January 19, 2009

Bits Bucket For January 19, 2009

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Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 04:54:16

‘Time to Sell’ Treasuries, Biggest Korean Fund Says (Update1)
By Wes Goodman
Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) — A rally that sent U.S. Treasuries to their best year since 1995 is coming to an end, South Korea’s National Pension Service, the country’s biggest investor, said.

U.S. government efforts to combat the recession will prompt the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates this year, said Kim Heeseok, who oversees $160 billion as head of global investments for the service in Seoul. The decline would snap a surge that sent the securities up 14 percent last year, according to Merrill Lynch & Co.’s U.S. Treasury Master index, as investors sought the relative safety of debt.

“It’s time to sell U.S. Treasuries,” said Kim, who took over as head of investments at the start of the year. “The stimulus plan may cause inflation. The U.S. will raise the benchmark interest rate.”

U.S. government securities headed for their first monthly loss since October after President-elect Barack Obama, who takes office tomorrow, said he will do “whatever it takes” to battle what he called the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Obama is planning an $850 billion stimulus plan, on top of $700 billion approved by President George W. Bush.

Ten-year Treasury yields, used as benchmarks for corporate and government borrowing costs, will rise to 3.08 percent by year-end from 2.32 percent now, a Bloomberg survey of banks and securities companies shows. An investor who bought today would lose 3.3 percent including reinvested interest if the forecast proves accurate, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

Two-year rates will climb to 1.43 percent from 0.73 percent, according to the survey, which gives heavier weightings to the most recent forecasts.

Higher Rates

The Fed will increase its target rate for overnight loans between banks to 0.75 percent by March 31, 2010, the poll shows. The U.S. central bank last month cut the target to a range of zero percent to 0.25 percent.

U.S. yields indicate traders are becoming more concerned about inflation.

The difference between rates on 10-year Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, or TIPS, and conventional notes, which reflects the outlook among traders for consumer prices, widened to 53 basis points from minus 8 basis points two months ago.

The spread has averaged 1.19 percentage points during the past six months.

Cutting Holdings

Investors in South Korea cut their holdings of U.S. debt to $28.6 billion in November, less than half of what they owned in 2006, based on Treasury Department data.

China, the largest foreign owner of Treasuries, increased its stake to a record $681.9 billion in November.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 05:01:03

OK, time to sell … who will blink first?

Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 07:47:07

France

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 09:38:48
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-19 16:16:58

I remember playing that game years ago. :)

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Comment by Dave of the North
2009-01-19 05:44:02

Time to bring the tropps home from South Korea?

 
Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-19 07:11:15

If I believed the premise that the stimulus would trigger inflation, I would agree that it is a good time to sell treasuries.

BUT:
1) I don’t believe it. The money isn’t getting into the hands of the little people that drave demand. Using trillions just to keep the banks alive is not going to drive demand. You have to get the money to the little people, but if you do that, they’ll just use it to pay down debt.

2) Where else are you going to put your money that is safer?

Comment by packman
2009-01-19 07:27:19

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. My main thought is - something I think most of us have been missing w/regards to inflation vs. deflation is dual-headed nature of it. Specifically - price and wage inflation vs. money supply inflation. I believe we’re seeing massive money supply inflation simultaneously with price deflation. Why? Because people are saving like crazy - i.e. hoarding money. When you look at all the savings rate indices - they’re jumping right now, while debt indices are plummeting. You read about it in the papers. People are saving like crazy - or the ones who can’t save are at least not going into debt nearly as much as they previously were.

I say “people” but of course this also especially applies on the commercial side - especially banks. They’re rebuilding their reserves after their reserve ratios got ridiculous during the boom.

What this means is that the cash that’s “out there” is building. It’s just that no one’s willing to spend it right now. Thus we’re having money supply inflation in combination with price and wage deflation.

In answer to “Where else are you going to put your money that is safer?” I would say this:

- Many people - understandably - don’t necessarily want to put all their investments in the most ultra-safe thing. There’s a lot to be said for riskier growth investments, especially if you believe we’re near a bottom and especially if you’re not near retirement. Stock market, corporate bonds, even real estate (not that I would espouse those, but many people think there are bargains to be had).

- There are still lots of ultra-safe investments that are not treasuries - CD’s, some corporate bonds, etc.

- Many people think foreign currencies and PM’s are safer right now than treasuries.

- In general divestment is safer than any one investment - even if that one investment is supposedly “ultra safe”. Especially now with the threat of high inflation on the horizon.

Comment by skroodle
2009-01-19 07:47:39

I think people are slowly realizing that *none* of the safe investments are really safe. Banks are failing, hedge funds collapsing, main stays of American industry like GM & Ford are close to death, state governments are broke, commodities have collapsed, real estate on life support, etc.

There is no “ultra safe” investment any more. [cue the goldistas]

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Comment by Asparagus
2009-01-19 09:05:47

I’m thinking of starting a hedge fund that promises a 0% return.

It’s a long/short strategy, long the SP500, short the SP500.
It’s a no lose (no gain) strategy.

I’m only sort of kidding.

 
 
Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-19 07:47:48

“People are saving like crazy - or the ones who can’t save are at least not going into debt nearly as much as they previously were.”

The mega rich save. Everyone else was living on debt. Now the everyone else is paying down debt.

The mega-rich getting mega-richer is not going to drive demand. Without demand, but in the face of massive oversupply, priceswill continue to fall.

And, just wondering… do those savings rate figures count the massive losses the mega-rich are taking from falling stock prices, falling bond prices, falling commodity prices, hedge fund managers running off with the last assets of their customers, faulty book keeping being exposed, etc. etc. etc….

The massive growth in the money supply is happening at the banks, that are holding the money to cover the massive losses they know are coming. In short, that isn’t real growth in the money supply. It is fake money that has not yet been wiped away from still-inflated asset prices on the banks books. Once the banks record their losses, all that money just goes away.

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Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-19 08:04:46

“The mega rich save. Everyone else was living on debt.”

In today’s political climate, over generalizations such as this become loaded statements.

Sorry Darrell, I really like your posts but this is a sore point. Section 8ers live in bigger and newer digs than mine, debtors drive cars while bikes and buses provide my mobility.

Everyone makes their choices, but not everyone lives with the fallout.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 08:19:10

Kinda right, but the are two sides to the equation.

Jane Wino borrows $100K and spends it on boobies. She defaults on the loan. Bank writes off loan and gets government moneys to support bank from failure. It matters who takes the slap for the old debt. Not who gets new debt.

What happened to the $100K that Ms. Wino borrowed for her new boobies?

The money supply has increased with a large shift in the money curve to the right. This is evident in the enormous increase in savings world wide. I personally believe the 4th Q GDP will be down, but the data from Oct -Dec this Q has so much leeway that there is a 33% chance of a positive GDP.

Commercial bank credit was 8% higher at the end of 2008 than at the end of 2007. Credit crunch or a hoax?

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 08:19:15

“Once the banks record their losses, all that money just goes away.”

I don’t think that’s true - I think it’s a misconception. That money has been loaned spent already - it’s out in the world, and deposited in other banks’ (or even the same bank’s) savings accounts, etc.). Therefore writing off bad debt does not make money “go away”. Only actually paying off debts does money go away, because it draws the money back in that was out there, and sends it back to the bank where it ceases to be, since it’s no longer loaned out (with virtually nothing as collateral - i.e. fractional reserve).

Instead - when loans are written off (e.g. through foreclosure) - it actually means that money actually loses its potential to go away. It’s now permanently out there in society, never to return to the bank and thus be destroyed vis a vis the loan payback.

When banks do their writeoffs - what it does do is pull down their reserves, which detracts from the potential for future money creation. However it doesn’t destroy existing money, at least as I understand it.

Thus - per my post above - I think we’re still seeing massive money supply creation. This hasn’t translated to price increases though because of the saving/hoarding going on.

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 08:23:11

“Commercial bank credit was 8% higher at the end of 2008 than at the end of 2007. Credit crunch or a hoax?”

- What data is that from? Does that refer to “available credit” or “used credit”?

I’ve been trying to make the argument to people that this “credit crunch” is indeed mostly a hoax - basically extortion by the banks to get bailout money - but haven’t been able to give much solid data to back it up.

 
Comment by Northeastener
2009-01-19 08:24:45

Section 8ers live in bigger and newer digs than mine, debtors drive cars while bikes and buses provide my mobility.

I’m still reeling over Ben’s recent post regarding the woman who hasn’t had a job in 16 years and collects $3000/mo from welfare, food stamps, and disability. I know people who work full-time, are college-educated, and barely make this… and this is in Massachusetts, a much higher cost-of-living region than the Southwest.

 
Comment by polly
2009-01-19 09:24:26

Northeasterner - I think part of that was payments for foster children, so at least some of that money was going to feed/clothe other people. Not sure how she got permission to keep kids in that house, but maybe they only inspect it once.

Hoz - it costs $100K for boobies? :)

 
Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 09:28:55

ding ding ding

college educated + some grad school

work more than full-time

lucky to bring home $1500/mo

live in a 580sqft apt, bike to work

It drives me crazy when I have to ask some member of the working poor to dig out some extra money to pay for their child’s bus fare while some SSD scammer can not only ride free but gets to bring a friend as well! (”personal care attendant”–only a few patrons need this, and some who need one to get on/off bus don’t bring one!!)

the prospect of hyper inflation freaks me out. the only bright spot is that I know how to live below my means so when everything settles down I can pick up the pieces. I hope.

 
Comment by Eudemon
2009-01-19 09:38:59

You might be reeling…but I hope you’re not surprised.

This is commonplace. The NYTimes, for example, runs a weekly column or two informing its readers how to take advantage of such programs. Sob stories galore. When $2000-3000 a month isn’t enough, and when rent controls at 1975 rates aren’t enough, you can always go begging at your local church.

Funny, $2-3K a month IS enough for a 30-year-old working 40-60 hours a week, isn’t it?

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 10:02:21

“Hoz - it costs $100K for boobies? ”

As she demanded one of his major construction projects as part of the settlement, Mr. Donald Trump said, “Sure Ivana you can keep your face.”

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-01-19 10:18:00

” some SSD scammer can not only ride free but gets to bring a friend as well!”

SSD/SSI is the holy grail for a lot of people I know. With it they get Medicare, Section 8, food stamps..plus they can work on/off the books on top of that. Some people have a nice, modest tidy little life doing just that in my neck of the woods. Maybe not so great in a big expensive city. I’d see them out and about every day, working in their yard or shopping..and used to wonder how they did it.

 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 10:19:21

when you think the situation with section 8ers etc. is bad in the US, just check out the Netherlands. Until recently Netherlands was the favorite destination for lazy immigrants (the ones who want to work went to the US, UK and maybe countries like Spain).

About 5-10% of the population in my country who could work have never worked (or maybe just a few weeks). Despite that they have a net income that is a lot higher than many people who work all day. This situation no longer applies for ‘new cases’, but all the old ones who are in the system can keep their permanent vacation (if you ever had a highly paid job for at least a few weeks and file for ‘disability’, you get about the same high net income for the rest of your life). Netherlands is assumed to have a healthy population and good healthcare, but they also have the highest % of people who are ‘unable to work’, not a coincidence with such lavish social security networks.

Someone on social security here should be able to drive a car, go to movies/theater etc. on a regular basis, have a dog or other pet and at least two foreign vacations. The list of minimum entitlements gets longer every year. We even have special officers in the city who go out to find people who may have missed some entitlement, like a free fridge or computer every two years. And of course the media do their best to educate them about all their rights.

And to come back to housing: these people can apply for government-subsidised housing without the 5-10 year waiting list that applies for someone who is working. They can rent a nice home for 2-4x lower than the free market rate (some of them even ‘own’ a home instead of renting, thanks to all the subsidies for disadvantaged groups).

 
Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:30:21

see, here, they get all the stuff, but it’s kind of “ghetto fabulous”. Leave all self-respect at the door. But it’s a slap in the face to the WORKING poor.

the genuinely disabled (especially those who need lots of medical care) get shafted because the scammers are bleeding the system dry (doctors are in on this, too–even if convicted they will still deny their millions in fraudulent billing, just astounding).

what’s amazing about this system is that just about anyone can claim a disability. this is an entitlement group with no boundaries. seriously, somebody should have thought this through.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 13:07:10

“Jane Wino borrows $100K and spends it on boobies.”

I agree with hoz. This is inflationary.

 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-01-19 13:48:35

Putting boobies in the scenario is clouding everyone’s logic:

John Viagra spends 100K on penile implant and defaults on loan. TARP funds offset bank’s bad loan, and the bad debt transfers from bank to Taxpayer/national debt.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-19 16:25:15

Thank you Don’t Know. Your example certainly cleared the picture. :)

 
 
Comment by David
2009-01-19 09:08:53

r.e. “Because people are saving like crazy - i.e. hoarding money. When you look at all the savings rate indices - they’re jumping right now, while debt indices are plummeting. You read about it in the papers. People are saving like crazy - or the ones who can’t save are at least not going into debt nearly as much as they previously were.”

I dont believe these savings statistics. I believe they are counting debt forgiveness as savings. People are losing jobs and wages arent increasing. Overall consumer spending is down less that 5%. Does anyone know for sure, how debt writeoffs are used in the consumer savings data?

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Comment by Bad Chile
2009-01-19 09:15:43

Savings rate is essentially computed as

[(gross personal earnings - taxes) - (personal outlays)] / [(gross personal earnings - taxes)].

Hence forgiven debt will drive up the savings rate through reduction of the personal outlays, so too will simply not taking on additional debt.

 
Comment by David
2009-01-19 09:25:06

This article explains the calculation a bit,
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11420563
It is consistant with Chili’s formula. Savings, debt, and investments are not part of the calculation.
This article from December trumpets the decrease in consumber debt.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-fi-debt12-2008dec12,0,6516950.story
Typical LA Times, people are being virtuous by cutting back on spending. No where does it mention the massive debt reduction due to foreclosures, workouts, short sales, and bad credit card writeoffs.

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 09:30:35

Yep. It’s both sides - people are taking on less debt ( = less new mortgages, plus foreclosures), and people are spending less. Consumer spending being down 5% (or thereabouts) is huge actually. Normally it’s up by a lot.

Not saying all of the sudden people have huge piggybanks or mattresses full of money (perhaps “like crazy” was over the top) - I just mean relative to recent history. It’s just starting.

 
Comment by polly
2009-01-19 09:43:24

Also, 401k money is not included the savings rate. I think that is because amount of additional vesting in traditional pension plans never was included, so the “replacement” for the traditional pension plans shouldn’t be - would totally screw up longitudinal studies.

So, people suspending contributions to 401ks and saving/paying off debt with the after tax amount instead will create a major increas in the reported savings rate.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 09:54:41

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/EXCRESNS.txt

Excess bank savings rate for reserves.
2008-03-01 2.978
2008-04-01 1.844
2008-05-01 2.011
2008-06-01 2.272
2008-07-01 1.977
2008-08-01 1.988
2008-09-01 60.051
2008-10-01 267.905
2008-11-01 559.051
2008-12-01 767.422

Dollars in Billions.

Consumer savings rate is just as spectacular. The data is all available.

 
Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2009-01-19 10:13:06

I tend to believe the “savings” statistics because that is what people do when “prices are falling” and they see people losing jobs.

The really scary thing about the savings statistics is that they mirror what happened in Weimar Germany. As the money supply was increasing people were saving like crazy thus causing prices to stay relatively flat. Then when people finally started to spend some of their savings prices start to rise dramatically even though the printing rate had fallen dramatically. The price rise started a chain reaction that destroyed the demand for the currency much faster than the supply ever increased.

What we are looking at is the primer for hyperinflation. Enjoy the suppressed prices while you can.

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 11:37:09

Thanks hoz. Holy crap that data is…. amazing.

 
Comment by AbsoluteBeginner
2009-01-19 12:01:12

‘ Thanks hoz. Holy crap that data is…. amazing.’

What is with the spike in September 2001?

2001-06-01 1.249
2001-07-01 1.401
2001-08-01 1.203
2001-09-01 19.015
2001-10-01 1.326
2001-11-01 1.439
2001-12-01 1.643
2002-01-01 1.405

Due to 9-11?

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-19 12:38:23

I noticed that too, except it happened before the 11th. Odd.

 
Comment by David
2009-01-19 14:58:48

there are two things happening, debt is going down, and savings rate is going up. The problem i have is that MSM articles are attributing the decrease in debt to higher savings, when i believe the vast majority of debt decrease is due to writeoffs of bad debt.

Lets play some number games.
Total US consumer debt is on the order of about $10Trillion.
Lets say that by some miricle every family was able to pay down $10,000 of their debt last year. This would be 150m * $10,000 = $1500B
Lets look at the 3 million foreclosures last year, and assume they had an outstanding balance of $250,000 that was charged off. This is $750B
Lets assume the workouts were also being done wholesale and there were 3 million workouts with an average writedown of 100,000; this is $300B
THe credit card industry has been recently been reporting delinquencies in the order of 5%. Assume that 5% of their portfolios are gonna be charged off, this is $500B
My point is that debt is not going down because people are saving and being virtuous, debt is going down because it is being written off.

 
Comment by measton
2009-01-19 22:17:59

debt is going down because it is being written off.

and new debt creation has slowed to a trickle, again not because people are virtuous but because the banks are cutting back.

 
 
Comment by Leighsong
2009-01-19 20:01:21

Thoughtful post packman.

Best guess?

Few were minding the store.

Ya know what they say about the fox guarding the hen house?

WTH - shoot the fraging fox!

Good night Irene.
Leigh

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 12:09:46

Darrell — I agree with your perspective for the time being. The risk is that a rapid change in market conditions could set off a Ker Plunk type unraveling of support for l-t U.S. T-bonds that played out too quickly for everyone who is in the market to make their way through the exit doors. Something similar happened to headline U.S. stock market indexes and oil prices last year.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 04:57:09

Cost of Borrowing Zooms Up for Corporations…
By JACK HEALY and VIKAS BAJAJ
Published: January 18, 2009

Like consumers and homeowners, America’s corporations binged on easy credit when times were flush, racking up huge debts. Now the bills are due, and paying them back will not be easy, or cheap.

This year alone, more than $700 billion in corporate loans will come due, according to Standard & Poor’s. That is the size of the federal bailout of the financial sector. Many companies were counting on being able to borrow more money to meet those obligations and kick their debt further down the road.

But with the credit markets still tight, corporations are being forced to pay much higher interest rates than they did a few years ago, putting more strain on balance sheets already hammered by falling profits and a grinding recession.

It is a lesson the discount carrier Southwest Airlines learned firsthand in December, when it went to the bond markets to raise $400 million, in part to cover its losses from betting that fuel costs would stay high.

Southwest, the only domestic airline with an investment-grade credit rating, put up 17 of its Boeing jets as collateral and agreed to pay interest of 10.5 percent, nearly double the rate it had paid in 2004 to raise $350 million. The company chafed at the costs, but it paid them because it needed cash and did not know what credit markets would look like in six months or a year.

“That’s the market now,” said Laura Wright, the airline’s chief financial officer. “There is not money available at the rates we were able to get a year ago.”

Southwest said it had seized the opportunity to raise cash at a time when other companies could not borrow at all. Companies with poor credit ratings are virtually locked out of credit markets or face the prospect of paying 20 percent interest. Many of them are slashing costs, canceling projects or putting assets up for sale to avoid defaulting on their debts.

Comment by combotechie
2009-01-19 06:10:11

Cash rules.

Comment by combotechie
2009-01-19 06:34:09

“Like consumers and homeowners, America’s corporations binged on easy credit when times were flush, racking up huge debts. Now the bills are due, and paying them back will not be easy, or cheap.”

“Companies with poor credit ratings are virtually locked out of the credit markets or facing the prospect of paying 20 percent interest.”

What a bunch of dummys.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-19 09:14:55

x eleventyzillion.

What happened to King?

 
 
Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-19 07:13:54

The next big shoes to drop are

1) Business bankruptcies. MASSIVE overhang of debt, and revenue is dropping. Rock and hard place, and the way out is bankruptcy. This will feed higher unemployment, feeding back into falling businees revenue.

2) Commercial real estate.

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 04:01:16

3) Government defaults

 
 
Comment by SFC
2009-01-19 09:51:06

So your recommendation would be to get out of corporate bonds?

Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:13:01

hell, I would.

no expert, just an amateur, but the risk/reward on them suckers has been raising the hairs on my neck since 2005.

yeah, maybe you make a nice return MAYBE YOU LOSE ALL YOUR CAPITAL

 
 
Comment by in Colorado
2009-01-19 11:29:31

I understand that Hewlett Packard recently sold $3 billion worth of binds at around 6%. Looking at their balance sheet I could only conclude that they did this as a form of insurance, as they clearly have no need for it right now.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-19 15:59:12

Some HP data:

118 billion 2008 sales
8 billion profit

Many buyouts in 2008 - most notable: EDS

I mention EDS in particular as A) it was their biggest acquisition and B) EDS has a history of trouble.

HP has also been laying off not just people from their acquisitions, but house staff and contractors as well. Future orders are way down.

But their biggest problem may be EDS. EDS may be their Achilles heel.

 
 
Comment by ACH
2009-01-19 15:57:42

This reminds me of those smarta$$e$ on the talking heads shows. They went on and on about how the corporations are in excellent shape to weather this downturn.

I guess not.

Roidy

 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 04:58:21

Dutch bubble update:

now that the Dutch bubble has started to burst after about 20 years of nonstop growth, homeowners and RE mob have been demanding all kinds of help. Fortunately, the government decided friday that there is little they can do (maybe they are out of money?). Only housing corporations will receive additional backing for home construction loans (but most of these corporations are extremely wealthy, so it is of little help).

Dutch unemployment is expected to double in the next two years, from nearly 2.9% now (lowest in EU, thanks to the most clever statistics) to 5.5% next year. The economy will shrink at least 2% and catch up with trouble in other EU countries. Wages increased several % above inflation in 2008 (this doesn’t mean that real incomes increased, that depends strongly on situation); I guess 2009 will be less benign. With unemployment the biggest factor for home prices, this doesn’t bode well for the housing market.

On another note, Dutch households lost 152 billion euros in the first three quarters of 2008; these losses are far bigger (and quicker) than those from the dotcom bust. Household equity is now about the same as in 1997 or 2002. The biggest loss this year was in pensions, life insurance funds etc. Keep in mind that homevalues were still at record highs around the time, the collapse of the housingbubble will likely mean even bigger losses ahead in the next years.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-01-19 05:19:03

‘now that the Dutch bubble has started to burst’

Ah, and I remember how impatient you were. Like LA investment girl, ‘why aren’t we falling like Florida.’ If you had a bubble, it will collapse, that’s one thing I’ve become sure of. Of course, once it begins to fall, the concern turns to the stuff hitting your head!

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-19 05:44:37

Ah, and I remember how impatient you were.
———————

I don’t blame him, though. Waiting isn’t always easy.

Even here in the better parts of San Diego, prices have dropped maybe 10-15% from the peak. Here’s the really weird part: houses have been **flying** off the market in the past few weeks. Some houses in our area were on the market for many months — even a year or more — then suddenly sold at or above list price.

Not sure what’s going on. The low rates seem to be attracting people, and it looks like the the specuvestors are back in large numbers. Are they trying to hedge against inflation? straw buyers? “mobbed-up” flippers?

Jobs are being lost and retailers are closing right and left, but things are not slowing down in the housing market. Sales are up. :(

Hope you get a better downturn than we’re getting, nhz.

Comment by matthew
2009-01-19 08:19:12

Interesting observation, but I’m not all that suprised really… The bubble did much to damage the psychy of most Americans.. because of the bubble mantra, many people have came to believe that homes should be that expensive… that it should take 1/2-3/4 or more of your income to afford one.. those are the ones that got priced out during the bubble, but were swayed by the RE machine into becoming believers in RE story… that’s who’s buying now…

here’s what I do know… in the end, home prices matter…. and, income / home price ratio matters even more … until we reach historical standards for these numbers, those buying now will regret it at some point here in the near future, including those buying in San Diego..

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Comment by Skip
2009-01-19 10:49:25

I don’t think all that much damage has been done yet.

Found out this weekend a cousin of mine just bought a $400k house on the Texas coast.

They had previously bought a house on a lake and made a lot of money a couple of years ago, so I am sure they are expecting this place to skyrocket up in value over the next couple of years.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 09:38:05

sure, I’m following the US market to get some cues regarding what could happen here; this blog is good to ponder the possible outcomes, even though our situation is different from the US.

I have a friend who wants to buy a $ 1 million or so vacation home in FL. But - after checking many offers - he still thinks that all the heavily discounted properties are in locations ‘where you would not want to live’, and the really nice properties are holding close to record prices. Difficult to judge from here …

If we get just 20-30% price declines in Netherlands I certainly won’t buy; I might start looking when we pass the 50% down mark, and even then most homes will be severely overpriced. I’m hoping for a quick and dirty crash like we had in 1980, but it will probably turn out exactly the opposite.

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Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2009-01-19 12:32:06

“he still thinks that all the heavily discounted properties are in locations ‘where you would not want to live’”

Yep, the ONLY RE mantra that stands the test of time, bubble or no…

“Location, Location, Location” :-)

DOC

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-01-19 10:11:55

That sums up Maryland, too:

The Bubble will NEVER really end here, IMHO. There are just too many idiots who are willing to spend every cent they have to “own” a house. It’s hard enough competing with DINKS without them also being stupid DINKS who are content to make 6 figure total salaries and have $3,000 in total savings. Here, the Bubble will just oscillate between various levels of unaffordability as idiots buy “cheap” houses (at 5X their income or more) and then lose the house when the next government meddling program fails or the loan resets/recasts, etc. - only to have the house bought up AGAIN for too-high a price by somebody else who’s working some other angle “low rates”, government handouts to home-buyers, whatever.

Honest saver and workers cannot compete in such an environment.

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Comment by polly
2009-01-19 12:01:50

Yes we can, Pondering, but only when interest rates eventually spike. Until then, just keep saving. The downpayment means much much more when the mortgage rate is over 10% and high rates will force the prices down.

And I’m not as sure as you are that the culture can’t change even here. Those cocky young things will be a lot less cocky when the real job losses hit. They will eventually. Not everyone has a government job.

 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 09:32:44

yes, I was getting desperate as I was already expecting the collapse in 2001 or so; it was about time, as we already had about 10 years of doubledigit pricegrowth then.

But the 2001 ‘crash’ proved shortlived, there was some market panic but the average homeprice didn’t really decline. As a result of the euro currency pricegrowth soon resumed with a vengeance.

I’m not too worried about fallout because I’m without work or income as a result of health problems. As long as my bank doesn’t get wiped out, or prices go into hyperdrive mode, the financial side shouldn’t be a major problem.

Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-19 16:14:54

nhz, I hope your government is giving you some kind of help since everyone else in Holland seems to be collecting. Seriously. Sorry to hear about your health problems.

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Comment by nhz
2009-01-20 03:31:13

not a chance, I was selfemployed and despite paying disability taxes for more than 15 years, the only thing the government does for me is collecting taxes :( I sold my home many years ago and first have to burn all the money before I’m entitled to anything.

For selfemployed people, Netherlands has about the same kind of social security as the US.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 04:07:16

Sorry to hear that, nhz. Very strange how they operate WRT giving immigrants all kinds of perks, but not you???

Are you still taking photographs, or is your illness preventing you from doing that? You take unbelievably beautiful pictures!

Hope things go your way, and that they happen as quickly as possible.

Best of luck to you!

 
 
 
Comment by waiting in_la
2009-01-19 10:10:34

Where did she go, anyway? Too busy buying up all the “deals”?

Comment by polly
2009-01-19 12:04:11

She had “knife catcher” written all over her. Bet she jumps/jumped in too early.

Just a guess.

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Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-19 13:21:42

Yep - like so many out here.

It’s funny, even the one’s that admit prices were over inflated or due to fall, turn around and think that ‘now is the time’.

bubble story :

My next door neighbor moved out of her duplex in ‘04 to rent it out. She told me it was out of necessity, as she couldn’t afford to live there any more. Said that she bought the house 30 years ago, when she was a nurse at a local hospital (Cedars maybe, ?). Said that she never dreamed that it would be desirable.

She had some work done to it (while that was happening, she had me do a walk-though, trying to sell me on moving in. Her place was nasty - shit stacked to the ceiling all over the place - total pack rat. Speaking of pack rat, when she moved out, we instantly had a rat problem. It’s like she let them out of her house.) - and managed to rent the place out in ‘05. Both sides are 2/1 ’s. Got $2300/mo for one, $2400/mo for the other.

Bumped into her now and again in the next few years, always asked her how the rental was going, etc. Said that she eventually wanted to buy another house, but prices were too high, etc. This naturally led me into the ‘bubble talk’. I told her how prices would come down even in this neighborhood, etc. She said (at the time) ‘I know, poepl are crazy, etc, etc.’, seeming to side with me on the bubble.

Fast forward to last week - she called me up out of the blue, asking for my landlord’s number. Said that she wanted to buy my house. Keep in mind, that the house is currently valued at $1M still (off from $1.3M, peak), so what’s the mortgage on that - $7k/month???

Anyway, says that she wants to buy something nice to live in, that she can eventually sell for profit!!!!! Bubble mentality.
I asked her, ‘do you know what a knife catcher is?’, and proceeded to explain where we were in the scheme of things, and why she should keep renting.

To which she replied - “but, you get nothing for renting”.

To which I replied, “Sure you do - especially here, where renting is so much cheaper than owning. You can take the extra money you save and invest it. Housing values still have a long way to fall. This was an epic housing bubble.’

To which she replied, ‘Oh I know - remember I told you that a few years back. That’s why I said to buy that house, buy anything you can, etc., etc.”

So wierd - admits to knowing, believing in price bubble, but doesn’t see it popping. ??? Still caught in the mindset of ‘gotts buy a house’.

I hope that b%tch doesn’t buy our house. I have the best rental. Awesome 3/2 craftsmen - literally the biggest lot in West Hollywood (6000 sq. ft.). I have a rent controlled lease from 1997 that I inherited.

I don’t see how she can, if her income is the rental money from next door. That’s $4700 / month. I guess with an fha loan, or some magic HELOCing, maybe she can.

Are the funny money loans still out there?

The thought of this infuriates me!

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 04:11:43

Waiting,

That’s exactly the mentality I’m seeing around here. The bubble is still alive and well. We are nowhere near a bottom, as everyone thinks that now is the time to buy.

Unbelievable how entrenched the mentality is…housing always goes up!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 05:05:13

Brown say’s if this doesn’t work then their economy will fail. What then, do then shut down the country! LOL! Hey Gordo get the hell out of the way dumb ass, let the system flush.

Government finalises second bank bailout plan
Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:30pm GMT
LONDON (Reuters) - The government will guarantee “toxic debt” worth billions of pounds in a second bank bailout designed to boost lending and fend off a prolonged recession triggered by the worst economic turmoil in 70 years, people familiar with the matter said on Sunday.

The government is also likely to swap preference shares it holds in Royal Bank of Scotland for ordinary shares under the plan, which could see Britain increase its stake in the lender to near 70 percent from 58 percent, one of the sources said.

Government officials spoke with bank chiefs throughout the weekend to hammer out a solution to a credit freeze that has crippled industry, small businesses and homeowners already struggling to cope with the downturn.

The Treasury said it will announce the plan before Monday’s market opening, which is at 8 a.m.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown, speaking to reporters in Egypt, where he was attending talks on Gaza, said: “We know the essential problem is the resumption of lending.”

The package is aimed at clearing blockages in the credit pipeline and is designed to “get lending moving in the economy” to help families and businesses, Brown said.

Key parts of the bailout will include a huge state insurance scheme to guarantee billions of pounds of banks’ bad assets, three people familiar with the discussions said. The Treasury will guarantee at least 100 billion pounds of new lending, the Sunday Times said.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-19 06:24:15

Looks like the Euro markets just turned south a few minutes ago after a bounce from Gordo’s meddlings.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 09:40:33

at least the euro currency nosedived (again) today; maybe they are expecting the UK to apply for joining the currency union? Now THAT would be a sure way to crater the euro; maybe a good idea for all the kleptocrats in Brussels who want that so badly.

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 06:26:35

“We know the essential problem is the resumption of lending.”

hmmm….Might the essential problem be the resumption of repaying debt?

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 04:13:52

+1

 
 
Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-19 07:19:33

People are burried in debt and going under. Yes, of course, the solution is more debt.

WRONG!!!! The solution is to STOP borrowing. Let exchange rates correct. Restore balance the trade.

STOP kicking the can into the future, stop just making the problem larger and larger.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2009-01-19 16:50:31

If you don’t bail out the money boys in the City, then they can just move elsewhere and ruin that economy. And that is not an idle threat.
- the Two Johns

Comment by Leighsong
2009-01-19 22:29:07

And that is not an idle threat.

HAR!

I will take your money!

And to which Island shall I go?

Greed knows no boundaries.

Leigh :(

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 05:19:00

WTH? Why, all I have been hearing lately is that gubmint ‘created’ jobs will be the cure all. Well don’t tell B.O. that could screw up his entire plan. Change you can believe in.

California Finds Public-Works Spending No Unemployment Cure-All…

Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) — An hour’s drive through California’s Riverside County takes in neighborhoods of deserted homes, boarded-up businesses, busy unemployment offices — and crews working on millions of dollars in new public projects.

Only four years ago, Riverside and nearby San Bernardino, often called the Inland Empire, were California’s economic powerhouse, accounting for more than a fifth of the state’s new jobs. Today, unemployment reigns in the sprawling region east of Los Angeles. The 9.5 percent jobless rate in the two counties matches Detroit’s as the highest of any major metropolitan area in the U.S.

Riverside also has almost $1 billion worth of public-works projects underway or planned, from widening roads to building a new jail. The county illustrates both the promise and the limitations of the spending President-elect Barack Obama proposes to pull the U.S. economy out of a recession that may become the longest since the Great Depression.

“What infrastructure spending can do is bolster employment in a group of industries, like construction, with workers who are ready to go,” said Brad Kemp, director of regional research at Beacon Economics in Los Angeles. “What it can’t do is stop the unemployment rate from rising currently because there are a lot of forces coming at consumers, who are holding back on spending.”

Soaring Unemployment

While Riverside’s investments put thousands to work, unemployment in the Inland Empire may still soar to 12 percent in the next year or two, said Kemp and John Husing, founder of Redlands, California-based consulting firm Economics & Politics Inc.

“Riverside County is an extreme example of a lot of the economic excesses from the recent boom,” said public economics professor Gregory Hess of Claremont McKenna College in Claremont, California. “It hasn’t hit rock bottom yet, which suggests that either the county is doing something right or there is more bad news to come.”

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-19 07:23:48

“B.O. that could screw up his entire plan. Change you can believe in.”

This guy ain’t gonna make it. He has no idea what sort of sh*tstorm he’s stepping into. In a way I feel sorry for him, but his own party will sabotage him so thoroughly he won’t have a clue what hit him or what he did wrong.

Anyway, keep your powder dry, do what you can to keep you and yours safe and then sit back and enjoy the show. There will be change like you just can’t believe.

 
Comment by polly
2009-01-19 09:29:02

Washington Post article about republicans from the administration and the Hill looking for jobs. General conclusion? The peole who left the administration about a year ago had the right idea because there were still jobs back then. Also, the ones who didn’t should leave Washington to find something, but they don’t want to (no mention that they can’t sell their houses or anything).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/18/AR2009011802157.html

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-19 11:16:26

.“It hasn’t hit rock bottom yet, which suggests that either the county is doing something right or there is more bad news to come.”

Hmmm…thats a tough one, but I think my money would be on “more bad news to come”.

 
 
Comment by Michael Fink
2009-01-19 05:39:17

FHA loan limits fell by about 100K in my area (Palm Beach) from Dec 2007 to Jan 2008.

2009 FHA Single Family Limit - 345,000
2008 FHA Single Family Limit - 423,750

That’s going to help push the prices down further, hopefully by the end of this year we star to really approach the bottom. I’m just hoping that the 1.5T that the new administration is planning won’t have a huge impact on my plans.

Anyone want to talk about how incredibly stupid it is to offer “low-income” loans to people for the purchase of homes costing 300-400K? What message does that send to the American people. If only they would put a note on the FHA website that says “For all loans over 300K, a 100K household income (W2/1099 ONLY) is REQUIRED”. That’s the kind of realization that this country really needs to have. 300K homes, and the 100K families that live in them, are only a TINY fraction of the population (~5%-10%, depending on your area). EVERYONE else should be looking at something that’s less then 300K. And frankly, the idea that people need government assistance to buy 300K homes (again, our 100K income family) is just so sick and perverted.

How about this. Mr. 100K family SAVES for a few years. Then get’s a more traditional loan product from a lender who takes a good size downpayment (10-20%) and does ALL the background on the buyer (full income verification, full downpayment verification, full credit history, ONLY 700+ FICO need apply).

Didn’t we learn that loans to the irresponsible don’t work? Now we are trying the same thing again, this time government insured? What a great plan.

1 year lapse for chap 13 and 2 years for chap 7 bankruptcy? More great planning.. What are we thinking?

Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:14:45

but where would this “saved money” come from?

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 04:17:20

It’s very frustrating, Michael. You’re not alone.

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-19 05:41:08
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 06:57:26

“the perfect storm of unaffordability”

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-19 11:21:17

I see they managed to forget to put the actual tax rates in the article.

I guess we can all trust that they are the highest.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 13:54:45

There is no uniform tax rate. Each county and town and village has their own rate. It is safe to assume 3%.

Rising prices made us “rich” here in Yates. We built a state of the art grandiose courthouse (with debt as a cornerstone) and will be paying for that for a generation. Rates will have to go up as property values decline.

Comment by Skip
2009-01-19 15:05:59

3% is nothing in Texas…

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Comment by Muggy
2009-01-19 17:15:40

“here in Yates.”

I wish you were in Steuben, so I could resurrect “Steubendous!” or Chemung… “Chemungous!”

You know what we call Bath?

B-ahhh-th (like sheep, you know). Lol…

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Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-01-19 11:40:32

Gah!

What direction do you suppose that tax burden will go as budget shortfalls become more acute?

How long can that tax policy be sustained in a region with deflating home values and below-average wages?

 
 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-19 06:26:51

Selling million dollar condos in Detroit: yes we can!!!

Actually closing a deal though may be a different issue.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090119/BIZ/901190370

Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-19 16:20:31

Oh my, IN DETROIT ? A MILLION DOLLARS for something ? Oh that’s just too funny. They can have my house in a beautiful neighborhood in a suburb of said city for $ 150,000, and we can walk the streets at night. Oh my, that’s just too funny. Half of the purchasers will either lose their condos or their downpayments will vanish into the haze of the continuing real estate spiral. Too bad for them. Too optimistic at this point, I think.

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-19 06:30:50

Little story over at Yahoo Finance about 2009 job losses.

They say NYC, LA, Miami, and Chicago stand to lose the most. (180k, 165k, 85k, and 80k respectively).

Ithaca NY, Fairbanks AK, and St. George UT should be ok!

Note that its not a good sign when the “cities” that are predicted to hold up all have to have mentioned with their respective state name for proper recognition.

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-01-19 06:47:27

Peter Schiff running for U.S. Senator of CT??

http://www.schiff2010.com/content/our-cause

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 07:19:51

He’ll never make it. The skillset to be a senator is vastly different from having economic understanding.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-19 07:25:40

Who would he be replacing? Dood or Lieberman?

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-01-19 11:44:42

He would presumably run for Lieberman’s seat — Lieberman is vulnerable from both sides of the aisle, even in blue-blue Connecticut, especially if it becomes a three-person race.

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Comment by packman
2009-01-19 07:36:12

Senators have skill sets?

Only half kidding. I thought the primary requirement to be a senator was connections, not skill sets. Especially financial connections. Certainly Schiff has plenty of those - no?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 07:41:09

That is a skill set. How to make and leverage those connections.

Those who lack it (or profess disdain for it) don’t think of it as a precise, concrete, acquirable skill set but that’s undoubtably what it is.

Your ethics and morality shouldn’t get in the way of your rational objectivity.

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Comment by Bub Diddley
2009-01-19 08:58:31

He’s gotta be as qualified as Caroline Kennedy.

Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2009-01-19 10:36:51

I am sorry, but the idea of “qualifications” and “senators” is laughable to me. Someone with a solid economic outlook has all of the qualifications necessary because he will not be stupid enough to think that stealing from peter to pay paul will somehow help both peter, paul, and suzy.

Everyone in congress and the senate (except Ron Paul) is currently unfit for the position of power they hold. This is the problem with voting in a society educated by the government.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-19 10:44:30

Ron Paul can also turn water into wine and bread into fishes, if you only believe…

I lost my taste for him when I learned how hard he has fought against the secularization of our “Christian” nation, among other things. For someone so intelligent, he can be quite the tool.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-01-19 12:28:24

Ron Paul can also turn water into wine and bread into fishes, if you only believe…

Hey, don’t talk about The Real Messiah like that!

You just don’t understand!

 
Comment by VirginiaTechDan
2009-01-19 14:42:00

I do not believe that Ron Paul was fighting against “secularization”, instead he was fighting against all laws either for or against any particular religion. He is a firm believer that congress shall “write no law” and that includes laws that forbid religion within government agencies or schools.

The “secularists” are just as “religious” about their view as the “religious” are.

 
 
 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-19 09:57:07

But not all that different than the skillset to be a salesman.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 09:41:35

I guess his biggest problem would be campaign donations …

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-19 06:48:55

Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) — Spain had its AAA sovereign credit rating removed by Standard & Poor’s in the second downgrade of a euro-region government in five days, as the country’s first recession in 15 years swelled the budget deficit.

The risk of losses on Spanish government debt rose to a record, credit-default swaps showed, after S&P lowered the rating one step to AA+ and assigned it a “stable” outlook. It was S&P’s first reduction in Spain’s rating and puts it on the same level as Belgium and Hong Kong.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 07:02:13

Does Spain have to pay S&P for its rating?

Will S&P become the US’s political weapon against its major competing currency?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 07:06:29

They partied a LOT harder.

The PIGS in particular. They are all Iceland in all but name only. The UK too.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 09:44:26

maybe S&P are trying to get some bargaining power over EU authorities, for once the lawsuits about S&P’s part in the credit crisis start in earnest (I’m pretty sure they will get roasted):

lower the fines, and we will upgrade some EU memberstate credit ratings ;)

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 16:13:27

“Spain was basically Florida, with a housing bubble inflated by both resident and holiday purchases, and now the bubble has burst.

So what can Spain do? It needs to become more competitive — but it can’t have a devaluation, because it’s a euro country. So the only alternative is wage cuts, which are desperately hard to achieve (and create big problems for debtors.)

Contrary to what everyone seemed to be saying even a few weeks ago, being a member of the eurozone doesn’t immunize countries against crisis. In Spain’s case (and Italy’s, and Ireland’s, and Greece’s) the euro may well be making things worse.”
Mr. Paul Krugman

Comment by Leighsong
2009-01-19 23:01:30

Sir Hoz - I adore you.

Krugman?

Please forgive me.

Leigh

 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-20 03:34:24

and of course it works the other way round: as long as Spain is in the euro currency union, their troubles will drag the euro down with them, and all member states will suffer.

 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-01-19 06:59:36

From yesterdays Palm Beach Post

Financial burden of homeownership spread unequally

By ALAN ZIBEL
AP Real Estate Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) — When it comes to homeownership, Hispanics in New Jersey, single parents in California and senior citizens in Rhode Island all have something in common: More than a third have an unaffordable mortgage.

Inequality in America has traditionally followed familiar patterns of race, age and education. Those long-standing gaps have been magnified by the real estate boom and now the historic bust, according to an Associated Press analysis of 2007 Census Bureau data.

While minorities have made significant gains in wealth and home ownership since 1990, “things are going into reverse gear,” and now the homeownership rate for blacks and Hispanics is falling, said Edward Wolff, a New York University economist who studies income and wealth distribution.

Comment by CrackerJim
2009-01-19 11:55:01

“While minorities have made significant gains in wealth and home ownership since 1990, “things are going into reverse gear,” and now the homeownership rate for blacks and Hispanics is falling, said Edward Wolff, a New York University economist who studies income and wealth distribution.”

Perhaps we need CRA 2009 Revision courtesy of future taxpayers, or do we move to a new idea expressed as
“From each according to ability: to each according to need”.
Hmmm, where have I run across that idea before?

 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-01-19 07:05:46

Last year I posted about estimated $1.6 T loss in US debt (Roubini, Bridgewater Associates), but now GS has upped the estimated total loss to $2.1 T, with a huge chunk of it in oversea investors and banks… isn’t globalization a good thing for a change? :-D

January 15, 2009, 12:05 pm
Banks’ Loan Losses Could Reach $2 Trillion

It is little wonder financial markets are taking a beating. Despite all of the talk of fiscal stimulus and the hope of a new administration, one very large figure stands in the way of a real economic recovery. That number is $2 trillion — the losses that investors and financial institutions are potentially sitting on from bad loans.

Estimating loan losses is a fuzzy process. It is very sensitive to what happens to the economy, home prices and other variables. It is muddled by the obscurity of the securities sitting on many financial institution balance sheets. And it is obscured by what one decides to measure — some key estimates these days only look at losses on U.S. loans, not the bad mortgages and debt sitting in places like Europe.

But one thing is sure. The number keeps growing and a sustained recovery for markets is unlikely until the hole is filled.

Analysts at Goldman Sachs were the latest to jack up estimates of potential U.S. loan losses. In a report released late Tuesday night, Goldman economists estimated that losses from delinquent U.S. residential mortgages alone would hit $1.1 trillion as home prices sink, up from an earlier estimate of $780 billion.

Add in losses from commercial real estate, credit cards, auto debt and business debt and Goldman’s loan loss estimate hit $2.1 trillion. Many of those losses will be born by investors and banks overseas, though the estimate doesn’t count losses that U.S. institutions will take on bad overseas loans that they hold.

Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-19 07:28:17

Getting closer, but still not close. $2 trillion from U.S. residnetial, in my opinion, is half what is coming. And, that is only half to a third of the pain.

I think real losses on bad U.S. debt will be $7-10 trillion. And, there is probably 2-3x that globally.

Yes, the internation banks will take a hit on bad U.S. debt, BUT, we’ll be taking losses on their bad debt too.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 07:34:40

Don’t forget the derivatives bets.

The net is only a net if your hedges work, and a lot of hedges are simply non-existent.

And there’s international RE and international debt and derivatives bets on that stuff too.

There is no way this is limited to $2T.

Comment by exeter
2009-01-19 09:12:04

Make note. Ken Rogoff estimated the total $$ cost of implosion is or will be 40 Trillion.

So much for reflating with US taxpayer $$$.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 13:16:52

That is a number which has the virtue of at least passing the “ballpark test” (a.k.a. “smell test”.)

We can quibble about details after that but it’s a waste of time quibbling with people who think it’s gonna be $2T.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 07:33:43

Observations from a coin/collectible dealer last week:

- Lots of people are coming in and selling valuable stuff - including family heirlooms and such - in order to pay this month’s mortgage, and in some cases to have something to eat. It is very sad.

- Premium for 1oz gold coins is generally about $150-180 over spot now. As soon as he gets any in, they’re gone within just a few minutes. Spot’s been running $830′ish, but he has no problems selling them for $1,000. He said he has people that would buy 50 at that price on the spot if they were available.

FWIW - draw your own conclusions.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-19 07:38:25

It is very sad.

Why is it sad? They chose to do this to themselves.

I hope they get JT’d but good - bloody, raw, red stuff spraying everywhere. The kinda lesson that only the JT can teach.

And a gold dealer telling us that supply is tight. Buy now before you are priced out forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ve seen that one before too. LOL

Comment by max4me
2009-01-19 08:11:53

So where is the same place for the monies?

Personally I am thinking soo will be a great time to get into the market,

oh and dont forget peak oil

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 08:38:33

“And a gold dealer telling us that supply is tight. Buy now before you are priced out forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ve seen that one before too. LOL”

Whatever. He didn’t have anything to sell to me, is the difference. Apples and oranges.

Comment by Michael Viking
2009-01-19 09:04:03

Well, explain how gold coins are flying off his hands at over $1000 a pop when my local dealer’s selling Eagles for $901 and Maples for $887. That’s not “150-180″ over spot, is it? Maybe it’s sales tax? I’m in Oregon and there isn’t any sales tax.

Drawing my own conclusion: It doesn’t seem like the supply is as tight as that gold dealer’s making it out to be.

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Comment by packman
2009-01-19 10:01:20

Well the fact that he’s all the way across the country might have something to do with it. Many people don’t like buying over the mail and perhaps the demands isn’t as great in Oregon.

I’m going by what’s relative to recent times at the same location, and other locations within a few hours drive. I used to be able to get at $15 over spot from this guy, no problem. Two months ago best he would do is $70-80 or so over spot, when he got them. Now he’s generally doing $150-180, though like I say that’s when he has them, which he generally doesn’t now. I know his supply’s tight because he didn’t have any to sell me, and usually when I call he doesn’t either. He used to have some that just stayed in stock available, up until last summer or so.

Nevertheless, the fact that you used to be able to get them *everywhere* for $15-20 or so over spot, and now they’re ranging from $50-whatever, says something.

Perhaps your guy should take a trip to the east - he’d probably make some good money, if he has a big supply.

FWIW I’m just now starting to track some on eBay, to see what they’re going for there. First glance it looks like around $900 - $920.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-01-19 10:26:42

$50 over spot for 1 oz here. They have Am Eagles in 1 oz but not some of the smaller weights.

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 11:04:50

eBay they’re generally going for $950-ish (about $110 over spot), e.g. this one (basic uncirc. - no cert and not proof) just went for $960.

I wish I had a local dealer doing $50 over spot - I could make some good $$.

 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 11:15:18

there are many explanations for the physical premiums. One of them was the 20-30% rebates through the Live searchengine …

For sure there doesn’t seem to be a shortage of large gold bars (the onces that are usually stored in bullion vaults), it’s just the small bars and coins.

 
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-01-19 11:41:43

The MS Live search engine hasn’t been doing the ebay discount for nearly four weeks - at any level.

Glad i got some goods with it while I could…

 
 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-19 07:51:55

Ok, Alad presented us with these stories too, but there’s one bit of info that is missing. We have all heard how coins are selling for X over spot - but, what are the dealers paying these people for the stuff they bring in? I’d love to know the delta between the in and out price of a gold coin.

Comment by packman
2009-01-19 08:40:17

Good question. I don’t know since I haven’t tried to sell any.

 
Comment by Azrenter
2009-01-19 08:43:23

One stat released recently stated that half of all the gold on the planet is in India. Lots of bangles and stuff that represents wealth there. Go figure, at least the folks in the Middle east will have a market for their baubles. Anyone want a seven star hotel? How about a private island in the world? Going to be a show that is for sure. Popcorn anyone?

 
Comment by Michael Viking
2009-01-19 09:05:49

At my dealer 1 oz Eagle:
buy: 860.00 sell: 900.00

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-01-19 09:13:42

Thanks, sounds reasonable enough. I don’t think the liquor store down the street with the “we buy gold” sign in the window would be as close. Somebody’s got to be making out like a bandit here.

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Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:11:03

they buy well below spot, but then they have to melt. that takes equipment and costs money.

(also a risk of ripoffs … stamped as 14k solid, but only 14k coat, though an expert should be able to usually spot the crap)

most “junk” gold jewelry was created in designs that are essentially unrepairable once kinked or broken (herringbone, hollow)–just ask any jeweler.

so, yes, you can make money on that, but if it were “that simple” to fire gold in a crucible, “everyone” would be doing it. duh.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 14:21:56

gator,

It’s not that difficult. I built a bench scale refinery during the last “boom” because the smelters wouldn’t take junk. My dealer had a trashcan full of heavy gold plate jewelry he couldn’t do anything with. I refined it, cast it into 5 oz bars and that he could move. We split the proceeds.

The boom didn’t last long.

 
Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-19 17:02:53

My husband & I had a side hobby/business for a little while reselling scrap precious metals, but it’s very hard to estimate what your “take” will be after it goes to the melt, even if you weigh it, take off 10-15 percent lost in the melting of it, etc. So, we don’t do it any more :) I will say that the fairest refinery that we dealt with was Northern Refineries. Some people also like Garfield. I never dealt with them as they are more geared to the industrial client than the occasional private client such as we were. We had a bad experience with Midwest Refiners.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 08:51:12

It’s really easy to get too far out on a limb. Those who learn life’s lessons at a young and flexible age fare better later in life. I think this is why my dad let me do stupid stuff when I was young, rather than “protect” me.

When you get old and stiff and fat and go out on a limb, without enough sense to see that there is no life in the thing, the fall can be very painful and very permanent.

 
Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:05:28

This morning I saw last year’s $999 MacBook Intel Duo go for $587 on Ebay.

Year-olds used to go for about 80% of new. Oh, and this one had MS Office suite installed, which is at least $99 extra value (student edition… other licenses cost more).

I think I see a new laptop in my future (current one has wacky power supply issues. also, hella slow, thank you IBM and your magical overheating CPUs. my iMac has a vornado fan on it 24/7. no sh–.).

I was astounded at Apple’s buoyancy, even late in the cycle. Incredibly, they are still selling iPhones, but their computer business is ****ed for the immediate future.

Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-19 11:19:13

True enough.
But my kid begs and pleads for an iPhone or cell phone in general, not a laptop or desktop, which I would be more inclined to provide. Cell marketers have been geniuses creating demand.
Of course, the margins on computers prolly aren’t very high. Though I can remember buying a IBM-PC back in the day (with a single-sided BUILT-IN floppy) and using basically a car loan to swing it. :)

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-19 11:38:58

Buying a laptop on eBay is very risky…

 
 
 
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-01-19 07:37:10

From the Boston Globe this morning.

Broker says she’s guilty in subprime loan case
By Jenifer B. McKim
Globe Staff / January 14, 2009

A Dorchester mortgage broker who helped unqualified home buyers secure subprime loans has pleaded guilty to forgery, larceny, and other criminal charges, the state attorney general’s office said yesterday.

Nicole Lyder, 34, was sentenced Monday to two years in the Suffolk County House of Correction after entering a plea in Suffolk Superior Court. The allegations included providing false financial information about clients to lenders, qualifying them for loans they couldn’t afford, and then collecting thousands of dollars in commissions.

Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:20:01

WOOOHOOO!! YES!!

Wait, you say only two year? Oh, no, they’d better not give her time off for good behavior or release with probation.

She needs at least 6-9 months for the idea “You did something WRONG, Nicole” to penetrate her shriveled brain and black, black heart.

I wonder if the Boston Globe will give her a regular column. They have a thing for staffing their editorial page with female felons.

Comment by not a gator
2009-01-19 10:21:49

I mean “time served plus probation.” Need to think for two seconds before posting.

and thank you, blogspotbot, for informing me that I am posting more than one comment every 60 seconds. because only a spamming robot could read their own comment and follow up on an error that quickly…

 
 
Comment by ylekiot1
2009-01-19 10:42:27

…That is one way for brokers to be able to eat for two years.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-19 16:18:29

Despite all the stories of fraud (and many, many more to come), I find it amazing that some folks still blame the “po’ folks” for this catastrophe.

 
 
Comment by Xenos
2009-01-19 07:56:09

Did some research on Charlotte, NC this weekend. City of 600,000 people, with nearly than 12,000 homes for sale - one for every 50 people. Maybe that included the metro area, as it can be hard to tell with realtor.com. The stunner is that there are more than 100 homes priced above 2 million dollars. Another 400 houses priced between 1 million and 2 million.

I am shocked. I googled the archives here and did not come up with any news about Charlotte. Main employers are BOA and Wachovia. Boy is that town in for a world of hurt!

Comment by polly
2009-01-19 12:11:36

But everyone wants to live there…..

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-19 09:07:30

Professor Bear

In case you didn’t get the answer to your question yesterday, you show < and > marks by using:

& lt ; and & gt ;

(Remove the spaces after the ampersands and before semicolons)

More details here

As you can see, you can also use:

& #62 ; and & #60 ;

Again, removing the spaces.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-19 09:09:36

Quick local story-

This pair of beauts bought a 1970’s era shack(and it’s a shack to be sure) for $118,000 (grossly overpaid back then) in 1999. Fast forward to 1/17/09. On the market for $280,000. Sellers told wife they owe $260,000 on it. Deer in headlights look when wifey informed them there are two new shacks (spec houses) a half mile down the road for $295k.

Wifey asked how a mortgage balance grew from 118k to $260k ten years later. No response. Wifey said you’ll never get 280 for it. Response? “We know that but we’re starting high because we want to be made whole”.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 09:20:39

Comment by Asparagus
2009-01-19 09:05:47
“I’m thinking of starting a hedge fund that promises a 0% return.

It’s a long/short strategy, long the SP500, short the SP500.
It’s a no lose (no gain) strategy.

I’m only sort of kidding.”

Inflation.

Maintaining a $0 change nominal value does not ensure a $0 change real value. Ask the people of Ice Land if maintiaing nominal value is the same as maintaining real value.

Your strategy is akin to the “stuff the mattress” investment strategy, just with a lot more transaction fees. If there is inflation, you lose. If there is deflation, you win.

The TRUE $0 lose/gain policy would be to go buy everything you are going to need for the rest of your life. The “stuff the basement with can foods and ammo” investment strategy.

Comment by SteelCurtain67
2009-01-19 10:32:12

Actually you can sort of do this with options, its called a straddle. You buy a put and a call with the same strike and exp. date. You make money if the market makes a biggish move in either direction.
People use them when there are rumors of big ‘news’ that might cause the stock to make a big move.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 13:32:31

And if there isn’t a big move, you lose. And if there isn’t a big move, but there is inflation, you lose bigger.

 
 
Comment by tresho
2009-01-19 10:35:32

The TRUE $0 lose/gain policy would be to go buy everything you are going to need for the rest of your life. The “stuff the basement with can foods and ammo” investment strategy. Presupposes that one really knows what one will need, and that one will never, ever have to move away.

Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-19 17:07:01

Well, not really, tresho. I would think that ammo and canned goods could be boxed up and carted away easily enough. I mean, if you built a concrete bunker, then you are stuck if you have to move, but little cans of stuff, whether it be ammo or food, is very easy.

Comment by tresho
2009-01-19 20:48:39

that ammo and canned goods could be boxed up and carted away easily enough An entire lifetime’s supply? Either you don’t expect to live very long, or you have never moved your household more than a few miles.

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Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-20 03:24:10

I have moved thousands of miles, and never had any trouble moving anything. People carry boxes out for you, you put it in your mode of transportation, and off you go. As far as a lifetime’s worth of food and ammo ? Well, it wouldn’t keep for 30-40 years - either the ammo or the food, even in cans, eh ? So, you and I’d have to think of something else, and come out of our bunkers sometime ! LOL.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 09:45:05

Te he he…

I just did a little comparison search between ZipRealty dot com’s MLS listings for our zip code (92127 Rancho Bernardo West) and RealtyTrac’s. It seems the foreclosure listings are beginning to swamp conventional MLS listings:

ZipRealty = 305 single family homes plus condos currently listed for sale

RealtyTrac = 970 homes listed, including pre-foreclosure, auctions, bank-owned, online-auction, government-owned, resale/MLS and for sale by owner.

This is a tectonic shift in the market which I interpret as a hopeful sign the NAR is losing its monopoly grip on the used home sales business.

Comment by Kim
2009-01-19 14:02:40

RealtyTrac does have some FSBOs on there that might have been counted in your 970 number, and agents can pay to get a listing put on the site, even when its not a foreclosure. Also, if both a primary and a HELOC are in simultaneous default, that can get counted twice. I’ve also seen random duplicates and REOs still on RealtyTrac long after they’ve found new owners.

I want to get to the bottom too. I’m just noting that RealtyTrac has a lot of quirks. Its an interesting site to browse, but their numbers mean very little.

 
Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2009-01-19 16:08:08

Also, there might be a lot of stale listings.

When Realtor dot com first started up years ago, they were very slow to take sold homes off their listings, thus the number of listings were a lot higher on Realtor dot com than the normal MLS listings.

To test this out, call a few of the extra listings on RealtyTrac and check their status.

 
 
Comment by Xenos
2009-01-19 09:54:38

Anyone familiar with Charlotte, NC? I did some research on it this weekend, and was stunned. First, there are more the 10,000 properties for sale, which seems awfully high for a city of 600,000 but maybe is not too bad for a metropolitan area of over 2 million.

The prices still being asked for luxury spec houses are incredible. According to Realtor.com, there are more than 100 properties for sale for more than 2 million, and another 400 listed for between 1 million and 2 million dollars. Where the hell are they going to find buyers for these?

Comment by packman
2009-01-19 10:07:10

From Bank of America or Wachovia employees, of course.

 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-19 11:24:16

is that really a high number for sale? In Netherlands we have about 150.000 homes for sale in a country of nearly 17 million people. And the Dutch move far less frequently than the average American (about once every 7-8 years, if I remember correctly).

 
Comment by Xenos
2009-01-19 11:43:56

Sorry about the double post. I waited two hours for the first one to show up before reposting. He hate me.

 
 
Comment by bink
2009-01-19 10:10:26

I’ve been struck with a slight dilemma as to what to do with my company 401k. We aren’t allowed to choose individual investments, instead we’re given a choice of 5 “strategies” ranging from “very conservative” to “aggressive.”

For the last 2-3 years I’ve held mine in “very conservative”, which has mostly been treasuries/TIPS. I’ve been more than happy with the 1-2% returns. Every quarter they send me a rebalance statement, usually buying more bonds. This quarter they’ve started investing me in a REIT(!). Seriously? Real estate as a “very conservative” investment strategy? I’m left with no options besides choosing a more aggressive strategy and hoping they don’t include real estate.

Well, that or stopping contributions all-together and moving it to an IRA or something.. but then I’d lose the company matching.

Comment by In Montana
2009-01-19 10:45:15

That sucks. You mean they added that as a separate fund or the fund added that to its holdings?

Sounds like *someone* wants more investment in RE.

Comment by bink
2009-01-19 12:08:15

The conservative option invests in multiple types of bonds and until now hadn’t invested in any mutual funds or stocks. The REIT investment is in a mutual fund geared towards REIT. The name of the fund is “iShares Cohen & Steers Realty Majors Index Fund”.

It looks like they’ve also started investing me in a Dow dividend index fund. Maybe they’re ahead of the curve, but I’d rather avoid real estate.. especially commercial.

 
 
Comment by ylekiot1
2009-01-19 10:51:26

Sounds to me like someone is getting paid to get conservative investers to help cover this reit crap. Since there are no options (I am in the same boat), maybe you could do a max loan from the 401, (if that is an option) and then taking that and parking it somewhere you could control would be the best strategy here. Then you could pay yourself back slowly (you pay yourself back in interest too) while limiting your exposure to junk if you think an L type of recovery is what will happen or a slow drop for some time.

 
Comment by Jon
2009-01-19 11:19:05

I’ve moved about 1/2 of my monthy contribution to my 401K scam to pay off my mortgage. I’m increasing my mortgage payment overall by $600/month which will allow me to pay it off in 5 years. My current interest rate is 4.75%. I’ll get a little back in saved interest and lose a little in taxes.

Once the mortgage is gone, I’m done with debt. Forever. If the stock market starts moving up strongly, I can always put the money back in. Right now, I just don’t see that happening for a few years.

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-19 10:15:38

Professor Bear

(Apologies if this duplicates)

In case you didn’t get an answer yesterday, you can insert < and < symbols like this:

& lt ; and & gt ;

Leave out the spaces after the ampersand and before the semicolon.

More info here

You can also use:

& #60 ; and & #62 ;

Again, leaving out the spaces

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 12:05:49

<Thanks! I bookmarked your link.>

 
Comment by Sagesse
2009-01-19 16:35:39

Testing:

 
 
Comment by black swan
2009-01-19 10:21:09

Blue Skye-Last week you mentioned that you read an article about rents dropping in the Phoenix area. Could you please refer me to that article as our lease expires the end of next month and I need a little ammunition to use in my negotiations. Thanks.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 11:52:46

The only ammunition you need is the willingness to move. Hunt around and find a place you are willing to move to, then decide at what price you will stay where you are. Make an offer to your landlord, and if he doesn’t set the price you want, you move.

If you really don’t want to move, then the landlord has the upper hand in the negotiations. No article on falling rents can take that from him. Only your willingness to move can give you the upper hand.

Comment by black swan
2009-01-19 12:42:48

The article is only intended to be a small part of the arsenal I’m preparing. I drove a hard bargain a year ago when we leased and I fully intend to do so again.

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 14:36:05

swan,

Sorry, I did not keep a record of the link. The article caught my eye because one of my kids is a renter in Glendale.

Good luck with your negotiations. My present LL is very motivated to keep me, hopefully yours is too.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 11:44:26

HELP!!!!!!

My employer just switched 401(k) administrators. We had Pension Inc, which had a nice Treasuries option that morphed into a “government” and started picking up GSE bonds.

We switched to The Principal.

Options:
Principal Fixed Income Guaranteed Option
69% corporate bonds, 16.2% mortgage loans, mix in small amounts of stocks, real estate, etc.

Ummm… NO THANKS.

Principal Core Plus Bond I Inst Fund
It shows as 170% bonds and -76% cash, so leveraged, right???
And the bonds?
34% mortgage, 30% Government, 8% US credit?? and 27% cash

Ummmm… again, NO THANKS. WAY too much mortgage exposure. And I REALLY don’t want to be leveraged into U.S. Government as it is a safety play, and leverage is ANTI safety.

ALL other options are stock based, except the self-directed.

Oh, and the self-directed has just a few fees….

Annual Fee To have an open Principal Self-Directed Brokerage Account $75
Transaction Fee For equities and mutual funds
$25 via Internet/TeleTouch
$35 representative assisted
Transaction Fee For fixed income securities
$35 representative assisted
Miscellaneous Fees Other fees charged by the clearing firm for specific transactions
Legal Item: $20 per issue
Inactive Fee (annual): $25
Funds Wired: $20
Reorganization Items:
Mandatory: $5
Non-Mandatory: $20
Transfer of Accounts/Outbound (Individual): $75
Dividend Reinvestment: $1 per item

What do I do?????

Pull the money as a loan from myself and stick it in CDs?
Can I roll $10K a year from the 401(k) to IRA?

Comment by polly
2009-01-19 12:26:37

Contact local press and see if you can interest someone in a big investigative piece about companies in the area moving 401ks to new administrators with no safe funds options. Tell reporter the companies are likely doing this to force people to stop making 401k contributions to save money, so any companies changing administrators now are almost certainly in financial trouble.

If you don’t think this is actually happening, go to management and howl that HR is doing this and not leaving any remotely safe investments for retirement accounts. Point out that while federal government employees have very few choices (5 plus lifecycle funds), they at least have a government securities fund. Why shuouldn’t you have at least one safe fund like federal employees have?

See here for the choices available to federal employees in the TSP program: http://www.tsp.gov/rates/fundsheets.html

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 13:28:40

I called Principal. They say they have several treasury and/or treasury/GSE bond funds. Employeers select options avaialble when they sign up, so I have to go to my employer and get them to add this option.

Sent a note off to HR, and got atleast 4 co-workers to do so also.

Comment by Kim
2009-01-19 13:50:52

Good luck, Darrell!

If it doesn’t fly, contribute only enough to get the employer match (if there is one). Then max out your (and spouse’s) IRA (if you are eligible) or Roth IRA. Then go back and contribute the rest to the 401K.

IRAs have so much more investment flexibility than 401Ks do.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-19 14:38:08

Isn’t one of the eligibility requirements for an IRA that you do not have a 401K available to you?

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Comment by polly
2009-01-19 17:56:12

Yes. See irs publication 590 (I looked it up for someone yesterday). Poke around on irs.gov for it. Warning, it will be a pdf, a big one.

 
Comment by cactus
2009-01-19 19:31:25

Isn’t one of the eligibility requirements for an IRA that you do not have a 401K available to you?

no I don’t think so. I went round and round years ago with a friend I worked with who insisted his accountant said he could not fund an IRA because of the 401K. he was wrong and his accountant must be confused.

401K gets confused with defined benefit plans or pensions

I made many calls on this my friend still didn’t beleive me even when I called the IRS.

 
 
Comment by devo
2009-01-19 19:44:06

401k limitations are determined by whatever is stated in the 401k “Plan Document”. If you have your own business you can start up a 401k and invest in anything you like, as long as the Plan allows it. There are independant Pension Service companies who can set this up.

We use our 401k amongst other things, to trade options and avoid the short term capital gains tax we would otherwise have to pay.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 15:44:39

Darrell,

Most money market funds backed by 100 % U.S. treasuries closed their funds to new money back in November for fear if interest rates should go up as fast as equities went down these funds would be caught with high redemptions they could not fill. The funds still open either have repurchase agreements or corporate paper still a part of their investment mix. We have heard your concerns and when the Committee next meets to review the investment options we will take your recommendation under advisement with the options we have available at that time.

In addition to your comment of “Very HIGH fees” on the brokerage account I respectfully disagree with you. In a normal market as well as the market we are in this fee structure is average to low. Let’s face it unless you put your money under the mattress you are not going to take 100% of the risk out of any investment and to be invested costs some administrative fees. The number one reason people moved their money to U.S. treasuries or funds backed by them was for the goal of preservation of principal not return hence why the rates are trading near zero and for a brief time they were even negative in the past weeks. Yes you had to pay the fund to take your money. So, $75.00 is a small price to pay in addition to transactions fees if you want to build a portfolio of U.S. treasuries with different duration and rate characteristics. The principal platform is a much better plan than where we came from as investment choices, education and web tools are all better however the market conditions are to the point no one has seen in generations.

Regards,

Tom

Comment by cactus
2009-01-19 19:52:43

“Most money market funds backed by 100 % U.S. treasuries closed their funds to new money back in November for fear if interest rates should go up as fast as equities went down these funds would be caught with high redemptions they could not fill.”

I read they closed because interest rates are so low that with expenses the funds would lose money even paying 0%

Comment by Darrell in PHX
2009-01-20 00:00:17

Ding, ding, ding….

It is about the broker collecting its fees, and with rates where they are, no room for fees. Therefore, no safe plans for the clients.

Where are the client’s yaghts?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2009-01-19 19:47:29

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/FundFamily/Snapshot.asp?Country=USA&Symbol=84319

Principal Core Plus Bond I Institutional PCBZX a new fund

I never heard of the Principal but here is a Morning star link you can check it out.

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-19 13:11:47

“The age of excess in 2004-06, those days are over,” says Dennis Smith, president of Home Builders Research. “They will never return.” We’ll see.

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/news/2009/jan/08/house-loses/#

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 13:48:18

Hoz posted this above, but it is so deep in a chain that there is no room to post under, so I’m plucking this out.

“Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 09:54:41
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/EXCRESNS.txt

Excess bank savings rate for reserves.
2008-03-01 2.978
2008-04-01 1.844
2008-05-01 2.011
2008-06-01 2.272
2008-07-01 1.977
2008-08-01 1.988
2008-09-01 60.051
2008-10-01 267.905
2008-11-01 559.051
2008-12-01 767.422

Dollars in Billions.

Consumer savings rate is just as spectacular. The data is all available.”

Bernanke says this is all the TARP and Fed swap money. Banks are holding it to cover future losses. So, as the losses are booked and the swaps expire, this money just goes away, right?

It isn’t real money that they could loan out long-term, or hand out as dividends.

Do you have details on the consumer savings?

Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 17:51:11

Personal saving — DPI less personal outlays — was $298.0 billion in November, compared with $252.3 billion in October. Personal saving as a percentage of disposable personal income was 2.8 percent in November, compared with 2.4 percent in October. Saving from current income may be near zero or negative when outlays are financed by borrowing (including borrowing financed through credit cards or home equity loans), by selling investments or other assets, or by using savings from previous periods.
For more information, see the FAQs on “Personal Saving” on BEA’s Web site. For a comparison of personal saving in BEA’s national income and product accounts with personal saving in the Federal
Reserve Board’s flow of funds accounts and data on changes in net worth (which help finance consumption), go to
http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/Nipa-Frb.asp.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 22:26:41

That link doesn’t work. Try this one:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/PSAVERT?cid=112

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 18:16:05

They already loaned it out. It’s out there. It paid the homebuilders, who paid the gas stations, the grocery stores, the boobie doctors, etc.

When they write it off, that means it ain’t coming back, since the loans that are written off don’t get paid off. Thus the money doesn’t go away.

If the TARP money didn’t flow in - then the writeoffs would subtract from reserves, preventing the creation of new money (via new loans). However thanks to the TARP money the banks will start making new loans (i.e. creating new money) sooner than they otherwise would.

At least that’s how I understand it. I may be wrong.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 18:19:45

This is a lot more than just TARP moneys. Citi lost its 25B, BofA burned through its 25B fugget qabout AIG and Chrysler.

This is real banks with borrowers that paid their bills in a timely fashion. These banks will not lend until the 1st Q after all shocks have happened and then only to the safest borrowers.

There has never been a better time to be a bank, the fed is paying interest on the reserves. Why lend it out?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 19:05:04

John Candy on Second City TV: “D’ju see that? They blew it up! They blew it up real good!!!”

 
 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-19 13:54:37

How come it takes hours for any of my posts to go through?

Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-19 13:59:53

Hey - that one went through right away.

Hmmmmm ….

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 14:40:23

Many posts are trapped by the spam filter, and Ben has to release them. That is taking much longer than usual today.

Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-19 15:19:55

I wonder what I am writing that is triggering the spambot?

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 15:56:22

I don’t know, but I have about a dozen still locked up.

 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-19 16:16:39

Same here - impossible to get a flow going.

Appreciate the spam filter, though.

 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-01-19 14:01:44

You should pick a different username.

:-)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 13:56:18

Check out the pie chart down the article, first one I have seen regarding the new ’stimulator’ plan…825b

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/sobolev/sobolev011909.html

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-19 14:15:25

Holy crap, if this happens, you talk about a POS! LOL!

Reports: Chrysler, Fiat holding discussions about potential partnership

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) — Fiat SpA is holding discussions with Chrysler LLC about taking a stake in the U.S. car maker and creating a partnership that would allow the Italian auto maker to build and sell its small cars in the United States, two publications reported Monday.

Unnamed officials familiar with the discussions told The Wall Street Journal and Automotive News that Chrysler would have access to the Turin-based automaker’s engine and transmission technology as part of a potential deal.

Chrysler spokeswoman Lori McTavish said in a statement Monday that “in today’s economic environment, talks are going on between companies in all industries — ours is no different.” McTavish said Chrysler as a policy “does not confirm or disclose the nature of its private business meetings.”

A Fiat official did not immediately comment on the reports.

Fiat Group SpA, which makes Fiat, Lancia and Alfa Romeo vehicles, has been trying to re-enter the United States for the first time since 1983. The company has expressed interest in bringing its Fiat 500 compact car and the Alfa Romeo brand to the U.S. market.

Chrysler, which is 80.1 percent owned by Cerberus Capital Management LLP, has been hurt by its reliance upon slow-selling trucks and sport utility vehicles and analysts have said it probably won’t survive the year as an independent company despite receiving a $4 billion government loan.

The Treasury Department said Friday it will provide a $1.5 billion loan to Chrysler’s financing arm, Chrysler Financial, and the automaker plans to offer zero-percent financing on several models and expand lending to car buyers with less than ideal credit.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 15:15:59

Hoz wrote:
“Jane Wino borrows $100K and spends it on boobies. She defaults on the loan. Bank writes off loan and gets government moneys to support bank from failure. It matters who takes the slap for the old debt. Not who gets new debt.

What happened to the $100K that Ms. Wino borrowed for her new boobies?”

It ended up being passed through a Wall Street bank, and the mega-gazillionaires skilled it off and handed it out as an end-of-year bonuses.

1% of the population controlls 90+% of the wealth (Probably an exageration, but intended to make a point). Too bad those 1% of the people can’t buy all the oil, all the food, all the cheap goods from China…

The 90% of the people that use 85% of the stuff, ain’t got no moooooooney.

Unless we figure out a way to get money into the hands of the little people, and for them to not just use it to pay down debt, demand will continue to crash and supply grow, and we will continue to see deflation.

Keeping mega-gazillionaires, mega-gazillionaires is NOT going to help those that have been living on debt continue to consume beyond their means.

Comment by (Soon to be ex-) GS fixer
2009-01-19 16:02:52

A lot of plastic surgeons were doing the financing on new boobies……I wonder who holds the CDOs on them?

I might need to go out and buy some of that paper, @10% of book, then start “foreclosures”

“Yes ma’am, I know you have lost your “position” and can no longer make the payments………I’m here to do a “work-out” with you……..NINJA?……..on the contrary, you still have “assets”…….”

(Then I woke up…..)

Maybe I should look into a new job, writing scripts for porn movies.

Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 16:16:04

lol

The Adventures of Joe Sixpack and Jane Wino.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-19 16:18:23

The boobies are more like $10K, aren’t they?

And, they rolled them onto the HELOC, so they’ll just say, “Take the house, please!”

Comment by Carl Morris
2009-01-19 16:55:04

Sounds like a variation on the “with this/these I can get all of those I want” joke.

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Comment by Paul in Florida
2009-01-19 19:40:35

Mega-gazillionaire envy? Move to Zimbabwe, change a few buckos, and become an instant mega-gazillionaire. Current quote (Bloomberg) is $17,171,712 ZWD = $1 USD. Don’t accept a penny less.

 
 
Comment by ACH
2009-01-19 15:16:06

“Wall Street Cynical on Bailouts”

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1005183738

WS can just KMA!

Roidy

Comment by Sagesse
2009-01-19 18:13:31

The question that I always wanted to ask: what does ‘roidy’ mean ??

Comment by silverback1011
2009-01-20 03:26:14

I always assumed it was a shortened form of “hemorrhoid”, a diminutive if you will ( and hopefully it’s a diminutive hemorrhoid ).

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 16:50:16

How bad is the U.S. new home construction market? As documented on this graph, housing starts last year were the lowest in 50 years, by a significant amount.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 17:27:16

Housing market optimists (like Chris Thornberg) who say the market will bottom out by 2009 seem to have lost sight of the ARM reset schedule. The reset tsunami does not crest until 2011 as shown in this famous Ivy Zelman chart. I can’t imagine why anyone would assume the market will bottom out before that point.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 17:27:46

Vozzie
Will Citi sell its Japanese holdings to Mitsubishi UFJ? 1st Morgan and now a home base. They wanna be a big player.

Citi spent $15B on expansion last year of the Nikko Cordial (Sounds like a drink) and gonna punt for a few B. God Citi’s trading department stunk.

Every day that Citi is open, the bank loses at least $50MM from its trading desk. Pathetic mopes.

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-19 18:46:51

must be true, rumors these days cant be confirmed until a denial is published in Forbes.

Maybe Citi is throwing in all the tankers of oil they have parked in the gulf of Mexico… Oil is free dontcha know.

Comment by hoz
2009-01-19 19:01:30

Morgan is buying the oil to store in wells in the gulf. lol

And the rest of the world is paying over $46 for the stuff. If it is raining on LaSalle St who cares if there is a drought in Iowa, grain is stilling going down.

It is like free moneys if you can play the game.

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-19 19:36:52

Cordially,
Mitsubishi Morgan Union Smith Saloman Barney Stanley Bank Financial Limited Brothers ….

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Comment by vozworth
2009-01-19 20:21:50

Nikkie workin a 7 handle…

testing the lows, oil bottoming hard….

permission to launch the weapon?

uhh, I mean permission to deploy the assets?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Paul in Florida
2009-01-19 18:00:06

This market is looking like being real ugly this week - equities and bonds both. If the market responds to the inauguration the way they did to the election, watch out. I’d say at least a 50-50 chance for new lows in equities by the end of the month.

Off for a short visit to Colombia tomorrow - avoiding the hurlworthy inauguration proceedings and a cold spell arriving here.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 18:47:14

I hate whiny kids at the beach!

Suggestion: Don’t buy a home until the TAF is shut down. Unless you believe in the hyperinflation-reflation scenario, in which case you should buy ten foreclosure homes as investments ASAP :-)

Monday, January 5, 2009
Decoder: Term Auction Facility
Trader watching markets

Some financial experts would tell you to thank your lucky stars for the Term Auction Facility, which has helped keep the rough economy going. Janet Babin explains how by taking us for a walk on the beach.

The Federal Reserve has always lent banks emergency cash through its Discount Window. The Term Auction Facility came into the mix when things got crazy about a year ago. It also gives banks loans, but the terms are longer — sometimes up to 84 days.

Seiberg: The large banks submit bids to the Fed on how much they’re willing to pay to get that money. And the Federal Reserve shifts through the bids and decides who the winners are.

The auction’s happen every two weeks. And Seiberg says we should be glad they do:

Seiberg: We should be singing hallelujah. Because this was a desperately needed solution to a liquidity crunch at the banks.

If the banks don’t have cash to lend, the economy screeches to a halt.

Professor Bill Brown at Duke Law School says its like whiny kids at the beach when all but one of their toys gets washed away:

Bill Brown: And so what the Fed is doing with this facility is saying we know that you’re no longer sharing toys, because you only have one toy each. We’re going to give you more toys.

In hopes that if banks get enough toys, they’ll start sharing again. But so far, that hasn’t happened, even though the Fed has been lending $150 billion every two weeks through the TAF program.

Brown: We should be worried that the Fed is exploding its balance sheet, we should be worried that things aren’t getting better, even though we keep trying to throw more money at it.

Yeah, can’t we all just go back to the beach? Maybe when the Fed closes the Term Auction Facility. That would be a sign that the economic tide has shifted.

I’m Janet Babin for Marketplace

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 19:01:08

SOS!!! The three-headed dog needs a bailout immediately!

Cerberus to cut staff as it seeks assistance
By Martin Arnold in London
Published: January 19 2009 21:01 | Last updated: January 19 2009 21:01

Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity group specialising in stripping costs out of struggling companies, is taking some of its own medicine with plans to cut 10 per cent of its 275 members of staff.

While Cerberus is the latest in a string of big private equity groups to announce cost-cutting measures as a result of financial and economic turmoil, its move underlines the massive problems it faces at some of its most recent investments.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 19:02:09

Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity group specialising in stripping costs out of struggling companies, is taking some of its own medicine with plans to cut 10 per cent of its 275 members of staff.

BwaHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAHAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-19 20:41:32

Enraged citizens throwing stuff at City Hall?
Furious over budget cuts and empty shelves?
25% of the folks suddenly out of work?
Nation on verge of bankruptcy?

You might think that kind of thing will happen someplace else, if it ever does.

Well, it IS happening somewhere else right now.
Just give it 6 months to a year, and it’ll be on our doorstep:

http://tinyurl.com/ayblgd

My humble advice is: stock up and get prepared for some nasty times. Have a talk with your family and decide just WHAT you need to stock up on.

Comment by The Housing Wizard
2009-01-19 23:46:51

Wow ,that article is sort of alarming . Sometimes I forget just how World-wide this financial/real estate bubble was .

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 05:16:58

Thanks for the link, cobalt!

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-01-19 20:58:14

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Monday ordered changes to this year’s federal budget to take into account the sharp drop in global oil prices, a decision that could pave the way for further spending of the Reserve Fund.

The Finance Ministry must base the budget on the price of $41 per barrel, or less than half of the $95-per-barrel estimate that is a cornerstone of the existing budget…A Finance Ministry spokesman said the prices were for Russia’s main Urals blend…The Urals price averaged $42.90 in the first 16 days of this month, Economic Development Minister Elvira Nabiullina said…
—–
devalued Ruble, skyrocketing rates…..troubled times indeed behind the curtain…

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-19 21:08:18

The new car showroom of 2010:

http://tinyurl.com/7dd73d

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 22:28:35

Asian Stocks, U.S. Futures Fall as Recession Concern Deepens
By Shani Raja

Jan. 20 (Bloomberg) — Asian stocks and U.S. futures slumped after the U.K. widened a rescue plan for Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc, sparking concerns that more companies will need bailouts as the global recession deepens.

“We are in the middle of the economic Pearl Harbor right now,” billionaire investor and Berkshire Hathaway Inc. Chairman Warren Buffett told NBC in an interview aired on Jan. 18. “Now we have to get mobilized to win the war.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 22:31:27

Is this for real, or pure tinfoil?

FINANCE-US: Treasury Nominee Failed to Halt Bond Scam
By Lucy Komisar*

NEW YORK, Jan 19 (IPS) - U.S. senators at Timothy Geithner’s confirmation hearing for Treasury Secretary Wednesday may want to ask him about a failure to act that is costing the U.S. a lot more than the amount he evaded on taxes.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which he has led since 2003, conducts the operations on Wall Street of the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington, the country’s central bank. The New York Fed under Geithner’s presidency has failed to stop massive naked short selling of U.S. Treasury bonds that threatens the stability of the market and sale of the bonds.

Ironically, the scam, enabled by a lack of regulation at the behest of Wall Street brokerage houses, makes it more expensive for the U.S. to bail out those same financial institutions.

It happens this way: an individual or fund is allowed to sell bonds without owning them. This is called short selling. The seller, whose broker has generally “borrowed” bonds from another broker, is supposed to subsequently buy them on the market, and return them to the lender. The seller does this because he believes that the bond is going down, and he will buy them at a cheaper price than he sold them for.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 22:33:19

Dealbook
Obama’s Bailout Challenge
By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN
Published: January 19, 2009

Another week, another bailout.

Governments in several countries are suddenly scrambling to deliver a second round of financial support to their teetering banking systems, after a first wave handed out at the height of the financial crisis failed miserably in its mission of getting credit flowing again.

Britain on Monday set the stage for a full takeover of its banking system. And now, Barack Obama is trying to figure out how to shore up this nation’s banking industry as its crisis snowballs.

Mr. Obama is going to have one heck of a first day on the job. Already, his aides have a bevy of ideas to sift through, ranging from having government buy banks’ troubled assets, to creating a “bad bank” to soak them up.

And it doesn’t stop there. Others say he should follow the model of Sweden and flat-out nationalize the American banking system. Or he should inject more money into the banks and force them to lend it. Another view says he should take a page from Henry M. Paulson Jr., the Treasury secretary, and try to “ring fence” the entire system with the equivalent of government insurance for banks.

Lawrence H. Summers, Mr. Obama’s chief economic adviser, hinted Sunday that he’d been developing a new plan, and seemed to suggest he was leaning toward finding a way to press banks to lend more money. “The focus isn’t going to be on the needs of banks,” he said. “It’s going to be on the needs of the economy for credit.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-19 22:39:18

Here we are back to the philosophical debate over whether taxpayers or someone else will get to eat the fallout from the Fed’s printing binge.

Wall Street Journal

* JANUARY 20, 2009

Fed Grapples With a New Risk Reality
Balance Sheet Swells From the Assets Accumulated on a Rescue Tour
By SERENA NG and LIZ RAPPAPORT

It has loads of subprime-mortgage bonds, souring commercial real-estate debt and collateralized debt obligations worth a fraction of their original value. This isn’t Citigroup Inc. or Merrill Lynch. It is the Federal Reserve.

In the past year, the Fed lent out more than $1 trillion in its efforts to stabilize the financial and credit markets. A chunk of that was used to buy mortgage-related securities and loans in the rescues of Bear Stearns Cos. and American International Group Inc., as well as other debt shunned by investors.

Now, the government’s recent aid packages for Bank of America Corp. and Citigroup have the Fed playing the additional role of a backstop guarantor for portfolios of about $400 billion in troubled assets that were dragging down those banks. Those assets include residential- and commercial-mortgage loans, mortgage securities, corporate leveraged loans and credit-derivative positions.

Over the past year, the Federal Reserve (above) has assumed, backstopped or committed to take on some $2 trillion in assets from financial institutions and companies including Bear Stearsn, AIG, Citigroup and Bank of America.

As the U.S. central bank, the Fed has a mission to maintain financial and economic stability and contain systemic risk in the markets. It lends only when the loans can be “secured to [its] satisfaction,” according to laws that govern the Fed’s activities.

But as the economy slows, mortgage and corporate defaults climb, and asset prices continue to decline, analysts are beginning to argue that U.S. taxpayers could end up shouldering losses from some of the Fed’s moves.

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-20 05:22:52

But as the economy slows, mortgage and corporate defaults climb, and asset prices continue to decline, analysts are beginning to argue that U.S. taxpayers could end up shouldering losses from some of the Fed’s moves.

LOL! Gee, ya think?

They act as if that wasn’t the plan all along. Do they really think we’re that stupid?

 
 
Comment by Earl The Vagabond
2009-01-22 20:19:21

test

 
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