December 15, 2008

From The Life Of The Party To The Hangover

The Daily Camera reports from Colorado. “Tonja Ahijevych, a housing counseling coordinator for Boulder County, is on track to see a record number of residents seeking to avoid foreclosure this year. More than two dozen homes in Boulder County are listed as foreclosures and selling for more than $1 million. ‘We’ve seen individuals in homes around $100,000 and individuals in homes upwards of $800,000 or $900,000. The typical client is someone who thought when they obtained their loan that they could afford it, and now they’re finding they can’t,’ Ahijevych said.”

“DB Wilson, a Realtor who has 32 years of experience in the local market, said foreclosures among high-end homes are being caused by multiple factors. ‘It’s probably a little bit of everything,’ Wilson said. ‘What you’re seeing is that some are health-related, some are divorces, some are employment, some are speculation.’”

The Rocky Mountain News fro Colorado. “The once booming real estate market in Colorado’s resort areas has taken a hit along with the rest of the economy, with sales dropping by an average of almost 40 percent in counties that include some of the state’s toniest slopeside villages. One home in Aspen on Independence Pass has seen its listing price drop from $25 million to $14.5 million. The 11,500-square-foot home on 5 acres is owned by Alan Potamkin. He and his brother head a national chain of car dealerships.”

“One buyer in Denver, who didn’t want to be identified, said he and his wife both have jobs and strong credit histories. But their plan to buy a condo in Summit County fell apart a week before their closing date because the lender balked when it discovered they were purchasing a unit in a development that allows owners to rent to vacationing visitors.”

“Once the couple discovered they could get a loan somewhere else on far less favorable terms, they tried offering a lower price for the condo. When the seller balked, they decided to put off their purchase until conditions change for the better. The couple’s mortgage broker, who has been in the business 25 years, said the demise of the deal would have been unthinkable until recently.”

“‘It is shocking . . . this was a 20 percent down deal with excellent credit,’ said Mo Robinson, vice president at Kensington Mortgage in Greenwood Village.”

“‘Financing is an issue, I’ve never seen it like this before,’ said Joanne Hanson, who leads a team of brokers in Frisco. ‘They got way too lax now they’re swinging way too much the other way.’”

The Denver Post from Colorado. “My contractor friend Kirby, who specializes in upscale rural residences, had four houses under construction a year ago. Today he has only one, with nothing new on the immediate horizon, and he’s had to lay off most of his employees.”

“I asked a local realty agent. She said the financial collapse hasn’t visibly affected those very rich people who want to build mansions hereabouts. But once you move down the financial food chain, you see problems. ‘I’ve talked to a lot of people who had been planning to retire to the mountains,’ she said, ‘and now they’re telling me that their 401(k)s have tanked and they’re going to have to keep working, so they won’t be moving here anytime soon.’”

“And even if there aren’t many foreclosures here, she said, ‘we’re already feeling the pinch.’ And where there are a lot of foreclosures, ‘then there might be a solution to the affordable-housing problem.’”

The Gazette from Colorado. “Colorado Springs’ development community is reeling, thanks to a combination of factors. Developer Ray O’Sullivan closed his Realty Development Services in August and let go his staff of 16. Since then, O’Sullivan said, he’s unsuccessfully sought financing to jump-start residential and commercial projects.”

“O’Sullivan said he’s tried selling his properties, including the 6,420-acre Santa Fe Springs residential and commercial project east of the Springs in unincorporated El Paso County. But he hasn’t found any takers and expects to lose everything to foreclosure. When he came to town from California in 1990, opportunities were plentiful, O’Sullivan said.”

“Now, ‘the properties I have…I cannot finance them, I cannot ‘equitize’ them, I can’t develop them, I can’t build them. I’m going to basically lose all 20-some projects that I have,’ he said.”

The Daily Sentinel from Colorado. “Two companies in the same industry are taking different approaches to the slowdown they see coming. Bill Johnson, owner of CJ’s Cabinets in Grand Junction, has been down this road before. ‘A year ago, 95 percent of our business was in new construction. Today, less than 5 percent is in new homes,’ Johnson said. ‘We kind of saw the handwriting on the wall’ and changed his emphasis from installing new products to helping customers improve what they already have.”

“The Grand Valley, of late an island of prosperity in a national storm of economic woes, is starting to feel buffeted by the slowdown. Energy companies have hit the brakes on drilling plans as fuel demand slips worldwide, and the construction sector now is taking the brunt of the storm.”

“The speed at which the economy seems to have reversed has been head-spinning, said Diane Schwenke, president of the Grand Junction Area Chamber of Commerce. ‘This year we went from ‘Happy Days are Here Again’ as 2008 started, to end-of-year layoffs, she said. ‘We went from being the life of the party to the hangover in one year,’ Schwenke said.”

The Arizona Republic. “Fears of impending foreclosure drew about 110 people to Gilbert on Saturday for a workshop that addressed everything from budgets to last-resort loan options. One in Glendale drew 1,800 people.”

“Bob and Janet Pilon may be headed toward a foreclosure if their bank won’t agree to reduce their interest rate, they said. The Pilons, who plan to retire in a few years, want to make a large down payment to refinance the home at a lower rate but don’t know if that’s possible. ‘We can’t even sell and get out of it now,’ Janet Pilon said. Without the lower rate, the couple fear they may be facing foreclosure. ‘We’re headed that way, which is very scary.’”

“Kim Carter of Queen Creek (is) interested in a short sale. But if the bank doesn’t agree Carter says the house may go into foreclosure. Carter doesn’t want to renegotiate her loan because she plans to move out of state. Houses in her area are selling for about $120,000 but the Carters paid $195,000 for their home, she said.”

“‘We don’t want to be strapped in another loan,’ Carter said.”

From Forbes. “By 2006, it was clear the Phoenix real estate bubble had burst. Yet those who jumped back in during 2007 badly mistimed the bottom. Phoenix prices are down 20 percent this year, according to the National Association of Realtors. The result? That second wave of speculation has resulted in scads of newly trapped homeowners.”

“‘The same speculators that were partly responsible for the housing bubble and its subsequent popping are the same ones that are trying to replicate the 2003 [through] 2006 period,’ says Anthony Sanders, a professor of finance at Arizona State University. ‘As the housing market seeks a bottom, speculators and some well-funded hedge funds are jumping in the market but finding that the bottom hasn’t been hit yet. Hence, they jump back out again.’”

“This type of scenario is playing out nationwide. Homeowners selling their properties after less than a year now represent 17.3 percent of total sales in the U.S., reports Zillow. This is higher than at any point during the housing boom.”

“Las Vegas and Yuba City, Ariz., are leading the way for these sellers who mistimed the bottom. Respectively, 34.1 percent and 34 percent of these homeowners sold their homes in the third quarter of 2008, despite having owned the homes for less than a year.”

The Review Journal from Nevada. “It was going fairly well for Victor King at one point. His house in the southwest part of the Las Vegas Valley was appraised at $800,000 and business, at a company that tracks vehicles using GPS devices, was good. But business was tightly tied to the construction industry.”

“‘My mortgage was $480,000 and we were having difficulties making the payments, because my company’s business has dropped off 62 percent this year,’ he said Friday.”

“But he’s getting a break. ‘I got a forbearance,’ he said. ‘It allows me to pay about 25 percent of the total mortgage payment for four months, and then they’ll review.’”

“By then, he hopes that a public works program promised by President-elect Barack Obama will be getting started, which would “put us up far beyond where we were before. If not, it’ll still give him time ‘to know pretty much where the company is going to go.’”

“Joe Ramos and his wife will be able to stay in their Silverado Ranch home for now. Their adjustable-rate mortgage reset last year and added $700 to the monthly mortgage payment — which was still fine, until he took an $1,800-a-month pay cut. ‘That killed me,’ he said. ‘We got to the point where we had used up all our savings trying to make the payment.’”

“His lender rolled back the increased interest rate so that the payment is the same as when they first took out the loan in 2001. ‘It’s going to keep us in the house until hopefully the economy turns around,’ Ramos said.”

“It just went from bad to worse. Nevada gaming revenues tumbled 22.3 percent in October, the single largest monthly drop in state history and the 10th straight month gaming revenues have fallen in the Silver State.”

“The gaming revenue results were no better throughout Clark County. Casinos in North Las Vegas saw revenues decline almost 35 percent, downtown casino revenues fell almost 20 percent, gaming revenues were off 28 percent on Boulder Highway, and casinos in Laughlin saw revenues decline nearly 21 percent. ‘When you compare this month to a year ago, it shows you how far we’ve fallen,’ said Frank Streshley, senior research analyst for the Gaming Control Board. ‘It was just a bad month all around.’”

In Business Las Vegas. “Sales of single-family detached homes accounted for 81 percent of all new-home sales in October, according to Hanley Wood Market Intelligence. Overall new-home sales were down 42 percent from September and 80 percent from October 2007. Ladera Crest by KB Home and Newcastle at Highlands Ranch by American West Homes were the two best-selling communities in October. Both had nine net sales. The homes are being sold as low as $91 and $99 per square foot, respectively.”

“As for condos, the firm notes sales increased 250 percent in October compared to September because of 31 units sold at auction at Monterey Las Vegas Country Club. Newport Lofts, which hadn’t had any sales for the year, had six in October.”

“The cancellation rate for homes was 48.6 percent in October, up from 37 percent in September. It was 36.6 percent in October 2007. There was a 54 percent cancellation rate of condos in October. It was a whopping 170 percent in September and 21.5 percent in October 2007.”

The Nevada Appeal. “New subdivision work has come to a standstill in Carson City. Not one home has been built in any of the projects approved in the last three years. The 10 subdivisions the city approved since 2005 make up about 1,150 of the 1,900 empty home lots in the city.”

“City Planning Director Lee Plemel said developers are afraid of paying for infrastructure costs to get their subdivisions started without knowing if they’ll be able sell the properties and cover their costs. ‘They’re pretty up front saying it’s because of sales,’ Plemel said.”

“One of the owners of the 94-home Mills Landing subdivision, Landmark Homes and Development Inc. of Reno, lost its contractors license in November. Landmark had been one of the largest home builders in Northern Nevada. The reason for the slowdown in subdivision building in Carson City is simple, said Dwight Millard, one of the owners of the delayed 201-home Summerhawk development.’

“‘There’s no buyers,’ he said. ‘Nobody’s buying.’”

The Reno Gazette Journal from Nevada. “The past 12 months have been rough on Northern Nevada. Foreclosures crowd the housing market. Jobless rates, once among the lowest in the nation, have ballooned to levels not seen since the 1980s. ‘We’re not used to this,” Tom Fitzgerald, CEO of Nevadaworks, a federally funded work force development program in Reno, said of 7 percent-plus unemployment.”

“‘It creates a panic situation in the minds of people who lost their jobs,’ he said. ‘We’re seeing people walk in and say, ‘I’m desperate. I need a job right now.’ But no agency can help someone that fast.’”

“Tom Cargill, economist at the University of Nevada, Reno, blames lax federal regulatory oversight of lenders and over-reaching congressional pressure promoting home ownership in the past decade for the housing debacle that’s at the root of the recession. ‘That all fueled the bubble. A herd mentality took over (the home-buying market),’ Cargill said. ‘It feeds on itself, and there was no stopping it. By 2006, it was clear it was unsustainable, and it began to collapse.’”

“Brian Kaiser, a housing and real estate analyst at the University of Nevada, Reno, recalls a ‘frenzy’ of home-buying in Northern Nevada where everyone, it seemed, was trying to cash in and not be left out. ‘It’s the ‘bigger-fool’ theory,’ he said. ‘I may be a fool, but I’m banking on the fact that a bigger fool will come along. Ultimately, you run out of fools.’”




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69 Comments »

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-15 11:38:40

“One home in Aspen on Independence Pass has seen its listing price drop from $25 million to $14.5 million. The 11,500-square-foot home on 5 acres is owned by Alan Potamkin. He and his brother head a national chain of car dealerships.”

The Potamkin Villa is in serious trouble.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-12-15 12:14:14

“The Potamkin Villa is in serious trouble.”

Priceless, PB!! :-)

 
Comment by crazy frog
2008-12-15 15:07:23

You cannot make this up. LMAO.

 
 
Comment by ChrisO
2008-12-15 11:46:31

Guess all those savvy Las Vegas real estate “investors” rolled a big snake eyes, eh? Of all the RE markets in the country, I would have to guess that LV falls the hardest, simply because the home prices got so silly and the economy is based entirely on blackjack dealers and gambling chumps.

 
Comment by wmbz
2008-12-15 12:09:26

This guy and millions of others are expecting B.O’s. new deal 2 to save there bacon. I wouldn’t count on it.

“But he’s getting a break. ‘I got a forbearance,’ he said. ‘It allows me to pay about 25 percent of the total mortgage payment for four months, and then they’ll review.’”

“By then, he hopes that a public works program promised by President-elect Barack Obama will be getting started, which would “put us up far beyond where we were before. If not, it’ll still give him time ‘to know pretty much where the company is going to go.’”

Comment by wmbz
2008-12-15 12:11:19

Their bacon.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-12-15 12:29:20

IIRC, a lot of those employed in public works projects during the G.D. had to travel for work and lived pretty humbly - tents, barracks, compounds, etc. (there’s a good doc. on the Hoover Dam that depicts the conditions fairly well)

It’s gonna take a mighty sweet public works project to allow all these guys to drive F-350s to the work site and be home at their 5/3 stucco box in time for dinner.

Comment by santacruzsux
2008-12-15 13:35:24

Well, they can “hope” right?

People are amazing. So much desperation, and so little joy while the days pass them by, hoping that some face they saw on a television screen will save them.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-12-15 13:47:06

Ah yes, public works projects. Like the Big Dig in Boston- graft, kickbacks, big delays, huge overruns. Can’t wait.

Comment by BP
2008-12-15 14:29:26

Let me see, why would a politician from the “Chicago Machine” want big graft prone projects like this? “Change you can believe in”.

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-15 15:38:07

We should have outgoing Bush administration officials coordinate them in a freedom-loving way identical to the Iraq and Katrina reconstruction efforts.

“Mission accomplished.”

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-12-15 17:58:46

“We should have outgoing Bush administration officials coordinate them in a freedom-loving way identical to the Iraq and Katrina reconstruction efforts.”

Don’t forget, Haliburton and Blackwater can assist. ;)

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-12-15 19:20:50

Us engineering and construction guys are lining up already. The future is bright.

 
 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-12-15 14:03:52

new deal failed in 1937- pass it on

Comment by HARM
2008-12-15 19:37:39

I’ll be sure to tell my father that. It (CCC) basically saved him from starvation, and by extension, allowed me to exist.

Oh, I forgot, in Uhmerika, only the only “good” socialism is socialism FOR THE RICH.

Comment by cashedin05
2008-12-15 21:21:10

Give it a rest. You America haters got your guy for at least 4 years. You can smile now.

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Comment by cashedin05
2008-12-15 21:27:32

One more thing. A lot of the rich are getting there ass handed to them during this down turn. Something else that should put a smile on your face.

 
Comment by Itsabouttime
2008-12-16 00:13:25

Obama isn’t “my guy” and I’m not an America-hater. If I were, I would be applauding the last 8 years of ineptitude,idiocy, and ignorance. Instead, I am sad.

I guess you cashedin and thus do not care. So, who really hates America?

IAT

 
Comment by Mike Mahan
2008-12-19 19:15:49

For electing am anti-white socialist, I hope the US burns. It’s unforgivable.

 
 
 
Comment by Mike G
2008-12-17 15:17:04

Yes, the economy took a dive in 1937 — because the level of stimulus was reduced sharply. New economic managers who were most concerned about balancing the federal budget were put in charge, slashed the New Deal programs and the economy and stock market promptly took a dump.

To catagorize this as a ‘failure of the New Deal’ is a stretch.

 
 
 
Comment by SMF
2008-12-15 12:16:49

“‘The same speculators that were partly responsible for the housing bubble and its subsequent popping are the same ones that are trying to replicate the 2003 [through] 2006 period,’ says Anthony Sanders, a professor of finance at Arizona State University. ‘As the housing market seeks a bottom, speculators and some well-funded hedge funds are jumping in the market but finding that the bottom hasn’t been hit yet. Hence, they jump back out again.’”

“This type of scenario is playing out nationwide. Homeowners selling their properties after less than a year now represent 17.3 percent of total sales in the U.S., reports Zillow. This is higher than at any point during the housing boom.”

Exactly what I have said for a long time. The rampant speculation has yet to end.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-12-15 12:32:28

The thought that some of these guys are getting burned twice, or even more, just warms my heart.

 
 
Comment by Curt
2008-12-15 12:58:54

“…But their plan to buy a condo in Summit County fell apart a week before their closing date because the lender balked when it discovered they were purchasing a unit in a development that allows owners to rent to vacationing visitors.”

Ugh! Dirty unwashed renters. Nothing will destroy a neighborhood worse then them!

Comment by Kim
2008-12-15 16:28:59

Heaven forbid anyone take some enjoyment out of a condo sitting vacant 51 weeks of the year.

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-15 18:32:01

Or get some cash to help cover the mortgage and taxes.

 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 15:49:44

Yep, ‘unwashed renters’ in our area, me included, put up the nicest christmas decor. Just as nice as the ‘owners/renters from banks’.
We close our garage door, we put out/bring in our trash cans..

What is with the people who think renting is a bad thing?
I hope they hide in their newly rented garages.
Maybe finally this whole debacle will wake up Americans to get off their ‘keeping up with the jones’s”.

Acquaintaince is married to retired cptn ( who retired with full $1mill+ 15 yrs ago. She always mentions he is cptn ( which always indicates high salaried) and yet just turned up in tears saying they went through the entire million and they have no money.
Another example of people making out like they are ‘all that and then some’. Just peak under the covers and voila.. same ol same ol.

 
 
Comment by sfrenter
2008-12-15 13:10:44

My inlaws visit from Sarasota, FLA a few times a year. Every time I’ve see them in the past few years I have asked them about housing in their area. They’ve always been a little smug - like they live somewhere “special” and “different”.

Not this time. Apparently more than a couple of foreclosures in their immediate neighborhood. They complained of dead grass, etc.

They have a bit of money, so although I have never been to their house, I know they live in a fairly upscale hood.

Comment by mikey
2008-12-15 13:39:08

Brian Kaiser, a housing and real estate analyst at the University of Nevada, Reno, recalls a ‘frenzy’ of home-buying in Northern Nevada where everyone, it seemed, was trying to cash in and not be left out. ‘It’s the ‘bigger-fool’ theory,’ he said. ‘I may be a fool, but I’m banking on the fact that a bigger fool will come along. Ultimately, you run out of fools.’

Yep…they’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for all available Village Idiots and the mentally senile now :)

Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 15:51:30

Speaking of fools, trying very hard to keep a friend from buying immediately “because of cheaper OC housing” and if he posts here, please help him realize, WAIT. No KNIFE catching.

 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-12-15 13:11:14

“Brian Kaiser, a housing and real estate analyst at the University of Nevada, Reno, recalls a ‘frenzy’ of home-buying in Northern Nevada where everyone, it seemed, was trying to cash in and not be left out. ‘It’s the ‘bigger-fool’ theory,’ he said. ‘I may be a fool, but I’m banking on the fact that a bigger fool will come along. Ultimately, you run out of fools.’”

Talk about completely changing one’s tune- this is the same guy who denied that there was a housing bubble, and as recently as last year. He was talking about prices “leveling out”, “pent up demand”, a “recovery”- you name it. I exposed him as a cheerleader on the Reno Gazette Journal blog, and he was angered, and lashed out at me in frustration. Now, he’s acting as if he was aware all along. This a**hole should be fired.

Comment by STL
2008-12-15 21:32:20

BanteringBear, I agree completely. Brian Kaiser first denied a bubble and predicted high rates of appreciation. Then when prices slowed he said “price appreciation is slowing, as expected” even though he made the opposite prediction. Now, he’s talking about bigger fools. At least being a “bigger fool” is something he really knows about.

Brian Kaiser acts like there’s not past, he just wakes up to a new world every day. We know better.

Comment by AnonyRuss
2008-12-16 00:59:20

“Brian Kaiser acts like there’s not past, he just wakes up to a new world every day. We know better.”

Like the guy in Memento ?

Comment by STL
2008-12-16 10:16:38

That’s a pretty good analogy.

In this case, however, the cause isn’t a medical handicap, but instead a moral deficiency.

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Comment by DannyHSDad
2008-12-15 13:50:53

No kidding about the banks being tough: we’re in the process of buying a home in Garden Grove, CA (see my blog on why we’re being a knife catcher).

20% down, 30 yr fixed and below the conforming limit (less than 300k)

They’ve asked for the standard stuff like w2, 2 months of bank statements, paycheck stubs, but also proof of citizenship, phone bill copy and even checking into details like why do I list a commercial address for mailing addr (for security our cc bills and bank statements go to a mail box) and where did the $5,000 transaction go from savings account (it went to checking with no balance so we didn’t provide them with a copy before this doubt of money laundrying). We even had to bring the original phone bill to the escrow office! (Didn’t trust our fax copy).
This is our thid time getting mortgage (95 & 02 were the other 2), and was the most strict/rigorous of the three.

Comment by crazy frog
2008-12-15 15:14:55

Music to my ears.

 
Comment by Neil
2008-12-15 17:49:37

Looks like my prediction of 25% down being the norm might have been optimistic!

Man… two years ago that was an ‘out there’ prediction.

Now I wonder…

Good luck with the house! I don’t have a problem with people being knife catchers. In a year I’ll be one myself. There are reasons layered upon reasons. We’re about to move into our last (hopefully) last rental.

We expect to put 30% down and save some reserves.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by DannyHSDad
2008-12-16 00:25:16

Yes, talk about swinging to the other extreme. Things were too loose and now they are getting more strict than before. (I forgot to mention that they wanted proof that I can pay for few months even if I lose my job, including sources like net cash value of a whole life insurance.)

At this rate, maybe PMI’s will be required even if it is 20+% down payment!

 
 
Comment by incredulous
2008-12-15 18:03:14

RE(for security our cc bills and bank statements go to a mail box)

If you meant a PO box, I wouldn’t be so sure. My parents just had their PO box (I’m talking United States Post Office box, not Mailbox etc) pried open and emptied out. I live closer and went to follow up with the postal inspector, he said break-ins are skyrocketing and averaging about 20-25/month PER post office in Las Vegas. For whatever reason they do about 5 at a time.

Comment by NevadaGal
2008-12-15 18:40:11

I actually ran into a couple of postal thieves when I lived in Henderson (Montego Bay Apts) in April 2006. They took off running as I went to confront them. USPS had to have a unique type of bars put on the boxes.

I was amazed when I moved into the units in 2004 (they were considered a upper middle class complex, at the time) by the number of red seals from the postal inspectors noting that this box had been broken into.

A common problem, apparently in Henderson/LV, just made even worse by the economy.

P.S. Montego Bay is a crime ridden dump because RE speculators bought it a the HB peak and tried to, unsuccessfully, to convert to condos (market for condo conversions died soon after they bought). Now, they let anybody in there to get a rent payment to cover their loan.

 
 
 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-12-15 14:06:05

does anyone have a list a healthy small banks ?

fdic only has a list of bad banks

Comment by scdave
2008-12-15 15:42:40

I would suspect a healthy bank is a new bank…

 
Comment by Pen
2008-12-15 16:59:26

try Salem Five Bank and East Boston Savings Bank.

both are FDIC and DIF insured.

many of the Massachusetts banks learned their lessons in the late 80s, early 90s. many sold off their crap mortgages and kept the cream as portfolio loans.

 
Comment by what-me-worry?
2008-12-16 00:48:56

Search bankrate dot com safe & sound rating.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 15:55:51

Downey got taken over by US Bank, or something.

Is that good?

Notice the Loan Originator, who was originally from Cal Fed, then WaMu, is now gone from Downey/US Bank. Nice neat desk.

 
 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2008-12-15 14:52:37

A new term to add to HBB lingo - “FP” for Financial Psychopath.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/12/magazines/fortune/madoff_dreier.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008121215

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-15 15:16:48

We could put Madoff in charge of Social Security and give him a printing press too. ;-)

Comment by ozajh
2008-12-15 17:28:37

And the pronunciation of his surname gives us a new boom-boom joke.

Q. What happened to my money?
A. Bernie Madoff with it.

Comment by Alex
2008-12-20 16:54:34

Hi, ozajh. You seem to know a lot about the Canberra housing market, and I am trying to find out more about it. (Mostly to persuade a relative that this is a bad time to buy, which I assume it is, but I don’t know enough about the Canberra market to be convincing.) Could I email you with a couple of questions?

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Comment by pressboardbox
2008-12-15 17:45:04

Madoff for SEC chairman!

 
Comment by implosion
2008-12-15 18:38:32

How likely is it that this guy will be taken out at some point?

 
 
 
Comment by Rick
2008-12-15 18:39:55

As a long time reader of this blog I would like to point out the following; All the most dire predictions many of the most doomsday HBB folks have been predicting seemingly have come to pass.

Usually after winning the big game, you do a victory dance, celebrate for a while, and proclaim `I`m Going to Disneyland`

Instead this has pretty much become a forum to sarcastically poke fun at all those who hoped to benefit from real estate investing.

As much as you hate to admit it, real estate investors are necessary to set the bottom of the market, which will settle at a point near rental income = PITI. And I have no apologies to be looking for those properties even at the risk of becoming a FB, knife catcher, upside down, what does it matter if the rent covers my payment? In the long run, housing will rebound and there should be no shame in looking for those opportunities.

But it seems no one on this blog has an appetite for such discussion

Comment by VicthebrickV
2008-12-15 21:21:20

Rick:

When rent covers all expenses, you should start seeing stabilization. What most people on this blog continue to poke fun at in my opinion is that the MSM continues to quote the realtards and economists that are continuing to call a bottom in areas where rents do not cover PITI let alone they continue to ignore the fact that we are in a severe recession. Once the MSM can quote someone with all the facts that can support that we are at a bottom (maybe Roubini?) then you might be having your discussion. You might have to wait a while for that to happen.

 
Comment by cashedin05
2008-12-15 21:45:49

If your investment properties are not at least cash flow even, you are not an investor, you are a speculator. You are guessing that homes will rebound in the long run. How much time is that and how long can you afford to be cash negative on one or more homes?

 
Comment by Price Doubt Forever
2008-12-15 22:29:30

Hi Rick.

I’m also a long-time reader, very occasional poster. It’s funny - I read this blog in almost exactly the opposite sense from what you describe.

I’m not dancing for joy at the bursting of the housing bubble. I might be relieved, but I’m not happy that millions will lose their houses and jobs because the insanity is ending. That I saw the pain coming doesn’t make it less painful. I see the look in my colleagues’ eyes at the thought of their houses and 401k’s, and try to avoid the subjects.

Sure, it’s fun laughing at the failed investors. The ones who told us we were fools not to buy. Who mortgaged their children’s future to live a delusion. Who priced me out of the market by lying about their incomes. But how can one dismiss all real estate investors as a class? After all, those of us who rent would be homeless without them. I ridicule the bubble wannabes for their amateurishness and inability to see reality, not for the idea that real estate could ever be a good investment.

I don’t think you’ll find much argument here about rational investors setting the bottom of the market. Do fish spend all day discussing whether water is a good thing? I’d be happy to buy if the cost is comparable to renting, as I’m sure would many others. Good luck with your search. Now, we might differ on how long housing will take to recover. Personally, I ain’t bothering to look….yet. We’re a long way from the bottom in my area. But I will. Eventually.

In the meantime, I have some more sardonic humor to look forward to.

Comment by redhead68
2008-12-16 08:12:02

Nicely said. The schadenfreude around here is exhausting. I’ve now seen four families in my circle of acquaintances & friends lose their homes, and I suspect there are at least two more coming soon. It’s been devastating for all involved. These were not “investors.” Rather, they were families who through a variety of circumstances could no longer afford to pay their primary mortgages.

One family tried valiantly to hang on for over a year, but even with help from others, finally just gave up about a month ago. They left a $40k down-payment on the table. So, while I’m relieved that the insanity has come to an end, the pain of watching these families pack up for parts unknown is heart-wrenching.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 16:02:17

So this family who “valiantly” tried to hang on for over a year, even with help from friends…”they left a $40k down-payment on the table.”? What did they borrow from friends. You didn’t count that and will they “valiantly ” try to pay that back?
What they left on the table was much much more than that.
And the reason they are in this predicament, is what was mentioned above.. speculators who I/O, or liar loans etc, and the crooks in the Hedge Funds/GoldmanSachs/Lehmans/WallStreet etc and our current administration allowing the “see no evil..”

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Comment by redhead68
2008-12-16 18:47:22

The financial assistance they received was a gift, and there was no expectation of re-payment. It just wasn’t enough, and eventually they gave up. Their shame was palpable, and I found it heart-wrenching. You are free to point fingers, if you will, but I was there, and, while naive, they were not stupid or greedy people. Rather, they were honest, hard-working and generous. I know how painful the process was for everyone involved, including those of us who tried, unsuccessfully, to help. Watching them pack up to leave was the most heart-wrenching thing I have ever experienced.

 
 
 
 
Comment by llcarlos
2008-12-15 23:58:13

What happens if rents start falling?

Comment by crazy frog
2008-12-16 08:39:27

The question should be “what happens WHEN the rents start falling?”

Comment by crazy frog
2008-12-16 08:47:19

And let’s not forget the vacancies. There are so many empty houses everywhere. The landlords now are looking similar to the auto companies – overcapacity to the max and with the resection coming in full swing I cannot imagine from where the demand will come. People will keep on driving their old cars and downsizing. Even if you find a property that is cash flow positive today, there is a very big possibility that it will be loosing cash soon.

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Comment by crazy frog
2008-12-16 08:48:48

Resection = recession

 
 
 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-12-16 03:29:41

Rick,

The game is not over. The reason you see people poking fun at the knife-catchers on this this blog is that it’s still knife-catching season.

You are correct that real estate will rebound in the long term. It’s just that we’re a long way away from the bottom. The Alt-A and Option ARM resets kick in *next year* (2009). In may areas outside the initial blast zones, SFRs and condos are still grossly overpriced. Multifamily residential and commercial RE is still overpriced. And I’m speaking as someone who owns some multifamily residential (but thankfully no commercial).

If you can buy income properties with sustainable rental income that covers expenses *and* produces a profit on your invested dollars greater than LIBOR+2 or +3, go for it. Just don’t count on appreciation in real dollars as your exit strategy unless you have 20 years to wait and nothing better to do with your money.

Personally, I’m not investing any more money in RE unless I see conditions like the early 1970s or better. Not to say that I would not buy an SFR sooner for consumption (to live in), but that’s not an investment. There are so many better places to invest money right now that RE is just not interesting.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 16:03:50

I predict that the RE will not in our lifetime go up so exponentially as it did this past few years. It will stabilize, but over a long long period of time. Long time.

 
 
Comment by yogurt
2008-12-16 05:22:05

real estate investors are necessary to set the bottom of the market, which will settle at a point near rental income = PITI.

If no investors were willing to pay more than rent equivalence for a property, prices would immediately fall to rent equivalence.

It is the present investors who are keeping the market from bottoming.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-12-16 10:53:14

Rick, great post, and I agree with you in many ways. There is nothing wrong with real-estate investing, if you do it in a sufficiently well-thought-out, conservative manner.

I do think you should reconsider your statement “what does it matter if the rent covers my payment?”

Don’t forget, you also need to run a surplus to cover maintenance/damage, vacancies between tenants, etc. The rule of thumb I have always heard is that you want 11/12ths of your annual rent to cover PITI. In other words, assume 1 month of vacancy per year, or the equivalent amount escrowed for future maintenance/re-roofing/etc.

Other things to consider: PITI in lines with rents assume that rents will not decline, and I cannot see how they can avoid dropping. This will be a historic downturn, with higher job-losses than we have seen in a couple of generations, combined with the highest vacant inventory of housing ever. That combination (demand destruction) will push rents down, guaranteed.

Also, don’t discount the overshoot on the way down. The change in psychology will be like a psychological depression (in addition to the economic one), and will affect attitudes towards buying. Don’t ignore either the rational move by lenders to tighten lending, which will also impact volume and pricing.

But eventually, I’m in the same boat as you: I will consider investing in RE when it makes sense financially. That time is not now, and not even close in my view. In 2-3yrs, I will re-evaluate. The bottom will not be short, nor will the recovery be sharp, so there is really no rush to get in.

 
 
Comment by ella
2008-12-15 20:39:56

“The past 12 months have been rough on Northern Nevada. Foreclosures crowd the housing market. Jobless rates, once among the lowest in the nation, have ballooned to levels not seen since the 1980s. ‘We’re not used to this,”

Anecdotally, jobs are disappearing at an amazing rate.

We’re trying to remember to make food bank donations on our weekly grocery trips now.

Comment by sm_landlord
2008-12-16 03:37:22

If the Las Vegas casino business is hurting, Reno must be dying. And I hear that the logistics business is hurting as well, with trucking, rail, UPS, Fedex cutting back. What else is there in Reno? The university? An Amazon warehouse?

I was considering buying something there back in 2001. [wipes forehead]. Also Carson City, which I hear is another dead zone now.

Comment by desertdweller
2008-12-16 16:06:39

Reno was really bad in the early 80s.
Mom worked at temp office.Trying to find people jobs.
Lots of empty days.

 
 
 
Comment by pb_2_au
2008-12-16 11:21:28

Ah, Boulder… to quote a good friend (literally): “it’s different here”.
Another few Madoff blow ups (there’s never just one cockroach) and we’ll see whether the 2pm coffee shop crowds start to think it may be time to rush the Boulder RE exits.

Summit county: friend just bought up there. 450ish for a duplexy type thing, talking to them while they were in negotiations “it’s a great time to buy”.

Prices plateau, sales volumes drop, foreclosures creep up, then prices decline. I just don’t understand what’s so hard to see here.

IMO, the tonier parts of CO are going to get slapped down hard. I guess time will tell.

 
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