December 6, 2008

The Brakes Are Not Working In California

The LA Times reports from California. “A record 10% of the nation’s mortgage-burdened homeowners fell behind on their loan payments or were in foreclosure during the third quarter, according to a survey released Friday by the Mortgage Bankers Assn., which said California and Florida were the biggest contributors to the worsening picture. California represents 13% of the loans in the country, said Jay Brinkmann, chief economist for the Association, but is recording 19% of all new foreclosures. ‘California has lost more than 100,000 jobs over the past year, compared to Michigan, the usual poster child for unemployment, which only lost 70,000,’ Brinkmann said.”

“At first glance, California’s troubles seem little different from those anywhere else, because just under 7% of borrowers in both California and the nation are behind on payments. But Brinkmann said a clearer picture emerges when you compare the number of newly delinquent loans in one quarter with the number of loans entering the foreclosure process the following quarter.”

“That foreclosure ‘roll rate’ was about 10% to 12% nationally in the 1990s and ran from 12% to 15% for most of this decade, Brinkmann said. The percentage is now 30% nationally but has reached 79% in California and 65% in Florida, he said.”

“‘This is nothing like anything we’ve ever seen before,’ Brinkmann said. ‘We were shocked when we saw the California roll rates.’”

The Sacramento Bee. “Evidence that the recession is feeding on itself grew Friday as the U.S. Labor Department reported the worst monthly job losses in a generation, and economists warned of a resulting wave of foreclosures from homeowners now out of work. The government said November unemployment reached its highest level in 15 years as 533,000 people lost jobs in a deepening recession. The biggest number of monthly layoffs in 34 years.”

“‘I see a growing delinquency problem among prime mortgages, among mortgages driven by these job loss factors,’ said Jay Brinkmann, chief economist for the Mortgage Bankers Association.”

“Brinkmann said Friday that ‘absent a recession’ it would have been easy to predict a leveling off of U.S. foreclosure activity next year. ‘We can pretty much throw that out the window now,’ he said in a conference call with reporters.”

“While job losses started with lower-skilled employees who don’t own homes, Brinkmann said layoffs are moving up the food chain. Jobless rates for people with technical backgrounds climbed from 3.3 percent to 5.5 percent the past year. For the college-educated, unemployment rose from 2.2 percent to 3.1 percent, he said. ‘Those are the groups most likely to be homeowners,’ Brinkmann said.”

“That phenomenon was on display Thursday in Sacramento when 2,050 struggling borrowers – four times more than expected – showed up for a foreclosure prevention workshop. Many attending said they were in trouble because they or members of their households had lost jobs or owned small businesses where revenue has fallen. Roxene Rice of Meadow Vista said her family’s loan troubles started ‘when disaster struck and my husband lost his job for nine months.’”

“Economist Sung Won Sohn of California State University, Channel Islands, said the layoffs will get worse. ‘The economy is headed downhill and the brakes are not working,’ he states in a report.”

The Gilroy Dispatch. “For 1,430 property owners in Gilroy, there is an upside to the downturn in the real estate market: the average of $2,000 they’ll save in taxes this year. But their gain is the city, county and school district’s loss, as the reduction in taxes means $3 million less in public coffers.”

“When the county reassessed the value of the Gilroy properties, the homes, as in the rest of the county, were reduced an average of $70,000 to $80,000 each. Commercial and industrial property values fell by more than twice that amount.”

“County Assessor Larry Stone said about 45,000 properties were assessed at a value lower than the purchase price and he doesn’t expect the trend to reverse itself anytime soon. Plummeting assessment values in Santa Clara County show that even the burgeoning Silicon Valley is not immune to the sub-prime mortgage mess and consequent economic meltdown.”

“‘The emergency is for people who bought at the top of the market,’ Stone said. ‘This is the most pervasive economic crisis that I have ever seen in my entire career. It’s going to last longer than most people hope. This is a global issue. It’s a crisis of proportions I haven’t seen in 38 years.’”

The Daily Bulletin. “Details remain scarce surrounding San Bernardino County’s latest program to stem the sweeping flood of foreclosures. The Board of Supervisors voted Monday to enter into a contract with the Inland Empire Economic Recovery Corp., which would use a public-private partnership to address the foreclosure problem.”

“The supervisors could approve committing $2.5 million to the corporation in the next two weeks, according to a county report. With the median home value in San Bernardino County having plummeted to about $200,000, that money would only be enough to purchase about 10 homes.”

“More than 42,000 houses in the county are in various stages of foreclosure.”

The Orange County Business Journal. “Irvine-based O’Donnell/Atkins, California’s largest and best known land brokerage for much of the past decade, is winding down most operations amid the ongoing real estate downturn. The company, which brokered more than $1 billion in yearly land sales at the peak of the housing market, is in the midst of ’significant downsizing’ and isn’t going after new business, according to CEO Mackey ‘Mac’ O’Donnell.”

“Other brokerages are expected to see more drops in business as fewer deals are getting done and those that are getting done are complicated by loan issues. ‘There’s constipation in the marketplace,’ said Paul Grover, managing partner of Irvine-based consulting firm Strategic Land Advisors.”

“There still are qualified buyers for land, according to Grover. But sellers—including lenders and Wall Street investment banks—often aren’t ready or able to get deals done, he said. Adding to the complexity, ‘the people in control of land today are not the same people who were in control’ a few years ago, said Grover, who left O’Donnell/Atkins after 12 years to start Strategic Land Advisors about a year ago.”

“2008 ‘was a year of homebuilders selling off inventory,’ said Norm Scheel, principal for Irvine-based land brokerage Hoffman Co. ‘For 2009, you will see banks selling off inventory.’”

“‘For almost any deal that closes these days, the lender is involved, whether it’s a short sale or (a foreclosed property),’ said Tom Reimers, president of Irvine’s Park Place Partners Inc.”

The Marin Independent Journal. “Mortgage finance giant Freddie Mac reported Thursday that average rates on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages dropped to 5.53 percent this week. That was down from 5.97 percent last week, and the lowest since hitting 5.48 percent the week of Jan. 24. Further drops could be on the way if the government launches an industry-backed plan to lower the rate on a 30-year mortgage to 4.5 percent by spending hundreds of billions of dollars to buy mortgage-backed securities issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.”

“That would follow an effort announced last week by the Federal Reserve, which is planning to purchase up to $600 billion of mortgage-backed securities and other debt issued by Fannie and Freddie and the Federal Home Loan Banks. Those institutions don’t make loans directly to consumers, but provide money to the mortgage market by packaging loans into investments.”

“Sean Maley, senior loan consultant with Guarantee Mortgage in Larkspur, said…he was worried the rush to reconfigure loans could be stymied by a stiffer set of loan requirements these days. ‘Stated income loans (without full documentation) are a thing of the past,’ Maley said. ‘Banks want 20 percent down, and credit scores above 700 are pretty typical now.’”

“Paul Hickman, president of California Land Title of Marin, reported an unexpected uptick in sales activity during the normally dormant holiday season, said other title companies across Northern California have noted a similar influx in refinance applications and sales. ‘Now there’s two things standing between us and getting paid,’ Hickman said. ‘Will the properties appraise and will the lenders make the loans. They’ve been hard to get in the past year.’”

“Bill Hoopes, who owns the Novato branch of Pacific Guarantee Mortgage, attributed slow movement on the refinancing front to timing. Hoopes, whose most recent activity has been investors and first-time buyers snapping up deeply discounted foreclosure properties, saw advantages to the current climate. ‘Now with the rates ramping down, that’s going to hopefully stimulate more people coming into the market to get the best of both worlds - low interest rates and pre-2003 prices on a lot of these properties,’ he said.”

“A Dominican University economics professor delivered a sobering message Friday: Don’t expect the nation’s economy to begin recovering until the second half of 2010. The prediction by economics professor Admassu Bezabeh was among a host of issues discussed in a forum at the university on the financial crisis.”

“Luis Calingo, dean of Dominican’s School of Business, said the recession will inflict the most pain on workers who lose their jobs and own homes. ‘Because of the housing crisis, laid-off workers will find it difficult to sell their homes and then move to another place for jobs,’ Calingo said.”

“Joseph Destein, a local private investor who has worked with several multinational corporations, participated in a similar forum that Dominican hosted in October soon after Congress allocated $700 billion to buy bad real estate loans from banks. He said the government has given up on that plan. ‘The banks are still sitting on all of that stuff, and they still have indigestion, and they’re still not able to lend,’ Destein said.”

“The problem of unwinding all of those loans, many of which were sliced and diced and resold as securities, sometimes more than once, just turned out to be too complex, he said. ‘It’s an overwhelming job. I don’t think they could find anybody who could do what they wanted to do,’ Destein said.”

“Instead, Destein said the government is using the money to recapitalize the banks it thinks have the best chance of survival and encouraging them to buy up the weaker banks. Even so, it is going to take time for the banks to write off losses from their bad loans, he said. ‘Quite frankly, we’re not at the end of that,’ Destein said. ‘We’re going to see a lot more bad loans.’”

“Several audience members expressed hope that the economic crisis will cause America to reevaluate its values. ‘There has been a ridiculous consumerism,’ said LeeAnn Bartolini of Mill Valley. ‘This crisis of confidence could be a wake-up call for people to be much more conservative and weigh what they need versus what they want.’”




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96 Comments »

Comment by Olympiagal
2008-12-06 11:37:49

‘There has been a ridiculous consumerism,’ said LeeAnn Bartolini of Mill Valley. ‘This crisis of confidence could be a wake-up call for people to be much more conservative and weigh what they need versus what they want.’”

Okay, which one of you is LeeAnn? Confess!

Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 11:45:43

She’s probably an insurgent, a Marinfidel.

Comment by Houstonstan
2008-12-06 12:26:13

Nah, you are thinking of the Talibanaheim.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2008-12-06 12:55:22

“…Marinfidel” :-)

I like that one laddie… ;-)

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 13:23:46

Awesome one.

I’m going to steal that. :-D

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Comment by DR Fartlestain
2008-12-06 15:49:57

What In the HELL is the “Inland Economic Recovery Group?”

OH, yes! A boiler-plate operation out of a strip mall in Naples, Florida!

Well, smite me on the forhead! I should have known that.

2.5M?

BAHAAHAAHAA!

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Comment by DennisN
2008-12-06 12:30:27

The only Marin denizen I know around here is HARM….

Comment by ozajh
2008-12-06 21:49:21

If any of HARM’s Marin HomeLoaner neighbours knew about his views on the housing bubble, they would DEFINITELY consider him to be an infidel . . . :D

Comment by albakes
2008-12-06 23:02:32

there’s also Marinite who used to post a bit… and me!

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Comment by Walnuts
2008-12-07 00:12:21

I’m holding it down in Marin.

 
 
Comment by HARM
2008-12-07 05:41:44

;-) Thanks for the props, but actually I’m an East Bay renter (Contra Costa). I can’t even afford to *rent* in Marin!

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Comment by Athena
2008-12-07 10:48:36

Give it another year Harm and yes, you may be able to afford it. ;-)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-12-06 12:15:30

“Even so it’s going to take time for banks to write off losses from their bad loans, he said.”

Yep, time will heal all wounds. Meanwhile the FBs need to be encouraged to keep up with their payments; The System needs their money.

Praise for the NAR and their media hype (paid for with their own money) for keeping hope alive among the ranks of FBs.

Comment by Giacomo
2008-12-06 12:43:37

Yeah, it’s all about preventing panic now.

The assumption that college-educated prime lenders are going to keep paying off a $500K loan on a house that’s worth $400K (and falling) is naive. At some point lots of those people just opt to sacrifice principle in order to get out from under.

Also coming: reduced spending by mortgage-free California homeowners who finally realize their house’s value didn’t really triple in the last 8 years.

Comment by James
2008-12-06 18:46:27

A good number of those credit lines have already been clipped. Calculated risk pretty much showed how much MEW, mortgage equity withdrawal, had dropped vs GDP. I think it was down under 2% which is an order of magnitude drop from the past.

Comment by Giacomo
2008-12-06 21:45:37

Good point, although I was just thinking of the disappearance of the “wealth effect”. The stock market losses should effect consumption levels as well.

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Comment by KR
2008-12-06 12:30:18

I just came from an open house. The Agent was full of glee and was telling all the potential buyers how low the rates were and how she expects that the prices are getting ready to start going up again. I asked her why she was so confident that the markets were going to turn on a dime? She said the government wasn’t going to let them fall anymore. Also, she said the lower rates will push prices up as they have always done in the past. I told her that until we work out the affordibility issues I didn’t see it coming. She said that they are more affordible then ever before. I asked her where she came up with that info. She said at her branch meeting the branch manager signaled that affordibility was at historical mean. I said with rates heading lower, if sellers would lower prices she might be correct. She said, this is the best time in history to buy. Some folks you just can’t reach…

Comment by Ernest
2008-12-06 12:40:28

“”She said the government wasn’t going to let them fall anymore.”"

They’d never let that happen! Would they?

The idea of American independence and self reliance is a long time gone.

It’s been a long time gone…

It’s been a long time comin’
It’s goin’ to be a Long Time Gone.
And it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.

Turn, turn any corner.
Hear, you must hear what the people say.
You know there’s something that’s goin’ on around here,
the surely, surely, surely won’t stand the light of day.
And it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.

Speak out, you got to speak out against the madness,
you got to speak your mind,
if you dare.
But don’t no don’t now try to get yourself elected
If you do you had better cut your hair.
`Cause it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
Time, such a long long long long time before the dawn.

It’s been a long time comin’
It’s goin’ to be a long time gone.
But you know,
The darkest hour is always
Always just before the dawn.
And it appears to be a long, appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
Time before the dawn.

Comment by yogurt
2008-12-07 05:56:54

But aren’t real estate agents exactly the type of people who don’t believe in government “handouts”?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2008-12-06 12:40:35

“Some folks you just can’t reach”…

That’s because they are truly ’stuck on stupid’. A local idiot realtwhore is running a radio ad saying prices are likely to explode once the 4.5% interest rate happens. They should be sued for false advertising, they say the same crap over and over again. Of course only a fool would pay any attention to them.

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 17:56:08

it’s all about affordability. Lower the prices and they shall sell.

 
 
Comment by kato22
2008-12-06 13:04:29

But she is RE Agent and has to feed her family, and of course, she would say that this is the most affordable time ever. Never ask a RE Agent for an opinion on realestate

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 13:09:52

no one asked - she was all mouth

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-12-06 13:15:04

Asking a real estate agent if it’s a good time to buy is like asking a prostitute if it’s a good time to f__ .

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 13:17:57

but I thought it was always a good time to f…!

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Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-12-06 13:29:19

ho..

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-12-06 13:32:40

That was always my opinion as well!

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 14:18:05

I’m on that train too!

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-12-06 17:20:25

eh?
ho, ho, ho.

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-12-06 18:10:34

I would beg to differ. There are times when it is not good.

- After having your willy slammed in a car door

- Following an emergency vasectomy

- During the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th quarter of a good NFL game

- Immediately after downing the double burrito volcano platter

- During extreme bouts of diarrhea

- Just let me sleep, already

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-12-06 18:40:51

‘I would beg to differ. There are times when it is not good…’

Blah, blah, blah…man, you are such a wussy. And to think I prayed earnestly for you the other day. * shakes fluffy yellow Olyhead in disgust*

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-12-06 18:44:20

Oh, but NYCity, tell us about how you know the ‘willy slammed in the car door’ part.

I always like a good story. Plus, I’m now too drunk to go back out and kayak. Plus, I now notice it’s pitch-black here.
So, did your cats do it to you?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 18:56:55

Vag*na dentata for NYCityBoy. Need we say more? ;-)

 
Comment by Lesser Fool
2008-12-06 20:47:20

I think the willy-in-the-garbage-disposal scenario (also tm NYCB) qualifies as well ..

 
 
 
 
Comment by jay
2008-12-06 17:17:19

yeah, tell her what the gov’t can do to stop all the job losses..because the game is now going to be about jobs. no job=unemployment insurance=you lose your or should i say the banks home! ITS GOING TO BE ALL ABOUT JOBS NOW BABY! Tell the realty whore that!

Comment by dude
2008-12-06 21:33:36

It’s about the jobs.

And now we finally get to see the REAL correction get started.

Lookout Beloooowwww!

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 12:33:20

Let’s Roll…

That foreclosure “roll rate” was about 10% to 12% nationally in the 1990s and ran from 12% to 15% for most of this decade, Brinkmann said. The percentage is now 30% nationally but has reached 79% in California and 65% in Florida, he said.

Comment by Ernest
2008-12-06 12:49:16

You know the repeated scenes in the Road Runner cartoons? The ones where Wile E. realizes that he is completely f***ed?

We’ve just run out of solid ground. 500 feet up and nothing is below us but a long way down…

 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-12-06 13:33:51

What is the “roll rate”? Sorry if that’s an easy question, I’m just not familiar with that term.

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-12-06 18:19:44

Roll Rate=REIC drivel stat

I prefer the Rock & Roll Rate myself. :)

 
Comment by James
2008-12-06 18:52:22

Some mortgages will recover after going into delinquency and will avoid foreclosure through a sale or catch up on payment and occasional refinance. The unprecedented roll rate is higher than in the great depression. That is more houses are ending up back at the bank than ever.

I’m assuming the bailout money will be used to prop up reserves at the banks as they put these losses on to their balance sheets.

 
 
Comment by implosion
2008-12-06 14:53:39

“‘This is nothing like anything we’ve ever seen before,’ Brinkmann said. ‘We were shocked when we saw the California roll rates.’”

Cue that now legendary south Fl realtor quote about a whole new economic model.

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2008-12-06 12:36:02

“Economist Sung Won Sohn of California State University, Channel Islands, said the layoffs will get worse.”

This statement baffled me - we have a CSU out on the Channel Islands? It turns out that’s the name of the CSU campus in Camarillo. I wonder why they didn’t name it for the county in which it resides.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-12-06 17:53:11

Q: Why is “Channel Islands” in the University’s name when the campus is on the mainland?
A: The name, California State University Channel Islands, was the choice of a committee of Ventura County educators, students, community leaders, and activists. The name represents an entire region rather than a single city or county, and so the University was named after the eight islands located off the southern California coastline, which are a part of the Channel Islands National Park. On a clear day, you can see some of the islands from the University.

http://www.csuci.edu/about/faq.htm

Comment by Hazard
2008-12-06 20:18:38

Can you see Alaska?

Comment by B. Durbin
2008-12-07 19:53:25

Not for millions of years.

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Comment by Mike G
2008-12-07 13:01:21

If you’ve been to the ugly sprawling Camarillo-Oxnard area, you’d understand why CSU didn’t want to stick that name on it. Channel Islands is much more appealing, if geographically inaccurate.
BTW the CSUCI complex used to be a state mental hospital.

Comment by tarred and feathered
2008-12-07 23:25:13

CSUCI used to be Camarillo State Hospital. People believe that it was the inspiration for the Eagle’s song : Hotel California.

 
 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-12-06 13:02:59

“Luis Calingo, dean of Dominican’s School of Business, said the recession will inflict the most pain on workers who lose their jobs and own homes. …”

Brilliant, simply brilliant. How many years do these guys have to go to school to figure this stuff out?

 
Comment by frankie
2008-12-06 13:04:43

I beginning to come to the conclusion that economics is just like religion, if you haven’t got blind faith in it, it doesn’t make much sense. I think I’m becoming an economic atheist.

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-06 23:14:55

If you wish to practice science, the best religion is skepticism. This is the religion that produced the great scientific advances through the ages. Of course, if your goal is to fit in with the main stream of the profession, you had better learn to practice blind faith in the established orthodoxy.

 
 
Comment by reuven
2008-12-06 13:08:32

“mortgage-burdened homeowners”?

That’s awfully biased language to use in a newspaper! How about “borrowers who can’t pay their obligations.” That’s a fairer, more neutral way of putting it.

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 13:11:26

not politically correct enough for ya?

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-12-06 13:34:39

‘How about “borrowers who can’t pay their obligations.”’

How about ’skint boo-hooing morons’ instead?
I think that sounds prettier and more euphonious anyhow.

Comment by reuven
2008-12-06 22:10:43

That’s how I interpret it! But I don’t think they’re morons. They’re clever con-men! Conning America into paying for their speculative losses.

 
 
Comment by Michael Fink
2008-12-06 13:34:51

How about “debt zombies”? That’s nice an neutral. :)

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 13:43:46

I like Mortgage Ho’s

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 14:20:33

Ho ho ho! :-D

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Comment by Jay_Huhman
2008-12-06 17:06:53

The classic term is ‘house-poor’.

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Comment by Silverback1011
2008-12-06 19:04:53

No, I like Mortgage Ho’s too.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 19:30:32

Mortgage Ho-ho-ho™! :-D

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by 2banana
2008-12-06 13:12:08

“Luis Calingo, dean of Dominican’s School of Business, said the recession will inflict the most pain on workers who lose their jobs and own homes. ‘Because of the housing crisis, laid-off workers will find it difficult to sell their homes and then move to another place for jobs,’ Calingo said.”

Mobility is key to finding a new job. Owning a house you can not sell (or not take a loss) will keep many people pinned downed.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-06 13:53:20

“Brinkmann said Friday that ‘absent a recession’ it would have been easy to predict a leveling off of U.S. foreclosure activity next year. ‘We can pretty much throw that out the window now,’ he said in a conference call with reporters.”

It is high time to defenestrate the bottom calls and get ready for a long, slow ride into the basement.

Comment by dude
2008-12-06 22:14:37

I agree except for the slow part. I think the last car on the roller coaster train has finally disengaged the chain and we are now free wheeling.

 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-12-06 13:56:01

My HOA just lowered the boom. Thanks to unpaid commons charges by nitwits who bought places they couldn’t afford we all get to enjoy another 7% increase in our fees. I have two empty units in my section alone, the one that moved out recently was hard to miss as I thought they were way too young for the prices when they bought a year ago and had a small child. The other one tried having a moving sale but ended up leaving furniture behind in the unit that can be seen in the MLS listing.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-12-06 16:18:20

Doesn’t Mello-Roos work in the same fashion for all the lucky McMansion holders living in unincorporated areas? In theory, if you’re the last man standing, then you get to pay the entire tax bill. What a deal!!

 
Comment by reuven
2008-12-07 00:04:54

And are you going to pay it?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-06 13:56:47

“A record 10% of the nation’s mortgage-burdened homeowners fell behind on their loan payments or were in foreclosure during the third quarter, according to a survey released Friday by the Mortgage Bankers Assn., which said California and Florida were the biggest contributors to the worsening picture.”

“At first glance, California’s troubles seem little different from those anywhere else, because just under 7% of borrowers in both California and the nation are behind on payments.”

Pardon my stupidity for asking this question, but how could 10% of the nation’s ‘mortgage-burdened’ homeowners fall behind on loan payments in the third quarter, leaving only 7% of borrowers behind on payments? These figures seem incoherent.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 13:59:28

You expect coherency from journalists, you optimist, you!

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-06 23:16:59

Oh, no, I expect no such thing. I merely take endless pleasure in pointing out their blatant stupidity when it jumps off the printed page.

 
 
Comment by Eudemon
2008-12-06 14:15:43

Good question.

Incidentally, I’m tired of reading the *latest figures* of any sort as trumpeted by the media. While it’s patently obvious to anyone here, why must the media incorrectly compare numbers from 30 years ago to today’s numbers to create news?

We lost 530,000 jobs nationwide this past month….which last happened when? 1981 - is that right? Well, guess what? We had 75 million fewer people in the workforce in 1981. That makes all the hoopla over this week’s numbers moot as far as I’m concerned. Yes, unemployment is up. But to say it matches the pain of 1981 is wholly inaccurate.

Ditto the first “news” story that Ben posted above. California lost 100,000 jobs, whereas Michigan lost 70,000. If those numbers are accurate, I’d much rather be in California. California has 38 million people compared to Michigan’s 10 million. For whom is the current economic scenario worse? To match Michigan job loss rate, California would have had to lose about 265,000 jobs last month.

Comment by KR
2008-12-06 14:25:09

it’s different this time?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 15:20:45

It’s always different everywhere all the time because everyone is going to move there.

Wait! What? ;-)

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Comment by pdxHOMEDEBTOR/ocSANDRENTER
2008-12-06 15:05:46

“We had 75 million fewer people in the workforce in 1981. That makes all the hoopla over this week’s numbers moot as far as I’m concerned. Yes, unemployment is up. But to say it matches the pain of 1981 is wholly inaccurate.”

True dat. However, 1981 was about ~18 months into the interest rate hikes up to 20% in 1980.

We are about to cut rates to historical lows, and we’re only in the second or third inning of the job losses. Wait until the 7th inning stretch, bottom of the 9th, or God forbid, extra innings.

When this government’s printing of the means of exchange (worthless paper - not to be confused with “capital”) hits the street, and gas hits $10 per gallon, and no one can save for a house cuz the cost of living eats up so much of each paycheck, foreigners stop buying our worthless treasuries and the fed has no choice but to monetize all debt, and the government won’t have the option of raising interest rates this time to drain the excess liquidity…dollar finally dies. Game, set, match.

So yes, Eudemon, you are correct, the pain does not match 1981. But it will eventually make the pain of 1981 look like a day at Disneyland.

PDXhomedebtor

Comment by az_lender
2008-12-07 08:02:11

In 1980 I left a long-term job with NO new job lined up. I had a temporary new one within a week, and a permanent better-paying one within a couple of months. If I were still in the “work” force now, I would certainly not be blithely assuming that a better job would just appear (my assumption back then). I agree that 80-81 look like “a day to Disneyland” by comparison to what we face in 2009.

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Comment by KenWPA
2008-12-06 15:16:33

I think across the board most people are far worse off financially in todays world than they were in the 80’s, due to very high consumer debt levels.

I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg as far as job losses are concerned. A lot of the banks are getting ready to make major cuts as their acquisitions get started. State and local governments are gearing up for major deficits, which will require spending cuts in the billions. Those cuts will affect someone elses job somewhere in the economy.

I am not saying that things are as bad job-wise right now as they were in the 80’s, but will probably be just as bad in a few quarters. Things seem to be gathering steam in the wrong direction for the World’s workers.

 
Comment by rms
2008-12-06 18:16:11

“To match Michigan job loss rate, California would have had to lose about 265,000 jobs last month.”

Don’t forget Michigan’s $hitty weather! :)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-07 00:47:43

7 + 2.97 = 9.97 (about 10 pct). If the 7 pct of mortgage loans in arrears are added to 2.97 pct at some stage in the foreclosure process, and the former are pre-foreclosure, the numbers actually cohere.

Foreclosures threat rises amid arrears crisis
By Saskia Scholtes in New York
Published: December 5 2008 21:10 | Last updated: December 5 2008 21:10

The number of US borrowers behind on their mortgage payments or facing foreclosure rose to record highs in the third quarter and threatened to escalate as job losses mount, the Mortgage Bankers’ Association said on Friday.

Almost 7 per cent of mortgage loans were in arrears in the third quarter, while a further 2.97 per cent were at some stage of the foreclosure process. The MBA estimates that about 2.2m homes will have entered foreclosure proceedings by the end of this year.

Higher unemployment in the midst of what many economists fear will be a deep recession points to an ever gloomier outlook for the mortgage market in 2009, said Jay Brinkmann, chief economist at the MBA.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 14:27:46

“2008 ‘was a year of homebuilders selling off inventory,’ said Norm Scheel, principal for Irvine-based land brokerage Hoffman Co. ‘For 2009, you will see banks selling off inventory.’”
========================

Dude, who are the banks gonna sell to?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 15:08:33

Er, you can see this point clearly but you can’t see why this is powerfully deflationary?

Wow, just wow.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 15:21:21

Truth be said, I could give a rat’s patootie about de/in, it just gives me a chance to tweak with Jas.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 15:23:59

Truth be said, I couldn’t (note the grammar) give a rat’s patootie about de/in either.

I just wanna be right (=make money.) ;-)

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 17:03:29

Worrying about de/in @ this point, is like being stressed out about potential water damage to the engine room of the Titanic, just after it hit the iceberg.

 
Comment by brian
2008-12-06 17:30:10

No right now is the most important time to be correct on the inflation/deflation debate. If inflation (in particular wage inflation) is immediately coming back it would be best to invest in commodities and/or real estate. If deflation is in our future for many multiple years (which is what I believe in) then you’d want to avoid those investment classes at all costs. It is not a trivial matter.

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2008-12-07 09:06:28

Brian, I believe you’re right. I think we’ve already gone thru the high inflation period, between ‘98 and ‘08. Wages didn’t go up, but housing which should be considered as wages, did skyrocket. I believe you have to include housing in the inflation index, as long homeowners have the ability to HELOC for purchases. This raised the prices on cars, education and other big ticket items through demand and easy credit. Isn’t that what inflation is? higher prices from over-liquidity and demand over supply. Higher prices for the most expensive purchases. And then, 2008, higher prices for commodities. Not to mention surging securities through the 1990’s. I’m no economist, but that’s an amatuer economists point of view.

 
 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-12-06 16:27:11

Dude, Jas is unstable. I’d be careful. That dude has major “deer-rifle-in-the-clock-tower” potential.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 16:33:08

No, it’s the usual response of someone who is very intelligent, made a lot of money (Cisco for Jas, as I understand it), and was sidelined (or even mocked) by the “system” inspite of being right.

There’s a natural tendency in those circumstances to push for “correctness” over “efficacy”.

Ironically, the lad exhibits the same characteristics. They are made for each other!

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-12-06 17:14:11

I feel pussy whipped…

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-06 17:33:43

You should.

it would be in character.

 
 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-12-06 15:21:48

Lol.

 
 
 
Comment by worried
2008-12-06 16:22:19

Up here in Utah (Ogden area) homes over 250k are on the market a long time - over a year and still not selling. Homes less than 225 move pretty quick. Not all, but many new homes are McMansions and the forsale signs on those homes are fluttering in the wind. I don’t think anything over $350k has a chance in hell of selling.

Strange, however, prices aren’t dropping precipitously. I guess the owners have enough cash to let them sit on the market for years.

Crime is up in the area, and I expect it to continue. As a one time S. Cali resident, I can’t image what it is and will be like there. I recall hearing gunshots two or three times a week in the SDSU area of San Diego, at least in the early 1990s.

The Phoenix, California, Florida housing bubble combo will become gangland. Wonder how long before personal security becomes a serious issue?

Comment by dude
2008-12-06 22:24:45

The “still not selling” stage precedes the “throw the keys on the roof and walk away” stage.

Don’t worry, worried, the wasatch front will have it’s day in the sun.

My niece and new hubby of 1 year bought a townhouse in Highland in Utah county within months of being married. They both are full time students and he has (so far) a full time job as well. They boought at the absolute peak, how long will they hold on before admitting defeat?

The Koolaid runs deep in Utahr.

Comment by Mike G
2008-12-07 13:18:05

Utah has the highest rate of financial fraud in the US.
Supposedly related to the ‘cultural issues’ unique to that state — people are more willing to believe anything told to them by an ‘authority’-type figure.

 
 
 
Comment by ozajh
2008-12-06 19:56:52

“Economist Sung Won Sohn of California State University, Channel Islands, said the layoffs will get worse. ‘The economy is headed downhill and the brakes are not working,’ he states in a report.”

IMHO this has to get the award for mixed metaphor of the week. Seems to me the brakes are working just fine, maybe a little TOO well in fact.

Is this Doofus arguing that the CA economy is NOT slowing down?

Comment by dude
2008-12-06 22:25:56

See my roller coaster analogy above…

 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2008-12-06 21:33:40

Anybody disagree that this is not a true statement?

“Income loans (without full documentation) are a thing of the past,’ Maley said. ‘Banks want 20 percent down, and credit scores above 700 are pretty typical now.’

I believe Banks are still lending today with less than 20% down in CA and everywhere else. HBB also recently had article on all the new fraud in home loans created within just the last few months where homeowner’s actual income was not what they stated on loan doc. Banks are still not verifying income.

 
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