers view them)

 
Comment by KIA
2008-11-20 10:27:21

*yawn* Wake me up when the prices reach a level not seen since 1988.

Comment by Muir
2008-11-20 10:33:19

Nominal or inflation adjusted?

 
 
Comment by Marta
2008-11-20 11:11:27

I love the idea that there was no price bubble in Raleigh/ the Triangle area in general. So if there was no bubble, how come a 1 BR condo in my neighborhood in Chapel Hill is listed for $489k? 3BR condos in the same neighborhood are listed between $600-$700k (this is in Meadowmont, which is the most overpriced and overrated neighborhood in Chapel Hill). And everyone around here thinks that there was no bubble, because “everyone wants to live in Chapel Hill”, and “foreign investors are buying properties here”, and “they can’t build anything else because of zoning restrictions” (yet they are building more condos across the street). LOL.

Comment by Marcus
2008-11-20 12:16:49

Heyyyy… Meadowmont. Spent many an evening downin pints of Rogue Hazlenut Brown in Brixx… Didn’t live in that overinflated neighborhood though.

 
 
Comment by Ann
2008-11-20 11:35:53

‘I was a stay-at-home mom,’ Holly Adams said. ‘He said, ‘Sign here, sign here,’ and I signed.’”

Please her type is a money sucker. At home mom…my a$$. She I am sure had a nanny, a housekeeper, the kiddies looking like dolls and went shopping more than changing a diaper…

Amazing how they are the victim after the “fake Donald Trump life,” is over….let’s see how long it takes her to find another sucker..I mean husband…

Have a friend in the same situation. Bought 5 mill in properties, and hubby “made” her sign(Of course she was the one running around telling everyone about every piece of property that they owned)…waiting to see how long before the word “divorce.” enters the picture..buddy of mine is a attorney..his says divorces are up..number one reason..money!

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-20 13:01:20

There’s gonna be a glut of money sucking bimbos. Bimbos for everyone, man and woman! Sweet!

Think there’s a gold-digger oversupply? We need MCD to hurry up and destroy gold-digger supply through more Big Macs.

ROFL.

 
 
Comment by Steve Jones
2008-11-21 22:11:41

All of the Florida peninsula is basically a sandbar jutting into the sea. It’s a great place to be in the winter, but the rest of the year it IS a hot, humid, flat, sometimes swampy, bug-infested hellhole.

 
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