January 23, 2009

Bits Bucket For January 23, 2009

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493 Comments »

Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-23 06:28:46

And the hits just keep on a comin’….

Harley to cut 1,100 jobs as 4Q profit falls
Friday January 23, 7:18 am ET
Harley-Davidson to cut 1,100 jobs over 2 years, shutter facilities as 4th-qtr earnings plunge.

MILWAUKEE (AP) — Harley-Davidson Inc. said Friday it will cut 1,100 jobs over two years, close some facilities and consolidate others as it grapples with a slowdown in motorcycle sales.
The company also reported its fourth-quarter profit fell nearly 60 percent, and said it is slashing motorcycle shipments in 2009 to cope with reduced demand.

The iconic motorcycle maker said it will consolidate two engine and transmission plants in Milwaukee into its facility in Menomonee Falls, Wis. It will shrink its paint and frame operations in its York, Pa., plant and close its distribution facility in Franklin, Wis. Harley also said it will end its domestic transportation fleet operation.

The company said 70 percent of the job cuts will occur this year and the rest in 2010. The cuts will result in one-time charges of $110 million to $140 million over 2009 and 2010. Once they are finished, the cuts will save between $60 million and $70 million per year.

Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:37:17

“Harley to cut 1,100 jobs as 4Q profit falls.”

Sure to be just the start, tons of used bikes on the market, who needs/wants to buy new at this point.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-01-23 06:41:31

wmbz,

Please stop trying to post entire articles.

Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:43:10

OK, sorry!

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Comment by Michael Fink
2009-01-23 06:50:29

LOL. I’ve been thinking this for a long time, HD is in DEEP trouble. I honestly don’t know ONE person who’s ever bought one of those bikes with anything but HELOC money. And no, I’m not exaggerating. It seems unheard of to have 20K in the bank anymore, so that’s certainly not where it comes from! And just from observation, I always see plenty of HD bikes areas that are the most bubbly.

Frankly, HD was (IMHO) riding a huge bubble from the housing market, and getting a little tailwind from the Baby Boomers who were buying a bike for fun in their 50s. All those have not only stopped, but quickly reversed themselves; I predict VERY hard times for “luxury” bike makers for the next 5-10 years.

Also, IIRC, HD financed most of these purchases as well? If so, game over.

Comment by qaxbami
2009-01-23 06:57:35

“I predict VERY hard times for “luxury” bike makers for the next 5-10 years.”

True for all “luxury” products.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:00:52

even Bentley is closing their production line for 7 weeks ;)

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Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 09:29:08

This is so funny - I read this here while I was working out, then on the radio heard the local HD dealer reading some mantra, “all of your tomorrows are worth ONE GOOD RIDE,” HD is a legend, grab all the gusto, sha na na na na na live for today…lalala LOL.

Of course, they don’t really mean that..right?

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Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 10:39:51

Harly Davidson..and Ride the Legend ?

Somebody NEEDS one, if not all three of the following.

A real life, a cute but frugal GF and adult supervision of their piggybanks :)

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 12:03:01

“cute but frugal GF ”

Is there such a thing??

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 16:49:05

Aisle 9 - Unicorns, lottery winners, and free beer.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-01-23 06:58:01

Yep - same observation here.

Much like the homebuilders - not only is the market for *new* ones gone, but now they have to compete with a fresh batch of *used* ones up for sale as people get laid off or just need to cut back their budgets.

I figure I’ll be able to pick a nice one real cheap in about 5-7 years, just in time for mid-life crisis.

:-)

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-01-23 07:26:48

packman
My husband’s mid-life crisis was a new black Vette. Mine was a boob job. Mine was a lot cheaper and practical.

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Comment by rellimgerg
2009-01-23 07:36:54

…and useful. :)

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-23 08:00:47

Wipeout,

I thought there were maintenance costs… replacement after x years and so on.

Good grief whats this place coming to… Bens Boob Blog? :)

 
Comment by cougar91
2009-01-23 08:14:39

This post is useless without pictures!!!

 
Comment by Alex
2009-01-23 08:24:05

That’s the best comment I’ve read all day.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 08:29:09

too funny awaiting :)

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-01-23 08:31:32

Of course, you can always sell the Corvette once the “crisis” is past.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-23 09:02:52

awaiting wipeout,

Aren’t there maintenance costs, i.e., replacement after a certain duration?

My previous question didn’t post for whatever reason.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 09:20:38

Are you talking about her husband exeter?

I’m sure there is a line forming somewhere…:-)

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2009-01-23 09:38:55

Yeah, all cars wear out eventually.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-23 09:46:03

This ones gonna be the longest string of comments in HBB history. :)

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 10:04:15

Yeah, a funbag thread!

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2009-01-23 11:22:02

LOL @ cougar.

 
Comment by Seattle Renter
2009-01-23 11:40:34

Boobies. I just wanted to say that. Boobies.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 12:03:04

“Mine was a boob job. ”

…the prettiest waitress in Memphis knows
She’s only that way for a while

- Cory Branan

 
Comment by exeter
2009-01-23 12:15:34

Bens Boob Toob!

 
Comment by Sarah
2009-01-23 12:35:09

Yep, replacement recommended every 5 years due to leakage. Sounds great, right? Several major surgeries every 5 years or so for the rest of my life wasn’t worth to me. Quite happy with my natural ones.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 13:35:32

“Yep, replacement recommended every 5 years due to leakage.”

Deflationary!

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 14:42:10

4:40PM EST and still no pics……what’s the problem???

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-01-23 16:51:32

10 years out for replacement. It depends on the patient and placement. Mfg had upgrade to insure them for 10 years, all costs for surgery should they deflate. Went back to work the next day. They aren’t Dolly’s, just mine in my 20’s.

Sarah-
Sorry to hear of your troubles.

I rather have deflation than an inflationary boom.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:03:17

I like boobies!

 
 
Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 08:47:35

I like to occasionally cruise some of the RE ads and Craigslist.

I love to the see mounting owner and RE agent BS desperation Fairytales and attempt to TRANSLATE them into some form of reality.

I haven’t seen one yet with the basics….

1. Current owner is a greedy IDIOT with head in the clouds and up to his sorry ass in debt

2. House is an over-priced dump with NO equity possible in the foreseable future or your current lifetime

3. Listing price is super HIGH because my Lexis lease is breathing down my neck and spouse no longer sells mortgages from basement due to high water problems.(or I can’t afford to give away 6% on my Castle and give you the deal of a Lifetime)

4. We desperately NEED a GF, BF or a village idiot complete with a large wheel barrow full of $100’s as we all need to eat well, go to Jamaica and fund our retirements in these hard economic times.

5. Insert you own :)

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Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-23 19:20:46

How about the car ones?

I’m shopping for a nice used convertible - tons of desperate sellers in LA.

Woo hoo!

 
 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2009-01-23 09:48:25

Feel free to put a very nice muffler on it. If I want that kind of racket I’ll move closer to the Miramar airbase

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Comment by packman
2009-01-23 10:21:11

Not to worry - I’ll probably be in Montana or thereabouts.

A good bike - like a good boob job - needs lots of room. And goes well with good curves.

(P.S. when my wife reads this later - someone else stole my userid - OK?)

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-01-23 10:32:06

Go easy on me.I was trying to lighten up on all the doom and gloom. There is plenty of that.

Peter Schiff’s brother, Andrew, hosted this weeks radio show. Glen, a caller, and Andrew, do a good history of boom and bust cycles from th 1870’s through the GD. Really interesting stuff. Jan 21st show

http://www.europac.net/radioshow_archives.asp

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-01-23 07:29:41

Xerox did the same vendor financing in the late 90’s and the stock went from 60 to 3

============================================
Also, IIRC, HD financed most of these purchases as well? If so, game over.

 
Comment by Joe Schmoe
2009-01-23 07:33:10

I hate to say it, as it will make some people feel old, but if ever there was a product that can ONLY be associated with the Boomer generation, it’s the Harley-Davidson motorcycle. For this reason, Harley has a very bleak future ahead of it. I hope the company survives, as I have always been impressed by the management, but the fact is that things aren’t looking good.

It is difficult to explain just how strongly Harleys are associated with Boomers in the mind of younger generations. Let me put it this way: would you Boomers out there consider: (1) getting facial piercings, like disaffected Gen X kids did in the 90’s; or (2) driving a Honda Civic with a coffee can exhaust and giant rear spoiler, like teenagers were doing in the early 2000’s? No? Well, the Harley has just about the same level of appeal to younger folks.

IMO Harley sales are going to fall off a cliff in the next 5 years — I mean off a cliff — and the company will be lucky to survive. The management, always impressive, is aware of this and as a result has been making a huge attempt to change its image lately (my partner has one of the new bikes and it looks really cool, it’s all matte black and looks like a bike from the 1930’s) and its new products have very little resemblance to the stereotypical “Easy Rider” Harleys — but still, Harleys are so strongly associated with the Boomer generation that it’s going to take the company forever to build up a following along younger generations. My guess is that in the short term their best hope will be foreign sales — if they can turn the brand into another Levis, something that foreigners see as an American icon, that might work. But the US domestic market isn’t looking good.

I wonder if there is any equivalent to the Harley in housing? My off-the-cuff guess would be the two-story entranceway in some McMansions, but that’s just a guess. Can anyone think of any others?

Comment by Justin Holzer
2009-01-23 08:37:21

I’m 35 and I own a HD Sportster. The ease of maintenance was a big part of the purchasing decision. Harley-Davidson/Buells are some of the easiest bike to maintain yourself. I’ve been very happy with my cycle. I am eyeing the Buell Ulysses for my next bike, but $14,000 is a bit steep.

HD should push the Buell line a little more.

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Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 09:32:08

I think that is their problem in a nutshell - $14,000. Those under 20 just don’t have that kinda money to spend.

Their current customer base is literally dieing off.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-01-23 10:25:36

And if they *do* have that type of money to spend (and haven’t blown it all on a McMansion, etc.) it will be for a car, not a “toy,” which is what motocycles are generally seen as these days.

 
Comment by hunkydory
2009-01-23 15:02:33

back in Sept I decided I was going to learn to ride a motorcycle then and there. I hadn’t thought of it before, but I realized every one of my friends has a $15k-ish Harley w/chrome add-ons everywhere, or some other pricey Japanese crotch rocket. I didn’t even bother to ask!

Then I went to all the used bike shops in the area and attempted to bribe someone $50 to let me practice out back w/one of their beaters. No bites- they all referred me to the learners course the state gives, which isn’t held until late February.

So rather than cool my heels for 5 months, I bought two mid 1980’s Yamaha Maxim 650’s off of Craigslist: a running one for $700 and one that got hit for $200. I took the running one to a quiet location nearby work and drove it around for a couple nights until I got the hang of it. Piece of cake: now I’m making one sweet bike out of all the parts.

For less than a grand, I now have the ability to ride, lots of practical repair experience, and a bike that I could care less if it gets dropped. I’ve offered to give lessons to anyone my friends know who’s looking to learn, as long as said friend pays me some kind of penalty fee. I expect to recoup my money by Labor Day. :-D

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-01-24 04:35:30

Nice job!

Just remember to be very careful. Everyone I’ve known who rides motorcycles has been in some kind of an accident. From the very mild to, well, you know… :(

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:43:46

Somebody here once wrote “guys on harleys look like sacks of dog food.”

That comment has never left me.

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Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 09:10:32

Maybe the HD company can move to China and come up with a decked out $35,000 Fatboy mop-ped for the truly “Faithful” during the recession :)

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Comment by Terry
2009-01-23 12:15:42

You are absolutely correct, Harley sales will fall off a cliff and sooner than five years. I have personally owned eight harleys over my life time, starting with a 1949 in 1965. I also worked for harley in the mid sixties, when you couldn’t find any buyers for their bikes.
My last and present bike, a 1997 fxsts, was custom built and accessoried out. I traded in a 95. In 98, I oredered a 99 from my dealer. 99 came and went..no bike put on a long waiting list. i got fed up with waiting in 2001 and ordered a sportster, jsut to piss off the dealer. It came in 90 days. When the sales rep told me I could come in and get it, I told him where he could stick the bike. Took the dealer 3 months to sell it. I made up my mind. I was done with any new Harleys. As a boomer, that was in the founding HOG Chapter one in Milwaukee, I Have seen the management of Harley in action. When we Milwaukee Outlaws, decided to form Chapter one and give some image to the bikes, the factory couldn’t do enough for us. They listened to us and things really went well. Then, in the early 90’s the management decide to get the boomers into the game…those that could heloc their houses and write big checks. They stopped listening to us, their base and went off with bikes like the V-rod…stupid. When they finaly got the message on the long waiting periods for us, they started increasing production…still had long waits.
The end came at the 100th renunion. Having Elton john at the party was an insult. I was there and when he came on stage, half the 100k or so people there,left. Elton had to know we were leaving…you just dont start up 30k Harleys without hearing the sound. The company never apologized nor fired anyone for that hyped up mistake…they more or less said they were too good to apologize. that was the end of Harleys image among its best customers. Like all other arrogant companies..their gioing down! Good riddance!

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Comment by Gadfly
2009-01-23 13:10:35

Nice! Thx for the street view.

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2009-01-23 13:39:24

“When we Milwaukee Outlaws, decided to form Chapter one and give some image to the bikes, the factory couldn’t do enough for us. They listened to us and things really went well…The end came at the 100th renunion. Having Elton john at the party was an insult.”

LOL! You mean a bunch of bad @ssed bikers didn’t want to listen to “rolling like thunder, under the covers”? LMFAO.

 
Comment by Mike in Carlsbad
2009-01-23 23:47:05

I am a Gen Xer. Back in High School myself and a few friends all owned crotch rockets. We paid $3500-5000 for 600cc bikes (I had a Yamaha FZR) which we would ride up and down Palomar Mountain on the weekends. We called Harley riders “Hardleys” and still to this day none of us would ever buy them. We see them as over priced, slow, unreliable, American garbage (similar to how we see US automakers products). I think HD’s best bet is to sell in Japan, I could never see myself on such a joke of a bike.

 
 
 
Comment by DowninSanAntonio
2009-01-23 07:51:12

I am a BMW rider and have never understood the mentality of buying a Harley Davidson. They ride hard, they are loud and they require constant tuning up. With our financial markets struggling, I agree with the rest that the HD market is going to suffer substantially because the riders will not be able to afford to pay for the image any more, let alone for a very impractical toy.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-01-23 07:59:49

There’s a class of motorcycle riders who are motivated by fuel economy, ease of finding parkins spaces who will continue to buy bikes in the recession. They don’t buy Harleys, either.

Comment by Al
2009-01-23 08:21:54

I looked into getting a bike for gas savings, but the insurance cost turned me off. Having said that, living in the frosty north means having a motorcycle and a car, not a motorcycle instead of a car.

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Comment by santacruzsux
2009-01-23 09:13:02

Have you seen the new Honda Fury? That is one goofy bike that is very late to the custom ugly chopper game.

I’m still wishing that I never sold my 2000 zx-12r….

Faster is better.

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Comment by Not Mssing It
2009-01-23 10:00:34

aww 12r. Always wanted one of those. Settled for the Yamaha R1 instead. Fun for a while then gets old.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 10:31:10

wish I had my old Honda 125 or Kawasaki 175. I looked and looked and you can’t nice little bikes like those anymore. Would be perfect for my commute..

 
Comment by santacruzsux
2009-01-23 10:39:24

In Montana: The Kawasaki Versys looks like an incredible bargain of a motorcycle. Check it out.

Not Missing It: Always loved the R1, but I’m too tall to enjoy them for any more than an hour at a time. All those GP and Superbike riders are jockey sized!

 
Comment by LA Wallflower
2009-01-23 13:52:27

I have a 2002 Honda 919. 45mpg, 0-60 in 3 seconds. 6+ years and the only serious maintenance issue I’ve had is that the clutch cable snapped… after 40,000 miles.

I do almost all my own maintenance - I don’t have the tools to replace the tires so that goes to the shop. The bike is easy to work on if you get and read the factory manual. It will need a new clutch in about 10,000 miles, which will take about 30 minutes to replace.

It cost $8000 even, out the door, with 3-year warranty. Ownership cost is around $1200 per year total - that includes full coverage insurance.

I should easily get another 60,000 miles out of the bike, maybe more, since it won’t rust out here in SoCal.

How and why anyone would spend $24,000+ for an overweight, underpowered, unreliable, expensive to insure, expensive to maintain vibrating bucket of bolts is beyond me.

Oh wait, they’re loud and flashy. I guess they’re sort of like Enzyte on wheels.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 16:01:13

“The Kawasaki Versys looks like an incredible bargain of a motorcycle.”

Ok I will. But everything looks like crotch rockets now. Don’t want to ride cafe-racer style..

 
 
 
Comment by reuven
2009-01-23 09:50:31

HD also made a lot of money from their own financing division. (Google for details). I’m sure they didn’t account for all the defaults they’ve had to deal with…

 
Comment by hd74man
2009-01-23 12:12:20

RE: I honestly don’t know ONE person who’s ever bought one of those bikes with anything but HELOC money.

I bought my first one in 1976. MSRP was $3150.00 + 5% sales tax for a whoppin total of $3307.50

I had $2500.00 in cash, saved up from working 3 jobs. I got $400 for a Kawasaki 500 Triple 2-stroke trade-in. which left me $400.00 short.

So I went around to the local banks looking for the balance.

However, when informing the consumer loan officer that the engine displacement was 1200cc, for the loan ap the response was always a blinking stare followintg by a “we don’t finance anything over 750cc”.

I finally scored the $400 from a “sympathetic fatherly type” who clipped me for like a 14% rate.

HDI was the best stock I ever purchased.

$10k invested in the initial IPO with splits and dividends was worth like $1.1 million back in 2005. Performance smoked even Intel and Microsoft.

But there is no doubt that the rampant growth for the last 20 years distinctly paralleled the HELOC syndrome.

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-01-23 12:24:27

My brother didn’t use a HELOC to buy a Fatboy. He blew his inheritance money from our father’s estate on the Fatboy and other needless toys.

 
 
Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 07:53:00

Appetites for expensive HD “Fatboys” and those $6,000 designer Yuppie Jr custom bikes among other things will crash as wives look at mortgages pymt’s, college for the kids and even food on the table.

Can you say “Sturgis on a mop-ped” wannabe Macho man ? :)

Comment by exeter
2009-01-23 09:07:09

“bbbbbbbbbbbbbut I paid $25K for my fatboy!”

Nothing like announcing your level of stupidity to the world. Can you imagine paying $25k (plus interest, taxes and insurance) to look like one of the Village People?

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-23 09:29:56

I’ll take “Vroom, vroom!” over “ta-pocketa, ta-pocketa, ta-pocketa” any day.

Comment by Not Mssing It
2009-01-23 10:03:38

How about Vroom Vroom AFTER 11:00am on Sundays?

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Comment by hd74man
2009-01-23 12:21:33

RE: Sturgis on a mop-ped”

Ever see that old MTV clip, “MOPED Boy Does Sturgis”?

One of the JackAzz dudes does as the title says.

The segment where he drives up to a pack of Hell’s Angels and asks if he can “hang-out”, puts ya right into tears.

The grand finale was a stage and run down the local dragway against a blown nitro scoot, which brought the crowd to it’s feet.

A total motorcycle classic if there ever was one.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:30:19

It has been reported that Geither the tax dodge was a ’smart’ guy, however he made a glaringly ignorant comment yesterday. If we head down the path to protectionism then we can forget a recession because we will get a depression. Those that don’t read, know or understand history do indeed repeat it.

Geithner blows up the world
January 22nd, 2009
By David Goldman

Geithner’s comment today that President Obama believes that China is “manipulating the yuan” takes us straight into Great Depression territory. With Paul Volcker at his side, I had hoped that Obama would be perspicacious enough not to touch the third rail of global economics, namely protectionism. Nothing, absolutely nothing that Obama might have done could be worse than this. If the US looks at the global jobs market as a zero-sum game in which the US has to claw back manufacturing jobs which China has taken away, we are back to beggar-thy-neighbor and the 1930s.

Notice that the 10-year Treasury has backed up from a low of 2.05% to 2.65% today, even while the stock market and the economic outlook have cratered. During the past several days, the market has sold off essentially everything: stocks, credit, and Treasuries. Only oil and gold are up. The cost of credit protection on the leading sovereigns, including the US, has jumped. What is happening?

As I observed yesterday, the immediate risk to sovereign credit, the risk of Icelandization of Ireland and perhaps even the UK, lies in the banking crisis. If governments take over banks on the premise that their asset books are worthless but their liabilities must be met, the weight of bank liabilities is sufficient to sink government finances. It is the threat of bank nationalization and the likelihood that the US government will have to assume massive amounts of additional debt that is crushing the long end of the Treasury curve and forcing up the price of credit protection on the US sovereign.

The alternative, hinted at by Paul Volcker after the presentation of the Group of 30 recommendations on the banking system, would eliminate mark to market accounting, stop the writedowns at banks, and run banks on a cash-flow plus recovery basis. There is a sufficient base of viable assets to keep the banks in positive cash flow if financed at zero interest by the Fed, and effectively zero capital cover (since the banks really don’t have any capital).

All this presumes that the major creditors of the US, notably China, will continue to support the Treasury market in a huge way. A cynic might think that Geithner’s statement is designed to unleash a wave of speculation that China will revalue, leading to enormous capital inflows into yuan and Chinese government intervention, which would balloon Chinese reserves, and increase Chinese purchases of Treasuries. No-one in this business, though, is that subtle or that smart.

It appears simply that Obama is playing to his labor constituency. Resorting to protectionism could have cataclysmic consequences in the midst of a 1930s-style contraction of world trade. If China were to shift even a fraction of its reserves into gold, the consequences for the dollar would be frightening. We already are seeing hairline fractures in the street cred of the US Treasury, in the form of a LIBOR+75 cost of default protection as well as the violent backup in the long end of the Treasury curve. That should flash a red danger signal at the Administration.

The way out of the recession (might as well say depression) lies through Beijing, Francesco Sisci and I wrote in November. This is the worst economic news I’ve heard all year.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-01-23 07:11:11

I agree. Global trade should be unrestricted. We will get in a severe depression if we resurrect the Smoot-Hawley act.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 08:28:06

Actually, the gains of protectionism are asymmetric.

In GD1, the UK may have lost its reserve currency status but it’s economy only contracted 5-10%. Compare that with the then “leading” exporter, the US which bore the brunt of the correction.

Fast forward to today, and the analogy should be clear.

Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:47:24

“Actually, the gains of protectionism are asymmetric.

In GD1, the UK may have lost its reserve currency status but it’s economy only contracted 5-10%. Compare that with the then “leading” exporter, the US which bore the brunt of the correction.

Fast forward to today, and the analogy should be clear.”

FPSS, I love reading your comments. I understand, maybe, half of them, but they’re still fun to read.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:34:43

Thank you. :)

 
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 09:55:43

Global trade should be unrestricted.

Yes because unrestricted corporations did not get us into this whole shebang in the first place.

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-23 10:27:01

I was thinking Bill’s comment was tongue-in-cheek.

If not - well I agree with global trade being unrestricted, as long as that includes the U.S. In other words - make all countries on level playing grounds with regards to:

- Environmental regulations
- Union regulations
- OSHA regulations
- Minimum wage regulations
- Etc.

Only after that happens should we talk about unrestricted free trade. Otherwise all of our manufacturing jobs will continue to get shipped to other countries - depression or not.

Comment by CA renter
2009-01-24 04:44:08

+1

Fair trade, not “free” trade.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-01-23 10:36:58

Sorry, but that Depression is baked in at this point.

People keep saying we need to “compete with the world” and are thus against protectionism, but they forget a few things:

- We are playing on an unfair playing field. Plenty of other nations have protectionist policies in place, and oddly, many of them aren’t in a permanent Depression. If other nations have such policies and we don’t, it is only natural that we will end up losing our jobs, economic advantages, etc.

- The concept of “competing” with others is fallacy since it assumes that every nation in the world is equal - wages, labor laws, etc. - and that the only “problem” is that people in the US don’t feel like “competing.” This is wrong. There is no way that a nation such as ours, with various labor laws in place, minimum wage, environmental standards, etc. can compete with near-slave labor in 3rd world heck-hole nations. You can’t compete with that unless we, too, are willing to have slave labor, horrible living conditions, etc. No matter what job you do, there is some poor person in some far-off land who can do it for 1/10 the cost - and, if his task master beats him - probably less than that. We cannot “compete” against that.

No, some form of protectionism IS needed, IMHO. It is the only way to compete since it balances out the protectionist polices of other nations and acknowledges that we will not lower ourselves to the lowest living standards in the world just to have comparable labor costs.

Comment by Jon
2009-01-23 11:02:28

Completely agree. I am all for international trade as long as we do not run a trade deficit. I am happy to buy stuff from China, as long as other countries are willing to buy stuff from us.

I would strongly argue that this current recession can be traced to massive trade deficits which funded the MBS market which allowed the credit bubble.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-23 13:16:18

Bingo.

 
 
 
 
Comment by hobo in mass
2009-01-23 07:11:36

“Those that don’t read, know or understand history do indeed repeat it.”

As my old history teacher used to say–and those that do will repeat it anyway.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 07:27:48

If Americans and America don’t go deeper and deeper into debt, the only way they will be able to afford to buy goods from China, Japan et. al is by exporting an equal value of goods and services in return.

That is the problem. China contributed to it, to be sure, by running up reserves and allowing an unequal distribution of income to suppress global demand. Did you know that poor Chinese, in a “communist” country, have to pay for basic health care and primary education?

But buy-now-pay-later Americans also contributed to the problem.

Comment by Leighsong
2009-01-23 07:44:29

Reuters (google title)

RPT-China to spend $124 billion on health-care reform
Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:00pm EST

BEIJING, Jan 22 (Reuters) - China plans to spend about 850 billion yuan ($124 billion) on health-care reforms over the next three years, according to a cabinet blueprint for change in the sector.

The State Council issued the three-year reform plan during a meeting on Wednesday, according to a statement on the central government’s website (www.gov.cn).

The reforms aim to improve the coverage of basic medical insurance, to set up a system of “basic medicines” covered by the medical insurance system, expand the network of local-level clinics, improve the public health system and initiate pilot reforms to the operation of public hospitals, it said.
(Cont’d)

Leigh

Comment by tresho
2009-01-23 10:24:36

Let’s get out the old calculator. China’s population 1.3 billion. $124 Billion to be spent, that means $95 per capita. Over 3 whole years. Whoop de do.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 10:31:14

I love when people introduce “long division” into economic discourse.

It pretty much is the only tool that all the economic jeniuses (sic) and poindexters haven’t quite mastered.

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-23 11:25:31

Spending per capita doesn’t mean anything, if the money isn’t being spent wisely. Most of these analyses are suspect, IMO, because they either ignore outcomes, or their definition of “good” outcomes is arbitrary or insufficient.

In our health care system, money isn’t spent wisely because so much of it goes towards administration and defensive medicine, but no one talks about that…the attorneys and bureaucrats will have their pound of flesh.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:32:02

So it’s even worse so doing the long division is a rather conservative estimate!

 
 
 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 09:01:10

Here’s something that doesn’t make sense to me. Apparently the US Congress just passed a law requiring that any shipment of products intended for children 12 and under must be tested for lead (that is, items per shipment, not items per batch of items manufactured). That includes books and clothing items.

So…Mattel, and Fisher-Price and Wal-Mart, who manufacture in China, where all the lead drama was coming from won’t be too effected, because their shipment quanitities are so large. But smaller American toy-makers are effectively ruined (one school supplier estimated their lead-testing costs will be 26 million/year). This will also put companies who supply schools out of business, and if you want to sell second-hand goods to kids, be prepared to be in a lot of trouble. Effective February 10.

Oh, German and French toymakers, who traditionally operate under much stricter guidelines have stopped shipping to the US, because they can’t afford the testing.

So, Congress is effectively
-hurting toy imports from “safe” countries
-hurting small to mid-size American-based companies and American-made items
-decreasing competion for multinationals who manufacture in China.

It’s like anti-protectionism? Or worse.

Comment by potential buyer
2009-01-23 09:40:01

Just out of curiosity, how many children in the US have actually died from lead poisoning?

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Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 09:58:23

Lead poisoning doesn’t really kill, it just makes children stupid.

Some might argue that this is a growing epidemic.

 
Comment by Dale
2009-01-23 10:23:44

“Lead poisoning doesn’t really kill, it just makes children stupid.”

….so do ipods, video games, computers, T.V.

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-23 11:34:02

Lead poisoning can indeed kill if the exposure is high enough, but at the levels of typical exposure from common sources usually will lead to substantial impairment of cerebral development.

Think of it as being like radiation. Cumulative exposure(i.e. multiple toys played with frequently) can be enough to cause serious toxicity.

 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 16:27:46

Oh, yes. If someone asked me if I favoured stricter guidelines for lead testing in toys, I would certainly answer yes…until I heard the way they’re going about it. Crazy!

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-01-23 10:44:03

But it *does* help Wal-mart, so it’s ALL GOOD!!

Just check how many congress-critters Walmart owns vs. those owned by their competition and the reasoning behind it is clear.

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Comment by gather no moss
2009-01-23 14:48:55

My friend started a small woodworking business in his barn a few years back. He’s really upset about these new regulations, his toys sell really well. Says he’s going to be effectively shut down because of this.

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Comment by ella
2009-01-23 17:28:28

So many businesses will be hurt by this that I think it will be amended or repealed (especially since it has angered the American Library Association and is going to cause real supply problems for schools) so tell your friend to hang it tight. Sucks, though.

I know someone who’s shutting down, too.

 
 
 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 09:53:53

WT
Another way to look at it: Used to be the Americans would visit China hunting for bargains to load up on stuff/consumer goods to bring home. Now some Chinese can buy some items (non-knockoffs) cheaper in the U.S.
A few years ago, I might have thought that would be impossible.
And your point about credit is a good one.
The very notion of *paying interest* on a credit card purchase is not part of any part of the Chinese culture I know anything about. Personal responsibility runs deep, even if it is hammered by leaders who might as well be striking thousands of nails. Commit a crime there, and the criminal or his/her family has to pay the tab.

 
Comment by (Soon to be ex-) GS fixer
2009-01-23 12:28:31

The way we were told it was going to work, was that the items that were too “labor-intensive” and were “inefficient to produce here” would go overseas, while all the higher tech stuff (like airplanes) would be exported to other countries.

The boots-on-the-ground reality is that China and a whole bunch of other countries were/are using their buying power to leverage technology transfers from US manufacturers. I’ve seen this process up close and personal at one of the aircraft OEMs.

You now have the situation where US manufacturers are competing against products which may not be quite as good, but can be purchased for 20% of what the US made product sells for.

These countries are doing this to improve the welfare of their citizens, so I can’t fault them.

Too bad our own government wasn’t worried about the same thing.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 12:41:34

I think this is just the same reality that many small companies are confronted with on a daily basis. For them protection by patents it too expensive or takes too much time, so their only protection is to keep innovating.

Many big US companies have been in a very favorable situation regarding patents, which is going to end because it no longer reflects the current reality in the world. And often I think it is good this is going to end, because many parts of US/international patent law (e.g. regarding software and biochemistry) is extremely unfair and heavily skewed towards US companies.

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Comment by (Soon to be ex-) GS fixer
2009-01-23 13:12:02

The problem is, all your months of time spent, and thousands/millions of dollars spent “innovating”, can be transfered with just a mouse click.

Which is why I don’t write anything down anymore, when it comes to “tribal knowledge”.

 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 13:52:35

There’s also a growing problem with “patent gridlock”, isn’t there? I heard that some new drugs are being held back from development due to legal entanglements with one, or multiple, patents which would be violated.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Leighsong
2009-01-23 07:53:03

The White House comment section is up and running.

500 caracter limit, IIRC.

I commented this morning, something along the line that China loathes public critisism.

I also wrote they can cash in the UST and we’d be toast.

O.K. It was written a bit more coherently, but ya get the picture.

I’m going to print that article and fax it as well.

Leigh

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 09:11:01

Cash in for what, kimosabe?

Sure, France can sell to China or vice versa BUT the sum total of foreigners can’t “cash in” their USD for anything but US goods and services.

Isn’t this completely obvious?

Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 10:00:02

LOL, FPSS
That’s because I recently touched base with a brother in Utah, a successful businessman whom I think could retire early if he wasn’t so driven.
So, I ask him, “How do you make yourself diversified?”
“Diversify into WHAT?” came the reply.

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Comment by Jon
2009-01-23 11:08:49

Actually not. I can take $$$ just about everywhere in the world and cash them in for just about anything. Being the reserve currency, it never has to come back to the U.S.

That’s the beauty of being American. We can trade cars for green pieces of paper. Imagine if we actually had to produce enough to earn those cars.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 11:16:39

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

The SUM TOTAL of foreigners cannot cash in their USD for anything but US goods and services.

Naturally, they can take more USD if they desire. And it works till it doesn’t.

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2009-01-23 13:26:09

Sounds like Aladinsane all over again…. only he’s not trading it in for gold…yet

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 18:17:20

LOL, doesn’t it now? Tell me about it! ;-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-01-23 08:13:51

If your country doesn’t produce anything and unemployment is rising tell me how calling China out on their currency manipulation will result in any loss to the US. Isn’t the FED trying to cause inflation and prevent unemployment. OK so china stops buying bonds, bam you have inflation and the US dollar drops and we can export more and US consumers will buy more American. Sure we’ll have to print more dollars but that’s already happening.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-01-23 10:49:00

Except that there won’t be any wage inflation… heck, I doubt there will be any increase in employment - just hire more illegals, H1-B visa-holders, whatever, pay them dirt, and have them produce the goods.

Until this problems change, there can’t be any real recovery.

Comment by (Soon to be ex-) GS fixer
2009-01-23 13:17:50

Buick is a popular automobile brand in China. You would think that we would be exporting Buicks to China.

Wrong answer, Schmedlap,……they are using their market size to coerce GM into building Buicks in China. Along with all the associated technology transfers.

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Comment by BanteringBear
2009-01-23 13:52:38

“…they are using their market size to coerce GM into building Buicks in China. Along with all the associated technology transfers.”

The US and it’s corporations have become quite fond of reaping short term profits at the expense of long term prosperity. I wonder how these “jeniuses” would reply when asked about the long term health of Buick under such a model.

 
Comment by OrangeGirl
2009-01-23 18:28:32

I’ve toured a Buick factory in China, when I was in college in 1999, it was brand new. Our hosts were quite proud of it. At the time, I thought it was so interesting that they were proud of some gross, polluting manufacturing plant. Only now, with more perspective and age do I realize they were proud of what the factory meant. They had it right. Industry! Growth! Keeping money and jobs in their country!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 08:37:22

“… This is the worst economic news I’ve heard all year.”

Don’t worry, the year is young! :-)

 
Comment by cactus
2009-01-23 08:42:56

watch TBT the 20 year reverse treasury ETF it seems to be going up after the China comments on fear of a trade war ?

 
Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 11:39:03

That Geither and his profound comment to congress, scared the crapola out of me.

“Turbo Tax”

WTF ?!? Blame ALL of your Sins on TurboTax.

Sheesh…Whatever happened to the old trusty and tried…”the Devil made me do it” :)

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-23 13:13:14

Geez, guy…Obama has been in office for 4 days and look at the mess he’s caused! It’s all Obama’s fault…wmbz sez so, so it must be so.

The Lew Rockwell inspired conspiracy articles masquerading as real news are especially frustrating. If you’re going to post these long articles at least let us go back to your original sources. Do all so-called “conservatives” have issues with transparency?

Anyway, addressing China’s trade deficit is something that should have been done 8-10 years ago, and yes doing it now will cause problems, but it needs to be done. China, a non-ally, has no business having such strong influence on our currency. I, for one, am glad that we finally have a president who is not afraid to take on the Chinese and their apologists here, especially in the business world. It’s a national security issue, and inconveniencing a bunch of offshoring robber barons shouldn’t figure into the equation at all.

China might tank our currency if they sell off our treasuries, but at this point I am all for hastening the day of reckoning that the bailouts are simply delaying. The financial house of cards built on nutty economic policy has to fall, and the sooner the better.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 17:24:11

Agreed. I’m not sure what the geopolitical reasoning was (if any) in letting China have this much influence, but they are NOT our friends.

Comment by ella
2009-01-23 17:38:55

“I’m not sure what the geopolitical reasoning was”

I thought it partly short-term strategy (both government and corporate CEOs and CFOs seem to have incentive for short-term management techniques) and partly people like David Frum who think that China will always be too scared to call in the chips because of the fallout for their manufacturing base.

The great thing about economic history is that you can’t really skirt the fundamentals (or maybe you can, I don’t know that much yet). I just think about the poor old Spanish finding all that precious metal in Argentina, setting up their nasty mines and thinking they had it made. They didn’t know it would cause inflation, didn’t see it coming…in the meantime their economy wound up stagnating due to a lack of innovation, caused by all the surplus wealth. How’s that for a tidy morality tale?

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Comment by ella
2009-01-23 17:41:25

(PS, not that I’m wishing for terrible fallout on anyone, I just thought it was interesting.)

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 21:06:27

The “Spanish Lesson” is a good one to remember.

 
 
 
Comment by ahansen
2009-01-24 00:12:39

NSO-

Thank you.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:32:56

Step one, partial, step two full blown. The boyz bit into the gubment cheese and found out it was connected to a great big rat trap.

Citigroup, Bank of America ‘Nationalized’ as U.S. Calls Shots
By Ari Levy

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. government’s decision to pledge billions of additional dollars with strings attached to Citigroup Inc. and Bank of America Corp. may be nationalization by another name, according to former bankers and regulators.

Faced with pressure from lawmakers, banks have shaken up management, eliminated executive bonuses and staff and canceled conventions. They’ll be forced to do monthly reports on how they’ve boosted lending while slashing quarterly dividends to one cent a share for three years.

“When the Treasury tells a bank to pay a penny a share vs. its old dividend, you know who’s calling the shots,” said Jon Bruss, a 40-year industry veteran and founder of Hartland, Wisconsin-based Fortress Partners Capital Management Ltd., which invests in banks. “It may not be de jure nationalization but I think it’s de facto nationalization.”

While avoiding steps taken by the U.K., which this week acquired a 70 percent stake in Royal Bank of Scotland Plc, U.S. regulators are no longer passively injecting capital into the nation’s biggest banks. Investors have fled, sending Citigroup and Bank of America down by more than 50 percent this year, on concern that tougher U.S. oversight is coming after the government takeover last year of mortgage financers Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and insurer American International Group Inc.

Citigroup, based in New York, tumbled 56 cents, or 15 percent, to $3.11 yesterday on the New York Stock Exchange. Bank of America plunged 97 cents, or 15 percent, to $5.71. The 24- company KBW Bank Index has dropped 38 percent in 2009, following last year’s 50 percent decline.

Government Decides

“Some of these traditional management decisions are being made by the government,” said Donald Powell, 67, who was chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. from 2001 to 2005, and now lives in Amarillo, Texas. “Shareholders don’t have a voice in some of these things that are occurring.”

After the Treasury’s initial investments in October failed to adequately shield Citigroup and Bank of America from mortgage- related losses, the companies returned for more capital along with protection from hundreds of billions of dollars in potential defaults.

Citigroup needed $20 billion in November on top of an earlier $25 billion injection, which still wasn’t enough to keep the company from splitting apart after posting a record deficit on Jan. 15. The same day, Bank of America received $20 billion to cover losses tied to Merrill Lynch & Co. after the two companies received a combined $25 billion in October.

Comment by qaxbami
2009-01-23 07:37:20

“Shareholders don’t have a voice in some of these things that are occurring.”

What would they say if they had a voice: Please don’t give us any more money. Let us die a natural death, sinking under a growing wave of loan defaults. I think of that poster from the movie “The Perfect Storm,” which shows the boat almost vertical on the face of the wave, with the rest of the wave towering over it.

Comment by climber
2009-01-23 09:07:04

I’m of the opinion that for folks of my financial means the stock market is a sucker’s game.

I’ve never had any say. Ever see the results of a shareholder vote? Even really simple reforms go down in flames. Share holders are either ignorant or plain idiots. 99.8% of shares are voted with the board - that level of consensus is virtually impossible to explain.

Comment by santacruzsux
2009-01-23 10:42:43

If you’re not an insider, you’re an outsider. If you’re an outsider, you ain’t worth s***!

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Comment by tresho
2009-01-23 13:15:27

99.8% of shares are voted with the board - that level of consensus is virtually impossible to explain. I think you have already explained it. Small shareholders have no say in corporate governance, only the insiders do. Those who don’t like this situation are free not to buy shares in such companies.

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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2009-01-23 17:29:44

The only company I own 5% of stiffed me on the company meeting. I sent them a certified mail letter (to prove that they knew my new contact info), which arrived on Friday. I assume they didn’t open it until 1PM on Monday (just in case it contained a proxy designation), at which time they quickly sent me a form email remining me of the annual meeting that took place at 11am that same day.

All this chicanery from a 4 person company. ;) You can;t even trust the little guys anymore.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:35:21

Off course, but worth paying attention to I think. Could be some tight supplies coming to some areas this year…

Calif. farmers slash planting to cope with drought
In drought-stricken California, farmers cut back spring planting to cope with drought
* Garance Burke and Tracie Cone, Associated Press Writers
* Friday January 23, 2009, 12:11 am EST
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Some of the nation’s largest farms plan to cut back on planting this spring over concerns that federal water supplies will dry up as officials deal with the drought plaguing California.

Farmers in the Central Valley said Thursday they would forego planting thousands of acres of water-thirsty canning tomatoes and already have started slashing acreage for lettuce and melons.

As growers in Fresno and Kings counties prepared to sow their dry fields with tomato seeds this week, the giant water district that supplies the irrigation for their sprinklers warned them to think again.

Computer models of the state’s parched reservoirs and this year’s patchy snowfall showed shortages so extreme that federal officials could slash supplies down to zero, managers at the Westlands Water District told their members in an emergency conference call.

“We thought it was important to talk to our growers so they can make important planting decisions,” said Sarah Woolf, a spokeswoman for Westlands, the coalition of giant agribusinesses in the state’s fertile interior.

Officials with the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation and the state Department of Water Resources plan to announce next month how much water they’ll speed to farms and cities.

But farmers say that’s too late, since they need to decide what to plant now, as they negotiate with banks for crop loans. Growers who are struggling to revive shriveled vines and dying trees say they’re panicked at the thought of having to solely rely on well water of dubious quality.

“It’s ugly,” said Shawn Coburn, who grows 1,000 acres of almonds in Fresno County. “I’ve heard from probably eight to 10 guys whose lines of credit are frozen until they can show they have water.”

Coburn said he is abandoning tomatoes and will use his brackish well water to try to keep vineyards and almond orchards alive. Other growers are choosing instead to let their nut trees go dormant, which has meant less work for the beekeepers who travel to central California each year to pollinate orchards.

Farmers’ decisions to fallow thousands of acres during last year’s drought cost $260 million in crop losses statewide, as well as hundreds of jobs. In the tiny farm community of Mendota, in the heart of Westlands farming country, the unemployment rate is nearly 40 percent, city officials report.

Elissa Lynn, a senior meteorologist with the state water agency, said the forecast so far suggests conditions will not improve this spring.

“It’s pretty clear we’re heading into the third dry year in a row,” Lynn said. “We’ve only gotten one-third of the rainfall we desperately need, and we’re already halfway through the winter.”

Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 07:29:25

S–t. Will someone please plant tomatoes back east?

Comment by cactus
2009-01-23 08:46:43

Sinaloa Mexico millions of tomatos

 
 
Comment by max4me
2009-01-23 07:33:31

that true? I thought last year in January we had the freak storm from Alaska that covered the whole state

 
Comment by colomountains
2009-01-23 07:38:30

So the price of food is going to go up? Wouldn’t this force a cycle, where people would not be purchasing food as it is deemed too expensive? Did this happened in the 1930’s as well?

 
Comment by edward
2009-01-23 07:44:40

Don’t forget the Florida freeze. Oranges, strawberries, etc. much affected.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 08:40:57

How did the Plant City-area strawberry crop fare? I always look forward to a veritable tsunami of fresh strawberries at low prices for a few weeks in February.

Comment by edward
2009-01-23 08:50:36

Everyone is still assessing the damage. I haven’t heard of anything devastating yet, so maybe it won’t be too bad. But this is the coldest air we’ve seen in a long time…so I have to think there will be losses.

I agree about the Plant City strawberries. Great stuff.

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Comment by palmetto
2009-01-23 11:59:59

Delightful. I stuff my face with them as long as they are in season.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 12:28:24

Palmy:
Maybe the housing collapse will stunt the growth of Plant City into Lakeland into Orlando into…. so there will be plenty of prime farm land left. :)
I know some growers there who didn’t catch the $30,000 oer acre home site and $100,000 commercial lot prices when they were available.
Many are OK with that, for now, since farming is what they do.

 
 
 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 08:40:19

Aladinsane are you in New Zealand watching all of this?

 
Comment by climber
2009-01-23 09:10:23

Crop loans? That’s pathetic. Our farmers have so little cash they need to borrow for planting? My grandfather paid cash for his farm and never borrowed a cent. He drove 20 year old tractors and never bought anything new, but he could afford to plant every year.

Folks need to get a grip with reality. Debt is so pervasive I don’t think people realize how bad it’s gotten.

Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 10:09:55

My father grew up on a farm and that was the way they always did it. Borrow in spring and pay back the loan in the fall. They never had a lot of cash, but they always ate well.

Your grandpa must have been a very wealthy man.

 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2009-01-23 10:18:34

Goggle “Overhead”

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-01-23 11:13:23

“I’ve heard from probably eight to 10 guys whose lines of credit are frozen until they can show they have water.”

Well at least the banks aren’t going “no-doc” on the amount of water farmers are claiming. This should be viewed in a positive light.

Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 12:42:30

Good point, DennisN. “Show me the gallons.”
Also, farmers on the west side of Fresno in this particular water district stannd to collect tidy sums as a result of convoluted water war litigation with the BLM, which had purportedly pledged, but did not deliver, a draignage system to carry away tailwater that has contributed to severe environmental damage. The feds (the public) are also buying some of this land to “retire” it.
Absent those government “programs,” this out of the way real estate may revert back to the days of creosote plants (bushes, not factories), though with the San Joaquin plugged seemingly forever, any kind of natural recovery would be generations away, if at all.

 
 
 
Comment by ronin
2009-01-23 06:41:16

Guess the last old fat grandpa with a p.t. just bought his, no market left.

Comment by CrackerJim
2009-01-23 06:57:15

I don’t have mine yet. My children (and grandchildren) won’t let me. I grumble and let them talk me out of it as I don’t know what the heck I would be doing with it anyway as it would just sit in the garage with a cover over it. I just look and dream until sanity returns.

 
Comment by Seattle Renter
2009-01-23 13:34:24

What the heck is a p.t.? Penn and Teller?

Comment by Northof49
2009-01-23 14:38:00

PT Cruiser?

 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 06:41:49

Hey deflationists, what’s up?

new all time high in euro gold today (except for brief intraday spike in October), and $gold close to breaking out from the medium term downtrend as well. Looks to me like the market is sniffing some wildly inflationairy policies around the corner.

On another note related to housing:
Squatting wars in Netherlands are on the rise, with strong violence used against the squatters. Squatting is primarily a political issue here, especially in Amsterdam which is (and has been for generations) ruled by rich people with a certain Middle Eastern background. They will always protect property rights, even if the owners leave their buildings abandoned and falling down for many years.

Things are starting to look more and more like the late seventies, just before the big -40% housing crash. In those times tanks rolled through the streets of Amsterdam to protect the speculators and politicians from angry citizens. Fortunately for the squatters the Dutch army is overstretched at the moment, fighting some dumb US war in Afghanistan. Or maybe this is not good, because speculators now use foreign mobs against the squatters, and politics has clearly no intention to stop them.

Comment by combotechie
2009-01-23 06:51:50

“Hey, deflationists, what’s up?”

“Things are starting to look more and more like the late seventies, just before the big-40% housing crash.”

There it is.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 07:03:08

home prices in Netherlands were up again in december 08 … it will be a slow, slow crash this time. And besides, I doubt that even crashing home prices would cause the monthly payments for the average owner to fall significantly.

But who knows, maybe the US will be crushed first by deflation and then by (hyper)inflation, while Europe gets it the other way round?

 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 13:55:10

““Hey, deflationists, what’s up?””

Shouldn’t it be ““Hey, deflationists, what’s goin’ down?”

=^_^=

 
 
Comment by dude
2009-01-23 06:58:29

I wonder what effect we will see when the masses realize next week that the Fed can’t lower rates again?

Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:50:47

“I wonder what effect we will see when the masses realize next week that the Fed can’t lower rates again?”

They’ll just go out and get they nails did anyway. Shoot, we deserves it.

Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 16:17:44

They’ll just go out and get they nails did anyway.

Is that supposed to be Ebonics?

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Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 07:01:22

Noticed the Euro is sinking again vs the $, but not as bad as Sterling. Looks odd from this side, the $ and gold going up together. The fiasco that is Britain, banking capitol of the world, should be putting tremendous pressure on gold rather than a little nudge. Like those who would flee, have nothing to flee with. Tug-of-wars all over. Cash destruction winning in all.

Sounds like a bad case of denial, blaming a downturn in housing prices on the poor vagrants.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 07:21:53

looks to me like the whole system is starting an inflationairy crash; only the US doesn’t realise it yet, because of the current US$ spike (deleveraging?) which is bound to be very temporary IMHO.

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:47:50

You talk about wages in Europe going up. This would allow an inflationary spiral. Here, our wages are not going up. Any inflationary preasure instantly is met with crashing demand, creating oversupply.

There will be no inflation without wage increases.

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Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:03:59

yes, agree - I’m puzzled by the difference. In a globalized economy one of these trends should reverse direction soon.

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 08:05:18

Deleveraging is a process of realizing losses, not profits. Less is not more.

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Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 10:10:07

I don’t know much about the Dutch Army or Afghanistan.
I do know that all the going out of business sales are pummeling prices down at retail. My kid’s piano teacher is offering 15 minutes extra for the half-hour fee. Comcast reduced my fees again. And so on…

Comment by In Colorado
2009-01-23 11:55:57

Sure ain’t seeing this in my neck of the woods.

 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-23 20:34:45

Highly desirable retail areas of LA are starting to look like a ghost town. Several stores have closed. Melrose / Robertson blvd. both have several empty storefronts.

Unbelieveable, the change in LA from a few years ago.

Thanks for helping me believe during the bubbly times, guys.

 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 10:12:37

You guys must have very small tanks, I could barely get a compact car through some areas of Amsterdam.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 10:57:17

we have pretty big tanks, but no problem: the tanks simply crushed all the (parked) cars that stood in their way. Our government doesn’t give a damn about collateral damage in these situations, they only cared about protecting the Big Money guys (and btw, the insurance doesn’t cover either because they have a special clause for civil unrest).

I remember very well because I was studying in Amsterdam at the time; it was a good lesson about how power and money corrupts. To the authorities, a student was about the same as being a muslim terrorist nowadays: students were frequently beaten up by anonymous groups of riot police, to make sure most of them stayed away from the squatting areas.

I don’t think today Dutch authorities have to fear the students because those are too busy with their own careers to be a nuisance. But there plenty of other angry citizens, and their numbers will increase when the economic situation gets worse.

Come to think of it, this is just in time for the coronation of our new King Alexander, expected this year. The biggest riots happened in 1980 around the inauguration of the current Queen.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:41:52

Just one of a dozen reasons to start chunking these arrogant pukes off the roof tops.

Merrill’s Thain Said to Pay $1.2 Million to Redecorate Office
By Peter S. Green

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — John Thain, the former Merrill Lynch & Co. chief executive officer ousted yesterday, spent $1.2 million redecorating his downtown Manhattan office last year as the company was firing employees, a person familiar with the project said.

Thain hired Los Angeles-based decorator Michael Smith, chosen by President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle to redecorate the White House, CNBC reported. Thain paid Smith $837,000 and his purchases included $87,000 for area rugs, $25,000 for a pedestal table and $68,000 for a 19th century credenza, CNBC said.

Thain, 53, oversaw the sale of Merrill Lynch to Bank of America Corp. last month, and took over the bank’s wealth management and corporate and investment banking divisions. Merrill’s $15.4 billion fourth-quarter loss forced Bank of America to seek additional aid from the U.S. government, which last week agreed to provide $20 billion in capital and $118 billion in asset guarantees.

“Spending company money on a lavish re-do at a time when Merrill’s finances were rocky sends the wrong message,” said Amy Borrus, deputy director of the Council of Institutional Investors. “Thain was compensated well enough to foot the bill himself if he wanted such an upscale redecoration.”

“It is pretty surprising that John Thain would need to spend that much on a power office in this economy,” said Sheila Bridges, a New York interior designer who decorated former President Bill Clinton’s Harlem office. “I do hope the designer’s fees were also included in that price tag.”

Comment by Tim
2009-01-23 08:10:42

Dont forget that he also paid his Driver around $250k, and authorized Merrill bonuses in December that were only about 6% lower than 2007 while BAC was getting bailout money. His azz deserved the boot.

 
Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 08:13:11

I do not understand why none of these guys are send to prison!!! They are taking money from the people to use it in such stupid ways… it really pisses me off

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 08:47:32

The boards need to be thrown off the same roof also.

 
Comment by robin
2009-01-24 00:29:15

”’Chunking” or “chucking” (as in throwing with full energy, delight, and glee)and waiting to hear the sonorous conclusion which signals a re-bonding with the earth? - :)

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-01-24 04:56:12

I’ll betcha $20 bucks to 20 Merrill Lynch shares that that office was pretty damn nice before the big redecorating storm. Frankly, most of these Lords of Creation ( not ) wouldn’t step foot in our humble home, even though it’s clean and reasonably well-decorated and furnished. I’m sure they would consider it a hovel. There is something that my 84-year old Depression father said about what he called ” these new homes which are palaces. ” He doesn’t understand the mentality of spending everything, including your future, to buy “a palace.” He calls them ” these be-a-u-tee-ful palaces.” When he returned from WW II and married my mother, they labored together to build a Frank Lloyd Wright-style home on a paid-for piece of property on a lake in Michigan. He had a 35-mile commute into Detroit to his teaching job, but it was all worth it to them. They hand-built the place, and it never had a mortgage. Years later, he confided in me that the materials for the house had cost $ 14,000 and the acreage was bought for $ 4800 after they had saved up the money for it, and he said, ” But don’t tell anybody. I’m embarassed that we spent so little on the materials. I don’t want the family to think that you were raised in a ‘ cheap ‘ home. ” I told him he should be very proud of what he accomplished. But the point is, people used to come over and ooh and aah about the “luxury” home we had. In truth, it was beautifully designed and built, but the square footage was only 1500 sq. feet, and it had a one-car garage. We never worried about losing the home, or the ability of mom and dad to pay our family’s bills when we were growing up. Different standards of “excellence” and “beauty” in a home. Not concepts that Mr. Thain or today’s McMansioners would understand. Perfection can come riding in a homebuilt boat at sunset watching the ducks land on the lake, or it can come in a $ 68,000 credenza. Which will give the best memories ?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:46:15

A reasonable prediction….perhaps.

“China is going to suffer even more than the United States. At least in the short run. America will lose its position in the world. The dollar will lose its status as the world’s reserve currency. Americans will be beaten up - first by deflation, then by inflation. When it is over, they will be poorer, wiser, and probably better people… With a little luck and good leadership, maybe they can sink into a graceful post-imperial poverty…followed by genuine prosperity.” ~ Daily Reckoning

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 07:08:30

“China is going to suffer even more than the United States.”

It’s no secret that the US took the worst hit in the GD, despite (or because of) being the strongest exporter in the world. Must be just a little bit concerning to the Chinese.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 11:28:24

Because of.

Read my post above about the consequences to the UK v/s US.

You have an entire economy built around exporting to the US+EU+aux.countries that is getting dismantled.

Same thing happened to the US in 1873 and GD1.

 
Comment by denquiry
2009-01-24 00:59:51

“China is going to suffer even more than the United States.”
————————————————————————–
I don’t think so. If china feels as if they have been stiffed by DC pols/wall street boyz they will just take taiwan and call things even.

 
 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-01-23 07:10:45

…sink into a graceful post-imperial poverty..

wtf is with this “Imperialist” bull$h*t?? Man that pisses me off..

Sometimes I think we oughta rip the world a new one so they know what American Imperialism would actually feel like.

Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 09:33:02

Down here, at Uncle Sam’s Recruiting and Stop Loss Center, do we have a Deal for YOU joeyinCalif !

Army
Airborne
Airborne Ranger
Special Forces
Marine
Marine force RECON
Navy
SEALS
Air Force
B-52 Pilot (todays house Special)
Coast Guard

Want to rip someone a new one? You name it, we’ve got it!

Just sign our handy dandy contact, Grab a Gun and Have some Fun.
** Age, prior serve and criminal and mental history waivers…no problem :)

Comment by Jim A.
2009-01-23 10:38:10

Actually, B-52 pilot is a pretty hard job to get. There just aren’t nearly as many slots for piloting “big iron.” An acquaintence tried and had to settle for F-16 pilot.

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Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 10:49:32

My childhood romance with B-52’s ended ever since my AF friends Dad lost one with live nukes onboard 9 miles from our house …with me sleeping IN it :(

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2009-01-23 18:32:43

It’s also kind of annoying that they don’t let you fly them unless you are 20 years younger than the aircraft is ;)

 
 
Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 16:54:19

We, the unwilling, led by the unqualified, doing the unnecessary, for the uncaring.

sign me up boys.

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Comment by Bub Diddley
2009-01-23 10:31:29

im·pe·ri·al·ism (ĭm-pîr’ē-ə-lĭz’əm) n.
1. The policy of extending a nation’s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

The US has unquestionably extended it’s authority over other nations, both by territorial acquisition, and by the establishment of economic and political hegemony. Sad that simple statements of fact piss you off.

George Washington: “Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?”

Insert “the middle East” or any other part of the world for “Europe.”

 
Comment by Gadfly
2009-01-23 12:16:29

700+ bases in something like 150 countries? Walks, talks, quacks. WTF kinda KoolAid you slurpin, Jeeves?

 
 
Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 07:33:22

That sounds like a wonderful way to start the year :-(

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 10:20:31

They neglected to say what currency will replace the USD.

The Euro? The Swiss Franc? The Japanese Yen?

What are the strong currencies that are able to step in and replace the USD?

Bueller?

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 17:41:49

If not the Dollar then it will be the Euro… for one simple reason.

ALL oil countries are switching to it for their oil trading. Google it.

(you do know that Iraq was about to switch to the Euro before we invaded, right?)

But that’s still a big “if” at this point.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 06:50:13

“Americans realized that they were trillions of dollars short of funding their collective retirement. The national illusion that capital gains would substitute for savings has disappeared, and Americans are now attempting to save as much as they can. If they all try to save at the same time by shutting down expenditures, of course, the economy will collapse.” ~David P. Goldman, Bank of America.

This is the bottom line. If we consumers cut back on spending and attempt to pile up some savings the U.S. economy will tank. But if we don’t clear our debt and start saving WE will tank! To paraphrase Woody Allen….we are at a fork in the road. One road leads to catastrophe, the other to calamity. “Give us the wisdom to choose wisely.”

Comment by packman
2009-01-23 07:02:32

The sad thing is - it’s bankers like Goldman that caused their own demise, by inflating the debt bubble in the first place.

Sowing the seeds of one’s destruction. It took a while for the trees to grow - now they’ve reached the end of life and are toppling over.

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-01-23 07:25:45

The economy won’t collapse.. the fake, inflated bubblicious economy will simply shrink back to where it belongs.
People cannot save every dollar. They’re lucky if they can save maybe 5 or 10% of their income by cutting everything back to the bare essentials.. +90% must be spent.

At this time, banks want one thing: bailout money… their opinions and predictions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:09:50

the problem for most people is that the fake economy is 90% or so of the total, so if it crashes there isn’t much real economy left. Many took their income/wealth from the fake economy.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-01-23 08:33:01

90% fake? There is no way the true, basic average cost of living is only 10% of income.

It would take some serious thought and calculation to determine an average “fake” lifestyle and compare it to a frugal one. I’m not in the mood but i can offer a simple suggestion.

Subject is a $50,000 per year household… didn’t buy a new home or property recently. I’ll guess they spent $60,000 (!!) per year over the last several years.. got away with it because of easy crredit.. new car, partying it up..
Unless they live in a monastery, my guess is they can cut back to maybe $40-45K spending on the necessities of life. Rent or mortgage, utilities, fuel, food, medical, phone, cable, everything that makes life comfortable…
Cutting back further would be painful, and I doubt many have the discipline to suffer for the purposes of “saving”.

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Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 09:33:52

the fake (virtual) economy is many, many times bigger than everything that is going on in US household spending …

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-01-23 10:09:40

How is that relevant? The thread’s topic is Americans saving their money, and the conjecture that such saving will certainly cause systemic collapse.
I say it won’t for the reasons stated.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-01-23 10:44:28

What nhz said. There’s ALOT of money that never passes through consumers hands. It’s been circling through Wall Street and the Bond market, bidding up asset prices. Alot of that money is disappearing. The defaults start, and poof, the bonds are worth less, and then the stocks of the “financial services industry.” are worth much less.

 
Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 11:55:50

Debt doesn’t look real…until they want to take dollars out of you A$$ :)

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-01-23 12:42:47

Debt doesn’t look real…until they want to take dollars out of you A$$

Well they made sure that it looked real when they sold it to bondholders. Now….not so much.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 12:50:26

Quite an image. :)

 
 
 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-23 20:37:08

+50

 
 
Comment by David
2009-01-23 09:42:33

the problem isnt a lack of savings for retirement. the problem is no savings and giant piles of debt. fortunately the debt problem is easy to workout, massive defaults on mortgages and credit cards. with 3 million foreclosures a year wiping out 500 billion in mortgage debt; the savings rate looks fantastic.

 
 
Comment by eastcoaster
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:20:39

the Dutch are already in so that spells trouble ahead …

Comment by johnny
2009-01-23 11:54:01

lol, nhz.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 17:47:17

“..and trouble behind
Don’t you know that notion
Just crossed my mind.”

 
 
 
Comment by max4me
2009-01-23 07:24:14

Remember how we kept wonder what the nice folks over at HGTV will do since their re estate always goes up shows might now go over soo well.

Seems renting is the new black

http://www.hgtv.com/income-property/show/index.html

Before-and-After Makeovers From Income Property

See the amazing transformations that happen after host Scott McGillivray helps homeowners spruce up a space in their home to make it rent-worthy

Comment by phillygal
2009-01-23 08:07:08

So now the American Dream has been modified: You can still have your McMansion as long as you have a paying (you hope) stranger on the premises.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 08:46:51

Well, now you know the script for the next slasher movie. Title suggestions anyone? How about, “Stranger in the Spare Bedroom!”

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-01-23 09:18:23

“Single White Female.” “Pacific Heights.” “Three’s Company.” All kinds of horror films already exist. ;)

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Comment by samk
2009-01-23 09:22:25

Pacific Heights 2

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Comment by Dave of the North
2009-01-23 09:10:48

“The Tenant only Pays Once”
“Sweeney Tenant”
“The Tenant Chain Saw Massacre”

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2009-01-23 18:36:11

Let’s mix it up:

Lunatic Landlord!
Slasher Super!
The maintenance man always rings twice

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Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 08:32:30

My wife and I occasionally watch HGTV. Its kinda like a “mystery science theater” experience for us. We sit around eating popcorn or whatever making fun of the retards on the tube.

One recent episode (I dont know what show or even for sure if it was HGTV precisely) showed a couple purchasing a $500k turd. They just didn’t “look” like they should be buying a place like that. Young couple, he constantly looked like he was ready to go to work at a pizza delivery place…

Another recent show was a couple who didnt have the money to renovate the downstairs apartment which they intended to rent out to help with the mortgage. My thought, why not just buy a smaller place without the hassle of being a landlord?

In any case, I keep hoping HGTV or one of the other channels will take advantage of the current environment and show episodes were people lose their @$$ on a deal. I’ve been watching those types of shows for a while just waiting for the episodes where instead of a “projected profit” they have a “projected loss”.

They could have a really obnoxious host who makes fun of the people at the end and call the show something like “shocking schadenfreude” ;) or some such thing.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 10:41:07

‘My wife and I occasionally watch HGTV. Its kinda like a “mystery science theater” experience for us. We sit around eating popcorn or whatever making fun of the retards on the tube.’

HAHAHAHAHA! I LOVE Mystery Science Theater! Why, I just watched part of ‘Egah’ last night! This big cave-man galoot kidnaps a gal and runs her into his cave along with her dad, and she shaves his hairy chin…ahhhh. Quality stuff.

Anyway, so far the HDTV shows do not make me laugh. They only make me grouchy and scream at the teevee. I can only hope that your genious ideas about shows showing weeping would-be flippers and ’shocking schadenfreude’ episodes come to pass.
Oh, that would be sooooo delightful.

Comment by Seattle Renter
2009-01-23 15:46:24

Someone needs to do “Flop this House!”

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 18:01:08

The closest show I can think off is “Holmes on Homes” where Mike Holmes goes to people’s homes that were torn apart for remodeling and never finished while the contractor skipped town.

Every show is stories of FBs who started their projects with no contracts, no architects plans, and too much money paid upfront while house is completely gutted and unlivable and the original contractor is con artist.

Good show actually.

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 18:07:48

Oh, and I forgot. He then fixes them. It makes “Extreme Home Makeover” look the maudlin crap it is.

Holmes is my kind of hardass. He pulls no punches is telling the FBs they f’d up. Then fixes their houses as good as any episode of “This Old House.”

 
 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 10:58:15

NAR must have them by the NADS

 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 13:59:18

I think it was housing doom where they posted a video from HGTV where a lady in Florida was getting a reappraisal on her home (to borrow against it) and they decided it was a million dollars.* And she was screaming and jumping around like she had won a million dollars instead of the right to take on a million in debt. That was the whole show. It was weird.

* I saw it a while ago, so could be misremembering the exact figure.

 
 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-01-23 20:41:06

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2009-01-23 07:24:59

“… Americans are now attempting to save as much as the can. If they all try to save at the same time by shutting down expenditures, of course, the economy will collapse.”

The is when those few who were saving while the many were spending get to buy up assets on the cheap.

The beat goes on…, and cash remains king.

Comment by eastcoaster
2009-01-23 07:31:06

My spending habits haven’t changed one iota. Still saving, still spending the same. Every now and then I get a big ticket item (or a vacation). I can’t imagine people who are seemingly unable to save ever really changing their habits much. Case in point - I know a married couple who are both out of work. Have been for months. Yet every night - 7 nights a week - they are drinking at their favorite bar and ordering out for dinner. Can’t imagine how they’re paying for it. They are trying to short sell their house. Only hubby’s getting unemployment (he got laid off, wife quit her job - stupid). But their social life remains unchanged.

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 08:01:43

the economy will collapse

Since the economy is there to serve the individuals who compose it, if savers is what we decide to be then an economy that reflects that isn’t collapsing but only adjusting to our collective wants.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 08:08:39

Ha! Remember that you are a Consumer!

Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-23 12:11:05

On the Financefront - 2009

“I could ‘a been someBODY!”

” I could ‘a been a CONSUMER!”

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-01-23 12:44:33

“And then Mr. Paulson told me it’s not my decade… NOT MY DECADE.”

 
 
 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-01-23 08:25:45

As I said last year, before this super-recession/semi-depression is over, Americans will learn to save 5%-10% of their income again, just like in the 80’s, before the credit bubble inflated in the 90’s.

It’s all good in the end.

Comment by Carlos Cisco
2009-01-23 11:14:12

A majority of the population has never learned how to live on what they earn let alone save. Your optimistic forecast assumes incomes will exceed outgo; only a deflation of GD proportion will effect that.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 08:50:26

My goal for 2009 is to buy every non-consumable that I expect to need in the next decade.

I already got a flat panel digital TV a month ago, and was planning to go with a converter box for the second TV, but I might check out prices at bankrupt Circuit City.

New roof, solar panels. New hot water heater (old one 18 years old, and making noise). New dryer (at least 25), new washer (15, not energy efficient), new kitchen range (15, electronic ignition no longer works), new microwave (15, buttons broken). Basement rehab. New desktop computer (at 8 years old, slower and slower). New suit to keep in the closet, in case someone dies.

I was planning to keep the 12-year-old car another six years, and then with the kids gone go back to living car-free. But I might consider a later model used car trade in if it’s cheap. I would consider a new bicycle, if bicycle theft were not out of hand.

Some of this stuff could have waited a few years; others is a few years past when I would have replaced it (the roof has already leaked), but I was waiting for the recession.

The problem is that I hate having to deal with all of this, as it takes time out of my one and only life. But perhaps I can get it all over with and not have to buy a damn thing for another 15-20 years..

Comment by lavi d
2009-01-23 09:54:09

…and not have to buy a damn thing for another 15-20 years..

My hero!

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 10:25:27

Save your time and avoid Circuit City.

See the Consumerist for reasons why.

Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 10:30:16

Well, after stopping by Circuit City, I’d have to agree. They’re liquidating, with no possibility of returns, and are still charging more for a 19″ TV than Costco is for a 22″.

I was ready to buy a 37″ before X-mas, but what Circuit City was willing to offer was no money down, not a lower price. Bought that one at Costco too.

I guess Costco is where cash is king.

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Comment by wolfgirl
2009-01-23 10:25:34

That sounds like a good plan. The only noncomsumable item on my list is going in with daughter to replace her dryer when it dies. It’s decades old nd was her grandfather’s. She bought his house furnished when he died at an extremely reasonalbe price. My dryer died a couple of years ago. I refushed to replace it. I dry outside when I can and on drying racks when I can. Daughter lives nextdoor, so I use her dryer when I really need to.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 11:15:06

Wait ’til you get to retirement age, and whenever you buy a so-called durable good you realize it’s probably the last one you’re ever going to need.

A new washer, dryer and water heater should do it for us. :-)

Don’t worry, we’re not looking up Dr. Kevorkian’s phone number. Right now, life is good.

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Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 12:27:30

The trouble is, that was my idea from the start. I figured if I took the trouble to buy something, I could cross if off the list, and not have to worry about it any more. So I hate having to replace things.

Perhaps one more round of work in the house, and then it’s off to a furnished apartment complete with a super before more work is required!

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-01-24 05:16:01

We just replaced our decades-old dryer with a nice-new gas one. The old one came with the house. We’ve also replaced the oven, dishwasher, water heater and linoleum when they wore out. All for cash, at good enough or super-cheap prices. Cash is king. And queen.

Just did order a new desk-top computer from HP. It’s being custom-built and they threw in a wireless mouse, a wireless keyboard, free shipping, and $ 250.00 off the going price for a cash deal. I think we got about $450.00 worth of doodads and discounts. It has as much memory as we’ll need in a lifetime ( after we lose ours ), and their fastest processor, so I think we’ll be okay.

We would also like to buy a used laptop. Any suggestons on a good model ? We have no idea of what to get.

 
 
Comment by Gadfly
2009-01-23 12:21:27

I hope when I die I do it at an extremely reasonable price, too. ;-)

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Comment by MrBubble
2009-01-23 10:57:30

Bike theft is getting rampant here in SF. Old roommate had two stolen in the last month: one at the Montgomery BART and one in SOMA. I carry a kyptonite and a cable, but if you leave anything decent out after 1 AM, it will be gone gone gone.

Another anecdotal observation: it seems that whole alleys in SF are being converted to de facto homeless enclaves and they are packing them in under 101. Food pantry attendance is also up 3X.

The rains finally come in SF. Bad for the bicyclist sans auto…

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 11:13:33

sounds like the Netherlands, including the rain.

old joke (from about 20 years ago already): the police is starting a campaign to combat bike theft. Officers are no longer allowed to break out laughing when you come to the police station to report your bike as stolen.

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Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 12:03:24

I’d sell the kids

and go with the second flat panel TV ;)

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 12:04:08

Cash is a little more portable.

 
 
 
Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:27:41

Report from the local TV news last night….

Apartment that went condo still has no separate meters for water so pay the water bill to the city out of HOA dues. Half of units are not paying, so the HOA is not paying the water bill… so, the city shut off the water.

Wonder what that will do to the property value.

Comment by peter a
2009-01-23 08:00:57

I dont know AZ law, but in California once the water is shut off you have three days or you must vacate the home.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 09:24:32

They were able to get the water turned back on after they promised to make payment… We’ll see.

 
 
Comment by cactus
2009-01-23 08:53:51

“Half of units are not paying, so the HOA is not paying the water bill… so, the city shut off the water.’

Thats funny !!! I used to own a Townhome with no individual water meters, never again !!

Comment by reuven
2009-01-23 09:59:49

I laughing to myself because back in 2002 or so, I joined a group of angry HOA people who were blogging that HOAs were a ticking time bomb. Until recently, folks would say “You need HOAs to keep property values up”. They’ll find out that the exact opposite is true.

(I’ve never bought property in an HOA-ruled community, but I did sue one once. It caused everyone in the 16-member HOA to have to kick up money for a legal defense because they lacked adequate insurance.)

Comment by TPS reports
2009-01-23 10:57:51

Have you ever made a single dollar in your life as honest work? It seems your only source of income is scouring the paper looking for someone to sue.

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Comment by reuven
2009-01-23 11:34:26

I never signed a contract and then cried to the Government to get me out of it, like millions of Americans have done. Why don’t you go after those people, instead of patriotic Americans like me?

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 12:27:51

Boy reuven, you’ve been catching the flak here the last couple days. I don’t get it.

 
Comment by TPS reports
2009-01-23 12:28:21

I seem to remember a post about you suing over a help wanted add looked like a pattern to me.

 
Comment by TPS reports
2009-01-23 13:58:15

P.S. Reuven, don’t bother going to the courthouse to file a suit against me, since I may have hurt your feelings. I’m not worth suing.

 
Comment by jane
2009-01-23 15:07:13

OK - so what is one supposed to do?

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and all that cheerio.

There are some violations that are so flagrant that unless you address them, you yourself have failed in your moral duty. NOT to address them gives tacit consent.

I also look askance at the overly litigious nature of our society. Derives from the oversupply of lawyers, methinks.
However, if counterparties do not live up to HOA agreements — if corporate entities engage in flagrant violations of Federal law — what is one supposed to do? Wink and nod?

Oh. I get it. It’s not a violation until it happens to YOU.

 
Comment by TPS reports
2009-01-23 17:11:10

It appears Reuven does it as a source of income from cruising the classifieds. If it is a criminal offense it should be prosecuted as criminal. Reuven makes it a civil because his feeelings are hurt (or seees an opportunity to game the system) and takes monetary judgements that harm large numbers of people that are not involved in the supposed wrongdoing.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:32:23

CNBC this morning they are having a round-table of experts and they’re talking about getting the debt flowing again. One brings up the fact that households really need to delever, and is getting the debt flowing again really the answer. SO, a discussion starts to turn somber with stuff about government replacing the consumer, but how long can that last, then defaults the way to delever households…

And guest host jumps in with, let’s not let this spiral into negative. We’re going to do what is necessary to get debt flowing again, so let’s focuse on that….

Ignore the man behind the curtains… focus on the lie…

Comment by ella
2009-01-23 09:25:04

Ha, I heard someone on the radio complaining about “socialists” who are getting in the way of borrowing money (I guess with regulations?), when they should clear out of the way of American who want to be in debt. Because debt is a choice. And can be used for the pursuit of happiness.

D*mn those fiscally conservative socialists.

It made me laugh for 2 whole minutes. Thanks, crazy guy!

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-01-23 10:18:56

CNBC=Can’t Nobody Be Certain

 
 
Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 07:37:52

Can someone please explain to me why Realtors charge 6% as comission?

I really do not understand where the number came from and why people put up with it.

Is it the same throughout the country?

Thanks you

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:43:04

Because they can.

They buyers don’t pay, so they hire a Realtor. The Realtor only shows houses that will pay the comission, mostly listed in MLS. SO, as a seller, you HAVE to be in MLS and pay the comission or you will never get your house shown.

Monopoly on buyers.

Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 07:46:07

Monopoly on buyers? Isn’t that kind of illegal?

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:58:26

And the NAR got sued by the DoJ for monopolistic practices for blocking discount brokers from MLS. It was settled by NAR agreeing to never again block discount brokers. Once the crash ends, expect lots of discount brokers offering 2% cash-back to buyers and 4% listing fee for seller. The discount brokers do very little for you, but take only 1% of the comission coming or going.

See Redfish.

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Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 08:12:24

See Redfish.

I googled redfish..came up with a variety of stuff but nothing that looks like a discount broker.

Link?

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 09:27:52

bluprint,

It’s redfin dot com

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 09:40:14

Thanks.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2009-01-23 11:15:45

Realtors do not get the 6%. Not to be defending them, but seriously they do not get that amt. If they are lucky, the person doing the selling/showing etc will get maybe 1,000 or two. I won’t say ‘never’ but I really wouldn’t want that job. During all times But this Bubble, I know many who didn’t make anything for several months, then a few thou or two. then lean times. I know a few real ethical re persons, and I also know a few who I wouldn’t buy a rubber raft from if the flood were coming.

 
 
Comment by bluto
2009-01-23 08:07:17

No, having a monopoly isn’t illegal, attempts to monopolize are. Monopoly cases are long, expensive, and difficult to prove (remember AT&T and IBM’s monopoly cases). Politicians generally don’t go after large groups of voters anyway (a good way of ensuring your opponent will get lots of campaign donations is to attack several million voters income source).

Realtors get their 6% by owning MLS. If there were a competing system their income would be vastly reduced, but someone must build a system, and find a way to get listings on their system because until the new system gets listings, it’s pretty much worthless to buyers. Two big investment banks tried to create something after the advent of the internet (I think they had the backing of a big technology firm). They got nowhere, so it’s going to be a long slow process to beat them.

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Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 08:15:19

Getting listings would be a piece of cake. It is getting buyers to actually buy those listings that is the problem.

Buyers get Realtors, and Realtors on show houses in MLS.

 
 
Comment by mikey
2009-01-23 08:10:35

Monopoly on buyers? Isn’t that kind of illegal?

“buyers” directly or indirectly… PAY for EVERYTHING in an RE transaction.

If YOU had a near total monopoloy on GFs with limitless access to money or credit, would you call it ILLEGAL ? :)

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Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 08:36:47

“buyers” directly or indirectly… PAY for EVERYTHING in an RE transaction.

Actually, the employers of buyers directly or indirectly pay for everything. ;)

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2009-01-23 10:00:20

So what you’re really saying is CUSTOMERS of the employers of buyers directly or indirectly pay for everything? :-) Someone should be sucking up to those people…

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-23 10:06:01

If YOU had a near total monopoloy on GFs with limitless access to money or credit, would you call it ILLEGAL ?

If I had a monopoly on GirlFriends with money and credit, I’d call it heaven.

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 10:19:20

lol. EXACTLY!

 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-01-23 09:53:28

I’ve sold three houses paying $199 to list the property on the MLS and offering 3% to an agent that brings a buyer. Also this leaves me the opportunity to sell the house myself and pay no commission which happened the first time.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-01-23 10:33:41

Ditto. (one house)

There is something to be said for the marketing ability of some realtors who know LOTS of people, but Muir’s approach is the answer, IMO.

 
Comment by samk
2009-01-23 11:12:46

I went the FSBO route, too. Didn’t even get an MLS listing. It took a while to sell (3 months) but I don’t know that a realtor could have helped with that.

 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 10:32:48

How did NYC Realtors manage to avoid MLS? How come those Agents still charge 6%??

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Comment by climber
2009-01-23 09:22:19

As a buyer, if I catch my Realtor(tm) skipping over listings based on the % comission I’m going to press charges.

The best way out of this mess is for buyers to agree to pay their own agents out of their own pockets. Then you write up the contract so that the agent gets paid based on how well the house you finally end up buying meets your needs. 4 bedrooms and 3000 square feet = 100%, 3 bedrooms and 2500 square feet = 50%, Hard price limit of $300,000.

Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 09:35:59

I’m going to press charges

Based on what? If you hire a realtor to work for you as a buyer (which is not what is going on in the typical case) then I suppose you could sue on the contract issue. Although in that case it would make more sense for you, as part of the contract, to preclude the agent from receiving the selling commission since you are now paying him/her instead of the seller paying for that service.

But other than that what do they owe you? The buyer typically is not paying the salary of the realtor. They don’t owe the buyer much of anything.

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Comment by Muir
2009-01-23 10:00:23

There used to be buyers agents in FL until last year.
But climber has no chance of winning a lawsuit against an agent.
That’s just a fact. Legally the agent is required to show all properties regardless of the commission offered by the seller; in practice the agent will not show a property that offers less than 3% to buyers/transaction broker.
Climber may be legally correct but how does climber prove his case? He can’t.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 11:24:07

When so many J6P types have to pay someone to do even a straightforward 1040EZ income tax return, do you really expect them to be able to figure out how to price and advertise their house, and qualify a potential buyer, on their own?

There will always be a need for UHS’s. How long they can continue to charge 6% is all that’s in question.

 
Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 17:08:29

I have seen where it has been claimed that a lot of J6P’s are illiterate. You can’t figure if you can’t read. Go figure.

 
 
Comment by Kim
2009-01-23 11:16:49

“As a buyer, if I catch my Realtor(tm) skipping over listings based on the % comission I’m going to press charges.”

I don’t see how this is even a problem, especially with the internet. I have always choosen the properties I want to see.

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Comment by reuven
2009-01-23 11:38:00

You can’t “press charges”, you option would be to file a civil suit! But be careful! There are folks on the HBB Blog that think it’s wrong when the little guy stands up to the RE industry.

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-01-24 12:24:34

There are folks on the HBB Blog that think it’s wrong when the little guy stands up to the RE industry.

Like who? I commented the other day that I didn’t think there was (typically) any contractual or legal obligation on the part of a realtor to act in the best interest of a buyer (Someone corrected me there is some legal obligation on the part of realtors to not withhold houses), and therefore no legal basis to sue anyone for anything that was being discussed.

But that was speculation regarding contract and/or criminal law, not a commentary about ethics.

 
 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-01-23 10:07:51

By the way, I’ve posted this before but for $129 you can now take the real estate license course at home!!!
Online courses offered but if that’s too stressful a CD version of the course is available.
Upon successful completion of the 63 hour course (Yes, SIXTY THREE hours) you are eligible to take the state exam (an additional 100 bucks)
If you pass (75% passing) you TOO can be an agent.

 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:16:44

in Netherlands commissions are 1-1.5% now (for full service), used to be around 2% when there was a virtual monopoly through some realtor organisations.

Of course it helps that most Dutch realtors can visit properties by bike if they want, and hardly have to drive long distances. The relatively skyhigh prices help too ;(

 
 
Comment by Suffolk_Them
2009-01-23 07:40:00

Trouble in paradise from the Easthampton Star:

Figures for ’08 Are Gloomy

By Kate Maier

(01/21/2009) Real estate reporting agencies have started to come out with market figures for 2008, and it is no surprise that the numbers are down across the East End.

George Simpson, the president of Suffolk Research Service, a data collection company based in Hampton Bays, reported that the median price of home sales dropped 12 percent in 2008 compared to the year before. This was for the Towns of Southampton, East Hampton, Shelter Island, Riverhead, and South­old.

The median price in Southampton dropped almost 14 percent, but total dollar sales there did slightly better than in East Hampton, dropping by 33 percent. The total number of homes sold in Southampton dropped from 1,329 in 2007 to 882 in 2008.

Comment by Suffolk_Them
2009-01-23 07:44:26

And from yesterday:

“I get a lot of calls from the city from people asking me if I have any Madoff houses,” broker Susan Breintenbach said noting the reference to the on-going financial scandal involving hedge fund manager and Montauk resident Bernie Madoff.

http://www.hamptons.com/detail.ihtml?id=6080&apid=12560&sid=27&cid=54&hm=1&iv=1&townflag=

 
 
Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 07:40:45

I drive 7 miles to work, 5 through mixed residential patchworked with strip malls, and the last 2 on the freeway through commercial/industrial. In the 5 mile drive through the mixed residential, I’ve noticed RVs parked in yards. Some for sale, others set up to be lived in.

SO, yesterday I decided to count.
For sale: 2 class A, 1 class C, 2 5th wheel, 1 hard side trailer, 2 pop-up tent trailers, 1 pickup camper.
Being lived in: 1 class C, 2 5th wheel, 1 pop-up (hope they are out of there by summer)

other for sale: over a dozen houses, flat bed truck, large trailer that looks to be for hauling construction equipment, seceral dozen pickups/SUVs.

It seems to me, EVERYONE in this part of town is trying to unload assets.

Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 07:48:25

It sounds like the HOA people aren’t doing their work!!!
I would never like my neighbors to have a trailer parked in the fron of the house.
There’s just one word to describe it: TRASHY!

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 08:00:13

I live in a part of town built in the 70s. No HOAs.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-01-23 09:04:56

This begs the question, is it better to live with a HOA or to freeball it?

I lean toward distrust of any HOA, even with the downside potential of creative artwork/yardwork, cars on blocks, and trailers in yards …

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Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 09:43:29

I agree. Around here an HOA is an exception not a rule, although there are subdivision/neighborhood covenants.

 
Comment by Ex-Arizonan
2009-01-23 11:38:03

It’s a mixed bag.

I’ve lived in two HOA neighborhoods. (still do now). Both were pretty small neigborhoods with reasonably laissez-faire HOAs. In this situation the HOA has been pretty beneficial actually, maintaining a neighborhood pool and whatnot.

I think they get to be a problem in big “mega” developments because you’re statistically more likely to attract some power-hungry assholes who will make everyone miserable. My father-in-law was prevented from building the shed he wanted by some of these pricks and so now he hates them altogether.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 10:47:13

I live in the forest. Me and the frogs and a couple opossums formed a council to complain about those as*shat raccoons and their tacky, unacceptable ways. We were going to set up covenants and measure their mailboxes and complain about their color schemes and everything but then a coyote came by and tried to eat some of the council members, so we all had to run away and that was the end of that.
It’s always sad to see a good idea go awry, isn’t it?
* shakes Olyhead sadly *

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 10:53:56

Seriously, though, I would HATE having an association telling me what I could do. Now, I’m not saying I’d elect to park an oil-leaking junker in front, pee in the bamboo thicket*, throw noisy parties **, paint my house bright pink, hang up those annoying little decorative flags, and so forth, but just being TOLD not to would seriously chap my hide.

*Actually, I often elect to do that one.
**Okay, that one, too.

 
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-01-23 11:37:22

Bingo. In the words of the late Edward Abbey, “You ain’t free unless you can brew your own beer and pee off your own front porch.”

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 13:30:52

“You ain’t free unless you can brew your own beer and pee off your own front porch.”

Did he really say that!? I knowed I liked the man and his words, but now I LOVE him! That’s total wisdom, there!
And it means I am very ‘free’, as well.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 14:55:55

“And it means I am very ‘free’, as well.”

I am now stuck with the vision of Oly chugging a beer and hanging her butt over the porch railing at the same time.

 
 
 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-23 10:38:19

It seems to me, EVERYONE in this part of town is trying to unload assets.

Assets? Aren’t these more properly defined as “toys”?

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-01-23 21:53:11

So it seems I’m not the only knucklehead counting the road-side sales. My commute mirrors your’s - mixed residential/commercial for about 9 miles. Cars, trucks, 4-wheelers, boats, rv’s , jet skis, tractors, motorcycles, trailers, golf carts on the roadside with for sale signs.

The average number of “for sale” toys is about 18, or one every half mile. These things usually disappear in a couple of weeks - sold or repo’d…who knows…and new ones come along to replace them.

This is in somewhat rural Southern MD.

 
 
Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 07:43:45

As I mentioned a couple of days ago, my company will lay off probably 20% of its workforce or so. I work for a semiconductor company, and I talked to a couple of my foreign friends that work with me with H1 visas. It is a scary, scary situation for them; they said they have to leave the US within a couple of weeks after being laid off.

I wonder if we will be hearing about massive migration of H1 workers back to their home countries due to current lay-offs.

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 08:05:56

I worked for Compuware in 2002. They shut the Colorado Springs consulting office as MCI/WorldCom, HP, and everyone else was letting go of contractors.

They gather us in a room and say, you’re all getting 1 month severance, goodbye.

One of the H1Bs asks, what about H1Bs? Oh, don’t worry, you’ll also get the plane ticket home.

The look in their face was like they had just received a death sentance.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 10:56:41

I know a lot of these people who bought houses.

Good luck selling that beast remotely when you can’t even enter the country!

Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 17:15:22

being free is only a plane flight away. H1b is looking better all the time.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 17:43:04

Yeah, good luck trying to get that loan back.

Oh, and loans not being paid is called, you guessed it, deflationary!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 08:12:48

Expect applications for marriage liscenses to skyrocket.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-01-23 10:47:31

I have a close friend who would be in that situation.

Another six months and he might be ready to pop the question, but if his GF was laid off tomorrow, not so sure he’d be able to do it…that’s tough.

 
 
Comment by climber
2009-01-23 09:24:59

I’m in semiconductors too so far it’s only citizens who have been laid off. The H1’s have not been hit yet. No big mystery there as I see it.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-01-23 09:39:26

Maybe Rajiv will just cash in his 401K, mail the keys to the bank, sell everything else he owns and head back home.

Comment by Brett
2009-01-23 10:08:47

I feel for them; think about it. I have coworkers with kids in school and stuff. How can you just pack everything and leave everything behind in just 10 days?

what are the supposed to do? sell their homes? cars? furniture? pack? and get their kids out of school in a couple of weeks?

That’s pretty inhumane to me.

Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 11:25:28

Umm..maybe he should have thought about that when he came over on a temporary work visa instead of an immigration visa.

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Comment by In Colorado
2009-01-23 12:06:10

Yeah, but the hope of the H1-B is to eventually get the coveted Green Card.

But it does blow my mind that they bought houses.

As to “having to leave in 2 weeks”, they could stay behind and I doubt the the INS (or whatever its called these days) would ever darken their door. 20 million illegals can’t be wrong after all.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:52:07

As I understand it (and I’m no lawyer here), these rules are actually left deliberately lax so that they permit virtually any interpretation.

The rule as I understand it is that they MAY get deported if the INS so desires if but it’s all left loosey-goosey, etc. And if they get another job even after two weeks, this may or may not be a problem.

It’s all very Al-Capone-ish (remember? he got tagged for tax fraud not crime?)

 
 
 
Comment by nycjoe
2009-01-23 15:25:10

I know a pair from England, perhaps they have green cards but could be H1-B, like some of my wife’s other friends. Anyway, she got laid off as an architect and now they’re packing up (with one tot, and one on the way), sold the apartment, and running to Barcelona. But not sure they know about the bubblicious environs there yet. Big shakeout, eh?

Same sort of thing could happen to us, I guess.

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-01-24 05:32:04

That’s exactly what my daughter’s so-called fiance’ did in Sept. He was an H-1 who had worked for Fannie Mae. She unwisely put a fancy car he had wanted in her name against all parental advice. True love = stupid decisions. Been there myself. Anyway, she took care of the problem, got the car refinanced into payments she could afford thru her credit union, and got a big dose of reality. You know, maybe that car purchase wasn’t such a terrible thing after all. She told me now she knows why I steadly refused to cosign anything for her. Ever.

 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 07:50:53

In the interest of nonpartisan politics, THIS is a Democrat I wouldn’t mind getting to know better…….. :)

The new babe in town:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01232009/news/politics/dave_picks_gillibrand_as_liberal_dems_ho_151502.htm

Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-23 09:26:34

Can she see the Adirondacks from her backyard?

 
Comment by cougar91
2009-01-23 09:38:06

Blano, aren’t you cheating the HBB gals by eyeing this newest Senate dish? Or you given up on the HBB gals already?

Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 10:12:44

“Or you given up on the HBB gals already?”

They’re ignoring me. Just like the gals around these parts. I can take a hint. :)

Comment by Sagesse
2009-01-23 10:26:09

Maybe it would help not to look at women as objects.

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Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 14:40:28

“Maybe it would help not to look at women as objects.”

If you actually knew me, you’d know what BS that is.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2009-01-23 12:10:30

Hey, gals, how about it? What’s the matter with you?

Heck, Blano, I dunno what’s the matter with some women these days. Like this one lady I know said, “I don’t want him unless he’s gonna hold my hand down in a fryin’ pan.” Lotta chicks wouldn’t recognize gold if it was shoved up their posterior. Same for guys, too.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 13:18:32

‘Like this one lady I know said, “I don’t want him unless he’s gonna hold my hand down in a fryin’ pan.”

Really?
And did you hold her hand down in a frying pan, to test the assertion?

Look, why don’t we all just agree on this: ‘Everyone, with or without b00bs, is stupid.’

I’m sure I’m correct, here. And look! I’ve saved us a grumpy tangent!

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 13:26:07

‘I’ve saved us a grumpy tangent!’

But now I think; whyever would I want to do that? Why, my middle name is ‘tangent’! Also ‘Ann’. So, in order to start it all up again, I’ll say this:

‘Boys are dumb’.

*runs away laughing and skipping annoyingly*

 
Comment by ella
2009-01-23 14:13:12

‘Like this one lady I know said, “I don’t want him unless he’s gonna hold my hand down in a fryin’ pan.”

What!!!?

Oh, wait, was she pining for the Pancake Boy? When he was tragically eaten by Piggy Wiggy, it really left a void for some young girls. Tragic way to cope with the pain, though.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 15:04:28

Ya got me, Palmy. I dunno. Although a good friend of mine (older female) did say that in her opinion with men it’s about looks, and with women financial security. And maybe the whole “bad boy” thing sometimes too.

 
Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 17:21:11

Like this one lady I know said, “I don’t want him unless he’s gonna……..HELOC.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 19:50:54

The older I get, the less I understand women.

 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 11:00:47

Turns out Caroline was balling some guy at the N.Y.Times, don’t know who, but hey she is a Kennedy and comes by it honestly. That plus the Gov. was quoted as saying she just didn’t have the qualifications. I give the guy credit, he has really pissed off the left wingers.

Comment by desertdweller
2009-01-23 11:25:08

wmbz, really. Seriously.

As a someone more to the left of center, I wasn’t ready for CK, but really, it would seem all folks/all sides are and have been cozying up for quite some time.
Keep blathering on about
“but its “clintons” fault”. Sheesh. Insert name.

Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 13:37:13

wmbz, really. Seriously.

It was on a radio news report this morning… ‘Sources’ close to the family, private personal matter type of thing, but leakers always leak. That plus tax issues etc. The names will come out at some point.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-01-23 16:34:51

It was Pinch Sulzburger wasn’t it?

 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 11:32:46

Do Caroline’s politics lean hard left? Her dad’s politics certainly weren’t.

“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”

Sounds like something Bush or Cheney would say. Notice JFK didn’t say “our liberty.”

Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 11:49:34

“Do Caroline’s politics lean hard left”?

I don’t have any idea, but a safe guess would be more than likely, not that it really matters, she doesn’t vote,according to her reported record. The N.Y. Gov. made his discussion and that’s that.

As always I think the politics are very boring, same old same old.

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-01-23 12:20:38

Both sides will appeal to J6Ps patriotism to pursue their agenda. That is SOP, from Athenian democracy to Nazi Germany.

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Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 11:51:59

“Turns out Caroline was balling some guy at the N.Y.Times”

Kennedy is as Kennedy does.

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-01-23 11:42:02

Check out her congressional website. She has a section on 2nd Amd. rights, showing a close-up photo of her cradling a side-by-side shotgun.

Comment by phillygal
2009-01-23 13:26:57

Palin Lite.

 
Comment by Pullthetrigger?
2009-01-23 21:55:24

Link? I’d love to see that picture. :)

 
 
Comment by Gadfly
2009-01-23 12:37:36

“Know”? As in the biblical sense? Bleeeeeeechh!!!

Anyway, you’re too late–AIPAC got to her 1st. She’s making noises about a blockade of Iran. Got war?

New boss . . . same as the old boss . . . .

 
Comment by hunkydory
2009-01-23 15:39:04

I’d like to poll HER electorate…

…(ducks)…

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:02:57

One of my best friends just lost his job. What’s so annoying is the company just “expanded” into a new office. If they had stayed in the old joint, they’d be better prepared for this…

What does every stupid damn company do this?

Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 08:12:18

We moved to a bigger office, for less money!

With the glut of office space, we were able to get a bigger/better place in a brand new building, easier commute for most employees (right on the freeway vs. 5 miles off the nearest freeway), for less money. We used to fight over 2 conference rooms. Now we have 4. We used to have out of town visitors share office space with others, now we have visitor offices. Our server room is twice the size. Network is better.

Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:18:23

No, I got that, Darrell.

This company was fine where they were. They were in a marginal neighborhood in Boston, but wanted to “move up.”

Well, they shot themselves in the foot. I bet they could have survived the bust in their old location, but will now be BK in 09.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 08:32:51

Muggy, are you sure your company isn’t paying less for their new space?

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Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:54:41

Bill, not my company… I don’t know the details. All I know is that my friend said months ago that it was totally unnecessary, but that brass wanted “a nicer place.”

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 08:58:16

Holy jeebus, in my response to my one friend’s jobless announcement (sales), my other friend (asst. city attorney) responded and said his head is on the block, too.

This sucks. I’m going to find some mortgage brokers today and kick them in the nuts.

 
Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-01-23 09:33:16

“This sucks. I’m going to find some mortgage brokers today and kick them in the nuts.”

If we have to raise money for your bail won’t that be a bailout? :D

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 10:08:01

“If we have to raise money for your bail won’t that be a bailout?”

No need, I’m good with the cops and judges :smile:

Ball-kicker on the loose!

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 10:56:33

‘If we have to raise money for your bail won’t that be a bailout? ‘

Yeah, but THIS bailout would actually be worth it. :)

 
Comment by Skip
2009-01-23 11:27:33

I find that most companies tend to move closer to where the president lives.

 
 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 08:12:54

at least the bigger companies do, so they can bargain for bigger bailouts. Small companies get no bargains, so they make usually smarter decisions.

 
Comment by rusty
2009-01-23 10:21:00

I worked for a company like this. Spent millions for us to move, then laid off 30% of the workforce. They went belly up about 2 years later.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-23 12:13:44

Yah, like ebay. Spends bazillions for “Bill Me Later” and some Scandinavian classified websites, then lays off a bunch of people.

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 08:17:38

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — U.S. companies are reducing dividends at the fastest rate in half a century, squeezing investors who depend on the payouts more than ever to boost returns.

Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 08:39:33

Right. For those who thing stocks are cheap relative to dividends and profits, let’s see what dividends and profits are like when the recession really gets rolling, say 2Q 09.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 09:45:26

I was going to say Q3 because that’s when they report on Q2 but your point stands. :-)

 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 08:29:18

On Wednesday, I’m listening to one of the cable news channels while driving to the store (XM radio) and I catch the news event where The One signs an executive order banning lobbyists from moving directly to the govt (gotta wait two years) and govt folks from moving directly to a lobbying career (gotta wait until he leaves office). I thought, “Wow, that’s a break with the past.”

Then the VERY NEXT DAY The One decides to make not one but TWO exceptions to that order! So is it even worth the paper it’s written on?

Carter II indeed.

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-23 12:15:00

Yep, this is a Carter administration, fer sure.

 
Comment by Gadfly
2009-01-23 12:50:21

“Hello, America. It is my unhappy duty to report to you that the ‘Messiah’ has failed.”

–US President (played my Morgan Freedman) in the movie “Deep Impact”

” . . . it is only prudent that we now take cautionary steps to ensure the continuation of our way of life, to guarantee that there will be enough of us left to rebuild a new world . . . So, in the soft limestone of Missouri, we’ve been preparing a network of immense caves, and they’re almost finished. And we can put a million [rich] people in them. And that million people can survive there, underground, for 2 years, until the air clears and the dust settles.

Now, the cave is more than a dormitory. It’s our new Noah’s Ark.”

–same US President, same movie

 
Comment by AdamCO
2009-01-23 14:19:17

That’s the talking point, and it upsets me. The whitehouse hasn’t commented.

On the other hand, Bush had over 100 lobbyists as “regulators,” so it is an improvement.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 14:23:09

True, but the Obama administration is only 4 days old.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:00:38

2 vs 100. The parallels are amazing! :lol:

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Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 08:40:16

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — Schlumberger Ltd., the world’s largest oilfield-services provider, said fourth-quarter profit fell 17 percent as a collapse in petroleum prices slowed exploration spending by customers….

Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 08:45:58

If Exxon and Chevron break down, look out below. XOM and CVX report next Friday. Has anyone looked at FITB? It’s a beautiful thing.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-01-23 08:52:48

Has anyone looked at FITB? It’s a beautiful thing.

Ugh.

That’s my bank (via its acquisition of smaller regional banks).

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 08:59:52

I watch the FITB chart every day.

“Beautiful thing” in your opinion as a screaming buy, or a death spiral??? I was thinking buy.

Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 09:29:00

Beautiful in the sense that the descending triangle was an expression of impending doom and then it doomed.

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Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 09:41:47

Gotcha. Thanks.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 09:47:36

Looking at it again, I’m having trouble seeing the descending triangle itself. I just see the overall downward trend. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction?? Thanks again.

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 10:34:56

Successive lower highs from Sept 19 onward. Support line around 7.50. Smaller and smaller swings — contraction. Volume expansion as she pops.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-01-23 10:44:35

Thank you!!!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 09:08:55

CNBC

“‘Bad Bank’ Regains Favor As Solution for Toxic Debt”

“Analysts say both Wall Street and Washington are largely resolved to creating a government-run entity to buy troubled assets from banks and other struggling financial institutions. It’s just a matter of how and when—and some say, the sooner the better.”

I say, great idea. We do it RTC style. Chapter 11 style where we buy up the assets at the price needed to keep depositors whole. Equity holders get zip. Bond holders, if they agree, get stock in exchange for bonds. If they do not agree, chapter 7.

NO WAY to we buy this toxic garbage at a price that let’s the Wall Street crooks continue to operate as “normal”.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 09:22:33

The Netherlands is also officially considering a Bad Bank; probbly other EU member states are working on the same ’solution’. I’m sure they will buy up the bad assets from the banksters at far above their real value.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-01-23 09:09:23

Troubled OneUnited Bank in Boston didn’t look much like a candidate for aid from the Treasury Department’s bank bailout fund last fall.

The Treasury had said it would give money only to healthy banks, to jump-start lending. But OneUnited had seen most of its capital evaporate. Moreover, it was under attack from its regulators for allegations of poor lending practices and executive-pay abuses, including owning a Porsche for its executives’ use.

Nonetheless, in December OneUnited got a $12 million injection from the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. One apparent factor: the intercession of Rep. Barney Frank, the powerful head of the House Financial Services Committee.

Mr. Frank, by his own account, wrote into the TARP bill a provision specifically aimed at helping this particular home-state bank. And later, he acknowledges, he spoke to regulators urging that OneUnited be considered for a cash injection.

 
Comment by measton
2009-01-23 09:10:55

Bankers, regulators and politicians complain of a secretive and opaque process for deciding which banks get cash and which don’t. The goal of aiding only banks healthy enough to lend — laid out by the Treasury when the program began — clearly seems to have shifted, but in a way that’s hard to pin down and that the Treasury has declined to explain. Part of the problem is that some powerful politicians have used their leverage to try to direct federal millions toward banks in their home states.

“It’s totally arbitrary,” says South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford. “If you’ve got the right lobbyist and the right representative connected to Washington or the right ties to Washington, you get the golden tap on the shoulder,” says Gov. Sanford, a Republican.

Several Ohio banks received funds after Ohio’s congressional delegation complained bitterly about the treatment of Cleveland-based National City Corp., which regulators forced into a merger rather than provide with cash. And in Alabama, the state’s top banking official says a windfall there — five banks are slated to receive funds — is testament to the influence of two powerful Alabama lawmakers who sit on key congressional committees.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:04:34

Thank god this country is a meritocracy with a free market and equal opportunities for all.

Oh wait…

 
 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 09:13:30

“…Just look at the data released yesterday in the US. Housing starts fell another 16 per cent year-on-year in December, to an annualised rate of 550,000 - the lowest rate since records began in 1959. Economists believe there is an excess of about 1.5m homes across America and a natural demand for housing each year of just a tad more. That means supply will not come back into balance with demand until at least the second half of next year, at current building rates….”
LEX

A couple days off to have fun in the woods. I’m going back on my snowmobile, more fun than these markets!

Re: “There will be no inflation without wage increases.”
Wrong. Wage increases come after the inflation.

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 09:19:59

definitely, look at the goldmarket today: it screams inflation.

and of course, outside the US the wage increases are very real.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 09:26:19

There are more like 5 million too many houses. Maybe 10 million too many housing units if we get serious about kicking out the illegals.

Comment by desertdweller
2009-01-23 11:41:50

Just remember that illegals aren’t just from south of us.
People are being processed into the US by the
Visa Waiver program and by being ‘vouched’ for by someone.
Lots and lots of folks from all over the world coming into the US, daily. Multiply that by each and every Customs Entry point.
It isn’t the mexicans/guatemalans,ecuadorans,el salvadorans.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 09:29:17

“Wrong. Wage increases come after the inflation.”

Like the inflation of oil, food, and other commodities the first half of 2008??? I’m waiting for the matching wage increases.

Oh, wait… we just had plunging demand, excess supply, and crashing prices instead.

Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 09:36:05

The oil market is screaming demand now equals supply. The contango is collapsing.

Bonds are telling you inflation is troubling.

Grains are yelling, “got food”

Inflation is a means for the government to lower wages. It is one of the primary arguments for inflationary economics as practiced throughout the world.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 09:39:12

Actually, inflation is the primary mechanism for the government to steal productivity gains, in general.

Wages are only part of the those productivity gains. ;-)

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Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 10:27:32

True

But trying to keep it simple.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 10:34:09

“Everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler.”

- Einstein

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-01-23 10:31:08

Even if inflation comes first how can it be sustained without wage increases. The US is in debt with no savings they can’t increase spending.

Inflation that is the result of low capacity vs demand may create jobs, but inflation that is the result of excess cash being pumped into a system with excess capacity and product can’t sustain/create inflation until that money ends up in the hands of those who will spend it. So far no sign of jobs being created by excess cash. A works program may create jobs but giving banks cash will/has not.

IF oil goes up in price because of the falling dollar, people will drive less and demand will fall. If food and oil go up people will stop spending on electronics clothes and other services creating more unemployment and less consumption.

I think we all agree that inflation will come, we just disagree on when. The FED will try to walk the tight rope but my guess is we will see some wild swings.

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Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 11:06:13

Think Argentina or any of the other 17 banana republics that experienced inflation with 20% unemployment. Lack of confidence in the financial system to repay its debt.

Think in terms of the global picture and not just the US. As demand picks up in the world (Emerging markets economies are already recovering), the US will have to pay what foreign countries are willing AND ABLE to pay. The oil consumption world wide is going to grow by 10% over the next decade no matter what happens in the US. All non renewable commodities are subject to the same supply economics.

The US dollar will maintain its reserve status which inevitably means a large drop in the purchasing power of the dollar.

There are over $11T readily available dollars overseas. That is potentially a lot of buying power.

 
Comment by nycjoe
2009-01-23 15:31:28

Well, we have the most fat poor folk in the world. No doubt they can live off their fleshly savings for a time while prices zoom higher. No doubt that has been priced in by our betters.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 11:10:01

They were all scremaing these thinkgs this time last year too.. and were wrong.

I think markets are starting to assume the bad bank solution is “in the bag”, and that the liquidity will soon be flowing agian.

I truely hope they are wrong.

How will the U.S. population react to a couple trillion losses be transferred to the taxpayer so the Wall Street players can continue to get their multi-hundreds-billions in annual bonuses?

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Comment by bluprint
2009-01-23 09:50:27

I rode a snowmobile for the first time in December in Chugach National Forest in Alaska. It was a lot of fun…I think probably more fun than 4 wheelers. Definately more work. Can’t really ride a snowmobile with a beer in one hand.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 10:59:15

‘Can’t really ride a snowmobile with a beer in one hand.’

Wrong, my good fellow. Maybe you just need more practice?
Why, IIIIII can drive a snowmobile with a beer in TWO hands. :)

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 11:12:28

And you know this from practice? :)

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 11:30:57

Oh, lots of practice! Hahahaah! :)

Not the ‘little flames’ part, that only happened once, of course. Thank goodness. Although I must admit, it was an incredibly stylish effect.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 11:20:19

Oh, and the snow-mobile can even be emitting little flames at the time. True story.
I have a lot of unexpected skills, come to think of it. I should keep that in mind for my next resume’.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 12:31:08

But have you ever printed your resumé on scented pink paper, that’s what I really wanna know? ;-)

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 13:33:13

I’m not answering you, Mr. Man, and that is because I detect mockery.
*reproachful sniff *

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 16:30:53

I was merely channeling Elle Woods. ;-)

 
 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-01-23 11:54:08

Can’t really ride a snowmobile with a beer in one hand.

Mmmm. Beer.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-01-23 12:13:48

SFH construction permits issued in Loveland, CO

2005: 754 permits
2006: 445
2007: 281
2008: 139
2009: 70?

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:11:00

Hoz, we’ve had inflation for the last 20 years and J6P wages stagnated or decreased.

There will be no wage increases. Again. Not until corporate America makes the connection between their workers, their profits and a 75% consumption driven economy.

 
 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 09:30:31

Beware Simple ‘Fixes’ to a Complicated Financial Mess

By Steven Pearlstein
Friday, January 23, 2009

“…

At the same time, rather than using taxpayer dollars directly to recapitalize banks, the Treasury could help banks attract private capital by offering some sort of guarantee of any newly issued preferred stock, much as it has already done for newly issued debt. As payment for its guarantee, the government could demand warrants for up to 49 percent of a bank’s common stock, which could be exercised in the future if and when the stock price recovers. Such a guarantee program would also avoid the market-roiling specter of nationalization, force shareholders to give up a sizable share of a company, and offer taxpayers a reasonable return on their investment and risk-taking.

There is a way out of this mess, if only we have faith in the people chosen to manage the process and the patience to see it through. It will almost surely require the commitment of additional funds beyond the original $700 billion, and it will involve several more rounds of trial and error. But most of all, it will require us to resist the fetching idea that there is a simple, quick and relatively painless way to put a complex financial system back together again. ”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/22/AR2009012203626.html

“… the Treasury could help banks attract private capital by offering some sort of guarantee of any newly issued preferred stock, much as it has already done for newly issued debt….”

Unless the bond holders of WaMu get reimbursed for the government theft, no reasonable bond investor will buy new bank debt when there is government confiscation without due process. Government guarantee or not.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 11:11:17

Government didn’t steal it… the CEO gave it away to the government with a gun to his head… right?

Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 11:25:42

LOL

The bank was liquidated to force congress to pass TARP. In a normal liquidation by the FDIC the bank bond holders get paid back by assets. In WaMu’s case, the FDIC transferred all assets and the liabilities (bonds) went to the sewer. In Wachovia Ms. Bair transferred the assets and guaranteed the liabilities. Wachovia was in far worse shape than WaMu.

WaMu was not insolvent and should never have been liquidated. I had no position in WaMu at the time, but there are a lot worse banks still trading that are in a lot worse shape than WaMu. Bond holders got F’d.

Comment by measton
2009-01-23 12:58:58

WaMu was not insolvent and should never have been liquidated. I had no position in WaMu at the time, but there are a lot worse banks still trading .

Is that based on information the bank gave you or on reality. Since none of us are given any real information how can one know which banks are the worst.

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Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 21:51:20

Bank financials are easy to read! It just takes practice. They are no different than any other companies.

The cost of money borrowed
the profit on the amount loaned out
expenses
good will
and the joke of all time
Level 3 assets = mark to fantasy

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:50:36

“Since none of us are given any real information how can one know which banks are the worst.”

We are all given real info, just stripping it separates the Chanos from the chaff. It is hard to strip.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 09:49:32

Troll Bros…

Just heard a report that the Troll bros are offering a 30yr. fixed mort. @ 3.99%. 720 credit score min., 20%dn. on any of their houses priced @ $417,000.00 & up. They would not say who is underwriting the loans.

Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2009-01-23 09:59:08

I wonder how many people have 83000 dollars lying around?

Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 10:17:50

Not nearly enough, and those that do I would hope will sit on it.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 10:20:22

Those that do aren’t going to be forking out $417K (what a precise number that matches the limit!) for a Troll Bros house.

That house is probably overpriced by a factor of 3.

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Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 17:28:18

Just wait…prices will be dropping. “It will always be cheaper next year” is the new mantra replacing the “Now is a great time to buy.”

 
 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 11:05:29

maybe the Europeans are underwriting? in my country you can still get 30yr fixed loans without ANY downpayment for a little over 4.5%. If you are creative you even get free mortgage insurance and more than 100% loan.

 
 
Comment by Ex-Arizonan
2009-01-23 09:50:06

Washington, DC named best worldwide for real estate buys

Forbes Magazine’s Matt Woolsey published an article which ranks Washington, D.C. as the number one best city in the world for real estate investment, ahead of London and New York City, which are ranked number two and number three.

The rankings come from the Association of Foreign Investors in Real Estate, which surveys its 200 members about global investment opportunities. Washington, D.C. ranked highest because of the proposed $1 trillion in government spending. The new programs will need commercial space and new employees will need places to live, so investors are looking for both commercial and residential investment opportunities in the area.

Other US cities besides New York and Washington moved up on the list of places where investors are puchasing real estate, including San Francisco, Los Angeles and Houston, all among the top ten best places for real estate investing around the world. Cities in the Asian Pacific region dropped as investors favor the long-term stability of the US and are fearful that emerging countries may take a harder hit from the global economic crisis.

http://www.examiner.com/x-612-Residential-Real-Estate-Examiner~y2009m1d22-Washington-DC-named-best-worldwide-for-real-estate-buys

Comment by WT Economist
2009-01-23 10:35:45

“Forbes Magazine’s Matt Woolsey published an article which ranks Washington, D.C. as the number one best city in the world for real estate investment, ahead of London and New York City, which are ranked number two and number three.”

Unbelievable. Buy now before the correction really gets going.

The latest quote is that NYC economy entered recession a year later than everyone else, but will catch up shortly.

 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-01-23 11:32:58

Best = most overpriced?

Comment by palmetto
2009-01-23 12:18:23

I’ve been to DC. Personally, I think it is the biggest sh*thole in the US.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 12:26:36

What are you talking about? They have some of the greatest museums on the planet!

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 12:58:31

And free to boot! :)

 
Comment by MrBubble
2009-01-23 15:46:26

Lived in NoVA for 5 years and DC itself for one. Had a blast. Traffic was awful, so I never drove anywhere. Otherwise a pretty livable city. Just had to avoid the pretenders and gov’t sycophants. Now Balmer OTOH, wasn’t pretending to be anything other than a gritty, post-industrial burg, but I had a blast at Fell’s Point and the Block. So many stories…

MrBubble.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:56:14

There’s nothing wrong with govt. sycophants just as long as you:

(a) get on their good side,
(b) suggest that you “may” be useful to them in the “future”, and
(c) let them pick up the tab.

Why! Verily I love both Republicans and Democrats, and why not when they pick up the tab, huh huh huh? :-D

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 09:50:41

“Build up some cash reserves. Got that? Hold Cash! Cash in the mattress. Cash in the bank. Certificates of deposit. Don’t try to get too fancy. Just save some cash where you can get hold of it in case you need it pronto.”

~Byron W. King

Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 10:05:30

As I have mentioned, I do not like the gold market - to easily manipulated - to small.

It is possible that gold is merely reflecting the turmoil in Europe as opposed to American interests. The PIGS are collapsing.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 10:11:37

Add me to the list of people that dislike the gold market for exactly the reason above.

You can’t eat gold so you might as well buy the commodities that you need (or reasonable proxies thereof.)

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-23 10:55:00

gold breaking out of 890.
London liquidations and Banking Nationalizations.
Pound crashing.
Smoking crater forming in US long Bonds.
US market tanking.
—-
There’s no earthly way of knowing
Which direction we are going
There’s no knowing where we’re rowing
Or which way the river’s flowing

Is it raining, is it snowing
Is a hurricane a-blowing

Not a speck of light is showing
So the danger must be growing
Are the fires of Hell a-glowing
Is the grisly reaper mowing

Yes, the danger must be growing
For the rowers keep on rowing
And they’re certainly not showing
Any signs that they are slowing
—–
Prince Ala Walla Willy Wonka could not be reached for comment.

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Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 11:02:49

I think the last few weeks have shown that it is quite tough to do that as an investor, when talking about oil/energy, agri commodities etc.

there is a lot of discussion at the moment about how one can protect against inflation by buying stuff like commodity funds, USO etc. No good options to hedge against the sometimes skyhigh cost of storage, decay etc.

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Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 10:59:06

cash just lost 15% in value over the last few days (relative to gold).

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 16:42:13

Cash also lost a cr@pload compared to shorting. So what’s your point exactly?

 
Comment by denquiry
2009-01-23 17:38:37

cash just lost 15% in value over the last few days (relative to gold).
—————————————————————————–
you will never know until you decide to sell your gold. the gold market, like wall street, has it’s own insiders. the gold price listed is the sell price. should you decide to sell I think you will find that the “buy” price is a lot cheaper than the “sell” price. “Power” is the ultimate commodity and the PTB’s can take your gold at anytime and give you an IOU in exchange. That’s why the govt does not fear a gold bug. when the time comes the PTB’s will crush a gold bug just like a cockroach.

 
 
 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 09:52:30

watching the explosion in the Gold market today I’m waiting for Mr. Geithners announcement that they are starting to withdraw liquidity (they promised to do that quickly when necessary …).

I’m not holding my breath :(

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 14:55:48

Blew through your number of $880. Looks like an uptrend has developed. This will give speculators some heart!

 
 
Comment by oops
2009-01-23 09:56:01

S. Fla. repossessions up 160%, housing starts tumble

More than 26,000 properties in South Florida went back to lenders last year – a 160 percent increase over 2007

In Miami-Dade County 12,059 went back to lenders in 2008, up from 4,539 the previous year.

Broward County 10,072 homes repossessed, up from 3,686 in 2007.

Palm Beach County 4,109 bank-owned properties in 2008, an increase from 1,862 REOs in 2007

“To understand the magnitude of the increase, consider that Broward County alone had as many REOs in 2008 as did the entire tri-county South Florida region for all of 2007,” Condo Vultures principal Peter Zalewski said.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-01-23 09:58:49

Real estate always goes up!

tampabay.com/breakingnews/2009/01/clearwater-home.html

(yes, I was a pyro as a teen)

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 10:10:17

“If stupidity got us into this mess, why can’t it get us out?”

-Will Rogers

 
Comment by Captain Credit Crunch
2009-01-23 10:23:13

Hahaha, I clicked the NAR’s ad above (unchain my house) and modified their letter, below:

I’m writing today to urge you NOT to pass a housing plan. Any such plan will just delay the inevitable price correction in real estate. America doesn’t realize it yet, but LOWER house prices are a huge boon to the economy. We’ll be able to *actually afford* the payments on our own, and we WON’T NEED subsidized interest rates or tax credits. We also won’t be spending 50% of our income on digs. This is what will grow our economy and benefit all Americans.

There is no housing crisis. This is just the aftermath of the REAL crisis in lending and unregulated securitization, which happened 5-6 years ago. Let it pass, because the taxpayers won’t take kindly to being asked to pay for someone else’s Hummer or boat or vacation they HELOC’d.

Signed,

P.S. Ironically this email comes from the National Association of Realtors, who is trying to get me to ask you for any plan that will prop up prices. All they want is a fat commission. I want cheaper digs.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 10:33:26

Delays in Bank Aid Spur Frustration
As Requests Pile Up, Executives Leery Of Treasury’s Silence on Bailout Decisions

A massive backlog of bank applications for emergency federal aid has provoked widespread frustration over how the Treasury Department is allocating rescue funds and raised suspicions among executives that political connections are playing a role, industry officials and regulators say.

The delay is pushing bank executives across the nation to lobby their lawmakers, financial groups and friends within the federal government to try to expedite their requests.

“I think there is a suspicion among a large number of our members that it’s who you know rather than the merits of the application,”…
WaPo

And what else is new, Washington has always been “Who do you know”. And the stimulus package is being fought over which companies will get the free moneys. The companies with the grease will get the first crack. So look on the ‘donors list to congress people’ for the investment opportunities of the next decade. Actually, I will start an ETF for that purpose. NASDAQ: symbol BRIBES

Wadda you think Faster, WMBZ, Voz, Marketmaven?

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-23 19:35:34

FDIC Bonds…..just ship it its TARP’ed.

win/win

 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-23 10:50:17

Imagine that! There’s politics involved in political solutions! Try not to act too surprised at the results:

From WSJ online-

Barney Frank Goes to Bat for Lender, and It Gets an Infusion

Troubled OneUnited Bank in Boston didn’t look much like a candidate for aid from the Treasury Department’s bank bailout fund last fall.

The Treasury had said it would give money only to healthy banks, to jump-start lending. But OneUnited had seen most of its capital evaporate. Moreover, it was under attack from its regulators for allegations of poor lending practices and executive-pay abuses, including owning a Porsche for its executives’ use.

Nonetheless, in December OneUnited got a $12 million injection from the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. One apparent factor: the intercession of Rep. Barney Frank, the powerful head of the House Financial Services Committee.

Mr. Frank, by his own account, wrote into the TARP bill a provision specifically aimed at helping this particular home-state bank. And later, he acknowledges, he spoke to regulators urging that OneUnited be considered for a cash injection.

As President Barack Obama’s team sets about revising the $700 billion TARP program, following last week’s release of the second half of the money, among the issues it faces is widespread dissatisfaction with way the program has been implemented. Treasury Secretary nominee Timothy Geithner, testifying Wednesday at his Senate confirmation hearing, acknowledged “there are serious concerns about transparency and accountability…confusion about the goals of the program, and a deep skepticism about whether we are using the taxpayers’ money wisely.”

Bankers, regulators and politicians complain of a secretive and opaque process for deciding which banks get cash and which don’t. The goal of aiding only banks healthy enough to lend — laid out by the Treasury when the program began — clearly seems to have shifted, but in a way that’s hard to pin down and that the Treasury has declined to explain. Part of the problem is that some powerful politicians have used their leverage to try to direct federal millions toward banks in their home states.

“It’s totally arbitrary,” says South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford. “If you’ve got the right lobbyist and the right representative connected to Washington or the right ties to Washington, you get the golden tap on the shoulder,” says Gov. Sanford, a Republican.

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-01-23 10:55:10

Here’s the link to the WSJ Online discussion of Barney Frank’s pet bailout and what a slice of politics looks like:

http://tinyurl.com/d75axl

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 11:41:57

Banking System Liabilities to GDP:
Eurozone 335% [Est. $41 trillion]
United States 65% [Est. $9.8 trillion]

Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 11:48:33

that sounds really bad; did the Wallstreet gangsters pass all the worthless sh** to Europe, or did they calculate the possible losses in EU real estate?

 
Comment by measton
2009-01-23 12:53:48

Banking system liability

Was this calculated before or after Goldman and Morgan Stanely and others became banks??????? What about Hedge Fund Liabilities. This may all be symantics.

 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-01-23 13:13:11

Any link to back that up? I never thought that the Euro zone besides Ireland, Spain & Netherlands engaged in wild speculation. I know Britain did, but they’re not part of the Euro zone.

 
 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 11:48:09

Got money?

“$140 Million in Texas Multifamily Assets up for Grabs
Mission Capital Advisors LLC, a New York-based loan sale advisor, has been selected to offer mortgage loans secured by 15 recently renovated multifamily properties in Houston and Austin, TX, with an outstanding balance of more than $140 million. The seller is an unidentified. Mission Capital is initially soliciting indicative bids from interested parties in acquiring the defaulted loan, bids which are due Jan. 27. The loans were issued a year ago and mature in February 2010. Note A was issued in the amount of $133 million and Note B was for $9 million and was used for capital improvements. The class B multifamily apartment properties in Houston and one in Austin contain a total of 4,568 one-, two- and three-bedroom apartment units with an average size of 804 square feet. The majority of the properties, which have undergone $7.3 million in upgrades in the past year, offer amenities such as a swimming pool, laundry facilities and covered parking.”
CoStar

Exit Queen playing ‘Another One Bites the Dust’

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-23 13:52:38

always with the Queen…

cant we que up something a little more appropriate?

howz about some:
Garth Brooks, The Dance.
..” I could have missed the pain, but I’d of had to miss the dance.”

everybody still dancing?

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:26:14

15 properties? Wow!

If any of you have been to Houston, you know just how damn big they make “beehives” there.

And 15 of them. Wow.

 
 
Comment by cactus
2009-01-23 11:59:52

Skyworks just laid off 150 these layoff bombs are hitting closer to home. Won’t be long now and we’ll get a salvo here. What can you do but just ride it out ….. and not spend any money and Especially not buy a house.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 12:24:55

That should really help housing prices.

Of course, that would be “inflationary”. LOL

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2009-01-23 14:44:58

Skynet should start hiring soon.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 15:05:49

I’ll be back

 
 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 12:07:26

Even CNBC, which always has a BS reason for stocks to rebound, can’t come up with a reason this time…..

What is up with the 3-4% bounce off bottom for S&P???

Comment by Observer
2009-01-23 12:21:07

Belief that the gov’t will save us with more bailout dollars.

We’ve been told many times now that the bottom was in November. I guess the market knows the PTB won’t let it go any lower because they’ll just print more money and hand it out. Gov’t money is only limited to the amount of ink on the planet.

Once the stimulus “hope” fades, it will be a race to the bottom. The back of the roller coaster car is just now making it’s way to the top before the first drop.

 
Comment by nhz
2009-01-23 12:50:09

maybe the S&P just lifts along with some goldstocks ;)

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 12:16:10

WhooooHOOOOOOO! Lookit this! Front page of my local paper, The Olympian. (which is feeling thinner lately. Ad revenue going away?Oh, and all those staff layoffs…)

‘County home sales mark six-year low’

http://tinyurl.com/at9mzx

‘Year-end data show that 3,175 single-family residences and condos were sold in the county last year, down 24 percent from the 4,180 units that sold in 2007 and down nearly 35 percent from the record sales year of 2006.’

BUT DON”T WORRY! STOP WORRYING!

‘Other encouraging signs for Thurston County include mortgage interest rates that remain at historic lows between 5 percent and 6 percent, and lower inventory levels, which could help to stimulate this year’s housing market, he said. Since the summer, active listings have fallen about 600 units, Jorgenson said…’

BWAHAHAHAHAH! *gasp, gasp for breath * BWAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, gosh, I suffered through several stakeholder meetings on local housing/water stuff and hearing those utter as*shat realtor/builder/developer wh*res, how I HATE them so much; this’d be in in the last few years, and I’d complain about stuff, loudly wonder how they were going to protect water quality whilst building in aquifer recharge areas and wetlands, little ticky stuff like that… I’d question the validity of their lying numbers and buildable lands projections, I heard again and again—’it’s different here! And it doesn’t matter if it isn’t because we want to make lots of money.’

Excuse me, everyone. I have to go have a lie-down for a bit. My head’s about to explode from joy. Can’t have that! I wanna be around to watch the rest of the funnnnn! BWAHAHAHAHAA!

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-01-23 13:39:40

“Other encouraging signs…”

LOL. It’s funny how the encouraging signs are inflationary. Me? I’d say low rates AND increasing affordability are encouraging signs, not feel-good crap about how our home prices are still holding up in the face of still rising defaults and unemployment…

Also, I’ve been meaning to post about the Sunday Oregonian. It feels about 2/3 the size it was just a few months ago, if not smaller. When I grabbed one recently I thought I had grabbed one of the weekday editions that had an extra insert in it. It was very noticeable decrease.

Rage on Oly-G.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-01-23 14:31:19

Prediction: More than 25% of subscription newspapers (not the free rags) will at least end their print versions if not go entirely out of business this year.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 17:22:02

Good. What exactly do they do besides pull stuff off the AP and print it attached to local ads?

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Comment by darrell_in_phx
2009-01-23 18:56:07

But, what happens to AP when there are half as many papers paying them for the articles?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:29:36

They’ll just have to hire the bloggers. That’s life.

The journalists have had a free ride for far too long. Technology is leveling the playing field.

Quality always rises to the top. Look at this blog.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 12:21:44

Moody’s Investors Service on Friday cut its ratings on The New York Times Co (NYT.N) into junk territory, saying declining advertising revenues will continue to pressure the newspaper publisher’s earnings.

Moody’s cut The New York Times three notches to “Ba3,” three steps below investment grade, from “Baa3.” The outlook is negative, indicating an additional downgrade may be likely over the next 12-to-18 months.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-01-23 13:00:06

Has anyone cut Moody’s ratings?

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:34:36

Those wonderful folks who AAA rated those fabulous CDOs? Why would they?

 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2009-01-23 12:31:16

“NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Oil futures rallied 6% in a very volatile session Friday, reversing their earlier sharp losses as U.S. stocks also rebounded from their lows. Crude oil for March delivery was last up $2.44, or 5.6%, to $46.10 a barrel on Globex after soaring to an intraday high of $47 a barrel. The rise is “short-covering ahead of the weekend,” said Kevin Kerr, editor of Global Commodities Alert. ”

The news just gets worse and worse, but oil has rallied 43% from it’s trading lows of just a few days ago. Yeah, fundamentals!

Comment by dude
2009-01-23 15:43:30

A large part of this is the rollover of contract, however, USO was also up substantially.

I agree with Hoz on the inflation/devaluation thing and IMHO oil is one of the best portentious indicators out there.

BTW, we are half way to my target of 60 and only 2 weeks after I called the double bottom.

(pats self on the back)

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 12:31:56

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — Hovnanian Enterprises Inc., New Jersey’s largest homebuilder, could go out of business “absent a miracle” bolstering its equity and cash reserves, bond analyst Vicki Bryan said today. Hovnanian denied it was in trouble.

Hovnanian’s market value has tumbled 98 percent from its peak on July 20, 2005. The builder was last profitable in the fiscal first quarter of 2007. The shares fell 2 cents to $1.63 at 12:57 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The stock hit an 18-year low on Jan. 20.

Comment by whino
2009-01-23 13:10:43

Thank you for that post mrktmaven, its a nice beginning to my weekend. I’ve waited to hear that good news for quite awhile now.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 13:50:52

“Hovnanian denied it was in trouble”.

That’s the 100% GRANTEE! Run for the exits they are toast!

Can’t wait for Sleezer homes, KB along with a few dozen others, to do a face plant off a ten story foreclosed building.

Comment by packman
2009-01-23 18:50:11

Beazer will be the first.

 
 
 
Comment by fred
2009-01-23 12:45:20

From Birmingham craigslist:

Reply to: hous-1004684608@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2009-01-23, 2:38PM EST

Will trade up to 200 ounces of gold for your home on acreage within or immediately around Chilton county Alabama.

Looking for at least 5 acres with a home but will consider acreage without a home.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-01-23 14:47:30

BS alarm going off. Or the guy is nuts.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-01-23 14:02:53

California unemployment rate jumps to 9.3 percent in December; highest level since 1994

Samantha Young, Associated Press Writer
Friday January 23, 2009, 2:09 pm EST

SACRAMENTO (AP) — California’s unemployment rate jumped to 9.3 percent in December, capping a tumultuous year of massive job losses and a housing slump that has struck most of the country.

The jobless rate announced Friday by the state Employment Development Department represents a jump from the 8.4 percent figure in November 2008.

Excluding farmworkers, California lost 78,200 jobs in December as employers sliced payrolls to deal with the slowing economy.

California’s unemployment rate hasn’t been at this level since January 1994, when the state was coming out of its recession in the early part of that decade, said Stephen Levy, senior economist for the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy.

“California, like the nation, is in the midst of a terrible and deepening recession,” Levy said. “We all expect the job losses to continue and unemployment rates to go higher.”

The national unemployment rate jumped to 7.2 percent in December.

About 1.7 million Californians were looking for work last month — up by 166,000 since November and up 653,000 since December 2007.

Some 785,200 were laid off, while 125,300 chose to leave their job. The rest were either temporarily employed or new job seekers.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-01-23 14:21:12

Wow, 78K just in CA??

At 10% of US population, could this mean December job loss nationwide could be north of 750K?

Comment by ecofeco
2009-01-23 20:57:42

Yes, it indicates a million nationwide.

 
 
Comment by dude
2009-01-23 15:50:43

(whips out handy dandy calculator)

OK, so 9.4/8.3=1.1

1.1^8*9.4=20.14

So if we maintain the same rate of increase in the unemployment % MOM we will arrive north of 20% UE in 8 months.

My concern is that my calculation is too conservative.

PB/GS, can you do it better?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-24 00:42:57

dude

I am not expecting unemployment to get all the way to 20 pct. The political reaction function will not allow it.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-24 00:41:47

So Cali unemployment is quickly ramping up towards the 10 pct level (already back to 1994 levels), the Alt-A and prime resets are due to peak over the next couple of years, home prices are dropping at an unprecedented rate (something like 40 pct per year in San Diego) and foreclosures are going through the roof, yet reasonably respectable economists (e.g. Thornberg) are predicting the housing market will bottom out later this year? Go figure…

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-01-23 14:43:24

Proof that government spending is not limited to how many bills they can print.

Thickness of an american bill: .0043 inch.
$2.5 trillion ($1 trillion deficit, $700 billion TARP, $800+ billion stimulus) is $25 billion, $100 bills, the largest bills in circulation.

10,750,000 inches tall.
895,833 feet tall
179 miles tall.
Low Earth Orbit starts at about 100 miles up.

Or, if we prefer the end-to-end trick…
6.14 inches long x $25 billion = 2,422,644 miles long. Just a hair over 10x the distance between the earth and the moon at their closest point.

 
Comment by colum
2009-01-23 15:14:47

Shame about Harley-Davidson…

Do you know the difference between a Hoover and a Harley ?

It’s the location of the dirtbag !!

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 15:34:16

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — Freddie Mac, the mortgage-finance company now under federal control, said it will ask the U.S. Treasury Department for as much as $35 billion more in federal aid.

Freddie, which took $13.8 billion from Treasury in November, said in a securities filing today that its fourth- quarter operating losses will again drive its net worth below zero. The company also said it settled a dispute over Washington Mutual loans with JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Comment by robin
2009-01-24 01:22:18

So, who is really being helped here??

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-01-23 15:38:18

Jan. 23 (Bloomberg) — Treasuries fell, with 30-year bonds posting the biggest weekly loss in almost 22 years, on concern that debt sales will increase as the government boosts spending to ease the deepening economic slump.

Comment by packman
2009-01-23 18:47:52

Given that the stock market was down a fair amount - that says a lot. So much for “flight to safety” - at least for treasuries. It appears people now view gold as more safe than treasuries, since that’s where all the money went this week, as the banks foundations continue to crumble.

Something tells me the next month or so is going to be… interesting. LIke on the order of Sep. ‘08 interesting or even moreso.

Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:08:38

I believe the market will do, everything it can do, to take the most amount of money from the most amount of people.

In this case the sheeple (foreigners are not buying) are caught long - “nice, safe, secure bonds”.

and like every bad decision, they will ride the losses down.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-24 00:39:20

It Treasuries crash a little more, the stock market may crash a lot more in response…

 
 
Comment by Shane
2009-01-23 17:10:42

HB Readers:

The next big shoe, that is dropping now, as if in slooow-mooooootion, is Commercial Real Estate (CRE). The effects of the CRE plummet will feel very much closer to home for all of us. We will see a large number of Regional and Local Banks disappear; most will be bought or absorbed. And I believe that, once it begins, it will happen at lightning speed.

The difference between the local and national banking picture is that much more of the CRE portfolio ’stayed home’ with the local banks. Yes, some was securitized, but that portion is already mixed with the bad RRE securities being batted about like a hot potato.
And the negative effect of a failing commercial building or complex is generally more significant in magnitude than a bad home loan on a small local or regional bank.

In this round, there will be no Big Brother system in place to catch all of the fall-out, and mask the bad news, as has happened at the National level. I expect that it will be much more unsettling in some locales, as Banks close in rapid-fire fashion, people go for days without news about their deposits, and the FDIC struggles to keep up with the quantity of failures.

After all, we have had a massive expansion of Bank brick-and-mortor, and its is highly likely that the recession will cause a banking contraction to at least match the prior growth.

Keep your ear to the ground with regards to your own local banks. I have tended to bank with smaller banks because I like the personal service and the opportunity to get to know the President, Vice-President, etc. All are at risk.

Have a great weekend!

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-01-23 19:09:25

Niel is right.

Condo vultures coming in for landings in West Palm Beach

By JEFF OSTROWSKI

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Monday, January 19, 2009

For two years now, we heard that vulture investors were circling West Palm Beach’s overbuilt condo market - but none of the predicted bargain-basement deals closed. Maybe the construction cranes scared off the scavengers?

In recent weeks, though, the vultures have arrived in force.

One unnamed vulture investor is poised to pay $150 a square foot for 140 units at The Whitney at 410 Evernia St., people familiar with the deal say. That’s much less than the $330 a square foot or more paid by buyers who closed in 2007.

In December, lender iStar Financial took 140 of the The Whitney’s 210 units from the developer in a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure. CB Richard Ellis broker Robert Given is marketing the units for iStar. He confirmed that the condos are under contract but wouldn’t disclose other details.

The Whitney isn’t the only prey for vultures. In late December, Ed Dunlap, head of a Pennsylvania roofing company, paid $5 million, or $165 a square foot, for 26 units at The Edge. That’s well below the $368 a square foot paid by the 155 buyers who closed in 2007.

The vultures are getting big discounts from boomtime prices, but Neil Merin of NAI/Merin Hunter Codman says they still might be paying too much.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:40:04

They are paying FAR too much.

Those units are going to close to ZERO. They are pure liabilities since rent won’t cover anywhere near the mortgage.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-01-23 19:39:42

How will pay freezes (or cuts) square with plans to stabilize housing by propping up home prices? Brick wall, meet fast-moving automobile…

Pay freezes hit workers _ White House not spared
By JEANNINE AVERSA – 1 day ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — What do Tropicana Casino and Resort, Avis, Yahoo and the White House now have in common?

They’re all freezing the pay of some of their workers. It’s part of a growing trend by employers facing the fallout — economic and political — from a brutal recession.

For companies, pay freezes are a key cost-cutting tool for surviving hard times.

For President Barack Obama, who ordered a pay freeze for White House employees earning over $100,000 a year, the move on his first full day in office sent a message to a nervous country: We’re in this together.

“During this period of economic emergency,” Obama said Wednesday, “families are tightening their belts, and so should Washington.”

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-01-23 19:44:47

Yep, that’s inflationary too. LOL.

Comment by vozworth
2009-01-23 20:36:48

well, I guess we are not friends anymore…

I puked up a retort in the glod column above and coulndt get so much as a scratch on my tummy….

whats yer point?

inflations a myth?

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-01-23 20:50:10

‘…and coulndt get so much as a scratch on my tummy….’

Well! That’s just horrid. No tummy scratches? It’s 7:47 PNW time, I’m logging in just now to see what I missed, and I see that I missed a lot.
And I am just apalled! Hey, guess what, interestingly, I was just barely thinking today that boys is like cats, and need lots of tummy scratches in order to be happy. Oh, and bacon, too.

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Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 21:58:27

So we did an ‘Oly’
we are out on the sleds, riding safely (no more than a 6 pack/person), when we got to a stop sign and looked at my friends 17 yr old grandson and he is soaked. He was wearing a “hot rod racing POS helmet” and couldn’t drink through the helmet, typical teenager. All the beer was on him, damn his gramma was teed off that he wasted “that fine beer”.

Now back to my house and instead of the cheap stuff (Capt Morgan’s, Admiral Nelson’s or Montgay) they go for the Barbancourt! Bottles bite the dust. Oh well the sacrifice to go sledding.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:11:12

“I took that system on. I challenged that system. “That’s what this is all about.”
Gov. Rod Blagojevich of Illinois

“All of these things are designed, I guess, to create grassroots support. I think it borders on delusional, to be honest.”
Chicago trial attorney Matt Belcher.

God I love Illinois politics

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:14:29

So I know I have had a lot to drink but when I thought the ad at the top said

K. Hovnanian Homes
50 Years of Losing Value

I broke out in toe wiggling and spewed my beer.

 
Comment by hoz
2009-01-23 22:35:29

“Goals of Man: ☑ Don’t get eaten by a lion, ☑ Get out of Africa, Get out of Earth, Get out of Solar System , Get out of Galaxy, Get out of Local Group, Get out of Earth-Visible Universe, Get out of Universe”
Knome

“Investing for the Long Slump

I have no crystal ball with which to predict the Future, a confession that comes as a surprise to some journalists who interview me. Still less do I think I have the ability to out-predict markets. On every occasion when I’ve considered betting against a prediction market - most recently, betting against Barack Obama as President - I’ve been glad that I didn’t. I admit that I was concerned in advance about the recent complexity crash, but then I’ve been concerned about it since 1994, which isn’t very good market timing.

I say all this so that no one panics when I ask:

Suppose that the whole global economy goes the way of Japan (which, by the Nikkei 225, has now lost two decades).

Suppose the global economy is still in the Long Slump in 2039.

Most market participants seem to think this scenario is extremely implausible. Is there a simple way to bet on it at a very low price?

If most traders act as if this scenario has a probability of 1%, is there a simple bet, executable using an ordinary brokerage account, that pays off 100 to 1?

Why do I ask? Well… in general, it seems to me that other people are not pessimistic enough; they prefer not to stare overlong or overhard into the dark; and they attach too little probability to things operating in a mode outside their past experience….”
Eliezer Yudkowsky

 
Comment by packman
2009-01-29 12:47:41

test

 
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