It’s Like A Hurricane, But The Lights Are On
The Miami Herald reports from Florida. “South Florida’s foreclosure crisis is creating unique hardships for renters in some apartment buildings. Unlike tenants of condos and houses, apartment dwellers rely on landlords to collect garbage, keep up the premises and make repairs. So when a landlord enters foreclosure, those services often stop, leaving residents without vital utilities and sometimes in unsafe conditions. They may be forced to move. Low-income renters sometimes have nowhere to go.”
“During the real estate boom speculators with little experience began snapping up apartments. Some investors wanted to flip but missed the peak and couldn’t sell, said Alan Ojeda, a developer of large-scale rental complexes and towers in Miami. Others built their business plans around converting rentals into condominiums. Failed condo conversions make up ‘the vast majority,’ of apartments going into foreclosure, said Still Hunter, a VP of investment in the Fort Lauderdale office of a real-estate services firm.”
”’The problem is widespread,’ Hunter said, adding in some cases rental income is not enough to cover loan payments or even property maintenance.”
“Residents in those buildings find ways to cope. Resident Shanika Rollins said she has to boil water to bathe. ‘It’s like a hurricane, but the lights are on,’ Rollins said.”
The Sun Sentinel. “Nancy Phillips was left with two West Palm Beach condominiums when her mother passed away in early November. The pain of losing her was tough enough, said Phillips, who lives in Poughkeepsie, N.Y. But the real estate decisions she faces now are wrenching as well. ‘I don’t know what to do, to be honest,’ she said.”
“Phillips inherited two units at Century Village Condominiums, including one purchased last year. It has a $40,000 mortgage and $15,000 in upgrades. Still, ‘our agent said we should put it on the market for $35,000, but not to expect to get it,’ Phillips said.”
“It will cost her about $9,000 a year to keep both units and fees could go up. A lot of condo communities are increasing fees to make up for cash-strapped owners who don’t pay and revenue lost to members in foreclosure. ‘And my mother also had a homestead exemption for her property taxes. I won’t have that,’ she said.”
“Karen Alexander, a probate attorney based in Palm Beach County, said about two months ago a client had to show up to the closing with a bank check for the buyer worth more than $10,000. ‘She wasn’t even sad,’ Alexander said. ‘She was happy not to have to pay for it anymore and to cut her losses.’”
The Ledger. “Polk County had a total 122 single-family home permits last month, falling nearly 52 percent on the year, according to area city and county building departments. The county has notched 2,100 permits through November, hovering near annual sums not seen here since the mid-1990s.”
“‘We’re still doing better than many parts of Florida. That’s the only ray of light I have to hang my hat on,’ said Scott Coulombe, director of the Polk County Builders Association.”
“Nationwide, November housing starts fell 47 percent on the year, the Commerce Department announced Tuesday. ‘What we’re looking at are dramatic declines to the lowest levels in home production that have been seen since the government started keeping track in 1959,’ said David Crowe, chief economist for the National Association of Home Builders, in a prepared statement.”
The St Petersburg Times. “Parkview Homes’ predicament is clear from the numbers: Its lenders are clamoring for repayment of more than $30-million in delinquent loans, but as of October the family-owned builder had sold only about 37 homes this year. In a pattern typical of many area builders, the housing slump blindsided Parkview after it invested in land in the formerly hot suburbs north of Tampa.”
“Times were good as recently as 2006. Sales that year peaked at 240. But just a year later they had tumbled to 67. This year has been even worse. Ross Puzzitiello, the son of the family who runs the Tampa operation, didn’t return calls from the St. Petersburg Times. His relatives run another branch of the company in Ohio.”
“A bunch of locally active builders, including Nohl Crest Homes and Smith Family Homes, have either gone out of business or filed for bankruptcy this year.”
The News Press. “As the housing market continues to slide, it’s going to be tougher to keep money coming in, Hovnanian Enterprises CEO Ara Hovnanian said in a conference call Wednesday. Hovnanian, which was Lee County’s biggest home builder until the market here crashed, reported a loss of $450.5 million Tuesday. The Red Bank, N.J.-based builder bought the assets of First Home Builders, a Fort Myers-based home-building company, in August 2005 just before the market collapsed. At its peak, First Home was putting up about 1,000 houses a month. Now the company is largely inactive as a builder in Lee County.”
“”Given the continued deterioration in the housing market, generating cash flow is going to be more challenging,’ Hovnanian said. The company won’t sell land if it can’t get a reasonable price, he said. ‘We will mothball the community. We’ll save that land until at such time as the market improves.’”
“In the long run, he said, ‘Home building is a cyclical industry that overbuilds for a period of time and then must underbuild.’”
“The now-defunct Huron River Area Credit Union collapsed because it ignored signs in 2005 that Lee County’s housing market was about to fall apart. The National Credit Union Administration came to that conclusion in a recent report.”
“The Ann Arbor, Mich.-based credit union had 39,000 members and $348 million in assets. But much of those assets were in construction loans made to home buyers in Lehigh Acres and Cape Coral. Most of those houses were being built by Hovnanian Enterprises.”
“Another credit union, Colorado Springs, Colo.-based Norlarco, also was taken over in 2006 by the credit union administration, largely because of bad debt problems in Lee County similar to Huron River’s. The county’s residential real estate market took a sharp downward turn after the median price of existing homes sold with the help of a Realtor reached its all-time high of $322,300 in December 2005. In October 2008, the last month available, the price had fallen by 56 percent to $141,400.”
“Huron River wasn’t alone in not seeing that crash coming, said Michael Timmerman, a Naples-based senior associate with Fishkind & Associates. ‘I think there’s a lot of people who didn’t see it coming,’ he said. ‘If you had never been through any kind of economic cycle, or if you didn’t know lending, you never saw this situation happening. There were a lot of warning signs, so if you were careful and watched what was going on, it got to where things didn’t smell good.’”
“Will this all happen again? ‘They’ll learn their lesson until things get great again,’ Timmerman said. ‘Then they’ll forget the lesson.’”
“Stephen Price is a Fort Myers banker who abhors the idea of taking a property for nonpayment of a mortgage. But now, he’s finding half of his foreclosures involve borrowers who could have paid but ‘just didn’t want to.’”
“Then there’s Don Gillions, who stopped making payments on his Cape Coral house and moved out only after trying twice to make a deal with the mortgage holder, writing in a letter ‘we want to pay everything that is owed.’ He calls the out-of-area lender, who he said ignored him, ’stupid and greedy.’”
“Both are dealing with issues of integrity. And the issue of ‘walking away’ from a mortgage is one of the most visible of our hard times. ‘A considerable contributor to the recession is the integrity issue,’ said Price, CEO of Florida Community Banks. ‘People who walked off from their mortgages.’”
“He cited as examples the real estate speculators who bought property at high prices, figuring a ‘greater fool’ would come along and pay even more. Price believes the 50 percent of his delinquent borrowers who walk away are those with whom he tried to work out a solution. They decline, he said, because ‘there is no stigma attached to it anymore.’ ‘When I started, people’s word was worth something,’ he said. ‘You’ve got to be very careful making a character loan today.’”
“Gillions, 53, and now living in a rented home with his family in Fort Myers, said the greed of his lender resulted in a ‘courthouse steps’ sale of the house for $150,000. He paid $368,000 for the house in 2006. Gillions is self-employed and the recession hit his storage business, so he decided he needed to get rid of the house in September 2007. He tried to deal with the lender before being late on a single payment. Last summer, he tried again. His payments, taxes and utilities totaled $4,400 a month.”
“‘Are we supposed to spend $50,000 a year on housing expenses, year after year, on a $368,000 loan on a place that was worth $150,000?’ he asked rhetorically.”
“Gillions said he has saved $50,000 since moving out.”
The North Fort Myers Neighborhood. “The Cape Coral-Fort Myers metro area claimed the highest rate of foreclosure activity during November, according to a report released this week from Realty Trac. Gary Tasman, executive director of the Cushman & Wakefield commercial real estate firm, said he thinks Gov. Charlie Crist’s plan to issue a voluntary moratorium on foreclosures Dec. 1 led banks to fast-track foreclosures in November, artificially inflating the state’s numbers.”
“While the moratorium will last 45 days and Tasman maintains foreclosure activity will be down the next three months, home prices may decline as a result of a plan by Lee County Clerk of Court Charlie Green to push more foreclosures through the system.”
“Green maintains the plan to fast-track foreclosures won’t deflate home values. ‘No, they’re going to hit the market anyway so why prolong it and drag out the situation?’ Green said.”
‘there is no stigma attached to it anymore…When I started, people’s word was worth something’
‘Are we supposed to spend $50,000 a year on housing expenses, year after year, on a $368,000 loan on a place that was worth $150,000?’ he asked rhetorically’
This banker is pretending that if flippers would just pay their bills, everything would be fine. But people will move toward the rational action over time. The exact same thing happened in Texas in the 80’s. Guys who were millionaires walked away from loans, and eventually it became conventional thinkng that you were dumb if you didn’t. I’m not making the moral case one way or the other, it’s just what happened.
‘Hovnanian said…the company won’t sell land if it can’t get a reasonable price, he said. ‘We will mothball the community. We’ll save that land until at such time as the market improves.’
You ride that mothball all the way down, AH!
Ben,
Right, if everyone “would just STHU and pay their bills”… all would be fine. Bankers also gloss over the fact that when they were writing bogus loans left and right there were no ethical issues ‘there’ but when someone can’t meet those mythical incomes, well… people just aren’t the way they ‘used’ to be!
Amen. And why is it that “morals” and the “sanctity of contracts” should only matter to THE LITTLE PEOPLE. Meanwhile, the banksters & wealthy elite can bend over the consumer/taxpayer and stick it to us whenever it suits them.
Double-standard economy:
Try to force the pig men to “honor” their contracts (or the law):
“You’re impeding market PROGRESS and INNOVATION!!! Do you hate free-market capitalism, you Commie rat-bastard?”
Try to force the average borrower to “honor” his contracts:
“I don’t care if paying that alligator means the little ones go without food or blankets this winter –you should have thought of that before you signed that SACRED covenant with your broker!”
HARM,
Absolutely. What I ‘will’ credit the folks at Patrick w/ as well as Ben’s crowd among others is raising awareness that we don’t have to take this lying down!
In my entire adulthood I’ve -never- seen such a rag-tag army of misfits have a greater impact. Even during the protests of the Viet Nam War! Rather being visualized as “saviors” congress and the administration has had to re-tool and re-work the Bail-Out time and again to quell an angry ( and surprisingly organized ) mob?
Our anger over the situation has given commentators of every stripe the perfect right to get on a soapbox and take issue w/ this. Everyone that participated in even the smallest of ways should be proud! Not THAT is “doing something for the kids”!
DinOR,
I have to admit, even I’m a little suprised (and proud) to see “NINJA”, “liar loan”, “too big to fail”, “privatize profits, socialize losses” and dozens of other phrases either coined or popularized on the bubble blogs becoming household terms.
Only problem is, the people are clueing in and starting to speak up, but Congress & Administration(s) are not listening much to us “little people”. Despite polls running strongly against AIG/Bear-Sterns/GSE bailouts, they went ahead and did it anyway.
Most of the time I feel more like the Chinese kid with the flag standing in front of that Tienanmen Square tank than I do like some revolutionary leader.
But what about the poor banks?!! The banks I say!!!
hey the banks got the bailout money after they provided loans to people they knew could not afford them. wall street got paid off and are using the funds to pay bonus and acquire other banks. yes, speculators are to blame as well. but, to tell you the truth if i had a home loan under by 100k or more and could walk with only my credit destroyed…well i’d do it. our system is so corrupt to the core…that i don’t feel any obligation to pay anyone. yes, i lived my whole life being honest and paying all my bills-and still am, but i don’t think the same after what i have seen. if you are greedy and take a risk and it pays off well then you win, if you are greedy and take a risk and it does not pay off then you or i should say the bank loses. all us bubble heads are the ones who did not win because in the end we pay for everyone elses losses and gained nothing by sitting on the sidelines! i’m counting on people walking to make my coming home purchase cheap so i say walk and drive all home prices down!
Woo-who! Go for it man!
“Your future is in Florida, fair white goddess of states.”
“‘Are we supposed to spend $50,000 a year on housing expenses, year after year, on a $368,000 loan on a place that was worth $150,000?’ he asked rhetorically.”
Come on! You’re the idiot who bought it.
I wager there’s a used-up HELOC somewhere in this story.
“Gillions, 53, and now living in a rented home with his family in Fort Myers, said the greed of his lender resulted in a ‘courthouse steps’ sale of the house for $150,000. He paid $368,000 for the house in 2006.
This greedy idiot rushed out and bought a overpriced POS as part of the global ponzi get-rich quick scheme, and now he calls the LENDER greedy. LMFAO
Well it wouldn’t surprise me if the lenders set up the auction to hook up a friend. I was talking to a co-worker and he was telling me about a relative… the auction happened 10 minutes before it was supposed to away from the courthouse steps, ensuring that a specific person got the property at a huge percentage below what it would get on the market. Remember, most people _are_ greedy, unless they are a hippy or something.
Note to Nancy Phillips,
Sell your mother’s condos as quickly as possible, even if you only get $5K per unit. Why continue to pay out $9K a year for the forseeable future, waiting for prices to go back up? In 10 years if you sell them both for $90K, you’re still worse off than selling for $10K (total) now.
Besides that $9K per year carrying cost can only go up.
Bill, Century Village condos never went above $50,000 to start…even in the boom times! This woman should get whatever she can out of it.
so if fl homestead is 50k if you buy under 50k do you get a yearly rebate ?
Why can’t she donate it to a homeless shelter or the city?
1 800 kars for kids….why not 2 condozes
Someone left a house to a church, and the church had no idea what to do with it. So a friend bought it cash for dirt cheap. He rents it out, it was immediately generating a good amount of money. He said he didn’t really want it but he couldn’t refuse at the price offered.
Why sell em and take the hit? Jingle mail seems to be the best approach.
Absolutely! This is a perfect example, I wouldn’t have even accepted “ownership” of these units from the will. I’m sorry for her loss, but she’s about to have another (very large) loss if she doesn’t walk away from these buildings.
““Phillips inherited two units at Century Village Condominiums, including one purchased last year. It has a $40,000 mortgage and $15,000 in upgrades. Still, ‘our agent said we should put it on the market for $35,000, but not to expect to get it,’ Phillips said.”
Seems pretty clear to me, send the keys to bank, and laugh at the 5K your parents got to spend on their (the bank’s) dime.
$4500/yr carrying cost per condo implies there’s no mortgage. She can sell them for SOMEthing. And she gets an appraisal that says the basis on the day she acquired them (the day her mother died) was higher, she can claim a short term (or long term if after 6 months) capital loss on her next tax return.
An interesting aspect of the bubble I hadn’t considered, people dying and leaving underwater RE to their heirs, what a freakin’ legacy, LMAO. Is it possible to REJECT an ‘asset’ left to someone by inheritance?
Do we have the rest of the story here? Did her mom have any other assets, or did she die with a negative net worth? Is this woman complaining about how much is own on the house while cashing the check for the rest of her inheritence? If her mom died with a negative net worth, I don’t think you’re obliged to assume liability for them.
Jim - that’s what I was thinking, too - that there is more to the story than this, but the papers want the boo-hoo effect so it’s easy to leave out the other details. I guess the upside is that articles like this keep pressure on prices to return to their long-term mean.
“You can decline the inheritance as long as your name is not on the deed and you are not named in what is called a “life estate deed,” which automatically transfers title upon death of the original owner, he said.”
I’d think that in order for there to be a valid “life estate deed,” the recipient has to sign something agreeing to it. You can’t force anyone to take a gift or inheritance if they don’t agree to it. Even the fabled White Elephant of India was accepted.
So this unfortunate woman didn’t perform due diligence, just like the Madoff screwees didn’t.
This woman sounds kind of stupid. She is not obligated under any circumstances to pay a loan her now deceased mother signed for unless she cosigned.
I mean no disrespect but I have a feeling she had $$ signs in her eyes until she got the bad news from the realtor.
“In the long run, he said, ‘Home building is a cyclical industry that overbuilds for a period of time and then must underbuild.’”
The Fed hyperstimulated the market in the early 2000s and burned the chair legs out from under the industry’s future customer base. Since they learned nothing from the last episode, they are trying it again, but it is unlikely to work, as you can only burn the house down once before you run out of fuel.
What did this fool think when he was putting up 1,000 houses a month in one county? For a while now, many of us have been saying the actions of the industry and the government were going to make the bust worse. Well, now the ‘worse’ is here.
The builders always overcompensate in both directions. In the late 1990’s there was a lack of good quality housing in Palm Beach County. Builders went insane and started to develop everything they could get their hands on. For the next 20+ years they’ll develop nothing and we’ll repeat the process.
Same thing happened with Orlando-area hotels and motels soon after Disney opened. Seemed like no one was checking out how many competing hotels were in the plans and that the planning commissions must have had some pretty dim bulbs on them at the time. Of course, they ended up with huge overcapacity and the oil-embargo recession wiped many of them out.
Bound to be bulldozers in store for many projects.
Witness Detroit. Abandonment to eyesore to seizure for back taxes to bulldozed takes a few years.
They should have made a national monument out of some of the towering blight, as once was proposed.
That’s good, because it will make more land available for the next wave of building once all the stimulus kicks into high gear.
“Residents in those buildings find ways to cope. Resident Shanika Rollins said she has to boil water to bathe. ‘It’s like a hurricane, but the lights are on,’ Rollins said.”
What? If the lights are on and the water is running why would she have to boil it to bathe? Gas water heater?
They probably have a common water heater (boiler). Most of these are apartments; they were never designed as condos.
Well either way… WTH were banks doing lending to people that had never owned an investment property in their lives enough money to run out and buy apartment buildings!?
These tenants ( many may have lived there for some time ) should be going after the bank, not the LL! Chrissakes, this is like serving alcohol to minors.
My ex-landlady (the weird gas bill lady) came from a wealthy family. In the year and 1/2 that we rented from her, I got the distinct impression that if her family decided to stop supporting her “side business”, her apartments would not cash flow.
She had a few highly irregular practices, the division of the gas bill and tenants shoveling common sidewalks to name two, that I think came from a direct lack of cash. (If you want to have tenants pay for their own heat, you put in meters. Asking more than 2 households to coordinate snow removal is a nightmare and usually landlords and associations just pay for it.) She got her stepfather to repair 40 year old windows for free instead of replacing them, etc, etc.
Commercial lending was also pretty insane for the last decade. In a residential house you can *almost* justify that whole warm fuzzy of ownership.
In my mind, the mania really shows up on investment properties where the numbers should have screamed that something was wrong. Probably my landlady would have not been able to own those buildings in a “normal” period as someone would/should have noticed that they didn’t generate enough cash for the price.
One of the minor reasons our left our last apartment was because the quadplex was designed for the landlord to pay for heat/hot water but the landlady insisted on splitting the bill 4 ways. (It drove me nuts to not be in control of my heat bill…)
If she had decided to not pay, the entire building would have been without heat and hot water.
Vermontergal,
You bring up a whole lot of reasons why this wasn’t a good idea. I’m sure everyone that now successfully… owns multiple multiple family residences didn’t -start- there!
I’m sure it was a gradual process and hard earned learning curve. It’s a business like any ‘other’ business! What in God’s creation let banksters believe these infestors could go from Freshman to Varsity in one season?
everyone makes sure they are wasting as much as their neighbor
a collectivism demonstration
Exactly, taxme…
I have a friend on the top-floor of a coop building that experiences this first-hand. With her heat OFF, she sometimes has to open a window in the winter to avoid it getting too HOT in the winter.
Shared heating bills means no one in the building sees any reason/incentive to turn down the heat…
Prime,
Not sure if it was taxme’s intent but there’s an under current to that as well.
With all the free/cheap/easy money that flowed thoughout the bubble, well… if everyone ‘else’ is burning through borrowed money..?
And that’s what “I” really saw. People building 2nd/vacation homes etc. for no other reason than the fact that money -was- available!?
Shared heating bills means no one in the building sees any reason/incentive to turn down the heat…
We turned down the heat anyway cause I hate wasting stuff. The only good thing about that setup with the heating bill was that if it got too high, I had the option of not paying her. (Or only paying what I thought was fair.) ((Which is yet another reason why a shared heat bill was such a crappy idea..))
If there was ever an object lesson on about why collective schemes don’t work, it’s a shared heat bill. (Although this lesson was completely lost on my feel-guilty-about-being rich-never-had-to-deal-with-lousy-neighbors-let’s-all-get-along-and-don’t-bother-me landlady.) This heating season we are free to live at 50 degrees and reap the financial rewards or live at 85 and not worry about creating a bill for someone else.
“Then there’s Don Gillions, who stopped making payments on his Cape Coral house and moved out only after trying twice to make a deal with the mortgage holder, writing in a letter ‘we want to pay everything that is owed.’ He calls the out-of-area lender, who he said ignored him, ’stupid and greedy.’”
So much for making gillions.
Writing as a stupid and greedy out-of-area lender who is financing one 3BR/2BA Cape Coral house, I must say I’ll be perfectly satisfied if the borrowers “pay everything that is owed.” Their second mortgage payment is due next week, and I don’t doubt that’ll be paid on time…but they haven’t yet paid the property taxes. The taxes were due in November, and the penalty for December or January payment of taxes is quite small, according to the borrowers. The tax is almost 5% (FIVE percent) of their purchase price. I suppose they could protest the assessment, but they’re still hoping to sell the house within a few weeks. Their nominal purchase price was $68K, seller Deutsche Bank. The flippers did minor repairs and put in a fridge, and they have the place listed for $85K. They’ve offered a bonus to any agent who can get it under contract by year’s end. They have quite a bit of room to reduce the price, but they don’t seem so inclined. Yet. I have posted before that my safety net is the idea that if I repossess the place eventually, I can use it as a winter residence (having paid $54.4K, the amount of the loan). I hope they pay the damn tax though.
“The tax is almost 5% (FIVE percent) of their purchase price.”
That’s rather mind boggling!
The idea that you can buy a home for 100K but then have it assessed at 300K is just.. Well.. Simply insane. If you buy it on the open market, you have SET the market value.
The tax assessments in this area (FL) are in for a massive shock over the next few years. They can keep this crap up for awhile (assessing a home sold for 100K at 300K) but, eventually, the tsunami of protested assessments will come in.
Frankly, it just shows how little the taxing bodies know about free markets.
“They can keep this crap up for awhile (assessing a home sold for 100K at 300K) but, eventually, the tsunami of protested assessments will come in.”
Everyone in new england has been saying the same thing for decades but it hasn’t happened.
Apparently the majority of people in New England enjoy paying high taxes. Good thing, they have some heavy increases on the way, and it won’t just be the evil rich folks. Contrary to what they may believe.
We’re all moving to S.C. and we’ll demand higher taxes there too.
Won’t work, our Libertarian Governor Mark Sanford is cutting spending and really pissing off the Yankee socialists that moved down here.
We are working on a fund to pack up these sour faced folks and ship them back your way(via greyhound). One of our States past advertising gimmicks was titled “Smiling faces, beautiful places” and these gloomy Gus sour pusses just don’t fit the bill. Perhaps you can arrange a special home coming and you folks can tax each other to death.
I recommend a full 100% percent income tax, that way the gubmint can take care of you, since ‘they’ know best.
Merry Christmas!
“Nothin’ could be finer than to be in Carolina in the morrrrrrning!”
The temperature hit 72 here this afternoon. Florida? Feh!
“The temperature hit 72 here”
What-a-coincidence?! ( It’s 27 here in Oregon! )
Yeah, like my conservative friend here in Oregon ( yes we -have- (1) ) likes to say:
“Once an area is deemed as being “too cute” it’s only a matter of time before the libs take over and in short order you won’t even recognize the place any more!”
It’s working very well. Taxes are going up up up!!!!
Bill in Carolina,
Nice temperature, where in Carolina do you live? I am moving the family there.
I had one of those conversations in passing with a lady in the northern part of the Tampa Bay area who owned outright a mobile home with land (not in a park) and sold it to a family that gave her a pretty hefty down payment. However, she is going through the tax payment issue right now, they haven’t paid the taxes and her mortgage with them gives her the right to foreclose and keep the down payment if they don’t pay the taxes. I realize the down payment must have been tempting, but she’s had nothing but trouble with her buyers. Late payments, non payment of taxes, etc. I think that down payment is going to get eaten up pretty fast in stress, legal action and fixing the place after it gets trashed.
Here is the update from Sarasota Florida
Just a few months shy of a scheduled groundbreaking, plans for the $1 billion Proscenium real estate project and its centerpiece Waldorf-Astoria Hotel may be unraveling.
The death blow could come today, when the Proscenium’s partners and financiers are expected to allow sales contracts on 18 land parcels, totaling seven acres at 400 N. Tamiami Trail, to lapse.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081217/ARTICLE/812170359/2055/NEWS?Title=Doubt_descends_on_Proscenium_project
Florida struggles with nation’s largest increase in food stamp recipients
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081210/ARTICLE/812100371/2055/NEWS?Title=Florida_swamped_by__food_stamp_need
Construction of the new University Town Center Mall featuring Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom and Macy’s has been put on hold until the economy turns around.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081207/ARTICLE/812070358/2055/NEWS?Title=Upscale_mall_will_be_late
The decision to delay construction of University Town Center, the much-anticipated mall featuring Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom, is not surprising to retail experts who say it may be the first of many such mothballings in this region.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081209/ARTICLE/812090342/2055/NEWS?Title=Luxury_mall_s_delay_could_indicate_more_to_come
Ben, when I click on “Fort Myers” (the next-to-last link in your post), I get the same article that one gets by clicking “now-defunct” (the third to last link). I don’t know if this is something you can correct.
I saw something heart-wrenching the other day. A retired lady, nicely dressed, came into this antique mall to try to sell some of her collectibles. Basically nice, but pretty much run of the mill stuff. Not much of a market for it right now. One piece, which I would have paid about $50.00 for last year, had no takers at $10.00. She was begging for someone to take it for $5.00. It was one of those scenes where you just had to look away. One of the employees at the mall was trying to palm her off on me. There was a combination of fear and desperation in the woman’s face, it seemed like even that $5.00 meant something to her. I would have taken it for that, except I don’t think I could even sell it for what I paid, right now. So I walked away fast, but that’s the second time I’ve seen something like this at the antique mall in the past few weeks. It hurts to see some of these people come in with their family heirlooms and collectibles, trying to get whatever money they can.
My mom was like this with ‘collectibles’ (although never desperate, bless her soul.) Like any retail good, unless you have your own outlet or are comfortable with online sales, you are reduced to buying retail and selling wholesale, which is… backwards. People who thing collectibles are ‘valuable’ in some way totally skip over this.
Mom was always bitching that she couldn’t get what her stuff was ‘worth’. (sigh)
I wonder if she had her retirement savings with Madoff.
Palmy - reminds me of a story I posted here 2-3 years ago, I think. During the 1973 recession, when utility bills went through the roof, I was near the cashier when a little old lady came in to pay her utility bill - I think it was about $110. She paid for it all with silver dollars. The woman behind here, a developer’s wife as it turned out, asked the gullible cashier if she could buy the coins for paper currency and the cashier agreed, probably so she didn’t have to fool with the bulk. I hope there is justice someday for the woman who bought those coins without telling the old lady that they were worth way, way more than face value. In fact, the buyer was rich; if I had had her wealth I’d have bought the coins and given them back to the old lady.
There’s a difference between getting a great deal and letting someone get totally screwed.
“There’s a difference between getting a great deal and letting someone get totally screwed.”
Amen, Chip. I think if I had to do it over again, I might have paid that lady her $5.00, since she seemed to need it rather than just trying to offload stuff. But I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. It’s been haunting me ever since.
“Polk County had a total 122 single-family home permits last month, falling nearly 52 percent on the year, according to area city and county building departments. The county has notched 2,100 permits through November, hovering near annual sums not seen here since the mid-1990s.”
Why are there any building permits issued at all? Aren’t there years of inventory with more being added every day?
I have asked this rhetorical question many times over the last year or so regarding the Florida situation. The apparent answer is that builders will build until they go bankrupt as long as some financial institution is floating a loan on some basis. I think these local financial firms are so vested in local builders fate that they seem to have little choice except to chase it down; the alternative is the same for them as for the builders, i.e. keep loaning and keep building or die.
Yes. Builders build because lenders lend. That is all they know how to do. It seems like the homebuilding industry right now is like a heroin addition, you know it is going to kill you but you can’t stop.
Do you think part of it may be that in many areas builders can continue to undercut used-house sellers in price on a brand-new copy of the used house? It lets them keep valuable subcontractors fed and in the area for when times get better. That said, I have no idea when times might get better here in Florida. The portable-property-tax bill will flog even more of the deficit onto anyone who would be a first-time Florida buyer. I think there is no way the politicians, who sneezed while this happened, will be able to resist pursuing a state income tax. That’s turn-out-the-lights day for me.
there is no way they could build for less than what is available on the market in Cape Coral yet right down the street from me I saw a new foundation being laid. I couldnt believe it. it actually made me mad.
I think the question is, “why don’t the local authorities exercise some common sense and stop issuing building permits when there’s an enormous overhang of unsold houses.”
(ha. HA. hahahahahaha.)
Same thing here in our city,they keep right on building, especially condos and we have hundreds of them sitting unsold. Some with million dollar price tags in a State with a median income of $36,000.00 and a climbing unemployment rate.
I know builders gotta build, but it’s getting really ridiculous now.
If they enforced excise taxes on Brazil, half of that land would still be in Florida hands growing fruit, mostly oranges. As it is, half the processing capacity is Brazilian-controlled, and I don’t think they live in the cheap subdivisions along the Ridge.
But It wasn’t all free trade.
Most would be tempted to sell for development if the proceeds could fund everything in the future from retirement to grandkids’ trust funds.Howsomever, If there is something that smells better than a citrus bloom, dunno what that would be.
A substantial percentage of the oranges for sale in Florida supermarkets are not grown here. It’s not uncommon to see navel oranges from South Africa, for example. Most of our crop used to be turned into orange juice; I’m not sure if that’s still true.
I don’t care if we don’t have a comparative advantage anymore, there’s a beauty to well-kept agricultural land that no subdivision or condos can come close to capturing.
I will not be out-ponzied! - H Paulson
Ah, Cape Coral…one of failed flipper Jeff’s prime ‘investment’ spots.
I wonder if he’s still throwing up in the shower.
I must have met either Jeff or one of his associates back in 2005, an investor from Sandyago, who said he LIVED in San Diego, but couldn’t afford to invest there any longer, so he invested in Florida.
That guy was a wreck!!!! He swallered the RE is an investment scam big time. It could have been a well excuted troll saga too.
hey ben - check out these articles I stumbled across…
https://www.quickenloans.com/mortgage-news/interest-only-and-deferred-interest-loans-can-you-afford-them-5163
https://www.quickenloans.com/mortgage-news/buying-a-home-is-free-er-than-you-think-5394
ha!
Here is the news from Sarasota Florida
Just a few months shy of a scheduled groundbreaking, plans for the $1 billion Proscenium real estate project and its centerpiece Waldorf-Astoria Hotel may be unraveling
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081217/ARTICLE/812170359/2055/NEWS?Title=Doubt_descends_on_Proscenium_project
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081217
Florida struggles with nation’s largest increase in food stamp recipients
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081210/ARTICLE/812100371/2055/NEWS?Title=Florida_swamped_by__food_stamp_need
The decision to delay construction of University Town Center, the much-anticipated mall featuring Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom, is not surprising to retail experts who say it may be the first of many such mothballings in this region.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081209/ARTICLE/812090342/2055/NEWS?Title=Luxury_mall_s_delay_could_indicate_more_to_come
From the original post:
“The now-defunct Huron River Area Credit Union collapsed because it ignored signs in 2005 that Lee County’s housing market was about to fall apart. The National Credit Union Administration came to that conclusion in a recent report.”
“The Ann Arbor, Mich.-based credit union had 39,000 members and $348 million in assets. But much of those assets were in construction loans made to home buyers in Lehigh Acres and Cape Coral. Most of those houses were being built by Hovnanian Enterprises.”
To which I say:
Many years ago, I had an account with HRACU. And I couldn’t say enough good things about them.
When I was out bicycling around the U.S., all I had to do was call them when I needed funds wired from my account so I could convert them into traveler’s checks. (I was traveling back in the days before the widespread use of credit cards.) No matter where I was, HRACU cheerfully complied with my request.
Maybe it’s just me, but the idea of a credit union “investing” its members’ money outside its own state seems wrong-headed. One of the hallmarks of credit unions when they first started was supposed to be their greater safety and conservatism. I remember belonging to one that gave me a credit card limit of just $500, when my credit was flawless. They said everyone gets $500 until they have a 1-2 two year track record of paying on time. Sucks when there doesn’t seem to be any really safe place to put your money and you have to depend on Leviathan to bail you out if your bank/CU fails.
Erratum:
Ben wrote: “Another credit union, Colorado Springs, Colo.-based Norlarco” which should have been: “Fort Collins, Colo.-based”
I’ve visiting both FC and CS, and to non-Coloradons they seem virtually identical and hard to differentiate. LOL
Having lived in CS, I concur.
Not if you’re sensitive to the subtle signs of being near military posts/bases.
“Both are dealing with issues of integrity. And the issue of ‘walking away’ from a mortgage is one of the most visible of our hard times. ‘A considerable contributor to the recession is the integrity issue,’ said Price, CEO of Florida Community Banks. ‘People who walked off from their mortgages.’”
Back when banks required 20%+ as a downpayment - this was not a big issue…
Dataquick for the San Francisco Bay Area is out today.
Bay Area median sales price is down 44% YoY, from $629K to $350K. San Francisco down 20%, from $814K to $648K. Santa Clara down 33%, Contra Costa down 50%.
And Marin down 28%, from $871K to $625K.
That is a hard landing for San Francisco — excellent news for friends there who have patiently sat out the bubble, waiting for home prices to become affordable again.
You should write that in a Christmas card and send it to LAY.
Marin is actually up then; the October median was $599K.
Mind you, the Marin numbers bounce about a lot. Maybe this is because the sales numbers are small, but I notice that median prices in Napa (with even fewer sales) seem to move a lot more smoothly.
I think Marin is a much more variable topography and thus has a much more heterogenous housing stock. It has everything from urban to suburban to rural to thick woods, flatlands to mountains, wetlands to bays to oceans, wealthy to middle to poor. And, add to all that that it is not heavily populated compared to other bay area counties. I think this is why it bounces around a lot more than Napa; Napa is comparatively homogenous.
IAT
“Karen Alexander, a probate attorney based in Palm Beach County, said about two months ago a client had to show up to the closing with a bank check for the buyer worth more than $10,000. ‘She wasn’t even sad,’ Alexander said. ‘She was happy not to have to pay for it anymore and to cut her losses.’”
Who wants to bet it was a forged check?
ORlando - things aren’t going so well in the timeshare industry. 168 laid off yesterday by Marriott and 300 laid off today by Wyndham.
http://www.wftv.com/news/18304558/detail.html?taf=orlc
http://www.wftv.com/news/18311146/detail.html
In 1973/4, when Orlando tourism was devastated by the oil embargo and the resulting recession, people walked away from their timeshares in droves and you could buy the best weeks for just the transfer fee. Smells like that might be comin’ around again.
Chip,
Pretty interesting ( and sad ) In truth ( I’ve looked into timeshares ) but in the end analysis, the transfer fee is about all I would be willing to pay.
D - I agree with that. And it might be easy to have a week at a decent timeshare complex just for offering to pay the owner’s maintenance fee for the year. Right now, there must be a lot of owners who don’t want to pay even the expense of getting to the place.
Well, U.S. Sugar held Florida’s feet to the fire, refused to renegotiate the price despite the rapid decline in asset values, and now we’re all on the hook for another $1.3 billion - and that’s before the state does anything, not to mention lost revenue from sending business packing.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/services/newspaper/printedition/wednesday/localandstate/orl-sugar1708dec17,0,3311036.story
This is megalomaniacal, misguided, and will almost certainly not improve the environment. Instead, it will displace thousands of poor, working people from the south Lake Okeechobee area into places like the ghettos of West Palm Beach. Charlie Crist - your man in Tallahassee determine to turn Florida into California with his reckless and criminal spending.
I can’t look at Crist’s picture without laughing. He shouldn’t even hold office in a Batman movie.
Does anyone think the heat being turned on the SEC in the wake of Madoff’s schemes will serve to prompt Fed or State regulators to take more seriously whistle-blowers’ complaints of fraud in FIRE? I expect appointees will be replaced at SEC with the change of administrations; that should probably do away with the need for any heads to roll among the career types.
I think it’s to frame the cause as lack of government oversite and bailout the losses.