December 28, 2008

There Was So Much Money To Be Made

The Atlanta Journal Constitution reports from Georgia. “State regulators issued a prescient warning to Georgia banks three years ago. If they kept lending mostly to real estate developers, the banks were told, they risked huge losses, or even failure, if the housing bubble burst. The warning, however, was just that. Coming from the Georgia Department of Banking and Finance, it carried no weight. Many banks merely broadened their pool of borrowers to include more developers. Others disregarded the admonition altogether.”

“State officials say they knew that certain banks were vulnerable to failure. Some had devoted 80 percent or even more of their loans to real estate development, by its nature a speculative venture. Rob Braswell, the state banking commissioner attributes Georgia’s disproportionate number of bank failures to the explosion of new banks that accompanied the region’s housing boom.”

“Dozens of financial institutions formed in recent years —- 21 in 2006 alone —- as Georgia ended up with more banking companies than California, Florida or New York, among many other states. Many of these new banks were created by developers for developers. Few wrote mortgages for individual homeowners. Instead, their lending enabled the construction of entire new communities, many of them sprawling across the outer ring of Atlanta’s northern suburbs.”

“Braswell doesn’t fault the banks for following this business model. Housing prices, he said, were still increasing, despite nagging concerns about inflated values. ‘It was very difficult for many banks not to become overreliant on these loans,’ he said, ‘when there was so much money to be made.’”

The Pensacola News Journal from Florida. “From the devastation on Wall Street to the struggling mom-and-pop store on Main Street, the epitaph for 2008’s economic meltdown might well read: ‘They never saw it coming.’ Where were the politicians, the federal banking regulators and the jet-setting CEOs when Wall Street’s gravy train jumped the tracks?”

“‘Looking back at 2008, I think the speed with which it (the financial crisis) hit was maybe not shocking, but certainly the most surprising thing to me,’ Pensacola banker Tommy Tait said. ‘It made us look back and say, ‘Were we really asleep?’”

“University of West Florida economist Rick Harper, says that Pensacola’s housing inventory — like the nation’s — is fundamentally out of line with the underlying population dynamics. ‘We’ve had a huge overbuilding of the housing sector,’ Harper said. ‘There was just too much investment in residential structures. And the only way that’s going to get back into a demand-supply equilibrium so that prices can begin to appreciate, so that builders can begin to see there is a market out there, is when population catches up with the supply built. If we don’t stimulate population growth, based on our existing growth, it’s going to take 10 years or more to recover from this recession.’”

From Florida Today. “Melbourne officials estimate that one in every 10 homes is abandoned or has been foreclosed on. The properties are as diverse as a mobile home in Colony Park, which is on the north end of the island, to an unfinished $500,000 custom home less than a block from the barge canal. Its owners abandoned the unfinished house months ago, owing money to the building contractors as well as to the bank.”

“‘I’ve got a jungle surrounding my house,’ said Ed Hunter, who lives next door to an abandoned house on Merritt Island. ‘Could be a bobcat hiding back there.’”

The Naples News. “A few months ago, Park Shore beach was one of the only spots in Collier County that had showed resistance to price reductions over the past two years. ‘Park Shore was a bastion of price stickiness,’ said Ross McIntosh, founder of The Bidder’s Broker in Naples. The mantra, he said, seemed to be ‘if you want it you are going to have to pay my price because I’m not going to accept less.’”

“The median price for homes sold with the help of a Realtor in November fell to $194,000 in Collier County, excluding Marco Island, according to NABOR. That was down nearly 40 percent from $325,000 in the same month a year ago.”

“The seller of penthouse 102 paid the developer $4,350,000 for the unit and had nearly two years’ worth of carrying costs that he didn’t recover. ‘Effectively, the investors in that penthouse unit in Aria lost money,’ McIntosh said. ‘That is a new phenomenon on Park Shore beach. I think it’s a harbinger of future pricing behavior in Park Shore.’”

“Uncertainty remains for WCI Communities as the developer reaches the halfway point in its reorganization efforts. The Bonita Springs-based home builder, failing under the weight of about $2 billion in debt, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in August.”

“Earlier this month, billionaire investor Carl Icahn and his affiliates dumped most of their WCI stock, about 6 million shares in exchange for two cents total. He had paid an average of about $16 a share in 2007. Also in 2007, Icahn had offered WCI $22 per share in a move to take over the builder. WCI rejected that offer.”

“‘I think it presented a tremendous loss for him and he decided to remove himself and look forward to taking a huge write-off on capital gains,’ Jack McCabe, CEO at Deerfield Beach-based McCabe Research and Consulting, said of the two-cent transaction.”

The St Petersburg Times. “High-profile developer Grady Pridgen and former NBA player Matt Geiger are delinquent in their property tax payments, both squeezed by the grinding recession. Three years ago, Geiger said, lots at his planned Bison Creek Estates project sold for $800,000. Now the former Miami Heat and Philadelphia 76ers player said there are no buyers, even though he has slashed prices by half.”

“‘It’s just tough on my company right now to make it,’ Geiger said. ‘I’m trying to bust my tail to do everything I can to move property.’”

The Sun Sentinel. “The lure of a big bargain continued to drive Broward County home sales in November. Buyers scooped up 507 existing homes, a 26 percent increase from a year ago, the Florida Association of Realtors said. Year-over-year sales have risen every month since July. Prices keep falling and now are what they were in 2003. The median price plummeted 34 percent last month, to $229,100 from $348,100 a year ago.”

“Broward’s condominium market is seeing a similar trend. November sales increased 3 percent from a year ago, while the median price slid 34 percent, to $109,400 from $166,700. Many of the homes and condos changing hands are distressed properties owned by lenders or desperate sellers.”

“‘At a certain point, prices get so low that people think they’re irresistible,’ said Brad Hunter, a housing analyst in West Palm Beach. ‘But in a sense, these increased sales is a sign of weakness in the housing market rather than a strength.’”

“Bob Tucker recently bought a five-bedroom South Florida house in foreclosure for $743,000, a $250,000 discount off market value in the neighborhood. Tucker said he spent $100,000 on renovations after the previous owners gutted the kitchen and damaged other parts of the home. Despite the hassle, including tough negotiations with the bank that owned the property, he’s glad he made the deal.”

“‘There were a lot of sleepless nights,’ said Tucker, a public relations director and the married father of four who moved here in April from Southern California. ‘But I think it’s a good investment because this is such a desirable area.’”

The Herald Tribune. “In 2007…Joe Long, a New Jersey entrepreneur, tried to raise $700 million to buy 1,500 homes from Southwest Florida builders and developers for about 70 cents on the dollar. But Long was unable to raise to the cash from hedge funds and other institutional investors. He got in the game much too early and was offering too much money for properties, real estate experts say.”

“In Southwest Florida, it is people like Elizabeth and Michael Thrasher, Michael Averbuch and Peter Arguelles who have started buying. The Thrashers have spent $11.6 million to buy seven properties on Anna Maria Island since April. Averbuch spent hundreds of thousands more to buy condos and raw land in North Port and Sarasota. Arguelles has paid $1.6 million to buy 19 houses in Sarasota and Manatee counties.”

“‘If you can buy houses where the cash flow more than covers the operating costs, why wouldn’t you buy?’ Arguelles said. ‘We are able to do this now. We can buy houses for less than the freakin’ cost of nails and wood. If you can buy dollars for dimes, then you should buy all you can.’”

” Joseph Kandel is eager to buy. The real estate firm he works for is seeing investors and end users close on 35 bank-owned properties every month and another 25 short sales, in which buyers negotiate with banks to buy properties for less than what banks are owed by the former owners. Kandel’s problem is money.”

“Though he bought and sold five properties for $440,000 more than he paid during the boom, his fortunes changed in the bust. He has defaulted on four loans totaling $2.4 million since the beginning of the year. But that apparently is not stopping him from going ahead with his public offering.”

“‘I was flipping and made a nice living for while, but I got caught with my pants down like everyone else,’ Kandel said. ‘The problem now is there is just too much inventory and not enough end users. So the same investors who were buying up properties during the boom are needed to help with the resurrection.’”

“In his registration statement, Kandel does not oversell his company’s prospects. He clearly points out there is a good chance 1st & 10 will have to punt. ‘Since the incorporation of 1st & 10 Properties, we have not generated revenues. With limited financial resources, we may not be able to continue as a going concern,’ the registration statement says.”

“Despite those very strong negatives, Kandel remains optimistic. ‘We’re at the bottom,’ he said. ‘Anyone who knows real estate knows this is a great time to get in.’”

“Four counties — Sarasota, Charlotte, Lee and Collier — are projected to account for more than 40 percent of the erosion in Florida’s tax base in 2007 and 2008. While the state’s tax base is projected to shrink by $120 billion, these four Southwest Florida counties will account for $52 billion of that hit.”

“The area relies on the more cyclical tourism and construction industries, which have sunk with the real estate market, said Sean Snaith, director of the University of Central Florida’s Institute for Economic Competitiveness. ‘So when the boom went bust, there was no safety net to fall back on,’ Snaith said.”

“While governments will struggle, it will be worse for homeowners, (consultant) Jack McCabe said. Southwest Florida suffered from ‘false appreciation’ during the boom, a mixture of speculation and real estate fraud, he said.”

“That led to the market being overbuilt and so many vacant or available properties that no one can predict when demand and supply will again be in balance. ‘People will be making high payments on values you may not see for years and years to come,’ McCabe said.”

“The historic drop in interest rates will help some people whose adjustable-rate mortgages are scheduled to reset in the near future, enabling them to remain in their homes and avoid foreclosure. John O’Neill, CEO of Sarasota-based Century Bank… and others noted that the rate drops have done nothing to address a fundamental stumbling block in the housing market: Most people who sought ARMs during the boom did so with the idea of refinancing or selling their homes before their mortgage rates reset to higher levels.”

“When the real estate market ended its historic climb with a swoon, many owners found they owed more on their houses than they were worth. They began to ask whether it made sense to keep making payments. ‘Half of the problem is interest rates and the other half is value,’ said Peter Lyddy, a mortgage broker with Gulf Coast Mortgages of Southwest Florida. ‘If people don’t have the wherewithal to stay with the market and wait for home values to rise, then a drop in interest rates is not going to help them.’”

“The problem with the adjustable rate mortgages offered during the boom is that they were issued to people with more of an investor mentality than a homeowner mentality, said Jack McCabe. Those people were expecting their homes to appreciate in value. When the opposite happened, they wanted out. ‘Many will default regardless of how low rates go,’ McCabe said.”

“The fundamental attitudes toward home ownership have changed and far more people are willing to default on their mortgages than they were ten years ago, O’Neill said. ‘There is not as much sentimental attachment to a home,’ he said. ‘People see it more as an investment, and if the investment has gone bad, they are willing to walk.’”




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103 Comments »

Comment by Quirk
2008-12-28 10:57:14

“‘It made us look back and say, ‘Were we really asleep?’”

Yes, yes, you were asleep. Enjoy being awake now?

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-12-28 12:14:06

It’s not so much that they were asleep. It’s more like the NAR Kool-Aid served up with a generous portion of greed turned them into walking carrion.

Comment by Pullthetrigger?
2008-12-28 16:28:03

“In Southwest Florida, it is people like Elizabeth and Michael Thrasher, Michael Averbuch and Peter Arguelles who have started buying. The Thrashers have spent $11.6 million to buy seven properties on Anna Maria Island since April. Averbuch spent hundreds of thousands more to buy condos and raw land in North Port and Sarasota. Arguelles has paid $1.6 million to buy 19 houses in Sarasota and Manatee counties.”

Thank God for knife catchers, or chain saw catchers, as it were. Otherwise there would be no order in the decline. Step right up!

Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 17:04:43

They had to have ponied up their own money for those purchases. No bank in December 2008 would lend against that collateral.

The interview of Mr. Kandel in the Herald-Tribune is remarkable. Some of the statements in his securities registration are so disconnected from any foreseeable future that they sound like a pitch to invest in the fountain of youth, or the philosopher’s stone. His quote about people who are not helping out with his financial predicament: “unfortunately, we’re running into resistance from spineless people who have money but no vision.”

My resistance is the only reason I’m presently solvent, you dumb son of a b****.

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Comment by CA renter
2008-12-29 01:21:28

Amen!

The market will not bottom until all these losers are wrung out of the market.

The bubble is still alive and well because: “real estate will make us rich!”

 
 
 
 
Comment by beosguy
2008-12-28 21:46:35

The NAR and their cronies are still walking free without any regard from state or federal regulators. We can talk about all the “Alt A” and “Subprime” borrowings and try to blame Wall Street or Banks.. but the mainstreet local, state, and national realtors associations were making the worst claims to the buyers (and public at large)…. ” buy now or be priced out forever… home prices never go down… etc etc etc…”

It ticks me off no one is going after the realtors.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-12-28 11:01:53

‘Earlier this month, billionaire investor Carl Icahn and his affiliates dumped most of their WCI stock, about 6 million shares in exchange for two cents total. He had paid an average of about $16 a share in 2007.’

‘Bob Tucker recently bought a five-bedroom South Florida house in foreclosure for $743,000, a $250,000 discount off market value in the neighborhood. Tucker said he spent $100,000 on renovations after the previous owners gutted the kitchen and damaged other parts of the home. ‘There were a lot of sleepless nights,’ said Tucker… who moved here in April from Southern California. ‘But I think it’s a good investment.’

I have mentioned before that IMO, speculation has a place in every market. It provides liquidity, etc. If billionaires and knife catching Californians want to roll the dice, so what? But it should have its natural limits.

The problem as I see it, is the government is making this post-bubble situation much worse than it need be. One, by not allowing the full financial punishment to be dealt as hard as it should. And two, by encouraging even more speculation by average citizens. If over investment and speculation were part of the problems caused by the housing bubble, how can more of the same be productive?

Comment by Tim
2008-12-28 11:35:26

Has any elected official admitted that prices are still way too high and need to fall to 2000 prices in most areas to get things back to a normal equilibrium? If you either can’t, or refuse to, identify the problem, you stand no chance of proposing a sound solution. We have a system of government where votes are more important than results, coupled with a mostly ignorant and selfish population. Hell I dont even really mind self-interest, but most ppl cant even comprehend what is in their best interest and are just begging for more rope to hang themselves.

Comment by Pullthetrigger?
2008-12-28 16:33:42

If they did, the moron lobbyists at NAR work toward them not being reelected. Always follow the money. Remember: Suzanne has researched this!

 
Comment by beosguy
2008-12-28 21:53:12

Only a handfull of people have come out and said so… Economist Chris Thornburg and Robert Shilling still expect further price reduction. Couple brainless economist who are taking credit from the media for “seeing” the bubble like Paul Krugman keep stating we need to lower interest rates and stop the forclosures. Neither lower interest rates or stopping FC will end price declines.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-28 12:04:14

“And two, by encouraging even more speculation by average citizens.”

Think of this as an affirmation of bad policy. The alternative would be repudiation of bad policy, including admission to having promoted it.

 
Comment by gal
2008-12-28 13:14:05

Dear Ben, I think the problem is in cultural level, somehow America and Americans really believed that America is that “Wonderful and Rich” country where even illegal immigrants are able to buy houses for $600000.00, people are able not only can have expensive houses but more expensive “toys” since being an American from some point means to be rich and… nobody cares to read more , to “keep up with Jones es” “home library” but not their riches… That is why our economic “gurus” are still trying to “correct” the America’s image, not the mistakes. If America want to keep up with Joneses, they have to look for Scandinavian countries as a real wonderful countries, where people live their simple lives… We have to go back and read Henry David Thoreau to create real American values, to create real new America and American Dream…

Comment by Muir
2008-12-28 14:41:53

gal,
“I think the problem is in cultural level, somehow America and Americans really believed that America is that ‘Wonderful and Rich’ country….”
-
It is a religious belief.
Literally.
I’m not trying to be rhetorical.
-
Millions believe that this is “God’s country,” fully deserving of riches.
So much more I could say… but I’ll keep quiet.

 
 
Comment by CA renter
2008-12-29 01:23:05

The problem as I see it, is the government is making this post-bubble situation much worse than it need be. One, by not allowing the full financial punishment to be dealt as hard as it should. And two, by encouraging even more speculation by average citizens. If over investment and speculation were part of the problems caused by the housing bubble, how can more of the same be productive?
————————

Agree!!! And this is why some of us were “hand-wringers” a year or so ago. Bailouts are BAD business, no way around it.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-12-28 11:10:30

‘State regulators issued a prescient warning to Georgia banks three years ago. If they kept lending mostly to real estate developers, the banks were told, they risked huge losses, or even failure, if the housing bubble burst.’

Here’s a time capsule moment for really, long time HBBers. Remember back when we didn’t have much to hang our hat on except pointing out that plans to sell half million dollar floating condos on the Mississippi were a bit unrealistic, and that loaning people money to buy 15 houses might not end well?

In early 2005, faced with a media that did nothing but sing the praises of how everyone was getting rich, I started combing through FDIC statistical releases. I stumbled upon these speculative RE loan percentages and posted them often. And the FDIC would downplay the danger with every release! It was all right there for anyone to see, which IMO is a timeless lesson of this mania.

Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 11:38:07

‘Three years ago, Geiger said, lots at his planned Bison Creek Estates project sold for $800,000.’

Betcha there are no bison. Oh, and I betcha there is no creek, either.

Man, what I’d really like to see is some accurate naming henceforth on the part of those wretched developers and builders. For instance: ‘Missing Forest McCrapville Estates’, or ‘Paved Over Frogs and Fish Villas’. Those’r names with some truth to them. I approve of the truth.
Also, here’s another good idea, let’s kill all the developers. I mean, that would be the best solution, I believe, and if it isn’t, well, jeeze, it couldn’t hurt, right?
Right.

Comment by bink
2008-12-28 12:13:11

Spending time with family seems to have turned you a bit murderous. Just a bit.

Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 12:24:13

And to think, I am known to be the reasonable, kindly, least-likely -to-shoot-on-impulse one.

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 13:06:30

I was introduced to Mr. Geiger during his NBA days, when we both happened to be at the same nightclub in Tampa and I got to see firsthand the posse and groupies that surround a pro athlete. That guy built the equivalent of Michael Jackson’s ranch for himself, only in Pinellas County. And he wasn’t even that good a player!

Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 13:25:56

More on his manse, which has a pool with a central lava pit, forty televisions, a pizza oven, a DJ station and dance floor, and a 5,200 square foot guest house. Despite a principal residence containing 28,000 square feet, there “[wa]sn’t suitable space for a playroom” for his kids. Also, suitably ditzy quotes from Tampa’s annoying Toni Everett and a possible explanation of the buffalo moniker:

Geiger enjoyed a putting green and a man-made lake stocked with 2,500 bass and had a personal herd of livestock that has included 12 buffalo, 11 Watussi, two donkeys, a miniature horse and one cow on the 40-acre estate.

http://tinyurl.com/2fe9q8
http://tinyurl.com/55veu5

The best quote is from the second article: “At some point in the millenia to come, after our civilization has long since passed, Geiger’s home is going to be excavated and aliens will believe he was our god.”

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Comment by saladsd
2008-12-28 15:51:28

Right about now it seems a book like Great Gatsby or film like Citizen Kane would be in order, cautionary tales of misplaced values & pure narcissism. I don’t mind folks being rich– i have well-healed relatives in the midwest who drive 10 year old american cars and live in modest homes and worry if your long distance phone call to them goes over 5 minutes–what I can’t stand is the pathetic “Nouveau Riche Gone Wild” mentality.

 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-12-28 13:17:12

Olygal, I love your truth-in-naming rules; and you’re right that whatever they name it means that there is nothing like that there, if there ever was.

Comment by mikey
2008-12-28 13:47:14

“‘I’ve got a jungle surrounding my house,’ said Ed Hunter, who lives next door to an abandoned house on Merritt Island. ‘Could be a bobcat hiding back there.’

Relax Ed, it’s NOT a bobcat hiding in your jungle.

It’s merely a very large herd of living room rug ELEPHANTS, with pent-up energy, about to Stampede and Stomp everyone and everything in sight.

You’re gonna need a bigger gun to kill this problem Mr Hunter :)

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Comment by Chip
2008-12-28 17:51:42

‘Could be a bobcat hiding back there.’

ROFL - raise the “City-slicker Special” flag in front of this fella’s house. You don’t mean a real-live 10-foot-high, man-eating, fire-snortin’ bobcat, do ya? Holy smoke, Batman! Heck, let’s call up what’s left of our National Guard who aren’t deployed in the Middle East risking their lives when other countries with positive balance sheets should be sending their younguns and we’ll corner that sucker and hire a FedEx car-hauler to take it to a zoo. (FedEx has top-notch car-haulers, BTW)

Buddy, if you can’t handle the thought of a bobcat being near or around your house in Merritt Island (a great place to enjoy a good variety of traditional Floridian natural surroundings), you belong back wherever you came from. You sho’ ‘nough don’t come from around here.

 
 
 
Comment by Bungalowball
2008-12-28 13:45:15

I think the normal convention is to name the development after whatever wildlife they destroyed to make the project.

Comment by oxide
2008-12-28 16:01:27

You’re lucky. Around here we have to endure the verbal equivalent of a Kincaid painting, complete with lanterns and stagecoaches and bubbling brooks and roly-poly hills. Or they’ll use names dilberately lifted from European countries. (Ireland and Scotland are favorites.) It’s a pain to fill out address forms, the names are so long.

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Comment by Chip
2008-12-28 18:26:40

Oxide - your post reminds me of a neighborhood near Birmingham, AL that we looked at - briefly. Its name is Ballantrae and as I recall every house in the very large subdivision had the same general faux-Scottish-house elevation. Seemed a shame that in a neighborhood of half-mil houses, they were all so alike.

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2008-12-28 14:11:16

“Betcha there are no bison. Oh, and I betcha there is no creek, either. Man, what I’d really like to see is some accurate naming henceforth on the part of those wretched developers and builders.”

And I’ll wager and win that there are no damn estates either.

I have the same serious peeve about the names for these architectural blights. Do these people even know what a friggin’ estate is? Have they not wandered away from their own backyard far enough to understand and take in what an ESTATE really is? And farms is another favorite. It’s a cheesy label that appears to appeal to the clueless. They hang a sign outside of there shack, “sunset farm” or some such stupidity yet not one bit of evidence there is any farming conducted on the premises. Not a piece of equipment, not a single heiffer, bull or hen, etc.

All that matters is image for the Developer/REIC and their clueless customers.

 
Comment by slb
2008-12-28 14:31:43

Exactly Olympiagirl, far too many Homo sapiens on the planet.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 11:51:24

Are you really a vegetarian, Ben? You look too healthy and strapping.

No offense to vegetarian HBBers. It’s just that growing up in my family, here in the red rocks of Utarr, there were the 4 food groups: poached deer, poached elk, apples, and milk.
Oh, how I adored school lunches. They came with those tasty green leafy things. Ahhhh….

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-12-28 12:02:18

Yes, I’ve have been for a long time. I stay healthy doing things like I am today; shoveling snow. And after two winters of it, I have come to a conclusion. Shoveling snow is awful, mindless work. I would go snowshoeing in the forest instead, except that if I don’t get this stuff up, it will turn into ice and sit there until April.

BTW, I don’t know if you saw my previous comment, but I really like the handmade xmas card you sent!

Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 12:30:18

but I really like the handmade xmas card you sent!’

Really?! Ben, I’m so pleased! You know what, I’m going to go drink all the beer out of an aluminum can and then rummage in the Sunday ads for materials and begin on your NEXT card! Just for yoooooo.

Oh, and that reminds me, I was going to pore over all the lovely lovely threads I missed when I was driving here on ice and snow, all busy-like with th e incessant screaming with fear, praying and crying to Jeebus that was going on.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-28 12:33:02

Driving on ice is certain bring on the urge to pray.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-28 12:31:02

“You look too healthy and strapping.”

One farmer says to me, “You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes nothing to make the bones with;” and so he religiously devotes a part of his day to supplying himself with the raw material of bones; walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle.

–Henry David Thoreau–

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-12-28 13:14:58

That reminds me of something. Years ago, I met a french/gold-dealing vegetarian who said that humans weren’t meant to eat meat. He said that of the animals, all who lapped water were meat eaters, and those who sipped were vegetarians; except humans. I don’t know if that’s true, but it makes ya think!

I never knew what healthy was until I made the change, but this is where my mom would chime in. She raised 7 healthy children, and we almost always had meat and veggies on our plates. She would say, ‘Ben, now you’ve done stopped preachin’ and gone to meddlin.’

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Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 17:09:13

He said that of the animals, all who lapped water were meat eaters, and those who sipped were vegetarians; except humans.’

How about those who lie on their backs singing and gargle their fluids of choice? What kind is those kind? Tell me right away, ’cause this is not a rhetorical question. Does that mean I should eat everything?*

*Too late.

 
 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-28 16:29:54

Not to quibble here, but the farmer was right. Thoreau is missing an extremely basic point of biology (however thoughtfully stated.)

The vegetable-made bones are the result of no less than *4 stomachs* in an oxen’s guts. They spend a tremendous amount of time eating and digesting their food, including chewing their cud. In short, a cow is mostly stomach (quite literally.)

Humans on the other hand, have a shortened digestive system of your average carnivore. Forward looking eyes, only 2 sets of teeth ever, teeth structure that is far more carnivorous than herbivore. (It’s sort of a hybrid in deference to our fruit eating ancestors, but I digress.) We are also unable to synthesize some basic vitamins, in a similar situation to most cats. In other words, we share a whole lot more biology with the average cat or dog than cow. Our nature screams “carnivore”.

Before I figured out Bio 101, I went on a vegatarian diet for my health. I have never been so fat, crazy or miserable. (Now I’m down to just crazy.) Seriously, my diet lacked a great deal of animal based nutrients. Even today I must supplement with vitamin D and fish oil to keep on an even keel.

I never argue with anyone who goes on a vegetarian diet and tells me they do well on it. Those of middle-eastern descent, especially, I think are prone to do well on those. (They have been farming as culture for the longest amount of time.) However, I’d be wary of it for the “average” human. I personally do my best on nothing but meat,eggs, cheese and and vegetables. Grain products only ask for trouble in my case.

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Comment by SUGuy
2008-12-28 19:28:30

My smoking hotieeeeee who by the way is highly educated equates being a vegetarian to kindness towards animals as she claims to be an animal whisper. To please her I am an on again off again vegetarian. Beans and legumes have lots of proteins and I can solve the tiredness issue with a regular workout, Americans consume way too much protein which causes more diseases in my opinion.

 
Comment by MidnightSunshine
2008-12-29 12:26:52

Human beings are omnivores. We can perfectly healthy on either a balanced vegetarian or balanced carnivorous diet.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-28 15:31:30

Olygal —

My daughter declared herself a vegetarian half a life time ago, at the ripe old age of seven. My SIL, who occasionally receives direct revelations, informed my daughter that it would not be possible for her to make it into the Celestial Kingdom w/o eating meat. My daughter puts no stock whatever into this admonition.

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-28 16:33:35

PB - I know this is tongue in cheek - but I’d encourage your daughter to be careful of anemia especially and to make sure she’s getting enough fatty acids and bioavailable iron. Those kinds of problems show up in both tiredness and painful periods at her age. (Most of my menstrual problems disappeared on a meat/vegetable diet.)

Like it or not (as I mention above), we are mostly carnivores. :(

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Comment by Professor Bear
2008-12-28 22:17:26

Much appreciated. I am not entirely sure we were either meant to eat cows or to drink their milk, though…

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-29 05:44:55

Americans consume way too much protein which causes more diseases in my opinion.

No, we consume far too much processed junk food. Carnivores don’t consume too protien - we live off of it. It’s our fuel - the very backbone of our existance.

Heart disease can be linked to excessive carbohydrate intake based on too many grain products. Carnivorous omnivores do not eat bread and pasta or beans/rice (which is a low quality). If you could hunt or gather it, that’s what a human eats.

I’ve been there, bought the T-shirt on vegetarism and done and lot of reading on the subject in attempt to figure out what went wrong. The suggestions that Americans eat “too much protein” is based on the claims of animal rights activists and precious little real science.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-29 05:50:51

PB - Drinking milk is a “new” phenomena diet wise.

However, when you find early humans, you also find the bones of big animals. We drove more than 1 species to extinction. Not only are we adapted to eat meat, it is mostly big game and high fat. We are 2 million year old hunters who have been farming for 10K of those. Bones of farming humans are short and disease ridded compared to their hunter gather counterparts.

Vegatarism can be done right in a human but it begins by acknowledging our primarily carnivorous nature. It takes more than saying “no animal products”.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-29 06:00:38

PS - Sorry PB - I know I make people uncomfortable with this stuff. I bought all the lines about vegetarianism and suffered the consequences. :(

I think it’s hard to make peace with the idea that most of the species run best on a meat based diet. It’s easier to think we’re being “kind and gentle” by eating things that don’t moo or squawk.

(Vegetarianism is a disaster if you a pro-plant, like I am :) )

Again, sorry, - it’s just one of those subjects that bring up a lot of emotions and I hate to see anyone suffer.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-12-28 16:37:56

“My SIL, who occasionally receives direct revelations, informed my daughter that it would not be possible for her to make it into the Celestial Kingdom w/o eating meat.”

Good Lord I hope you’re joking. Those “direct revelations” folks freak me out.

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Comment by TCM_guy
2008-12-28 21:12:13

I have heard the contrary argument from the other side of the Celestial Kingdom&mdashthat cardio vascular disease and heart attacks are God’s punishment for those who eat his animals.

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Comment by TCM_guy
2008-12-28 21:13:27

&emdash

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2008-12-28 21:19:43

doh!

 
Comment by robin
2008-12-29 04:28:46

Buying T-Bone steaks for tomorrow night. Don’t think we will burn in hell ($2.77/lb. @ Stater Bros.). - : )

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-12-29 05:53:52

TCM -

There is no proven connection between consuming red meat and animal products and heart disease.

None.

Reading the not made for Oprah science on the subject is enlightening and depressing.

I highly recommend the book “Good Calories, Bad Calories” by Gary Tuabes if you’d like an overview of nutritional science of the last 100 years.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Marcus
2008-12-28 11:32:18

Hi all. I’m stuck in Tampa for the day so I thought I’s slip into the county library…. um.. homeless shelter? and visit HBB. My GPS took me on a lovely tour of West Tampa. I saw so many commercial properties with signs for RE agencies and the like that are abandoned. It got me thinking about how RE workers (agents, brokers, etc show up in unemployment numbers). Are they eligible for unemployment benefits? Regardless, the slew of previosly employeed are certainly way undermployed now. I don’t know if this is showing up in the government’s jobs numbers. It seems to me that this would be a gigantic source of error in the reporting. Thoughts?

Comment by Cinch
2008-12-28 11:50:26

Most people and news outlet quote the U3 number as the official unemployment number reported by the labor department. The latest U6 number is 12.2%, which is the most encompassing number by the government. However, there is another number out there that savvy people here use i.e. Shadow Government Statistics; it is at 16%.

Cinch

 
Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 11:56:40

Well, Mr. Man, are you using your quiet voice? I bet you aren’t. I bet you’re singing.
I was my town librarian when I was 17. It’s a long story. Basically, they had no choice but to hire me eventually because no one else knew where all the books in the one room library were. I had rearranged them all to suit my taste. None a’ that stupid Dewey Decimal system nonsense. Also, no one else in town could read. Hahahaha! (That part was a joke. Well, mostly a joke.)
Really, it’s true, I was. It was wonderful. I quit to go to college, which might have been a mistake. If I’d stayed, I could be up there right now, reading peacefully all day long, undisturbed in tranquil, dust-scented peace, and singing when I wanted to…heaven, man!

Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 12:15:52

It’s a very small town, you see. We have no stop-lights, even now. And we aren’t ever gonna’, either, because if I ever hear that one is getting put in, I’m gonna fly out here and chainsaw it down immediately. Change is bad. (At least, when it comes to my town.)

I’m having a very nostalgic mood today, which makes no sense, because here I am, right here. I should save my nostalgia for when I get back to Olympia. I mean, I almost started crying when I was thinking about the old library. Now the town has big library (relatively big.), a restored old pioneer era brick church, with trained librarians that use the Dewey Decimal system. I guess that change is okay.

Comment by Marcus
2008-12-28 12:34:27

I too was a librarian O-gal. Well, sorta. I worked in the library of my high school. See, I was an insuffrable jock most of the day but when the library closed for 1 1/2 hours during lunch periods, I was employed (volunteer) to sort books n’ magazines while the 250 year old librarian had lunch. Of course I told my friends that I was doing it so I could sleep or grab a dip of Skoal. Truth be told, I was an in-the-closet nerd back then (I’m way out now). I’d spend the entire time devouring everything worth reading. It really was a strange culture back then in rural PA… nothing less cool than being smart.

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Comment by Olympiagal in Utarr for Christmas
2008-12-28 12:57:55

‘It really was a strange culture back then in rural PA… nothing less cool than being smart.’

It was the same here in rural Utarr back then. Book-larnin’ was for sissies. The End. It was more tolerable for girls, but boys? Nohow. May as well drink chilled Evian with your pinky finger held out and run around in a pink ballerina outfit.
A real, true pity, that that’s how it was.

However, you busted free, you say, and have successfully and boldly released your inner nerd. Probably without even requiring a bottle of Evian. Hooray!
Now all you need’s a whole lot of books and a dusty piano and you have simply everything! :)

 
 
Comment by Marcus
2008-12-28 12:41:14

PS- I am not, in fact, singing. I am listening to Beethoven’s 3rd on my gigantic headphones. Can’t sing along though cause there’s no words to it… probably because it was hard to rhyme with Napolean.

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-12-28 19:52:00

I volunteered to work in my junior high school library. Really enjoyed the work.

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Comment by Tim
2008-12-28 11:57:09

I’m thinking there are many ppl with commission based compensation tied to real estate whose compensation has fallen by more than 50% but who have not been laid off. These ppl are usually among the most likely to view themselves as “investors” and be leveraged to the max. Although I would assume that those laid off would be subject to unemployment benefits, I would like to a chart on avg Realtor and mortgage broker compensation for those sticking it out until this recession thing blows over in a few months.

Comment by skroodle
2008-12-28 15:17:27

Many many construction workers, roofers, fence builders, gardeners, etc. worked off the books. No benefits for them.

Comment by rms
2008-12-28 22:05:35

“Many many construction workers, roofers, fence builders, gardeners, etc. worked off the books.”

And they will always “work off the books” because so many of these pecker-heads owe child support.

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Comment by pismoclam
2008-12-28 16:05:32

Try three years, unless the gov.meddles some more with the idiotic bailouts !

 
Comment by Chip
2008-12-28 18:42:18

“…whose compensation has fallen by more than 50%…”

Tim - I’d be willing to bet that the actual percentage drop, in average, is far greater than that.

The dominoes are falling. All that the government’s interference is doing is to switch the movie from normal to slow-motion. Nothing else will change, except the national debt, for which we will pay a terrible price later. Peter Schiff today in the WSJ, “It would be irresponsible in the extreme for an individual to forestall a personal recession by taking out newer, bigger loans when the old loans can’t be repaid. However, this is precisely what we are planning on a national level.”

Reminds me of grammar-school English (bastardized for effect):
I B Scru’d
U B Scru’d
We B Scru’d

 
Comment by milkcrate
2008-12-29 00:15:17

I believe in California, many realtors toiled as independent contractors and thus would not get unemployment benefits. But I could be wrong, and am sure I’ll be summarily corrected as needed.

I did have a grand time today with two kids saucering down Sierra snow. A piece of scavanged orange plastic worked just fine.

Comment by CA renter
2008-12-29 01:40:58

How fun! :)

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Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 13:09:31

Almost every strip mall here has at least one vacancy, and most likely several. Did you drive down West Hillsborough Avenue?

 
 
Comment by SoldierRenter
2008-12-28 11:47:18

I’m here in Tampa and the wife and I went out driving around Brandon, Valrico and Riverview. Because of the government interference in the market, people actually believe it will ‘come back’ and are resisting further cuts before the Super Bowl (you know the RE drill). We are at $82 a sq ft in Valrico for bank owned but I think it should drop to 65-70 (2001) prices. I still recall two years ago being laughed at by a RE Agent who said the Tampa area would never see anything below $100 a sq ft. Everything I had said was from this blog and was factual, all that she had was her hair and a ‘feeling’. Thank you for saving me at least 150K and counting.

Comment by Chip
2008-12-28 18:52:54

SR - if the $82 was per air-conditioned foot and included the lot and it were in Riverview, you might be approaching a pretty good price. The toughest obstacle I am seeing is avoiding neighborhoods that have so many underwater properties that they are likely to sink into ghetto-hood no matter what. While the area in which you’re looking is unlikely ever to become Detroit-south, it can be pretty scary to buy into really dicey neighborhoods. We saw a holy-cow house that we loved near Orlando but there are only six houses built and nothing else is likely to be built anytime soon; it is gated, so the six residents share all the costs of maintaining the streets, lights, gates, etc. No-win, no-how in that case. It is tough sledding out there.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-12-28 12:05:44

“‘I’ve got a jungle surrounding my house,’ said Ed Hunter, who lives next door to an abandoned house on Merritt Island. ‘Could be a bobcat hiding back there.’”

Or a cougar. There’ll be lots of those on the prowl once their FB hubbies cut off their credit cards and start enforcing “lifestyle adjustments”.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 13:51:55

One of the last non-Everglades redoubts of the Florida panther was Collier County, or at least it was until the bubble. In exchange for the diminution of habitat our state got tract-home subdivisions named “Panther Trace,” or something similar.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-12-28 16:00:19

Panther Scat.

 
 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-12-28 12:09:06

“Despite those very strong negatives, Kandel remains optimistic. ‘We’re at the bottom,’ he said. ‘Anyone who knows real estate knows this is a great time to get in.’”

Please oh please, Florida HBBers, let us know when this soon-to-be twice-burned flipper gets his comeupance.

Comment by Muir
2008-12-28 14:49:01

I’ll try Sammy.
I know this will sound strange; however, as I look out at the Miami skyline every morning (breathtakingly beautiful) while drinking coffee or reading I feel really good.
-
Would it surprise anybody here if I told them that they are massive cranes still building high-rises?

Comment by CA renter
2008-12-29 01:43:31

Would it surprise anybody here if I told them that they are massive cranes still building high-rises?
—————–

Nope. Still seeing them here in CA, too…though certainly fewer than during the boom.

 
 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-12-28 12:11:26

He got in the game much too early and was offering too much money for properties, real estate experts say.”

Ah, the Knifecatcher’s Lament. This is going to be the financial epitah for millions more by this time next year.

Comment by Tim
2008-12-28 12:33:05

What does it take to be called a “real estate expert”? If it is based on accuracy of one’s predictions - the label seems to be used incorrectly all the time. If it is based on undertanding the complexities of real estate transactions, what exactly are those complexities that people without advanced degrees or 20 years experience can’t comprehend? From where I stand, it seems that you just need to apply common sense.

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-12-28 12:31:21

“He has defaulted on four loans totaling $2.4 million since the beginning of the year. But that apparantly is not stopping him from going ahead with his public offering.”

Don’t go broke, go public.

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2008-12-28 12:44:09

“Bob Tucker recently bought a five-bedroom South Florida house in foreclosure for $743,000, a $250,000 discount off market value in the neighborhood. Tucker said he spent $100,000 on renovations after the previous owners gutted the kitchen and damaged other parts of the home. Despite the hassle, including tough negotiations with the bank that owned the property, he’s glad he made the deal.”

Wow - he sure is one dumb Tucker. If $250,000 off “market” was possible for him, why not for the next guy? And the one after that? Will he still be glad he made the $743,000 “deal” when identical properties are going for $243,000?
Oh that’s right, he’s from California, buying in Florida, so he’s an expert.

There’s a “Tucker” limerick lurking somewhere…

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-12-28 12:55:32

There once was a knifecatcher named Tucker,
Who waited in vain for a sucker;
But the credit addiction
Turned to cold turkey affliction;
And this is how Tucker’s dreams died.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-12-28 13:28:52

“one dumb Tucker”

LOL….. :-) :-) :-)

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2008-12-28 13:34:47

There once was a man named Bob Tucker
who borrowed to buy a big house
he frothed at the mouth
when values went south
and now his life is a bit tougher.

 
Comment by Otis Wildflower
2008-12-28 21:55:43

Tucker, Knife Catcher
Real estate only goes up
dumb fother mucker.

Comment by ahansen
2008-12-29 00:08:13

Excellent, Otis.
You really captured that one.

People are…um, smart?

 
 
 
Comment by megamike
2008-12-28 12:47:58

Also from the St.Pete Times
Double Dipping In Florida

The St. Petersburg Times is reporting Double dipping rises despite outrage.

This year some of Florida’s public officials are giving a whole new meaning to the phrase “home for the holidays.”

It’s a new crop of double dippers, taking advantage of a loophole in state law that allows them to “retire” by taking 30 days off and return to work in their old jobs with a salary and a pension. Many also collect a lump-sum “retirement” payment that can reach hundreds of thousands of dollars.

At least 25 of those spending December at home were re-elected in November — sheriffs, property appraisers, court clerks and tax collectors, six circuit judges and one state attorney.

None announced their “retirement” plans before voters cast their ballots, and most have not made any public announcement of the resignation letters they have written to Gov. Charlie Crist.

Baker County Sheriff Joey Dobson is getting $311,173 in a lump sum payment and will collect an annual salary of $128,000 and a monthly pension of $5,699. He said he searched for alternatives to taking December off and returning in January, but he said state retirement officials told him it was his only option.

“I have worked for 35 years, but I’m not a wealthy man,” Dobson said. “I sure didn’t want to do it, I hate to be out of the office.”

Miami Dade Community College president Eduardo Padron collected $893,286 in a lump-sum retirement benefit in 2006 and began collecting $14,631 a month in retirement pay in addition to his annual salary of $441,538.

Other double-dipping college presidents include Edwin R. Massey at Indian River State College in Fort Pierce and James R. Richburg at Northwest Florida State College.

Massey collected more than $585,000 in a lump sum last June and now collects a monthly pension of $9,823 plus his annual salary of $286,470.

Richburg, who has been in the news for his controversial dealings with House Speaker Ray Sansom, got a lump sum of $553,228 in 2007 and started collecting a monthly pension of $8,803 in addition to his $228,000 annual salary.
I do not even live in Florida and I am outraged by this. How can any community college president be worth $441,538, a pension benefit of $14,631 a month, on top of a lump sum benefit of $893,286? No wonder education costs are so outrageous.

Given that Florida is ground zero for the housing bust and Florida has no restrictions on filing Chapter 9, I confidently predict several cities or counties in Florida declare bankruptcy.

Ohio and Michigan are also basket cases and add a sprinkling of a few more including Jefferson County Alabama, and it’s easy to come up with a total of 20 municipal bankruptcies for 2009. That is double what John Moorlach predicts.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-12-28 14:00:47

“Miami Dade Community College president Eduardo Padron collected $893,286 in a lump-sum retirement benefit in 2006 and began collecting $14,631 a month in retirement pay in addition to his annual salary of $441,538.”

OMG, you have GOT to be kidding me!

440K/yr for running a _community_ f#^$%ing _college_???

I have nothing against community college—-I think it’s a great place for a lot of people to get started on school in an affordable manner. But that’s about what Big-10 school officials make, IIRC.

Comment by jimo
2008-12-28 14:28:16

it kind of gets you to think, that hey, maybe i should move down to florida and help those poor ol’ pensioners cope with retirement by paying some florida property taxes. if this isn’t a drag on home prices yet, it will be. ditto for new jersey and other fiscally reckless communities.

this is just too funny!

 
 
Comment by skroodle
2008-12-28 15:31:37

There is a federal law that allows those over the age of 75 to receive pension payments and continue working.

I see no reason to allow someone to “retire” in their 50’s and receive their pension and continue to work.

Tax payers are going to be getting angry about this sorta thing in a few years time when Social Security starts to run out.

Comment by In Montana
2008-12-28 16:09:45

You can retire at 65, get full SS and continue working…and certainly can continue working while getting full govt or private retirement too.

Comment by skroodle
2008-12-28 22:12:12

That Federal law allows you to remain employed at the same company and draw a pension while still working and drawing benefits and salary.

Private companies stop paying your pension when you unretire and go back to work for them. Those civil service employees have got quite the deal.

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Comment by shibbo
2008-12-28 16:11:03

I sometimes wonder if government and union employees all take some kind of economics class that teaches how money grows on trees. We need a different kind of system, where union and government employees live by the same standards, get the same benefits, and have the same job security as everyone else.

Comment by CA renter
2008-12-29 01:56:47

Please don’t lump these hucksters with your average union worker.

I’ll be the first to admit that some union leaders and members can be a bit extreme, but they are vital to maintaining a middle class in the U.S.

Instead of bringing down civil service workers, private employees should be using the public wages/benefits as leverage when they negotiate with their employers. Unions benefit ALL workers, even those who do not belong to unions.

 
 
 
Comment by guyintucson
2008-12-28 12:58:29

University of West Florida economist Rick Harper, says “the only way to get back into a demand-supply equilibrium ,… is when population catches up with the supply built. If we don’t stimulate population growth, based on our existing growth, it’s going to take 10 years or more to recover from this recession.’”

How he plans to stimulate the population growth?

Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 13:13:32

Yeah. I read that and thought, it’s over. Of course, I’ve been saying that Florida is over for several years now, so maybe I should be teaching at UWF.

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2008-12-28 13:39:45

Oh my, what to do with all these MT aging buildings? Next thing these RE geniuses will be screaming advocating for is the WIDE OPEN FLOODGATES of immigration.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-12-28 14:41:28

Unless banks are willing to extend large amounts of credit to such persons, it won’t matter how many people immigrate here or whether they are legal or illegal. That’s one reason why things are they way they are: prices depended upon reckless lending, and now that’s gone.

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-12-28 19:07:20

Talked to a very pleasant little old lady in a grocery store today. She lives in a high-rise retirement building. Asked her how things were going there and she said that there were and exceptional number of units vacant - because the intending occupants can’t sell their houses.

This lady was super-nice and I wasn’t about to tell her that the truth is either, they “won’t” sell (at their wishing price), or that they counted on receiving an unattainable price when signing up for the retirement home. I know of at least one other retirement home that is down maybe 30% on occupancy because residents moved back in with their children and insufficient new tenants have replaced them. Every time I think about staying in Florida (born & raised here and love the state, despite its flaws), this discourages me from doing so. Don’t have anywhere enough money to finance my assessed part of the deficit Florida’s politicians have gotten us into.

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2008-12-28 15:07:35

Man the Life boats ……… BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!

My little area of Sunnyside Queens has its First….drumrolll

PAWN SHOP…….

and its named DJ’s Pawn Shop looks like it opened up Friday.

 
Comment by favorednation
2008-12-28 18:10:44

be ware of the one who says “Gold told me to kill you”. LOL Some “revelations” aren’t so good.

Comment by Curt
2008-12-29 07:12:45

Yup, those “Gold” worshipers are a strange lot.

 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-12-29 10:26:55

Kind of interesting to see what will happen to Atlanta. Me and my Wife had thought about moving to Atlanta because its closer to our families. I figured it must be pretty cheap. Nope. Anything remotely close to the city seemed to be in the 250-300k range. No effin’ way I’m paying 300k for a cookie-cutter house in Atlanta. 150k… maybe. Atlanta is just as overpriced as some of the bubble areas.

Comment by Chip
2008-12-29 13:40:30

Jetson - true, generally, but I think you can find some really, really low per-foot prices in the Dallas/Hiram area. I’d look there for myself, but it is too dense - we are looking for something about 50 miles from Atlanta city-center.

 
Comment by Chip
2008-12-29 13:42:08

The caveat: I hear that many of the neighborhoods are belly-up developments, so be wary of false savings. Otherwise I agree with you that Atlanta was just as bubbly as other areas and that the people there are mightily resisting admitting it.

 
 
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