November 25, 2008

Bits Bucket For November 25, 2008

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406 Comments »

Comment by wmbz
2008-11-25 05:21:35

So how’s this new plan going to work? Make loans available to people with marginal, poor credit or no credit. These fools are going to keep chasing their tails. I don’t know anyone with good credit that would have a problem getting a loan if they wanted to borrow. My credit lines have not been cut. Just another waste of time plan, that is doomed to fail, on the road to bankrupting America.

Paulson to unveil facility to boost consumer loans: report…
(Reuters) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson plans to announce on Tuesday the formation of a program to increase the availability of auto loans, student loans and credit cards, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing people familiar with the matter.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4AO1DB20081125

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-11-25 05:45:05

“I don’t know anyone with good credit that would have a problem getting a loan if they wanted to borrow.”

Nor do I. That’s the thing that’s so amazing about all this, they keep saying that “people with good credit can’t get loans”, and, well, I just don’t see that at ALL. My credit lines are up, my Acura dealer calls me about every month to offer me some insanely low (1.9% was the last offer, IIRC) rate to come in and buy a new car. I get solicitation after solicitation offering low interest home loans (and HELOCs). What’s the problem here?

I have a feeling that the defination of “good credit” is being conscripted by these morons. If your idea of “good” is anyone with over a 500, then, yes, I suppose you could see some significant cutbacks in lending. However, my defination of good is >720, and, in that space (at least personally) I see nothing but low interest rates, high credit lines, and attractive credit offers. I don’t see the problem.

I’d like to hear the experience of others; are you seeing pullbacks in credit lines?

And, also, I suppose it’s important to mention, I DON’T consider requiring a downpayment “tight credit”!!

Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 06:39:52

I can also qualify for any loan I want but choose not to. My credit limit with chase is 25k, which I will never use unless I have to. Also, the junk mail offers keep comming. I see no problems with getting credit.

Comment by ButImNotDeadYet
2008-11-25 08:28:23

I think you guys are missing it.

Credit offers are now being differentiated by zip code. So, if you live in a part of the country where there have not been huge numbers of foreclosures and credit card defaults, then you are awash in credit offers.

If, on the other hand, you live someplace like Las Vegas, or Stockton CA where there have been huge default rates, then credit lending has been severely curtailed even for credit-worthy customers.

I think this plan is designed to help out the “sand states” (FL, CA, AZ and NV) to try to keep the economy going somewhat in those locations. Tightened credit standards have ground the economy to a halt in those locations.

I’m not sure I agree with this initiative. The “sand states” have already cost us HUGE as a nation due to irresponsible borrowing and spending habits. Propping up those habits with additional funding strikes me as throwing good money after bad…

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Comment by John
2008-11-25 08:39:06

Unfortunately, that is not true. I know Mike Fink lives in my area of South Florida, on the leading edge of the foreclosure boom. I probably get about half of the 0% credit offers I did during the boom which actually lets me go on vacation for 3 days now without completely filling my mail box. There is no credit crunch for anyone with decent credit down here.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2008-11-25 08:59:50

My home address is in Phoenix. I just got a 0% (for 6 months) Master card with $15,000. Add that to 4 other credit cards I have. My credit card debt is manageble, less than half of 1% of my net worth. And I get frequent flier miles.

I have probably $60,000 total limits if I want to live like there’s no tomorrow.

What the Falk? I agree with the original poster on this thread. The government is reinflating the economy. They want gold to go above $5,000 per ounce.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 09:03:13

I also live in CA, Bakersfield to be exact. I really think they are trying to loosen-up lending to the spend thrifts that have over extended themselves already. They have to target those types that will spend it immediately to get the money circulating. Like i said, the ones left that qualify will not put themselves into that situation because of what they see happening to others around them.

 
Comment by lanotary
2008-11-25 10:00:54

I live in the L.A. area and am signing plenty of loan docs lately, plenty of 3% down no money in savings, but they do qualify off of income, albeit high ratios through FHA financing. I don’t see tight credit either. Granted the standards are higher then they were a few years ago, as you actually have to produce w-2’s and pay stubs (gasp!!) But it’s not as though loans aren’t available. It’s more work to qualify people, but we’re doing it. I just think that the fed and washington is so disconnected from what’s really going on that they don’t get it. They don’t get that what is available right now is “healthy” credit, for people that have a shot at repaying their credit obligations.

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 13:17:36

It’s just another sign that the PTB STILL DON”T GET IT !!

It’s not a lending crisis…….it’s a “parasites have killed their host” crisis.

The regular working guy hasn’t seen any REAL income increases for 8 years, while costs were going up on everything. Nothing they have been anouncing fixes that in any way.

I would like to go out and buy a new car, and have been getting plenty of “zero interest rate” offers to do so.

But I can’t/won’t go in the hole 30G’s to do so……especially as it looks like a lot more people (including myself) will be shown the door before this is over.

 
Comment by peter m
2008-11-25 13:25:46

“live in the L.A. area and am signing plenty of loan docs lately, plenty of 3% down no money in savings, but they do qualify off of income, albeit high ratios through FHA financing. I don’t see tight credit either”

On LA datquick i am seeing an upsurge in sales of homes in the lower margin areas- those areas where prices have dropped down to average $200-250,000. Look in areas such as palmcaster, pomona, norwalk, IE which have seen price % drops of 50-60%. They are pit zones but folks are buying them. Maybe re-speculation, maybe via FHA- backed 3 % down. U can probably just have an average steady wage job and get a cheapy for $200,000 or less, and with $5-$6.000 down. Very doable even for a $10,00 per hr imigrant laboror or blue collar trade person especially in they have a co-family member to help with qualifying on income .

Lower prices do get the sales up, but U have to live in an LA marginal area, and i am putting ‘Marginal’ nicely here.

 
Comment by Earl The Vagabond
2008-11-25 17:40:18

” U can probably just have an average steady wage job and get a cheapy for $200,000 or less, and with $5-$6.000 down. Very doable even for a $10,00 per hr imigrant laboror…”

195k loan on 21k income is doable? Yeah.. 9x income has always been an accepted target zone around here…

“U” might want to double check your math.

$200k is STILL A LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-11-25 18:31:53

We are doing this damn swimming pool thing and because of the economy we considered financing part of the pool cost. (I would like the bank to share any jobloss risk ;) )

In the end, we decided just to pay for it out of savings. To get the loan I would have to have pay stubs, and explain why I have changed jobs twice in the last 4 months, run around registering the release of lien for the second mortgage that we paid off after 2 months, and copy the survey, and find a deed and…

For a HELOC the credit union wanted:
copy of deed, proof of HO insurance, statement from mortgage company showing current balance, appraisal less than 1 year old, title search and filing fees “WILL be applicable”, and no other liens but first mortgage.

Shoot, and you are going to charge me interest too? No deal. ;)

 
 
 
Comment by Little Al
2008-11-25 06:40:03

We who have good credit have already proven we’re not foolish and taking whatever offer will allow us to make an expenditure above our means for the sake of vanity.

Comment by skroodle
2008-11-25 07:29:47

I think you right, its the “howmuchamonth” crowd that they are trying to get to cut loose and buy more stuff. Unfortunately, I think the “howmuchamonth” crowd have reached their limit.

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Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 09:40:46

No, they attempting to convert deadbeats into homuchamonths. But deadbeats are immune to such trickery. That’s how they remain deadbeats.

 
 
 
Comment by parrish dave
2008-11-25 06:44:21

I’m seeing the same here. Constant bombardment of credit offers, sending me checks to use on credit cards (yeah right, I really want to borrow on cards), cheap home equity offers (and we rent !!). Regular beggings from car dealers. I have seen NO credit contraction amongst people who can afford to pay back.

Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-25 08:19:20

Didn’t I just hear swifty lazar tell people Not to save money to rescue the economy?
Make it stop now.

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Comment by milkcrate
2008-11-25 18:11:49

Been said elsewhere but I am moved to chime in:
How in the world is an economic stimulus “package” designed to promote consumer spending, whether houses, cars or facial cream, going to help a nation overleveraged, overborrowed, and overflowing in its own selfishness and vanity? Hmmmm?
One rule enforced in my household: TV ads are muted, which keeps kindling desires for rubbish from enflaming, the emotions which lead to GIMMEE, I WANT, and, my favorite, I NEED.
Needs.
How did we get so turned around?
When my ancestors on my mom’s side came here from England to establish a Quaker hamlet, listen up now, the first winter they… lived… in… a… cave. It was winter, no time for barnraising in eastern Pa.

 
 
Comment by redhead68
2008-11-25 10:32:28

I have to disagree about the credit pull-back. I haven’t seen near as many offers in recent months as in the past, despite excellent credit, ~795. Additionally, my spouse and I have extremely low debt, ~$40k on a mortgage we’ll have paid off in about twelve months; ~$25k in emergency savings; ~$750k in investments (plummeting daily); and ~$135k in annual income. We live in an extremely stable, upper-middle class neighborhood with low turnover and minimal foreclosures.

The fact is, banks should be knocking down our door to get us to borrow money, but they’re not. The credit crisis is real.

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Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 04:04:56

From San Diego, California:

We’ve made a couple of expensive purchases in the past few months, and credit was readily available — we make the initial purchase on credit then pay it off before interest is due.

There is NO credit crisis. The credit is flowing freely to those who can pay it off, and even to those who are marginally qualified (seeing those low-down FHA mortgages with high DTI ratios are still available, and you can get a “gift” from the seller for the 3% down, last thing I read).

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Comment by Crash and Burn
2008-11-25 06:56:29

I’d like to hear the experience of others; are you seeing pullbacks in credit lines?

I pay my credit card bill in full when I get it. Thet call me at the credit card company a deadbeat. However I get an offer or two a day for new cards and my favorite is those blank checks they send you.

Two months ago I was comming back home and a gravel truck made a left turn in front of me. Long story short my Acura was totaled. I called my insurance company and got them the police reports. Cut me my check in three weeks. A month later USAA sent me a $50,000 loan check towards the car of my choise. Called them up and politely refused their offer. Yesterday I got another loan check for the same amount.

If you don’t need it they want to lend it to you. If you do need it you are hosed. Life goes on.

Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 07:20:34

“A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back the minute it begins to rain.”
Mark Twain.

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 10:36:16

It’s a relief to see bankers acting like bankers for a change!!

 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-11-25 12:42:06

The ‘junk’ card applications have gone away, but I get Amex Gold and platinum offers from Chase all the time.

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Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-25 06:56:32

A good friend went into Harley the other day. Long story short. not only were they going to give him 100% financing on the bike, they were going to allow him to go 5K over the purchase price to throw in accesories.

This friend of mine may have “good credit”, but as the commercial goes, he’s in debt up to his eyeballs.

Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 07:12:35

he’s in debt up to his eyeballs.

You posted it before I did. +1

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Comment by rms
2008-11-25 08:25:58

“A good friend went into Harley the other day. Long story short. not only were they going to give him 100% financing on the bike, they were going to allow him to go 5K over the purchase price to throw in accesories.”

My brother works at one of these Mega-HD dealerships, and they can count on at least one flake every day who needs $25k of credit to enable an upward move within the cult. In the past these dealers had recourse on their loans, but today they are sold to some pension plan; wall street magic.

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Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 10:37:37

RE: A good friend went into Harley the other day. Long story short. not only were they going to give him 100% financing on the bike, they were going to allow him to go 5K over the purchase price to throw in accesories.

Harley’s in deep doo-doo-save for it’s lack of debt.

$75 stock down into the $$$ teens with a bad winter coming.

The average age of purchasers was 47-precisely the demographic group who has seen it’s 401k’s trashed.

New dealer’s built major Taj Mahal facilities accommodative to fat times and now the floor has caved in.

No much demand for a $20k discretionary purchase in a Depression economy.

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Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 07:05:38

I have a hypothesis:

We have a shortage of true Primes. Many former Primes squandered their hard-earned 720 FICO’s in the Great MEW-Escalade-QE2-Granite Countertop-Vacation Cabin Frenzy of 2003-2008. They are now “in debt up to their eyeballs,” to the point where they owe so much ($200-$300K) that their FICO dropped. As a result, there are many fewer 720 FICO’s, making the remaining primes all the more coveted.

The banks figure that if you still have a 720 FICO after this disaster, then you, you smart boy, probably watched the Frenzy from the sidelines. If you passed on the Frenzy, you probably have CASH.

They need your liquid cash, down payment and monthly, and they need it bad. Hence the royal treament.

Comment by WT Economist
2008-11-25 07:58:45

(We have a shortage of true Primes. Many former Primes squandered their hard-earned 720 FICO’s in the Great MEW-Escalade-QE2-Granite Countertop-Vacation Cabin Frenzy of 2003-2008.)

Right. My view of “subprime is contained” was there were those who were subrprime when they got the loans, and others who became subprime because of the loans.

What good is credit in this environment, however, if you already have everything worth borrowing for (ie. a paid off house)? Those who borrow for short term spending have already done it to death.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-11-25 09:15:44

WT Economist,

Nail? Yes? Meet coffin.

Just like a retail stockbroker in the 90’s tried to put practically every client they could get their hands on into a margin account ( when they’d tapped out all their investable liquidity ) so did mortgage brokers reach deep into everyone’s wonderful FICO.

At some point the “2nd home market” over-extended a whole swath of formerly decent borrowers into the subprime fold.

“Sure we could go with a full-doc loan but that takes time, you don’t want to be out-bid do you?”

Not to say everything else is just so much fluff, but the last few posts really frame the debate and define the problem.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-25 09:09:03

oxide,

During “the boom times” I tried to make that point until I was blue in the face. Evidently, people “with great credit” don’t like to hear the notion that they’re being played?

Anyway, the broader point is that all this credit that is still so “widely available” for them, is that it is ALL for their own PERSONAL consumption. Getting credit to buy a Harley is one thing, getting credit to buy a Harley DEALERSHIP these days is quite another!

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Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 10:10:07

We ALL tried to make that point until we were blue. I was screaming that paying off Target toothpaste at $10 minimum a month does not a McMansion make.

And yes, it appears that the credit only goes for consumption, small business loans need not apply. Small business is stuck in the cracks between supply side econ and demand side econ. If Joe the Plumber is any indication, looks like Obama will put small business into demand side. We don’t know yet.

 
 
Comment by redhead68
2008-11-25 10:39:52

As I wrote earlier… true prime here, and I haven’t seen any offers in months.

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Comment by Shizo
2008-11-25 17:41:32

Put your name into “lendingtree.com” and see what happens.

 
 
 
Comment by Wheezer
2008-11-25 08:02:27

Excellent credit here. My credit card limit was raised (again!) and interest rate lowered, and I just qualified for a low interest auto loan with no problem.

Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-11-25 13:01:10

My FICO was 777 last December. I qualified for a 0% 36-month loan on my brand-new Mazda which I got for $300 below invoice. Not sure how things would go today though.

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Comment by cactus
2008-11-25 08:09:04

A person I work with bought a car no problem on credit, hes preparing for bankruptcy and wants to use his good credit before it goes bad, walks from his house etc. He almost is out of money I suggested he fund his IRA with whats left.

Comment by rms
2008-11-25 08:30:52

“A person I work with bought a car no problem on credit, hes preparing for bankruptcy and wants to use his good credit before it goes bad…”

Not a shred of shame either. :)

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 09:16:17

Why should he have shame?

It’s the system. I’d do the same if I was near bankruptcy.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-25 10:30:43

Precisely.

The system is currently founded on the notion of “take what you can and screw everyone else.” As jobs vanished and everything else goes fall down, how can those in charge be surprised when the “little people” are copying their masters - looting and lying their way through life?

 
Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 04:39:14

…how can those in charge be surprised when the “little people” are copying their masters - looting and lying their way through life?
——————

Exactly. Just last night, I suggested to a friend — who lost her job and has been struggling with debt for many years — that she and her husband buy all they needed to buy and declare BK in addition to staying in their home for as long as possible without paying anything.

Before anyone flames me, I have never defaulted on any loans, have no debts and have lived within my means for a long time. Based on what the govt is doing, I am one stupid, f’d up moron. Since it’s too late for me to get the govt cheese (been renting for years because we were being prudent), might as well see some friends enjoy the goodies Paulson & friends are passing around.

Sure hope the govt is happy with the results they’re going to see. They’ve absolutely f’d those of us who try to do the right thing.

 
 
Comment by Dave
2008-11-25 08:47:31

I have a friend who did exactly the same in the last month.

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Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 09:11:41

And i have a nephew that did exactly the same last year. Maxed out the cards on toys and got one last loan for a boat before he went into bankruptcy.

Does the Government really need to wonder why these Banks wont lend?

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 09:23:47

I have a friend that did that as well.

Evidently, there is a lag between filing for bankruptcy it hitting your credit report. He filed and turned in the keys to his leased car and ran down to the dealership and bought a new Accord.

He even kinda talked down to me about driving my 6 year old paid off vehicle.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 10:42:20

“He even kinda talked down to me about driving my 6 year old paid off vehicle.”

What an *ssh*t.

One of my predictionsfor the coming economic period is an end to this kind of thinking. The new austerity will teach people the difference between looking rich and being rich. Or at least, I hope it will.

 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-25 11:30:40

What, he put little to nothing down and expects he’ll get to keep the car after going BK? I’m surprised that BK judges don’t look at this behavior and force them to liquidate everything, regardless if they have equity in it or not. And someone mentioned a boat. A boat? How on earth would they be allowed to keep that?

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Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 13:03:36

Bantering Bear, I have been looking for an answer to that same question you ask and have yet to find one. The more these kind of people get away with, the worse the situation will be. I think they hear how their friends were able to pull things like this off and then do the same to get their share of the take. Truly Sickening.

 
Comment by cactus
2008-11-25 18:49:08

“What, he put little to nothing down and expects he’ll get to keep the car after going BK? I’m surprised that BK judges don’t look at this behavior and force them to liquidate everything, regardless if they have equity in it or not.”

His wife works for a couple of Lawyers so hes doing whats allowed by law. I think 4K equity in a car is all thats allowed. So he bought a new car and makes sure he does not have over the legal limit of equity, no major purchases within 6 months of filing and hes doing something with his bank accounts switching them around.

 
Comment by Mike in Carlsbad
2008-11-25 23:33:07

I have young friends who are gaming the system too. One came up with a bogus accident on his BMW (smashed up the bumper and some other minor scratches) insurance cuts him a $9000 check, he calls his buddy at the BMW dealership, gets a new bumper (some M5 upgrade he says) and some other parts grand total was $1000 with paint. Pockets a quick 8gs. He is the same guy who perpetually refinanced his condo during the boom times, then did one last ninja refi just at the end, only works cash jobs so he doesn’t have to pay child support to his daughter, always has some scam going. Its just amazing how there is no checks in the system that allows him to do this all the time. The guy had no job, yet the bank is giving him all this money during the boom, then after he maxes out every credit card, he gets to walk away from his condo which is now worth 150k and maybe live there free another year and declare BK and on to the next scam. He can make more scamming than I can save up for in a decade of hard work. Got another friend who collects disability from the government, some scam where he said the Navy hurt his back, make almost as much as me just sitting around all day and partying.

Makes me sick I work so hard, save, go to college, play by the rules and struggle while so many in society are just leeches.

 
 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 05:48:28

They should just give us the money directly, so we’ll spend it. We are “consumers”, not citizens.

Comment by Blue Skye
2008-11-25 06:05:08

You have to put your alien translator on when you read this stuff. This is not to make the life of the consumer easier. It is to take bad credit card loans off the books of failing banks.

Government of the banks, by the banks and for the banks.

Comment by pressboardbox
2008-11-25 06:11:28

Are you the only other human being who can see through this ruse? Apparently so. Henry Paulson must be the best hypnotist on the planet. What a bunch of mindless zombies now inhabit the North American region of the world.

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Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 08:11:42

Sounds like he got the special sunglasses from the Rowdy Roddy Piper cult classic They Live.

 
 
 
Comment by navygator
2008-11-25 07:35:12

“They should just give us the money directly, so we’ll spend it. We are “consumers”, not citizens.”

Has any one seen the economic “infomercial” about how giving $100 to a person is not as good as using $100 to build bridges and other infrastructure. I saw a clip of it last night on CBS around 7pm… this may have been DC local news? It was done with pretty crayon drawings around video boxes with an “expert economist” explaining how if you give a consumer $100 he will save a little and spend most of it. In 2 years the $100 will have turned into $125 boosting the economy only a little bit. But if you use that same $100 to build a bridge, in 10 years that $100 will be worth $200 (I can’t remember the exact figure.. just that it was more than the $125). I have been looking for the source of this video all morning and wondering if it was put out by Obama’s new team? I am also curious about why they used different time periods to compare the increase in $$$.

Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 09:29:00

There are still useful infrastructures built by the WPA in use today (Hoover Dam, Golden Gate Bridge, etc).

$100 of imported crap won’t last a year. $100 million in bonus money to CitiBank executives won’t last through January.

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Comment by jsocal
2008-11-25 10:09:46

but that $100 to build the bridge actually cost taxpayers $200 because the $100 was BORROWED to begin with, and as a result $200 of capital was pulled out of the system through taxes and bond sales. And of course most of the $100 went to pay government worker salaries before anything actually worked its way through the system to purchase materials and pay construction workers.

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 13:28:21

And if that bridge is a make-work project, in a place that doesn’t need a new bridge, built solely to give people something to do, you can make the case that the bridge is worth ZERO.

 
Comment by NevadaGal
2008-11-25 20:02:54

Skip,

Actually, Hoover Dam was started before FDR was elected. It was a competitive bid won by the “6 Companies” a consortium of big construction companies.

Came in underbudget too.

Though completed ahead of time, it was during the FDR admin. that it was dedicated.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 10:11:22

So, are you suggesting that when I want to drive across a river I should drive over on top of a citizen instead of a bridge?
Well, *shrugs* if you say so….

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-25 10:33:30

Hehehe… are you channeling Paulson, Olympiagal? :-)

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2008-11-25 12:34:10

You *are* driving on the backs of citizens. Taxpayers, specifically.

 
 
 
Comment by peter m
2008-11-25 07:53:33

“They should just give us the money directly, so we’ll spend it. We are “consumers”, not citizens.”

better yet why not elevate consumerism into a state- sponsored Religion/cult. The impulse to spend on bling seems to be about the only thing which motivates some folks, almost an addiction.
If US wants to get folks to open their wallets and boost the economy then they should just mail out the checks for $1000. now. After all It is only phony worthless printed $

Comment by Seattle Renter
2008-11-25 16:18:50

“better yet why not elevate consumerism into a state- sponsored Religion/cult.”

Where have you been the last 10 or 20 years? We worship at the altar of ATM in the temple of BOA…..

:)

SR

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Comment by jeff saturday
2008-11-25 05:56:29

Exactly! Making bad loans is what got us here. I too can get a loan for anything I want , problem is I don`t want a loan to buy an overpriced house or an American made vehicle that will finance union workers to sit home and get paid after their plant closed.
[ I have bought and paid for six brand new Ford trucks in the last 9 years but No More ! I will look into something made by Toyota in the U.S. for my next vehicle ]

Comment by polly
2008-11-25 07:09:47

I don’t know why you had to get 6 trucks in the last decade, whether it was choice or problems, but my Ford Taurus is a great car. I bought it used when it was four years old and it is still going strong 7 years later. I’m afraid I’m not going to help a lot of workers by driving it until it drops, but that is not my primary purpose in owning a car - it is to have basic transportation and advertising/marketing isn’t going to change my mind.

Comment by jeff saturday
2008-11-25 07:40:33

I own a buisness , no problems still have 4 on the road , 2 traded in with 150,000 miles on them.

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Comment by CrackerJim
2008-11-25 08:21:59

“I own a buisness , no problems still have 4 on the road , 2 traded in with 150,000 miles on them.”

It sounds as if you have had a good experience with the Fords. Why are you changing to TyYota?
We have been using Ford for 24 years in business and we have had excellent service throughout that time period with a multitude of vehicles cycled through over that time.
Our present fleet is:
2 Expeditions
1 Fusion
2 Taurus
1 Ranger
1 F450
3 F250
25 F150

The F150s are the bread and butter vehicles and we regularly get 150k with rare major problems. The vehicles are driven by an assortment of people in a construction environment so the duty is harsh.

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2008-11-25 15:45:20

Jim
No problem with the trucks , do miss the straight six they had on the F150 . My problem is with management and the union , evidently they run their company like our government runs social security and I don`t see why I should have to pay a workers pension that retired 10 years before the truck I buy rolls off the line. I always thought I was doing the right thing for America and American workers buying Ford products , but now bail this and bail that threats of massive job losses if they don`t get their billions , go back to Detroit you didn`t beg good enough. Bail all of them , I will buy a Toyota where at least the man or woman working on it get paid a decent wage and I assume appreciate it.

 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-11-25 09:42:03

My Toyota Tacoma is 13 years ols, 220,000 miles, still runs like new. I bought it new off the lot. I’ll drive the thing until the wheels fall off or me and my Wife buy our house and see how much we have leftover. In regards to the Taurus, these cars have a tendency to blow head gaskets in and around the 75-100k mark. I know because it seems like everyone I know who had/has one had the same issue. I’d recommend changing the engine coolant at least every 45-50k. That usually works pretty well as a preventative measure.

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Comment by peter m
2008-11-25 09:59:55

My Toyota Tacoma is 13 years ols, 220,000 miles, still runs like new

I have 160,000 on my 2002 ex cab tacoma black beauty and haven’t had a single problem yet. Now with gas almost below $2 a gal I will go back to road warrioring all over LA.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-11-25 11:40:19

I purchased a new Toyota Tacoma in 2003. Great truck with zero problems, but proved to be too small for my lifestyle. I had space concerns prior to the purchase, but decided to try it out anyway. After 2 years, I sold it to a friend and bought a brand new full sized GMC Sierra. The POS has been in the shop more than ANY vehicle I have ever owned, with some MAJOR problems. As it turns out, the most expensive vehicle purchase I ever made was the worst. Would love to sell it (it’s nearly paid off), but nobody wants it.

 
Comment by MrBubble
2008-11-25 13:42:21

I don’t know if anyone mentioned this yesterday about more failed banks. Hope that the html is OK.

“Now with gas almost below $2 a gal I will go back to road warrioring all over LA.”

Won’t that just help to drive the price back up, giving more of your money (70 bn/yr) to support petro-dollars regimes and terrorists and 630 bn/yr to other foreign powers, befoul the atmosphere and rally the “drill, baby, drill” crowd to take a big dump in our own backyard?

I apologize for coming on too strong. I just feel that the roots of many of our biggest problems can be discovered through the lens of fossil fuel dependence and this tragedy of the commons/”f*ck it, it’s cheap” attitude: capital flight; US auto-industry obsolescence; rising health care costs through childhood obesity, heart-disease, asthma, etc.; job loss; atmospheric catastrophe; obesity; ocean collapse, etc.

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-11-25 08:18:37

“I have bought and paid for six brand new Ford trucks in the last 9 years”

Thank you for supporting union labor.

 
Comment by sfbayeng
2008-11-25 10:23:28

I the first owner of a 4dr 1996 Ford Explorer with 220K miles that is still running great. I intend to keep it running until it drops dead. So far, it has not needed any major repair, other than small transmission work at about 150K.

In addition, I’ve an after market third bench seat (NTHSA safety rated) that can be bolted to the frame. I’ve taken 3 kids (up to 4ft tall) and 5 adults on long trips. Kids have a blast and enjoyed the trips. I strap a big cargo pouch (Kangaroo) on the top and we are set.

Lot of fond memories with this SUV…

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 10:47:04

RE: I will look into something made by Toyota in the U.S. for my next vehicle ]

Yup…that Toyota Tacoma with the 4.0L motor and 6-speed standard transmission is about all there is.

Ford screwed their F-150 when they dumped the availability of a standard.

And the Triton motors are a disaster.

My mechanic refuses to work on them because of the horrific access.

Drove a fairly new rental 1500 Dodge RAM crew-cab recently to go pick up some funiture.

What a gaz-hogging, gear-hunting, worthless POS.

Comment by SFC
2008-11-25 13:39:05

2004 Dodge Ram Hemi. Been to the shop once in five years, for something minor.

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Comment by Mike in Carlsbad
2008-11-25 23:49:01

During the recent gas crisis Dollar Rent a Car “upgraded” me to a Jeep SUV Liberty since everyone rented out all their compacts. WOW what a piece of junk, and it was almost brand new, awful steering, terrible suspension, clunky auto transmission and the gas hog it was. The interior was crap, nothing ergonomic, the materials were cheap, hard, and the stereo system was pitiful and I couldn’t figure out the radio in an entire week. I know why we shouldnt bail out the Detroit 3, their products suck, Bob Nardelli who ran Home Depot into the ground now heads up a PRIVATE auto company and even HE was begging for money. Absolute hogwash.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-25 07:04:55

With Black Friday looming did you expect anything less? Can’t have the stock market crashing heading into Thanksgiving. I expect to see them pump up the market to above 9K before we head into this weekend. I’m sure most of us expected something like this going down at just the right moment. That being said, i don’t think it’s going to work. I think most consumers have already decided what they’re going to spend.

Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 07:36:26

yes, I have decided what I’m going to spend and it equals a big fat zero. After they drained my wallet this past summer (and I have yet to see most prices come back down) I refuse to give them one penny of my money. I have made it very clear to my family that I expect the same from them.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-25 10:39:54

Keep the sheeple distracted with shiny, useless baubles as the last jobs vanish and all our money passes the event horizon of the credit black hole.

The blowup is scheduled for after January 20th - can’t tarnish the legacy of The Decider, now can we?

 
Comment by Mike in Carlsbad
2008-11-25 23:52:35

wait until the new fund managers take over on Jan 1 because all their predecessors got the axe, first thing they will do is dump all the old guys shares, billions of shares all being sold in January…. no matter what happens this month, I expect new lows reached into 2009

 
 
Comment by FP
2008-11-25 09:21:14

I haven’t seen my credit as of late but the last time I saw it I was a little surprised it was at 675 on one agency. The other had me at 650, and the other had me at 700. So which one is it? Anyways even with those scores, I have a little over $100 credit line on mostly 2 credit cards but I have a third one as well. I keep a 2500 balance minimum on both cards (to keep CC companies happy), but I usually charge about 25,000 a month on business stuff.

Well, getting auto loan is no problem. When you put money down on a new car, I don’t foresee any problem even if you have a score 500. This is the same if you are going to buy a house. As for credit cards, you are in the mercy of your credit report.

I really don’t know who the GOVT is targeting when they say, they want to free up consumer loans. Do they mean they want to continue encouraging 0 finance no income verification category? Or is it a ploy to let these institutions off the hook for bad consumer loans and fatten their balance sheets before Paulson reitres. Someone needs to tell Paulson pack up and leave office already.

Comment by Wheezer
2008-11-25 09:55:52

Pleading ignorance here. Why does keeping a balance make the cc companies happy? How does that benefit you?

I’m just curious. Mine is paid off each month, but I don’t put near the amount you described on.

Comment by FP
2008-11-25 11:18:57

Wheezer,

No answer to it but I just do it. Giving money away, probably but the CC companies have been very helpful for a number of things that I do for my business. I had a credit card awhile back and paid it off at the end of the month everytime. For some reason I had bad service and they NEVER allowed me to increase my credit. Never new why but I changed to these two CC and so far they provide better service and increased my credit upon my request. One was about two months ago. Go figure.

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Comment by Wheezer
2008-11-25 12:42:40

Thanks for the answer. There are some things I am perfectly willing to pay a premium on in order to get good service.

 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-11-25 09:55:55

FP,

Well said. Even in the worst of times in the past, anyone that put 25% down on a home didn’t really even NEED good credit at all! ( Of course now we’re applying the same to auto loans? )

I don’t think a lot of people are making the connection that having access to consumer credit for personal primary consumption ( not second homes, not “real estate projects” not groovy retail start-ups! ) A lot of us don’t seem to realize that the endless credit solicitations is just a numbers game.

Just because you’re getting calls and emails for credit extensions isn’t to say you’ll be approved?

 
Comment by rms
2008-11-25 12:28:56

“I really don’t know who the GOVT is targeting when they say, they want to free up consumer loans.”

My guess is the faux-rich “your check is in the mail” small-business owners and their “live for SAT night” employees; both are exploitative losers. Our local Real Estate rag is just loaded with high end housing that local wages could never support, and there is always that tell-tale new pickup truck with a ladder rack out front that tells me so. Living in the now is what it’s all about.

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2008-11-25 20:05:46

FICO scores will soon be irrelevant. Fair Isaacs was the first to develop a modeled credit picture for consumer debt risk evaluation. All three credit agencies followed with similar scoring criteria. It seemed to work for the past decade but it will all come crashing down, as the scoring model is skewed towards on-time payments regardless of actual financial capacity.

Alt-A mortgagees and Pay-Option arm failures in the coming year will collapse the current FICO scoring system. Out-of-touch with financial reality is an understatement.

I was stunned to watch as my FICO score dropped nearly 100 points to 725 when I paid off and closed two credit card accounts and an auto loan. My status - home nearly paid off on a thirty year fixed mortgage - substantial fluid savings - no heloc - substantial retirement savings - no other consumer debt - long term career.

I only know of my score because I have credit inquiries monitored to protect myself from stolen identity possibilities.

The system is a joke! I guess I don’t care. I don’t need their credit but there is an obvious flaw in the system that makes folks believe that debt is good and rewards debt. Soon to end!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-25 10:17:53

But if they don’t make loans to people with bad credit who can’t afford anything, how can they drive prices up until people with good credit and savings can no longer afford anything? That’s the goal - get everyone in debt!

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-25 12:12:50

If that’s the goal, what’s the end game? Why would ‘they’ want everyone in debt?

IMO, its not the goal so much as the necessity. They’ve backed themselves into a corner over the years by pushing more and more product such that when lending goes from being a torrent to a trickle, they’re screwed.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-11-25 14:49:22

EXACTLY !!!

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Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 05:27:41

So somebody please ’splain me how this would work. I put ten grand on a card, or borrow for a car, or whatever and the loan gets paid back twice, right? Once when I pay it back to the lending institution and again when the taxpayers pay it back. Gotta love it. Here’s Treasury and the banksters: “One for you and one for me…”

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/paulson-to-unveil-consumer-lending-plan/259759

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:33:52

“I put ten grand on a card, or borrow for a car, or whatever and the loan gets paid back twice, right?”

Apparently the plan is for the loan to get repaid with newly-printed dollars.

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 08:03:45

Hank Paulson + Banksters = Hanksters.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 08:49:06

Brother, could you spare a Trillion?

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Comment by wmbz
2008-11-25 05:34:46

By the end of B.O.’s first and only term, he will have made the idiot Bush look like the Hetty Green of finance.

Obama: Costly stimulus needed to jolt economy…

CHICAGO (Reuters) - President-elect Barack Obama promised on Monday to jolt the faltering U.S. economy with a costly stimulus package next year and introduced the team that will help him navigate the global financial crisis.

Obama, who warned again that the economy would likely get worse before it got better, declined to put a price tag on the two-year stimulus proposal which other Democrats have estimated at hundreds of billions of dollars.

Financial markets fell as traders lamented Obama’s refusal to specify a figure. The president-elect also indicated he had not decided whether to roll back President George W. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts for the wealthy early or simply allow them to expire at the end of 2010 as scheduled.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4AM1QC20081125

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 06:21:37

“…he had not decided whether to roll back President George W. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts…”

Really? I read half dozen times yesterday that the decision was made not to end them early. When was this article written?

Now, IIRC the party of the president elect vigorously objected to those 2001 cuts. But now they want to add new tax cuts for the low and middle wage earners on top of them. So, if one set of tax cuts was a bad idea - then what does that make two sets of tax cuts?

Lastly, what of that little foreign military adventure that has fallen off J6P’s radar screen? Has it suddenly become a cheaper a fiasco? No, of course not.

Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2008-11-25 12:53:48

It *has* become cheaper, in comparison with the far larger cost of the more recent (attempted) financial bailouts.

But my personal theory on the war (I’m going to get slammed for this) is that since the country was so divided, it was necessary for the Feds to spend lavishly to, in effect, buy majority approval for it. Hence the real cost of the war should include not only the military salaries/equipment/supplies, but also spending on Katrina/Medicare part Q/etc./etc.

Whether the war was a “fiasco” in military or foreign policy terms, we can debate on another blog.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-11-25 06:30:17

This is why I disagreed with whoever said before the election that the $700 billion bailout would limit any new spending programs Obama and the Dems would want to propose.

The only thing that has happened is the GOP opened wide the spending barn doors, and their Dem pals are gonna run right through it.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:38:05

For one thing, apparently OB’s economic team has already taken the reins of power. Wasn’t it only a week or so ago when Paulson said “no more TARP”, followed by the Citi bailout this past weekend? Or were the monies used to bail Citi “non-TARP” funds? Me confused…I thunk money was fungible.

Comment by packman
2008-11-25 08:52:52

What most people don’t seem to realize is that there is “Obama’s” team vs. “Bush’s” team. They are one and the same. They just shuffle the players on and off the field at various times - heck sometimes not even shuffling them off the field but just changing their positions. They’re all on the same team, with the same goals - bilk the lower and middle classes (and even competitors in the upper classes) for all they can, primarily via inflation through debt. They go as far as they can without actually inciting revolution.

I would imagine they’re quite gleeful seeing how far they’re able to take it this time with very little resistance. Manufactured panics work wonders on the sheeple.

Comment by packman
2008-11-25 08:54:27

Meant to say “there is no Obama’s team vs. Bush’s team”.

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 06:44:00

I have yet to see criticism of his selection of Geithner, from this blog. Geithner’s hands are filled with blood. He is one of the king pigs and the partisans are strangely silent. A tool is a tool is a tool.

And the crickets keep chirping.

Comment by Muir
2008-11-25 07:21:34

Could you educate us that are less than savvy, or to be more blunt, are right down ignorant, and thus spread enlightenment.
No, seriously, don’t know the guy.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:26:44

Do some research. Check to see how his fingerprints are all over Bear Stearns, AIG, Citi and these other atrocities committed by The Fed. But I’m sure because O picked him he will be just great. O couldn’t be wrong. Could he? Good little drones don’t question their leader.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-11-25 08:10:19

Who would you suggest as a better pick? “Partisans” of either stripe are not going to pick non-interventionists like Ron Paul, so not sure what that comment means. Bailouts are happening all over the world, and I’m not convinced anyone really knows what they’re doing.

Realistically, if the gov’t is going to pursue bailouts then at least having someone who knows where the money is going and how it should be prioritized is better than putting a clueless ideologue into the job (the m.o. of our current prez).

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 08:19:51

Can we wait and see what he does?

Or is that absurd?

(He still has to be confirmed, too.)

 
Comment by Rancher
2008-11-25 08:33:47

He’s a Paulson clone.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 08:41:08

The one tangible that NYCB has forgot about is the idea that this country has been lacking cerebral cortex for 8 long years, as in anything goes-don’t ask-don’t tell-just take.

Our arms, legs, feet and fingers only respond when our brains tell us to do so.

It’s no different in the highest office in the land, and let the results show what happened.

We will soon have a functioning brain on premise @ 1600 Pennsylvania that shows much promise.

A “Plan B”

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2008-11-25 09:03:19

B.O. is the Messiah, you heathen!

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 09:53:32

How’s the view from the Barr, Bill?

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 10:13:27

“The one tangible that NYCB has forgot about is the idea that this country has been lacking cerebral cortex for 8 long years”

That’s why you won’t criticize the Geithner move? Pathetic. Go bloviate yourself.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 10:30:03

The chess board is being reset and you’ve declared the winner and loser of the match not yet played.

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 13:41:43

I voted for Obama, hoping for “change”…”change” (in my definition) meaning that he would do things differently.

His announcements so far look like he is reinstalling the Clinton/Democratic Party Brain Trust. Basically, the same people that got the ball rolling for the “Housing Bubble Economy”

This is not building confidence with me.

 
Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 05:24:52

I’m with you, GSfixer.

We voted for Obama in hopes of seeing the end of Bush (as Reagan’s VP), Bush, Clinton, Bush Clinton regime. Looks like we’re in for more of the same, and yes, I am very disappointed.

Would have voted for Ron Paul, but knew that vote would not have meant anything. Nader would have been wonderful as well, IMHO.

This entire political game sucks!!!

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2008-11-26 17:15:07

One must do some background research on the top contenders. For instance, who is bankrolling them?

The jury is still out on Obama. He just got Paul Volker, who basically is no Ben Bernanke.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2008-11-25 09:52:40

I’m from Europe and I fully agree with NYCityBoy on this; just reading in some international newspapers over the last few years was enough to get an opinion. This Geithner guy gives me the creeps, could be even worse than the Hankster.

CHANGE?? Come on, appointing this guy is shouting out loud that the easy money policy of Greenspun and B-52 Ben will continue with a vengeance.

Also, moving the US War efforts from Iraq to Afghanistan (and who knows Iran) does not look like Change to me either. Good for the people in Iraq, bad for those in Afghanistan and countries around them.

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 10:14:45

It’s good to see some sense from across the pond.

“CHANGE?? Come on, appointing this guy is shouting out loud that the easy money policy of Greenspun and B-52 Ben will continue with a vengeance.”

Bingo!

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-11-25 10:46:42

Obama has brought lots of “change” with Geithner (a Paulson Clone), and the entire collection of Clinton Cronies returning for another term. Hey, we even get She Who Must Not Be Named as Secretary of State. I am sure she will lead with integrity and grace… hahahaha!

As for reseting the chessboard, no, the game is still going on - oh, and the other side gets to change the rules whenever they want. Good luck!

 
Comment by yogurt
2008-11-25 11:35:12

the entire collection of Clinton Cronies returning for another term

Don’t care much for Clinton, I surmise. What part of peace and prosperity didn’t you like?

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2008-11-25 13:04:49

“Don’t care much for Clinton, I surmise. What part of peace and prosperity didn’t you like?”

Could be the military interventions in 60 different countries that posed no threat to us. Or the phoniness of the Enron/Worldcom/dot-com/Y2K hysteria driven stock market bubble.

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2008-11-25 15:02:46

Don’t even bother, he’s a democrat and can do no wrong. Kennedy,FDR,Johnson,Clinton even the one with the brother Billy are sacred icons.

 
 
Comment by Sagesse
2008-11-25 13:48:55

Quote of the day:

“Every responsible individual in this world must know: Central Banks have become asylums for economists that have turned insane, and in their insanity they became money printers.” (Marc Faber)

And frankly, I don’t see that Obama gets it. But who really thinks that he chooses his team?
It may well be the other way round. The team chose him.

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Comment by Frank Hague
2008-11-25 07:27:25

I think most people don’t realize want an integral role that Geithner has played in the disastrous government policies over the past few years. Other than Hank Paulson and Ben Bernake no one has had more input to how the Bush administration has responded to our economic problems.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081208/greider_web

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:35:32

Nonsense. The NY Fed runs the show. Bernanke is a puppet. Geithner has been the real hand at the helm.

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Comment by Frank Hague
2008-11-25 07:48:38

I don’t know enough about the inner workings of the Fed to say if your comment is accurate or not. Regardless of the whether or not Geithner’s culpability is more than Bernake, it is obvious that he has bought into and been an architect of many of the policies that have been utterly disastrous. I hope someone asks him during his confirmation hearings what his role has been in the AIG bailout. Of all of the disastrous decisions that have been made, that has to be the most mystifying. The government is pumping money into a dead company, with no end in sight. Reportedly Geithner was instrumental in deciding how to deal with AIG.

 
 
 
Comment by skroodle
2008-11-25 07:33:44

Are there actually any innocents left on Wall*Street that O could have picked?

When did things change and the Sec of Treasury start having to be a Wall*Street insider?

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 08:16:41

Ask all of the diehard O supporters, then wait for the silence.

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Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 09:57:40

Sec treasury has to be a Wall*Street insider since the day the deregs ran amok and allowed companies to get Too Big To Fail. At the moment, those Too Big To Fail companies have taken the world hostage. Therefore, Obama has to institute painful cleanup policies without angering the fats cats into killing hostages one at a time. To thread that needle, the O-man needs a trusted insider with the nuts&bolts knowledge, the networking value, and the people skills to sell the bitter medicine. Which is why Geithner got the job and Summers did not.

That’s my speculation anyway. :-)

Once this crisis is over in a few years, maybe the Messiah will go all Teddy Roosevelt on the Too Big To Fails.

 
Comment by Incredulous (the original)
2008-11-25 12:35:47

Today Mr. Messiah announced his cutting edge idea for practical public spending to boost the economy long term: helping hospitals modernize to electronic billing, complete with computers supplied by the government. What’s next? Hot and cold running water? I hear there’s a newfangled thing called electricity. I wonder how long it will take, and how much it will cost, to help all Americans take part in this technological revolution.

Mr. Messiah referred to his “weekly” radio address; so I guess he already thinks he’s the President. Combined with his daily press conferences, he should be the stalest new president in history once he assumes his throne.

 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 08:01:28

“I have yet to see criticism of his selection of Geithner, from this blog.”

I’ve taken a number of shots against Geithner on this blog. I have taken note of his various pronouncements over the last year or so.

 
Comment by rms
2008-11-25 08:40:10

“I have yet to see criticism of his selection of Geithner, from this blog.”

He’s above criticism. You can’t tear into this criminals without being banned, message deleted, and tarred an anti-Semite.

 
Comment by packman
2008-11-25 09:00:25

I lost all hope of a non-insider being selected back in August or thereabouts, when Ron Paul lost the nomination.

 
Comment by SUGuy
2008-11-25 09:07:27

Give him a chance. He might just step up become a born again Treasurer and do the right thing. Be positive nycb

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 10:18:35

Oh, I’m positive, alright.

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Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 10:52:25

RE: I have yet to see criticism of his selection of Geithner, from this blog. Geithner’s hands are filled with blood. He is one of the king pigs and the partisans are strangely silent. A tool is a tool is a tool.

He reeks…and the new game ain’t even started.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/25/business/25sorkin.php

 
 
Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 06:52:28

the markets are already shoving obama around. “you better tell us your plans or else” if he gives into them, he will lose the respect from main street. I would sure hate to see this happen before he takes office.

Comment by DinOR
2008-11-25 09:28:42

wmbz,

Great post and thanks for sharing that perspective. What “the boom” really provided was a wealth effect so fantastic that even rank and file Americans could become pre-occupied with challenging the current administration’s e-v-e-r-y move.

Why I’ve never had so many unsolicited and officious lectures from “new & improved soccer moms” while quaffing a $4 Starbucks! With their financial futures assured, they could move on to more ethereal things.

Now that they CAN’T AFFORD a $4 Starbucks ( on credit… ) they’ll blame the current administration.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-11-25 05:52:52

Mention the U.S. Constitution these days and you’ll be laughed at. Or, at least, tolerated as an insignificant fool. But the fact is - the Constitution gives Congress no power to spend tax dollars on “bailouts.” The document does, in Article 1, Section 8, give Congress power “…To establish an Uniform rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:41:14

Whose job is it to make sure the constitution is followed?

Comment by polly
2008-11-25 07:32:33

The judiciary, with the Supreme Court as the final word. See Marbury vs. Madison (1803) which established the principle of judicial review.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 08:49:40

The judiciary has the final word in interpretation, but it’s incumbent upon all three branches to act within Constitutional guidelines and provide oversight for one another.

The legislative branch abdicated its own responsibility to oversee the executive branch (via hearings, impeachment, legislation and the so-called power of the purse) on a number of constitutional issues during the past eight years — executive signing statements, torture, unlawful detentions, habeas corpus, and unlawful surveillance — to name a few examples.

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Comment by polly
2008-11-25 10:14:35

Agreed. The legislature could have done a lot better, and the legislature’s path is a lot faster, though its primarily power is to cause embarassment. The budget constraint is hard to work, especally when you are dealing with funding for troops that are actually in the field. The courts take a lot longer.

As for signing statements, they are a whole other kettle of fish. I am glad I have never bumped up against it (as in no one has ever suggested I look one up or even check to see if one exists) when I have dealt with matters of interpretation of the law. Such a situation could lead to a choice of resignation or violating my oath of office, and while I really like my job, I take that oath ver seriously. As I said, it has never come up, but interpreting based on a presidential signing statement in direct contradiction of the plain language of the statute or documented legislative intent rises to the level of a constitutional violation, IMHO.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 11:18:31

… interpreting based on a presidential signing statement in direct contradiction of the plain language of the statute or documented legislative intent rises to the level of a constitutional violation, IMHO.

I agree completely.

Hopefully your principles won’t be put to the test.

 
Comment by polly
2008-11-25 12:20:27

I think it is quite a bit less likely with a constitutional law professor in office.

And if it did happen, there is always the hope that my union would step up to the plate. I prefer not to have the issue come up at all.

 
 
 
Comment by BubbleViewer
2008-11-25 08:40:21

“Whose job is it to make sure the constitution is followed?”
I see that as the job of each citizen. To me, the fatal flaw of the constitution is that there is no penalty for deviating from it. Personally, I think it should be a death penalty for violating the constitution. If the need is there, the founding fathers put in mechanisms for changing the constitution. But whose job is it? It’s our job!

Comment by CrackerJim
2008-11-25 09:34:07

“Whose job is it to make sure the constitution is followed?”
I see that as the job of each citizen.

How is an individual citizen going to enforce adherence to the Constitution? If the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, and the Judicial Branch all decide (or accept passively) to do things that are deemed “not Constitutional” by intelligent, educated observers, then there is little recourse for the average citizen except the one man-one vote theory.

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Comment by yogurt
2008-11-25 11:39:07

To me, the fatal flaw of the constitution is that there is no penalty for deviating from it

Yes there is. Impeachment.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2008-11-25 09:04:24

Bingo! The Supreme Court has been remarkably and ashamedly silent on the constitutionality of the bailout.

However that being said - their power is limited. The die was cast in 1913 with the creation of the Federal Reserve, which is not subject to Congressional or Constitutional supervision since it’s not officially a government agency.

The treasury is, however, and the court has been lax in its oversight.

Comment by jsocal
2008-11-25 10:19:47

I thought the court couldn’t challenge anything in its own right.
Doesn’t someone have bring a lawsuit?
Who’s brave enough to do so in this panic?

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Comment by polly
2008-11-25 10:33:22

Who has standing to bring it? I don’t know the reference, but I am pretty sure that a taxpayer doesn’t have standing to bring a suit based on the taxes he/she pays being spent on an unconstitutional purpose. Anyone better informed than I?

 
 
 
 
Comment by polly
2008-11-25 06:46:07

Check out the historical expansion of power of the federal government under the commerce clause. It is a fascinating line of cases.

Comment by Muir
2008-11-25 07:22:45

Yes!

 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-11-25 08:14:20

Herr Busch has done more to undermine the Constitutional separation of powers than any president in modern history. Once the so-called “conservatives” started treating it like toilet paper, then the liberals became the de facto defenders. They have their biases just like everyone else.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 05:58:09

So scrap the system, already. Abolish the Fed and the income tax. Ditch the foreign military bases.

One of Bammy’s campaign promises was to conduct a top-down audit of the govmint. Not hearing much about THAT lately.

Comment by Asparagus
2008-11-25 06:02:43

No one seems to care if the money is spent efficiently or effectively, just so long as it’s spent.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 06:13:32

The consumers and the gov’t are now openly feeding off each other’s bad behavior.

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-11-25 06:34:20

The idea is to keep the cash flowing.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:42:44

The best way I can think of to get cash flowing again is to allow asset prices (esp. single family homes) to bottom out at affordable prices. But it seems part of the big plan is to avoid allowing this to occur.

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Comment by combotechie
2008-11-25 07:05:22

The problem is declining asset prices destroys the value of the debt backing those assets. That’s why the banks are screwed.

 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-11-25 07:12:35

What they don’t see as well is that holding prices at their current levels doesn’t help a damn thing. They’ve already dropped far enough that only hyper appreciation (ain’t gonna happen) would get most out of trouble. Might as well let them drop and really get things moving again.

 
Comment by Muir
2008-11-25 07:25:30

“… hyper appreciation (ain’t gonna happen)….”

Sincerely, hope your right… :-(
-

 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 11:52:55

keep the cash flowing

…because transactions are where the fees are?

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Comment by Northeastener
2008-11-25 15:02:42

The idea is to keep the cash flowing.

“The spice must flow”…

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 06:45:48

“One of Bammy’s campaign promises was to conduct a top-down audit of the govmint. Not hearing much about THAT lately.”

Quit that Palmetto. You will distract the Lad from his fantasy.

Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 07:41:24

In the 60 Minutes interview, Obama said he was working on assembling his national security team because transitions are times of vulnerability. I can wait a little longer for the ponies and rainbows, thank you.

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-11-25 08:25:23

Lol, since clearly Bammy hasn’t fixed the economy before taking office, he has broken his campaign promises and demonstrated his overwhelming incompetence. We need a do over so we can get someone much more competent in office…third term for The Decider?

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 11:47:07

I only expect a good try from Bammy, but so far, all I’m seeing is an appointee (Timmy Boy) who is more of the same on the financial front.

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Comment by polly
2008-11-25 06:53:48

Actually I heard about that this morning on the radio. The new budget guy is supposed to look for places to cut to begin paying for the stimulous. Which is sort of an issue, since if you pay for a stimulous by cutting other spending, doesn’t it stop being stimulating? I thought it had to be done with borrowed money or it is just shifting of spending…not that there isn’t room to shift spending to more useful stuff from less useful stuff, but it isn’t really a stimulous.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:13:14

“I thought it had to be done with borrowed money or it is just shifting of spending…”

Expanding the monetary base to pay for stimulus against a backdrop of falling GDP amounts to a taking from those owed fixed dollar obligations, such as retirees on fixed-income pensions.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-11-25 15:41:16

I think Obama should put a 30 cent federal tax on gasoline and make all those escalade owning HELOCer’s pay for the bailouts.

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Comment by polly
2008-11-25 09:48:40

Many appologies for my horrible spelling. Still, the sentiment remains.

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 10:56:38

RE: The new budget guy is supposed to look for places to cut to begin paying for the stimulous.

Uh, oh…no more individual physical therapist, speech therapist, speical tutor, and 3 teacher aides for Liam the Down Syndrome kid.

 
 
Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-11-25 07:12:28

“So scrap the system, already. Abolish the Fed and the income tax. Ditch the foreign military bases.”

Just focus on the Fed a while.

Historically speaking, those who have tried the hardest to rein in the Fed, find themselves politically dead. If not physically dead.

Human greed is not limited to strictly money.
The greed for power over people, countries, and time is a powerful and addictive thing.

The Federal Reserve Bank is simply an international banking cartel formed in total secrecy in 1913. Through assassination, bribery, misinformation, and continued secrecy, it probably exerts more influence over American life than any other factor. They own and control the media.They can foment wars over oil, gold, silver, grain, or other spheres of influence, and arm all sides for their own profit.

When, and only when, there are enough brave people willing to sacrifice their lives and property to fight the monster will there be any hope of wresting back sovereign control from them.

Our politicians are always either bought off or marginalized, e.g. Ron Paul.

“Don’t fight the Fed” is the first thing the big money boyz learn.

Comment by darthrealtor
2008-11-25 07:35:40

Look what happened to Mark Cuban after he tried to out these rats. DFF.

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 08:12:55

Exactly right, darth. Gee, even though the transaction in question occurred a number of years ago, Cuban puts up his website on the bailouts and boing!!!! The SEC is after his arse. Too much coinkydink if you ask me.

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Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 05:43:13

He got “Spitzered”…

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2008-11-25 09:07:25

“If not physically dead.”

A reference to JFK and executive order 11110 perhaps?

 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-11-25 08:58:10

Ask, and ye shall receive….(re: top down audit):

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27908358

 
 
Comment by watcher
2008-11-25 06:01:31

MOSCOW, November 24 (RIA Novosti) - A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.

Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily Izvestia published on Monday: “The dollar is not secured by anything. The country’s foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse.”

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 06:19:32

Yeeeeee-Hawwww! The South will rise again!

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 06:22:46

Now I’m just waiting to see which illiterate, humorless poster will take that statement seriously and make all kinds of bluenose comments about racism, etc.

Nope, the US will NOT split into separate parts, LMAO! That’s the worst nightmare of Washington. Who wants to lose part of their flock of sheep? Less for the shearing.

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-11-25 07:42:20

Palmetto,

I don’t think the USA will split apart anytime soon. However, the “Balkanization” of the USA is a process already underway, IMHO. The ongoing battle of political correctness vs. religious belief system will continue to serve as a catalyst to polarize and separate families, neighborhoods and regions.

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Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 09:45:59

I wouldn’t mind if we gave Florida back to Spain.

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Comment by CrackerJim
2008-11-25 13:31:19

“I wouldn’t mind if we gave Florida back to Spain.”

No! No! No! Please don’t flush us; we promise to do better! We’ll have a two for one sale on swamp land, give you an alligator of your choice, and all-you-can-drink orange juice stands open 24/7!
(disclaimer: Does NOT apply to Miami; take it please!)

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 14:02:28

Miami won’t even have to pass a “Spanish as First Language” law!!

(Although, it has been explained to me that “Spanish” Spanish is significantly different than “South/Cental American/Mexico” Spanish)

 
Comment by nam
2008-11-25 16:11:44

Stop there! Give Florida to Spain? No, thanks.
We already have overbuilding, a condo buble, an economy only based in building, cubans, beaches, sun and retirees. Oh! and we also have alligators, but we call them politicians and bankers.

 
 
Comment by Carlos Cisco
2008-11-25 10:23:26

We can afford to let 7 of obammy’s 57 states secede. Just where are they? Is this the change on the horizon? Wonder if they have a housing problem in those 7 like we do here in the 50?

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Comment by ahansen
2008-11-26 00:42:50

Give it up, Cisco. It’s getting tedious and makes you look silly.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp

 
 
 
Comment by SUGuy
2008-11-25 09:23:09

The bumpkins will rule Y’all

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-11-25 06:23:08

We are doomed! Sell all your stocks ASAP! Tell your friends.

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 06:27:41

Yeah, really, like that’s ever gonna happen. But, let’s play make-believe this fine Tuesday morning. Suppose the US were to split off into parts. What parts and how would it work? Which would be the new nation-states and what would their borders be? Hmm, let’s see, where’s my US Map?

Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 06:29:40

Would Hawaii end up like Haiti? Or Easter Island?

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Comment by Crash and Burn
2008-11-25 08:05:45

Neither, These islands follow predictable boom and bust cycles. If this “event” was to happen now Oahu would became Haiti. The rest of the islands have ample land and small enough populations to get by.

Give us another 10 years and we would thrive. By that time we will have an undersea cable from the big island (cheap geo thermal power) to all the other islands and Maui county will have a sea of windmills too. We will grow our own fuel. Hell we would probably have to start our own navy to keep those damn California boat people out.

 
Comment by Crash and Burn
2008-11-25 08:38:41

Wait a minute here. You forget we would still have the entire Pacific Fleet here. We would be a world power. We have Nukes!….BBBWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

I need another hit and some coffee.

 
Comment by polly
2008-11-25 10:46:45

If Maui gets windmills, does that mean the residents of Cape Cod and Nantucket have to finally give up on whining that wind power would ruin their views and lower their property values? Please?

If this push for alternative power sources had happened right after 9/11 when eveyone was actually in the proper mind set to think of a little sacrifice and in exchange for not sending gobs of money to the middle east, it would have been sooooo much easier. Lack of the vision thing.

 
Comment by Crash and Burn
2008-11-25 12:55:36

First off we already have windmills here. Since we have no continental shelf we hide them up on the ridgelines. The windmills here on Maui have the shortest towers of any windmills in the world. And when the trades are cranking (300 days a year) those 20 produce 10% of our power.

Problem with windmills is that it is not firm power. Right now they are building 20 on the backsise of Haleakala but their electricity will be used to pump salt water up hill. When power is needed water is released to turn a turbine. Produce firm power.

And they will soon start building 250 windmills on the north side of Lanai. That would be 20% of Oahu,s power.
And our first under sea cable too.

That is why I say give us 10 years.

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-11-25 06:31:51

Seems there was a fight about this sometime around the 1860s or so.

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Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 13:15:40

where’s my US Map

We don’t have maps, which is why we can’t find The Iraq and such as.

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Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 14:05:33

ROTFLMAO

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2008-11-25 18:48:07

My wife opened a fortune cookie that suggested that she should go east for riches. So I have to help her figure out which store is East so she can buy a lottery ticket ;)

 
 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 06:26:20

“…the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.”

Being a Russian - he ought to know.

Comment by watcher
2008-11-25 06:35:38

Indeed, the Russians are remarkably clear-eyed about such things. They know very well that large non-homogenous countries fail during economic collapse. Even military force failed to hold the USSR together and will not work here either. I don’t know if the country will officially break up or remain in some sort of loose confederacy similar to Russia, still paying lip service to Washington but I think odds are greater than 50% that some sort of change will happen over a period of serveral years.

Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 07:01:08

After Fridays COMEX collapse we should be much closer to dissolving the US of A as we know it…. ;-) The Russians should know all about this, and find it completely comical that they are cautioning us and predicting a break-up, like he doesn’t understand Communism. Why is the US non-homogenous? Even the red state/blue state thing comes down to just a few % difference in the end.

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:09:18

Comparing the demographic makeup of the United States with the Soviet Union is just silly. Sometimes I’m amazed at the sweeping comments made here with so little knowledge. But hey, let’s compare Chechnya to Maryland.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 07:16:26

Comparing the demographic makeup of the United States with the Soviet Union is just silly.

I just said the same thing but longer. :) It will show up someday.

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 07:28:01

Exactly what I meant to say and why his opinion is so worthless. They are completely different. We don’t have former countries/states/ethnic groups with vast geographic/cultural/religious and other historical differences crammed and held together under one leadership via the force of the military…. well not yet.

 
Comment by peter a
2008-11-25 08:38:47

100% of republics fail.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 08:56:07

100% of republics fail.

And 100% of biotic organisms die.

What’s your point?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 08:59:47

After Fridays COMEX collapse we should be much closer to dissolving the US of A as we know it…

You and me.

I love the specificity of this prediction. It’s time to nail some balls to the wall.

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 11:19:28

RE: I’m amazed at the sweeping comments made here with so little knowledge. But hey, let’s compare Chechnya to Maryland.

“It’s all contained…”

 
Comment by AdamCO
2008-11-25 14:11:07

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:09:18

Comparing the demographic makeup of the United States with the Soviet Union is just silly. Sometimes I’m amazed at the sweeping comments made here with so little knowledge. But hey, let’s compare Chechnya to Maryland.

————–

Tell me about it. I lived in the Balkans for two years and laugh whenever I hear people talk about “balkanization” of the US. I think anyone who has spent some time overseas in a place with ethnic tensions can understand how absurd are the comparisons made by AM talk radio hosts.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 15:05:27

My nephew from Prague was living in Montana for a year about a decade ago, and got caught speeding driving across country, somewhere on the road in flyover.

He showed the state trooper his Czech driver’s license and the copper lectured him about how lucky he was to be here in America, not back where he came from-where all that ‘ethnic-cleansing’ and war was going on~

My nephew told me he was torn between laughing out loud, and acting perhaps a little sheepishly guilty as said war was only about 5 countries away?

He went with the ‘in the general vicinity’ guilt-trip, accepted the lawman’s verdict and only got a warning…

 
 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 07:15:05

The US is not Russia.

And the USSR was not Russia. The cultural Russia has stayed in tact. The USSR gobbled up a bunch of small countries that were never part of Russia for it’s own defense, and not surprisingly, they took the first opportunity they could to escape.

With the possible notable exception of the southwest with it’s large direct Mexican influx, I think it’s pretty well safe to say the most Americans consider themselves citizens of the US first and foremost. One of the direct repercussions of the Civil War was to culturally transfer citizenship from the states to the federal government.

I do understand the southern states retain more of their cultural and state identity than the northern ones. However, most Texans were as upset as New Yorker when 9/11 happened - a sign really, that we’ve accepted de facto that we’re in this together.

I’m not saying it couldn’t all break apart given enough stress but the analog to Russia in this case is just doesn’t make any sense.

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:40:12

“I do understand the southern states retain more of their cultural and state identity than the northern ones.”

Not any more. The influx of immigrants and Yankees has changed that drastically. The natives are completely outnumbered in “The New South”.

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 07:43:19

V’gal, agreed 100%, not sure if you are disagreeing with my post or responding to the article, but we are making the same point (I think…). They are not the same, so his perspective is fatally flawed in analyzing the US situation as if it were the Soviet Union. I was actually going to reference 9/11 as it is a perfect indication of why they are so different. Not sure why NYCboy thinks my “sweeping comment” was so ignorant and lacks knowledge, but hey maybe its the rain today.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 07:50:31

V’gal, agreed 100%, not sure if you are disagreeing with my post or responding to the article, but we are making the same point (I think…).

Mostly responding to the article. Your first post was confusing, I admit, but it looks like we’re in agreement. :)

A Russian analyst who doesn’t understand the cultural and historical differences between the USSR and other countries is going to be waiting for every country to fall apart at the first sign stress, particularly monetary stress.

The end of the US, whenever it happens, will probably look and feel quite a bit different than the end of the USSR.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 08:10:33

Ummm, my original comment was tongue in cheek. I was trying to draw attention to the irony of a former Soviet citizen predicting the demise of his former rival.

Of course the US is not the USSR/Russia - not by a long shot. All the same, to think that human history will not advance beyond the hegemonic postwar American paradigm is also myopic.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-11-25 08:20:36

Not any more. The influx of immigrants and Yankees has changed that drastically. The natives are completely outnumbered in “The New South”.

What do you know, yankee?

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 08:33:04

I lived in The New South before moving up here. I felt bad for the natives. There is nothing left of the place they knew growing up.

 
Comment by CrackerJim
2008-11-25 08:38:02

“Not any more. The influx of immigrants and Yankees has changed that drastically. The natives are completely outnumbered in “The New South”.”

So true! Good observation from your northern viewpoint.
Very little Old South left here in Florida.
(Florida native, 63 years)

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-11-25 09:21:33

Florida is not now nor ever was part of The South.

Neither is Texas.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 09:59:09

Texas joined the Confederacy a mere16 years after they became a state. The last battle of the Civil War took place in Texas. Throw in the largest cotton producer in the world and the large amount of Southern Baptist and you gotta lot more South than West in Texas.

 
Comment by bluprint
2008-11-25 10:22:02

Try ordering sweet tea in Dallas and let me know how that turns out for you.

The cultural South is a lot more than a failed secession.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-11-25 10:44:19

The cultural South is a lot more than a failed secession.

True enough, but it’s a lot more than readily available sweet tea or Moon Pies, too.

Growing up in Virginia, I always got a kick out South-ier-Than-Thou types that would try to “explain” why Virginia wasn’t really part of the South. Those kinda people typically don’t know where the capital of the Confederacy was, either. (Laugh.)

 
Comment by in Colorado
2008-11-25 10:58:27

Try ordering sweet tea in Dallas and let me know how that turns out for you.

Pffft! You an get that here in Colorado.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 12:16:43

The hard part is ordering unsweet tea as everyone fixates on the “sweet” part. I have taken to saying “no sugar” instead.

 
Comment by Namehasbeenchangedtoprotectdainnocent
2008-11-25 12:21:24

How about some boiled peanuts and a RC to go with that Moon Pie? The collard greens are gonna’ be good at Thanksgiving with with all the frost we had last week and time to break out the brown water too. Sweet tater pie anyone?

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 14:11:58

I thought it was Dr. Pepper and Moon Pies?

Dr Pepper + Moon Pies = Breakfast of Champions

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 15:11:23

‘Dr Pepper + Moon Pies = Breakfast of Champions’

You’s like a genious! Except you should add ‘Slim Jim’s and whiskey’. That’s like an aperitif.

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 16:22:52

Slim Jim’s = “It’s what’s for Dinner”

Try to locate some Bison Jerky…..because it is a little “drier” than beef, it makes awesome jerky. At least the stuff I’ve has.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Ernest
2008-11-25 07:00:10

Who knows where all of this stops but to suggest it is remote or has no possiblity of happening is ignorant.

Not that human history has anything to do with anything.

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 07:31:40

You’re right - who knows where it stops? The only thing that history teaches is that all empires end. (I’m also learning the fiddle, that maybe an extremely ominous sign as far as the end of the US is concerned.)

The problem here is the analogy to the breakup of the USSR to that of the US. It’s apples to oranges comparison.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 08:14:07

Apples: Few citizens of the Soviet Empire own anything, most have excellent cheap public transport and are used to privations. It’s not uncommon for citizens to wait in line for an hour if something seldom seen shows up in a store, for sale.

Oranges: Most everybody in the USA “owns” everything, and most citizens don’t have access to excellent cheap public transport-as it doesn’t exist. The citizenry knows nothing about privation, in fact just the opposite-as evidenced by the nations’ wasteline ever-expanding.

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Comment by yogurt
2008-11-25 11:49:29

The correct analogy to the breakup of the USSR was the demise of the British and French Empires. The USSR was just the Russian Empire under a new brand. The only difference from the British and French empires was that it was geographically contiguous.

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Comment by yogurt
2008-11-25 11:51:31

Now that I think about it, the best analogy is to the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires post-WWI. The Russian Empire did break up at the same time, but was reconstituted under Communist rule.

 
 
 
 
Comment by peter m
2008-11-25 07:42:10

” leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts. ”

US last split up during the civil war 150 yrs ago. Took a dam bloody conflict to reunify it. Maybe This Russkie thinks US is like the former USSR which did split up but they were held by communist brute force. US is indeed near total economic collapse but the fed will simply flood the states with printed $ & propaganda to keep the natives bamboozled.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 09:44:47

“You may not be interested in the dialectic, but the dialectic is interested in you.”

Leon Trotsky

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 10:28:27

That seems appropriate because you often remind me of Trotsky.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 10:37:33

Maybe I better keep my 3 ice-axes under lock and key?

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Comment by exeter
2008-11-25 06:04:57

Reflate, reflate, reflate. It will fail.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:35:50

What is the alternative to trying?

Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 06:57:27

Total failure….

 
Comment by darthrealtor
2008-11-25 07:39:20

Cue the little green guy from Dagobah. Actually his resemblance to Mr. McGreenSpan is kinda spooky.

 
 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 06:49:30

Yesterday you were pumping the idea of stimulus.

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-11-25 06:58:58

I proposed last year we crash the markets and let the Chinese buy GM GE IBM MSFT with all their US$$$$

seems like a doable plan…

I mean whats wrong with China or heck Abu Dhabi buying GM Ford and Chrysler if it keeps millions on the payroll?

Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2008-11-25 07:35:35

One step ahead… What is the benefit of keeping said megacorps HQ’d here?
Costs are definitively higher, and labor, energy, and a myriad other things are more expensive here than in Bangalore or Shangai… What is keeping all these corps here…
What is keeping WS firms in NY… Location would be fungible in a global marketplace. Why pay 100K to a junior WS analist in NYC, when you can pay a bowl of rice a day in Bangalore?

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Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 07:41:16

Given that the average CEO seems to care only about their own hide and is unqualified for any skilled job, we could at least get them cheaper.

I like the “Outsource Executives” plan. :)

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 09:06:43

Network effects.

Why is Silicon Valley still in Silicon Valley?

It takes time to diffuse the talent to a different location.

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 10:05:22

The same reason Hollywood is still in California.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 10:09:32

Yep, network effects there too.

It’s easy to find people you need right away.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2008-11-25 10:49:13

China buying GM etc. would be a boon for the environment worldwide as well; GM would have to stick to the much tougher Chinese emission/efficiency regulations :)

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Comment by Kirisdad
2008-11-25 16:03:25

Tougher Chinese emission standards?

 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2008-11-25 09:07:02

Yeah, I thought Exeter is in love with Bammy.

 
Comment by exeter
2008-11-25 10:13:01

Not pumping stimulus. Just making note of the outlandish hypocrisy where few if any of the typical tax whining ideologues said a word about bailouts for the wealthy elite (AIG, Citi) but they were $hittin’ all over themselves to shoot down a wage earner pension (GM) gaurantee.

Hypocrisy…. it’s a conservative/libertarian virtue.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-11-25 16:08:59

What hypocrisy? they own stock in citi/AIG (401K), but have no pension to call their own.

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Comment by palmetto
2008-11-25 06:14:28

What a freakin’ clusterf*ck this whole thing is. I wanna know, is it a conspiracy or just dumb luck for the Bush bankster cronies? Because if yer gonna have a lame duck meltdown, the ideal time to do it is between the election and inauguration of the new prezy.

I mean, the timing couldn’t be better for a good looting of the Treasury, now could it? The successor has to stand by and watch, not much he can do about it except appoint more of the same to his administration.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:05:19

“Because if yer gonna have a lame duck meltdown, …”

The meltdown commenced in August 2007, but the American public did not get the memo until October 2008 or so.

 
Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 12:01:18

No, the timing could have been MUCH better [for them]. The mid-September meltdown could have happened in mid-November. The powers that be would have had four more years of looting rather than 3 months.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 06:40:05

Finanical Times
OECD forecasts four quarters of contraction
By Norma Cohen, Economics Correspondent

Published: November 25 2008 11:13 | Last updated: November 25 2008 11:13

The US and the eurozone are set to suffer four consecutive quarters of contracting output that will not come to an end until the middle of 2009, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

The OECD, which only a few months ago forecast that most eurozone area economies would experience flat growth in the second half of this year – and that the UK would experience a mild technical recession – is now forecasting four consecutive quarters of contraction for the US, countries using the euro, and OECD nations as a whole.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 06:54:49

“The US and the eurozone are set to suffer four consecutive quarters of contracting output”

This will be closely followed by a prediction for four more consecutive quarters of contraction.

Comment by polly
2008-11-25 07:46:04

The economists do seem very fond of the “do over” when it comes to their predictions.

Comment by Martin Gale
2008-11-25 14:15:46

As PB is fond of pointing out, predictions made after-the-fact generally tend to prove more reliable.

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-11-25 17:05:58

Isn’t that called hindsight? ;)

 
Comment by Martin Gale
2008-11-25 17:51:43

Sometimes I like to call it “20/20″

 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2008-11-25 10:53:09

sure, both the IMF and the OECD have proven themselves totally clueless about what is going on.

Only the EU national governments are worse, e.g. in my country they still think there will be no recession (or maybe just a few quaters of zero growth). And because of that they are raiding the unemployment benefits warchest, enabling workers from the car/homebuilding industry etc. who are no longer needed to keep their full pay while doing nothing.

 
 
 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 06:47:58

Worse than expected by who? These idiots are idiots.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081125/economy.html

 
Comment by KR
2008-11-25 06:55:35

does this mean I will get a 4% 30 year fixed rate for my mortgage??

Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 09:33:45

Only if you have a reckless history of not paying your bills, and stop making the house payments.

 
 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 07:03:46

From the Boston Globe Business Team
Mass. home sales rise, but prices fall
November 25, 2008 08:05 AM

The median sales price for a single-family home fell 13.9 percent to $285,000 in October, one month after falling below $300,000 for the first time in five years, the Warren Group reported today.

One bright spot: The number of homes sold in October rose nearly 14 percent from October 2007, said the Warren Group, a Boston real estate date firm.

The median selling price for a Massachusetts single family home was $285,000 in October, compared with $331,000 in October 2007 and $287,500 in September 2008. Last month, 3,698 single family homes were sold in Massachusetts versus 3,253 in October 2007, the Warren Group said.

The median selling price for a Massachusetts condo was $260,000 in October, down 5.5 percent from a year ago, said the Warren Group, which added that 1,660 condos sold in the Bay State last month, down 7.4 percent from 1,792 sold in October 2007.

Referring to the year-to-year increase in the number of single family homes sold in October, Timothy Warren chief executive of the Warren Group, said in a statement: “The uptick in home sales for two straight months is a hopeful sign. But the light at the end of the tunnel is still a long way off. What we saw in the early 1990s during the last housing downturn in Massachusetts was that the number of sales increased for at least eight months while prices continued to decline. The lower prices are a key factor driving sales volume up. My expectation would be that the number of home sales will have to climb for several more months before price declines start to level off. Another factor to keep in mind is the impact of the collapse in the stock market. Our October data reflects sales that were negotiated over the summer and closed in October. Our data cannot tell us if people were still shopping for homes in October.”

Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2008-11-25 07:26:49

This seems like a honeypot trap… Prices fall a ridiculous 10% and people swarm in buying, because there has never been a better time…
OTOH, I have a coworker that bought at the peak, and now is doomed.. He owes more on his house than what it is worth, and what is worse, he hates the house. Bought to “fix up” and sell within 2 years and make money on it. Right now he is considering sending the keys to the bank. Income is mid 80’s and after all is said and done, he has to sell some toy (camera, lens, old car, some other trinket) each month to make ends meet.
This will not end well.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-11-25 07:29:57

Let us stand back and watch the sales numbers plummet, once again, when all of these foreclosure moratoriums kick in. The sales numbers are high for only one reason and we know what that is. And they will be removing those transactions for 90 - 180 days. Watch the sales figures collapse without those transactions.

Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 07:50:17

Not arguing with you, but in MA, those sales numbers may have been actually goosed higher by the expiration of the first 90 day “notice” moritorium that just rolled over last month in MA. I am not sure if the banks could have got their foreclosures thru the Courts so quickly, but October would have been the first month that could have happened since the MA law was passed this summer. November will be a more realistic time frame for the post moratorium explosion to start hitting the MA market and I guess we’ll seen then what happens. Of course the Fannie/Freddie holiday feel good moratorium is now going to hit, plus whatever else the brain surgeons in Boston and Washington dream up.

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Comment by Ed G
2008-11-25 07:59:44

Boston is a weird market. We didn’t have a run-up in building (as much) because of all the red tape; so the SFH market is not dropping as much. However, the amount of condo conversions has been insane. Selling a condo is probably impossible these days.

I still see the MLS app as showing serious run-ups still in place. a house you could buy for $190K in 1998 is on the market for $599K now. I can’t imagine there’s anything special about Boston keeping prices THAT high; we have a decent labor market but I can’t imagine that will last forever. Someday, maybe we’ll be back to 200K houses.

Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2008-11-25 08:17:43

Believe it or not, MA was not THAT unaffordable a couple of years ago… It seems that sellers here are far more stubborn than in other places, and constantly recite the “it is different here, and nothing will change” but when asked if they could afford to buy a house here, at the current prices, most would not be able to.
I see a lot of contractors that were not as dumb as in other places of the US that have held out OK, but now are starting to sweat bullets, and let me tell you that there is no work in the pipeline for construction contractors for next year.
This will be a very bleak year for those that are associated with the construction industry in MA.

Comment by hd74man
2008-11-25 11:39:13

RE: This will be a very bleak year for those that are associated with the construction industry in MA.

A local polito told a dude I know at the gym who was bitchin about the shape his section of state maintained road was in…”Make no mistake-the billions in cost overuns of the “Big Dig” will take every dime this state has for years.”

Mazz Turnpike Authority is right now on the brink of bankruptcy due to $393 million coming due on the variable rate debt instruments the TA honcho’s used to leverage the fiasco.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/11/25/huge_bill_could_soon_come_due_for_turnpike

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Comment by WT Economist
2008-11-25 08:01:58

“The median sales price for a single-family home fell 13.9 percent to $285,000 in October, one month after falling below $300,000 for the first time in five years…The number of homes sold in October rose nearly 14 percent from October 2007.”

We’re seeing that a lot — the price goes down, and the sales go up. Imagine how many would sell at $200,000?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:03:57

The Fed is stepping up to the plate as the investor at the other end of the mortgage loan securitization pipeline from subprime borrowers.

latest news [FRE] Fed to purchase direct obligations of housing-related GSEs

Fed sets plan to help support housing markets

By Michelle Donley
Last update: 8:35 a.m. EST Nov. 25, 2008

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The Federal Reserve said Tuesday that it will start a program to buy up to $100 billion in direct obligations of housing-related government-sponsored enterprises, such as Fannie Mae , Freddie Mac and the Federal Home Loan Banks, as well as up to $500 billion in mortgage-backed securities backed by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. The Fed said the move will help reduce the cost and increase the availability of credit for home buyers, which would then help support the housing market.

 
Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 07:06:48

The trade of the day, (if one is lucky): Buy Goldman’s 3 yr notes and sell the US Treasuries. Goldman’s notes have the full faith and guarantee of the US government (not available on the GSEs) and are priced 200bps over the 3yr treasuries.

Meanwhile the government announces a plan to buy GSE debt. The reason for this action is no reasonable investor (China, Japan, or the Middle East) wants to own GSE debt and in China’s case has been a seller.

Buying GSE debt should lower mortgage rates.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:18:08

“The reason for this action is no reasonable investor (China, Japan, or the Middle East) wants to own GSE debt and in China’s case has been a seller.”

Fed = MBS investor of last resort

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:19:30

“Buying GSE debt should lower mortgage rates.”

Should also (eventually) lower the real value of housing relative to the nominal value.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 07:30:04

“…Buying GSE debt should lower mortgage rates” :-)

How many $450,000 - 1,$$$,$$$ Million dollar “houses” would be selling at +14% interest rates? ;-)

Kill the beast!…don’t just whack it in the knees & squeeze it’s low hangin’ fruit.

Comment by nhz
2008-11-25 10:56:31

the question is how high will inflation and wages be when the FED allows rates to rise to 14%…

maybe 1M is the low end of the scale by then?

 
 
Comment by clue
2008-11-25 07:46:40

quantitative mortgage easing aint gonna work.

 
Comment by watcher
2008-11-25 07:52:34

One point about your comment yesterday that a comex default would somehow be business as usual. It will not be. The last time a PM default occurred was when the Hunts broke the bagged silver contract in the early 80s by taking huge delivery. The contracts never traded again.

PM delivery isn’t like the Spoos. A force majure will destroy confidence in the exchange and competing exchanges (hello Dubai) will take over.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 09:43:14

I’m so glad we have you on this blog Hoz! Every time I wonder why, you give me the answer without me even asking.

If you havent heard it lately, Thank You for the Wisdom and Enlightenment!!!!!!!

I for one need Lots of it!!!!

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 11:59:26

“Goldman’s notes have the full faith and guarantee of the US government ”

Ok, I’ve always sort of figured that GS was the privatized arm of Treasury, but did I miss a memo on the full-faith-and-guarantee? Or is this strictly tongue-in-cheek?

Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 15:44:48

GS is issuing $5B in new 3 yr notes guaranteed by the FDIC. Issuing price apr 3.63%

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 16:27:53

OMG, that’s freaking _unreal_!!

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:17:02

How do you guys like this plan?

1) Buy the most expensive home you can afford.

2) Get fired.

3) Take a low paying job and stop paying your mortgage, on grounds that you cannot afford to do so and keep eating.

4) In three months, qualify for a mortgage writedown at 38% of your current (very low) income.

5) Once you have locked in your very low mortgage payments, get a better job whenever you have the chance to do so.

Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 10:09:15

Love it! The only flaw is the last time I checked, the classifieds are shrinking dramatically on the Jobs front. Lots of things listed for sale though. Anyone thinking of doing this had better move fast!

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 12:01:59

At the end of the day, you would have a very affordable payment, but on a dramatically over-priced house. With the way they’ve been structuring re-writes, you would still have a ridiculous balloon payment due at the end of the mortgage. E.g. you are essentially a renter with none of the mobility/no-maintenance/other advantages.

In other words, it’s a losing strategy.

Comment by nhz
2008-11-25 13:12:41

but for people who live paycheck to paycheck it sounds like a great plan, at least they can keep living way beyond their means. Just make sure that if you get any assets in the future you hide them somewhere out of sight …

and wouldn’t they invent some kind of law to allow FB’s to move to another home and take the special mortgage with them?

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-11-25 07:32:15

Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) — The Federal Reserve took two new steps to unfreeze credit for homebuyers, consumers and small businesses, committing up to $800 billion.

The central bank will purchase as much as $600 billion in debt issued or backed by government-chartered housing-finance companies….

 
Comment by Frank Hague
2008-11-25 07:41:04

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_pauly&sid=a_5esbYzOcHQ

As someone who works for a large corporation I can say it has been my experience that managing a company of over a 100,000 employees is practically impossible to do well. Large companies inevitably become nothing more the than big bureaucracies.

“Citigroup’s failure undercuts the strategy of many U.S. businesses. Bigger is better, CEOs argue. Only the big survive in a cutthroat world. What they don’t say is, I get paid more if my company gets larger. In the years 2000 through 2005, Sanford I. Weill took $83 million in bonuses for his work at Citigroup. Weill and his successor, Charles Prince, might argue that they had bad luck. No one predicted the collapse of the credit markets that followed the excesses of the U.S. mortgage business. Still, wasn’t the Citigroup financial powerhouse built to survive any crisis?”

“Better that they should acknowledge the colossus was a bad idea, and their own poor management. Citigroup’s $66 billion in write-offs for bad loans proves a reckless approach to investments. On Weill’s watch, Citigroup issued fraudulent reports on stocks and paid billions of dollars to settle charges it misled bond buyers.”

Comment by ButImNotDeadYet
2008-11-25 10:05:37

Citigroup = Too big to succeed…

 
Comment by Skip
2008-11-25 10:11:39

As someone who works for a large corporation I can say it has been my experience that managing a company of over a 100,000 employees is practically impossible to do well.

Eisenhower seemed to manage quite well. Of course, his didn’t have a golden parachute to fall back on.

Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2008-11-25 14:33:45

“Eisenhower seemed to manage quite well.”

Assuming you’re right…

If that’s the most recent example you can think of, of competent management of a 100,000+ person organization, I think you’ve proven the original poster’s point.

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-11-25 07:46:42

The S&P/Case-Shiller home-price index dropped 17.4 percent in September from a year earlier, more than forecast, after a 16.6 percent decline in August. The gauge has fallen every month since January 2007, and year-over-year records began in 2001.

Bloomberg

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:55:44

Home price declines are accelerating, despite all the jawboning about wanting to prop up housing prices…

Comment by WT Economist
2008-11-25 08:12:50

Perhaps this is a NY perspective, however, but I don’t get the feeling that housing is cheap.

They are talking about early 2004 prices. I pretty much believe the limited wage increases since then have been swallowed by rising prices for health care (more copayments), energy, food, etc, leaving less to pay for housing, and by that time housing was pretty much getting out of hand.

Another year of this and we might have affordable housing.

Here’s a stimulus package — how about tearing down public housing, and giving its residents cheap houses instead? The buildings need gut rehabs, at least here in NYC, but with guaranteed low rents the government can’t afford them. Existing homes might be cheaper.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 08:56:01

Strong hands fall last but they fall violently.

Park Ave. and Pacific Heights held out for two years (1990-1991) after the declines before the sudden violent 50% fall.

You’ll see the same.

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Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 07:48:52

A ‘Wealth Effect’ in Reverse

By Robert J. Samuelson
Tuesday, November 25, 2008

“…The case for a sizable economic “stimulus” package is that it would temporarily compensate for the erosion of consumer spending. But if the positive “wealth effect” is now giving way to a lasting negative or neutral “wealth effect” — as people try to replenish savings and offset lost wealth — then even a recovery would be sluggish. A new source of demand is needed to sustain faster growth. An obvious solution is for high-saving Asian countries, led by China, to consume and spend more so that their imports increase. Whether they have the political capacity to reduce their dependence on export-led growth is unclear.

The scary words “depression” and “deflation” are bandied about because an economic free fall seems possible, even if it is unlikely. With time, economic slumps correct themselves as borrowers repay debts, surplus inventories are sold, industries consolidate and government policies promote recovery. They may now. But the mechanics of this cycle are sufficiently different from any since World War II as to raise doubts. Americans are less upset by hardships they’ve experienced than by those they imagine.”
WaPo

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 07:49:38

“…GM, Tribune Co. and MGM Mirage were among 72 companies at risk of running out of cash at the end of October, the most since 2002, as job losses and tightening credit weakened consumer spending,”

Note to myself for HBB meeting in Lost Wages:

$15.99 Hertz GM car rental
$3.99 “all you can eat” breakfast
Free Tribune newspaper & Wi-Fi

Just need Amtrak train service restored… :-)

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 07:51:21

Forgot the link: :-(

Citigroup Peddles Default-Recovery Swaps as Bankruptcies Soar:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_L5pzskD4rU&refer=home

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 08:20:01

I read an interesting tidbit about Amtrak this weekend. After trying harder than any president since Reagan to kill Amtrak, the decider signed a new rail safety bill a few weeks back that effectively doubles Amtrak’s operating budget for each of the next five years.

Just another one of those strange goings on this year. This adminstration was loathe to fund Amtrak and then suddenly, on the eve of lame duckness, lets them have double?

Take what you can get and don’t ask no questions.

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-11-25 09:17:28

Amtrak is one of those weird political footballs that is one of those annoying mindless talking points meant to divide people over nothing.

My argument for a long time is that transportation is not a profit center. Transportation supports overall economic activity and promotes national security and can operated a “loss”.

You’d think the Republicans would be all over something that would increase economic activity and help with defense.

But no, the rail system, which used to be highly profitable before the introduction of a partially subsized airline system and a completely subsized Interstate system, must somehow turn a profit in completely different conditions that the government helped created.

Would Greyhound turn a profit if it had to maintain the highway system it uses? Has any airline except South West done anything but burn through investor cash? (And South West benefits from municpality run airports and federally funded air control systems.)

And the connection of the rail system across the United States was in fact government subsidized through incentives and land grants.

Sorry for the rant. I like taking trains and the “blessed” and therefore “non-controversial” status of airplanes and interstate rankles. :(

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 11:51:45

“You’d think the Republicans would be all over something that would increase economic activity and help with defense.”

;-)

They sure shut up after 911…should have sent the Bid Laden’s family members home via The Amtrak Empire Builder from NYC to San Francisco…let every American see what Cheney-Shrub were up to. ;-)

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Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 12:29:18

‘I like taking trains and the “blessed” and therefore “non-controversial” status of airplanes and interstate rankles.’

I WOULD like taking trains, but the last time I checked, about a year ago, it cost more than an airline ticket did. So I didn’t take it.
I agree–this is a shame.

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Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2008-11-25 14:46:57

V-gal,

You’ve made a great argument for simultaneous privatization of (and removal of subsidies from) rail, Interstate highways and airports.

Regards,
LVG

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Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 14:51:21

IMO, if the goverment feels that it has to “subsidize” anything, it should be subsidizing things that give the most benefit, with the least cost to the government. But I’m old-fashioned that way.

Amtrak subsidies should be limited to operations/areas where it makes sense to operate rail….basically places like the NE corridor, the San Diego/LA/San Francisco corridor, etc. Subsidizing Amtrak for vacation travelers and people who don’t like to fly or drive makes no sense to me.

Just run the numbers for what it costs (inluding equipment, crew) to run a 200 seat passenger train between Chicago-LA, and the equivalent airliner….then figure that the train takes 40 hours to do that trip ONE TIME, while the airplane can fly that trip (realistically) in 4 hours. Which one will generate the most income/revenue over a given period?

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Comment by darthrealtor
2008-11-25 07:54:10

Why all the love for the 10 year this AM? Weird swings with that one.

Comment by KR
2008-11-25 08:02:09

because Jesus and his lawyer are coming back

 
Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 08:04:02

An attempt to explain:

The 10 yr treasury is going to have a technical default. The question is when. The technical default is going to make the 10Yr CDS worth big dollars (these CDS are trading at record spreads.)

Hedgers are buying the 10 yr Treasury and buying the CDS. (No reasonable investor should bet that the US is going to default and rely on private funding to make good. LOL) On a technical default the sellers of the CDS will have to pay very large moneys to the owners of these 10 yr Treasuries.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 08:22:02

So why the 10-year default and not the 30-year?

Am I missing something here?

Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 08:47:40

The 30 yr Swap is a Mrs Watanbe spread! And I am not kidding.

It is a result of the power reverse dual currency (PRDC)

2002
The Power Reverse Dual Currency Note (PRDC)
􀂄 Designed as a yield enhancement instrument for Yen investors
􀁺 Investor swaps Yen LIBOR by Dollar LIBOR paid on a Yen notional
􀁺 This is offset by some exposure to USDJPY risk
􀂄 Typically maturities around 30Y
􀂄 Very popular product

http://www.risklab.es/es/seminarios/pasados/octubre2002.pdf

It has been sold as a yield enhancement of the 30YR JGB priced in Yen. If the Yen breaks, IMHO - not likely, the bond gets punished. It is currently forcing an upward appreciation of the Yen.

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Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 09:33:13

tried to post -maybe it will show later - PRDCs

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 10:23:21

“The 10 yr treasury is going to have a technical default.”

What does this mean?

Comment by QinQueens
2008-11-25 11:30:10

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 16:02:04

One scenario, not the most likely, is for the US Senate to delay funding the balance of the TARP. This puts the 10 yr in default and triggers the CDS. Even if the delay is 1 day. The 10 yr US Treasury is a greater hostage to politics than the other Treasuries.

 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 12:14:47

“No reasonable investor should bet that the US is going to default and rely on private funding to make good. LOL”

So hoz, why the h-e-double-hockey-sticks are hedgers buying theses CDS’es then??

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 07:57:30

How does this news square with rising U.S. stock prices?

U.S. Q3 before-tax corporate profits fall 9.0% yr-on-yr
By Greg Robb
Last update: 8:31 a.m. EST Nov. 25, 2008

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — U.S. corporations’ before-tax profits from current production fell 9.0% over the past year, the Commerce Department estimated Tuesday. This is the slowest annual rate since the third quarter of 2001, which included 9/11. In the third quarter, profits fell 0.9% to $1.52 trillion annualized in the third quarter. The government data are adjusted for inventory valuations and capital consumption.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 08:04:42

“…The government data are adjusted…”

Is that the real real Gov’t or the “Shadow Gov’t”? ;-)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-11-25 08:02:19

Cheney-Shrub / Paulson are having the Edison syndrome:

It took Thomas Edison 1,123 experiments to finally come up with a filament for the light bulb. :-)

Keep at boys & girls! Don’t quit! …you’re almost there…just around the bend…& over the hill…through the brambles & bushes we go… :-)

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-11-25 08:02:19

Consumer confidence up.

Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 08:09:34

Its the much lower gas prices and the holidays are coming driving that figure. Sadly, I believe that is about the depth of most consumers analysis of their own situation.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-11-25 08:24:13

It is not so much that confidence is up - as it is that attention spans are very, very short.

Seriously, IMHO, it only goes up because the peeps get bored and are ready to move on. (Ex: the Iraq war, I’ll bet case of beer that the man on the street thinks its all hunky dory - simply because its off the front page)

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2008-11-25 08:21:31

The dollar fell for the third day in a row against the euro after the Federal Reserve pledged $800 billion to help ease the credit crisis for homeowners, consumers and small businesses….

Bloomberg

 
Comment by cactus
2008-11-25 08:27:36

As of September 2008, the 10-City Composite is down 23.4 percent from its peak, the 20-City Composite is down 21.8 percent and the National Composite is down 21.0 percent.

Phoenix was the weakest market, reporting an annual decline of 31.9 percent, followed by Las Vegas, down 31.3 percent, and San Francisco, which was down 29.5 percent. Miami, Los Angeles, and San Diego did not fair much better with annual declines of 28.4 percent, 27.6 percent and 26.3 percent, respectively.

 
Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 08:32:53

Conversations From the Shop Floor

A recent conversation overheard on an investment bank’s equity trading floor between Paolo the Manager and Didier the Head Trader

Paolo: “So, Didi, its been a good year for you. You are a valuable member of my team and your performance this year, even if the firm is not doing so….”

Didier: “Get on with it - what’s my number?”

Paolo: “OK Didier, for 2008 your total compensation will be one point eight and so your bonus is one point five.”

Didier: “What! That’s ridiculous. How can I be down 60% when my pnl is up 35%”

Paolo: “You know the answer to that. The firm’s performance is poor, the fixed income and credit guys have killed us and there is overwhelming external scrutiny of bonus pools being paid out by all the investment banks.”

Didier: “So what. I made the money”

Paolo: “Or so you think. Listen Didi, the world has changed. 20% of your bonus is in cash, 30% in restricted options and 50% in restricted stock….”

Didier (interrupting): “You’re giving me three hundred cash? That’s like one twenty sterling after tax. Its a fucking rounding error. Fuck you.”

Paolo: ….”and the restricted program has a few changes this year.”

Didier: “Uh huh - the so called malus lunacy I have been hearing about?”

Paolo: “Well, we’re calling it the Long Term Corporate Responsibility Alignment Program. It can be withheld if your trading books don’t realise in the long term the value in the positions you have booked this year.”

Didier: “Long Term CRAP? Plus options over this company’s piece of shit stock? I’m already down five bars on the last 5 years of options and restricted stock.”

Paolo: “Well, we are all affected, I can promise you that. Luckily I have been paid a lot more than you in the last decade so I don’t care. What I suggest is you go and sleep on it and tomorrow you will accept the inevitability of it all. It is out of my hands, executive management hands and even those of the board.”

Didier: “Like I’m a government employee or something”

Paolo: “Yes. But still earning twenty times what they do.”

Two weeks later, and the paltry sum of one twenty sterling is safely in Didier’s bank account.

Didier: “I’m quitting, and so, I think, are 5 other exotics traders”

Paolo: “where?”

Didier: “Don’t be stupid, there are no damn jobs. We’re just quitting. Out of the game. Might start a hedge fund, might start teaching, might be a taxi driver. Who knows.”

Paolo: “You’ll never raise enough assets to start a hedge fund. You really should stay here and run the books to collect your Long Term Crap.”

Didier: “er, by the way, you might find a few surprises in there”

Paolo: “Such as?”

Didier: “Oh, you’ll find them, trust me. Or they will find you. You’ll probably want to hire someone to get you through them. Good luck with that.”
………………………………………………..

Three months later on the newswires:

London, Feb 19 2009 (Reuters): Embattled investment bank EuroBank announced losses of $1.2 billion on equity and multi asset derivatives trades as global markets continued their rout. The loss, equal to almost twice the revenue from equity sales and trading in the last quarter of 2008, spelt the end of Paolo Motelli’s career at Eurobank where he was formerly Global Head of Globalness.

“They were hit from all sides with the trades they had written” said Arma Gessin, analyst at boutique firm Brunette & Co. “We knew they were selling billions of dollars of puts on hedge funds to fund of fund marketers so they could in turn sell protected hedge funds to retail investors. What we didn’t know was that a moderate monthly fall in those hedge funds would blow them up completely. They couldn’t hedge, as the hedge funds all stopped redemptions.”

Eurobank’s derivatives losses also mounted due to dislocations in correlation between currency and equity index movements and the two week shutdown in global equity markets agreed by the G20 in the emergency summit in January.

Eurobank officials were unavailable for comment although the executive board was reported to be bemused by the nature of the risks on their books. Shares fell 7% on the news to a new low of 4 Euros. The shares have fallen 91% in the last 12 months. Calls to Mr Motelli’s mobile were unanswered.

from
Andrew Clavell at Financial Crookery

I want my bonus and I want it now!!!

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-11-25 12:21:49

Lovely reading… We can only hope, I suppose… :-)

 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2008-11-25 08:47:34

Bring out your debt…Bring out your debt….

Comment by packman
2008-11-25 09:12:20

“I’m not debt yet!!!”

(say the people who really get screwed)

Comment by ButImNotDeadYet
2008-11-25 10:33:20

…somebody called for me?

 
Comment by oxide
2008-11-25 13:22:17

Obama: It’s betting bettah…I think I could go for a walk…but the Secret Service won’t let me…

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 08:52:41

What’s everybody think of Darkmouth Hank’s reverse-telethon?

Operators are standing by, to give away money.

Call Now~

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 08:53:57

OK, sharks, time for a feeding frenzy. :-D

Desperately Seeking Sugar Daddies.

Go at it!

Comment by Blano
2008-11-25 10:01:46

Holy s*it……people actually live like that?? I think I’d rather sit home with a 6 pack of Bud Light than waste my time on beotches like them. No chick is hot enough to put up with that kind of attitude.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 10:30:46

That was fascinating. And kind of horrible.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 10:39:54

It was amazing. It’s like watching an entire ecosystem get destroyed but in this case, it’s for the good. :-D

Comment by polly
2008-11-25 11:58:41

ecosystem? Like a fresh water swamp?

Gosh, I feel dirty. Maybe there is a way to wash out my eyeballs?

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Comment by bluprint
2008-11-25 12:45:15

I agree, fascinating.

High-end girlfriends get cheaper for those left standing.

And for those unwilling to lower their price…tsk, tsk.

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2008-11-25 11:07:29

“Ordinary Peepholes. It’s a big t-tty, spread cheeky kinda flick”

 
Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 15:14:32

None of this is a surprise to any guy who has been back in the dating pool for a while. At least these girls are honest about it.

The more sophisticated types use words like “successful” and “looking for someone to make me feel secure”, which in cougar-parlance means “mid to high six figure plus income/seven figure net worth”.

Fortunately, my self-esteem is not tied up in how much I get laid. And as I’ve gotten older, I’ve found my tolerance for putting up with female B.S. just to get laid is getting lower all the time.

Comment by Deflationary Jane
2008-11-25 17:17:00

‘as I’ve gotten older, I’ve found my tolerance for putting up with female B.S. just to get laid is getting lower all the time.’

Funny, that’s how I feel about men’s BS >; )

I suppose us females without plastic parts and cash holdings are looking pretty good these days.

Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 06:32:06

:)

Good one, DJ. What’s funny is that guys don’t realize their infatuation with a woman’s appearance is the same thing as a woman’s infatuation with a man’s wealth/power. Two sides of the same coin, but the men rarely chide each other for only dating “hot” women.

They just don’t get it.

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Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-26 11:15:56

Female Delusion #1: Men always do their thinking with the little head, instead of the big head.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2008-11-25 09:04:21

What do people think here about small, independent, established car repair shops? Will they do well in recessions or poorly? Thanks for any thoughts!

Comment by in Colorado
2008-11-25 11:14:49

With so many cars equipped with 100K power train warranties and 50K bumper to bumpers, who knows?

 
Comment by polly
2008-11-25 12:09:43

My mechanic in Jersey City said that he would be just fine when I last stopped by (October) and told him I hoped the economy would treat him well. However, if I had to guess, he owns his place and has been there for over 30 years. And while he clearly has the equipment he needs to get the job done, and his records are well kept, the business office where I go to get my bill and pay it, is not “decorated.” It is just an old desk and a few chairs. And some car posters.

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 14:27:17

‘And while he clearly has the equipment he needs to get the job done, and his records are well kept, the business office where I go to get my bill and pay it, is not “decorated.” It is just an old desk and a few chairs. And some car posters.’

Where’s the sun-faded posters of scantily clad big-bosomed girls? Maybe then take them down when they know you’re coming, but otherwise, look, I’m sorry, but right up til then I was thinking you had you a genuine valuable ‘keeper’ of a repair shop.
But now, well…I just don’t know. I mean, that is like a recognized REQUIREMENT for all good and valid repair shops.

Comment by GSfixer
2008-11-25 15:24:23

Most of the parts/tool companies quit printing them about 5-10 years ago (they’ve been replaced with Classic/Muscle car calendars). And most shops now have policies prohibiting the display of same. Even if they are of your wife/girlfriend/FWB.

Another time honored tradition thrown under the PC bus.

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Comment by mrktMaven
2008-11-25 09:19:17

NASDAQ leading downward adjustment, off 2 pct.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 09:27:59

I’m not sure it’s wise for the PPT 109 to be out plying the seize today…

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 10:45:04

You don’t need a PPT on the days before Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc.

The markets are so thinly traded (= illiquid.)

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 11:06:00

I was more worried about the possibility of Asian Destroyers…

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Comment by QinQueens
2008-11-25 11:41:48

I used to watch the currency markets like a hawk. Thanksgiving has often been a time of big changes while the Yanks are out of the office. (big moves/trend changes/trend accelerations)

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Comment by fecaltime
2008-11-25 09:20:15

For the record, I have not paid rent in over 4 months now. My rental is in foreclosure. I am hoping to strech this to at least 10-12 months before I get a notice to vacate.

Fecaltime!

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 10:01:30

Don’t rub it in. We’re still paying rent.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 10:08:16

Endangered feces?

 
Comment by bink
2008-11-25 12:24:08

We fecal-feel4ya.

Comment by dude
2008-11-25 19:11:12

No need to feel for him, nor me. We are paying zip, zilch, nada, for what is most family’s biggest single expense. I bet FT has been building a cash reserve, I know I have.

I’m gratified to note the 4 month time frame. I’m interested to know what bank, how long from LL stopped paying was NOD, etc.

 
 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2008-11-25 09:30:09

what happens when a treasury defaults? People holding the 3 year will partially loose their principle?

Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2008-11-25 09:35:23

principal

Comment by Michael Viking
2008-11-25 10:57:09

lose

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-11-25 13:21:01

What

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Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 11:19:47

war

 
 
Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-11-25 09:31:15

From yesterday (my reply to this there got eaten):

Diogenes wrote:

Your math is faulty.

A 200% rise requires a 50% reduction.
A 300% rise requires a 66% reduction.

Good logic, but bad ciphering.

My initial statement was that a 200% rise requires a 66% reduction and a 300% rise requires a 75% reduction to get back to the original price. I do believe that our Greek friend forgot to add on the initial value in his calculations. Good thing his name is not Pythagoras otherwise I would have raked him over the coals :)

 
Comment by Michael Viking
2008-11-25 10:55:10

“New Government programs aim to help consumers get further in debt loans”

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-11-25 11:01:46

Consumers get their bailout…sort of

The TALF, or Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, is not to be confused with TARP, TAF, TSLF, PDCF or EESA. But all kidding aside, the TALF does differ in one major way from the other initiatives from the Treasury Department and Federal Reserve: this might finally help consumers.

Stone pointed out that before Lehman Brothers collapsed in mid-September, the Fed had less than $1 trillion on its balance sheet. As a result of Tuesday’s new initiatives, he estimated that the Fed’s balance sheet will eventually balloon to more than $3.5 trillion.

“As a whole, the consumer is tapped out. So while the government may want banks to start lending again, the better the question is to whom?” Norris said. “Does Washington really want banks to go out and start making more problem loans just to have this same problem again in five years?”

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/25/markets/thebuzz/

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 12:03:00

This bails out the banking system. It doesn’t absolutely nothing for the consumer who still has no job and no particular prospects either.

Until the focus goes from credit to jobs, this cycle hasn’t bottomed yet.

Comment by CA renter
2008-11-26 06:35:40

Exactly, FPSS.

Do you think they honestly don’t get it, or are there ulterior motives?

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 12:38:02

I’m sure Acronymomists everywhere welcome the new addition to the subtraction…

TALF = FLAT backwards

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 12:51:46

There are about as many automakers world-wide currently, as there was in the U.S. of A. in 1929, which got whittled down to the Big 3.

Is it likely there will be a new global “Big 3″ as the pretenders to the throne go BK, as in the Great Depression?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 13:00:42

I was just watching Icelanders riot (pretty weak effort-rusty no doubt) and some countries have a history of rioting (France comes to mind) but nobody’s rioted against anything in our country in a long time, certainly not since the 70’s…

Is there a riot-gap?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 13:07:11

p.s.

Here’s the aforementioned cool as Icelanders mixing it up…

http://wjno.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=244038&article=4635529

Here’s the 1st set of scores from the judges

4.3, 4.5, 4.1, 4.2, 4.6, 5.0

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 13:13:13

‘but nobody’s rioted against anything in our country in a long time, certainly not since the 70’s…’

Are you KIDDING?! We here in Olympia riot all the time! Man, it’s like collecting stamps or birdwatching to us! A casual hobby, suitable for the very young and also the venerable elderly.
Heck, I’m thinking of starting a log: ‘Rioted for the just cause of_______, on this date________, for this long___________, and threw this many handy objects_________”.

Like that.
Heck, I could start a riot this minute, with just this here magic marker and a bag of Twizzlers.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 13:26:43

I guess you never heard about the Rodney King riots in LA (1990s)?

Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 13:34:25

I was talking 1770’s…

 
 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 13:07:28

There’s a slow and steady rain going outside and I’m feeling pensive, HBBers. I’m thinking about salmon today.

I remember the first time I witnessed the salmon heading up to spawn, it was at McLane creek over in Capitol Forest, and I hadn’t been here very long, only a few months. I go trit-trotting up the path–it’s a very lovely trail–to where a preschool was hearing all about the ‘Cycle of Life’. Cycle of Life?! Well, lookit them poor things! This is a stupid f–cking ‘Cycle of Life! Who the F–K is in charge here, because they’re MEAN!’ Is what I thought inside my fluffy head, watching the creek full of fish.
It actually upset me quite a bit, all those poor doomed fish, all yellowed and tattered, trying so hard, beating themselves to flinders against the gravel, and they didn’t seem to be getting anywhere; I felt like crying so instead I jumped in, (this was a shallow part, of course, and why they were having such a hard time progressing) and grabbed one and went running it upstream past that particularly difficult bit of river stretch and then chucked it down in a pool. I did that quite a few times until I got tired. Good thing I was wearing good boots and don’t mind getting wet. Or slimy. Salmon are slimy.
For some odd reason the salmon didn’t seem to appreciate it much.
Stupid salmon!

Impressed the hell out of the little kids, though.

Okay, now I’m going to go sit and think about salmon some more. It’s an important subject, you know.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 13:32:54

Can’t you just grab one to eat?

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-11-25 13:46:44

Nope, them’s all beat up by the time they get that far upriver. Maybe you could smoke them? They go a funny color, too. You gotta catch them at the mouth of the river, I understand.

But I like your gusto. When I’m not maudlin and full of sorrow and splashing around stupidly, normally the first thing I think, when confronted with anything, and everything, is: ‘What does THAT taste like, I wonder?’

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 13:25:39

MARKETWATCH FIRST TAKE
Core values
Commentary: Home-price plunge reminds us what our houses are — and aren’t
By MarketWatch
Last update: 11:31 a.m. EST Nov. 25, 2008

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) — For most Americans, their home is their biggest investment. So when we read about record declines in U.S. home values, we naturally think our investment is in the tank.
But just because buying a house represents the biggest financial commitment most of us will ever make does not mean that its value is in its price and that if that price does not go up year after year we are somehow an investment failure.

That kind of thinking may apply to your retirement savings. Indeed that philosophy is the one Wall Street has pushed on all of us in selling the idea that we need to keep a good chunk of our nest egg in stocks because, historically, stocks have provided the kind of return we need if we are to retire “comfortably.” But houses are not stocks — even though the prices on them are acting like equities in a bear market.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-11-25 13:31:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the three stages of an investment joke:

[1] It’s a great investment.
[2] I’m in it for the long-term.
[3] Somebody, anybody give me a bid.

Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 15:48:13

4) You can keep the cheese, just let me out of the trap.

 
 
 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2008-11-25 13:34:56

Mortgage Rate Takes Record Drop to Below 5%
Reuters | 25 Nov 2008 | 02:38 PM ET

Rates on U.S. 30-year mortgages posted a record drop of 1-1/8 percentage point to 4-7/8 percent on Tuesday, after the Federal Reserve said it would implement a $600 billion plan to support the mortgage securities market.

The decline on the Mortgage Point Monitor is the biggest since the data series began in 1998, according to David Beadle, president of BestInfo.

The drop is also a one-day record since at least 1988 using other data, he said.

Comment by clue
2008-11-25 13:40:26

Comment by clue
2008-11-25 07:46:40
quantitative mortgage easing aint gonna work.

I stand corrected.

but crashing the loan lock at Wells Fargo systemic managment should give an indication that even lower rates will work even better.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-11-25 13:43:33

“Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The trouble-makers. The round heads in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status-quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them. But the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.”

Jack Kerouac

Comment by Muggy
2008-11-25 17:31:02

“Sell crazy someplace else, we’re all stocked up here”

Melvin Udall

 
 
Comment by alta
2008-11-25 14:44:33

Looks like the rich haven’t arrived yet in the “New Santa Barbara”….

Weaker housing market, incomes dog Santa Cruz County residents
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_11071280

 
Comment by PerplexedContrarian
2008-11-25 17:15:15

Hoz,

I miss seeing the collated list of layoffs that you used to post on a fairly regular basis. I don’t know how you compile the information, but it’s extremely useful.

Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 17:45:08

There are to many to post.

Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 17:55:40

Last weeks Manufacturing only. I keep a lot of categories.
These are confirmed layoffs.
14 Nov - 20 Nov 2008
AK Steel Holding Corporation
West Chester, OH
Coshocton, OH
One of Coshocton’s largest remaining employers, AK Steel Coshocton Works, is feeling the effects of the sluggish economy and laid off 34 employees Thursday. All but five are members of United Auto Workers Local 3462, said Union President John Williamson. The five had not yet made it into the union, he said. The layoffs were done by seniority, with the newest hires being the first to go. Personnel reductions were made in several areas of the plant, and the employees haven’t as yet been told how long the layoff might last, he said. “The bottom line is our economy is so bad we don’t know how deep this is going to go,” Williamson said. There are 377 hourly people employed at the plant, he added. The layoffs came two days after the company announced it was temporarily idling facilities in Mansfield and Ashland, Ky.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
Zanesville Times-Recorder - November 14, 2008

Alton Steel Inc
Alton, IL
Alton Steel Inc. is laying off a portion of its workforce in the St. Louis area as the economic slowdown causes steel sales for construction and other industries to slump. Forty one workers from the Alton plant are being let go. The layoffs take effect on Sunday, said spokesman Bill Keegan. Excluding the laid-off workers, the Alton plant employs about 290 workers.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
St Louis Post-Dispatch - November 14, 2008

Amphenol Corporation
Wallingford, CT
Sidney, NY
A Sidney manufacturer has laid off employees because of competition from other countries. Amphenol Corp., which produces electronic and electrical interconnect devices, has laid off 202 employees. The company applied successfully to the federal Trade Adjustment Assistance program to help workers retrain and find other employment. According to Rep. Kirsten Gillibrand, D-Hudson, Amphenol moved some of its assembly operations to Mexico and its non-military aerospace operations to China. Jerome Monteith, spokesman for Amphenol Corp. in Connecticut, confirmed Thursday that the manufacturer had applied for the federal TAA program. But he refused to comment further and hung up the telephone. “Any time we have layoffs, it’s a significant impact to our economy,” said Kevin Price, executive director of the Chenango-Delaware-Otsego Workforce Investment Board, which is assisting the firms and employees through transitions. Manufacturing jobs are available in the area, Price said, but in most cases, workers have to retrain to overcome a “skills gap.”
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Daily Star - November 14, 2008

Beta Steel Corporation
Lipetsk, Russia
Portage, IN
Union officials say they’ve been notified that about 110 employees of Beta Steel Corp.’s hot-strip rolling mill in Portage will be temporarily laid off. Andre Joseph of the International Longshoreman’s Association says the company notified the union on Friday. The layoffs at the northwestern Indiana mill were to begin Monday. Joseph says the company cited a weak demand for steel. He says the 110 maintenance and production workers will be laid off for about two weeks, then the entire plant will shut down from mid-December to early January. The union represents about 250 Beta employees at the plant. Beta Steel produces rolled steel products. The mill was bought for $350 million last month by Russian-owned Novolipetsk Steel.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Associated Press - November 17, 2008

Boise Cascade LLC
Boise, ID
St Helens, OR
Boise Inc. will lay off 300 workers from its St. Helens operation when it halts its pulp mill and reduces its paper production starting early next year, the company announced Monday. Alexander Toeldte, Boise’s president, said in a statement that the move “was primarily a function of declining product demand coupled with continuing high costs, which made it impossible to meet the company’s long-term financial objectives.” The employees, represented by the Association of Western Pulp and Paper Workers Local 1, have limited rights to jobs at other Boise mills. Some employees may be offered transfers but the company hasn’t identified them, according to a letter by Richard F. Roberts, Boise’s human resources manager, sent to state officials to warn of the layoffs. Roberts declined to comment on the layoffs, referring questions to the company’s media relations department, which didn’t respond to The Oregonian on Monday evening.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Oregonian - November 18, 2008

Brunswick Corporation
Lake Forest, IL
Cumberland, MD
Apparently even the recreational fishing industry is sweating the economy’s turn for the worse. Brunswick Corp., which makes products as diverse as fitness equipment and billiard balls, said late Thursday it is moving production of Trophy offshore fishing boats from a Cumberland, Md., facility to Ashland City, Tenn., and eliminating 115 jobs. The Cumberland plant is set to close by the end of the year. Brunswick Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Dustan E. McCoy said in a statement the decision was not a reflection on the product or the Cumberland workforce. Workers at the Cumberland plant will go on a three-week furlough around Thanksgiving as the production shutdown begins. The company says workers will receive severance and outplacement assistance.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Associated Press - November 14, 2008

Eco2 Plastics
San Francisco, CA
Riverbank, CA
Citing a need to streamline operations, recycling company Eco2 Plastics has laid off 84 of the 115 employees at its plant in the Claus Road Army ammo plant. Eco2 Chief Executive Officer Rod Rougelot called the layoffs a painful but temporary measure the company must take while it works out the kinks in new equipment. Getting that equipment up and running has reduced the recycler’s output and profit margins, Rougelot said. When the problems are worked out volumes will increase, he said, and the company hopes to hire back its workers and add a second production line that could create an additional 70 jobs. Rougelot said he can’t predict when that will happen, but he’s hopeful that some workers will be hired back in December or January.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
Modesto Bee - November 15, 2008

Freescale Inc
Austin, TX
The local impact of Freescale Semiconductor Inc.’s staff cuts is beginning to become clearer. Freescale announced plans in late October to cut at least 2,400 jobs from its global workforce. According to WARN letters sent to the Texas Workforce Commission, the company plans to lay off a total of 138 people at facilities in Travis and Williamson counties in January. Freescale is eliminating at least 10 percent of its worldwide work force of 24,000 people in an effort to cut costs. The company employs about 5,000 people in the Austin area. A spokesman told the Austin Business Journal in October that the job cuts would begin this year with most of the eliminations complete by the first part of 2009.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Austin Business Journal - November 17, 2008

General Tobacco
Mayodan, NC
General Tobacco Co. will cut 31 jobs from its Mayodan plant. Melissa Chantres, a spokeswoman, said the job cuts would trim the workforce to 95 full-time employees. General Tobacco moved from Miami to its current Mayodan plant on South Ayersville Road in 2007. The company released a statement Friday afternoon. “In an effort to cut operating costs, it is with regret that General Tobacco has had to layoff 31 employees due to today’s economic volatility. As is the case with most U.S. industries, General Tobacco has been affected by the sweeping downturn in consumer spending. It is our sincerest hope that this economic hardship, being felt by all, will pass quickly so that we may bring these employees back, who we consider family,” said J. Ronald Denman, executive vice president and general counsel for the company. General Tobacco begun manufacturing and distributing its first U.S.-made tobacco products at the Mayodan plant in March. The company makes GT One, Silver, 32 Degree cigarettes and Vaquero Little Cigars.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
The Reidsville Review - November 14, 2008

Insituform Technologies Inc
Chesterfield, MO
Insituform Technologies Inc. announced late Tuesday that it plans to eliminate 35 of its management and support staff positions. Approximately half of the positions are located at the company’s headquarters in Chesterfield, with the remainder based throughout North America. All employees whose jobs are to be eliminated have been notified and will be provided transitional assistance, the company said. Insituform said it expects to save $4.2 million a year as a result of the job cuts. The company will record pre-tax charges of $1.6 million in the fourth quarter related to the reorganization and position eliminations. The job cuts are part of a plan announced more than a year ago to reduce operating expenses and are not in response to the current economic environment, said Joe Burgess, president and chief executive. Chesterfield, Mo.-based Insituform Technologies Inc. (Nasdaq: INSU) provides rehabilitation and repair services to sewer, water and other underground piping without digging and disruption.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
St Louis Business Journal - November 18, 2008

International Game Technology
Reno, NV
International Game Technology began breaking the bad news this week to some of the individual workers who will be among the approximately 300 who will face buyouts or be laid off at the Reno headquarters of the world’s largest maker of slot machines and casino systems. IGT expects to lose about 500 workers from its total of 5,400. About 3,000 employees currently work at the Reno facility. IGT Chairman and Chief Executive Officer TJ Matthews said in an e-mail to employees in mid-September that the amount of layoffs would be determined by how many workers take the voluntary buyouts offered to staffers 55 year of age or older.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Associated Press - November 14, 2008

Jarden Corporation
Rye, NY
Ft Smith, AR
Plastics manufacturer Jarden Process Solutions in Fort Smith announced Tuesday it will close in January, putting 93 employees out of their jobs. The plant’s key customer is the Whirlpool factory, though Jarden also attributed the closure to general economic conditions. Since 2006, the Whirlpool refrigerator plant slashed its workforce from 4,600 to about 1,200, a decline of 74 percent. The plant last week followed through on its plan to lay off the additional 700 workers. Jarden produces plastic parts for the Whirlpool plant.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
The Associated Press - November 19, 2008

Jayco Inc
Middlebury, IN
Topeka, IN
Another area RV maker is shedding jobs. Middlebury-based Jayco Corp. announced Monday that will close its plant in Topeka where its Starcraft RV subsidiary operated. The plant employs 244 who earn between $12 and $25 an hour. Jayco will move production of Starcraft campers to Middlebury, which is in Elkhart County and about 19 miles from Topeka. “We plan to move as many people from Topeka to Middlebury as possible,” said Sid Johnson, Jayco’s director of marketing. “But right now, I think that would be very few.” With decreased sales of Jayco’s other products, Johnson said moving Starcraft production to Middlebury likely would be just enough to keep workers there busy. Starcraft RV makes a line of pop-up campers, truck campers, travel trailers and fifth-wheel trailers. Johnson said the company would probably complete the closure of the Topeka plant in January. In a statement issued by Jayco, President and CEO Derald Bontrager acknowledged the hardship the cutbacks would cause. “But the industry has been hit hard, first by runaway fuel prices and, more recently, by severely diminished consumer confidence and a significant decline in the supply of credit at both the retail and wholesale levels,” Bontrager said in the statement.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Fort Wayne Journal Gazette - November 18, 2008

JCB Inc
Staffordshire, England
Pooler, GA
JCB Inc., manufacturer of construction equipment, says it will lay off 120 employees at its Pooler plant near Savannah. The company said Thursday the layoffs represent about a quarter of its Pooler work force and that the cuts will take place on Friday. The British-based company opened its only North American plant nine years ago. John Patterson, chairman and CEO of JCB Inc., said the falling housing market and tightening credit markets has caused construction equipment manufacturers in the U.S. and worldwide to scale back production. Spokeswoman Karen Guinn said the company has no plans to close the Pooler plant. The company said affected workers have been given severance packages.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Associated Press - November 14, 2008

KLA-Tencor Corporation
Milpitas, CA
KLA-Tencor Corp. said Tuesday it plans to eliminate the jobs of 15 percent of its approximately 6,000 employees in a cost-cutting move. Milpitas-based KLA-Tencor (NASDAQ:KLAC) said the jobs reduction is one of many cost-cutting actions it is taking “in an effort to lower the company’s quarterly operating expense run rate to approximately $165-170 million by the end of fiscal year 2009 in response to the current demand environment.” CEO Rick Wallace said in a prepared statement, “Our employees are the heart of our organization, so it is with considerable reluctance that we are proceeding with this necessary reduction. We will continue to monitor the demand environment and make the necessary adjustments to weather this downturn, help optimize our profitability, maintain our strategic focus and strengthen our competitive position.” KLA-Tencor currently estimates that, in connection with the workforce reduction, it will incur an initial charge in the range of approximately $15 million to $20 million, almost all of which is related to estimated severance costs associated with the workforce reduction.
Approximate Affected Workforce: N/A
Silicon Valley / San Jose Business Journal - November 18, 2008

Kohler Company
Sheboygan, WI
The prolonged housing slump and weakened economy is causing the Kohler Company to continue to make cuts in its workforce. Kohler says 73 administrative employees in kitchen and bath and corporate operations have been notified that they will lose their jobs. Public affairs manager Todd Weber says all will receive severance packages. Kohler laid off 50 employees last month and more production workers earlier this month, bringing the total number of laid off union workers to 500.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
The Associated Press - November 19, 2008

Louisiana-Pacific Corporation
Nashville, TN
Louisiana-Pacific Corp. has eliminated about 200 salaried positions, which represents about 14 percent of its salaried workforce. The company is also reducing marketing and sales expenditures, freezing salaried employee wages and moving its information technology operations into a maintenance mode due to current business conditions. LP (NYSE:LPX) anticipates a fourth quarter charge of $8 million to 10 million for severance related to the layoffs, CEO Rick Frost says. The stock closed Tuesday at 1.62, down 28 cents (or 14.74 percent) from the previous day’s close. “In addition, we have scrutinized all activities we can cut back or put into hibernation during this housing downturn, and as a result have eliminated our flight operations and research and development facilities,” he says. “These right-sizing actions should reduce the company’s cash usage by about $30 million to $35 million on an annualized basis.”
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Nashville Business Journal - November 18, 2008

Magnussen Home
New Hamburg, ON
High Point, NC
Magnussen Home Furnishings has temporarily laid off 16 employees at its New Hamburg headquarters. Chief executive Richard Magnussen said the move was necessary due to slow demand for the company’s furniture in the U.S., which accounts for 80 percent of its sales. Canadian sales have proven solid, Magnussen said. The company, which employs 168 people worldwide, also eliminated five jobs at its High Point, N.C., offices.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
Waterloo Region Record - November 18, 2008

Meadow Lake Oriented Strand Board Limited Partnership
Vernon, BC
Meadow Lake, SK
The Meadow Lake Oriented Strandboard Ltd. Partnership plant has served layoff notices to all hourly employees, said plant manager Parker Snyder. These notices are effective Jan. 19 and are the result of difficult economic conditions and a housing slowdown, said Snyder. “We’re positioning ourselves in anticipation of difficult market conditions this winter,” he said in an interview. “It is traditionally a slow time for construction.” Brad Thorlakson, president of Tolko Sales and Marketing, which owns the mill, said in a news release the company is working with the government of Saskatchewan on issues within its control. “Unfortunately, further deterioration of our products’ markets and the need to anticipate conditions at least eight weeks from now require us to make this announcement,” said Thorlakson.
Approximate Affected Workforce: N/A
The Star Phoenix - November 15, 2008

MeadWestvaco Corporation
Glen Allen, VA
Sidney, NY
Another Sidney manufacturer has laid off employees because of competition from other countries. Earlier this month, MeadWestvaco Office Products Group in Sidney said 56 employees were temporarily laid off because of seasonal changes in business, and they were to be called back to work as needed. About 1,100 people are employed at the plant, a union official said, and the layoffs were from among 750 local Communications Workers of America workers. Since MWV makes such products as calendars, the layoffs are a regular part of the company’s business cycle, officials said in the release, though the slowing economy has had an impact on sales. MeadWestvaco in a prepared statement Thursday said the company’s leadership continually evaluates staffing needs to remain strong while operating in a cost-efficient manner.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
The Daily Star - November 14, 2008

MeadWestvaco Corporation
Glen Allen, VA
Grover, NC
MeadWestvaco Corp. announced Monday that it will close a packaging plant in Grover, cutting 120 jobs at the Cleveland County factory. Some production from the factory will be transferred to other plants, Glen Allen, Va.-based MeadWestvaco said in a statement. The facility, which produces packaging for the media and entertainment industry, is expected to close by early next year, the company said. MeadWestvaco said last month that high raw-material costs and a rising U.S. dollar will reduce fourth-quarter profit. Third-quarter net income fell 55 percent as manufacturing costs rose and the slowing economy reduced sales of school supplies, Bloomberg News reported. “In today’s challenging economy, we must focus on managing the cost elements that we can directly control,” Steve Scherger, president of beverage and media packaging, said in the statement.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The News & Observer - November 18, 2008

Miller Electric Manufacturing Company
Glenview, IL
Appleton, WI
Miller Electric Mfg. Co. today announced plans to eliminate 95 jobs, or approximately six percent of its 1,500-person workforce. This reduction is in response to the current national economic situation and the corresponding slowdown in demand for Miller’s commercial and industrial products. Miller is a leading manufacturer of arc welding and plasma cutting equipment for industrial, construction, motor sports, farm / ranch and home-hobby use. The company is a wholly owned subsidiary of Illinois Tool Works (NYSE: ITW), based in Glenview, Ill. As part of ITW, Miller does not disclose annual sales. The majority of the company-wide workforce reductions will be in the Appleton area, where 60 office positions will be eliminated, and 35 Miller plant personnel will be laid off between now and early January 2009. Plant personnel releases will be based on seniority. Miller is also offering voluntary separation packages to interested employees. All personnel affected would receive one week’s pay for each year of service, as well as outplacement counseling.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
Business Wire - November 19, 2008

Motion Industries Inc
Atlanta, GA
North Bay, ON
Motion Canada has temporarily laid off 26 employees to help the Gormanville Road manufacturing facility weather the recent downturn in the economy. There are now 55 staff left on the payroll and branch manager Kelly McCarthy said this should be the extent of their cuts. It was bleed heavy all at once rather than bleed a little every week,” McCarthy said, explaining why such a large percentage of the workforce was cut at once. Motion Canada, a division of Motion Industries and a sister company of global manufacturing giant NAPA Auto Parts, issued a media release late Friday afternoon. McCarthy said he wants to dispel rumors already circulating about inflated layoff numbers. We regret having to lay off anyone, but due to the recent decline in the mining sector and the poor forestry market we were left with no other choice,” the release stated.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
North Bay Nugget - November 15, 2008

Praxair Technology Inc
Danbury, CT
Tonawanda, NY
Just two weeks after posting record quarterly earnings, Praxair is cutting 60 jobs at its research and development center in the Town of Tonawanda as it prepares for leaner times. The cuts represent 5.4 percent of the company’s workforce of 1,100 at the Praxair Technology Center, which houses the company’s research and development, engineering, information technology and other functions. Spokesman Nigel Muir blamed the “current economic downturn in the U.S. and globally,” which prompted the world’s largest industrial gases company to make “some fairly significant cuts in its planned spending” for the fourth quarter and 2009. Officials are still working on the final numbers, which are confidential, he said. As a result, he said, the company is reducing staff across all functions to keep costs in line with its slimmer operations “as we go into next year.” Muir said the affected researchers, engineers and technology workers will remain on the payroll through the end of the month, and will get severance pay and outplacement assistance.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
Buffalo News - November 14, 2008

Ranger Boats
Minneapolis, MN
Flippin, AR
Ranger Boats in Flippin laid off 130 employees and extended its normal two-week plant closing to four weeks in December because of a drop in orders from dealers, company officials said Thursday. The layoffs, which were effective Wednesday, represent about 17 percent of the fiberglass boat maker’s 750 employees, human resources director Cheryl Davenport said in an interview Thursday with KTLO Radio in Mountain Home. Davenport told the radio station the layoffs were considered temporary because Ranger anticipated recalling the workers in January. The plant is owned by Genmar Holdings Inc., a recreational boat manufacturer based in Minneapolis, Minn. Genmar President Roger Cloutier also didn’t return phone calls.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette - November 14, 2008

Richardson Industries
Sheboygan Falls, WI
Sheboygan Falls-based Richardson Industries Inc. announced that it has laid off 18 production workers at its yacht interiors plant following an industry-wide drop in yacht sales. The employees were let go last week, according to Gary Kane, president of Richardson Yacht Interiors, who said the boating industry as a whole is being hit hard by the economic downturn and a lack of credit for consumers looking to purchase high-end recreational boats. “It’s all part of the credit crunch,” Kane said. “Financing for people looking to get a boat is just not a high priority for lenders right now.” The layoffs bring the division’s total workforce to about 40 employees, down from its high of about 60 this summer. The laid off workers were employed at the Richardson Yacht Interiors plant, 904 Monroe St., in Sheboygan Falls, which produces upscale furniture for world-class yacht builders.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
The Sheboygan - November 14, 2008

Schaeffler KG
Herzogenaurach, Germany
Spartanburg, SC
Schaeffler Group officials say the automotive parts maker is shipping nearly 120 jobs from its INA ball bearings plant in Spartanburg to Mexico over the next six months. The vice president of human resources for Schaeffler’s U.S. headquarters in Fort Mill said the move is necessary for the company to be competitive. Greg Tinnell says production and shipping jobs will go to the company’s new plant in Iraputo, Mexico. The Herald-Journal of Spartanburg reported Thursday the loss will leave about 60 employees in Spartanburg, down from about 400 last year. The plant’s products include bearings and engine parts for auto manufacturers. Tinnell said workers laid off will get a severance package.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Associated Press - November 14, 2008

Sea Ray Boats Inc
Lake Forest, IL
Merritt Island, FL
Sea Ray Boats in Merritt Island laid off 60 of its remaining 255 workers Thursday, another in a series of layoffs brought on by the wounded economy that has reduced the work force to a sixth of its February level. The remaining workers face a holiday furlough, said Dan Kubera, spokesman at Lake Forest. Ill.-based Brunswick Corp., Sea Ray’s parent company. “There is no talk about a closure,” Kubera said. The layoffs involve hourly and salaried workers throughout Sea Ray’s production, development and engineering areas.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
Florida Today - November 14, 200

Simmons Bedding Company
Atlanta, GA
Simmons Bedding Co. will slash its salaried workforce by 20 percent due to the souring economy, the privately held bedding and mattress company said. The cuts include voluntary and involuntary layoffs and employees at all levels and divisions of the Atlanta-based company. “The decision to move forward with a workforce reduction is never easy, but we determined that it was necessary in order for Simmons to weather the economic downturn and be properly positioned when the economy recovers,” said Simmons President and Chief Operating Officer Steve Fendrich, in prepared remarks. “This past year has been very difficult for the entire bedding industry, which, in turn, has affected our retail customers and our company.”
Approximate Affected Workforce: N/A
Atlanta Business Chronicle - November 17, 2008

Snorkel International Inc
Washington, England
Elwood, KS
Snorkel International laid off a small number of employees on Friday. The layoffs came a week after workers at the Elwood, Kan. plant received letters stating the company might be headed toward more layoffs by Jan. 6. Dan Jenkins, a spokesperson for Tanfield Group, Snorkel’s parent company, couldn’t confirm the exact number of employees let go on Friday. One hundred workers laid off in September. The plant was shut down for a week in October and Mr. Jenkins said that the plant is scheduled for a two week shut down around Christmas. Snorkel manufactures and assembles commercial aerial lift platforms.
Approximate Affected Workforce: N/A
St Joseph News-Press - November 17, 2008

The Black and Decker Corporation
Towson, MD
Brockville, ON
Eight people are losing their jobs at Brockville’s Black and Decker plant as a result of a restructuring in the Canadian division of the manufacturer. Mike Staniford, vice-president of sales and service at Richmond Hill, said three employees were laid off in distribution and five technicians are losing their jobs in four to six weeks because of the closure of a repair shop in Brockville. “Anytime we have to let anybody go, it’s obviously bad news,” said Staniford, noting the local plant employs almost 100 people. He said the layoffs were announced a couple of days ago and affected all divisions across the country. He wasn’t able to provide details of severance provided to the employees but said that is an element the company takes into account. “We pride ourselves in giving them healthy severance packages in recognition of the service they’ve given to the company,” said Staniford. He said 30 employees across the country - almost 10 percent of the workforce - have been laid off because of the restructuring, which reflects the weakening economic conditions around the globe.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 1-50
Source: The Brockville Recorder and Times - November 15, 2008

United States Steel
Pittsburgh, PA
Gary, IN
Ecorse, MI
River Rouge, MI
Granite City, IL
Fairfield, AL
More than 50 employees at Fairfield Works are being laid off as part of a cost-cutting move by U.S. Steel Corp., which is eliminating 500 jobs in facilities across the country. Pittsburgh-based U.S. Steel declined to say how many layoffs are occurring at the massive steel complex west of Birmingham, but a United Steelworkers official said the number was around 52. Fairfield Works has 1,410 workers, the company said. U.S. Steel officials began notifying employees at Fairfield Works and other U.S. plants about the layoffs on Wednesday and Thursday, according to John Armstrong, a company spokesman. He blamed the move on the economic downturn, which has cut demand for steel products. He said the company hopes to rehire laid-off employees when demand picks up. ”We tried to hold on as long as we could, but the economy has forced us to adjust our production operations,” Armstrong said. Besides Fairfield Works, the layoffs will affect workers at U.S. Steel facilities in Pittsburgh; Gary, Ind.; Ecorse and River Rouge, Mich.; and Granite City, Ill.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
Birmingham News - November 14, 2008

United States Steel
Pittsburgh, PA
Hamilton, ON
One Hamilton steelmaker is laying off workers as the global financial crisis continues to batter the steel industry. U.S. Steel Canada is temporarily laying off 175 employees at its Hamilton plant as it extends the shutdown of its blast furnace. Steelmakers have been pummeled by the global economic slowdown and a steep slide in orders from key customers, including automakers. Laid-off workers at U.S. Steel Canada will not be called back until the Hamilton blast furnace, the heart of the plant’s steelmaking operations, is brought back to life following a shutdown that started late last month, said Rolf Gerstenberger, president of the United Steelworkers union at the plant.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Hamilton Spectator - November 14, 2008

Universal Veneer Mill Corporation
Newark, OH
Heath, OH
Universal Veneer Mill Corp. announced Tuesday it laid off 48 production employees Friday at its Tamarack Road facility, which produces and sells veneer. Dieter Heren, the company’s chief executive officer, said the difficult decision was based primarily on the sudden loss of a major customer that represented 20 percent of local production. He regrets the timing, coming just before the holidays. “It is emotional because you’re dealing with human lives and a lot of people have been with us many years,” Heren said. “It’s unfortunate. We simply did not have an alternative.” The company employed 252 at the Tamarack Road plant and 30 at its sales office near Heath before the layoffs. The plant eliminated its third shift, effective Friday.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 101-500
The Associated Press - November 20, 2008

Vermont Store Fixtures Corporation
Danby, VT
The economic downturn is hitting a Danby business that makes fixtures for retail and grocery store chains. The founder of the Vermont Store Fixture Corp. says 57 workers were laid off this month, leaving 30 workers at the company’s Route 7 facility. Founder Bob Sherman says the company’s average employment earlier this year was 90 workers. The 30-year-old Vermont State Fixture makes custom wooden counters, cabinets, mill work and displays. Sherman founded the business in New Jersey in 1970 and moved to Danby eight years ago. Sherman says he saw the slump coming and advised his workers earlier this year to make plans to look for other jobs.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
The Associated Press - November 18, 2008

Vocollect Inc
Pittsburgh, PA
Vocollect Inc., a maker of wearable, voice-activated computers, laid off 90 workers, including 65 at its headquarters in Wilkins, a spokeswoman said Thursday. Jennifer Clement, senior director of marketing in Vocollect’s health care division, attributed the layoffs to a slowdown in retail sales activity nationally. The retail sector makes up the majority of the company’s client base and, as a result, Vocollect has “restructured” its workforce. Vocollect makes a voice-activated technology used by warehouse and distribution workers for retailers such as Giant Eagle, Pep Boys, Office Depot and Pier One Imports. Employment at the Wilkins office is 350, Clement said.
Approximate Affected Workforce: 51-100
Pittsburgh Tribune Review - November 14, 2008

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 20:40:35

Wow — layoff announcements from A to V…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by hoz
2008-11-25 18:06:17

Back in the ’90s it was the ‘black card’, now I must have this card!

“We’ve introduced our very own PlayStation credit card … a new way to show off their PlayStation pride and earn reward points towards the purchase of PlayStation and SONY products….”
http://www.sonyrewards.com/en/gateway/?offerlink=sr150nowps3

I don’t even know how to use a playstation! My Granddaughter uses it! LOL

 
Comment by exeter
2008-11-25 18:43:33

There really is a God!!!!

Ann Coutergeist gets jaw wired shut!! lmao!

http://www.oregonlive.com/idahosportugal/index.ssf/2008/11/ann_coulters_jaw_broken_and_wi.html

 
Comment by clue
2008-11-25 19:09:35

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/chris-whalen-looks-at-geithners-record.html

from the post; “arbitrageurs”

“until the market is rid of CDS”

“Whalen is a banking industry expert (he sells a very high end research product)”

its focus is on the new pick at Treasury, some Guethnerd dude. Touches on the GM bankruptcy, bankruptcy looks like a non-starter sittin in the front yard POS Chevy Camero…I could go on and on..

 
Comment by Michael Viking
2008-11-25 19:57:52

“Massive new programs aimed at loosening credit”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081126/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown

“The latest federal moves raised U.S. commitments to contain the financial crisis to nearly $7 trillion — though no one thinks the government will actually spend anything like that figure, which would be almost half the nation’s total gross domestic product.”

I think the government will actually spend something like that figure. I think they’ve clearly shown they’ll spend and spend and spend.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-25 20:42:39

Old Fed: Pushing on a string.

New Fed: Dropping a nukular weapon on a string.

Financial Times
Fed adds $800bn to boost borrowing
By Joanna Chung in Washington and Michael Mackenzie and Nicole Bullock in New York

Published: November 25 2008 14:30 | Last updated: November 26 2008 02:40

The US Federal Reserve on Tuesday escalated its efforts to revive the financial system, pledging $800bn to bolster markets for loans to homebuyers, consumers, students and small businesses.

The planned intervention in consumer lending markets had a dramatic impact on interest rates for mortgage-backed securities, which fell to their lowest levels since January after having remained stubbornly high despite Fed interest rate cuts.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-11-26 00:51:35

Observation: So far Ben Jones’ view that there is nothing the Fed, Treasury, FDIC, GSEs, and any other of the king’s men can do to stop the housing bubble from imploding has withstood all bubble respiking policy measures undertaken to date. But the plan nonetheless apparently remains to reflate housing market price appreciation rather than letting fundamentals lead prices back down to affordable levels. The $800 bn injection into the zombified GSEs is the latest and biggest such attempt to thwart market forces. It will be quite interesting to see whether Ben’s “too big to bail” hypothesis withstands this latest and largest reflation effort to date.

Comment by ann gogh
2008-11-26 08:49:52

They are relentless in their ideas and poor Ben jones is fighting a one man battle against the shitstem.
We are here for you Ben Jones.

 
 
 
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