The Housing Bubble

I have an old friend from high school who owns an auto repair and air conditioning shop. Business has slowed a bit, as people log fewer miles, and use more public transportation.

Michael, My friend has a four bay import repair shop. He has been at it for 25 years. The most common problem for him is keeping good mechanics/techs and the continued expense of up grading diagnostic equipment to work on newer cars. Techs will bounce around looking for more $ and Ins.

This Nov.-Dec. has been slower than usual for him. It’s always slower during the Holidays, this go round much more so.

One problem he has said has increased is customers leaving their repaired cars longer, due to not having the bucks(or credit) to pay the tab.

All in all people will get their cars fixed, so it’s a business that’s not going away.

I purchased some motor oil at the Napa store recently. Guy told me business has definitely slowed down in the past 6 mos.

This Napa store supplies lots of auto repair businesses in my area.

Thanks for all the responses.

I have a friend who does auto repair. He says he is busy, but it is the low profit jobs that are coming in.

Good points. This, I’d argue is the first wave. What I think Michael was trying to imply was that people are going to hold onto their vehicles ALOT longer than “normal” thus more work will need to be done. I’d tend to agree with that stance. However, logging fewer miles may offset the difference as people decide the back yard vacation will be just fine over the next 2 years.

On the credit card issue I have had the same result. Member since 1992- $25K+ line. I’ve used it to pay off 23 acres in the past, never missed a payment, EVER. Paid in full 4 years ago. Got a mailer saying due to account inactivity they we CANCELLING my card. No reduction. No “special offer” to entice me to use it. Nada. This is how they treat customers that actually pay the bills. What a joke. See you at the bottom.

“This is how they treat customers that actually pay the bills. ”

That’s because to them, you’re a responsible, bill paying “deadbeat.” Welcome to the crowd.

DOC

Well, this is exactly why the Depression is coming – most people are too stylishly dressed for their means. They spend borrowed money for too long.

Coach and Juicy don’t look so nice with the stains from living behind a dumpster.

Went into the Benetton store at Century City mall in LA last week. I bought 2 pairs of pants 50% off. I was the last customer of the day and the saleswoman was adding up the money for the day as she took my purchase. She kept saying that she had never seen things this awful. She said they had gone from 20K a week to 5K a week and the owner of the store paid 26K in rent. I told her maybe it was time to approach the landlord to renegotiate the rent, she said they were reluctant to lower rents because they had not upped them in good times and did not see why they had to reduce them now. Wow. I guess that landlord (Westfield) is due for a rude awakening. The fancy places are deserted, Costco is teeming with shoppers. Good for them.

Isn’t rent tied to the net of the store?

it is soo easy to create new jobs …

Link?

Please tell me this is from The Onion.

Please tell me this is the Onion…

What the heck, just make everything “clothing optional”

That can’t be a real story - the inauguration is in January, and without any shoes you would freeze your feet off.

For a bit of fun try http://www.sockandawe.com.

It is a good thing that the guy didn’t take off his pants and throw them at the President.

Do you realize that Helen Thomas always sits in the front row at press conferences??

Shudder

Let’s just go with chicken wire like in Blues Brothers

…the inauguration is in January…
…you would freeze your feet off…

Cold January weather, clothing optional…

Looks like the US dollar isn’t the only thing
suffering from the effects of “shrinkage”

Is Helen still alive and working????

“If you stay away from all the prepackaged crap, you can cut your grocery bill by 50%.”

Pre-prepared foods, yes. But I always see BOGO processed & junk food… never BOGO fuits and vegetables (unless you grow them yourself). Plain ole bread always costs less than breads made with whole grain, etc., etc.

What is BOGO?

buy one, get one

BOGO = Buy one get one free

Buy One Get One free

Potato chips are always on sale at my supermarket, but never raw potatoes.

If you can’t afford raw potatoes which aren’t on sale, you’ve got problems. They’re like 10 lbs for 4 bucks. I’ve never seen 10 pounds of potato chips for 4 bucks. If they were, I think the standard door size in this country would have to be increased. Disclaimer: I’m not a potato chip and soda person.

‘They’re like 10 lbs for 4 bucks.’

When I first got here from Utarr, hmmm, almost 5 years ago, I was quite indignant that a 10 pound bag of potatoes was 1.99 at the Grotlet. I was used to paying $1.99 for a 25 pound bag at my favorite market, Macey’s in Spanish Fark (it’s ‘Fork’, but pronounced ‘Fark’.), Utarr.
That’s when I bought them with dollars. In October I used to go out to Farmer Jorgensen’s fields by Benjamin and gather up alllllll the potatoes I wanted, after their harvest. I LOVED that. I love potatoes, and I love gathering them up from the chilly earth, brushing off the clods, and carefully packing them into bags. You gotter do it carefully, because of course one bruised potato spoils and causes mass ickiness. I would fill the back of the pick-up truck up, and that’s a LOT of potatoes. All the hashbrowns I wanted, baybees!

So, 1.99 for a mere 10 pounds?! Ridiculous!
I even grumbled about it quite a bit. Ah, the good ol’ days.
NOW, of course, a 10 pound bag costs three whole dollars or more at the Grotlet. Ridiculous!

Peak potatoes?

Potatoes: the next bubble?

Olympiagal
I know what you mean about the price of potatoes! Produce in general always seems a little overpriced these days –particulary potatoes and onions, which I always thought of as being the cheapest veggies you could buy.

I live back on a farm now. It’s amazing all the fruit and veggies we have that end up going to waste because we can’t keep up with it all –and we could be getting a dollar a pound if we wanted.

Foo-Foo economy. That one’s gotta stick.

And Wall Street crooks - don’t forget the “growth engine” of our paper economy!

Don’t forget our best growth industry, tattoo parlors.

Gotta like those shows Miami Ink and LA Ink

Methinks there are going to be some very, very regretful middle aged adults sporting ugly ink.

oddly, everyone I know with tattoos is quite proud of them, no matter how ugly.

personally, I don’t get it.

“oddly, everyone I know with tattoos is quite proud of them, no matter how ugly.”

LOL. Yeah, and I can’t help imagining how weird it’ll be say 20-30 years from now with tatoo covered Grandmothers…”gather round’ yungin’s, Grammy’s gonna tell ya’ the stories behind her jailhouse tats!”

DOC

Yeah and they can access your account too..who hoo…you will be broke before you know it…easy come easy go

El Correcto reuven! I have an acquaintance who makes close to 200K/year under the table and reports 38K. He just defauted on 230K of credit card debt and since he conveyed all his assests to his son some seven years ago has nothing to attach. He laughs about it and what fools people who play by the rules are. The collection people have offered to settle for 40 cents on the dollar but he just laughs at them.

If people think he is the only one doing that they are nuts. That is why banks are pulling back. A lot of americans are deadbeats.

Also, real deadbeats=stimulus check recipients who didn’t pay any taxes.
Argh.

diogenes,

What does your friend do to make that much money under the table?

What does your friend do to make that much money under the table?

I’m going to guess that he’s self-employed. Especially with an S-Corp, you can play a lot of games to avoid the taxman. $38K would be enough to prevent an audit flag from the IRS.

Vermontergal,

Pfffffft. I want details, the nitty gritty of what this person is doing.

Perhaps you can get a reward by reporting him to the taxman…

WAMU did the same to me. Of course I’ve had the card 3 years and have never used it.

I’m wondering if some of you people (nobody in particular) are assuming your credit scores are better than they really are. Something is not adding up here. I have an 800 FICO, and my credit limits were recently INCREASED on both of my cards, without my request or knowledge. I only found this out by accident when I was in my online banking account reconciling my checkbook. On top of that, I have been inundated with offers of 0% for 8 months if I would just tap into them.

Similar here BB. JPMC just boosted our limit to $45k. We have to two cards and both hound us with those checks at least twice a month.

We haven’t had our credit lines cut/reduced (yet), but Citibank sent those notices out to everyone, from what I’ve read on blogs.

We also have 800-ish FICO scores and no debt (pay the CC off every month).

“Banks are evil. Period.”

BINGO. But the conservative/libertarians never fail to create policy that enslaves more people to the banks.

I have posted this before:

Debt is an equal opportunity enslaver.

But the conservative/libertarians never fail to create policy that enslaves more people to the banks.

Thank god pelosi and company were here to save us from handing over billions to banks. lol

Again Ex, the most libertarian person in Congress, Ron Paul, was one of the few stoicly opposing the handout. Care to reconcile that with your misstatement that libertarians are responsible for the anti freedom policies pushed by dems and repubs?

Don’t you have a house to “build” ravi?? lmao.

About what I expected. You’re either off your rocker or flat dishonest. I haven’t decided which.

I vote for the former. Someone that sanctimonious is probably not dishonest.

But hiding behind an alternate user name is the height of cowardice. No deciding there.

lol. you really are off your rocker. I wondered if you had mistyped that or posted in the wrong thread or something…

I post as me and me only. Why in the world would I do anything else?

Paypal: A ball and chain pulling eBay to the bottom, IMHO. Nearly impossible to cancel an account, though.

I’m running across small mom and pop business that only accept cash. One is Louie a restaurant near the Cliff House in San Francisco. They have an ATM right there in the restaurant for those who don’t have the cash. By only accepting cash they have been able to keep their prices down.

Gal: That the dive near the beach with a pool table?

Milkcrate,

It’s the small restaurant that’s above the Cliff House.

A few months back, I had a doctor’s appointment. And I was told that the doctor didn’t take plastic. OTOH, she was quite happy to paid with cash or check.

Yesterday I paid $35 cash for a tire rotation and spin balance. This is a small auto repair shop with a very good reputation, and I am a repeat customer. He gets lots of work while his competitors have few cars to work on.

He does not accept CCs. Told me 3% of revenue is too much of his hard earned money to be giving away. It does not stop people from using his shop.

If, for example, you are a small business operating with a 12% profit margin, and you forfeit 3% of all of your revenues, that is 1/4 of your entire profit!

The whole CC thing is evil!

That’s interesting. I know some heallth offices that have installed check scanners, next to Visa swiper, that confirm available funds on the spot. But lotta patients now not qualified for Care Credit, health finance co.

All that mechanic has to do is charge $36.05 — instead of $35 — to accept credit cards.

People are often too blinded by “principle” to think objectively.

That explains why the card machines in grocery stores default to ‘debit’ and ask for your pin even after you pressed the button marked ‘credit’. i.e. they’ll do anything to make you accidently take the charges (’debit’) rather than them (’credit’).

Principle and objectivity is one thing. Competitive pricing is another.

He is a small shop with only two lifts. Almost any other shop in town has more lifts and personnel, and their spin balance and rotation service is $29.00. Most people shop for auto service by price, so it would be difficult for a small shop to simply increase the price by 3%, especially when the price is already at a 20.7% premium over most other shops in town.

Now I personally do not shop for auto service by price, I go by quality of workmanship. Case in point: After he installed the balancing weights on my tires, he spinned them two additional times to make sure they where balanced to perfection, to indicate “zero” weights needed. And once he had my four wheels on the ground, he hand-torqued my wheel nuts to 100 ft-lbs. Try insisting at most shops to do it this way with your car, and they will kick you out of their shop!. This guy is worth the 21% premium to me!

It doesn’t work like that.

You are better off getting what you get now, and paying for the consequences (as tiny as they seem to be for deadbeat-types) later.

I would not pay that $20.

Why throw away so much money?

First there’s the $20 annual fee out the window each year (have never paid one), but worse yet, you’re throwing away reward points. I receive $500 (tax free) in free gas cards each year via reward points.

Pay your balances in full, yes, but run everything through the cards (cable TV bill, groceries, etc) to earn points, which are paid out tax free.

I agree with you oxide. I do the same thing because you never know when you may be in a pinch.

An annual fee?!! What CC charges an annual fee unless it’s some kind of prepaid card masquerading as a CC for deadbeats.

Got a Chase card that PAYS ME 3% back on purchases in the three most charged categories each month (say groceries, gas, utilities) and 1% on everything else I charge. No annual fee.

BTW, I whacked the RFID chip when the card first arrived.

“BTW, I whacked the RFID chip when the card first arrived.”

Please share how to do this, i.e., locating chip and whackin’ it.

DOC

10 seconds in the microwave should do it.

My understanding is that the banking act passed under Clinton was essentially written by the banking lobbyists.

The bankers got everything they wanted. For example, it made it more difficult for people to walk from debt.

I meant to say it made it more difficult for people to file for bankruptcy.

The bankers got everything they wanted. For example, it made it more difficult for people to walk from debt.

Its actually easier to walk away from your house mortgage than your credit card debt. Who coulda seen that causing problems??

Thanks Vice President Biden!

I haven’t been cut off, and I’m just Joe blow! However, I’ve decided to use my credit cards and pay them some interest to protect my credit score and distinguish my self from the “deadbeats” who pay their bills in full every month and the real deadbeats who don’t pay at all. So far so good. I haven’t had any cuts to the ridiculous amounts they afford me in limits. Not that I need the money, but I don’t want it to affect my credit score, which is paramount.

From what executive consumer relations told me, everyone with a FICO under 750 will see some type of cut. My FICO is in the low 700’s.

680ish here, and a new cardholder (working on engineering a higher fico by force). I use Amex exclusively one month, then zero out the balance and move to discover the next month as much as possible, hoping that they report a balance then a zero to help drive the payoff factor with the flawed, garbage, FICO system. No notice from them so far, but my limit is low. I tend to come close to maxing it out. I actually paid half way thru the month then paid again at the end just to free up room. I like Discover much better than Amex, waaay better rewards points BS, which I know really comes from the percentage added onto the the things I buy to cover the CC fees.

I don’t know how FICO is scored, but wouldn’t it be better to rack up, say, $1200 all at once, and then pay off $150/month for the next year? Instead of looking like an erratic deadbeat, you’ll look like a guy with a job and a plan. (??)

Bink, I’d be cautious using American Express, especially if you’re a charge card customer. They can cut you off at anytime for any reason. I was on a business trip and they declined my hotel because my balance was “higher than usual” and this was years ago. Converted the charge to a regular card with a regular limit and had no problems until they cut the limit.

No worries. I keep some extra cards around for emergencies and always have the option of pulling cash from my national bank (so long as it stays in business).

That makes me think.. I wonder if Amex travel insurance would pay me if Amex declined my trip home?

LOL!

Know a CEO who resigned when the company lost financing but didn’t make sure the credit cards were cancelled. The CFO who handled the dissolution charged over 50K to the card… leading to 10 years of credit headaches for the ex-CEO.

CC’s are non-secured. As far as I know there’s nothing they can do except slam your credit score. They can attempt a civil suit I believe, but no jail time. Thus I don’t think there’s too much chance of people physically fleeing from CC default.

So were I a CC company - I would be more concerned about big-ticket purchases than I would food and gas.

Coincidentally, I just found this interesting article written yesterday (will post a link, but it’ll take a while…)

El linko…

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jail-For-Non-Payment-of-Credit-Cards?&id=694771

I just want to say that this is an absolutely awesome thread. Much more civil and more informative than the political and gold discussions.

(did we really lose alad? He was so funny when he was non-gold…)

Vegas odds of his return: 5:2.
Credit card limits: refreshing topic, agreed.

Oops sorry,

To elaborate on Salad SD. Food and gas is a sure sign of a risky customer. Customers who suddely put food on Mastercard likely just ran out of cash and are likely to default. CC’s will cut the credit before the customer runs up any more.

Ah - interesting - didn’t think of that.

In my case we put all our food and gas on our CC anyhow, since it gives 5% back (Amex blue). We pay it off every month though - not really a default risk :).

That’s interesting, I never thought about the gas and groceries angle. I would say that with my Citi CC 100% of my purchases are gas, groceries, and drug store. I am a “transactor,” or a guy who pays entirely at every billing cycle.

Even though I do not pay any interest, it is true that I am addicted to credit card use. I sure as heck like the convenience of paying for gas right at the pump, and I get my school textbooks online at reduced prices. So no, I am not so pissed that I will cut up all of my credit cards.

The banks get a certain percentage from every CC transaction. Depending on the size of the business, this percentage can be as much as 3%. But that is not enough; they want 30% on balances, $39 for breathing-air-fee, etc. Greedy b*stards.

Huh, so that’s what I am: a “transactor”. And here I thought I was just being fiscally responsible by paying off the entire CC balance every month.

I’ve read that CC companies hate people like me. But hey, we charge a LOT on our card, and the bank earns plenty on those charges, up to 3% or so of the total. I’ve used that fact as leverage to get finance charges reversed on the exceedingly rare occasion when the payment didn’t reach them by the due date (which of course was ALWAYS either their fault, or the post office’s, back before online bill-paying, LOL).

I just wanted to add that using a CC to buy food and gas is not a sign of having financial difficulty. In fact, the only time I don’t use a CC is when I pay rent (the house prices here are still ridiculously expensive.) All of our bills are set up to use Auto-Pay via CC. Every year one credit card gets me a free plain ticket, another gives me $300 back (5% cashback on gas and food), a third CC offers a 3% cash back on amazon.com purchases, and my “last” credit card, Amex, is used to extend the warranty of electronic items.

I have not paid interest on a CC since 2-3 years ago, my credit limit continues being increased without my consent, and I get paid for using CCs. I just don’t see why someone would not want to use a CC or pay an annual fee (unless in the end they come out ahead). (My credit score is over 800)

Dime,

I am seeing breathtaking price reductions on houses listed in the Daytona/Ormond community where close friends bought in 2006 (!). Their ASKING price, if they were to put their house on the market now, would be around 40% below what they paid.

Bill,

I’m seeing the same thing here in West Palm. Prices are SO low right now and a lot of people still aren’t biting. We’re in for a rough ride.

I went to a wedding in Clearwater Beach last weekend. Stayed at the Hilton on the Beach. I toured the local residential neighborhoods and found the expected empty homes as I’ve heard about. But the thing that stunned me was all the closed shops along the beach walk and around the hotel. At least half of them were closed up and empty. The commercial rents must be getting drilled.

Well I have decided to take my chances on a home that was built last year.
It is LP and in perfect condition. It is the exact home that I wanted to have built.
I have a huge cash down payment of 60% of the selling price and I am in it for the long term. This will be my home to retire in.
My short sale offer is still waiting for approval and I am getting an excellent rate, I am waiting from word from my broker to tell me what the new rates will be as of today.
I know I am taking a huge chance paying .60 cents on the dollar from what the former owner paid.

I am tired of renting and tired of waiting for my life to start as far as I am concerned this is worth something to. So if this home drops down to 200,000 I will be mad but I will get over it.

This home sold for 450,000 and my offer should be approved for 275,000. I am putting down 167,000.

My opinion…and it’s just that…you’re still paying too much. And with that much to put down, I’d keep that money in something besides real estate.

“tired of waiting for my life to start ”

skb - that’s a shame that part of how you define your life is owning a house. Many people spend their entire lives renting and live not only good lives, but exceptional lives.

I think you might have been sucked-in to the perception that home ownership somehow makes your life more secure and settled, or maybe even a fulfillment of some “dream” that savvy wealthy folk have concocted to sell houses. Or maybe it’s peer pressure because all your friends have houses.

Ah, well, good luck with your place.

“tired of waiting for my life to start ”

my life started oct 14, 1969.

SKB- with 20% down, does it cash flow as a rental? If so, and you want to spend the rest of your life there, it’s probably not a bad decision. But, you said that “if it drops below $200k, you will be mad”. It sounds like you’re speculating. Not a good bet, IMHO.

SKB- I pray you are not in Florida. If you are, give it another year and a bank will probably pay you to take the house.

OK, maybe a bit over the top….but try $135,000. It is coming. I am now appraising houses bought in 2006 for over $400,000 at $210,000 and we are a long way from done.

Is skb a regular poster? He/she reads like a troll. If not a troll my apologies.

Gotta chime in with the group. I can’t imagine paying over 150K for anything in Florida right now, unless you are pulling down six figures with some depression-resistant job. If you buy something a little lower end, the further decline won’t hurt too much, even if it’s 30-40%. Also, no taxes on first 50K, so a 275K house pays more than twice the tax of a 150Ker. You’re overpaying.

(Technically, it’s no taxes on the first $25K and the THIRD $25K, so a 50K and a 75K house both pay taxes on 25K.)

‘Is skb a regular poster? He/she reads like a troll. If not a troll my apologies.’

Yooooooo just are eager to revile a troll, sanfrangal! Admit it!
Sigh. It HAS been so long since we had one to play with.
Where’d they all go?

(sung lugubriously to the tune of ‘Bring in the clowns’)

Ooooohhhhh, bring in the trolllls…
Where are the trollllsssss…
…Well, maybe next YearRRRRRR….’

To all of the posters,

I am not a troll, I am a regular reader and on and off poster.

I have been following this blog for three years now and I was a regular poster to FloridaParadiselost until the owner of the blog suddenly stopped posting and some guy named CrazyG continued to post and say horrible things. He was a real nut job, in fact he has even posted in here a few times, there was a lady named Elizabeth that turned me onto this blog.

I don’t want to have to type my entire story, although most of you would find it very interesting to say the least if you did hear it. I know I posted the entire story on that other board but darned if I could find it now.

My statement of my life starting doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel about finally making this purchase.
The sacrifices we have made over the last 8 years have been a lot. My husband went to war in Iraq, we lived overseas in two different countries, I had been ill, but during the entire time we saved, saved and saved our money. This money we have for our purchase was saved over a 4.5 year period.

When I say I want to start my life I mean to be able to put up my barn, pastures, riding ring. My life revolves around my animals. We have four birds, four dogs, a cat and two show pleasure horses.
I show western pleasure horses and currently I am spending a fortune in Florida boarding them in a show barn.
I want to buy my own place so I can have the convenience of having my horses at home with me. I am tired of coming home at 8:00 pm each night when I leave at 7 am for work.
I miss my other animals and want to spend more time with them.
I am 45 years old and and I have owned 4 houses, my husband has owned only one. Home ownership is fine but I am only buying because. WE can afford it, have the money and I want a beautiful home that is NOT ruined by some stupid person that bought over their head and knocked the walls down and ripped out the kitchen.
There is NOTHING nice and brand new in the range of 150,000 in my zip code. If I wanted to move to Port St Lucie there are TONS like that. I have no desire to live in that dump.

My husband works for the Federal Government and unless we put a stop to illigals and terrorisim his job is not going anywhere. I work as a trainer with a great salary in a call center and we are certainly a lot busier than we have ever been. I can not see us going out of business as we are one of the few industries that are doing well and better and better with each new defaulting charged-off debt.

I am talking about getting a mortgage of 108,000. My rent on this old home is 1400.00 per month, do the math.

So are you telling me that this home priced as a short sale at 275,000 will somehow be worth 150,000 some day?
(This is the model home which the builder is still building) I went to see them and they couldn’t come close to offering me this price) The home I am looking at is also on 1.31 acres of land and no pond in a very desirable area in Palm Beach County.

http://www.visualtour.com/shownp.asp?sk=29&t=1290339

These homes were selling for over 500,000 during the run up. The lots were 250,000 alone during that crazy time.

I am being called a “speculator” but what are the rest of you called that keep predicting where the prices are going to end up?

I understand what you are all saying………what should I do continue to rent this old home pay 1400.00 per month and keep boarding my horses and paying for it?

I have no desire to find another rental, it was hard enough to find someone that would take on the amount of pets we have.

My situation is a bit different than others, most people don’t have this much cash to spend and Noah’s ark living with them.

I appreciate everyone’s comment and thoughts. I wish we would have a Florida get together like they have done in other parts.
It would be great to do a West Palm Beach one. I would certainly attend. It would be helpful.

SKB

SKF, it is not my nature to rain on a colleague’s parade. However, I have also owned horses. The arcreage you cite (1.3) is NOT enough for barn, ring, house and pasture. Do the math. Sketch it out.

In the Northeast, it is an OK move to put your stable next to the house given the six month winters, heat loss, propensity to put off breaking the ice off the water when it’s a minus 10 wind chill, etc. In Florida, putting the house next to the barn, you are asking for a year round fly and mouse/rat infestation in your house.

If you sketch out a riding ring, you will find that it takes half an acre easily.

Where will you put your used shavings and manure? Mound it in the center of the riding ring? Not going to work. Your neighbors will lynch you before putting up with a mound of composing horse manure in the middle of your ring. Plus, the stress of pretending to ignore year round flies and rats in and around your house will lead you to an early death.

OK. We have dealt with the house, barn and ring.

You plumb don’t have room for pasture. Noway, nohow. One horse needs two acres for pasture. Otherwise it will be eating its own poop. Yes, I KNOW zoning frequently requires only one acre per horse. If you take that as gospel, you are STILL hosed.

If you want to actually live on the place with your animals, the most land-intensive of which are the horses, I’m sorry to say you will need more acreage than 1.3.

That’s a fact, Jack.

“acreage”, not whatever I wrote before. Sorry.

It is all figured out Jack, We went to the house and measured everything out and my husband made scaled plans.

I have enough room for a decent sized pasture along the side of my house and two smaller ( 50 X 50) day pens in the back, a 116 X 60 foot ring (along the side) , a three stall barn.
The mature bin is located off of the back of the barn and the pick up will be easy as the house is located on the end of a road with a canal running up next to it. The pick up guy wlil drive down the side of the canal road and load up.
The barn is located a good distance from the house and as far as flys are concerned we use predator bugs, fly spray in the barns and we pick up our pastures to.

We have put a lot of thought into this.
In my part of Florida we don’t have acres and acres of pastures like the Northern parts. Our horses don’t have miles of rolling green hills and lush grasses.

My gelding QH is most likely going to be leased out to a friend on her property so it will just be my Paint and a companion mini or goat anyways.

Many people have much more than 1 or 2 horses on their property around these parts. Most people have jumpers, hunters, dressage horses and don’t “turn out”.

My horse being thin skinned and fair and a well bred show horse (worth a lot of money) can’t be turned out in the sun anyways as she would burn or get skin cancer. She is worked daily and knows her job and loves it.

BTW, I have been showing western pleasure horses and cutting horses for over 20 years and do know how to set up a barn etc..I am not some idiot who doesn’t have a clue, or romanticizes the idea of having horses.

We work with what we have in Florida. As far as rats we have those already living in the down spout, we kill them when we get lucky with the traps and we don’t have any horses on this property we rent. Rats come regardless, this is Florida bugs, rats, alligators, heat, snakes, huge spiders = trade off to living in Florida and having warm year round weather.

Hope it all works great, SBD!

SKB,

I’ve seen your name before, so don’t think you’re a troll.

We’re in California, so not on top of the FL market. If nothing else, I’d certainly consider what jane and dimedropped (an appraiser) were saying.

That being said, I also understand the strong desire you have to settle in with your animals (we have kids, and the pressures are similar).

If you do decide to buy, I wish you all the best!

Thank you CA renter.

I am concerned about what dimedropped has said, very concerned.

I appreciate everyone’s comments positive and negative.

Thankyou so much and I will take everything into consideration.

skb, my 2 cents (and that’s all it’s worth, ’cause I don’t know nuthin’ bout horses or Florida property) is that if you’re planning to stay put wherever you buy, and it will make you happy to have all your furry friends together in one place, and you think the price is reasonable, then go for it. My attitude is that my home is not an investment, it’s the place where I live. Your mortgage will be pretty modest by most anyone’s standard.

Also, life’s too short to wait endlessly to make your dream come true.

Thank-you for saying that Elanor

I have been struggling all day with all of this.

The thing is the is the most money I have ever spent on a home. It is also the nicest home I have ever considered purchasing.
How much lower can it get? Who really knows for sure, we can certainly afford the payment.
We are mid forties and not getting any younger. This home is our last home. I have no greater desires for anything beyond this. This home would be left to our children one day.
If I wait a year, will this beautiful home be worth less? Does it matter? I am at the point now that I feel once we purchase I will stop reading this site and just live my life and enjoy my home.
I have been obsessed with this topic for far to long and my husband is sick of me talking about it.
I am sick of me talking about it.

I found out today that my offer is now being considered and I will know tomorrow.

Thank you again for your support.

No, no - the bagholder will be taxpayers and savers. Producers will be punished.

“With affimative action type underwriting standards, watch for huge number of the Section 8 “ghetto gangsta” crowd to be re-settled in single family detached housing. ”

Already been happening. Had a pair of ghetto-ites living next door a few years back. The usual violent types with prison-buddies for friends, no legal source of income, etc. They eventually moved out and “bought a house.” Such a system: ghetto-bums with illegal incomes buying houses while producers and savers are priced out. Yeah, let’s see how well that plays out long-term!

The wife had one of three single family detatched houses on a street with maybe six duplexes owned by slumlords. There was a mixed race couple (he was black; she was right off the boat from Ireland, blonde) in the downstairs unit next door. The couple lived there a dozen years, had two children, and balked when the slumlord raised the rent from $1000 to $1200. They also had trouble with a psycho cab driver who lived upstairs. Wife cried when they moved out. Ayway, the first replacements the slumlord put in the place was a 25ish couple. Made the mistake the first week of giving a smoke to the female half of the couple; the knocks on the door and requests for smokes became more frequent. I finally got nasty and never talked to either of them again. I’m pretty sure they were oxycontin addicts. Wife was still civil with them until one day she came home to find that her older son had loaned her hairdryer to the woman. She had to go retreive it. She never spoke to them again. That’s OK; they were gone within six months. Wife and I got out of there before next tennants moved in.

Shuzilla,

Not at all. I’m not ready to totally dismiss the possibility this could “re-ignite the bubble!” or spur unneeded consumption, ( but look around ) I think everyone has learned their lesson.

Industry shills of course are still praying for exactly ‘that’ but we can’t get consumers to spring for Guitar Hero for the kids ( let alone throw borrowed dollars at McMansions ) What exactly are we worried about here?

The same way that any economy will react when you have a massive influx of money into an asset. By inflating the cost of the underlying asset. That is why it is such a bad idea, as no matter what you do housing is unbelievably expensive for a majority of people, and 3.5 to 4 times income is still far too much to pay for housing… With how things are going try 2 to 2.5 times income, as now health care, and retirement are not being taken care of by the companies.
The BEST thing that can happen is for the government to stop subsidizing housing at any level, and let the chips fall where they may. You might be surprised at the renewed competitiveness that cheap housing will provide, as more of each months money can go to investing into our future, instead of paying for an overpriced asset… Think about that…

Shuzilla,

Sorry, lost a post there but I heartily endorse this plan and think it certainly merits further discussion. I’ve been a fan of mortgage acceleration for years and since there’s no HELOC $’s remotely available to pay down other debts..?

If the check goes -directly- from SS to the lender w/ the caveat that this is being done to reduce debt ( not make bubble bucks available for further spending ) there shouldn’t be any problems. Remember, this is v-o-l-u-n-t-a-r-y so the people that jump through the hoops to participate aren’t going to do anything that’s not in their best interests long term.

Ultimately… it also places less strain on SS as well.

Pinch-a-penny,

If you’re thinking this is being proposed w/ the intent of propping up the -Inland Empire- you may not be in the right place?

‘Those’ are the “walk away” crowd that grossly over paid and Shuzilla nor myself have ‘any’ interest in doing damage control where the damage is already done. Likely this will appeal to mid-westerners ( or those of a similar mind-set ) that actually are able to think beyond next payday.

It’s about financial planning, not central economic planning.

I think you guys are forgetting about what happens when the buyer with no skin in the game decides to not pay back the Social Security loan?

Do we take money from their pay check? Give them no Social Security when they want to retire?

Skip,

Again if you’re a person that doesn’t have all that much in your acct., you’re probably not homeowner material to begin with? Either you worked under the table or didn’t work at all? If you worked under the table you’re SOL anyway.

If you’re of an age where you have plenty of equity in your home and paid a TON into SS, well then no, obviously you’ve no need of the plan and may… even want to consider a reverse mortgage or selling etc.

But if you’re in your mid 30’s to mid 50’s, have paid a fair amount into SS and have ’some’ equity but a mortgage payment that doesn’t allow you to contribute to your 401k or IRA the way that you’d ‘like’ to..!? Then yes, this ‘may’ be a good fit for you.

If you’re in your 20’s and don’t really have anything built up in your acct. and either ‘just’ bought a home or wouldn’t even -consider- buying at THESE prices then you should do focus on what 20-somethings should be focused on ( namely partying and getting laid ) Why is this such a leap for so many of you guys?

I’m with skip.

You guys are being way to optimistic in thinking people have learned a lesson. Trust me, we are far from that point.

Idiots will see a new source of funds for buying houses and will claim that since they are “borrowing from themselves” they won’t have to pay it off. What happens when it’s time to retire and the SS funds aren’t there.

Let them starve in the streets, or shall we have another bailout?

Why are so many people trying to come up with convoluted ways to artificially prop up housing prices?

The ONLY thing that will work is for debt to be destroyed (either by massive wage inflation/debasing the dollar OR walking away from current debt). There is no other way.

Housing prices need to drop to levels that are MORE affordable than in the past — note the medical and retirement savings that are needed today, compared to previous years, as the OP stated.

The sooner we let prices drop to their intrinsic value (no via funky mortgages or suppressed rates), the sooner we can build up our country and economy again.

“It also, indirectly, punishes people who choose not to buy a home because they don’t get all these deals; and it makes rentals cost more.”

Yes, it would make less sense to rent.

As far as affordability, you have to consider what saving interest does to the equasion. For a 30-year, 6% mortgage… OK, maybe 2 to 2.5 times income is truly affordable. No argument there.

But if you could save, say, $100,000 in interest on a $200,000 loan, the TOTAL cost of the home (principal plus interest plus down payment) will be even more affordable. 3.5-to-4 times-income loans would become as affordable as 2-to-2.5-times income homes are now.

Bottom line: if you have a mortgage, you are effectively borrowing from the mortgage company at whatever rate to pay into your SS for a near-zero return. That’s insanity.

reuven,

Who said “cram downs” couldn’t be part of the proposal? Not ‘me’? We also discussed the potential for ’some’ to opt out of SS benefits altogether! If the applicant’s scenario dictates that they would be better served by having a paid off home well prior to retirement then that is an option for them.

I’ll have to respectfully disagree w/ you guys on this one. Even ‘without’ a bubble, this should be on the table. Let me ask you something? If YOU were given the choice to have access to your SS acct. and pay down ( or in some cases pay OFF ) your house and then be given the option to either re-pay the acct. or opt out altogether… would you take it?

Or would you just continue to lump along and make the regular PITI payments that have very little if any “P” to them? You really have to have a certain grasp on the basic principles of mortgage acceleration to engage this head on.

I paid off my mortgage in 15 years.

I would oppose this program because:

1. It would slow the decline of house prices to their correct market value.

2. It would be unfair to people who chose not to buy houses or (like me) have paid their house off.

3. I have paid the maximum into Social Security since 1984. I don’t anticipate getting my fair share back. Barack Obama wants to remove the cap (at which point, I will stop working) which will increase the unfairness! I will get little or nothing back, and I’d be paying a boatload of money each year, 15% of my gross, to keep house prices propped up. No thank you.

This plan is still borrowing from the future to spend in the present. Bad idea.

reuven,

I’m not oblivious to HOW you feel. If anything, I’m more in your position than someone that could really, really desperately benefit from this type of plan!

Personally, I’ve -already- written off SS. Be nice if I see some, but I’m not counting on it. I’m on a path to have my home paid off in the next 7 to 10 years ( although that could change for better or worse by the day )

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to demand everyone that -isn’t- in that position suffer to the max just b/c I want to see the world burn? I guess the question for many would be, would you rather a paid off home and at least ’some’ savings or a check for $691 a month and 21 years left on a $1,538 a month mortgage?

I don’t want to see the world burn! I want to see affordable homes again! Homes that sell for 2x median income. Let’s get there!

I am a renter and am of an age that makes me doubt I will see any of the money I paid into SS. I would be for a plan that allows me to access my SS contributions without any stipulation that I am forced to buy a house with that money. Why do you need these plans to let people buy homes? Let home prices fall to a reasonable level and maybe I’ll buy one.

All of these plans benefit the people that overextended themselves and blew their wad too early. Those of us that planned ahead and sacrificed get nothing or even end up paying additionally. It isn’t fair and in my opinion it isn’t even moral.

Here is the plan we really need. Stop making bail-out plans. Stop supporting housing market in any way, no tax breaks, no nothin. Govts at the state and federal level must not spend any more than they take in in tax money. Govt must stop giving money to any companies. Let that cook for a few years and all of our problems are solved and we won’t need any more bail-out plans.

To quote Shuzilla, “You [, shuzilla,] are a complete fool. And willfully misinformed. Turn the page.”

Stop trying to prop up prices. Turn the page. Let ‘em crash.

IAT

Pinch,

I’m not about to debate that, it all rings true. And yes, there likely ‘will’ be unintended consequences. But we have to get back to an economy that *isn’t reliant entirely on credit ( or even GROWTH in credit! )

Having citizens with solid balance sheets nearing or in retirement will be better for eveybody. At some point we have to give up on rubber necking the crash and start to at least offer some solutions. If this were any other country ( especially one that loves to point out ‘our’ flaws ) I’d say “let it burn”. But it isn’t. This America’s tit in the wringer and I happen to think Shuzilla is on to something.

I just want to see where it leads?

I am there with you. I do not want to see the country burn. Once upon a time, the US produced products and services that were the envy of the world over, but something happened in the interim.
We became fat and lazy (and believe me, I need to lose some weight), but the inherent capacity to go back and do the same is here. We still manufacture some pretty amazing things, but we also need to be competitive worldwide. If I could buy a house, and pay $300 a month, I could conceivably live with a much smaller paycheck, and this would help my employer lower his cost, so that my 100% of salary is not allocated to India or China.
The road to recovery does not lie in the raiding of Social security, but in the repricing of assets, labor, and specially intelligence. Right now the first 2 are too expensive compared to the rest of the world, and the 3rd is way under appreciated.
Now we just need to shrug off the “service economy is the new economy” claptrap, and get down to the business of designing, producing, and selling innovative products that have mass appeal…

Pinch,

Again, hard to argue that, and you’ve re-invigorated me in sending the “service economy” BS right where it belongs!

You pose an interesting scenario though, one where we perhaps traded our viability as a nation ( but involved honest work ) for a ponzi that held the promise of early retirement? I suppose it’s easy for me to advocate pulling the plug on SS ( as I never really saw the value in it to begin with? ) and the other part that makes it uphill is that every time we get in a bind, it’s the 1st place we turn?

As I look at the HM at large though it’s still easy for me to see this as a viable option ( for those that chose ) and not have it interfere w/ a normal and needed correction. Given that much of our remaining mfr. is in the midwest lends a LOT of credibility to your claim.

repricing of assets, labor, and specially intelligence. Right now the first 2 are too expensive compared to the rest of the world,

First off, labor isn’t the lead weight. Lets start with CEOs, mgmnt, wallstreet, ‘bottom lines’ etc. And hows about the fact that almost all of our manufacturing jobs are indeed gone.
Spoke with several techs who are in India today. Gosh it would have been nice to speak with someone local, ie USA. Meanwhile it isn’t the cost of labor, it is what the upper execs get paid while paying the offshores a pittance. Because they CAN>

Haves and Have Mores… you are feeding right into that BS.
Why should we as the have to be compared to the “rest of the world” when we are definitely not china,india,vietnam,laos, and the list goes on. Why?
It is just the ability that our elected officials have taken to removing all jobs offshore, except theirs. I certainly don’t see what is so “specially intelligence” about them or the ceos/execs.

Desert:
Could you please identify where you found this intelligence? I Have NEVER seen intelligent life past certain level
You are on the right track though… If you and I get paid less, I naturally will work less, no more late evenings, and if a deadline or two go past me, I will look at the swooshing sound that they make as they blow by.
No, What I meant to say, is that capable people take time to train, and to become productive. Lets take your Machinist. That job is more of an art than a science, and will take decades to perfect. If you see a young machinist, put down the piece, and go away. Same for a lot of very specilized skills that are being ground down. This intelligence is the one not rewarded! This experiece, is the one we have elected to throw away, and that is not quite compensated properly. I can train a Service Delivery Representative, or whatever you want to call them these days, maybe even customer service engineer, in 3 weeks. That job can and will be performed anywhere. That job should be outsourced, until we get fed up with companies that do so, and stop using them, and until that happens, outsourcing to third world countries will continue unabated.

We live in a 74% consumer driven economy. It was only a matter of time before the rising vector of inflation crossed the line of stagnate/falling wages. Result? Obvious.

Without increases in income, this plan fails. And corporations and TPTB are hellbent on seeing that wages remain stagnate or actually decrease for J6P.

Also, while this is a board about the housing crisis with general economy talk thrown in, it must be said that housing is not and should not be the focus nor centerpiece of our economy.

With all due respect, you are completely missing the point.

A person buying a $200,000 home at 6% financing with 10% down will pay $388,500 for the home.

A person buying the same home, borrowing $50k from SS at 0% as a downpayment and putting future SS and 401k contributions (about 20% of a $50k income) would only pay about $240,000 for that house and would own it in 8 years.

There’s your effective increase in income. One doesn’t need to make more, only to spend less on the biggest purchase of one’s life.

A $240,000 home is always more affordable than a $388,500 home. Always. And owning your home in 8 years instead of 30 doesn’t suck either.

There’s now way that paying a $240,000 loan back to the mortgage company then your SS account will ever be more difficult than paying $388,500 to the mortgage company alone. If you can pay $389k back over 30 years you can certainly pay $240K over the same period of time, or less.

A person who can’t afford a $388,500 home may be able to buy the $240,000 home. By refinancing under this plan, it’s the same damn home!

Now, which feeds the “pigmen” more: paying $209,000 of interest over 30 years while forced savings remain out of reach, or $39,000 in interest over 8 years in a senario whereby the majority of financing comes from the free use of one’s own money?

It’s just that simple. The question is, can money going directly to bail out banks go instead to mortgage holders first and then to the banks? Of course it can. can we afford it? Well, the decision to inject liquidity has been made. Politicians, however, do have some say in how it gets spent. And it IS our own savings.

Shuzilla,

I greatly admire your desire to come up with innovative ideas to fix the economy. Good for you.

One problem I see with this plan is that the benefit will go to the borrower in your scenario. The problem is, once this plan is enacted, the sellers will see to it that THEY receive the benefit in the form of higher prices.

There is a maximum monthly payment that the average person is able to afford. Prices and interest rates move inversely around this number. If you drop rates, prices will rise (note what happened during the bubble).

We need LOWER PRICES in order to get affordable housing.

You are trying to cure this in a round-about way, but the bottom line is prices are too high. If you reduce prices, buyers have more control over the entire deal. They can pay cash (if able), or make larger down payments (as a % of price, or they can find funding from a variety of sources (friends, family, private lending, etc.). They can more easily accelerate the mortgage payments because if they can save an extra $100/mo to send in with their payment, that $100 pays off more principal than if they had bought at a higher price.

‘And would the kitty, with the moral outrage of being part of a hideous thought experiment, wake you up at 2am demanding food and a hug?’

Hahahahaha! Funniness.

http://tinyurl.com/3ezn5x

That was some from of the protests on Wall Street during the bailout hearings.

Note how many people attended these rallies. Strange how it wasn’t really mentioned in the MSM, no?

Shoe Pavillion is bankrupt. They have closed all their stores.

And they talk about deflation like it’s a bad thing. I, for one, would enjoy a five-dollar lunch.

That is when I withdrew my kids and decided to rent in fancy towns with fancy educational systems, and let the landlords pay the taxes.

A good strategy.

Somehow, I’m reminded of the movie “The slums of Beverly Hills.”

That is when I withdrew my kids and decided to rent in fancy towns with fancy educational systems, and let the landlords pay the taxes.

We homeschool right now, but we rent in good school districts in case we want or need the kiddos to join the unwashed public school masses. I’m thinking you and I and possibly 2 or 3 others in middle America are the only people to notice that you only need to reside in a fancy school district, not buy into one.

When my wife was just a wee one, her mother did this after the divorce, but she overshot on the school system and my wife ended up going to high school with undermotivated, mean rich kids. OTOH, because she was motivated (and close to starvation at home–all the child support went to rent) she got really good grades and a free ride through college.

Still… I think she should have gone one step down on the school system… the kids would have been brighter, maybe college would have been a little less challenging (my wife made it because she got by on 5 hours of sleep), and they wouldn’t have had to crash Grandma’s house on the weekend because they had run out of food.

Since we were talking about renting in fancy school systems…;D

“You’re short the funding currency. It’s great if there’s a vertical drop.”

Dammit, man! Speaky English! Talk to me like I am a 5 year old with some money to invest.

that is great as long as it lasts; but speculators might be afraid to get whipsawed (like last summer), I think they prefer steady depreciation …

reminds me of an episode of the office where michael ask one of his employees to explain something to him like he was a 10 year old.

they guy does…michael gets a confused look and says…”ok, now explain it to me again like i was 5″.

i love that show.

carry trade = borrow in funding currency, go long in a “higher-yielding thing”

The latter could be a lot of things - bonds, foreign bonds, etc. In theory with currencies, it shouldn’t work but there’s theory and practice.

Well, if you’re short the funding currency, and it goes down, that’s great, you’re paying back with cheaper objects.

I thought it was the increasing carry-trade that _caused_ the nice, steady depreciation…

Ok, Faster…..could you try to explain it to a 3 year old with a learning disability? Thanks.

Doubtless there are some rednecks who could pull off the trifecta — Marlboro Miles, Copenhagen Lids, and Pamper Points.

Lol…

I dont have any kids.

So what’s the play here?

Short the cereal box tops and go long the green stamps?

“So what’s the play here?”

Well, if red and white are your favorite colors, and you like leather, go long Marlboro points. Those are pretty sweet jackets.

“Hey, nice jacket. I didn’t know you smoke?!”

“Nah, I don’t, I read the housing bubble blog, man.”

scdave, you are right about that. almost time to re-state.

Your right there.
Retirement soon. Primary res will be in Nev.
No taxes on retirement/401K.
Think you’ll see an exodus of firms as well.
Great weather can only account for so much.

Don’t ya have to win it @ work? Maybe… Madoff puts his ankle bracelet around it at night?

I’m gettin’ one of those!

85 is purchasing power parity. A bubble is when the price goes above realistic values. The Euro has been in a bubble for quite awhile. Eventually the Euro bubble will crack, but it might hit 1.75 before it does.

Ever tried parking $10M for a week, or a month somewhere?

No? Well, try it, and get back to show us how that works.

And nobody want’s to leave more than the FDIC limit in any one bank.

Exactly FPSS. Everyone assumes that cash is the ultimate save investment, but neglects to consider - where to put that cash? Cash is only safe and conservative from a gains vs. losses perspective, not from a safety perspective.

That’s why Tbills went down to 0. Seems to me that hypothetically they could go negative - significantly so even. Theoretically they’d still be positive relative to price deflation, and definitely positive relative to equity deflation.

In a deflationary environment (like this one) cash would be a very safe liquid bet. But like FPSS mentioned, it’s an issue of volume.

My other post will show up soon….it has a link to more info I dug up.

“And nobody want’s to leave more than the FDIC limit in any one bank.”

Lots of people - including myself - are not exactly comfortable with FDIC backing either, long term. FDIC just double their rates I think, or are proposing too. They have very little reserves. What happens when their reserve gets killed by the rapid increase in bank failures - both on the output and on the input side? Obviously there’s implicit government backing, but…

FDIC’s new rates for banks have come out and are effective Jan 1.

Beginning then, banks premiums go from 5 bips to 12 bips on interest bearing deposits and to 10 bips on non-interest bearing deposits. So the FDIC should be getting a huge infusion next year.

Prime now down to 3.25%, deposit rates holding steady and costs of FDIC insurance going up . . . ouch, not a good time to make money in the commercial banking biz.

Expect all other fees to climb, lending rates will detach from Prime, but still strong competition for good deposits. Even without loan losses, bank earnings are gonna s*ck for a year or so.

‘Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-12-17 08:38:09
Ever tried parking $10M for a week, or a month somewhere?’

Oh, yeah, all the time I try that. It’s quite tedious.

Hahahahahaha! * snort *
Yeah, whatEVer. I would love to be afflicted with that problem. This morning I got all excited when I hauled out and put on my giant puffy coat and stuck my mittened hand in my pocket and found…five (5) whole dollars in there! Awesome! I’m going to buy nourishing groceries and ointment for my chillblains* with it!

*Say, what are chillblains? I don’t actually know. I just like the sound of it. Also I’m not going to buy groceries with it. I’m going to buy candy, since I already have plenty of beer on hand. What else do I need? Nothing, that’s what.
Look at me! I’m really getting into this whole ‘learn how to lie’ thingie we discussed yesterday.

Nothing funny about chilblains if you have them.

http://www.foot-care.org/chilblains.php

“I am not here to claim victory”

I understand, I hope that was clear in my post. Please continue to share your conclusions.

Hahahaha!

–
Just to clarify I meant intellectual laziness (result of decades of brainwashing). Otherwise, Americans are the best trained economic slaves in history. No masters have asked or gotten more than America’s corporate and economic elite!

Americans ARE hardworking economic slaves.

Jas

“Americans ARE hardworking economic slaves.”

This is it! This is my rampage signal! Thanks, Jas!

ALL YOUR RICE ARE BELONG TO MUGGY

I’m still laughing about Jain’s lazy American comment from last week

And I missed it. Dang, dang, dang!!!

No masters have asked or gotten more than America’s corporate and economic elite!

The Japanese work much longer hours than Americans do, to the point where there’s actually a coroporate/government initiatives to have workers spend time with their families so they might consider having more babies. (Really!)

This is, of course, the same culture that gave rise to Kamikaze pilots and soliders could survive on a handful of rice a day.

But corporate America is wringing every last dollar out of those drones watching YouTube at work. LOL - Americans are *evvvvvil* and will take your rice when you least expect it.

” I EAT YOUR RICE!!!!! “

Probably called it an ‘idiot’ comment, because the story came out of Germany. Long known as a Bastian of conservatism & Libertarianism …Riiiiiight.

It was one of your brother socialists that came up with the plan, imagine that.

Which is different from your fascist heros in what way?

Ex, can you help me reconcile the idea that libertarians are to blame on par with the conservatives with the fact that your liberal leaders Pelosi, Dodd and Frank were tripping over each other to see who could hand out 700 bill to the richy-rich bankers you so adore?

The only people I’m aware of that were seriously opposing the handout to the financial industry were the libertarian-oriented, e.g. Ron Paul. Libertarianism is virtually unrepresented in our government yet earns your scorn for acts committed by the liberals you simultaneously worship.

Fascist- Libertarian? WTF? Get a dictionary, you can’t know what a libertarian is.

Beat the drum beat the drum. You go boy.

Just trying to have a rational discussion of your views. Why are you so shy to support them with something other than poorly thought out one-liners?

And don’t steal my “bang the drum” line.

He’s always got his panties in a wad (exeter, that is).

i realize…

It got you squealing pretty quickly.

it’s not difficult; just continue with your nonsense

Denny Crane would say Yes

Well, not you. Or anybody else on this board. But as a country, ho boy!

Dang, I wish my other posts would come through.

‘And knitting is a waaay more productive project than men. My socks are almost done.’

Ooooh! What color are they?

I’m not very good at socks. If only my feet were different sizes, then the socks would fit, but alas.
My favorite socks are a couple of pairs my great-gran knitted, using up all the oddments and loose yarn from her yarn bag. They are mighty colorful, and quite bulky. I use them as bed socks, and they keep my feeties warm AND entertained all night long. Which is good, especially now, because it’s COLD here. It’s like 30 degrees! I think I’ll eat a few neighbors, with butter, so I can bulk up and stop shivering, and my bones will stop rattling.
The sad thing is, growing up in Utarr 30 degrees was regarded as one of your balmier- type winter days, and a signal to break out the shorts so you could go get a suntan.
I suspect I’m becoming wus*sified.

Ooooh! What color are they?

They are a mixed color of light blue, dark blue, and tan called River Wash. They make these cool stripes as I knit.

I suspect I’m becoming wus*sified.

It’s the PNW effect - 30 degrees is cold, slugs the size of fruit are “normal”, and everyone drinks coffee beverages with names from much sunnier places. It rose to about 34 degrees here today and we were pretty close to gettin’ the shorts out. It certainly put a damper on the skiing.

I’m not very good at socks. If only my feet were different sizes, then the socks would fit, but alas.

I found this method on the internet where by using 1 giant circular needle, you can make two socks at the exact time that will come out exactly the same. (In my case, oddly) Here’s the website:

http://www.cometosilver.com/socks/2mlsocks_start.htm

>then does their laundry for them

But my mom told me that’s how you find out if she really is the one for you or not.

What’s that mom? Yeah, I want steaks for dinner and no veggie on the side, like I told you the last 100 times, OK? Bring it down when it is ready, I am too busy paying Wii.

Ok, Ok, I get the point you two are making. Still, while I’m positive that the idiot who is marrying Peterson has an inherent death wish, it is a fact that most if not all men are to a degree “projects”. I am a case in point. I was just beginning to work on my PhD when I met my future wife. We married and have been so for 21 years.
I have made progress in that time. I no longer drink milk from the carton, leave the seat up nor dirty socks in the living room, disappear for weeks at at time on “hunting trips” with my brothers, hang out at the girlie bars, and so on and so forth.

I guess my point is just this: Some “projects” are oriented toward success (I like to think most men are!), and some aren’t (Peterson and his ilk). How to tell the difference? Well, if I have to explain how to do that …

Roidy

I never could figure out why women want guys to put the seat down. Seat up “proves” the woman gets a hygenic use after the man has been in there.

A big “AMEN” to that, cougar.

That’s why I’m always dateless….I try to be a gentleman at all times. Bad boys don’t concern themselves with such trivialities.

Guess just have to burn all my liquid cash on liquor then.

LOL - sadly, you *can* attract women with this strategy. (I remember a roommate who was attracted more than 1 bar fly calling my husband of 11+ years “too boring and quiet”.)

However, the women in question will probably be clingy and nagging and unable to make any predictions whatsoever from previous patterns.

In order to get the perfection in female form that are the “gals” on the HBB, you will need to keep drinking and sleeping around to a bare minimum. Also, a large bank account is good. (But no house is required!)

“Guess just have to burn all my liquid cash on liquor then.”

Thanks for the reminder. I need some more Maker’s Mark!

I asked a girl out on a date this decade, she turned me down and said “lets stay friends.”

If I wanted more friends I’d go the friendship society or the Loyal Order of Moose. Don’t you just wanna slap a girl that says, “Lets stay friends”? lol

>Don’t you just wanna slap a girl that says, “Lets stay friends”

Actually I just bury them “let’s be friend” type in my backyard like all of my previous EX-es.

I am gonna need a bigger backyard.

Hoz,

On occasion I can keep ‘em interested for a week or so before I get those 3 magic words. That’s about it.

If I had a nickel every time I heard “let’s just be friends” I could repay half the TARP bailout.

Liquor is far less cruel.

Wait a sec - is there a Dog-given right for you ‘nice’ guys to get a schtupping from any female who catches your fancy? Didn’t think so. What’s ‘nice’, anyway?

‘Let’s be friends’ covers a lot of ground. I use it frequently to cover instances of indirect lechery hoisted by overweight middle aged married guys who intimate they stay with their wives for the sake of the dog. And ‘how nice it would be to get away for a few days’.

I claim a Constitutional right to refrain from engagement - even the casual line at the copier kind - with manipulative lechers. Actually, icy contempt is more my style, I have yet to carry this off with subtlety. At work, frankly, bland is good. Anything else is a catalyst for others’ drama.

You tell ‘em, jane!

—————-

No offense guys, but “let’s be friends” means that a woman actually likes you, just not in “that way.” Believe it or not, it’s a compliment because she is not outright dumping your a$$.

I’ll respectfully disagree, CA.

As hoz points out, if I just wanted another friend, I could just go to some bar and play darts with someone or get a puppy. It’s not really a compliment because what you’re actually saying is there’s something you DON’T like about us to even consider “that way.” Face it, “let’s be friends” is a brushoff.

And then more often than not you gals go chasing after someone who’s less attractive, less intelligent, less gentlemenly etc. etc. than us because they have that “certain something,” which is usually code for “Bad Boy.”

‘I’m fixed too, BTW.’

Reallyyyyy?! * Spits out frog, looks contemplative. *
So, you’re not actively evil. Awesome!