Bits Bucket For November 26, 2008
Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
About Me
Name:Ben Jones
Location:Northern Arizona, United States
To donate by mail, or to otherwise contact this blogger, please send emails to: thehousingbubble@gmail.com
PayPal is a secure online payment method which accepts ALL major credit cards.
Links
-
November 2024 M T W T F S S « Sep 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Photo Submission: hbbphotos@gmail.com
View the HBB Photo Gallery *updated 4/13/2008
We are witness to how a nation commits suicide. The U.S. has been running for years on a debt bubble which finally popped. Now the federal government is trying frantically to re-inflate the bubble. Persuading people to take on more debt in an economic collapse is insane. It only prolongs the necessary correction.
Fed Risks ‘Spitting in the Wind’ With New $800 Billion Pledge…
Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) — The Federal Reserve’s new $800 billion effort to combat the financial crisis is designed to make credit more accessible to shaken consumers who aren’t sure they want more debt.
Households and lenders may not respond much because of the wealth destruction from plunging property and stock values, and the deepening economic slump, economists say. That means banks may end up returning the Fed’s new liquidity through deposits at the central bank.
“We are sort of spitting in the wind,” said Michael Darda, chief economist at MKM Partners LP in Greenwich, Connecticut. “Banks won’t be throwing a lot of loans out there when they fear — rationally — those loans may not be paid back.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=ag3TJyGD73qk&refer=us
“Persuading people to take on more debt in an economic collapse is insane. It only prolongs the necessary correction.”
Everything that’s going on now, is a desperate attempt to keep the boat floating until January 20, and by so doing, pass the problem to Obama, somewhat intact.
It’s not going to work, but desperate men do desperate things…
Gimme a friggin’ break. Exactly what do the Pubs have to gain at this point?
Meet the new boss… same as the old boss.
In the end, somebody must be blamed.
Once ’ssshrubery is out of office, he’s out of public view, and the public-fickle as it is, and with a retention span of about a week, will blame Obama for somebody else’s mess.
What’s better for the country?
We pin the tale on the donkey, or the man that made it possible?
The real blame belongs to NoSingleOne.
Okay seriously, this mess cannot be blamed on any single entity. You could blame it on everything from
the human nesting instinct (exploited by Suzanne, NAR, et al),
to Reagan and whoever else allowed the credit culture to flourish,
to Clinton who relaxed standards while we were still in the safety zone,
to Greenspan who got us out of the dot-com frying pan and into the housing fire
to Bush who rode his bike, cleared brush, and supplied comedians with endless matieral
to banks who dispensed with lending standards when they discovered they could sell mortgages up the food chain and gather fees
to investors who encouraged selling mortgages up the food chain because they were greedy for fees
to “deferred interest”
to Moody’s and Standard and Poor’s who were paid by banks to give ratings to said banks
to the governments of Iceland and Norway, the Royal Bank of Scotland, and other assorted foreign entities who didn’t bother to type “subprime” into Wikipedia
to Robert Toll and Casey you-know-who for piling on
to Barack Obama, who is failing to perpetuate the good times.
“Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
Einstein
Don’t worry Alad. Your excited about your shiney new president right now. Rest assured he will do plenty to make the situation worse so that blame will not be entirely misplaced.
Someone forgot Barney Frank and Chris Dodd on the list of assholes with extra portion of the blame.
The blame train could probably be extended all the way back to the creation of Fannie Mae, interest rate deduction (or adjustment to exclude mortgage interest), and FDIC.
Bingo to all of you - extra credit to bluto. IMO in the end the single biggest party responsible for this mess is FDR with his socialist government entities that set the table for all this risk in the first place. Carter, Reagan, and Clinton prepared the appetizers, with probably Greenspan on the main course. Bush was the waiter who brought it all to the table. In the end though - FDR, and even before him the creators of the Federal Reserve, were the head chefs and mentors.
What about Nixon, who took us off the Gold standard?
They’re helping their friends, by and large.
Rush is already calling it the Obama recession.
Republicans are trying to set the stage for the mid-term elections that will occur in a mere 23 months from now.
aladinsane,
So… you’re -already- trying to “manage expectations”?
( I’m… pretty sure I said I didn’t want to hear any of that )
No, I think Joe Walsh said it best:
You bought it, YOU name it!
Gotta’ love old Joe.
(raises hand)
Wow - huge JW fan here. Nice reference - fairly obscure too.
I bought it alright, but the batteries don’t arrive until January 20th…
We’ll have to make do with whomever is President now.
I guess you mean Bush is desperately trying to blame obama. I think tou’re way off base
Re-inflate is right. On PBS last night, both the left and the right-leaning commentators were in agreement that the the credit crunch is due to housing, and we could solve this pesky credit crunch if only people began to buy houses again, oh woe and lamentation. But, nobody was buying a house was because buyers were waiting for the bottom. So, it’s wonderful that interest rates are dropping, because then people would buy houses again which would signal the bottom and get the credit markets moving….
[No mention of "moral hazard."]
———
Memo to commentators, all of you: STOP IT. JUST STOP. IT’S NOT WORKING. Playing with interest rates is effective only for the how-much-a-months, and all of them have already bit and got bitten. I’m the smart money, and I’m all you have left. If you want me to do my patriotic duty and partake of the American Dream ™, you better pony up a price drop, in line with income and rents. Never mind about the LIBOR, because “I can always refinance later. ™ (c) (R) ”
I’d actually write a letter to these bozos, but I know they’d just ignore it. The only reason they care about housing is that artifically propping prices will prevent further foreclosures from the NINJA crowd and save the idiot bank bonuses. That’s what this is really all about.
“…the credit crunch is due to housing, and we could solve this pesky credit crunch if only people began to buy houses again,…”
If enough media pundits and the experts they consult say this often enough, perhaps it will come true?
There’s no place like home
There’s no place like home
There’s no place like home…
Ante Em, is that you?
“I’m the smart money, and I’m all you have left. If you want me to do my patriotic duty and partake of the American Dream ™, you better pony up a price drop, in line with income and rents. Never mind about the LIBOR, because “I can always refinance later. ™ (c) (R) ”
Well said, Oxide! In one of yesterday’s articles, some shill was saying words to the effect of “people are afraid to buy”. That is wrong, wrong wrong. The smart money will step in when the price is right. And a whole lot of not-so-smart money is starting to figure out that a debt-based lifestyle isn’t such a good idea after all.
a whole lot of not-so-smart money is suffering from an acute shortage of money and credit & just starting to realize the situation isn’t going to improve any time soon.
How about this argument.
The government isn’t pushing Americans to take on more excessive debt. The Federal Reserve is merely taking the role of the entire financial system and doing the more limited lending that should have taken place anyway.
For years we have had “disintermediation,” with the securities industry and non-depostiary institutions taking the place of banks. Now securitization has collapsed.
So everyone who needs loans have to go to the shrivelled banks, which lack the capacity to make them. Which leaves the government, at least for now.
The problem is, that means the government is deciding who gets money and who doesn’t, which in short order will be based on campaign contributions, favors and deals. I hope this doesn’t go on for long.
WT Economist,
Thank you. Right now the gov’s role is to get consumer’s debt “right-sized” by whatever means available. I think even the PTB realizes there’s little hope of creating a spending spree.
Now… if getting PITI down just so enables them to buy that new SUV, well then so much the better but I don’t believe it’s the design here.
don’t worry, the same is going on in Europe, so they will all go down together:) Now that the EU banking bailout is going according to plan, massive bailouts / subsidies for the car and homebuilding industries are in the works.
Our Dutch politicians are starting an investigation as to why mortgage rates are ‘too high’ (as in: slighly above the 400-year low). Some political parties are also lobbying for massive homeowner support (while homeprices are not even yet declining …).
The Euro budget deficit rules are going out of the window as well; I’m sure the FED is quite happy with what their EU friends are doing.
Which is why I’m not so sure the dollar will go down.
it WILL go down, but maybe not relative to the Euro.
I’m pretty sure about the dollar going down a lot vs. gold.
You may very well be right.
I am pretty sure the Fed’s preferred outcome is that the dollar goes down in synch with all the other OECD country currencies. Begger-thy-neighbor cross-border currency wars would be replaced by collective taking of wealth away from developed country retirees on fixed-income pensions.
“(as in: slightly above the 400-year low)”
Get back to me when you have more data.
my country has the world record when it comes to homeprice data records
Right, and I believe that’s why Robert Schiller based so much of his research on you guys. Say what you may about the Dutch but by God they keep good records!
The timing of the measure to use $800 bn to reprime the GSE securitization pump seems conspicuous, coming a couple of days after the announcement that Summers was to join O’s economic team.
This is where Fannie and Freddie step in
August 26, 2007
By Lawrence Summers
Rates fell yesterday as a result. It will help but not as much as some expect. Most underwater FBs won’t be able to refinance unless they get a MOD. Most new buyers won’t be able to take advantage unless they have stellar credit and down payment moneys.
And those with the stellar credit and down payment moneys ain’t got the required stupid.
Anyone have a guess as to how low rates will go? I don’t want to buy based only monthly payment, but I’m admittedly getting nervous about my sidelined cash position being rapidly devalued within the next year.
Fed Risks ‘Spitting in the Wind’ With New $800 Billion Pledge…
Is this 800b in addition to the 700B ? 1.5 T is that the new number ?
Yes.
decefits, decifits = deficits
Sorry about the typo, if it ever shows up.
Oh, I had some hope that things might change. Right away we sound like we are still going down the same path. Another 800B stimulus package.
What is going to happen? Oh, the bankrupt people that surround us will take the free money and rack up more debt. Its not like they are going to get any more solvent so might as well just spend it.
We need more debt like we need another hole in our heads.
Anyhow as the saying goes: Dakota tribal wisdom says when one finds oneself in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.
I guess we will try making the whole larger and more comfortable.
We are progressing to the next exciting phase of the crisis. Shooting the survivors. Its what the government does best.
I am giving in and buying gold today and fleeing the dollar. The massive rate of growth of bailouts makes me believe a collapse will happen in the next few years.
I am thinking of following your lead. But should I leverage this move to gold? (Borrow money that will be worthless in a few year to buy gold?). I can use my existing assets as collateral.
Topic suggestion: next shoe to drop?
We called the homebuilders, the mortgage insurers, the banks, the brokerages, and several other segments I wasn’t smart enough to short.
There were some segments thatI totally missed, but which in retrospect seem would have been easy to predict: furniture, home furnishings, and the like.
Thought experiment: any “more predictable” segments that will come to harm, or are we strictly in an everyone-feels-the-pain-recession at this point?
Any thoughts on what will do well during even this downturn? Will traditional recession-resistant segments hold up this time around, or is this one really different?
Cash should do well.
… and a job
But how do you short cash??
Buy a house. Get a mortgage.
Farmers and land prices are next, and, soon.
Agree on the farms. They were spending like drunken sailors on new equipments during the commodities runup. What will they do when the contract prices go through the floor next year? BK, Maybe even some of the big boys like CPO, MON, DLM.
They will cry for federal money, like they always do.
Seems to me CPO might actually do well if corn prices fell. Lower input costs.
Having sold my AZ house in 2006, I now have no desire to buy a house anytime soon. However, I have been talking to my wife about buying a farm - when the crash comes there and I can pay cash for it.
I grew up in MT and my dad was a farmer. He eventually lost the farm to the bank. He and his brothers had continually bought land with no money down and took on more debt. To top it off they bought a bunch of new machinery to add to the debt pile. When the rains didn’t come in 86 and 87, that was the end of it. They couldn’t sell the land and equipment for what was owed on it. Sound familiar??
I have learned from that lesson and am very cautious with debt. Now, with my winnings on my AZ house, I don’t have to be cautious with debt, since I have no need to take any on.
Am long pitchforks, pencils, apples and tin cups.
Don’t forget to go super long on those trenchcoats for those long soup lines in the cold. Can I buy Goodwill stock?
ha ha, I’ll bite. [disclamer blah blah don't sue me, please] Short on health insurance companies and non-generic pharmaceuticals. If any kind of health plan goes through, they’ll be de-profited and rightsized, some of them into oblivion. If the health-care plan goes radical into single payer and/or Medicare for everyone, there may not be any private health ins left. Long on oil, consumer staples, and health care supplies (like syringes and sheets). Very long on land near fresh water.
‘Very long on land near fresh water’
Of all my liquid assets, this is by far the most important of my holdings…
Make sure you have rights to that nearby water. You might be close to, but if it belongs to someone else you can’t touch it.
Got riparian rights?
I’m starting to like oil a bit more as a long, but I’m most often right and early, so I’m holding off a bit before I take a dip.
Dude,
Look at oil’s behavior after the last boom/bust. Might get a clue about timing.
Last boom/bust does not much apply here. Middle class in Chindia didn’t exist then. Didn’t. Exist.
The Oil-Gold ratio is all out of whack…
It’s been around 200-225 gallons per ounce for years, and now it’s closer to 400 gallons.
How much gold gets burned in use?
Countries with socialized medicine also have private health insurance that sell plans.
Short the cruise lines.
What do you mean? Senior citizens have rights!
Already there - CCL has been good to me.
It’s a trader’s market. Be nimble. Read charts. Keep ear to ground.
If I may redirect your original question:
What industry groups are currently seen to be bulletproof, but are in for trying times in the next 6-12 months?
Big healthcare insurance may be one of them, I’m not sure. Big defense, maybe. Others?
>Big healthcare insurance
Check stock prices on United Healthcare, WellCare, etc. They have been crushed. The horse already left the barn.
Obama started with some talk of frugality. So, I figure national defense will go in the tank. He’ll use the power of diplomacy to change the world.
It should work till everybody gets armed up and starts using the power of the gun.
You can feel it heading tword you but can’t do anythig to stop it.
He’ll use the power of diplomacy to change the world
As opposed to George “I want my war and I’m going to get it” Bush?
How did that turn out?
Don’t confuse the poor guy.
National defence will stay.
No-bid Halliburton-style national defense will go. And good riddance.
Short municipal bonds????
I hope you all have a happy and safe Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. And let us remember that we do indeed have a lot to be thankful for if nothing more than the sharing of ideas and knowledge here in this blog.
In the end we all have many things to be thankful for to include the ability to be open about our concerns and disagreement with the direction of this country.
This blog and the others similar to it are the small gathering places that made a difference in our past and I am certain that we are the better for it in the future. We have the ability to be a great country of good and honest people as we once were and I am proud to be a part of the movement toward that end.
Amen, dime, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
On another note, last night on the local Tampa Bay news, a story that a massive crackdown on mortgage fraudsters (it seems Tampa Bay area leads the country!!) is now taking place. They had an interview with the DA (Albritton?) heading up the effort. FBI is heavily involved. Perp walks coming soon, supposedly.
if you look at Realtrac for Tampa, its almost sickening the number of foreclosures across the area. There is not one area immune at all, and some are downright infested with with them.
Tampa Bay is number three in the country for foreclosures, number one for mortgage fraud! I’m soooooo proud!
My zip code, 33606, has very few foreclosures; “pre-foreclosure” doesn’t mean much. Prices here have not fallen, and houses are still selling at bubble valuations. Maybe not as many or as fast, but they are still selling.
I agree, it seems that most of the desirable areas in Tampa that are centrally located haven’t dropped much in terms of asking price (5-10%). It does seem like there are somewhat better deals in 33629 than what I’ve seen seen in the last year or so. I’m curious how many layoffs have occurred for people who would typically buy in the better areas. I also wonder if lower gas prices will make some of the more remote areas more attractive and thereby accelerate the decline of prices in the central locations.
Although we disagree on many issues (alad and combo) or the timing of outcomes, I’m thankful we’re still cordial and bold enough to argue our beliefs. Everyone learns when we disagree.
I really like mixing it up with combo, it’s like a real-life Mad Magazine ‘Spy vs. Spy”.
I don’t know what I would do without your virtual sparring…I have it for breakfast with my coffee.
Mad Magazine, a great magazine, ahead of its time. Alfred E. Neuman for President!!! “What me worry?”
‘Everyone learns when we disagree.’
I don’t bother my head with that learny stuff. I just like to watch because it’s so fun.
You dropped a twizzler…
I thought I’d share with the blog what a Nigerian scam response to a rental inquiry looks like on Craigslist. The ad itself was straight-up and literate. The response, not so much. And what’s with the “Dear” business? Whew, these guys are good!!! Exposure to this crap is one of the reasons I hate globalization.
“Hello Dear,
Thanks for the email and it is my gladness hearing from you.i am the owner of the house you are making enquiry of.Actually I resided in the house with my family,such as my wife and my only daugther before and presently we had packed due to my transfer from my working place and now situated in the (West Africa Nigeria) and presently my house is still available for rent ..including the utilities like hydro,washerand security. I went for a Crusade in the West Africa .
Pls i want you to note that,i am a kind and honest man and also i spent alot on my property that i want to give you for rent,i will want you to take absolute maintenance of my house and want you to treat it as your own,i,it is not the money the main problem but i want you to keep it tidy all the time so that i will be glad to see it neat when i come for a check up.
SO IF YOU ARE REALY INTRESTED I WILL WANT YOU TO FILL THE RENTAPPLICATIONS FORMS BELOW
RENT APPLICATION FORM
Also,Pls let me get this answer.
FIRST NAME:__________________
MIDDLE NAME: _________________
LAST NAME: __________________
PROFESSION: ________________
HOME PHONE (____) __________
(CELL)PHONE (____) __________
(WORK)PHONE (____) __________
KIDS _____ (YES/NO), HOW MANY ________
PRESENT ADDRESS: _____________________
CITY: _______________
STATE: ______________
ZIPCODE: ____________
HOW LONG DO YOU INTEND STAYING? ____________
WHEN DO YOU INTEND MOVING IN? ______________
DO YOU HAVE A PET: _____________
NAME OF PET: _____________
KIND OF PETS: _____________
DO YOU SMOKE? ______________
DO YOU DRINK? ______________
Looking forward to hear from you with all this details so that i can have it in my file incase of issuing the receipt for you and contacting you.Await your urgent reply so that we can discuss on how to get the document and the key to you,Note that the keys and documents of my house is with me here in west africa.please we are giving you the house base on trust and again i will want you to stick to your words,you know that,we do not see yet and only putting everything into Gods hand,so please do notl et us down in this our property and God bless you more as you do this”
my pet is called “ruin your carpets and spray your walls”
I drink to excess and projectile vomit as a daily habit.
I smoke only the worst Cigars.
I
I went for a Crusade in the West Africa
It’s the little details that make this scam so darn convincing.
(We’ll get you, Moors!)
He forgot MOTHERS MAIDEN NAME _________________.
I love the way these Nigerians always bring God into the picture somewhere.
They know that religous people ask fewer questions when you say Jesus God ect. That’s how GW got elected and I’d say he’s been worse than a million Nigerian frauds.
NAME OF PET: _____________
great way to troll for passwords
You have to love Chris Whalen.
http://tinyurl.com/5py9xj
Sssshhhhhhh. Don’t say a word.
Prepared for more of the same until proven otherwise.
Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) — Paul Volcker, the former Federal Reserve chairman who throttled the economy to crush inflation in the 1980s, will lead a new White House panel aimed at reviving growth, according transition team spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter.
Is there any other way to do it?
As one correspondent said on the NBC Nightly New yesterday evening, you should invest in a company that makes ink, since the printing presses are rolling:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/25/ST2008112502997.html
What’s the bet on how much money the Fed will pump into the system today? I’ll give even odds on straight $1T. I think they’re feeling generous for turkey day.
Well, my post seems to be held up in the system, but some correspondent on NBC Nightly News yesterday evening said that if you have any money to invest, put it into a company that makes ink, because the printing presses are rolling.
Oh what I wouldn’t give to see the ASS-ets these clowns are taking as collateral. It’s amazing that the American populace sits still while the Fed rapes their currency to prop up trillions of dollars of junk paper.
Ok, not that amazing.
Desperate times require desperate measures.
Think positive. Maybe this will be the end of the Fed. I’ve been calling my Congresscritters (well, I don’t call one of them, seeing as how he’s a complete waste of flesh) and telling them to get over “saving” the system. Scrap the dang thing and replace it with a monetary system based on real value.
“Maybe this will be the end of the Fed.”
I’m sure that will be Geithner’s top priority at Treasury. CityBoy shakes his head in disgust.
I don’t deny that Geithner will be desperately trying to feather his nest, but constantly calling my Congressional members and telling them to scrap the system is a good idea. The system is busted beyond repair, and if I wanted to live in Argentina, I’d move there. But I choose to stay and oppose the “system”. As has been proven over the last few months, we can do anything we want here. We CAN scrap the current “system” and go with something that works. I can at least call my reps and demand they DON’T confirm Geithner.
Don’t worry! Congress and the President Elect have a solution! Find the 5% or so of Americans who still manage to be productive, and raise their taxes by 20% or more to pay for everything! (15% social security increase + 5% marginal tax increase)
I guess the other 95% of Americans are on welfare?
Find the 5% or so of Americans who still manage to be productive
Bush has gotten the American middle class down to 5% of the population? I didn’t think even he was up to that.
Oh…. you mean rich people.
“down to 5%”
This is what happens when huge swaths of our population “contructively abandon” their jobs in favor of Koi Pond Speculation.
( You ‘did’ say it has a koi pond didn’t you? )
Find the 5% or so of Americans who still manage to be productive
You mean those guys like Ken Lay, Mozillo, Fuld, Prince, Toll, ect ect ect
These are the productive people??
Yes, them and all those CDS salesmen on Wall Street. They are among the most productive members of society and earn huge salaries (over $250k per year) and how dare we raise their taxes???
“It’s amazing that the American populace sits still while the Fed rapes their currency to prop up trillions of dollars of junk paper.”
Are you kidding? The new prez puts the top Fed guy in charge of treasury and you don’t hear a peep. And that’s on this blog, the blog that I think has been the wisest of them all. The excuses for not criticizing this move have been laughable.
Somebody wrote of there being a new chess game. Yep. And there is no shortage of pawns.
I guess most of us on here have figured out that the game is rigged and Obama and Geithner are just part of the process.
I could blather about my CFR/FED/Bilderberg theories but I try to maintain the impression I’m not a tin-foil hat type.
After eight years of “bad cops”, now we get the “good cops” again.
Sometimes I actually envy the ignorant bliss that surrounds those who think there is a material difference between the two parties.
Sometimes I envy our cats.
“I could blather about my CFR/FED/Bilderberg theories but I try to maintain the impression I’m not a tin-foil hat type.”
It’s not tin-foil hat. The masters of dis-information know that one way of hiding something is to make it so incredible that no one would believe it. This has been SOP for centuries. The FED, CFR and Bilderberg DO exist and they aren’t exactly ladies’ sewing circles. As you pointed out yesterday, Mark Cuban puts up a couple of websites to inform people about the “bailouts” and where the money is going (something the govmint won’t bother to do) and BANG! He gets slapped with a suit by the SEC for a transaction that took place years ago.
I miss auger-inn. He was constantly getting bashed on this blog for “wearing a tin-foil hat”, but some of his links were very informative. Also, he earned his right to post that stuff, having been in the Marines.
palmetto,
Never been too sure how I felt about Mr. Cuban, but you’re absolutely right. With everything that’s gone on in the last 2-3 years going after him for a measly 750k and then fast tracking the prosecution is like reaching into a festering cesspool and saying “This, this one turd really f@cks with me!”
Anyone know what happened to auger? I miss him as well.
Did he get “right-sized” by the government?
The emails to Cuban from the government officials are pretty funny. They definitely had it in for Cuban for quite a while.
RE: Anyone know what happened to auger? I miss him as well.
I’m pretty sure he and the SO was holed up in Bartlett New Hampshire, up Mt. Washington Valley way.
Might have decided to split though, once the state went Blue along with the cold weather.
A lot of wise folks on the HBB voted for change. Dont take them to the woodshed before oblova is actually in the hotseat. Let them get used to what will actually change at their own pace.
Brian: I’m not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, fvck off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we fvck off, O Lord?
‘the American populace sits still’
This stuff gets tiresome. It isn’t the US dollar, it IS the Feds money. If you don’t believe me, look at what it says on the face of it. The US dollar went away long ago, and this ‘American” (there really isn’t an America, but rather a union of States) populace is about as lazy as any empire has ever been. Did they do anything to stop the Fed from being organized? Did they prevent the legal incorporation of the federal govenment and then every single state, one by one? Do they stand up to constitutional outrages? Or do they give in, surrendering freedom for security every time? Or does the average person even notice?
I mentioned years ago, that if the Fed really wants to make this thing go away, all they have to do is create one big journal entry. All these corporations can debit and credit their way across the Federal Reserves bank system back into the Feds books them selves.
And the whole housing bubble can disappear into the inky black secret that is the central bank. That is, if they ARE all-powerful.
I thought about this the other day. People with like minded ideas used to have to meet to sound off their opinion. That is how rallies would get together. Now people with like minded ideas get together in cyber-space. Ideas get shared but there is no physical presence. The Internet has made the transmission of ideas much easier but it has diminished the power of “gatherings”. We now protest at our keyboards and not on the streets. I don’t know if this is any kind of improvement.
About 25 years ago i’d hang out @ Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park in London, whenever possible.
It was a breath of fresh air @ the time, people speaking their minds to an audience interested in what they had to say…
The internet is a world-wide Speakers’ Corner, and it’s still in it’s infancy, growing every day by leaps and bounds.
When the public has finally had enough of our ersatz leaders, the protests against said miscreants will be organized right here, in cyberspace…
Now people with like minded ideas get together in cyber-space. Ideas get shared but there is no physical presence.
If all you are sharing is an idea, why do you need a physical presence? The answer, of course, is that you need both electronic and physcial presence, to cater to the technological sophistication of your target.
You were correct three years ago, but no longer. Exhibit A: Election of 2006. Exhibit B: Election of 2008.
The 6 foot 4 man has a tremendous advantage over his 5 foot 6 counterpart in the real world, and even more so if he can talk over him…
It’s a very level playing field here in cyberspace, as we are all the same height and there’s no shouting aloud.
Speakers corner at Marble Arch, Hyde Park, laddie.
I’ve been there more than once in the last five years and you know I’ve never seen anyone speaking? If you go down into the tunnel for the tube though, there are people talking to themselves and imaginary persons around them constantly.
What a disappointment.
“If you go down into the tunnel for the tube though, there are people talking to themselves and imaginary persons around them constantly.”
When did Parliament start meeting in a subway tunnel?
Just another casualty of the internet…
One thing that’s disappeared from my life, is the art of telling a joke.
Jokes used to be spread by word of mouth, but now we read them, but seldom express them in spoken word.
“When did Parliament start meeting in a subway tunnel?”
LOL, unfortunately 911 changed things in a terrible way in London. It’s near impossible to go see parliment and the building is preminicent of what is seen in V for Vendetta.
“The Internet has made the transmission of ideas much easier but it has diminished the power of “gatherings”. We now protest at our keyboards and not on the streets. I don’t know if this is any kind of improvement.”
I worry that this is not good enough. We could be like the guy who gets buried in an avalanche, and has a cell phone, GPS, and laptop with him, and is in constant touch with the rescuers, but is nevertheless doomed. I think at some point we’re going to need some physical meetings if we’re going to make any difference.
‘We now protest at our keyboards and not on the streets.’
Speak for yourself, NYCity! I speak my mind/protest/proclaim/deliver soliloquies, etc. as long as I’m awake. Sometimes, so I hear, even when I’m asleep. Evidently some while ago in the middle of the night I stopped snoring, delivered a bit of a rousing and well-reasoned Jeremiad, and then went right back to snoring.
When I heard this bit of nonsense I screeched, ‘Shut UP! I DON’T snore!!!!’
One thing that’s disappeared from my life, is the art of telling a joke.
We got plenty of art here on the Internets:
:-O 
:-p
Isn’t 90% of face to face communication suppose to come through body language? Could be we’re losing 90% of the message through this medium.
Us cyber peeps need to get out more. Share a little body language. Tis that sort of nuance that ignites the passion in folk.
Interesting that they finally might have bitten off more than they can chew or manipulate. For this shell game to continue to work, a lot of other countries have to cooperate or at least act in the predicted manner. In there must be the assumption that no one of significance will break ranks and act in their self-interest at the expense of the rest.
As for the only solution I know of, albeit too late. my license plate surround:
Want real change?
Re-elect no one.
History says the Civil War was about slavery, and that was part of it. Another part was an attempt to remain a republic and thousands died fighting the all-powerful Federalism we have today.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have.” Thomas Jefferson
The civil war WASN’T about slavery, a popular myth perpetrated by Yankees after the fact; the slavery issue was tossed in by Lincoln very late in the game. The issue was states’ rights.
Most voters today seem to be borderline idiots or worse, with no concept of anything other than image, fad, and what’s-in-it-for-me. I don’t think the voting majority has ever been particularly bright, but this year it may have reached a new low. Imagine voting for a president based on pop star promotions, stage sets, neurolinguistic programming, and media hype. One might as well vote for existing celebrities and skip all the bother.
Politics has become a branch of entertainment. Most Americans couldn’t care less about the founding principles.
Incredulous,
More ‘thought’ went into picking the last American Idol.
I will say, I’d be bigger on “state’s rights” if they were used for something more than legal drinking age etc.
It’s funny to note that many counties in TX ( while still voting red ) had become more blue in ‘08. Hot Air noted that many techies from the Bay Area were attracted to the “business friendly environment” and other resources along with ‘much’ lower costs but… then imported their liberal politics from the BA.
Now, if that ‘truly’ is the case, several key counties in TX will turn from tradition as a result of their own generous policies.
“the slavery issue was tossed in by Lincoln very late in the game. The issue was states’ rights.”
-
Well, I got that one right in the civics test posted by the prof the other day because I knew that this was the answer they wanted; “new territories having the right to decide on slavery.”
-
However, both you and the civics test are wrong.
The civil war, as most if not all wars, was about economic issues, in other words, certain individuals wanted more money and power.
It always boils down to an individual, a person, not an idea and greed.
“new territories having the right to decide on slavery.”
That means slavery was the core issue…
The civil war, as most if not all wars, was about economic issues
Like slavery isn’t an economic issue? The southern states seceded because they were afraid of losing their enslaved labor force.
I was replying to “The issue was states’ rights.”
Of course slavery was the economic issue.
I was arguing that the civil war was not waged over such an abstract concept as “state’s rights.”
However, just in case, I reserve the right to be wrong in my opinion.
Slavery was NOT the economic issue, and it continued in some northern states after it was outlawed in the South by Lincon. The Emancipation Proclamation was not universal in scope.
The Yankees weren’t the enlightened anti-slavery beings they now believe, and the worst racisim I’ve ever witnessed has been in the North (especially upstate New York).
Historical revisionism is very tedious, but this Cival War over Slavery myth is downright laughable.
“I mentioned years ago, that if the Fed really wants to make this thing go away, all they have to do is create one big journal entry. All these corporations can debit and credit their way across the Federal Reserves bank system back into the Feds books them selves.
“And the whole housing bubble can disappear into the inky black secret that is the central bank. That is, if they ARE all-powerful.”
It would be less fun that way Ben.
Seriously - they really could do it that way. However if they did, then the secret would be out about how it really works, and they’d have a revolution on their hands, and you can’t kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
The funny thing is the Fed is starting to tip it’s hand. Witness the plunge in housing interest rates after the Fed agreed to spend $500 billion on FNM and FRE crap paper.
Now that’s something that no $700 bailout plan could accomplish.
Ben, I’d love to hear your opinion of what the true purpose of the Fed is. Come on….let it all hang out.
“I mentioned years ago, that if the Fed really wants to make this thing go away, all they have to do is create one big journal entry. All these corporations can debit and credit their way across the Federal Reserves bank system back into the Feds books them selves.”
the trick is getting workers to trade real labor for journal entries. They do now but only because of faith in the Dollar if that gets changed the government has lost much of their power. I know you’re joking about this but I wonder if it will be tried anyway.
RE: Or does the average person even notice?
Awareness of constitutional transgressions?
You’re talking about a constituency where 58% haven’t read a complete book for pleasure since HS.
Only thing the average person even notices is whether Britney has her underpants on or off on any given day.
You can certainly see where the dumbing down has all led.
With the “biggest shopping day of the year” coming up on Friday, they might want to just leave bundles of $100k at malls and plaza’s all over the country.
Or just give everyone those gubmin debit cards like they gave out after Hurricane Katrina.
Buy call options on strip joints, if they do that.
There are calls on Rick’s Cabaret, equity ticker is RICK. Scores holdings, which operates Scores Showroom in NYC, is trading for 1/10th of a penny, ticker is SCRH.
Maybe I should call my mortgage company and see if they’ll renegotiate my loan down to 4% or less?
I don’t understand how Paulson had to have Congress approve $700 billion in bailout money but yesterday was able to say that $800 billion would be pumped into the system. It seems to me that the system has broken down and the financial world is turning to anarchy.
“…the financial world is turning to anarchy.”
China slashing interest rates, Hank’s rescue plans du jour, all across the globe governments are frantically trying to prop up the system.
But therein lies the rub, with so many gov’ts making so many hurried moves it dramatically increases the likelihood that someone will make the fatal error that sends it all into an even steeper tailspain.
Maybe, they’ve already made that fatal error - we wouldn’t know because things are moving to fast - we’ll have to wait for the history books to tell us.
edge,
You mean like Iceland?
In their singlemindedness, today’s leaders are acting in the ultimate state of hubris. They take actions without debate and promote the false notion that should they make a mistake…they will be able to correct it.
By the time we learn the true turning point, it will be too late.
In their singlemindedness, today’s leaders are acting in the ultimate state of hubris.
Although I’m quick to allege that various muckety-mucks are filled with hubris, I think it’s more like a slow-simmering panic in this case.
Paulson’s secretive and erratic decisions bespeak a lack confidence, not an overabundance of it.
I watched Henry yesterday, stumbling, bum bling…
I felt sorry for him.
Good comment, I was also thinking this this morning. It seems the Fed can’t go broke, so why does the taxpayer or foreign investor need to take on any of this?
They are levering the TARP. They are moving assets off the GSE’s balance sheets, into a SIV, engineered by Treasury and the Fed.
Apparently this is a two part maneuver announced to appear as one. One part moves GSE assets directly onto Fed balance sheet. The other part is siv like:
Under the TALF, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (FRBNY) will lend up to $200 billion on a non-recourse basis to holders of certain AAA-rated ABS backed by newly and recently originated consumer and small business loans. The FRBNY will lend an amount equal to the market value of the ABS less a haircut and will be secured at all times by the ABS. The U.S. Treasury Department–under the Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008–will provide $20 billion of credit protection to the FRBNY in connection with the TALF.
The FRBNY better OK the TARP ASAP or we’ll all be SOL PDQ.
Be afraid, very afraid.
Kudlow on CNBC said just said “I like Obamas’ economic team … go figure.”
Yes, go figure.
Be afraid.
I can fully understand - the happy times of easy money will continue as if nothing happened; until the house of cards comes crashing down.
Good point NYCB .. How did Paulson get 800 billion all of a sudden . I find that Paulson and BB commit themselves and than they go for the money later . Did anybody think that the Feds lending short term money on bad paper during 2007 wasn’t going to end in the Banks and Investment firms not being able to pay it ? The Treasury and the Feds set the stage for having no choice but backing the Money Changers or they would of defaulted anyway on those short term loans , IMHO . All this nonsense about all of a sudden Paulson realized that buying bad paper was the solution under the TARP program . It was so easy to call
that massive bail-outs were in the cards way back when these clowns started injecting short term liquidity that propped up the Banks while they screwed around with doing nothing about their bad paper .I don’t know if it was a deliberate sit up, or if just happen because these clowns operate in panic and made the wrong moves early on .
Even more amazing - you are the only one asking that question.
In no other country is xmas shopping the holy grail, as it is here…
The big question about the nearly Trillion Dollars we lent ourselves would have to be:
We can lead a consumer to spend, but will they?
LOL, notice how hardly anything is said about “Thanksgiving” these days. It’s all about “Black Friday”. Yesterday, maintenance here at the condo complex put up the Christmas lights.
All I know is that all those feeling ripped off by all these bailouts should make an extra effort to stay out of the stores.
Of course I’ll be laughed at for saying that, just like everyone who said they wrote in Ron Paul or voted for a third party on Nov. 4 was laughed at too.
So let the rationalizations roll, and feed the beast - but know this - your dollar is more sought after today than at any time since the ‘81-’82 recession. Your dollar is your vote.
Besides, the sales will be better in Janaury anyway.
The best way to get even with these turds is to render their system worthless. By NOT spending.
Say it loud and proud with me, HBBers!
“NOT BUYING IT!!!” Do it. Walk into stores, on the streets, car lots, banks, etc. Pull your pockets inside out.
Say it loud: “I’M CHEAP AND I’M PROUD”
Your post reminds me of Alice’s Restaurant which begins on Thanksgiving. I must listen to it tonight.
“I’M CHEAP and I’M PROUND and, are you going to finish that?
“I’M CHEAP AND I’M PROUD”
I prefer saying in in French.
Je’ tres cher.
“We’re here. We’re austere. Get used to it.” (?)
Je suis tres cher = I’m very dear, dear can either mean beloved or expensive
Hear, hear! It looks like my “performance bonus” could be in the 5 figure range. The only thing I am planning on spending it on will be a Black Friday TV, which I expect to cost about $500.
“NOT BUYING IT!!!” Do it. Walk into stores, on the streets, car lots, banks, etc. Pull your pockets inside out.”
My favorite thing to do is to walk through stores pointing out how expensive things are and where i saw them at cheaper. I really like to do that within ear shot of the employee’s.
Sometime last summer I saw a lady in the garden dept. in Target wanting to buy a trinket that was on sale. Her 10 to 12 year old daughter kept saying over and over “Mom, leave it there we cant afford it.” The mother even called someone on her cell phone to tell them about the “Find” looking for encouragement to go ahead with the purchase. It was a sickening site to see, but it showed me how some people Cannot control the urge to spend money they don’t have.
“… your dollar is more sought after today than at any time since the ‘81-82 recession.”
Preach it, Brutha.
Can’t necessarily ‘disagree’… but I it’s kind of moot, most everyone here buys “used” already-depreciated items anyway… but point taken.
( Interesting side note ) A guitar collector friend of mine pointed out that even the Japanese hemlock Strats from the 80’s are probably a better caliber of wood than what’s available in the NEW American made Strats anyway!
I’ve been a Tokai fan for years.
Oh, in ‘my’ house Christmas shopping for dad has meant vacuum tubes, straps, strings and speakers for years.
“Look dad! It’s those Humbucker pick-ups you’ve always wanted!”
“…but I it’s kind of moot…”
Maybe so DinOR, but as Ben often points out - oodles of peeps lurk here. A lot of posters have even come to suspect that elements of the MSM lurk here.
So, it doesn’t hurt to repeat that not everyone is falling for their b.s. consumer illusion.
The mice roar.
“The mice roar” LOL, so true!
Ahem, ( actually “I” am usually the only family member that ‘insists’ on “vintage” items ) so let he who is without used “stuff” cast the first stone!
I have ‘no’ doubt the MSM/PPT are regular lurkers. After the cautious wording in some of the bailout language, I’m convinced of that.
Oh, in ‘my’ house Christmas shopping for dad has meant vacuum tubes, straps, strings and speakers for years.
A damn sight better than another ugly tie, in my book.
I’m not interested in betting on the Great Gambling Casino call Wall Street these days . Buying products that might produce jobs doesn’t bug me so much . We live in a spend economy where spending produces jobs ,which should be American jobs in a ideal world . So , as long as you can afford the product ,and its at a deflated prices to boot ,why not ?
The people that already spent need to pay off debt ,(or maybe they are waiting for a bail-outs ).
Today ,one of the Talking Heads was talking about a time whereby things will wear out and people will have to purchase again . Interesting how business projections are reduced to plans based on how long it will take for the spender to need items again . If it’s cheap foreign junk it might wear out pretty quick ,but if your broke and without a job you will not replace under any circumstances .
I have heard that LCD TVs can last as long as 30 years.
RE: A guitar collector friend of mine pointed out that even the Japanese hemlock Strats from the 80’s are probably a better caliber of wood than what’s available in the NEW American made Strats anyway!
Din/OR
Since your the residential board expert on guitars, I got a question for ya…Years ago (’86) I bought a Strat imitator constructed by Chandler Guitars of San Francisco. It’s got Seymor Duncan pick-up’s; Strat tone controls; whammy bar, & ash body done in Fireburst. It’s a decent lookin’ rig.
The entire purchase was done on a whim as I was just lookin’ for somethin’ to do on cold winter nights.
Over the years I’ve learned my guitar talent is zip.
Been lookin’ to get a handle on the guitar’s worth. Think I paid around a grand in ‘86. Any ideas?
The instrument is in mint shape.
“Of course I’ll be laughed at for saying that, just like everyone who said they wrote in Ron Paul or voted for a third party on Nov. 4 was laughed at too.”
Saw the best bumper sticker on fark.com a while back:
Ron Paul 2008:
We Told You So
CrackerJim
Yesterday you asked why I was going to change to Toyota after having a good experience with Ford , when I got home from work my response was.
Jim
No problem with the trucks , do miss the straight six they had on the F150 . My problem is with management and the union , evidently they run their company like our government runs social security and I don`t see why I should have to pay a workers pension that retired 10 years before the truck I buy rolls off the line. I always thought I was doing the right thing for America and American workers buying Ford products , but now bail this and bail that threats of massive job losses if they don`t get their billions , go back to Detroit you didn`t beg good enough. Bail all of them , I will buy a Toyota where at least the man or woman working on it get paid a decent wage and I assume appreciate it.
Ever wonder why a car sold in Europe costs 2-3 times more than the same car sold here? Worker benefits.
If you bail Detroit and protect the union Big 3 cars will have to cost double what they do now for the company to be profitable. Maybe they will just sell these expensemobiles direct to the government, which can crush them after purchase.
I’m going to boycott 7-11. I don’t like the color of the toilet paper in their restrooms.
‘I don’t like the color of the toilet paper in their restrooms.’
Your 7-11’s have toilet paper in their restrooms?! You must live in Poshville.
Then how can they export them here for less? We bought a Mini Cooper earlier this year, and at the time they were priced about 50% higher in Europe. Yet our Mini was built at the same factory in Oxford as all the others. I think they cost more over there because they are taxed up the wazoo.
Just don’t let the car sit too long, as coolant from the engine will get into the combustion chambers and crunch the engine when you go to start it….and Cooper will not cover it.
(see the message boards)
It’s weird to see people just make stuff up. A car in Europe doesn’t cost 2-3x more than the same car in America. They cost about the same. It depends on the country of course (believe it or not, Europe is a continent not a country)
Indeed they do. Why would anyone pay 2x for eurotrash like a Vulva, bmw or other assorted underperforming junk?
All you have to do is watch Top Gear to find out how much cars cost in Europe. Or just visit the manufacturer’s European websites.
For instance, in the UK a base model Golf runs at almost 12,000 pounds, whereas in in the US the base model is $16,000 US. And the US base model has a bigger engine and more standard features.
RE: Maybe they will just sell these expensemobiles direct to the government, which can crush them after purchase
Car and Driver had an article a couple months back about where Mazda had to crush 5700 NEW cars when the transport ship heeled over due to a ballast tank screw-up.
Some Texas company brought their crusher up to Washington state to do the dirty work.
It took 2 teams 4 months, to simply deflate all the airbags.
In doing the story Mazda forbid photographs to be taken, but the story team got some on the sly.
Pretty damn ugly event. Total loss was like $168 million.
The “decent wage” they pay in the southern auto assembly plants (hugely subsidized by State government in the same vein as sports stadiums) along with health care benefits are provided at just the right level to prevent unionization from occurring. This is by their own admission. When unions and the threat of unionization are gone, then watch where foreign company corporate elites take the system. It will be Wal-autoMart. Detroit based auto company executives are not the only greedy ones out there!
…and what would be so bad about that. If the skills needed on the line are worth $10/hr., then the workers should get paid $10/hr. If they’re worth more (or if people will not fill the jobs at $10), then they will get paid more.
THAT IS HOW WE REGAIN OUR MANUFACTURING BASE.
We will not get our base back through protectionism or socialism, rather we’d end up like the Soviet Union, with total crap for consumer goods, and a bunch of overpaid people producing them.
“I always thought I was doing the right thing for America and American workers buying Ford products”
In 2005 I sold my Mercury and bought a Toyota. The Toyota happened to contain a greater percentage of “made in USA” than the particular Ford and Chrysler models I was also considering - and it drove a lot better (ever drive a Sebring?).
The Ford pensions are actually pretty well funded.
The money you pay for a Ford today is put aside for current worker’s obligations ( and actually, they are not putting any money into the pension fund right now).
A lot of money goes toward providing health care for retirees. And I think you will agree spending money on health care for old people is just a waste of money. Especially when Solyent Green is just so darn tasty!
“And I think you will agree spending money on health care for old people is just a waste of money.”
THESE ARE NOT OLD PEOPLE. We already spend money on old people. It’s called Medicare. What’s killing the automakers (and cities like San Diego, for that matter) are the people that retire before age 50 and then collect for the next 15 or 20 years (often while working elsewhere). Yes, I know there are gaps in Medicare, but that is why pensions and SS exist, and even covering those gaps would not be killing the automakers.
Myths are sure tough to break.
Paulson, the red-ink rainmaker
had a very long nose.
And if you ever saw him,
you would even say it grows.
All of the other rainmen
used to laugh and call him names.
They never let poor Paulsonocchio
join in any rainman games.
Then one foggy Thankgiving Eve
’ssshrubery came to say:
“Paulson with the economy so tight,
won’t you lend out money tonight?”
Then all the rainmen loved him
as they shouted out with glee,
Paulson the red-ink rainmaker,
you’ll go down in history
Speaking of rain, what a beautiful storm we had last night in Los Angeles. Living in the desert really causes one to appreciate water from on high.
Too bad they still let the runoff flow freely out to evaporate in the desert dry lakebeds, or into the ocean; instead they should be channelling it into all the old gravel quarries that are found along most of the major water courses. At least that way the groundwater would have a better chance of recharge.
Did I mention the rain last night was lovely?
It’s raining cats & dogs here… (there goes a Cheshire)
We went bear hunting a couple a days ago and there was plentiful viewing from the comfort of our car.
We saw 8 bruins from around 3,000 to 4,500 feet, munching away on roots, grubs, acorns, anything really.
This storm probably means it’s time for them to hibernate, but I can’t imagine the economic bear market doing so…
You need an agent Alad!
Brilliant!
Leigh
Christopher Whalen, a banking analyst with Institutional Risk Analytics, told Mr. Sorkin: “All of these ‘rescues’ are a disaster for the taxpayer, for the financial markets and also for the Federal Reserve System as an organization. Geithner, in our view, deserves retirement, not promotion.”
I am sick of these ivy league hacks running the government. Columbia, Harvard, et al turn out the American Romanovs and Bourbons. This fish stinks from the head down.
With all due respect, I think you’re making an unfair generalization. Believe it or not, there actually are some very smart, talented, thoughtful and responsible folks who attend those schools. They’re not just country clubs for the trust fund set, though one could be forgiven for drawing that conclusion from watching our soon-to-be-departed president.
You seem to be suggesting that the federal government is directed by intellectuals. I think it’d be far closer to the truth to say that our government is directed by big business, which to a significant degree is anti-intellectual.
Note to myself posted here for everyone’s benefit:
Don’t talk about the bust at Thanksgiving unless you are sure that no one present has borrowed and HELOCed their way to oblivion. And it’s hard to be sure.
I plan to discuss it endlessly. And I plan to make sure my mouth is filled with food, each time, so that I am spewing forth giblets, and the like, while I rub salt in the wounds.
No lesson is ever learned that isn’t painful. Painful lessons should come with a cranberry sauce shower.
Famous last words between me and my sister, circa early September…
Me: Hey, are you hep with what’s going on, as we are on the verge of an economic meltdown and you might want to off your stocks?
Her: It’s no big deal.
“But lava is so pretty.”
Crackatoa, east of Jersey.
It’s not a big deal here in Florida anymore. Everyone understands if you stop making payments, being foreclosed, seeking hope assistance, walking away, leaving the state, etc. and so on.
If you buy something, on the other hand, that’s another story. Everyone is in disbelief about the price you paid. Mom said a friend of a friend paid 53K for a Townhouse. Unbelievable, right?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
“In a nation run by swine, all pigs are upward-mobile and the rest of us are fvcked until we can put our acts together: Not necessarily to Win, but mainly to keep from Losing Completely.”
Hunter S. Thompson
Too late.
Future macroeconomic historian’s risk:
With so many different bailouts continuously getting proposed and implemented, one of them is likely to have been recently rolled out just at the time the markets have finally healed. Future generations of economic historians will mistakenly conclude that this bailout measure is the one that worked.
That is what happened before; why would it be different this time.
I don’t know what everybody else feels like but it appears to me that there is truly no end to this deflationary “death” spiral. I mean if you let it deflate it will be like a financial nuke and if you stretch it out like the “helicopter” boys are doing it will cause unintended consequences (i.e. hyperinflation) over an extended period of time.
Is there anywhere to hide? Do I have to stock up on SPAM, ammo, pitchforks?
Stock up on cash.
Yes. You may need to burn it for heat.
With the FED churning out trillion every week this might not work out well for cash as in paper money.
Once again, what is cash? Short term treasuries? Green pieces of paper? Yellow pieces of metal? What good are they?
I’ve got a lot of short term treasuries, but the way they are going issued I’ve begun to wonder about that.
I’ve begun to think that my only real “assets” are a paid off house, an ability to be happy living cheap, and a willingness to work productively for less than the average American. The first and third are going down in value.
I thought it was pretty well settled here, deflation then hyper inflation. Which in turn means cash then anything but cash. The only question is when to move….
I thought it was pretty well settled here, deflation then hyper inflation.
That scenario hasn’t been settled here at all — it’s merely one of several competing theories with some merit. The crystal ball is still cloudy.
Just looking around, the deflation part seems to be happening as we speak (depending how you define deflation.) The Fed may be creating more money all the time, but the actual amount of money that is actively chasing assets seems to be way down. Banks are hoarding and deleveraging. People can’t borrow to spend. People can’t work to spend. Prices seem to be dropping on everything (prices dropping may not be deflation, but it’s a symptom of it.)
Someone made the comment that inflation has already happened. But instead of inflating wages so people can afford to live, the wage gap was filled in with MEW, credit cards, and outsourcing for cheap labor. Problem is, wages are yours to keep. Outsourcing is 0 wages. And credit you have to pay back.
Gresham’s Law, updated.
Bad Computer Bits devalue Good Computer Bits.
TIPS?
City, State, and Federal Authorities must be at the point of shaking in their boots! During the 1930s, tax receipts declined 41% (between 1929 and 1932). In the 1930s, the level of government spending for social programs, in the form of fixed entitlements, was much much smaller than today. If it is not apparent to the readers on this Blog, it soon will be; Government, at all levels, will be forced to cut (actually cut, not just cut the rate of growth) substantially, across the board, to survive. And, perhaps most of us who read and post here doubt Government’s ability to do just what it will need to do; eliminate programs, cut positions, and reduce expenditures.
To me, the real story behind the various world government’s attempts to “reinflate” the economy is the obvious fear of having to do what they have never had to do in their prospective lifetimes; cut, cut, cut!
Also, Debt De-leveraging is so substantial, all the FED Liquidity in the world may not be enough to turn the tide. Kind of like using an electric fan to thwart a hurricane!
Even Lord Keynes knew that deficits were bad in the Long Run!
“Even Lord Keynes knew that deficits were bad in the Long Run!”
You mean Cheney was deceiving(LYING) when he stated “deficits don’t matter”?
Well, to be true, deficits don’t really matter to him. Halliburton moved offshore you know.
Keynes seems to be badly misunderstood. Run surplusses during the good times and deficits in the bad. Make sure it nets out to zero so debt doesn’t linger. Not hard for most folks, but politicians…..
“City, State, and Federal Authorities must be at the point of shaking in their boots!”
Here in New York, it is the authorities who have their jobs, pensions and health care guaranteed. And they don’t use public services unless they are special public services just for them. They don’t care. They don’t have to.
They aren’t shaking in their boots. They are laughing under their breaths.
We will see how well they are taken care of when their bonds default, and they are forced to layoff thousands.’
But even worse, when they start shorting all of the retirement checks to former police officers/firemen and other government retirees we will see how much laughing takes place! There will riots and demonstrations, burning and looting will follow, and then martial law.
After all, a guarantee is only as good as the guarantor! This is shaping up to be a classic eviscoration of wealth, at all levels.
Everyone will be affected, but some will fall further than others.
Martial law. Giggle. You forget who the next prez is. We’ll be lucky to have the Boy Scouts left.
In light of all the bad news, is today the day Obama learns that not even he, with all of his mystical powers, can save the stock market just by holding a news conference?
They intend to mark the tape up into the month’s close. They did the same last month. Attempts were made in September. If this trend continues (3 wks down - one wk up), SPX could set new lows next month.
Hope so, my FXP position is not looking so pretty today. Grin and bear it and be patient….
I got into EEV at the close yesterday, and today has been a painful day.
CNBC talking heads are taking about how “extraordinary” the valuations are out there. Where were they last week when they could have gotten the same stocks 10%+ cheaper?
SKF under 57
sorry, I meant FXP.
mrs clue got in an accident last night and Im still not all together.
hope everything is ok.
I hope Mrs. Clue is okay.
SKF nearly kissed 157, so you were only a typo away.
she is fine. Her truck….not so much.
ten year bond 0.0299
I just get giddy when the liquidity trap snaps shut. 2% is not far off.
Where you in the truck also old commie pal? The only liquidity is in the Treasuries and currencies and not even all treasuries.
Is it possible for Mrs. Watanabe to be correct again, Long JGBs, Long PRDC and thusly long 30Yr US Treasuries to improve the yield? Maybe for 5 months, but stability is the death of flight to safety.
The US Treasury market is the most dysfunctional market in the US today.
Tuesday, November 25, 2008
The US treasury market reaches breaking point
by Helen Avery
http://www.euromoney.com/Article/2054070/Category/1/ChannelPage/0/The-US-treasury-market-reaches-breaking-point.html
If I did not have long standing relationships, I would not be able to short US Treasuries.
no Mr Clue was not in the car, but the blue healer….name a, Hurdles, but we all call him Herdy… was very shaken up.
The breaking point. The point at which all stops are pulled out in order to pull the wool over the eyes of the great Oz. The guys runnin this know something very dark and sinister is lurking. They will not speak of it, but they are in the process of shutting tight the lid.
The healer, herds the sheep into the pen, thus the rally in the tens.
The wolf, prowling the pens desires the red, thus liquidity ended then.
Hope all is OK!! China lowered the interest rate by 1+% today. I am hoping this “stimulus” will get absorbed just like the spending spree they announced a few weeks ago and then FXP will rise again….
took a tiny nibble @ ~53..why the heck not?!
I think you will really appreciate that call in January, maybe sooner. At least my C paid off, I sold 1/2 and pocketed enough to pay for our Thanksgiving week at the camp. That was touch and go this last week. FXP hasn’t been so pretty for me in at 74….
We’ll see I guess. One thing is for certain, this afternoon’s runup could be seen a mile away. S&P up almost 19% in just a week? C’mon - that’s another gift.
Feds warn of terror plotting against NYC subways
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081126/terror_warning.html
Nothing like trying to scare people before the holiday’s.
As a young lady during the volker 80’s I totally remember the desperation everybody felt when the good old boy raised those rates to 14%. It gave me insomnia and I had to get room mates for my west hollywood condo. Yuck.
But wil he raise rates?
He has already said that this time it’s different.
Our 1st home in 1983 was bought with a 17.5% ARM. Volcker was at the helm as the FRB Chairman. Eventually, our payment came down by $100’s. Hard years, but those lessons stuck for those of us who lived through the tough times. Volcker doesn’t babysit, he parents.
Paul Volker is the first good pick Obama made. Too bad everyone else he chose is a Clinton croney.
“Volker doesn’t babysit, he parents.”
Love it, I love this phrase. (And I’m stealing it.)
Perhaps this is off topic but you know what irritates me? The enormous saleries the Pro athletes are demanding. My tax dollars are going to that stupid Citibank which is paying 400 million to advertise at that stadium where the Mets play. I haven’t paid for a professional sports team ticket in 15 years, this has been my own personal protest. I wish more people felt ripped off, but I guess people accept the price.
Fecaltime!
The Pittsburgh Pirates just signed two Indian javelin competitors who had never touched a baseball until earlier this year as pitching prospects.
‘The Pittsburgh Pirates just signed two Indian javelin competitors’
Good Catch…
Dude, that’s what minor leagues are for. We have an excellent minor league Hockey team in Loveland, and tix only cost $15. We have people come from Denver to their games, which is not surprising, considering how incredibly expensive NHL tix are. The league (CHL) has added a team in Denver, which I understand the Avalanche were not too happy about.
The local MLS Soccer team has tix as low as $15 as well. I have never been to a Broncos game and don’t expect to ever. And I only go to the Rockies when they have tix on sale at the grocery store ($10 can get a pretty decent seat).
New rules allow seniors to borrow more and even buy a new home.
in a major policy change, retirees will be able to use a reverse mortgage to buy a new home starting in 2009. “This provision could really transform the industry,” says Peter Bell, president of the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association, in Washington, D.C.
http://finance.yahoo.com/focus-retirement/article/106215/Reverse-Mortgages-Get-Better?mod=retirement-post-spending
Why would the banks want a larger inventory of homes? That is exactly what will happen when these seniors die.
but that’s tomorrows problem, and today they can cash a nice commission on the deal
The local Taj Mahal auto mall just had its first casualty:
http://www.reporterherald.com/news_story.asp?ID=20050
IIRC, that leaves the BMW, Chevy/Subaru and Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers as the remaining tenants (the local Ford dealer wisely passed on moving). I believe that McWhinney Enterprises had envisioned up to 15 tenants in his auto park. Good luck with that.
GM’s up almost 40% this morning… hmmm must be a rumor circulating.
Deutsche Bank sez The Big 3 bailout is in the bag.
Of course it is - all they had to do is fire Tiger Woods, oragnize a carpool, and allow the politicians to rack up some sound bytes over their use of private jets.
You’re likely correct.
Beat up the Big Three, they come back with only symbolic improvements, then they get their $25B for this year (and then $50B each year thereafter).
Nice way to run a country.
Apparently the reverse mortgage note carries the clause that if home prices go down the gov.
or insurer can cut the benefits of the reverse mortgage . I don’t know what the max loan to value is at this point on those loans ,does anyone know ?
Lower (Mortgage) rates also won’t help the roughly 11.8 million borrowers who are unable to refinance because they owe more than their home is worth, said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com.
Yahoo
I am horrible with math, but given the write-downs that will be needed to refinance 11.8 million loans and growing, can this be done without a collapse of the banking system?
also, does anyone have a rough estimate on the average writedown $ amount that could be used to x by 11.8 million to get an idea of where we are in this insanity?
It has already collapsed. Hence, the Fed’s new OHMY!THESHITHITTHEFAN! lending facility.
Lol, great name for it, Maven.
By my estimation, approximately $6T of loan value will simply NOT be paid back…yet the loaners will be expecting that money.
So far we have spent about $1T and the FED lent another $7T, using near-worthless paper as collateral. Of the $7T, roughly $5T will not be paid back by the banks, since the borrowers have no interest (or capability) in paying back.
What happens next is one of the following scenarios:
1) The FED goes to Congress and demands that $5T - piling it on to our debt, along with the extra $1T that Obama is about to spend to pay back his supporters…I mean stimulate the economy.
2) The FED simply prints the $5T.
3) Some combination of the above.
The first case gets us a credit downgrade, making it impossible to service the debt. That leads to printing money and essentially a doubling of the cost of most items (relative to pay) for Americans. In effect, the dollar is cut in half (or more), so the debt becomes relatively smaller.
The second case bypasses the downgrade and simply doubles or triples real prices for Americans.
The results are the same in either case. If you’re locked into a 30 yr. loan on a reasonably priced house, you’re effective debt drops way down. Other than that, just about everything goes up. Cash savings and retirement accounts are hit even harder than now.
The CEO of Citigroup was on “Charlie Rose” last night…..basically ran out the “no one could have seen this coming” line. Then said that he and his fellow financial pigmen were the people best equipped to fix the problems.
My nominee for “Tool of the Year”.
I think the banksters that are explaining the financial crisis to the Dutch parliament today have read from that script. It was all a surprise, of course no one is to blame for the problems and obviously they are the best people to fix the problem. Case closed, the credit crisis is almost over anyway, according to our politicians and media
Banks that don’t lend to the non-financial enterprise sector and to households are completely and utterly useless, like tits on a bull.
Willem Buiter via Yves
Oh crap.
Trouble in the wonderful country of India.
news from my neck of the woods (NW exurbs) for the Chicago HBBers:
Legal Armies at War over Tuscany Funds
Crown asks Hampshire for bond help ‘Breathing room’ for slump in home sales
Algonquin Officials address stalled subdivisions
Dear Gogh, would it be possible to post comments that a reader can understand?
(CNN) — Several people have been killed in a series of coordinated attacks targeting sites popular with tourists and business people, according to police and CNN’s sister network in India.
Ongoing battles between police and gunmen were reported at two five-star hotels by CNN-IBN.
Gunmen armed with automatic weapons and grenades attacked targets including the hotels, a cafe, and a train station, police say.
Police confirmed two deaths but IBN said at least 18 people were killed in the coordinated strikes, according to IBN.
The attacks included five shootouts and two grenade attacks, said a police officer who answered Mumbai’s police control room line.
IBN reported an ongoing battle at the five-star Oberoi Hotel where gunmen have reportedly taken hostages after searching out people with U.S. or British passports.
At a second top hotel, the Taj, IBN reported more gunfire and chaos as a grenade exploded.
The attacks began about 2230 local time (1700 GMT) and more than two hours later witnesses were reporting new explosions and gunfire.
The targets include businesses frequented by international visitors.
It seems that the atack was geared towards US and British passport holders. I wonder what this will do to outosurcing operations, and Co’s sending executives over there… Little things change perceptions…
Sagesse;
I am the resident “flower child” so I don’t have to make sense. But i will try harder to conform.
Buying Time
Meet your new mortgage banker: Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke.
“…Yesterday’s Fed moves seek to reverse those frightening trends, essentially by having the central bank take the place (temporarily, one assumes) of the now-vanished secondary market for loans. To some economists, this looks like the policy known as “quantitative easing,” last engaged in by the Bank of Japan during that country’s deflationary spiral of the 1990s. Basically, quantitative easing consists of taking interest rates to near zero and then flooding the markets with liquidity via asset purchases — until the private financial system recovers to the point where it can take on the job itself. In Japan, that took about five years.
In the short run, the Fed’s actions may well reduce 30-year mortgage rates, which should help the housing market. The long-term risk is that investors come to think of quantitative easing in more old-fashioned terms — as printing money. Then we’ll get inflation. At the moment, however, the dollar is enjoying unexpected strength because, for all its woes, the U.S. economy is not quite as badly off as many others. And the Fed is worried about deflation, not inflation. Apparently, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke feels that he can spend some of the United States’ strong-dollar windfall on propping up the erstwhile pillars of our economy: residential real estate and consumer spending. The Fed’s strategy might buy time for financial institutions, the Treasury Department and other government agencies to recapitalize the banking sector and purge its bad assets. They are already working on that, and they need to work even harder. ”
WaPo Editorial
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/25/AR2008112502078.html
There is also an interesting article in The New Yorker on Chairman Ben Bernanke:
A Reporter at Large
Anatomy of a Meltdown
Ben Bernanke and the financial crisis.
by John Cassidy
My neighbor who spent his youth in Tokyo during the go-go years working in finance has endless stories of how we’re basically doing the same thing as Japan.
Ain’t gonna work for the same reason too.
Japan was using chump change compared to us. Japan spent 10% of GDP per year for 10 years. The US has spent/guaranteed 50% of this years GDP in 4 months. And as long as mopes keep buying US Treasuries there is nothing to stop government spending.
“Milton Friedman is widely known for two phrases, one which is half right, and one which is exact. The half-right dictum is that “inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.” It’s half right because a government spending expansion, regardless of the form, will tend to raise the marginal utility of goods and services while lowering the marginal utility of government liabilities. It’s very true that the major hyperinflations in history have been triggered by currency expansion, but as long as a government appropriates goods and services to itself in return for pieces of paper that compete as stores of value and means of exchange in the portfolios of investors, you’ll get inflation.”
Mr. John Hussman
We shall see.
Let me know when you start buying land and gold on margin.
I am doing some positive cash flowing REITs, but I can find more profitable things to do than buy gold. Gold is just not on my favorite list. Gold has done better during periods of deflation than during periods of inflation.
You look at an amoeba through a microscope and scream monster ignoring the reports of Godzilla because you don’t see her.
You and me.
I’ll just wait it out for PCF.
Tried to post this under Holiday thread to no avail. I seldom wax sentimental, but I really do mean this, so I’ll try here in the Bucket.
Dear Ben, Dear HBB denizens all.
Dougie, the evil wild turkey gobbler is now slow smoking over apple wood, the black walnuts have been shelled, mushrooms gathered and pie crust chilling along with a couple of nice fume blancs. The veggies are blanched, the greens are crisping, and the raspberry jam I put up early this summer is simmering with the currant jelly and a healthy glug or two of pinor noir. Since there was half a bottle left I thought, oh what the hey, why not?
So here I sit getting sloshed as the market sucker-rallies to a close and my house fills up with holiday smells. My chest feels like it’s about to pop, you guys. I cannot tell you how much all your support and encouragement has meant to me as I attempt to piece my physical self back into what was the pre-Ursadent ahansen. The temptation to succumb to despair (or at least erect a shield of cynicism as a rampart,) has on occasion been more than pressing. But always, someone on this blog has come up with something so off-the-wall, so hysterically apropos, or so screamingly asinine, that my will to live and add my two cents to the dialectic has overcome any reluctance to pry open my eyes and await the horrors of the new day.
So, Thank You. Thank You one and all with all my heart. In its whacky, sniping, brilliantly maddening way, The HBB has taught me the true meaning of community, and I am so much the richer for it…both literally and figuratively.
Sniff.
I think I need another glass of pinot.
Here’s to you ALL!
Happy Thanksgiving, with love.
raspberry jam I put up early this summer is simmering with the currant jelly and a healthy glug or two of pinor noir
Ok, I don’t know what you do with this concoction…but I want some. That sounds fantastic.
I think the rest of the pinot noir went down the ol’ hatch.
Surely you approve of that part, right?
Whatever makes you think I wouldn’t approve?
But mostly I’m interested in this jelly/jam and wine thing….what does one do with it?
Blue, if you’re still up:
After I reduce it, I blend it with the deglazed pan drippings and use it in lieu of cranberry sauce on the turkey and the stuffing.
It also goes nicely atop homemade vanilla bean ice cream…without the fond from the meat, of course.
wait…so it’s not literally simmering? Like she just ate some jelly and drank the wine?
I liked it better when it was all cooking together.
Anyway Allena, glad to see you around. Occasionally I relate your story to someone, amazing as it is.
Dearest Alena,
Happy Thanksgiving and what a beautiful post!
barb luv song at yahoo dot com.
Praying you see this post.
Best Always,
Leigh
Hello alena;
Love annie
Wow. I want to eat Thanksgiving at your house!
Happy Turkey Day!
Today at 11:30 I went to Costco in Torrance. Took me 30 minutes to get a parking spot. The joy of shopping! Bought a 22 inch HDTV. $300 plus confiscatory tax.
Doesn’t look like a depression at Costco. It was a day off from work at my client’s site. Maybe a lot of people took time off from work. They did not look like unemployed people. It was a mob though.
Ah, so that’s where all the people who should have been at the airports went to today!
The few stores I have been in the last week or so were crowded. But the only place where there was buying going on was the grocery store.
“During fiscal 2008, the Compensation Committee determined that maintaining a lease on a private airplane was no longer a cost-effective method for providing business-related transportation to our Named Executive Officers and Directors. The airplane was used only for business-related travel, and personal use was not permitted. With the termination of the lease on the airplane, it also became increasingly difficult and cost prohibitive to access our Canadian fish camp. Consequently, the fish camp, which was only used for business entertainment purposes, was offered for sale during 2008. The only offer to purchase the fish camp came from Terry L. Haines, our former Chief Executive Officer and President. Ultimately we negotiated with Mr. Haines to sell the fish camp for a purchase price of $55,000 and the transaction closed during fiscal year 2009.”
http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/87565/000095015208009644/l32892bdef14a.htm
This proxy was sent to me and I am sure it is all over the net by now! (above quote on pg 27 - not pdf.) Some things you do not disclose. Fishing cabins are not to be disclosed. It should have been described as inaccessible property up in Canada. lmao If this was a bank they would not have had to disclose it.
(I posted this once already but it didnt show, perhaps b/c of some foulish language)
FPSS,
I think I have developed a sensible answer to your question of “why 1983?”. Short answer is b/c thats about when the fed started manipulating interest/credit instead of just focusing on M1. Before that, their monetary policy didn’t really influence credit and therefore couldnt have effected credit cycles.
Longer consideration is at www dot marcusdiaz dot com/blog
Any feedback on either the content or the writing of that post is appreciated from anyone.
blueprint;
I was a guinea pig during that time.
I was on the treadmill of owning, REO’s, and renting in the ghetto,,, white trash and gangtrash. Yick.
Pretty much. Very close.
Toss in one additional fact that a steeply inverted curve is the functional equivalent of a gold standard and you’re home free.
Corollary is that interest rates can be lowered from 18% to 1% once, and now they’re trying “quantitative easing” but none of this can influence the demand side of the curve like before. We’ve hit peak credit, and we’re headed back to 1983 prices (adjusted for wage inflation.)
I read in Newsweek this week (hardcopy, sorry no link) that had a cover story about a significant number of mortgage fraudsters are making their reappearance as FHA loan brokers. Apparently the FHA doesn’t have the staff to do a proper vetting of brokerage licenses, and now many of the defunct (as in - remember the Mortgage Broker Implode-O-Meter?) mortgage brokers are popping back up again — same people, reincorporated as different entities.
So, this begs the question: is an economic recovery even possible without allowing a significant amount of fraud back into the system? I mean, if your base level of economic activity included a significant portion of fraud, and you take that away, then you’ve got a pretty drastic reduction in GDP right?
Another example: All the CDS and MBS activity peddled by Wall Street pigmen that was baked into the historical models. A very large percentage of this business I would imagine is going to go away (forever, hopefully). So, how do you fill this hole in the GDP? And I would imagine this is a VERY BIG hole to fill!
Yes, the people who perpetrated these frauds were contributing nothing of real substance to the economy. CDS and MBS’s were essentially one of America’s greatest (if fraudulent) exports. So, now that that business is going away, how do you replace it?
Isn’t it essentially somewhat akin to many of the fraudulent do-nothing government departments we have? Take the SEC for example. It consumes resources, and generates many useless reports. And its employees go out and spend their salaries and spur on economic activity. So, the intake and outflow of the SEC comprises and supports a significant portion of American GDP. But, I would assert (as would many others) that the SEC is essentially a fraudulent organization, since it writes toothless regulations and it does not enforce those regulations which have teeth. It is, again, basically a fraudulent organization. BUT, if we were to abolish it, it would create a hole in the GDP, and how would we fill that hole?
I guess the question I’m asking is: do the operation of fraudulent organizations like the SEC or Wall Street mortgage securitization departments basically act like transfer payments from taxpayers (or foreign sovereigns who purchase treasuries) to people whose only legitimate role in society is to consume resources, hence supporting GDP? Or, said another way: Is Fraud A Necessary Component of Economic Activity?
Interesting question . I believe that the reason why the fraudulent brokers can exist will be that the Government will insure the underwriting or the loans .
“Is Fraud A Necessary Component of Economic Activity? ”
IMHO ,fraud produces waste in economic activity in that someone is trying to get more than they have really produced . Any form of fraud
is a perceived attempt to game the system and steal rather than
produce for a fair price .
To much fraud or crime in any system will produce a situation no different than a stacked deck in which the producers work in part to
pay the non producers or the schemers or thieves . A system that is void of injustices would be a more productive system in which people would have to produce .
Now a thief or con man might say that its hard work stiffing their marks ,but not very many people would agree that the con mans hard work would serve a better social good with honest work ,and
would serve a better purpose in productive activity . The main objective of financial crimes against society is usually greed or getting more than your willing to work for free or gaining faster than honest work would take .
If people all came into the World on a level playing field ,than life would be fair ,but because this is not the case, the human mind
will some times contrive a way of leveling out the playing field .The thief will rationalize his stealing by saying that the people he steals
from can afford it because they have to much .
Leveraging money and gambling is a form of greed to make more riches than would normally be possible . To expect that another party, such as taxpayers ,would pay for that greed is no different than a thug or thief would rationalize . During the Great Depression rich people would jump to their death ,now there are people holding signs up in New York saying “JUMP SUCKERS”.