January 3, 2009

Owning A Home Was Not A Luxury - It Was A Must

The San Francisco Chronicle reports from California. “From her snug one-bedroom condominium near San Francisco State University, Lea Azucena has watched family members struggle against foreclosure. But Azucena is not worried about losing her home, even though she recently lost her job. The payments on her fixed mortgage are so modest that she knows she can get by on unemployment insurance while she seeks work. Azucena credits her sense of security to the pre-purchase counseling she received from the Mission Economic Development Association.”

“‘I couldn’t be in a safer spot than I am,’ said Azucena, who purchased her 560-square-foot condominium unit near the Daly City border on Halloween 2007.”

“In 2006, MEDA counseled nine families threatened by foreclosure, said Jane Duong, MEDA’s homeownership program manager. In 2008, the group helped 155 such families. Across the bay, at the Home Ownership Center operated by Oakland’s Unity Council, 945 clients had foreclosure concerns, up from 31 in 2006. ‘The numbers have just grown exponentially,’ said Sheri Powers, homeownership manager at the Unity Council.”

“The most pernicious mortgages, said Powers, an attorney and former bank loan officer, were the negative amortization loans. Borrowers who opted for that plan effectively dug themselves deeper into debt each month. That’s what happened to a close relative of Azucena’s, who is now in foreclosure proceedings.”

“‘People in the industry knew that these loans spelled trouble,’ said Powers. ‘For Alan Greenspan to have the nerve to say that he had no idea? Give me a break; lowly loan officers like myself knew.’”

“Azucena…was desperate to have a home to call her own. She grew up in San Francisco after her family gained asylum in 1980 after fleeing El Salvador’s civil war. She attended high school in El Salvador, college in Southern California and then returned to San Francisco for the Genentech job. But Azucena’s rental apartment was sold out from under her and she found herself couch surfing.”

“‘I started to feel that owning a home was not a luxury - it was a must,’ she said. She attended a MEDA workshop, started saving for a down payment, and Duong helped her find first-time home-buyer assistance from city and state programs.”

“‘In coming here so young and being displaced from my country, it became a mission to find a sense of home,’ she said.”

The Manteca Bulletin. “Foreclosures dominated the news — and the economy — in Manteca. Just over 1,000 homes that went back to bank ownership during the year were sold at prices averaging $180,000 less than they were purchased for three to four years earlier.”

“Median prices of existing homes dropped over $116,000 in Manteca during 2008. They are down $181,000 off the market’s peak of $429,000 in 2005.”

“At the start of 2008 when foreclosures started shaking many people’s confidence in the economy, The First Assembly of God Church under the leadership of Pastor Mike Dillman did what qualifies as a leap of faith and a modern-day economic miracle all wrapped up into one. They had bought a home on North Grant Street that had become the poster home for the foreclosure mess. Vagrants had taken the house over, ripping apart cabinets for firewood, stripping copper from the walls, and urinating on the floors. Walls were marked with graffiti. The neighborhood was under siege.”

“The congregation bought the home vowing to fix it up, resell it, and spend the proceeds on charitable undertakings. People thought they were nuts. There was no way the house could be worth the effort. Some even called the Bulletin saying the pastor was leading his church down the wrong path and into financial ruin.”

“By mid-spring the miracle had taken place. The house had been repaired, updated, spruced up and sold for a tidy profit. ‘This is truly an opportunity that only comes along once in a lifetime,’ Dillman said after the church bought the home.”

The Recordnet. “Steven A. Rosso, longtime president and chief executive officer of Stockton-based Pacific State Bank, has resigned his position, citing personal reasons. The chairman of the board, Stockton physician Harold Hand, said Rosso was under no pressure to leave because of bank losses last quarter. ‘This is a tough time for banks, and we lost a little money,’ he said, adding that the bank - and hopefully, the whole economy - will do much better next year.”

“Plummeting mortgage interest rates combined with declining home prices are boosting sales, Stockton real estate brokers report. Ben Balsbaugh, residential sales manager for PMZ Real Estate in Stockton, said sales continue to be strong.”

“‘The lower interest rates, combined with lower home prices, have brought many first-time home buyers into the market,’ he said. ‘We are seeing many investors entering the market as well.’”

“Foreclosures continue to dominate the existing home-sales market, making up nearly nine out of 10 purchases. In terms of sheer unit sales, Stockton brokers have reported…their best sales year ever as median home selling prices in the city dropped as low as $130,000 for November - down more than half from $265,000 the previous November.”

The Press Enterprise. “Brian Gerard, who runs a one-man executive search operation in Los Angeles and specializes in recent graduates, said it used to be a good month when he could place between 15 and 20 people in jobs. Now he’s lucky to get three or four, and Gerard worries about how he’s going to pay his bills. ‘I’ve been doing this since 1984, and this, without any hesitation, is the worst job market I have ever seen,’ Gerard said. ‘The other people who do the same type of work are having the same problem.’”

“The market is different for headhunters who find experienced managerial people, said Art Gage, who has run an executive search firm in Riverside for 32 years. Gage specializes in senior management positions and said that market is solid right now. There’s job movement at those levels, in part, because some executives are so discouraged by the spiraling economy that they’re fed up, Gage said.”

“‘They’re saying ‘This isn’t fun anymore,’ Gage said of retiring executives. ‘They’ve been doing it for 30 years, and they’re saying they don’t want to go through another one of these downturns.’”

“CulverCareers, a San Diego-based job placement service with an office in Riverside, has an advantage because it’s a national operation, so it can match clients with applicants from all over as long as they’re willing to relocate, said Jerry Muntz, a recruiter in Riverside. But business is slow, Muntz said. The Riverside CulverCareers office has lost half its staff to attrition, and companywide, employment is down about one-third.”

“Muntz agreed that there are opportunities to fill senior-level openings, but the employers are looking for long-term commitments. Entry-level placements, which were bountiful in Inland Southern California only a few years ago, are a fraction of that now. ‘A recent graduate used to have a half-dozen choices,’ Muntz said. ‘Now it’s down to one or two for entry-level. It is very tough right now, especially in the Inland Empire.’”

The San Gabriel Valley Tribune. “After a year of layoffs, tightening credit, mortgage defaults and Wall Street woes, business leaders and operators around the San Gabriel Valley are hoping for a new year of better news. We talked to some of them this week, and they all echoed similar themes: that government bailout money would help not just Wall Street, but businesses and their employees on Main Street. And they hoped for a new year in which consumers will regain their confidence in an increasingly accessible credit market.”

“Here’s what they actually said. ‘My hope for the new year is three-pronged: Number one, that the bailouts will convey its effects starting in January or February so that retail can start turning things around. No. 2, that the small businesses that are struggling can benefit from the bailouts….Some small business are barely staying open. My hope would be that they could show a profit - that they wouldn’t have to worry about closing their business. Third, that the unemployment rate will decline, and we see less people laid off from jobs.’ - Gary Lawson, executive director of the West Covina Chamber of Commerce.”

“‘An economic upturn…and some relief out of Washington to folks here who are trying to contribute to the economy. It would be nice to see some of those significant taxpayer dollars going to bailout the economy make it to local business people who really are the bedrock of the economy. I’d like to wake wake up on Jan. 1 and find out this recession was some kind of a joke….’- Paul Little, CEO of the Pasadena Chamber of Commerce.”

“‘It’s all about stabilization of the economy. We want people to keep working, jeep spending money and keep their jobs. That’s what I’m hoping for. As a result that homeowners - those who can afford it - will be able to modify their loans, and keep their houses and keep their families together….And for those that can’t that they get a speedy recovery. - Marty Rodriguez - Real estate broker, Century 21, Glendora.”

The Daily Breeze. “Prices of homes in the Los Angeles metro area dropped 27.9 percent in October compared with a year earlier, according to the Standard & Poor’s S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices. The study’s 20-city survey showed a record annual price decline of 18 percent for October. The 20-city composite is down 23.4 percent since its peak in mid-2006.”

“The Standard & Poor’s study came a week after a similarly downbeat survey was released by the Los Angeles-based California Association of Realtors. That earlier release for November showed that South Bay home prices fell 17.2 percent, compared with November 2007, to a median price of $530,000.”

“Carson led the way with a drop of 41.2 percent for November to $300,000. Gardena also suffered a steep drop of 29.2 percent to $310,000.”

“The beach cities saw a price drop of 16.8 percent to $872,500. Redondo Beach was the seventh priciest city in the survey with a median price of $667,500, down 10 percent. Other cities considered pricier than Redondo Beach, such as Manhattan Beach, did not make the list as individual communities because they did not register at least 30 home sales for November. Torrance’s price slide was 17.1 percent to $512,500.”

“‘Median prices declined across all regions of the state in year-year terms, with the largest declines occurring in areas with higher concentrations of distressed sales,’ CAR chief economist Leslie Appleton-Young said.”

“Appleton-Young added that for the first time since early 2002, the statewide median price for only existing, single-family detached homes fell below $300,000, registering at $285,680, a 41.8 percent drop from the previous November.”




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109 Comments »

Comment by Martin Gale
2009-01-03 11:05:04

560 sq ft for Ms Azucena. I have had bigger walk-in closets in rental apartments. That is true “pride of ownership” at work.

Comment by Swordsman
2009-01-03 11:34:00

“560 sq ft for Ms Azucena. I have had bigger walk-in closets in rental apartments. That is true “pride of ownership” at work.”

So what? Is there something about living within your means that you find offensive?

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-03 13:01:31

I’ve never actually measured my hole-in-the-wall, but I’m guessing it’s around 450 sq.ft. As the building is rather large there are several direct comparisons to my fixed costs and the going rents for the exact same unit size. At present my costs total 55%~60% of the going rent.

In the choice between creative financing and simply downsizing, the latter better fit my desire to minimize encumberances. Time will tell how it all works out. It’s certainly not for everyone, but a properly functioning housing market would better allow for such perferences.

 
Comment by Ann
2009-01-03 15:44:54

The point is that she bought what she could afford..isn’t that what we preach on this blog. There is nothing wrong with buying if that is what someone chooses to do. I commend her and the fact that she is happy with it.

 
 
Comment by NJRenter
2009-01-03 12:25:07

I think his point was that she would be much better off renting instead of buying; but that “pride of ownership” meant she had to buy and own, which turned out not to be in her best interest.

Nothing offensive.

Comment by Swordsman
2009-01-03 12:49:15

“I think his point was that she would be much better off renting instead of buying; but that “pride of ownership” meant she had to buy and own, which turned out not to be in her best interest.”

So exactly how has owning not been in her best interest here? She bought sensibly, obviously hasn’t much debt if any, and while she’s unemployed she still makes her house payment. I’ve known renters who weren’t so well positioned. His post was intentionally derisive and condescending.

Comment by NJRenter
2009-01-03 12:59:12

I think she would have been better off because she could have rented a much bigger and better place for less. While she’s not having trouble meeting her mortgage obligations now, she’s nevertheless paying monthly for a depreciating asset. She could have rented for a better place or less money.

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Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 13:17:16

Unless you buy you are not free to paint the walls and try all the latest HGTV designer fads. That is why homeownership is truely priceless.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-03 13:24:55

I can install ceiling fans in my Phoenix apartment if I want. I can paint the walls if I want (of course, on approval by the management).

There are 3 bedroom units in my complex. Most people have pets. Some have big dogs and / or children.

It’s a myth that you cannot modify your apartment unit. Did you get your ideas from NAR or what?

 
Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 13:30:31

I can never get enough home projects. Who wants free time when you can do chores?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-03 17:16:24

LOL

This is the part I never understood. I hate cleaning my place let alone all the fixing up and doodad-didgeroos. What a complete and utter waste of time, energy and money.

 
Comment by PopGoesBend
2009-01-04 14:41:03

If I paint all the walls in my rental and the landlord doesn’t like it he will take my $1000 deposit.

Median house prices here in Bend dropped 32% YOY for December - over $100k drop.

I could drive my car through the wall and not lose as much money renting as if I had not sold my house.

 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2009-01-03 13:24:52

“His post was intentionally derisive and condescending.”

Lighten up Francis…….

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Comment by Jimbo
2009-01-03 14:50:19

“I’ll kill ya.’” LOl. I hear variations on this line out of “Stripes” from criminals about to be sentenced all the time. In an effort to convince a judge he cares deeply about his children, a criminal will babble on about how he would give his life for his kids; how, if anybody harmed a hair on his kids’ heads, “I’ll kill ‘em.” I’m usually thinking to myself, “Dude, it’s not that hard. You don’t have to give your life or kill anybody. Just try calling the kid once in awhile or maybe make some payments toward the $17,000 in your child support arrearages.” But no; the criminal would rather show how much he cares by threatening to kill anyone who looks crooked at his kids.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-03 14:29:26

A bit thin skinned, are we???

Question is, how much did she pay for it?? The article didn’t say. That would give a better indication of whether it was a good idea or not.

Now, lighten up.

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Comment by Itsabouttime
2009-01-03 18:11:21

She gets a fixed interest rate, is happy with her purchase, is living in minimal space (for the US), makes no claim to living in an undesirable neighborhood, is not headed to foreclosure, has a history of having been forced to leave entire countries (which might lead anyone to value the chance to put down roots). All that, yet, some all knowing pos(t)ers seek to “enlighten” her (and us) with their own idea of what’s better for her.

We write often of how people need to make up their own minds and not listen to the NRA and so forth. Now someone does that, and anger abounds.

Very odd.

IAT

 
Comment by oxide
2009-01-03 21:46:44

At the height of the bubble, studios in Washington went for about $160K or so. I don’t know if she could afford anything pricier on unemployment benefits.

I don’t think she should be ridiculed outright, but the fact does remain that she is tied to her home. She can’t relocate for a new job.

 
Comment by pismoclam
2009-01-03 22:51:42

The whole City is undesirable. Who will be the next head wacko when Newsom gets termed out?

 
Comment by butitsdifferenhere
2009-01-04 11:19:10

The area she describes is not a great area, IMHO. Daly City is dubbed “Little Manilla”, over crowded and crappy weather. I would bet she overpaid if she bought it in late 2007, as the inner Bay Area (NOT Stockton/Tracy/Modesto/Sacramento/Antioch) is still full of houses listed at unrealistic prices. It’s coming down….but slowly.

 
 
 
Comment by Bungalowball
2009-01-03 18:14:23

There does not seem to be enough information in this article to determine whether or not she is a FB.

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-01-03 12:49:28

I guess your closet will become the new nursery if you are not careful. mizzzz Azucena

Comment by SaladSD
2009-01-03 23:18:22

Gosh, my house, which i have a mortgage on, is….shriek…under 2,000 square feet, and double-shriek, accommodates 2 parental units and 2 underage units. According to conventional wisdom, its completely unacceptable square footage-wise (since folks need ample space to store their crap & impress the flat-liners) AND I’m one of the fools to so-call “own” a house. In defense of conventional homeownership, I’m very happy to clean and maintain my abode, it’s not that big of a deal if you keep up with it. The wonders of non McMansions are that they are efficient.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-03 14:27:09

As for the “buy vs. rent” thing, I’m not sure folks in most of the country understand what it’s like being a tenant in the Northeast Corridor and California.

Vacancy is low. Tenants pay the real estate fees. Concessions like free rent are unheard of. And rents rise every year, except in severe recessions — when I tell people NYC rents will fall this year, people think I’m nuts. If a neighborhood is changing for the better, you might not be able to pay the increase and have to move away from your friends and acquaintences (yes we have real neighborhoods where proxmity still matters).

With that experience, less savvy people can be made to believe “feel that owning a home was not a luxury - it was a must.” So in the bubble, home sellers make them pay way over rental equivalent for that security. Until it becomes so much they can’t pay, and then you have a bust. This is our second bubble.

Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:16:57

San Francisco has rent control. Once you’re in, your rent can’t rise more than 3% per month. If the landlord sells the building, there are rules about what the new landlord can do. They can’t just raise your rent.

Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:19:11

Sorry, I meant to say 3% per year, not per month. 3% per month would be a lot.

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Comment by cactus
2009-01-04 08:26:54

“As for the “buy vs. rent” thing, I’m not sure folks in most of the country understand what it’s like being a tenant in the Northeast Corridor and California.”

yea thats right its tough and why I bought way back in 1989 when I sold in 2006 I decided to move to Phoenix knowing renting in Ventura County CA would cost me dearly if I mis- calculated the housing bubble and the expected crash.

 
 
Comment by NYchk
2009-01-03 15:41:26

She bought prudently, good for her. She can have a roof over her head even if she loses her job. That’s awesome. Her financial situation is much more stable than a renter at the mercy of a landlord, IMHO.

I wish I could buy a small apartment in New York at such a low price that payments & maintenance would be covered by unemployment…

I checked out NYT RE section this morning. Asking prices in Manhattan have started to come down. But still too high. I’m afraid inflation will kick in before the prices have a chance to fall to reasonable levels.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-03 17:01:34

Sorry, don’t buy this.

The renter has ultimate power. It may be a pain to move but it’s a fixed finite cost that can be budgeted for.

By comparison, she is paying for a depreciating asset each day.

Comment by Itsabouttime
2009-01-03 18:14:37

If she doesn’t plan to sell, why should she care that it is depreciating. All of our bodies are depreciating, too, but if we can still live in it, that’s all we need! :-)

IAT

PS–I guess I am getting a little tired of how even prudent house purchases are judged irrational if they do not “cost out.” Hey, you know, life doesn’t cost out. But, is that really the point?

If some buy a house to live in, not to sell later for a profit, I don’t think waiting for “bigger” or “better” if one does not want bigger (and one does not think the next thing is “better”) makes any sense at all.

IAT

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-03 18:32:23

It’s not a question of “cost out”; it’s the cost of looking like a mor*n.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and if you don’t like them, feel free to buy a house (or to shove a stick where the sun don’t shine.)

 
Comment by Itsabouttime
2009-01-03 18:45:38

For the mature, the cost of looking like a moron is zero, because mature people don’t care how others see them. Only the immature weigh the attitudes of strangers and thus do things that are not in their interest (because “everyone” says they should) and don’t do things that are in their interest (because “everyone” says they shouldn’t).

I haven’t bought, and I generally share the anti-buy-now attitude, because for my situation now it does not make sense. But, FPSS, it takes a moron-full of arrogance to presume to know what’s better for every single person on earth. That’s the kind of moronic arrogance that the Realtwhores had. I don’t have that much arrogance. I guess you do, FPSS, and maybe that’s why you have shoving a stick somewhere on the brain — must be itching to find just how much moronite you have inside.

IAT

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-03 21:14:01

You must be new here.

The woman is a complete fool, and from the looks of it, so are you.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 01:36:10

Our last “owned” home was under 1,300 sf, and we had two kids then (now three). Our rental is just a tad over 2,000, and I really miss having the nice, small home to clean. It’s a big difference!

 
 
Comment by NYchk
2009-01-03 19:37:29

Rent is a “fixed finite cost”? Not in my experience. Every year my rent is raised. Any savings from a cheaper rent elsewhere would be wiped out by agent’s fees, so moving to a worse area nearby is not a solution either.

(Yes, I know, for now rents are falling, but for how long?)

IMO, a cheap fixed mortgage is more easily budgeted for than an ever increasing rent. The key is “cheap” (affordable).

NYC is still unaffordable, that’s the problem.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-03 21:11:56

If rents are “falling for now” then they can’t be “ever increasing”, can they now, Captain Inconsistent?

 
Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:23:14

My rent almost never goes up. It went up by 50 bucks in 2002 when I was back in San Diego. It went up by 50 bucks in 2007 too.

Rents in the bay area go up when incomes go up, then they go down when incomes go down. From what I can tell, they are flat to declining right now.

Agents fee? What for? Can’t you just scout out craigslist?

 
Comment by LILLL
2009-01-04 00:51:24

I was living in a SFH rental last year—craaaazy landlady–raised the rent from $2200 to $2600. Kept “dropping by” Ugh! I promptly moved. There is nothing wrong with buying a house as shelter if you buy low and well within your means. Lay off haters! It’s the specuvestors and flippers that added to the problem….not simple folks like me who just want to grow my own garden….and add a guesthouse…and lay my own concrete countertops….

 
Comment by NYchk
2009-01-04 07:50:18

“If rents are “falling for now” then they can’t be “ever increasing”, can they now, Captain Inconsistent?”

LOL. Of course they can. Oscillating but trending upwards. “Falling now” = short term, “ever increasing” = long term. It would be so sweet to lock a low fixed payment for a long term.

I do not believe in deflation long term. My experience taught me differently. When TPTB are in trouble and can’t pay off their debts, they inflate.

“Agents fee? What for? Can’t you just scout out craigslist?”

Good luck with that in NYC… I did better for my current apartment, not craigslist, but pounding the pavement around the block where I wanted to live. I found an apartment by myself. I STILL had to pay the agent a one month fee (thankfully at least not a two months fee). Why? Because the building had an exlusive contract with that agent, and the management company would not rent to me unless I paid the fee. Bastards. :-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:06:40

Yeah, 560 square feet is pretty small. But still, I don’t see how she can pay her mortgage off of unemployment if she bought in 2007. I think 560 square feet in SF in 2007 was like $400k or something.

Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:25:31

Oh, BTW, you can’t get more than $450/week from unemployment in California.

 
Comment by FP
2009-01-04 09:48:23

I really don’t think it was the right purchase as well.

1. She bought in a declining market and recently lost her job.
2. She is banking on unemloyment to pay her mortgage. While she is looking for another job (tough to do in this economy)
3. If she get’s into deep doo doo, she will need to sell and that won’t happen.

She did the right things. Study mortgages, saving for a down but she, like most buyers now, are too swayed by the “right to own” and not think about the “risk” of owning at this current market. She would’ve been better off buying in two years because the prices WILL be much lower and possibly the interest rates are lower as well. She may have found another job by then that is much more stable.

Her situation to me is the worst situation. I’ve been contemplating on purchasing this year because I too want to own a property (like everyone in this board) because the prices now are favorable, I’m saving and have a HUGE down, the interests rates are favorable, and there is a good selection out there. BUT I am wary about the economy, the market is still declining and if I bought my down is all for not. The job market is tough and if I lose my job(s), then I am F&**cked. I am still leaning towrds a purchase but I really have to gauge the risks more carefully.

 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 11:43:23

“‘They’re saying ‘This isn’t fun anymore,’ Gage said of retiring executives. ‘They’ve been doing it for 30 years, and they’re saying they don’t want to go through another one of these downturns.’”

Fun? One bad year and they throw in the towel? This really emphasizes how undeserving those that profited from the boom really were. When destroying families lives isn’t fun anymore, time to retire to FL. I hope they lose everything and have to take the 60 hour a week low paying job they deserve.

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 03:41:00

Amen!

 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-01-03 11:55:24

Way to Go Swordsman. Tell the Dick Head.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-03 12:29:25

There’s no reason to be rude.

 
 
Comment by Houston Observer
2009-01-03 12:09:26

The Manteca Bulletin link points to the RecordNet story. I think you want this one instead: http://mantecabulletin.com/news/article/381/

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-01-03 12:11:09

“…the statewide median price for only existing, single-family detached homes fell below $300,000, registering at $285,680, a 41.8 percent drop from the previous November.” :-)

Now, now let’s see: $286,000 @ the up & coming 14+ % interest rates makes a monthly payment of apprx? So, subtracting a “required” 30% down payment ($84,000 cash)…yep, there are tons of folks ready to start snapping up those 40% reduced price “homes” ;-)

 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-01-03 12:27:15

Palmetto, Thank You So Very Much for taking the time to write and explain. It shows you are a good person, and it means a lot to me not to buy in Cape Coral if it will sink me.

My spelling is better this time, because I didn’t think anyone would respond. I am grateful.

Also, I didn’t know anything about the “Chinese Drywall Issue” for example, or the employment prospects.

If I ever get down there, I owe you a dinner. Again, Thank You!

Greg

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2009-01-03 12:32:46

councilors ?
who’s buying and do they use picture graphs ?
up the booty for sure

 
Comment by Chip
2009-01-03 13:01:45

Yo, Palmy! What’s with the Chinese drywall? I missed that one. Is it thinner than US-made? Seems same to assume that it is not better than our stuff.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 13:09:10

Hey, Chip, here’s a link. You can also google it and there are problems on the Treasure Coast as well, not just in Lee County. It would appear to be in the Lennar homes as well as a few others. Chinese drywall stinks, literally.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20081220/NEWS01/81219086/1076

Comment by Chip
2009-01-04 11:35:07

Palmetto - thanks. Wow. will repost today (1/4) - would like to know how to determine if this stuff is in a house.

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Comment by The Housing Wizard
2009-01-03 14:21:23

Chip, apparently it’s toxic ,if I remember correctly .

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 14:29:13

geez, I posted replies to both Chip and ATE, but they haven’t come through yet. But just enter “Chinese Drywall” in google and the stories will come up. Seems Florida got the lion’s share.

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Comment by hwy59ina49dodge
2009-01-03 14:39:09

Made in China: Toxic warning label
Made in India: Toxic label warning

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Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 13:04:08

Wow, Greg, thank YOU for the double thanks. But as I said in my other reply, it’s just my opinion based on what I know about the areas. Oddly, for a brief period of time, I commuted to Cape Coral from South Hillsborough on a temporary gig. Long, boring drive that I hope never to have to do again. Del Prado Blvd. has got to be one of the flattest, dullest, most frustrating roads ever.
Hated it.

 
 
Comment by fecaltime
2009-01-03 12:46:27

I’d be very happy to see prices fall to 1995 levels or even 1998 levels, here in Southern California. I don’t know if I believe that is going to happen but I suppose it could. What does everybody think.

Fecaltime!

Comment by cactus
2009-01-03 19:42:24

from Mauldin

“… Broadly speaking, financial crises are protracted affairs. More often than not, the aftermath of severe financial crises share three characteristics. First, asset market collapses are deep and prolonged. Real housing price declines average 35 percent stretched out over six years, while equity price collapses average 55 percent over a downturn of about three and a half years. ”
————————————————————————
” fall to 1995 levels or even 1998 levels” I think that would be at least a 50% decline so this would have to be worse than the average financial crises thats what I think. Will it be worse than average? Looks like it so far

 
Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:31:44

Yes, 1998. That’s probably a good estimate. You’ll have to wait and see, though. The bottom will last for a while.

 
 
Comment by Jon
2009-01-03 12:54:37

Azucena’s rental apartment was sold out from under her and she found herself couch surfing

I can relay to that.
It is tough renting.
Last place we were renting the landlord was near our home or in the backyard all the time.
Our dog who was very friendly with everyone else hated him. After three years of torture we finally moved to a new location. But it is tough renting after you have lived in your own home.
We sold our place in 2005 it was a good financial decision but sometimes all the money in the world is not worth it.
Waiting to buy in OC

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 17:31:04

“But it is tough renting after you have lived in your own home.”

There’s definitely a tradeoff and some days I don’t entirely agree with some of the posters about the joys of renting. True, there’s usually less or no maintenance to have to contend with. But the downside is, unless you’re lucky, it’s not a stable situation. I’m here two years now and the first year was fine, because the condo next door to me was empty. Then some jerks bought it and the place sounds like a kennel all the time. And that’s just the start. My landlord’s an OK guy, but recently he just sort of appeared out of the blue and I was glad I was all dressed and on my way out. Would have been real embarrassed if he’d caught me in my skivvies.

Before I lived here, I was burned out of my nice little apartment complex. I had been very happy there, until the white trash behind me decided to PARTAY!!!!!!!!! and lit the place on fire. Boom, just like that, I’m homeless. Thank God for renter’s insurance.

The worst part of apartment or condo living is sharing walls. Hate it. Now I’m on the huntdown for a little concrete block shack, to rent or to buy if the price is right.

Comment by BackToTheBank
2009-01-03 18:14:44

“I’m here two years now and the first year was fine, because the condo next door to me was empty. Then some jerks bought it and the place sounds like a kennel all the time.”

So what does that have to do with being a renter? If you owned the place you’d have the same problem.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 20:03:06

Yah, here’s the rub, I wouldn’t own the place, because I’d never buy a condo. My renting here was a matter of what happened to be available in the area within my budget at the time I was burned out of the other place.

Sure, there can be yapping dogs at the house next door in a neighborhood, but at least you have some distance from them. I was over at a couple of Del Webb built 1960s concrete block homes recently. Dang. Built like brick sh*thouses. Very quiet.

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Comment by Pullthetrigger?
2009-01-04 04:09:54

“There’s definitely a tradeoff and some days I don’t entirely agree with some of the posters about the joys of renting. True, there’s usually less or no maintenance to have to contend with. But the downside is, unless you’re lucky, it’s not a stable situation. I’m here two years now and the first year was fine, because the condo next door to me was empty. Then some jerks bought it and the place sounds like a kennel all the time. And that’s just the start.”
But that IS the joy of renting. Now you can move! If you had bought the place, you would be stuck in an asset underwater with no choice. And “yapping dogs” are not just that. They disturb your peace big time. I’m so glad you can move. If I lived in FLA or AZ, I would NEVER buy. Check this out: (I got it from a poster here several years ago) http://www.barkingdogs.net

 
 
Comment by sfrenter
2009-01-03 22:24:11

Try renting if you have a rottweiler.

There are some good reasons to own. Dogs are one of them.

After watching my elderly father have to deal with moving so many times (in his 70’s!) to different places in Manhattan - he needed to be close to where family could take care of him - I can also see how the “forced saving” of ownership could be a good idea as you get older.

No way do I want to be 80 years old and renting.

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Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:35:00

Most people that age will sell their houses and live off the profit for the rest of their years.

 
Comment by GH
2009-01-04 01:47:58

I agree, my parents had no mortgage or payments except for maintenance and property tax for many years. Of course they bought and sold at a profit throughout their lives, but I am not sure this model works any more. Offshoring broke our ability to ask for more money - unless you work for the govenrment in certain divisions.

 
Comment by GH
2009-01-04 01:47:58

I agree, my parents had no mortgage or payments except for maintenance and property tax for many years. Of course they bought and sold at a profit throughout their lives, but I am not sure this model works any more. Offshoring broke our ability to ask for more money - unless you work for the govenrment in certain divisions.

 
Comment by butitsdifferenhere
2009-01-04 11:37:50

sfrenter,

I know exactly what you mean re: renting with a rottweiler. Last year, I had a hell of a time to find a place suitable for me and my dog (giving him up was not a realistic option - he was my “kid”). So, I’m 30yrs old, lawyer, top 5% FICO, etc. - looking for a place was crazy. When they heard “Rottweiler”, it was game over. My Rott was a baby, not destructive and completely trained. Never bit anyone.

I ended up getting a nice rental 1br house in Palo Alto. The rent was/is higher than I’d like, but it has a yard and a great dog-friendly neighbors and landlord (who has owned the rental since the 70’s). Put my dog down in March, but not sure if I’ll stay or not - but rents around here are not dropping off much.

 
Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-01-04 14:51:47

I’m so sorry you lost your baby in March. :(

When I become a landlord I am only going to rent to people with pets. 1.) I just like animals and animal people better. 2.) You can get the cream of the crop (lawyers with high FICO’s) in terms of education and behavior. 3.) Being a pet-friendly landlord makes it easier to rent units in rough rental times.

It’s not hard for tenant to get an umbrella policy for $1 million for possible dog problems for a rental. Mine is about $100/year although I am far more worried about my dogs running into traffic and causing a pile up than biting someone. Also, a conversation with someone and checking references lets you know what kind of owner and by extension tenant they will be. I know dogs and would never discriminate against rotties or pitts that I had met personally (Fila Brasileiros would probably be the exception but again it depends.)

 
 
 
Comment by rms
2009-01-03 21:43:47

“The worst part of apartment or condo living is sharing walls.”

I like having a garage with a work bench in one corner. I enjoy being able to work on things using the hand tools in my roll-away box. I also like living slightly upscale in order to control what type of neighbor I may have to live with, economic discrimination for lack of a better term.

Comment by Boethius
2009-01-04 18:18:05

All that is possible for a price when renting, have a garage/shop and live in a good neighborhood, same as I did when I owned…sold in early 2007 thanks to what I learned here…one shared wall in my duplex but noise has not been a problem

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Comment by TCM_guy
2009-01-04 11:48:19

Palm: I agree with you about the trade-off thing.

When I moved into a small 2/1 SFH rental more than three years ago I was elated. My next door neighbor was a quiet little old lady. She has since moved out and now her grandson lives there. The grandson is very quiet, but now he has a large dog outside.

He walked his dog maybe twice when he was a pup. Now this dog simply exists in his little holding pen. This barking machine gets food and water, but not much else. I never could understand what is the attraction of owning a dog if the animal is going to be serving a life sentence in a small holding pen.

Last summer there was a heavy thunderstorm, and a big tree trunk fell onto the neighbor’s backyard. After a few weeks of Mr. do nothing doing nothing, the neighbors rolled this tree trunk over the fence. More weeks went by before Mr. do nothing finally did something.

Last November the LL had a big tree cut. He removed all the branches, but left the big heavy tree trunk pieces. I have been reminding him about the trunk pieces in the back yard, and also that the gutters need to be cleaned.

I have already told him I will clean the gutters myself if he can drop of a ladder at the property, and that I would be more than happy to help him load the wood up on his trailer, just as I helped him load the tree branches. But Mr. do nothing is content with doing nothing.

I am now looking for another rental house. I am in no big hurry, since these aggravations are small compared to living in a compartment with barking dogs on the other side of the drywall. We the renters have the ability to pick ourselves up and move with 30 days notice, which is one of the biggest attractions of renting; particularly during periods of declining RE values. Yeah moving is a headache, but life is full of headaches, some bigger than others, and moving is a small one.

When I give this LL my 30 days notice I will tell him that I simply got tired of living in the same place. He is holding my deposit and I will be asking for a letter of reference, so there is no need to raise any issues with him a that time.

Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 17:47:45

Get your letter of reference before paying the last month’s rent.

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Comment by uptick
2009-01-05 10:19:18

The dog barks because it is serving a life sentence in isolation cell. They go nuts like that.

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Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 13:15:24

“‘They’re saying ‘This isn’t fun anymore,’ Gage said of retiring executives. ‘They’ve been doing it for 30 years, and they’re saying they don’t want to go through another one of these downturns.’”

When destroying ppl’s lives ceases to be fun, time to retire to Florida. I wish them the best, and feel sorry they had to endure a down year. No one should have to live through something like that. It’s almost as bad as not finding an affordable home for your family.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-03 15:57:10

Huh?

The quote was talking about senior management. Are you saying that all senior management destroy’s people’s lives?

How anti-free market can one get? Jeez!

Comment by Mo Money
2009-01-03 18:18:22

“How anti-free market can one get?”

What free market are you speaking of ? The one where executives are given string free bail out packages for gross incompetence and fraud ?

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-03 19:57:42

“Given” - from whom?

Shareholders. If you don’t like the bennies the insiders get, then don’t follow your financial adviser’s advice, because he or she will tell you to buy stocks.

But then you should walk the walk and boycott stocks forever.

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-03 20:00:41

addendum - I reread “Mo Moneys” post. “Mo Money” assumes all companies are getting bailouts. Are all U.S. corporations getting bailouts?

Those that are getting bailouts - are their stock prices going up? If they go up, shareholders (401k owners, IRA investors) are profiting. I suppose “Mo Money” does not read personal finance text books to find out that equities tend to outperform any other investment in any 20 year period.

 
Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 21:05:45

Bill - my comment had nothing to do with free markets and everything to do with ppl that treated debt leverage and easy credit as a fun game and now want to bitch and moan because the house of cards collapsed. Nah, no lives destroyed because of that ride.

 
 
Comment by Tim
2009-01-03 20:54:10

You have to read the context. Easy money = fun. Non-easy money = equals no fun and whining. Since we are talking about senior management who only want to play when its fun - ya I think much of their fun was riding on the backs of the others, and that is coming from from someone who represents senior management. Making money in a normal market requires effort. If its easy and fun, there is always someone else having less fun on the ride.

I am all for hard work and great ideas. Screwing America for every last dollar to fund early retirement - not so much.

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Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 04:08:09

Well said, Tim.

 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:40:19

I dunno, Bill. The executives at my company are mostly dumb as rocks. The same, of course, can be said for most of the other people as well (in the world, not just my company), but all those people don’t command upwards of $200k/year in salary and then expect large bonuses to boot, along with 6 weeks/year vacation time, expensive company “functions” just for execs, and super special stock grants for tax purposes.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-04 08:37:53

At one company where I work, yes, most management is useless. But at the company in Maryland where I worked most of 2008 they are very good. I just don’t like generalizations in any way. Generalizations are a form of collectivism.

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Comment by not a gator
2009-01-03 16:00:09

I like your style, Tim.

 
 
Comment by doug-home
2009-01-03 13:21:16

Most of the materials used in the famous FEMA trailers was made in China

 
Comment by Spook
2009-01-03 13:37:21

Here is simple question seeking a simple answer:

Is there anything that limits the governments ability to produce “bailouts?”

Could the government end welfare by bailing out all the recipients?

Could government end unemployment by sending a check to all unemployed people and telling them, “since you have money, it means you have a job?”

Where is the government getting the money for the bailouts?

Comment by Big V
2009-01-04 00:45:00

Nobody knows where they’re getting the money. They have assumed that someone will lend it to us, and then we will HAVE TO pay it back through higher taxes FOR A LONG TIME.

Comment by homepop
2009-01-05 13:39:09

The money is coming from the Treasury’s printing press, which is setting us up for a major inflation problem in the future.

 
 
 
Comment by aqius
2009-01-03 13:38:58

leslie appleton-young is still getting media coverage? what a laugh!

the only thing I’d have to say to her is:

” How ’bout some bacon, to go with that egg on yer face . . . ? “

 
Comment by ACH
2009-01-03 14:47:11

“‘People in the industry knew that these loans spelled trouble,’ said Powers. ‘For Alan Greenspan to have the nerve to say that he had no idea? Give me a break; lowly loan officers like myself knew.’”

Is he calling Mr Magoo a Liar? Now, now…

Roidy

 
Comment by Bob G.
2009-01-03 15:32:37

Alan Greenspan has a lot of nerve. He set the world on a path of economic destruction without batting an eye. As long as he was invited to swank cocktail parties, hailed a genius and a maestro, and able to exit before the implosion, everything was alright by him.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-03 17:34:32

Yeah, I think the old sonofab*tch knew exactly what was coming and thought he’d get out and be all adored and worshipped while his successor took all the crap. I think it shocks the bejabers out of him that people actually know he messed up big time.

Old blubber lips.

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 04:12:35

So true, palmy. Greenspan is at the center of this crisis. He never let us experience a recession that was long enough or severe enough to wash out the excesses, teach some people a few lessons, and enable us to build up from a clearer, more stable foundation.

Just mask all the problems with more debt, and the fools will party on, congratulating themselves because of all the “wealth” and “growth” that’s being created.

 
 
Comment by matthew
2009-01-03 19:15:17

You got that right Bob.. Greenspan is one of the worst of the worst offenders in this debacle, this scam, this disaster… maestro my ass.. The only thing he’s a maestro of is in creating his image and bilking Congress and the American public… he’s a complete schmuck and grossly incompetent… I don’t think he’s even that bright..

Comment by oxide
2009-01-03 22:04:10

Greenspan is one of the worst of the worst offenders in this debacle,

Or as was famously said, “Greenspan is the biggest political hack in Washington.”

Comment by santacruzsux
2009-01-03 22:58:36

The system was doomed from the start. The Greenspan fed was a massive accelerant for the ever growing debt fires. Poor Bernanke and the boys are trying to figure out a way of putting out all these fires before they burn themselves out. The big question for me is how are we better off in the long run? If they succeed or if they fail.

The adventurous part of me wants to see failure.

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Comment by wmbz
2009-01-03 15:58:24

No. 2, that the small businesses that are struggling can benefit from the bailouts….Some small business are barely staying open. My hope would be that they could show a profit - that they wouldn’t have to worry about closing their business. Third, that the unemployment rate will decline, and we see less people laid off from jobs.’ - Gary Lawson, executive director of the West Covina Chamber of Commerce.”

Mr. Lawson can hope all he wants but the fact that is too many people are turning a blind eye or just don’t have the ability to grasp the situation(to much faith in guvmint). There will be continued job losses, there will be more businesses shuttering their doors. It is going to happen, the sooner the small business leaders come to grips with the actual situation, perhaps they will adjust and build more sound businesses in the future.

Nah, who am I trying to kid, they’ll turn to central planning to cure their ills.

Comment by GH
2009-01-04 01:58:45

Small business employs some 60% of Americans. Ignoring this group and allowing them to fail will have disasterous consequences, both in terms of unemployment and in terms of the massive debt defaults which will surely follow. It is fine to bail out a few of the “too big to fail” businesses, but then there is the other side of the equation “too many to fail” which is where small business falls into. I see smaller businesses closing shop at record rates here in Southern California right now, having lost considerable business and often financing sources.

 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-01-03 16:25:57

Dear Muir:

Thank you too so much for your help. Your thoughts re “75 sq. ft” makes a lot of sense. I continue to be impressed by both the wisdom and humanity of this board.

Grateful, I am,

Greg

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-03 18:20:05

From the recordnet article Ben posted:

“‘The lower interest rates, combined with lower home prices, have brought many first-time home buyers into the market,’ he said. ‘We are seeing many investors entering the market as well.’”
————————

While I’m not a fan of market intervention, if the govt’s goal were really to increase home ownership, they would drop all incentives and subsidies for second and investment homes, so that residents would be able to buy their homes instead of rent them from infestors.

This is especially true in California, where Prop 13 protects even speculative and investment purchases from rising property taxes. I LOVE Prop 13 for many reasons, but only for primary residences (an exception might also be made for a single commercial property owned/controlled by a person or entity, but any kind of transfer should reasses the value for prop tax purposes).

It’s funny that people were up in arms about speculators in the oil market, but for some reason, we don’t have the same anger WRT the housing market, even though housing is an even more basic necessity. IMHO, basic necessities and a contry’s finite natural resources should not be controlled by a handful of private entities.

Comment by cactus
2009-01-03 19:55:28

“It’s funny that people were up in arms about speculators in the oil market, but for some reason, we don’t have the same anger WRT the housing market”

most people have to buy oil often maybe every day but don’t have to buy homes but a few times in their lives. Owning a home in many areas was a great inflation hedge.. until it wasn’t

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 04:15:40

True, but they have to pay for those homes every month when they write out the mortgage and property tax payments. Lower prices would be a very positive thing, IMHO.

 
 
 
Comment by matthew
2009-01-03 19:26:27

My idea of government intervention is for the government to make it so unbelievably painful to break the law that it scares away all the crooks on Wall Street… would there be anyone left ? Don’t know, but I’d love to see the clamps tightened so severely that they could barely breath..

Who pays the bill for the SEC by the way ?
Who pays the bill for all the lawyers and investigators now hired by Congress and the SEC to look into this scam/disaster?
Who should be bailing out Detroit?

I’d put the screws on so tight to those criminals on Wall Street that if a company is caught (anyone within the company that is) of illegal trading and the compay’s CEO, CIO, CFO and anyone else I could tag would lose their licenses and not be allowed to work in financial markets or trade for a min of 10 years.. And any proof that they had any knowledge of the illegal trade would result in min of 10 years in prison w/no parol.. That’ll clean up the BS… All paid for by the profits and proceeds of Wall Street too.. Not a cent of taxpayer money.. To me, that’s the kind of “govenment intervention” and legislation those crooks deserve… and I felt that way before Madoff’s scum rose to the surface..

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-04 04:16:53

Love it!

 
Comment by matthew
2009-01-04 06:35:04

It’s about responsibility … you want the big paychecks and big bonuses there boyz, well then, you should get to feel what it’s like to be really (really) responsible then… responsibile for your business and all the people who work for you… really responsible.. you are not right now of course, not even close, but you damn well should be for the money you make…

therein lies the problem the risk - reward ratio on Wall Street is so far out of whack it ain’t funny and allows all the scum and criminals to profit at the expense of the rest of the country…

too bad there ain’t enough kahoneys in Congress, it looks like, to balance the equation..

 
Comment by steve
2009-01-04 16:38:27

Nice idea Mathew, but the biggest criminals are those who are supposed to be watching this stuff to begin with. So this idea will never happen.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-04 07:31:47

On owning vs. renting: “My parents had no mortgage or payments except for maintenance and property tax for many years. Of course they bought and sold at a profit throughout their lives, but I am not sure this model works any more.”

It works if there is no housing bubble. The bubble turned a good thing for those looking to settle down — homeownership — into a bad thing. That is the disaster everyone is forgetting about. The sooner it deflates the better.

 
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