Bitter Former Owners In California
The Ventura County Star reports from California. “Rose Vicente is tired of waiting. Sixteen months after she and her husband, Manny, put their Simi Valley home up for sale for $650,000, they decided they couldn’t put their life on hold any longer. Although they still are waiting for a buyer, the Vicentes purchased a home in Wildomar, Riverside County, and plan to move in February. Last year, the Vicentes told The Star they wouldn’t budge when they lowered their asking price on their five-bedroom house to $495,000. Their outlook has since changed.”
“The Vicentes just slashed their asking price to $379,000, a 42 percent reduction from their original asking price. Their experience mirrors what is happening in the weak housing market. For the Vicentes, the substantial price drops gave them the ability to buy a second house in California, without being forced to wait until they sold their Simi Valley home. They decided on Riverside County because they were able to buy a 3,500-square-foot house — twice the size of their current home — for $300,000.”
“The space was important, Vicente said, since her son and daughter-in-law and their two children have moved in with them. ”Getting more house for your dollar is more important because grandchildren and kids are moving back home they can no longer afford to live on their own,’ she said.”
“It’s been a tough road, and not just for sellers, Vicente said. As buyers, she and her husband were surprised to see severely damaged homes with kitchens and tubs torn out by bitter former owners.She said she is hoping that the market will stabilize within the next five years so her family can move to Texas.”
The Sacramento Bee. “In 2008, long to be remembered for fear and opportunity, capital-area investor Scott Arbuckles and partners also saw the sudden opening. Last year, he bought eight Sacramento County repos priced below $120,000 to fix up and rent. By December, investors like him accounted for one in four home sales in the county – the most since mid-2004 – according to statistics released Tuesday by MDA DataQuick.”
“‘In a period of a couple months, the banks started selling properties at prices that would allow an investor to come in and make in excess of 10 percent per year,’ he said.”
“Free-falling median prices throughout 2008 testified mainly to lenders’ efforts to dump repo properties after 19,000 foreclosures in the region from January through September. The median price in Sacramento County, hardest hit by the region’s foreclosure crisis, fell almost $100,000 the past year.”
“Even as repos pushed the region’s 2008 sales within a shout of 2006 totals, overall sales were still among the lowest since 1998, said DataQuick analyst Andrew LePage. ‘It’s fair to say we’ve seen the beginning of a recovery in sales,’ said LePage. ‘But it’s a strange recovery that’s not as broad-based as you’d usually see. A lot of starter homes sold and nothing happened. A lender gets the money back, but no one is moving up.’”
“The outlook for 2009: more of the same, said LePage. ‘I think so much is riding on the health of the job market this year in Sacramento. For the market to really stabilize, you have to end that vicious cycle of foreclosures in hard-hit areas, and it’s going to be hard to do that if more people are thrown out of work,’ he said.”
The LA Times. “California’s system for providing jobless benefits is quickly running out of money even as state government is scrambling to keep up with the highest level of unemployment in almost 15 years. Chad Boyer, a laid-off newspaper advertising salesman from San Diego, had an even harder time. In November, he called the state’s toll-free number 802 times over a three-week period to check on his claim. He did not get through even once.”
“‘I think it’s easier to call a radio station and get free tickets to a Pink Floyd show than to get a live person at EDD,’ he said. ‘It’s a nightmare.’”
The Santa Cruz Sentinel. “The outdoor mall city leaders have been banking on for the past decade to bolster the city’s economy and draw shoppers from around the region has been put on ice by the Ohio-based developer. Stanbery Development says the troubled economy has dried up bank loans needed to launch such a project and that many retailers aren’t in the mood to expand.”
“‘The financial markets have basically stopped all cash flow for funding projects,’ Gregory Hall, VP of development for Stanbery, wrote in a letter to city officials.”
“‘Name a retailer, they’re all suffering,’ Mayor Randy Johnson said. “If you build it, you have to have people come rent it. Otherwise, you have a ghost town.’”
The Marin Independent Journal. “Several real estate firms have scaled back operations in Marin, particularly in Novato, where home sales dropped sharply last year. Valerie Castellana, a former president of the Marin Association of Realtors, said she recently closed two sales in San Rafael. But, she said, ‘the buyers are driving very hard bargains these days. They expect to get deals. Sellers are having to determine if they’re in a place where they can go along with that or do they need to hold on and wait for the market to return.’”
The Union Tribune. “Setting a grim record for monthly gains, notices of home-loan default in San Diego County surged by 121 percent in December over November. The notices, which mark the start of the foreclosure process, totaled 31,099 for all of last year, a 54 percent jump over 2007, the MDA DataQuick research firm reported yesterday.”
“The annual totals were the highest since DataQuick began keeping track of county foreclosures in 1988 and defaults in 1992, outpacing the tallies of the mid-1990s, during Southern California’s last big housing slump.”
“Many analysts say they are not certain when the pace of foreclosures will slow or when home prices will stop falling. ‘That is the big question for all real estate economists,’ said Mark Goldman, a real estate finance instructor at San Diego State University. ‘There is a consensus that we will hit a bottom halfway through 2009, but I am not anticipating a rapid recovery.’”
The North County Times. “Reeling from a historic glut of foreclosures —- there have been 15,000 in Southwest Riverside County since January 2007 —- banks have been slow to kick out defaulted homeowners and resell the properties. Mark McKinzie is fed up with the foreclosures on his block. Last week, he took aim at the banks that own the properties, and said he hopes his neighbors will help.”
“McKinzie hopes to shame banks into taking care of the foreclosed properties through a Web site he launched last week. McKinzie’s frustrations began when the house next door became vacant in April 2007. Since then, the lawn died and the yard was overrun by weeds so high that McKinzie said he took it upon himself to mow it. The story behind the house has been a mystery; McKinzie has been unable to track down the lender and the house is not listed as a foreclosure.”
“‘I work hard to keep my property looking nice,’ he said. ‘But now, when people come over, instead of saying, ‘You have a nice home,’ the first thing they say is, ‘What’s going on next door?’”
“And it’s not just the house next door. McKinzie said that each time he drives down a block, he sees at least one foreclosure with the typical markings of blight —- brown lawn, trash, toppled signs from real estate agents. “One out of every nine homes in Murrieta has been foreclosed on by banks over the last two years, according to data from ForeclosureRadar and the U.S. Census.”
“in a market where average prices have already fallen by more than 35 percent, McKinzie said he is hoping to prod banks into taking care of the properties and preventing any further damage to his own property’s value. ‘When the market does turn around, this is going to sell for $20,000 less than it would have,’ he said. ‘And that becomes a comparable sale for my house. That’s going to take me another year to recoup that equity.’”
The Pasadena Star News. “An Altadena woman charged by federal authorities with operating an $18 million real estate investment scheme that targeted African Americans was sentenced Tuesday to 12 1/2 years in prison and ordered to pay more than $8.6 million in restitution. Jeanetta M. Standefor operated Accelerated Funding Group (AFG) in Pasadena, was sentenced in federal court in Los Angeles by U.S. District Judge Percy Anderson.”
“Through AFG, Standefor operated a bogus ‘foreclosure reinstatement’ program that attracted more than 600 investors between 2005 and 2007, federal prosecutors said in a news release. The scheme used the investors’ funds to cure defaults on distressed properties about to be put into foreclosure. While soliciting investor money and promising returns of up to 50 percent in time periods as short as one month, Standefor and AFG were instead operating a Ponzi scheme that used money from new investors to pay previous investors.”
“Standefor pleaded guilty in September to two counts of mail fraud. Written materials put out by AFG touted its foreclosure reinstatement program as ‘virtually risk-free’ and promised investors that their principal would be safely returned within 72 hours at their request. However, Standefor and AFG did not use investor funds to cure defaults on any residential properties, and investors’ requests for return of their investments were ignored.”
“Standefor used more than $1.9 million of investor funds for personal expenses, including a lavish wedding for herself and a honeymoon, cars, jewelry, tickets to entertainment events and home renovations.”
The Associated Press. “‘Ms. Standefor exploited the housing crisis for her own benefit with false promises of help for troubled homeowners and fictitious profits for those willing to help,’ said U.S. Attorney Thomas P. O’Brien.”
“Investors were promised their money would be multiplied by as much as 50 percent within in a month. Deputy Federal Public Defender Charles Brown said he hoped the judge would sentence his client to five or six years in prison. ‘It seems like a harsh sentence for one person,’ Brown said of the sentence, adding Standefor had no criminal record. ‘It’s a tough time to be accused of a financial crime right now.’”
The San Francisco Chronicle. “Bay Area apartment rents will soften and vacancies will edge up in 2009, giving tenants more leverage, according to a forecast from an influential real estate firm. ‘It’s clear that with job losses in 2008 and continuing in 2009, and a fair amount of competition from excess single-family homes and condos entering the market, 2009 will be a very challenging year for apartment owners,’ said Hessam Nadji, managing director of research for Marcus & Millichap Real Estate Investment Services, in its Walnut Creek office.”
“Those excess homes and condos, which M&M terms ’shadow market rentals,’ largely are bank-owned foreclosures purchased by investors who then rent them out. ‘It will be more of a tenants’ market because of the higher vacancies and less pricing power’ for landlords, Nadji said.”
“The East Bay region, which comprises Alameda and Contra Costa counties, is the hardest hit by the foreclosure crisis and thus most likely to have ’shadow rentals,’ Nadji said. The forecast said that effective rents will finish 2009 at $1,370 a month, up 2.5 percent. But Nadji thinks that prediction may need to be revised downward to a projected rent growth of zero or even rent declines in 2009.”
“‘Job losses for Oakland have worsened,’ he said. ‘Our expectation is that rent growth for 2009 may not materialize there.’”
The Press Enterprise. “A wave of bargain shoppers caused Riverside County to post the best December on record for sales of existing homes. San Bernardino County saw the most closed escrows on existing homes for any December since 2005, which was during the housing boom, according to MDA DataQuick.”
“That doesn’t mean the Inland housing market has recovered its health, because about 70 percent of the sales were houses that lenders had repossessed from owners who could not afford their mortgages.”
“Last month the median price of homes that sold in Riverside County was $209,000, down more than 41 percent from December 2007. The median home price in San Bernardino County was $180,000, almost 43 percent lower than a year earlier.”
“‘The faltering economy has not significantly dampened first-time-buyer enthusiasm,’ said James Monks, branch manager for Prudential California Realty in Riverside. ‘We have had a handful of folks drop out of their search because they have been laid off, but it is nowhere near as bad as it could be.’”
“‘So many people who thought they would be lifelong renters want to jump in now when rates are good and inventory plentiful’ to buy entry-level priced homes, said Monks.”
The LA Daily News. “The wave of home foreclosures that swept over the Southern California real-estate market in 2008 pushed prices to five-year lows and sales to their lowest level in at least 20 years. MDA DataQuick reported that 201,894 new and previously owned houses and condominiums were sold last year, 2,248 fewer than the previous 20-year low of 204,142 sold in 2007. DataQuick’s records date back to 1988.”
“Even a 50.5 percent year-over-year sales surge in December could not salvage the dismal showing for 2008. Last month, 19,926 new and previously owned houses and condos changed owners, up from 13,240 sales a year earlier, according to the San Diego- based company. But just 1,813 of those sales were for new homes - the lowest for a December in the company’s databases.”
“‘The builders are in a holding pattern, staying alive until the market recovers,’ DataQuick President John Walsh said in a statement.”
“The region’s median home price tumbled 35 percent, to $260,000, a loss of $147,000 in 12 months, the company said. In most areas, the median price is now back to levels last seen in early to mid-2003, the company said. The December report showed that in Los Angeles County, the region’s biggest market, sales increased an annual 32 percent, to 5,848 properties, and the median price fell 32 percent, to $320,000. This is the lowest price since a $320,000 median in July 2003.”
“The typical monthly mortgage payment was $1,239 last month, compared with $1,380 in November and $2,060 in December 2007. Adjusted for inflation, current payments were 44 percent below those made in the spring of 1989, the peak of the prior real estate crisis. They were 54 percent below the current cycle’s peak in July 2007.”
San Diego and Local Area Folks:
There’s a FREE event starting tomorrow at the Scottish Rite Center. The Real Wealth Expo runs tomorrow through Sunday. I’ll be definitely going to the programs by Bruce Norris, Bill Tan and Robert Campbell and hopefully the foreclosure speakers, most of the others are either not my taste (motivational) or are more advanced than what I’m ready for. But I strongly recommend these three speakers and suspect the others will be very, very good if you like their subject matter. Here’s the schedule and from there you can link to the free registration (Warning - one page PDF):
http://tinyurl.com/RealWealth
If you have any other questions e-mail me at sd.re.b@hotmail.com
Didn’t Robert Campbell used to post here, in the very early days?
He was definately a poster on SDCIA board during the Geoff drama.
Whatever happened to Geoff? Funny Farm? Immigrated to an agrarian province in west China? What a housing disaster he was.
Taco bell Geoff?
Check out all the signs of speculation by regular folk in these articles:
From the Sac Bee. ‘But the move-up buyer from Arizona paid in the “mid-fours,” he said. The deal was a distress sale that helped owners out of a jam, spared a bank further losses and settled his family in a suburban city of 70,000. ‘It was a case of biding our time and waiting for the right opportunity,’ he said.’
‘McKinzie said he is hoping to prod banks into taking care of the properties and preventing any further damage to his own property’s value. ‘When the market does turn around, this is going to sell for $20,000 less than it would have,’ he said. ‘And that becomes a comparable sale for my house. That’s going to take me another year to recoup that equity.’
‘Investors were promised their money would be multiplied by as much as 50 percent within in a month. ‘It seems like a harsh sentence for one person,’ Brown said of the sentence, adding Standefor had no criminal record. ‘It’s a tough time to be accused of a financial crime right now.’
‘Valerie Castellana, a former president of the Marin Association of Realtors, said she recently closed two sales in San Rafael. But, she said, ‘the buyers are driving very hard bargains these days. They expect to get deals. Sellers are having to determine if they’re in a place where they can go along with that or do they need to hold on and wait for the market to return.’
‘The builders are in a holding pattern, staying alive until the market recovers,’ DataQuick President John Walsh said’
And this lady takes the cake:
‘The Vicentes just slashed their asking price to $379,000, a 42 percent reduction from their original asking price. For the Vicentes, the substantial price drops gave them the ability to buy a second house in California, without being forced to wait until they sold their Simi Valley home. They decided on Riverside County because they were able to buy a 3,500-square-foot house — twice the size of their current home — for $300,000.’
‘She said she is hoping that the market will stabilize within the next five years so her family can move to Texas.’
Why not just rent? These people are obviously gambling, still trying to make close to 80 grand (!!) and roll up a profit on yet another house so they can ‘move to Texas’!
And for the policy makes out there, explain what is so bad about this:
‘“The typical monthly mortgage payment was $1,239 last month, compared with $1,380 in November and $2,060 in December 2007. Adjusted for inflation, current payments were 44 percent below those made in the spring of 1989, the peak of the prior real estate crisis. They were 54 percent below the current cycle’s peak in July 2007.’
Massive speculation, no matter if we’re talking houses, commodities, stocks, or otherwise, has delivered very poor results for the average person. Capitalism run amok.
Enabled by massive leverage. Let the lenders fail. It was their reckless policies that led to this disaster
The same thing is happening in the stock market. Buy low so that you can sell high in a few weeks to a year…isn’t that the definition of a sucker’s rally? How many have been burned by buying oil futures, Euros or PMs? At some point something is going to break out, but not before there is a lot more pain…and not likely before the housing bubble deflates.
The only bottom I see is when monthly rents approximate monthly mortgage payments in a given market. That’s not happening anytime soon in most of the country.
I don’t think many have been burned by buying gold.
That’s going to take me another year to recoup that equity.’
Hahahahahahahahaha…thats funny.
He acts like the equity is something he earns and deserves. If he would have bought and sold in a timely manner, then one may argue that he “deserved” the profit. But he didn’t, so WTF?
Skip,
In more ways than one. After reading the articles my reaction was very similar to Ben’s. All these CA’s with an expectation of home appreciation as if it was a birthright.
Does that attitude exist any where else in this country? Per…haps, but never to the degree as we seem to witness in Cali.
Oh come on. It’s across the country DinOr. Take a look in Portland, Seattle, Bend, Vancouver, Boise, Denver, Austin, Dallas, etc…
SanFranciscoBayAreaGal,
Fair enough, I can’t argue that ‘too’ vigorously, but I’ll still maintain that CA is where it took root. And I’m talkin’ going all the way back to the 70’s.
I’m right outside of Portland and up until about a decade ago the idea in OR was to acquire LAND ( not McMansions? ) Oh… and having it paid off some day!
“I’m right outside of Portland and up until about a decade ago the idea in OR was to acquire LAND”
That is a relatively new phenomena in the northeast. Land has always been something you dump as a means to shed the tax burden. All of a sudden, beginning in 2002 or so, born and bred dopes from metro areas came out of the woodwork laying down 10X or higher for untillable dirt that you could barely get a few hundred an acre just a few years prior. The reasons were laughable but nearly all of them revolved around some fantasy retirement plans or Trump like delusions of development grandeur. Now that taxes have double because of the speculation, the slow painful multi year extortion begins for these dummies.
“They expect to get deals.”
How dare they expect a “deal”!
One person’s “deal” is another person’s falling knife.
Well yeah, and what person goes into a market place with money to spend thinking “It doesn’t really matter whether or not “I” get a value for my hard earned dollars, I just want to make someone ELSE’S dream come true!”
Funny, I can’t ever recall hearing anyone say that? But after a decade long wind at their backs, it’s what REIC members have come to expect.
(OT) I was sur…prised at how well they were payin’ the full-timers down there! When I first contemplated working at the old 939th Air Rescue Wing back in the early 90’s “top paid” tech’s were -lucky- to be making $15 an hour. Many made $12. Lots of these guys had college degrees. HUGE… waiting list just to get considered for an opening! Without divulging anything about our manning levels, let’s just say there are plenty of openings.
Sorry but IMO there is nothing inherently wrong with speculation. It is a natural component of a proper free market system. Speculation normally works both ways - you have one group of people speculating that prices will go up, and a balancing group of people speculating that prices will go down.
What’s wrong is when:
- Government (or pseudo-government - e.g. the Fed) policy causes an imbalance in the market, artificially driving prices one way or another, thus improperly rewarding one set of speculators by changing the risk formula and forcing this change on everyone.
- The results of speculation (either bad or good) are softened by things like bailouts. This encourages ever-riskier speculation by removing a portion (or all) of the resulting pain or gain - one has to take more risks to get the same gain (e.g. after taxes), and is willing to take more risks since any losses are minimized.
I never said speculation was good or bad. But I have pointed out that widespread speculation is a sign of weakness in the housing market. I said this in 2005, when the REIC/media was going on about how marvelous it was that people were buying multiple houses, flipping condos pre-construction, etc. The thing about this group is, when it becomes apparent that they won’t be rewarded, they head for the exits.
What is relevant to us today is how many are still speculating in this market. IMO, many will likely see no emerging profit, eventually and walk away. The key is motive. If what they are truely in it for is gain, their future actions aren’t going to be the same as ‘end-users.’
That was a mixed bag in the article. One group was speculating. The other had properties with positive cash flow. I think Sacremento (and other areas like that) correct faster because of all the new home development. New homes get priced to sell faster and developers change the mix a lot faster.
The people moving to riverside will probably get burned as the Ventura property will sit for a long time. Then the Riverside property will fall even more or any rise will not offset the cost of sales for quite a few years. Just like the olde days.
There is a lot of interesting data in the market right now.
According to NAR data, price/income ratios for overall markets are very close to the norms of the 90s/80s. That would indicate we are near the bottom in pricing.
I would think we are closer but argue there are several things with the potential to cause an undershoot.
1. a substantial overhang of inventory that will crush prices till its worked off.
2. large amount of the potential buyers now have badly damaged credit
3. large amount of the potential buyers are unemployed
4. Incomes were inflated in the bubble along with everything else and are in the process of deflation
5. Banks will have impaired credit for a while
6. rates are at an all time low, hence prices may be pushed down again
Looking at themessthatgreenspanmade website for the graphs. There seem to be several plateaus in the graphs. Would like to see where we are at from a case shiller graph over a longer period. The old graph went till the 1800s. Could be long term deflation soon.
Everyone should remember that a large number of REO are not on the market yet and in areas like riverside, banks are overwhelmed. So, more than half the existing forclosures are not on the market yet and not all the option arm recasts have occured. Given the current pace, I’d say we have another two years or real price drops.
Also for us suckers in Cali, the deflation will take a bit longer. Jobs are leaving the state. ex. See intel getting out of Silicon Valley. People are going to see very inexpensive options in places like Michigan, Ohio, Indiana exc and so will companies. Expecting the outmigration to speed up as people see the low prices already happening and as the price situation gets them booted from their houses.
“…many will likely see no emerging profit, eventually and walk away.”
This sounds like a major incentive for the Fed to kick housing inflation back up into the air. You may be right their effort will be futile, though…
Well put, packman.
If it hadn’t been for:
–20+ years of government hyping real estate and lavishing every tax break known to man upon it
–Greenspan’s 1% (+ shilling option-ARMs at the peak)
–the GSEs being allowed to grow to enormous proportions
–the explosion in unregulated derivatives
–government abdicating its traditional responsibility as “regulatory watchdog”, and instead moving into the henhouse with the foxes.
The bubble might have popped long ago –before it killed the entire banking system.
“Sorry but IMO there is nothing inherently wrong with speculation.”
Correct, but the problem came when the general assumption became rooted that speculation meant prices went only one way: up. Then when the speculation doesn’t work out and the price goes down, they think they’ve been victimized and deserve a bailout.
“The builders are in a holding pattern, staying alive until the market recovers.”
They’ll survive…if they have Zero in fixed overhead costs.
My experience is that there are still a lot of clueless people out there who have zero interest in the economy or housing. In the Bay Area, they realize that there’s a downturn with ’some layoffs’, but there’s no talk around me about cheaper housing. Denial is still running very deep here in Silicon Valley. If I mention it, then I’m doom and gloom.
A downturn happens to everyone else but them. As long as they are doing OK, then alls right with the world.
“‘I work hard to keep my property looking nice,’ he said. ‘But now, when people come over, instead of saying, ‘You have a nice home,’ the first thing they say is, ‘What’s going on next door?’”
This problem appears mindlessly simple for the local government to solve: They pass a law which requires the owner of the property to either properly maintain it themselves or pay the local government a fine sufficient to cover the cost of property maintenance. Failure to comply would result in forfeiture of the property to the local government.
It could also provide some revenue for cash strapped governments. I like it.
It could also provide employment. Even landscaping is better than nothing.
A lot of cash strapped governments don’t have the cash to even get the program started.
Detroit tried these games, it just drove property prices even lower (i.e. couldn’t give them away). They ended up bulldozing a bunch of houses at govt expense for a net negative return for the city.
It’s not like banks are sitting on piles of cash - they were counting on the interest on the loan to make things work - even just getting the principal back would leave them in the hole.
It’s even worse than governments not having the cash to get started. Typically, local governments around here (DFW) put liens for years worth on work on unmaintained properties before they get paid back. Until recently, investors might have paid off a big lien if they could get mineral rights (and then never mow it themselves, thus restarting the process), but due to the recent drop in natural gas prices, that sort of activity doesn’t make much sense.
That’s how Oregon’s state forests came into being. During the Depression and the series of Tillamook fires, the land reverted back to the counties for taxes, and are administered for their benefit by the Department of Forestry.
Do you really wanna go there?
…Indeed, one of the earliest sparks of the colonial rebellion was kindled by the forfeiture of John Hancock’s schooner Liberty for failure to pay unpopular customs duties on its cargo of Madeira wine. Boston attorney John Adams defended Hancock in that case…
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179.html
Joey:
The owners of these houses are mostly banks, and the taxes are not unpopular, so there’s a big difference. The Republican threat of a popular revolt over every little tax does not acknowledge the antithesis: A popular revolt over every little failure of the authorities to help when the community needs/wants something.
Who has ever threatened to revolt over any taxes? I’d like to know where you’re getting your information from
My response was to joeyinCalif, who, like many Republicans with which I have spoken, threatens to revolt over any taxes.
Taxes? If you’d bothered to hit the link you’d see the article was about American Forfeiture Law, not taxation.
And surely you’re not implying that I ever “threatened to revolt over any taxes”. If so you’re mistaken.
I chose the quote only to illustrate that problems with forfeiture trace back to the beginnings.
The country was founded on certain principles. A core principle was to make and keep the government small, with a narrowly defined set of powers that allow it serve us and to do our bidding, but no more than that.
There are plenty of reasons why the notion of us bestowing on government even more power to take our stuff away should be obnoxious to all of us, especially to you liberals…
Sure, BO got elected and government has never been more trustworthy and diversified and fair and just and sweet smelling and loving.. but things change.. so please keep your wits about you.
“There are plenty of reasons why the notion of us bestowing on government even more power to take our stuff away should be obnoxious to all of us, especially to you liberals…”
Joey, what bank do you work for? All I was suggesting was that absentee landlords (such as banks) be required to properly maintain (or pay to properly maintain) the value of their properties in order to avoid dragging down the value of entire neighborhoods due to brown lawns and mosquito-breeding swimming pools with green water. What that has to do with taking away stuff is a puzzlement.
well.. suppose we all have to “properly maintain” our property to avoid dragging down the value of the neighborhood. What does that mean exactly?
If your home needs a paintjob, should you be forced to do it under threat of forefeiture?
If your home is small and old and your neighborhood is newer and larger, is it not dragging down the value of the neighborhood? Should you be forced to upgrade?
Wait a minute! Those examples are outrageous. They not what the law intended!
Tough titties.. Add it to the list of all the laws we’ve passed that were subsequently extended way beyond our original intentions.
..another thing.. this economic downturn is temporary. The law will remain forever. It’s a potentially huge moneymaker who’s only beneficiary is government.
Why not let the market sort itself out and keep govt out of it to the extent we can? No offense meant, but the suggestion that we pass new forefeiture laws to protect some neighbor’s phantom-equity is beyond the pale.. ’specially for an HBBer.
you’ve got a point, but an unmaintained pool is a public health hazard and at some point, something’s got to give.
why are we spending thousands so city employees can drain your pool?
why are we spending thousands to clear sidewalks when you could give $10 to some kid to do it, if not clear it yourself? seriously.
why should police be called 50 times because you won’t do anything to keep squatters/crackheads off your property?
I don’t like building covenants and curbside nazis any more than you do, but at some point negligence starts costing all of us.
Passing another law is not “doing something”. Passing another law is how governments give us the false impression that they are doing something.
If all the laws already on the books were enforced, would any of the problems you mentioned go unpunished?
I won’t suggest neighbors pay people to clean the yard and pool, and pay the kid $10 to plow the walkway… because there’s no doubt several laws against it and they’ll probably get sued!
So the solution is we need another law.. ok
But that would go against the TARP plan, so it won’t be allowed. We are all supposed to be pitching in to help the banksters, remember? ‘Cause we’re all in this “together”.
“Bitter Former Owners”
Sweet schaudenfreude!
“Dude, stop talking like a BFO. Just grab your TV and make the Sheriffs life easy.”
LMFAO
“It’s been a tough road, and not just for sellers, Vicente said. As buyers, she and her husband were surprised to see severely damaged homes with kitchens and tubs torn out by bitter former owners.She said she is hoping that the market will stabilize within the next five years so her family can move to Texas.”
I alluded to this earlier in a post to the bits bucket, but who wants to buy a foreclosure home that has been vandalized by bitter former owners? And I thought it was supposed to be priced out renters who were bitter, not wealthy home owners.
Maybe someone living in soon to be foreclosed house with all the plumbing and appliances still intact that has a pickup truck?
Better to rent several more years until the prices drop so low and all the foreclosed houses are so gutted that they get bulldozed over. Turn the lots into parks or gardens.
BFOs are part of the problem. if BO gets us to subsidize the loans for people who didn’t earn the areas where they live, they will turn into ghettos in the long run anyway.
Rent forever!
“For the Vicentes, the substantial price drops gave them the ability to buy a second house in California, without being forced to wait until they sold their Simi Valley home.”
They are ASSuming that their newly-priced property will now sell, and so have bought house #2 before selling house #1. After all they have been through already. O-kay…
They are ASSuming that their newly-priced property will now sell, and so have bought house #2 before selling house #1.
Can you say “Moral Hazard”?
More than that guys, it’s at the very core of what created the bubble. Phantom demand from flippers too eager to move on to their next big score, or get a better home before their FICO was compromised.
Either way, cr@ppy behavior.
Not just cr@ppy behavior, I would call it plain stupidity.
The only thing left for them to do now is to foreclose on home #1.
“‘In a period of a couple months, the banks started selling properties at prices that would allow an investor to come in and make in excess of 10 percent per year,’ he said.”
Thanks, but I’ll pass. My profit margin’s a lot better than 10 percent a year, and I do it without having to fix the messes that tenants make.
Can’t recall what your business is, Slim. Care to share the info?
Of course I don’t for one second believe current RE prices allow a buyer to make > 10% per year.
Here’s the info, AZ!
Here’s the info, AZ!
Did you really have to do that?
Looking at the bike swap meet blog entry took the Tucson-homesickness to a new level!
I’m a graphic designer and photographer. In my part of the business world, the secret to success is to keep the costs down and the business promotion level high.
How about 40%?
“in a market where average prices have already fallen by more than 35 percent, McKinzie said he is hoping to prod banks into taking care of the properties and preventing any further damage to his own property’s value. ‘When the market does turn around, this is going to sell for $20,000 less than it would have,’ he said. ‘And that becomes a comparable sale for my house. That’s going to take me another year to recoup that equity.’”
I find it comical that this guy has no idea what type of real estate depression he’s in…A loss of $20,000 is the least of his worries. I wonder when this guy will get a clue…2010, 2012?
I think he meant that the distressed/fixer home home next to his would sell for @20,000 less due to the dead lawn etc. I don’t believe he thought his home only lost @20,000 in value since the bubble burst.
Deputy Federal Public Defender Charles Brown said he hoped the judge would sentence his client to five or six years in prison. ‘It seems like a harsh sentence for one person,’ Brown said of the sentence, adding Standefor had no criminal record. ‘It’s a tough time to be accused of a financial crime right now.’”
Crikey…this woman defrauded people of MILLIONS. I’m sure more than a few of their entire life savings. 5 or 6 years in prison would be a slap on the wrist!
It’s interesting to see the worst predators go after their own ethnic groups. This woman went after African Americans, Madoff went after Jews mostly, and IIRC the woman who sold the $700K home to the strawberry picker was Hispanic. Goes to show that you really can’t trust anybody…
It’s called “affinity fraud.” Close-knit ethnic or religious groups are particularly susceptible to being scammed by “one of their own.”
‘It’s a tough time to be accused of a financial crime right now.’”
If she’s being sentenced, then we’re past accusing! And she PLEAD GUILTY! There’s not much room for doubt here. This quote cracks me up!
Jail hell, I’m for chopping off hands.
Ooops!…missed again, there goes ANOTHER head
What this goes to show is that people don’t gain anything by discriminating. If you go with a particular broker or whatever just because that person is of your own type, then you are a discriminator and you deserve to be let down.
or, to invert that, if you indiscriminately discriminate in favor of your own ethnic/religious group … you belong to a class known as “fool”
prejudice is another word for “lacks judgment”
racial discrimination = can’t discriminate between merit and its lack
this is fun.
nonsense.
“shadow market rentals”
What?
They don’t exist?
I think they’re implying that these are houses and apartments (that were formerly condos) that aren’t being leased via property management companies.
sadly for the prop mgt co’s, these “shadow rentals” are the Margin that sets the Market
expect to see a lot of the fat wrung out of “professional management” in coming years
expect to see families doing all the work maintaining their own rental properties … or they will lose the prop. to someone who does
“When the market does turn around, this is going to sell for $20,000 less than it would have,” he said. “And that becomes a comparable sale for my house. That’s going to take me another year to recoup that equity.”
People are truly freakin’ nuts, IMO.
LMAO
Oh, merciful heavens, please take it away*
I feel so dreadful. (whimper)
Anyway, I thought I may as well apologize for my late afternoon post yesterday on the 20th where I proclaimed that everyone posting on the threads for the day was clearly a self-selecting bunch of grumps, and I said I was gonna’ have an ‘Obama Is President Party’ in grand style, and I invited you sore losers—you know who you are— to see me later, as I sat regretting my celebrations, in case that cheered you up. That’s what I said.
Well. Here is that day. And only one short day later. Fancy that! Hahahahaah!
Look, to my mind January 20th was a great day. A day when a man of merit, a man without a rich and well-connected family, a man who succeeded only on will and ability, sure, along with luck, but mostly will and ability, somehow became the President of the United States. This is what America is all about! ‘We hold this truth to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…’
Huh huh huh? Not just words anymore, baybee!
However, I was devisive, mocking, snarky and taunting yesterday, and I’m sorry. That is not my style. Well,it IS my style, but not on the HBB. Well, not that much, anyway.**
Look, so my point is, I hope we here on the HBB can all continue to hold our own opinions, with a minimum of mutual and constructive cruelty, and all work together towards a bright good future, where idjits are punished, and we all have lots of fun. That’s my hope.
Meanwhile, all of you talk softly, because my head hurts.
(Also, and I point this out lightly, in passing, that the Best Man Won! Hahahahah!) **
* My head, or my brain, or else the whole world. Take your pick! Only hurry it up!
** Ahhhhh, be quiet.
***Ooops. Sorry. Sorry, again. I’ll try to do better.
I thought your post yesterday was just fine. The bitterness was overboard, IMO.
‘I thought your post yesterday was just fine.’
Thank you, Big V.
I will never make fun of your duck again.*
* I mean, you know—not more than any duck deserves.
Hahaha!
From bits today:
-
Comment by Muir
2009-01-21 10:20:04
“Oly??!!!!!
Where are you?
How’s your head?
Casualties?
Loved your post yesterday.
May I reprint it?
We could of course keep it special, you posted so late that only myself and a select lucky few read it.
Oly? WAKE UP!
(move slowly)”
I missed your post, Muir, and this is because my head really did and does hurt. (It wasn’t the spirits—I think it was the ‘hitting it on the tree’ part, on the way down.
But I digress. And anyway, all’s well that ends well, right? (whimper) I’m sure you’d know.’
So, let me answer numerically, but sedately, and absoloutely without noise:
1. I’m here.
2. Doin’ poorly, although the prospects are looking up.
3. I haven’t gone out to check. Every ‘meat’ person came back inside, and mostly complete. Are you only counting meat persons as casualties?
4. What was that again? What did I say? I seem to recall being spirited and bitter?
5. You betcha! I’d be honored! No, really!
6. Only the best…
Oh, and how’s your toe? I hope good.
More later.
‘Comment by Muir’
2009-01-21 10:20:04
“Oly??!!!!!
Where are you?
How’s your head?
Casualties?
Loved your post yesterday.
May I reprint it?
We could of course keep it special, you posted so late that only myself and a select lucky few read it.
Oly? WAKE UP!
(move slowly)”
“I think it was the ‘hitting it on the tree’ part, on the way down.”
Ouch! Olygal, you weren’t hanging by your heels in the tree again, were you???
Hope you feel better soon…
Thank you.
I mean it.
And thanks for typing quietly.
Wait…how could I hang by my heels? Do you mean when I bend my feet over? The toe parts is what grasps.
Okay, tell me right now—are you a ‘parkour’?
Olygal,
Don’t take this the wrong way but if I had George Soros’ funding ( I’d ditch my rich and well connected family off at the bus stop )
Secondly, and I can’t believe more people haven’t identified this because it was so obvious, but if you’ve watched Entertainment Revenues over the last several years, they have absolutely sucked! A few summers ago “March of the Penguins” was the best selling movie of the summer. Album/CD sales have been in the tank and Reality TV had basically taken over!
With the way we gravitated toward trash/reality TV and the instant drama of uneducated people slamming each other in public, an establsihed celebrity saying in a calm and composed voice “I oppose the war” would have easily been trampled in all the “noise”.
So what’s a celeb to do!? They were forced to escalate their game. E-v-e-r-y-o-n-e got onboard with it. They were literally elbowing one another out of the way to make sure they were being viewed as “willing to make a complete @$$ of themselves” if that’s what it meant to stay in the limelight. Sometimes it back fired ( like Rosie O’ ) but usually it paid off. That’s why they kept hammering on it. The “Cult of Personality” is born.
Okay, are you actually going to think I will and can decipher big words in MY state?!
Look, I will cut and paste your thoughts and respond to you later, and meanwhile, Mr. Man, I think you should have celebrated more. Then I could make fun of YOU.
Oh, also, I want to ask: is it really super foggy down where you are? Because it is amazing foggy where I am. This is the thickest, quietest fog I have ever seen.
“This is the thickest, quietest fog I have ever seen.”
It’s been some of the thickest, weirdest fog I’ve ever seen up here in Seattle as well. Freezing fog, too, near my workplace (a bit higher above sea-level)–beautiful on the trees/bushes/grasses, but treacherous on the sidewalks…
1. You walk to work? I think that’s great. I would, but it would take me about 29 hours one way. Depending upon what I saw and got excited about, along the way.
2. I hate sidewalks. I never have trusted them. NEVER.
Maybe that’s because I growed up in the wilderness and man-made stepping-stuff was always suspect. Mines, and stuff…
So, maybe it’s the sidewalks, and not the fog, here!
I’m just suggesting this, as an option. I would never criticize your sidewalk activity. *
3. Tell me how pretty the treacherous fog is!
*Within, you know; freakin’ reason.
Olygal,
LOL! Yeah, sad but true. There have already been a flurry of articles about “Whatever shall late-nite comedians do!?” The Onion has done a schtick on the BDS Industry along with just about everybody else.
I think it showed ( me anyway ) that the “entertainment” industry was more desperate for -revenue- than GWB was for approval ratings.
Wait a minute, DinOr, did you actually disrespect ‘March of the Penguins’? I cannot believe that!
I just…I mean…did you not see how utterly sucky penguins have it? Pay attention, man! A zillion times worse than anyone else!
Frankly, I thought you were right on target. Keep on celebrating Olygal, just do it quietly.
‘Keep on celebrating Olygal, just do it quietly.’
You was always a smart one. That’s what I knowed about you.
Say, how are you at climbing trees?
Love climbing trees. In my younger days I could out climb my brother. Many a time I would have to climb trees to rescue my brother and sisters.
Are you sure we’re not long lost sisters?
Tell me ’bout your tree-climbin’ brother, SFgal! Then tell me ’bout your tree-climbing sisters! How many brothers you got? See, I thought you only had sisters.
Welllllllll, that’s okay. Those brothers. They sneak up on yer.
I have to say. I am the oldest in my clan, and I was always the fastest climbingest in any situation, as far as trees. I have two (2) brothers, both of them’s gigantic louts that would never last in a tree nowadays. Thye’d bust it.
And also I have five (5) sisters who could or could not last in a tree nowadays, depending on how good they concentrated.
Lately, since Christmas, I just feel like, very dismissive in general. None of them could stay up even in a little apple tree, and that was after a challenge.
We had a big grand Obama is President Party, even had a few mellower GOP included. keep up your good work.
While I’m happy that a guy that worked his way up got elected.
I fear for my country and what this dude is capable of.
Seems off to a good start. Glad he signed the credit card holders bill of rights. That is a good thing to start with.
Not thrilled with the continuing big bank giveaway.
Seems it will be a mixed bag.
Still hopeful they pick up on my idea of mining the border to mexico. And canada too.
@BigV, didn’t see any jobs from my company up in the valley. We could probably use someone down in LA, but other than my group which is hiring, there will probably be layoffs. May be forced to pick up internal people that aren’t the best fit. I am sorry couldn’t find something.
Probably a good number of positions in LM up your way. its not Seagate but they have a bunch of good aerospace contracts.
Either you weren’t really that offensive, or I missed it, but hey, if you wanna buy me a beer someday to call it even, works for me.
isn’t luck sometimes defined as when preparedness meets opportunity??? Like him or not, Obama was prepared when the opportunity arose.
“In my experience there’s no such thing as luck.”
Obi-wan Kenobi
“The space was important, Vicente said, since her son and daughter-in-law and their two children have moved in with them. ”Getting more house for your dollar is more important because grandchildren and kids are moving back home they can no longer afford to live on their own,’ she said.”
Hardly surprising that these greedhead fools, who spent the last sixteen months chasing the market down - and were doubtless among the “we’re not giving it away” sellers quoted so often as the market turned - imparted their own “values” and lack of smarts to their offspring, who now have lost their own homes and are moving back in with mommy and daddy. One only hopes the grandkids don’t have a congenital stupidity gene.
Last year, the Vicentes told The Star they wouldn’t budge when they lowered their asking price on their five-bedroom house to $495,000. Their outlook has since changed.”
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ROTFLMAO!
Few things are as gratifying to this patient renter than watching the greedhead “we’re not giving it away” sellers of 2006/2007 get schooled by the market.
Chad Boyer, a laid-off newspaper advertising salesman from San Diego, had an even harder time. In November, he called the state’s toll-free number 802 times over a three-week period to check on his claim. He did not get through even once.”
In recent weeks I’ve seen numerous accounts like this, as State unemployment agencies are not staffed, equipped, or funded to deal with the huge spike in the newly jobless. These individuals do not show up in the official, faked unemployment numbers. My guess is that real unemployment has to be at least double what the official statistics are showing.
I saw a similar news report on a fellow here in Seattle who had the same experience: he made hundreds of calls over a several-week period, but had not yet been able to get through and sign up for his unemployment benefits.
I wonder how much this is skewing the official numbers?
Hmmm….figure 5 work days per week (unless he also called on the weekends), that’s 800 times in 15 days, that’s over 50 times a day. Assuming an 8 hour guvmint workday (a stretch, I know), that’s a bit over 6 times an hour for 3 straight weeks. Seems like a bit much…..has he nothing better to do??
I have seen similar accounts, and I believe it is true.
Governments deliberately create unnecessary paperwork, huge queues on the phone, confusing web pages, unhelpful staff. People get so frustrated that they stop applying for their legal benefits. This in turn saves the Government large amounts of money.
Mark McKinzie is fed up with the foreclosures on his block. Last week, he took aim at the banks that own the properties, and said he hopes his neighbors will help.”
Rock on, Mark McKinzie. Imagine the impact if neighborhoods started mobilizing against the banks and flopped flippers who are letting their properties go to seed. Imagine if local governments start enacting ordinances with real teeth - say, fines of $500 a day for each day of non-compliance with reasonable upkeep requirements. That would provide a powerful incentive for banks and “investers” to unload their vacant properties as expeditiously as possible, which means a steeper price capitulation, but also a quicker trip to the bottom and eventual stablization.
HBB brothers and sisters and fellow renters, I challenge all of you to lead or get behind efforts like this.
Sammy,
Even though some of the guy’s comments were dumber than a box of rocks, I hear what you’re saying. In addition, since so many “developers” elected the low road and stiffed their suppliers, I see no problem with local gov’s bulldozing these homes and collecting new Sys. Development Fees during the Next Great Bubble!
More power to ya!
I will be asking for a rent decrease (in Newark, that’s Alameda county), assuming I don’t lose my job too. If we’re both out of work with no prospects on the horizon, then we will move somewhere more affordable, like San Diego or Santa Cruz.
I have a question for some of you:
To my mind, a Libertarian is just a Republican who’s in it for the top-down economic theory, but is not attracted to the moralistic red herrings for which that party is notorious. What say you to this?
I say that’s quite possibly the most simple-minded definition of a Libertarian I’ve ever heard.
I, by the way, do not consider myself an all-the-way libertarian, so those who self-identify as such, feel free to weigh in. I believe in the Republican form of government as originally envisioned and laid down by our Founding Fathers, especially the authors of the Federalist Papers. I believe it is not the role of government to protect people from their own stupidity, or be enablers for parasitic lifestyle choices, or to launch Pax Americana military misadventures to forcibly “go abroad in search of dragons to slay” - something G. Washington explicitly warned us to avoid. I would abolish the IRS, the income tax, and cut or severely downsize most Federal agencies. In short, while the government has a legitimate but limited role to play in protecting the general welfare, I don’t want or need a Nanny State infringing on my God-given rights and liberties [to the extent that I'm not harming anyone else].
What would government do? I can’t think of anything if one is a libertarian, if one aims to be consistent.
Meat inspections? Well, people should be smart enough (i.e., not stupid) to figure out which meat is worth eating. I mean, that’s what the founding fathers did–they hunted and fished and could tell when meat was good or bad.
Air traffic control? “The market” will supply this amenity if the flying public demands it, and airlines will pass the cost of running the ATC on to the public. Yeah, that’ll work. The non-flying public should not subsidize the “risky” behavior of those who want to jet to Cancun, or fly cross-country for a meeting when they could just use the web.
The web? Yeah, government standards of transmission are unnecessary (technical standards, not content standards) so anyone can hook anything up anyway they want if they blow the whole system, The Market will step in an get it fixed because people will pay for that to happen.
Securities and Exchange Commission? If you’re smart enough to have money to invest, you’re smart enough to do the detective work on your own for your investments. Those who don’t have money to invest shouldn’t be subsidizing the risky behavior of others.
Clean water? Those who care about such things will pay The Market for clean water.
And on and on.
What government service can survive a logic of “People who want that should pay for it and those who don’t shouldn’t?”
IAT
Nah, if anything a Libertarian should be pro individual and pro small business and thus espouse the very opposite. Tinkle down economics is for the demipubs and their corporate masters.
No Big V
A Libertarian is someone who thinks drugs should be legalized even though he does not partake.
However the Libertarian would happily sentence anyone involved in an accident while under the influence to 30 years.
Who does not believe abortion is necessarily correct but thinks government has no right to interfere.
Who is not gay and winces at two men kissing but does not oppose gay marriage.
-
That’s how I see a Libertarian.
Those are my views.
From reading the above posts, it seems that:
-SS is an independant who wants to think the way he thinks the forefathers thought.
-EWJ’s Libertarians are not well-enough defined to be a political party.
-Muir’s Libertarians are Democrats.
I’m still confused.
Big V, you seem to be chronically confused about a lot of things. Especially when it comes to characterizing the alleged views of others.
It’s not about “wanting to think the way I think the forefathers thought.” It’s about being having the freedom to live up to my potential and pursue my dreams, without having my productive labors sapped by being forced to subsidize social parasites, repeatedly pay for the damage done by criminals and predators, or mortgage my children’s future to pay for military adventurism or social engineering schemes. It’s about enjoying the God-given freedoms set forth in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Something tells me that you are completely incapable of understanding such concepts, however.
What does any of that have to do with the political parties in place right now? I can’t think of a single party that runs on the platform of “Not having the freedom to live up to one’s potential and pursue one’s dreams, while having one’s productive labors sapped by being forced to subsidize social parasites, repeatedly pay for the damage done by criminals and predators, or mortgage one’s children’s future to pay for military adventurism or social engineering schemes. It’s about not enjoying the God-given freedoms set forth in the Constitution and Bill of Rights”.
So, once again, what is a Libertarian? Is it a fringe group of Republicans or what?
That seemed a bit harsh, Sammy. She’s just asking. Nothing wrong with that.
And clearly will understand and comprehend any halfway decent answers. Her confusion with the answers given so far is understandable. They didn’t help me either.
That’s because the political dialogue in this country is extremely awkward and clumsy. There exists a latent desire to neatly pigeon hole individuals - kinda sad for a nation that supposedly champions individualism.
Google “Cross cutting cleavages” (an old Poly Sci term) What that means is that each and every one us, no matter how much we might deny or resist it, actually agrees with someone (anyone) else on at least one issue. The result is a healthy matrix of overlapping beliefs that should foster the America we really want.
The MSM and PTB seek to upset that balance.
No, No Big V
-
Ok, I’ll try again.
A Libertarian is someone who believes that you have the god given right to sc*ew your own life as you see fit and government should not interfere.
–
However wiki says
“Libertarianism is a term used by a spectrum of political philosophies which seek to promote individual liberty and seek to minimize or even abolish the state.The extent to which government may be necessary may be evaluated on ethical and/or economic grounds. “What it means to be a libertarian in a political sense is a contentious issue, especially among libertarians themselves.”
So, of course, I think you should study my last definition and get to work at it.
Abolishing the state is the end goal of Marxism as well.
Theoretically, marxism is nothing more than a state in which one’s labor does not provide any profit to someone else.
Imo, it’d be more correct to say: Abolishing the capitalist state is the end goal of marxism.
OK, OK, Libertarian isn’t a real political party then, is it? It’s just an excuse you use when you don’t want to admit you’re a Republican.
What does this have to do with the California thread? Love the HBB & have been a long time reader. I had to take a break though the last couple months because of this off topic crap.
I wanna know. I wanna know whether or not a Libertarian is really a type of Republican. That’s all.
I think they can mingle with both Repubs and Dems, depending on the subject matter.
Repubs: limited guvmint. Something else I can’t think of now.
Dems: legal abortions, gay marriage, maybe military withdrawals around the world. Something else I’m sure.
Re: your question, IMHO no, not a “type” of Republican.
Sorry, if that doesn’t help. I’m tired.
Repubs: limited guvmint
Seriously?
Dems: gay marriage
Gay marraige is an interesting issue with regard to libertarianism, interesing in that I think it is a useful tool to demonstrate how libertarians are different than conventional libs or cons. I’ll use myself for an example. I personally am a christian and consider homosexuality to be a sin. I don’t think the church should perform marriages between people of the same sex.
On the other hand, I don’t think govt should prevent two consenting adults in doing…whatever.
The problem with the liberals and conservatives today, is that both parties are statists who want to impose their beliefs. The cons want to implement their anti-gay religion and impose that on every life.
The libs want to impose their “gay is ok” meme.
My feeling is that govt should not be sanctioning marriage at all. It’s a personal decision between you, your partner, your god (or whatever), your family/friends/peers and whomever you choose to include (or exclude). Why do I need a state Governer to “approve” or bless the committment I have made to the lady asleep on the couch right now? Libertarianism neither supports nor rejects homosexuality, it doesn’t address it (socially speaking). Libertarianism defers to property rights, since you own your body you certainly have the right to associate with whomever you choose.
I’ve had gay men in my life who I care about throughout my life including one who I have reconnected with recently. I don’t need anyone preaching at me about how being gay is fine or ok or whatever just like I dont need anyone preaching about how a gay person is an abomination or whatever. Frankly, those opposing retards deserve each other. I’ll build my own relationships thank-you-very-much without govt interference or the interference of any other elitist.
I’ve never met a Libertarian who wasn’t a closet Republican. I’ve never met a Libertarian who used to be a Democrat. Hardly scientific, but I learn from my experiences…
I’ve never met a Libertarian who used to be a Democrat.
Of course you haven’t, you’re a bleeding heart lib. See my post about how liberals think libertarianism is really republicans in desguise and repubs think it’s really liberals in desguise.
FYI, one of my previous economic teachers (Dr. Walter Block) is now an active Austrian (senior fellow at the Mises Institute) and libertarian and describes himself in his younger days as being a “pinko commie type”.
state shouldn’t sanction marriage…
okay, so take away civil marriage for everybody. of course, a whole new body of law will arise for people who want to pass on property, see their loved ones in the hospital, retain custody of children or pay child support, own property in common, etc…
look, it’s not about the state giving me its “blessing”. I couldn’t care less. It’s about seeking the full remedy of the law to protect me and my family. Bottom line.
Here are a couple of ways its connected, for those who like to compartmentalize when we all know “all real estate is not local”.
1)California has a government. A discussion of libertarianism is about how to organize (or whether to dismantle) a government.
2)The California thread concerns developments in the housing bubble/crash. Governments are trying to respond to that phenomenon. Discussing what governments might or might not do directly connects to how one sees government and, indeed, how government officials see government. Libertarianism is a way of seeing government, so it is connected.
3)Many readers of the California thread live in California and thus may vote in California. Thinking about how specific policies do or do not connect to allegedly coherent political perspectives can help California thread readers who can vote in California to think about how their support for various political actors may or may not affect the great unwinding.
And so forth and so on.
IAT
That statement is so dense, it bends light.
Seems to me, just from what I’ve read, a Libertarian is someone who wants to legalize and/or permit just about everything……drugs, prostitution, and other stuff I can’t think of at the moment all in the name of true “freedom” to do as one wants. Also, isolationists who want to withdraw from all military outposts worldwide and eliminate most of the rest of the guvmint Octopus too.
I’ve never seen it as mainly an economic thing. No expert here though by any means.
the top-down economic theory
I think that’s very inconsistant from what I understand libertarianism to be about, and I should perhaps add for purposes of full disclosure I consider myself a fairly “hardcore” libertarian.
Most basic principle (and most important I think) is one of strong private property rights. Everything else derives from that. Simple things (”simple” in the sense we all pretty much agree on these issues) regarding stuff like murder, rape, assault, etc in the libertarian theory derive from the principle of private property (your body). But that right to total ownership of private property also extends to “less important” things with the same sense of importance, like televisions, money, etc.
Libertarian theory goes on to discuss why this is important and why people who own property are most capable of ensuring those scarce resources are effectively distributed.
I’m not aware of any commonly accepted libertarian theory that determines one must first create “rich people” before anyone else can be successful (which is what I assume you mean by “top down economic theory”). Libertarianism doesn’t make any claims that I’m aware of regarding the optimal distribution of resources.
I wanna know. I wanna know whether or not a Libertarian is really a type of Republican. That’s all.
Dems make that claim. Repubs accuse libertarians as being “liberal” or closet democrats. Really, both parties/groups tend to be statists and the one thing that statists really hate aside from statists who want to paint the room another color, is folks who reject statism all together. So when such a person comes along, each side accuses that person of being part of the “enemy” group (dems->repubs and repubs->dems) since that’s they only way most of these folks are capable of understanding the universe. Everyone is either red or blue.
One doesn’t have to be libertarian to think the state should not be in the business of determining who can and cannot marry. All one need be is a secularist.
I am a secularist. Though I have religious beliefs, I support the separation of church and state, and I support the separation of church and state because of the danger of blessing the unity of these two forms of institutional power.
I agree that the U.S. political spectrum is narrow and a fun-house spectrum, where left is often right, right is often down, and good common sense is often nowhere to be found.
IAT
“The space was important, Vicente said, since her son and daughter-in-law and their two children have moved in with them. ”Getting more house for your dollar is more important because grandchildren and kids are moving back home they can no longer afford to live on their own,’ she said.”
Well at least the kids have a home to move into. Could be out on the street as many folks are and will be. So they should be grateful what they have. Good luck on selling the other over priced house.
Textbook buy & bail play
bottomfisherman,
Ah!!! But the “West Coast Version” had to be a little mo’ slick cuzz the lenders are already hip to the East Coast spin.
Early on as FL was falling apart the Buy & Bail crowd had to at least feign interest in legitimately selling their former home! In MSM interviews they would claim to be having all kinds of Open Houses etc. ( but had long since quit making payments! )
Out here you had to keep current or you’d be found out!
That’s what I thought - they’ve probably already quit making payments on the old place. Come get the keys Mr. Banker.
“The space was important, Vicente said, since her son and daughter-in-law and their two children have moved in with them. ”Getting more house for your dollar is more important because grandchildren and kids are moving back home they can no longer afford to live on their own,’ she said.”
Demand destruction in action.
She said she is hoping that the market will stabilize within the next five years so her family can move to Texas.”
They are waiting 5 years because Texas is more expensive than SoCal! WTF?
For some reason, the idiots think “Stabalize” means return to peak prices.
In our local paper I see stories about “signs of market recovery”, and I can tell that what the Realtor quoted in the artilce thinks is a recovery, is NOT what the house owners that make comments about the story think of as a recovery.
Something like:
“Prices plunged 40% YoY, but sales incresed 12%”, said Realtor Gready Stupidho. “This shows the market is clearly beginning to recover.”
By this, the Realtor means she finally got a comission check after 6 months with nada, and has a few more suckers lining up to hand her money.
The responses from the readers usually go something like this, “Recovery? My house is off $20K in the last month, and $200K in the last year, and she calls this a recovery? Yeah, my house will be back to the price I paid for it in 2006, within a couple months… NOT!!!!”
They just don’t get it that Realtors mean “stabalize” and “recovery” for THEM, not YOU!
These folks are massive speculators: they want to move to Texas, but just bought a house in SoCal instead. As if buying a house for the short-term has ever been a good idea, except during a bubble. The rule of thumb used to be 3-years minimum window just to cover purchase/closing costs., so I would expect no profit and only risk by planning to sell in the 5-year timeframe.
Dumb*sses.
Oh, boy, this just out. A listing on Redfin in the 90024 for 999K. All the comps are listing for 1.3 or more. It looks like these people have owned the house for a long time, so they can afford to drop the price to where it looks (for now) like a real bargain. Imagine what’s going to happen to the comps if this house goes for asking. There goes the neighborhood….
http://www.redfin.com/CA/LOS-ANGELES/10470-HOLMAN-Ave-90024/home/6805787
What a dump. Not an upgrade in sight and asking $400+/foot in a marginal neighborhood.
You call this a bargain? I call it $300K overpriced.
Actually, after reading the ad, I’d say it’s more like $600K overpriced.
Yeah, that’s a real peach for a cool million. Apparently, folks in LA are still hitting the pipe pretty hard.
I’m waiting for these sellers to show up on a future episode of “Intervention”.
Hitting the pipe hard is right, still asking a million for a place that they can’t even show one picture of the inside. The pool is nice though, even if the house itself on the outside is unappealing to say the least. Yes there are still nuts in the land of fruits and nuts
Sammy, not a bargain by any stretch of the imagination, just a new bearish comp. We all now prices don’t return to norm in a month, but they have to start somewhere and this is where I’m seeing it start.
There is a bidding war going on for that house as we speak (14 bids according to an unreliable realtor). The thing is, I checked with the assessor, 1,800 sqft houses in this very area sold for 1.5 million 3 or four months ago. The owners have countered offers to get to 1.2 million. Even if they do sell it (and they might, to knifecatchers), all the houses around it will almost automatically loose about 200K in value. As for me, I’m still not buying….
Very True. It doesn’t matter what you think that house is worth. The fact is, I rent in 90024, and the lowest piece of junk here is over a million. These are not marginal neighborhoods, either. They are good neighborhoods with great weather, great access to freeways, excellent public schools, and are close to the beach.
Are they ultimately worth this much? Nah, I think they’ll drop considerably. But a house selling for under a million here is currently the new low. And if you’re looking to avoid a two-hour commute to work at your $300,000 job in Century City or Santa Monica, and you would like to avoid $15,000 a year for private school for each kid, it might just be worth it. Especially for those who made a ton in the huge run-up in prices, and are simply transferring equity/loss from one to the other.
Priced right, even if overpriced when you look long-term, will still sell.
“The typical monthly mortgage payment was $1,239 last month, compared with $1,380 in November and $2,060 in December 2007. Adjusted for inflation, current payments were 44 percent below those made in the spring of 1989, the peak of the prior real estate crisis. They were 54 percent below the current cycle’s peak in July 2007.”
Did someone say in July 2007 that it was a great time to buy? Imagine what a life-changer that is — housing, the number one item in most family budgets, costing double, or half.
NPR just quoted GM COO Fritz Henderson as saying that GM is counting on Government policy/stimulus package to stablize house prices.
In other words, GM wants you to overpay for a house or pay too much in property taxes so others can borrow more money and get cars they don’t need. And they want the Government to price-fix these houses.
The california premium is way to high a price to pay for a home. i live in the easten san fernando valley where a decent 1500 sg ft home is still above 550k.i have just spent the week in louisville kentucky and beautiful homes on acerage are available for under 200k…its a real nice city too….a lot less hassles than los angeles…why not pay less for a home……..louisville here i come……..
Dividing my time between the South Bay and Phoenix, I’m always astonished to see the shabby homes in the South Bay selling for four or five times the same shabbiness in Phoenix. I saw a site listing the average annual income in areas in the South Bay and in parts of Phoenix. Phoenix incomes to house price ratio is far higher than in the South Bay. It’s far better to rent in the South Bay.
Y’all enjoy yo new life in Louvul, then…
Prices in the central Valley have come down quite a lot in the last year - from the low-500’s/high 400’s to low 400’s/high 300’s. Most of the houses on my Lake Balboa street are somewhere between $425K - $300K depending on size and condition - and that’s according to Zillow, infamous for overvaluing things here in SoCal.
I get a daily dose of schadenfreude just looking out of my kitchen window: the nice 3b/2b with a pool across the road is still being shown, over a year after it was vacated.
The nice renters who used to live there offered $420K for it, when the owners went into foreclosure - which they promptly refused as being too low. (The renters upped and moved into a house two streets down, with the same floorplan and pool, for $360K…)
After about 8 months of absolutley no activity, the bank dropped the price to $350K, and a look on ZipRealty shows the asking price has dropped to $330K in the last couple of weeks.
Still, I get great enjoyment in seeing the prospective buyers take a tour at the weekend, only to see another set take the tour the weekend after. Lather, rinse, repeat over the last 17 months…
Bet the owners are kicking themselves for not taking that sweet $420K offer now….
Real estate is long past due for ethical realtor ratings because the industry, like most, doesn’t oversee itself.
People burned in real estate should have a public complaint process to register those complaints, and to warn others to avoid realty scams, and unethical reators who behave much like Congress who doesn’t give a damn.