Chain Of Fools
The Denver Post reports from Colorado. “Mike Kraft, a Realtor in Loveland, said first-time buyers have an edge in the current marketplace. The property they buy won’t have inflated equity, Kraft said, and many sellers are willing to help with closing costs. ‘It’s a buyer’s market. There’s a lot of inventory out there,’ he said.”
“George Todd, co-owner of Todd Realty Group, said house hunters need to keep the resale value of properties in mind as they shop around. It might sound counter-intuitive to be thinking about selling a home you haven’t even bid on, but it’s a reality homebuyers need to face, Todd said. ‘You want a house that will appeal to the most amount of buyers on the market at any given time,’ Todd said.”
“That doesn’t mean you should forget the home of your dreams, but understand it could take longer to sell when the time comes, he said. So consider a home’s location, asking price and floor plan carefully before placing a bid. Beyond that, first-timers need to be as patient as feasible during their first home-shopping trips. ‘I would be loathe to let (clients) write an offer until they’ve seen 20-25 houses. . . . If you need to see 50 houses to find the right one, that’s what you have to do, he said.”
The Rocky Mountain News from Colorado. “Several sectors of the Colorado economy are struggling and bracing for a tough 2009, but none is in worse shape than construction. After an expected drop of more than 4 percent in 2008, construction employment across the state could fall by another 7 percent in 2009, according to a forecast by the University of Colorado’s Leeds School of Business. That’s a loss of more than 18,000 construction jobs over a two-year period.”
“‘People are worried about their jobs, and what has happened to the rest of the country is happening here,’ said Mike Rinner, executive VP of the Genesis Group, who was part of the group that made the projections. ‘Companies are having trouble financing new growth opportunities, and that has an impact on outlook and expectations, and to some degree Coloradans are overleveraged and carrying too much debt.’”
The Arizona Republic. “Home builders face a struggle of Darwinian proportions in 2009 that experts say will shape the industry into a smaller, but smarter, animal. The pool of Valley home builders is expected to shrink considerably this year, as the prolonged flood of foreclosures pushes even more builders out of the business. ‘We’re going to see natural selection of the building industry,’ Fulton Homes President Doug Fulton said.”
“The Tempe-based builder recently formed a team of ‘Fulton Foreclosure Specialists,’ whose job is to talk prospective customers out of buying a foreclosed home, and if that doesn’t work, to sell them a foreclosed home. The idea is to get banks to appoint Fulton’s team members as listing agents for bank-owned homes that meet a certain standard of quality, Fulton said.”
“He’d still prefer customers to buy one of his new homes, but Fulton said he realizes that’s not always going to happen. ‘These homes are selling for less than we can build them for,’ he said.”
“The median new-home price has fallen much further - 10 percent further - than the median price for an existing home, said analyst Jim Belfiore of Phoenix. But it’s one specific category of resale homes that has presented builders with nearly unbeatable competition: so-called distress sales. Distress sales are those involving what Belfiore calls ‘upside-down parties.’”
“One former builder said the supply-side problem began more than a year ago, as the loan-to-value ratio fell on land slated for development, and banks required builders to inject more capital into the projects or face foreclosure. For some, that added pressure was too much to bear. The Arizona Department of Real Estate maintains a list of struggling and failed home-builder and developer projects that currently includes 38 bankruptcies and 85 ‘projects in financial trouble’ due to foreclosure, bankruptcy, contractor lawsuits and other concerns.”
“T2 Homes President Reed Porter said he remains optimistic about 2009, but it’s not the five-years-ago sort of optimism. ‘We all have a different outlook than we did in the roaring 2000s,’ he said.”
The Daily Courier from Arizona. “Caught up in the housing market crash, local governments rushed to cut everything from employees to electricity use as revenues plummeted in 2008. Prescott Valley was issuing as many as 143 single-family home building permits per month this century, but in 2008 the monthly count never even hit 20. Chino Valley cut this year’s budget a whopping 69 percent and laid off 13 employees in April.”
“City Budget and Finance Director Mark Woodfill said the economic slowdown began in about the first quarter of 2006, and basically has been on a downward trend ever since. Norwood projects a turnaround by about summer 2010 - still more than a year away. And even then, he said he doesn’t expect dramatic changes, because ‘people’s behaviors have changed.’”
“Greg Fister, manager of economic development for the Town of Prescott Valley, says the economic downturn is unlike anything he has experienced. ‘I’ve never seen the number of projects that have been postponed or cancelled in the past year,’ he said.”
“Prescott Valley collected $4.1 million in sales tax revenues from July through October, down 9 percent from $4.5 million during the same period in 2007-08, said Economic Development Manager Greg Fister. The direst news came on the home front. The town issued only one permit for single-family homes in September.”
The Spectrum from Utah. “The Washington County housing market continues to strain the local economy. Washington County witnessed a job contraction of 6.1 percent in November when compared with the same month last year, said Department of Workforce Services Chief Economist Mark Knold.”
“‘I’ve never seen anything like this in (Washington) County,’ Knold said. ‘Unprecedented is probably a good way to describe it.’”
“Following the national trend, Carol Sapp, executive officer of the Southern Utah Home Builders Association, said many builders are struggling through the recession. ‘There is no doubt at all that there are companies in the housing industry that are experiencing extreme hardships,’ Sapp said. ‘We are feeling pain.’”
“She said the problem is not diminished demand, but recently imposed lending restrictions from banks and a wealth of bank-owned properties competing with new home sales. ‘It has tightened up in the finance industry,’ she said. ‘That is really where we have the issue. Without the finance, you are not able to sell these homes.’”
The Salt Lake Tribune from Utah. “Is the economy in Utah going to get better anytime soon? Probably not quickly enough to suit most folks. In Utah, in 2009, ‘We’re still going to have more layoffs and more home price depreciation,’ said Mark Knold, chief economist with the Utah Department of Workforce Services.”
“Much of his prediction stems from timing. Utah’s once-red-hot real estate market started to cool in summer 2007, about two years after other states’ markets faltered. And Utah’s economy didn’t really fall into recession territory until a couple of months ago.”
“There probably will be more declines in the values of homes priced above $400,000, said Wells Fargo & Co. economist Kelly Matthews. If mortgage rates remain below 5 percent, values of homes priced at under $400,000 — especially those below $300,000 — may stabilize this year, he said.”
“But there’s no guarantee. Salt Lake City real estate agent Randall Wall said that in recent weeks he has seen price concessions being made all the way down to the $150,000 range, although the lower the asking price, the less likely sellers are to take a hit to get their property sold.”
The Pahrump Valley Times from Nevada. “Developers announced ambitious projects in 2008 to build hotels, casinos, shopping malls, restaurants and housing developments. Many have fallen short. Focus Property Group announced it was restructuring its debt and reassessing the timing of the Pahrump project back in February. The county commission approved a development agreement allowing Focus to build up to 5,800 homes in September 2006. At that time, company President John Ritter expected home construction to begin in 2009.”
“‘All our projects in Pahrump are essentially on hold. We’re still a very big believer in Pahrump, and as soon as the market comes back we want to be part of it,’ said Mark Fiorentino, Focus senior vice-president of governmental affairs.”
The Reno Gazette Journal from Nevada. “Sales of existing single-family homes in Washoe County in November saw a significant jump over last year, but new home sales saw a steep drop as falling median prices and a glut in inventory continue to put pressure on the homebuilding industry.”
“Although Washoe County’s $220,000 median price for existing homes in November was relatively flat compared with the previous month, it represents a 30.2 percent decrease from last year. Prices still have a way to fall and are clearly not bottomed out yet, said Brian Kaiser, a housing and real estate analyst with the Center for Regional Studies, who expects some additional price decreases in 2009 coupled with stagnant new construction.”
“Existing condominiums fared even worse in terms of price, down 50 percent from last year with a median price of $100,000. Existing condo sales volume is also down 31.6 percent month-over-month and 13.3 percent year-over-year.”
“New-home sales also continue to struggle, with only 25 sales reported in Washoe County in November. The sales represent a 53.7 percent decline from the previous month and a ’staggering’ 82.9 percent drop from November 2007, Kaiser said. One bright spot for new homes is median sales price, which was at $351,958. The price is up 26.8 percent from September and 4.3 percent from the same period last year. But the jury is still out on what those numbers exactly mean, experts said.”
“‘I think the small sample size has more to do with (the median price increase) than any inherent strength that it might imply in new homes,’ Kaiser said. ‘It’s worth watching, though, to see if the new homes in the coming months can continue holding their own on price. I don’t expect there to be much of a positive change in the direction of the market in early 2009. Foreclosures are still increasing and flooding the market with bargain-priced homes, and I believe that it will be extremely difficult for new home builders to compete with that market.’”
The Review Journal from Nevada. “Local housing statistics released by the Greater Las Vegas Association of Realtors show local home sales more than doubling compared to the same time last year. In November, GLVAR reported sales increasing 125.5 percent for homes and 142.0 percent for condominiums and town homes, compared to November 2007. This follows even greater year-over-year sales increases in September and October.”
“Two out of every three homes being sold in Southern Nevada are owned by lenders.”
“The median price of a single-family home sold in the Las Vegas area decreased by 2.1 percent in November, from $190,000 in October to $186,000 in November. That’s down 32.0 percent from November of 2007. For condos and town homes, the median sales price decreased 17.2 percent from $109,575 in October to $90,750 in November. That’s down 49.6 percent from November 2007.”
“Las Vegas is not just a place where people are born and live. It is an enterprise. It is a deal people enter, a set of givens agreed upon: More is better. Biggest is best. To live in Las Vegas is to stake your future on this enterprise — for better or worse. For the past 20 years, it has been for better.”
“It was a place that not only believed its own hype, but depended on it. And so, it has been a shock as, quietly and slowly, everything has changed. Like many U.S. cities, Las Vegas is watching its economy reel. Home values have plummeted. Foreclosures have exploded. Unemployment is the highest it’s been in at least 20 years.”
“For the first time in decades, the population has stopped growing. Casino projects are on hold. Planes full of free-spending tourists are landing with less frequency. Long the embodiment of American confidence, the city is now in limbo.”
“‘Jackpot Town!’ the headline read. And above it was the smiling face of Jesse Grice. He was just 27, six years into his career as an Elvis impersonator. A young Elvis Presley. A fit, fresh, gold lame Elvis, on the cover of Time Magazine. As he tells it now, even then in November 1998, he could not believe his luck.”
“After years of seeing his home’s value soar, Grice took a gamble, using equity in his house to invest in a downtown bar, hoping for long-term security. As the bar’s business slowed and he started to fall behind on mortgage payments, his Graceland began losing value. The bank took it back in October. Grice sold his collection of memorabilia on the front lawn. He put the Graceland gates in storage and moved away. ‘Look how many years we were up, up, up, and the ride had to end at some point. Well, it just ended,’ he said.”
“Donald Youshaw and his girlfriend, Bernie Jones, heard the call. ‘Come out West. Get a job. They’re booming. They’re hiring,’ they remember being told. ‘Casinos are going up. The housing market is going up.’”
“In 2002, the couple drove across the country. Youshaw, along with his mother, a retired nurse, bought a three-bedroom stucco home. His neighbor was gobbling up investment properties as home values headed north. Youshaw imagined he might try his hand at real estate, but first he needed money to spruce up the home he already owned.”
“His mother saw an ad on television for a refinancing program. She called the number and got a new loan with ease and little clear explanation. But the loan came with hidden fees and higher monthly payments, and Youshaw fell $25,000 in arrears before the bank foreclosed.”
“Today he and Jones spend their days in a home they rent just blocks from the one he lost. Youshaw has pawned jewelry and even took out a payday loan at 200 percent interest to pay the gas bill. Stunned at how quickly his fortunes turned, Youshaw says, ‘I’m living like I did when I was 19.’”
“Terry Jicinsky, (is) the senior VP of marketing for the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority. As smaller numbers of visitors come, off 10 percent in October from a year earlier, the marketers keep adjusting their pitch: casting Las Vegas as an easy last-minute destination, then as affordable, then as an escape for ‘crazy times.’”
“But bad times? No one here planned for that. ‘Because our growth cycle has been going on for 20 years, you know, for many people, myself included, that’s a career. That is the entire length of your experience,’ Jicinsky says. ‘We have casino executives that started working in their 20s and 30s that are now in their 40s and 50s, where all they knew was double-digit growth year after year after year.’”
“As Jicinsky speaks, the bustle of the convention floor floats into his office. Today’s convention, a gambling industry summit, has been full of glum news of frugal gamblers and tightfisted lenders. Just now, aspiring bar bands are auditioning for club owners below. A woman’s voice intrudes on Jicinsky’s thoughts. ‘Chain, chain, chain … chain of fools,’ she sings.”
‘Prescott Valley collected $4.1 million in sales tax revenues from July through October, down 9 percent from $4.5 million during the same period in 2007-08, said Economic Development Manager Greg Fister. The direst news came on the home front. The town issued only one permit for single-family homes in September.’
I have been making the point that relatively unknown bubbles in western places like Prescott and PV are going to be hit hard, and this statistic is a stunner. I can only imagine what the unemployment is like. I drove around and looked at many foreclosures up there in the past 2 months. Same old story; half million and up. All counting on equity nomads, and having little to do with the local economy. A golf course doesn’t pay the mortgage folks.
Same thing in Fl, rural farming area in Lake County that was auctioned off by the county at 3K an acre in 1999.
Fast forward 2005 and golf courses in what up until that time had been the middle of nowhere.
Others here know exactly what areas I speak of.
It was a worldwide mad craze.
That’s why the sensitive lands program that took a drubbing on this blog yesterday is actually an asset to the state, taxpayers and visitors who enjoy Old Florida.
Yes, buying the lands costs money, and it may be a luxury that Tallahassee may not be able to afford.
Yeap,
I did see something about a year ago that was heartening.
A new orange grove!
A cleared area that had been sitting there for a while.
Unless people have seen old Florida (still exists here and there) they can’t imagine how beautiful it is.
Rolling green hills in Lake County being destroyed for cookie cutter homes, a heritage sold out for a few silver coins.
Completely agree Muir. At one point I asked out loud, “how many golf courses do we really need,” although as a non-golfer my guess necessarily would be a much smaller number.
Worldwide for sure.
http://www.3news.co.nz/video/Once-booming-Dubai-goes-bust/tabid/369/articleID/85922/Default.aspx?ArticleID=85922#video
We drove the old Altamount Highway yesterday to visit a relative that lives off of Highway 120. Noticed the Moutain House Golf Course, on the old Altamount Highway in Livermore is now closed. Another golf course that was built with the belief that thousands of the equity nomads would come to play. This golf course was built between the windmills, cow and sheep farms, and in the middle of nowhere. Windy most of the time and hot, hot, hot during the summer.
Maybe the people owning the golf course believes these words are always true: “If I build it, they will come.” Ha!
golf course owners should file for govt bailout. the mad(e)off ponzie will affect golf course business bigtime IMO. and hey, Big Al Gore….stop breathing, you are contributing to global warming.
Having read the Las Vegas article above, my first question was to ask when the gambling industry will ask for a bailout, because of all the jobs it provides and such.
excellent point. Las Vegas is more honest than Wall Street. At least they call it what it is gambling….not investing.
For three straight years, more golf courses have closed than have opened on an annual basis in the US. Look for this trend to continue. Golf is a dying sport, and one that is heavily dependent upon the older, wealthy types. Not only are they cutting back, but younger folks are not following in their footsteps. High priced golf courses are taking it on the chin. In fact, many once private courses are going public trying to increase revenue, all the while lowering greens fees. I’m short golf (that’s a joke cause I don’t gamble).
Bantering Bear,
Very, -very- interesting stat! I had no idea, but it makes perfect sense. Years ago I had a client that owned bowling alleys in OH. He said it was hell watching what had been one of our most popular pastimes go down the tubes.
His assessment was that fundamentally, Americans had changed. With all of the entertainment at your fingertips, who needed the commitment of signing up for an 8 week league? Wow, who’d have thought that golf would be on the same trendline as drive-in movies and malt shops?
Mr. Bear, the soon-to-be resident of the White House is an avid golfer. By summer, when he has vanquished the financial crisis and the economy is humming again, you’ll see him teeing off with the likes of Tiger Woods. That should give the sport a boost.
Yeah, in 2007 I played perhaps 10 times - I enjoy the game. But even then, I wasn’t playing places where 18 holes was more than $50. And in 2008 I played exactly zero times. Part was a job change (more work and no golfing buds) but the other part was that I just don’t have money to spend like that. I used to play in the rain when younger, for free, after having scooped up great balls from the nearby ravine. So it’s not a lack of love for the game. Just too much to do, and no money for it.
Ben,
We’re beginning to see this in some parts of the Bay Area, but with all the stock option money in the past, it’s hard to tell what the long term effect will be around here.
My husband and I saw a $180,000 Bentley in the Target parking lot today. Maybe the start of long term effect?
That was just Paris out looking for one of those ” Wall Marts” she has heard about . . .
Prescott, yeah. At least there is a “there” there. Come out and look at Camp Verde. The vultures are circling the vacant tract shacks out here. At least Prescott has that California second homer and retiree money sloshing around - small Arizona towns like Camp Verde have nothing but pathetic small town newspaper publications trying to generate local excitement in their editorial about how pickup truck bubbaville made Western Times “Best of” list for God knows what reason. Eastern Europe or Central Arizona? I don’t know - flip a coin.
Correction: Not “Western Times”. Should read “True West”. Supposedly that publication has 190,000 readers scattered around the world. I wait with baited breathe for them to arrive in our town with fist fulls of cash spend to rescue us
At least Eastern Europe has beautiful gardens and architectural treasures.
All the builders went after the high end. For most of the developments, there was never a prayer that they could sell out. Some small time developer just went belly up about 5 miles away from me here in WA. He built 2 spec homes on 2+ acre lots, and was trying to sell those as well as the remaining eight 2+ acre parcels (It was 25 acres which he subdivided with a road easement). He never sold anything. Both houses and all the lots went back to the bank. He was asking $399k, but that’s way more than the average person can afford.
Just up the road from that, there’s a development of “luxury” homes on 5 acres. They’ve actually managed to sell a couple. But, they’ve got several sitting empty and vacant. There are no buyers. The sign used to say “starting in the high $400k’s” but was since changed to just advertise homes without the prices so I assume they’ve come down. Regardless, I don’t think this one is going to survive either. Usually full payment is due on the completed house 18 months from start of construction, so many are already due, or coming due real soon. These guys totally missed the boat on what the general population can afford.
Prescott is for retired people from CA. Now if CA can’t pay its bills maybe its workers can’t retire ? retired CA government workers like fireman , police, etc. I don’t think most private sector workers in CA will ever be able to retire.
And doesn’t CA go after ex-CA wage earners for taxes even if they move out of state ? Go luck with that.
“Following the national trend, Carol Sapp, executive officer of the Southern Utah Home Builders Association, said many builders are struggling through the recession.
“She said the problem is not diminished demand, but recently imposed lending restrictions from banks and a wealth of bank-owned properties competing with new home sales. ‘It has tightened up in the finance industry,’ she said.
At least Ms. Sapp is aptly named, sorry lady tightened finance is not the problem, the reasons would fall on deaf ears, she has no grasp of what is going on anyway.
Technically, it is tightened finance…. Those darn investors that, after getting slaughtered buying MBS backed by toxic loans, simply refuse to keep buying the toxic waste.
If investors were just willing to keep eating massive losses on the toxic loans, than all would be okay. It is all their fault.
Did banks keep and carry most of their loans in the olden days pre-bubble? Recent HBB article quoted a banker told to sell (via MBS) 90% of everything he wrote. I wonder how that compares to percentage banks sold off in 1960s or 70s? As you say, banks can no longer sell sub par loans, so they now are forced keep what they loan and hence tigher underwriting.
“It was a place that not only believed its own hype, but depended on it.
Interesting. People still believe “they are different.”
Every place depends on hype. NYC has food, excitement, culture! Montana is secluded, rugged, an outdoorsman’s paradise! Florida has sunshine, beaches, and fishing!
Yes, people go to Vegas to gamble. It would make sense, then, to hype gambling. I love how all of these people are creating meaning beyond what is actually happening, as if one place in particular leads to different behavior.
Sorry, less money, no Vegas-gambly
Sorry, less money, no Florida-fishy
Sorry, less money, no Montana-hunty
It’s a bust people, don’t over-think it! Leave that to the professional ruminators at HBB!
‘But bad times? No one here planned for that. ‘Because our growth cycle has been going on for 20 years, you know, for many people, myself included, that’s a career. That is the entire length of your experience,’ Jicinsky says. ‘We have casino executives that started working in their 20s and 30s that are now in their 40s and 50s, where all they knew was double-digit growth year after year after year.’
This is what makes sizing up the problem in LV and other western housing markets so difficult. The housing bubble came at a time when the economy should have been cooling off. So it blew out any rational level of building and planning. What will happen to Reno and LV? IMO, no one can say because it’s impossible to know what the natural level of population and income should be. Throw in the fact that land prices are still being artificially supported by government land hoarding; this kills the golden goose of cheap housing. I’ll say it again; the BLM and other govt. entities should have a fire sale to encourage growth, and current FBs be damned. I think eventually this should become the conventional demand, as there isn’t any other way out of this mess.
The holding of entities like BLM really are a giant cloud over most of the west.
If you are ever in Boise you will notice that any development east of town halts abruptly at the city limits. The reason? It’s BLM land. All BLM has to do is sell some off to private parties and the local land values will fall - although there still is the restraint that ex-BLM land will have zero to slim water rights.
In Arizona, we have a lot of Fed entities that sit on millions of acres, while working people can’t afford houses. And then there is the AZ state trust. Land in the west is being held hostage by a public/private collusion. IMO, it should be broken up. 50 acre ranches for everyone!
Blm’s idea of management appears to be a do nothing approach.so many acres they supposeivly manage in the forestland are a major fire hazard.They always say they are out of money.then hand it over to private citizens to manage.
“Land in the west is being held hostage by a public/private collusion.”
The politicians certainly ought to be able to figure out a way to get individual households to kick back some campaign contributions for handing out land. Why are they so reliant on big developers? Perhaps it is easier to milk contributions out of a smaller group of corporate entities than to get them from individual households.
AZ is not all desert, I was told it has one of the largest Ponderorsa forests in the USA. Maybe the Federal government means to keep that part and let its citizens live in the desert ? Queen Creek homes for everyone!!
Yuck my BIL rents in Johnson Ranch 800 a month from a San Jose RE speculator.
I’ll take the 50 arces up near the rim thanks
“Land in the west is being held hostage by a public/private collusion.”
——————
Yes, and the big developers are just as guilty as the BLM. Because of the big developers, huge swaths of land are hoarded until prices rise to levels that they can break up tiny parcels, put 4,000 sf crappy McMansions on 6,000 lots and sell them for way over their true value…IF the land couldn’t be hoarded in the first place.
IMHO, I’d like to see some restrictions on ownership of large parcels, where the first priority goes to primary residences for local people. Pay the developers to develop the land, but hold it in public ownership, then sell the lots to individuals so they can build custom homes on nicer lots. IOW, the developers should be paid for their work, but should not gain any money from the purchase/holding/sale of the land.
It’ll never happen, but I can dream!
If developers had to pay for sewers, stormwater, roads, schools, police substations, fire stations, street lights, power lines, traffic signals, water purification, sewage treatment, and marginal power production up front…
It would be less profitable…
And there would be less stupid developments.
CA Renter,
That’s an idea I hope catches on. If you look at the height of the bubble, a lot of builders were “makin’ money” just flipping lots to smaller builders after they’d bought up the lots just weeks earlier!
Is THAT the kind of speculative environment we want to stake the nation’s future on? Is this what we want to stake our ability to be globally competitive on?
As has been stated many times before, the rise in the price of housing is directly related to skyrocketing land prices. While the price of building a home is somewhat static, the value of the land is what’s much more volatile.
All the builders/developers went nuts loading up on as much land as they possibly could, buying at higher and higher prices. Five or so ears ago, when I was looking at raw land, usually 5 or 10 acre parcels, I was absolutely shocked at what people were paying and, at the time, didn’t understand how it could ‘pencil out’ for them. Turns out it rarely did. Only with zoning changes, and building and selling overpriced McMansions on tiny lots with the help of suicide loans could builders recoup the ridiculous sums they threw at the original landowners.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but as the whole thing has fallen apart, it seems it’s going to take years to sort out. I’m not seeing capitulation in raw land prices as I am house prices. It’s like they’re stuck at a permanently high plateau. I know it’s not sustainable, but I wonder what the catalyst will be for it to correct and make sense once again from a purchase perspective. Perhaps it will be a flooding of the market of new, inexpensive land as Ben suggests as a solution. I don’t think we’ll see a bottom until the $500k per acre wishing prices have disappeared entirely.
BanterinBear,
Robert Schiller had some wonderful quotes from about this time last year. I’m paraphrasing here but I -believe- the article was: “It’s Official, ( it’s a LAND Bubble! )”
What Bob noticed was that there was a huge disparity in the valuations placed on the land ( that sat u-n-d-e-r the house ) and the house itself! When he looked at the insurance replacement value on the structure itself he was truly amazed. Hey! Wait a minute, in how many cases is the land itself rendered useless and uninhabitable? And… how am I going to replace the house that burned down with this scrawny check?
Many older posters have noted that they’ve watched lot prices explode higher than what we paid for our 1st home altogether! Is the land really ‘that’ much better these days?
You guys are exactly right, and this is why I have no sympathy when builders/developers claim they “cannot afford to build” at these lower prices. The ONLY reason they “can’t afford to build” is because they overpaid for the land in the first place.
While I have very little hope that our politicians will do the right thing — most local political “fraud” is committed in real estate — perhaps some honest politician with integrity will see the light and come up with a workable solution.
The large developers/builders have destroyed the country with their hideous McMansion tracts.
Vegas ???…
The average American FB and BF DOESN’T NEED VEGAS !
They already “Bet the Farm” on housing and Wall Street…and LOST
“Sorry, less money, no Montana-hunty”
Yes. Things are tighter for me this year than last and it’s going to be tough to shell out for an out-of-state deer tag for WY in the Fall. Goats were only $36 last year, but I don’t like the taste as much as a venison burger with 10% pork suet. Mmmmm… pork fat.
MrBubble
“His mother saw an ad on television for a refinancing program.”
Unless you’re buying “Blendy Pens” or some other trinket - responding to ads on TV is generally a bad idea. This is a lack of due diligence and the blame rests with them. What ever happened to comparative shopping? Doing research? Getting opinions?
Sorry, while I suppose someone could fault the bogus practices of that lender - it doesn’t make up for a lack of critical thinking on the part of the borrower.
If one swims with sharks one should not act surprised when bitten.
Are you implying the “Sham-Wow” isn’t what it’s cracked up to be?
“We can’t wait all day, so call NOW”. Someone needs to shoot the Sham WOW guy!
wait theres more !!!!! If you order now……..
“And it’s made in Germany! You know the Germans are known for quality products”
SCAM WOW for sure.
“What ever happened to comparative shopping?”
There is nothing that compares to the Chia Pet.
Ch-Ch-Ch-Chia.
At the risk of sounding like a total doofus, can I just say that I liked the Chia Herb Garden? Yes, the chia dogs and heads are ridiculous, but the herb garden is actually a neat deal for 10 bucks.
I dunno….how about the ‘pet rock”?
The manual that came with the “Pet Rock” was hilarious.
But I wanna cut my hair with a vacuum cleaner — I gotta get a FlowBee!
What could possibly go wrong with that?
Never mind — my Tony Robbins tapes will inspire me.
Thank you for the laff, Kyle.
For a time I rented a tear-down house that had belonged to an eccentric widow and her cat collection. The storage garage was a cornucopia of tabloid “special offers,” Remove-warts-in-7-days nostrums and remedies, and K-TEL paraphernalia from the ’60’s-80’s. I literally thought of opening a museum with all the stuff she’d squirreled away. Her heirs wanted nothing to do with it, of course– as she’d squandered a good portion of their inheritance on said items– and told me to help myself. As I sorted through the shelves and boxes, even I was astounded at how much utter crap people can be coerced into buying in the late hours of the evening.
However, I scored an in-the-box Veg-O-Matic, the aforementioned hair device, (which I used on my dog to marginal effect,) and the best damned personal massage device ever invented out of it. Alas, this was before the advent of Ebay…..
Did you find an inside-the-shell egg scrambler by Ronco?
Absolutely one of the most useful devices ever sold on late night TV. Works like a charm. Consider yourself lucky if you can find it.
How about a BowFlex? Just twenty minutes a day, three times a week! I spend more time than that on this blog.
Personal massage device, hmmmm.
Salad Shooter!
I feel like Vince might of had a future at the Treasury Dept if we weren’t about to have a new administration..
Who listens to their mothers anyway ?
My Mom always swore that my older brother and I were headed for life in Leavenworth Federal Pen when we were 7 and 5 yrs old.
This Christmas, we were “Joys to her Heart” that could do no wrong.
Go figure
It is too late to save the shirts of many Las Vegas tycoons — perdition and death to them! — but the least that dying casino town in the desert could do is to bring back budget buffets and rooms. It has been staking everything on the upscale gamblers. Hey, we have lost $6 trillion or $8 trillion, depending on who’s counting. There ARE no upscale gamblers anymore to fill your penthouse suites and five-star restaurants. Bring back $7 buffets, and you might see some comers.
Amen!
Not arguing the point one lick, but why pick on Vegas? It was -everywhere-. I was watching “TruTV” and they had some footage of a street brawl in The Big Easy and there were several signs in the background that said: “Restrooms $5″
So… they’ll serve you until you’re quite sloshed but then want you to pay 5 bucks to get rid of it? OR… face what I’m sure is a pretty hefty fine!? One of the few things to like about the bubble bursting is the return of sanity. I’d have to make sure I p!ssed on the fiver before handing it over.
And $5 blackjack.
“It might sound counter-intuitive to be thinking about selling a home you haven’t even bid on, but it’s a reality homebuyers need to face, Todd said.”
They’re making this too hard. Just buy the cheapest house on the block - problem solved.*
*once prices have stabilized of course.
I do think about this while I mildly entertain the idea of buying a house. If rates go to 4.5% that would support a higher offer/asking price. What happens if you have to sell in 5 years and rates are at 7.5%? With everything else being equal, your prospective buyer is not going to be able to finance/afford your break-even asking price.
I would rather have higher rates/lower principal mortgage than lower rates/higher principal mortgage any day. The low rate environment is mainly for sellers/refinancers.
Exactly true, Scott. Something the FBs couldn’t figure out during the ultra-low rate environment of past (too many) years.
High rates would be a godsend to a lot of people.
When I graduated college in the early 80s, interest rates were over 10%.
Yet people making $35,000/year could afford houses on Long Island. Why? Because they cost $50,000.
Interest rates have little to do with making houses affordable.
Amen –sing it, brother!
“Youshaw has pawned jewelry and even took out a payday loan at 200 percent interest to pay the gas bill. Stunned at how quickly his fortunes turned, Youshaw says, ‘I’m living like I did when I was 19.’”
Odd. When I was 19, I didn’t borrow for anything.
200%?!?
Maybe they can all sing, “Luck be a lady tonight”?
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHHHHHHHHH!!!
The biggest advantage I ever had was having parents that were alive during the depression.
Except for the 15 years I had a mortgage, I have never been in debt either. Even when I was just starting out and making very little. I’ve never carried a balance on a credit card, never even financed a car. (I bought used!) Spending more money than you take in is just something that I physically can’t do; it was such an integral part of my upbringing.
Reuven, were we separated at birth? Your parents sound a lot like mine.
Amid all the Boomer-bashing that goes on (here and elsewhere), I’m glad you brought up the fact that we Boomers are the children of people who grew up during the Depression, and some of us actually learned frugal, responsible ways from them.
I think we should absolutely bail out the Elvis impersonators. If only because they would at least say “Thank yuh. Thank yuh very much” when they get the checks.
“The Tempe-based builder recently formed a team of ‘Fulton Foreclosure Specialists,’ whose job is to talk prospective customers out of buying a foreclosed home, and if that doesn’t work, to sell them a foreclosed home. The idea is to get banks to appoint Fulton’s team members as listing agents for bank-owned homes that meet a certain standard of quality, Fulton said.”
Wait a minute, isn’t this a blatant conflict of interest? Will Fulton’s team members disclose their association with Fulton to the banks before they sign on as listing agents?
Yeah, but if they disclosed the conflict what chances would they have to sink the potential sale?
Why would the banks hire Fulton as listing agents when the Fulton employees are going to try to talk them out of buying a REO? I know banks are stupid, but not THAT stupid..
Through all of this, one of the casinos in North lake Tahoe has ALWAYS had
the $4.99 Prime rib dinner. Not always advertised on the front billboard, but you could always ask for it and get it. Expect it to return to the billboard at all casinos
And my guess is that if people feel they are saving $5 on dinner, they will spend the $5 in the casino they save the money in. Some decent percentage of those will turn out to be hard-core gamblers, and a few will casually drop their life savings and max out their credit cards, the goal of every casino operator.
They will pay $300 for a round trip ticket to Tahoe from Chicago so that they could buy a $4.99 Prime Rib dinner!
Nobody really goes to Tahoe just to gamble. If I wanted to gamble my savings away, I’d go to Vegas. If I go to Tahoe, it’s camping, waterskiing, hiking, mountain biking in the summer time and Snowboarding/Skiing in the wintertime. Then we head out to the casinos for that 4.99 Prime Rib and party/gamble a little bit.
Several sectors of the Colorado economy are struggling and bracing for a tough 2009, but none is in worse shape than construction. After an expected drop of more than 4 percent in 2008, construction employment across the state could fall by another 7 percent in 2009, according to a forecast by the University of Colorado’s Leeds School of Business. That’s a loss of more than 18,000 construction jobs over a two-year period.”
As I walked the dog this morning through our neighborhood of 300K+ houses I made a point of counting the homes with a construction biz truck or van parked in front (the ones with lettering on the side: “Twin Peaks Electrical”. etc.). It was about 1 out of 10. Another 10 percent were unmarked but had the tell tale signs: big toolbox in the bed, wasn’t immaculately shiny, etc. From what I have heard these guys have fired their illegals and are doing the work themselves. I am guessing that 2009 might be the year that will finally break them.
They are used to making money hand over fist, but are now scrambling. We had a wind storm a few days ago (100 mph gusts). A single section of our cedar fence fell down. It was literally blown off the posts. My son and I reattached it with deck screws in about 30 minutes. I’m certain that if I had called Bob’s Fencing Co. he would have shown up in his F-350 and charged me $300 for the same work. Sorry Bob.
We had our house painted during Fall 2007. I called a few contractors from the phone book. They all showed up in their F-350s and quoted me $7000+. Upon realizing my mistake I asked around and found a guy who drives a 15 year old truck who charged $3500. He did all the work himself (no illegals) and it took him about 10 days. My neighbor is a DIY and he watched my painter like a hawk. He told me he did top notch work and didn’t cut any corners.
I was also getting a lot of remodeling junk mail (”Its never been a better time to remodel!”) earlier last year but it stopped about the same time the EZ credit spigot was cut off.
I worked for a contractor in college. He drove a beat to hell pickup truck for that very reason. I don’t think he ever charged any less.
It was also a little bit of insurance when working in bad neighborhoods.
“We had our house painted during Fall 2007. I called a few contractors from the phone book. They all showed up in their F-350s and quoted me $7000+.”
Like I always say, if you’re gonna paint someone’s house, you definitely need to go with the Ford F-350. I mean geez, how is a guy supposed to haul a couple dozen gallons of paint with a pu$$y F-150?
I did it myself. Put the best quality paint on real thick, since I don’t want to do it again for 15-20 years. Are you telling me I “saved” $6500? I love it!
FWIW, my contractor did more just just paint. He spent about 3 days alone sealing everything in sight.
I’m in the process of replacing the windows at the Arizona Slim Ranch. This project is being done on the Slim Pay-As-You-Go Plan. Meaning that when I have the money, I order another window or two.
When I last had the window boys in, the crew consisted of an older fellow and a man with a Mexican license plate on his truck. The older fellow was a subcontractor for the window company.
The older fellow had other jobs to supervise, so he left the Mexican man at my place to do the work. Which he did — at a slow pace. Seemed that talking on his cell phone and hobnobbing (in Spanish) with my neighbors was MUCH more important.
Well, that was back in 2006.
Late last year, I called the window company to get an estimate on completing the window replacement. I told the sales guy that I wasn’t too happy about the previous crew, and guess what? They’re no longer doing work for the window company. The sales guy told me that they use their own in-house crew now.
“Is the economy in Utah going to get better anytime soon? Probably not quickly enough to suit most folks.
Hey, isn’t the head of the Mormon Church in Utah a prophet, as well as being God’s voice on earth? Can’t he tap into his divinely-annointed powers to make some practical predictions for his [aptly-named] flock? Just wondering.
He warned them on numerous occasions to stay out of debt, but many of the sheep (including several of my wife’s closest relatives) ignored the admonitions.
Hahahahahaah! Thanks, Sammy.
But I think you mean ‘Profit’. That’s how IIIII always mean it, anyhow. 10% and yer a’goin to the Celestial Kingdom!
Well actually, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints have been consistently counseled to avoid debt, live within their means, purchase only modest homes they can afford etc.
Those who followed this counsel are doing pretty well. Those who didn’t well ……
I have in front of me copies of memos and copies of videos that were broadcast to every ward telling member to reach deep into their pockets and give everything they can to end same-sex marriages in California (and, as a side effect, make tens of thousands of kids bastards).
So you’re lying.
If they didn’t have the War On Gays(TM) the sheeple might clue in to how badly the ward captains typically run things–oh never mind that, they might remember how much the Mother Church has lied in recent years about their early origins, up to and including the outright destruction of documents to remove the evidence once too many people started asking questions.
If it weren’t gays, it would be some other crusade, be sure of it. They’ve got problems.
I always wondered what the odd men out in a plural marriage society were supposed to do?
Nah, Skip, trick question!
Seriously, I think they get banned.
Catholics and many other religions profess divine inspiration and revelation, why are you singling out Mormons? I finally find a Utah thread on HBB and you jackhole Mormon-bashers gotta come out of the woodwork. Give it a rest.
I think he picked on Mormons only because the quote was about Utah.
I always wonder why the fortune tellers can only see the future through a hazy crystal ball? Why not, the stock market will collapse at 2pm on the 2nd of October and will increase 50% starting at 1pm on January 1st 2010. Why not reveal the plot of 9/11? That’s when we get God works in mysterious ways. I think God works in very predictable ways, it’s the religious leaders who make their living via religion that work in mysterious ways.
This may be obvious to the people closer to the action, but it just struck me that in a lot of Western areas the homebuilders are facing a classic “prisoner’s dilemma”.
There is no “prisoners’ dilemma”. They get nothing by co-operating. You need to gain something by cooperating for “prisoners’ dilemma” to apply.
Waiting is the worst option for ALL of them. Get the heck out, get out first.
I was thinking that it would be in the builders’ collective interest to hunker right down and build NOTHING in an area until the overhang is gone, but in any builder’s individual interest to keep building wherever the proceeds might exceed the current input costs. Thus prolonging the overhang for all.
You seem to be indicating there are places where some builders couldn’t survive the hibernation??
It’s not “prisoner’s dilemma” — it’s “musical chairs” — last one out loses everything.
Bingo!
Oops, not quite the right metaphor, eh?
Maybe Kerplunk, then?
“The Kerplunk Mattel Game is a great children’s toy for kids of all ages! Players roll the die and pull out sticks, but be careful not to let the marbles fall, or you’ll lose it all! Get the family together for this fun action game and watch how the games you once played are still fun today!”
The LDS (Mormon) church teaches it’s members to live within their means and all of the other financial principles discussed at length on this blog. The parable of the Ten Virgins from the bible applies to LDS members as well. In general, half follow and half don’t. Appropriate rewards for both. Also applies to everyone else (religious or not). i just came back from a visit to SLC also. It is getting (and will get hit) a lot harder by this financial crisis. A lot of stupid things done there that had no relationship to the religious portion.
That sounds about right. A few years back, I was in SLC, and I read that Utah had the nation’s highest BK rates - something about keeping up with the Smiths. A lot of folks didn’t hear the message (though they may well have GOTTEN the message).
Why don’t we save a bunch of prison money? One national prision - summertime, some big tent in the middle of the Mohave. If they escape, they cook. In the winter, a tent on the frozen tundras in northern Alaska. If they escape, they become popsicles. AC the summer tent and heat the winter tent. Airdrop minimal supplies. Let em fight among themselves. To hell with these bleeding heart liberals who would say this would violate their civil rights. When they commited the crime, they LOST their civil rights. They are reserved for the law abiding people.
Aren’t there a horde of bad B movies about prison camps on islands? It usually turns into a cross between Lost, Survivor, and Lord of the Flies.
Hey now! ( I’m actually a huge fan of 70’s exploitation movies ) I just miss the old grainy washed out exposure, muddled soundtrack and of course sloppy editing and incoherent story lines.
I think it’s now it’s own “category”. Everything now is so sanitized.
Once upon a time, there were no jails. Get caught breaking the law, and they would dish out some near instant punishment… whipping, couple days in the stocks, whack off a hand, whatever.
Jail doesn’t work to deter crime, rehab criminals, or much of anything else. Time to try something else?
Jails have been privatised (CCA - Corrections Corporation of America) and it is in CCA’s interest to hold as many people as long as they can for as long as possible. CCA doesn’t want any rehabilitation. They also operate the T Don Hutto facility in Taylor, TX, where children are held because their parents have been working without documentation.
Lewis and Clark had two punishments for insubordination - 50 hard lashings or dismissal. During the first two months of the journey, both punishments were administered often. During the next (last) two years, almost never.
The way the laws are written today, I imagine everyone is guilty of breaking at least one law and deserves to spend time your gulag.
A program provided by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development ultimately helped along her decision. The program lets first-time buyers put down just $100 on HUD-designated properties. Norlin is scheduled to close on her new home in the Acres Green section of Littleton on Jan. 7.
Mike Kraft, a Realtor with The Group in Loveland, said first-time buyers have an edge in the current marketplace.
The property they buy won’t have inflated equity, Kraft said, and many sellers are willing to help with closing costs.
$100 down? It’s like they desperately want another bubble. And even after reading the entire article, I can’t understand what Mike Kraft means by “first-time buyers have an edge” becuase “The property they buy won’t have inflated equity, Kraft said, and many sellers are willing to help with closing costs”
If the seller is helping with closing costs, and HUD is helping with the down payment, the house has inflated equity! If any seller told me he’d help with closing costs, I’d ask knock the house price down by the closing cost amount, to keep my property taxes as low as possible.
I wonder if realtors suggest this trick to keep house prices just a wee bit higher…
What he means is, if you don’t already own a home, he can stick you with one… I mean… sell you one now. If he already sold you a house a couple years ago, and you put less than 30% down, then you are upside down and he can’t make a comission off of you.
It was “inflated equity” a year ago if you overpaid…. but certaily, buying today you are not overpaying…. well, it is WAY above 2000 price, but that is the baked-in, natural 5-6% per year normal appreciation. (end sarcasm)
Will Bernanke and Paulson’s plan to re-inflate the US debt bubble economy work? Not a snowball’s chance in hell.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JL25Dj02.html
The United States lived in Lever-Lever Land too long. Like Peter Pan, the country has refused to grow up. The object of the stimulus plans offered by the present and the next US administrations is to return to Lever-Lever Land, that is, to debt-financed consumption. It won’t work. Leverage is for the young, who borrow to build homes and start businesses. The financial crisis forces Americans to act their age, that is, to save rather than borrow and spend.
America’s leaders haven’t yet had the required moment of clarity. Its financial leaders still think the problem is a mere matter of confidence. These were the same people who swallowed their own sales pitch.
Aging workers, who soon will predominate in the American workforce, missed their chance to accumulate savings for retirement and education during the boom years of 2002-2008. Instead, they borrowed cheap money from foreigners and gambled on real estate. Many analysts have drawn attention to the link between America’s zero-percent personal savings rate and the current account deficit. Americans’ home equity probably is worth half of what it was three years ago, and fall a great deal further. If they had a retirement savings plan, it is probably down by 40% or so. If they still have a job, they need to save as much as they can and make up for lost time. All the stimulus in the world won’t persuade them to spend now that they know that they can’t retire on the price of their houses.
America will endure a lost decade more depressing than Japan’s during the 1990s.
This aging worker accumulated as much toward retirement as she could between 2002 and 2008, only to watch all of it, and more, vanish in the global financial meltdown!
Stocks and real estate both declined slightly, at the most, during this period. Anyone who lost 100% of more of their savings during this period was guilty of speculation.
it’s perfectly reasonable to regard the increasing balance in your boring, diversified stock fund as real money and to be dismayed when all the gains more or less evaporate.
Well…maybe I exaggerated. Slightly.
i remember going to vegas in 2005 with some friends, one had a sister living in town. anyhow, her and hubby were all talking about the real estate market and how they got a house and it is up this much. how you can’t lose in this market as it always goes up. they were in early 20’s and just married recently. anyhow, they were so caught up in the keep up the jones mentality. I had heard so much crap over dinner, the next day we were invited to a bbq. i told everyone i was there to party at the casinos and would go alone if they wanted to do the bbq. I did not care if they wanted to hang out with those hacks. i was told by another friend all their friends were the same self centered all about me croud. anyhow, we went to ceasars the next day and i was so glad i put my foot down and not be bullied into doing something i did not want to do! I would have been for it if they were just normal people. i wonder if they are still married now the house has lost 1/2 its value! man were they annoying!
“But bad times? No one here planned for that. ‘Because our growth cycle has been going on for 20 years, you know, for many people, myself included, that’s a career. That is the entire length of your experience,’ Jicinsky says. ‘We have casino executives that started working in their 20s and 30s that are now in their 40s and 50s, where all they knew was double-digit growth year after year after year.’
I call ‘Bullshit!’ on this. First off, there has not been “double-digit growth” for the past 20 years –the early to mid-1990s were a meat grinder for anyone laid off or freshly seeking work. No Gen X-er who had to live through the early 90’s (barring Trustafarians) would consider those ‘good times’.
But then born-privileged Boomers are incapable of seeing things through other people’s eyes.
I know I’m sounding like an old geezer, but you haven’t seen a recession unless you lived thru the 1979-82 recession.
I remember walking thru three feet of snow, uphill both ways, when I walked barefoot to the unemployemnt office……
HARM,
It’s just bitterness over the inability to accept the fact that bubbles never seem to last quite as long as the participants need them to?
As you, I and others predicted several years ago, the flood of “I was on the 5-Yard line” quotes continue unabated. Here in OR a bigshot builder that got in way over his head in Bend said “There’s NO WAY I’m walking away from my invesetment there! That’s my retirement we’re talking about here”
They delude themselves into thinking they’ll 1) recognize the peak of the market and 2) have the discipline to walk away while they are still winners.
Now, that one was a *recession*! (Yes, I lived through it. And didn’t like it one bit.)
I remember that recession GSfixer. I just got out of the Army in late 1978. I was lucky I got a job.
“We’re going to see natural selection of the building industry”
Yeah, right……..all it takes to be a builder/contractor around here is a pickup truck and a cell phone. Every carpenter that can drive ten nails without bending half of them over is now a “builder”.
Build too many houses? File Chapter 11, reincorporate using the wife or kid’s name……lather rinse repeat.
Yep.
We hired a plumber as the wife didn’t trust me with gas (great guy who does good work for a fair price). But man… He had the full on sales pitch at the end as he also had his general contracting license!
I decided that reminding him it was a rental was pointless…
Builders are like cockroaches. They breed to quick to ever leave a majority with a ‘memory.’ But I actually know of a half dozen that during the bubble *stopped* doing speculative work and slowed down to doing custom jobs. They’re now ‘waiting it out’ in their paid off vacation condos. Yes… they lost their shirt on their investments and thus won’t be able to retire early… But as soon as it looks good, they’ll buy land they consider cheap and start the cycle again. Most likely before the true bottom…
Got Popcorn?
Neil