Bits Bucket For February 9, 2009
Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Please visit the HBB Forum. Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
February Is National Layoff Month….are you proud to be an American today?
Spoke with a friend yesterday who purchased in Spring 2008 - he admits that while home prices are falling, there is no way any sane banker would lend him the money for his purchase anymore, so he’s glad he purchased.
But he apparently ran into a RE agent at a party on Friday night and she was spouting this “fact” that he’ll get a $15,000 tax credit - this year - just for being a homeowner. So he’s planning a basement rehab.
I don’t know if this RE agent is just stupid, lazy, dumb, or just a liar…. but you can only imagine how the NAR is going to blow this tax credit thing way out of porportion in an effort to steal future demand. Just think of how much misinformation a typical RE agent claims regarding the mortgage interest tax deduction - and add this to their stable of lies.
“So he’s planning a basement rehab.”
Be thankful for his willing donations to the economy, for keeping the money flowing.
“…in an effort to steal future demand…”
Likely outcome of $15K buyer credit: Debt cat bounce in sales, followed by worse-than-expected future housing market performance.
RE: tax credit, the amusing aspect of any dead cat bounce is that it seems more likely to stimulate this on the lower end, when it’s apparent that the higher tier is the one about to get wiped out this year.
So long as they keep pushing the Day of Reckoning out into the future with larger and larger “rebates,” housing will never be affordable in our lifetimes either via government meddling or the resulting destruction of the dollar caused by that meddling.
Talk about “Mission Accomplished!” and “Change we can believe in!”
I don’t see anything mitigating price drops at this point. The inventory numbers are too large.
Seriously. You can smell the desperation.
“Likely outcome of $15K buyer credit: Debt cat bounce in sales, followed by worse-than-expected future housing market performance.”
I don’t think it will even cause a debt-cat bounce in pricing; but it will help some transactions occur. And we WANT that!
Keep in mind, you need some transactions to occur in a market to aid in price discovery. No transactions implies no information. And we need a nice steady information flow to slowly convince FB’s that they are F’ed.
Somehow I think the 15K tax credit will be the equivilent of trying to bail the ocean with a thimble. Tax credit or not lending standings are reverting to type*. Very few fools left who think RE is the path to easy riches. *Yesterday at an open house a young lady was sort or complaining to the realtor that for her or a friends, pre-approval the bank wanted so much paperwork. The realtor said that was the new way of doing things. I corrected him that it was the old way. He and associate (mortgage broker) then said yes that was the old way.
Thats almost as funny as my mother’s friend who just got 2 months notice of an impending layoff. She said all her co-workers didn’t think it would be soo bad because you don’t have to pay taxes on your unemployment insurance and they planned on living it up for the next 1.5 years while collecting.
Don’t know if it has changed, but in New Jersey you actually don’t have to have *withholding* done on unemployment even though it is taxable income. Can be quite interesting when you realize you have collected for a while and despite the poverty level living you have done, you have to check to see if you owe an estimated tax payment.
Note, that since your income goes way down, if you become unemployed later in the year, say October, it is very likely that what you have already had withheld, will cover the unemployment for the rest of the year. This will vary wildly based on your income and withholding and how much of your income your unemployment covers. Also, it is not subject to payroll taxes.
Don’t know if it has changed, but in New Jersey you actually don’t have to have *withholding* done on unemployment even though it is taxable income.
It’s true in Illinois as well. I opted for no withholding, and I’ll worry about the tax hit later.
I believe that the current stimulus bill has a provision that would make unemployment tax exempt. I don’t know if it’s still there or not, or it was just proposed and never happened.
D’oh..why couldn’t they have passed something like that last year? Just finished my first pass at my taxes…owe a nice sum (relatively speaking) due to UI benefits. I guess in TX they simply don’t withhold by default…
Who was Pres in 1986?
———————————————
Does UI benefit information need to be reported for Federal and State income taxes?
Yes, the Tax Reform Act of 1986 mandated that unemployment insurance benefits are taxable.
Temporary layoffs…..good times!
No taxes on unemployment - not that’s dy-no-mite!
Yeah, living La Vida Loco on 15.6k/yr!
“there is no way any sane banker would lend him the money for his purchase anymore, so he’s glad he purchased.”
This fool doesn’t realize that the reason the banker wouldn’t lend the money (now) is because the odds are so high that he will lose the home to foreclosure. The foreclosure is a done deal; it just hasn’t happened yet. Just a pawn in the game.
It’s not exactly a done deal! There are some (ok, a few, including Dean Baker and Paul Krugman) who are calling it a subsidy for flippers. Not sure if their voices will be heard….
I heard that too. These folks apparently don’t realize there’s a 3-year ownership requirement, which prevents this credit for being used for flipping.
Not sure if there might be an easy way around that limit, though not sure how.
Ownership or occupancy?
Not sure, but it’s not really relevant. The government can’t prove or track occupancy, only ownership.
I’ve known lots of people who claim primary residences that they don’t actually live in. It’s very common.
At a minimum, though, based on IRS returns, wouldn’t they be able to tell if you filed for the tax credit more than once in 3 years?
The senate amendment required principal residence occupancy for 3 years.
“At a minimum, though, based on IRS returns, wouldn’t they be able to tell if you filed for the tax credit more than once in 3 years?”
Certainly they wouldn’t allow that - I’m thinking more about people who already have a home (owned or rented), and buy a secondary investment home but claim it as primary to get the tax credit.
2 years, isn’t it?
Considering all the “honesty” in the rest of the Bubble, I am sure that there will be ways around this limitation.
We have to get Americans back to flipping houses to each other at ever-increasing prices or we’ll have to build a real economy with real wages… I think we know how this one ends!
I hope they enforce the “primary residence” requirement. This will keep the flippers to only one “investment” - after renting their current primary residence.
“primary residence” requirements are like the easiest thing in the world to side step - there’s a whole range of options there.
who knows, it might give birth to an entiry new industry where all these ex-realtors can find a job
If the subsidy passes in its current form, watch for swap sale postings on Craigslist.
“3/2, 2300 SF ranch in the Chris Dodd elementary/ Alan Greenspan middle school district, looking to do a swap sell for an equivalent home nearby. Call 987-654-3210.”
All homes in the Dodd Greenspan school district qualify for the Friends of Angelo iRrational Thinking (FART) mortgage plan.
In order for people to retain any significant amount of their tax credit goodies in such a scheme, they would in fact mostly do it through Craigslist as you mention. They would need to cut the six-percenters out of the deal completely in order to make it worth doing. Just simple closing costs alone in most states will eat significantly into the $15,000 credit.
In my extremely jaded state of mind toward all of this, I hope it does play out that way. Not only will it then be obvious to everyone what an incredibly boneheaded piece of REIC-paid for legislation this is, but the realtors won’t even reap the benefit! Some poetic justice, to boot.
Is this 15K credit even good for those who bought a house in 2008?? That’s how I’m reading this thread. Someone I know brought this up too.
The way I read it, yes it applies back to 2008, so for example a guy I work with got the $7500 “credit” (not really cuz you have to pay it back) for buying a house late last year. If this passes, then we will retroactively instead get 15k (although truly he doesn’t pay that much in fed income tax) under the new rules.
At least, that’s they way I understand what is going on.
Well crap then the damn RE agent is correct.
Please tell me how getting a retroactive tax credit stimulates anything? It was a done deal and closed at $7,500, going retroactive to $15,000 is a windfall, not stimulus. I hope this is not true….
rsskeptic… the definition of “stimulus” is spending. A tax credit means more “spending”. Retroactive or not it is pointless to argue about fairness.
How does the credit work if two people went in on a house together? Do they both claim the credit? 50/50?
This could be a huge boon to my parents and my brother if we get to count 2008 purchases!
At the end of the Senate amendment is this:
(i) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall apply to residences purchased on or after December 31, 2008, in taxable years ending on or after such date.
So it seems I was wrong about that. ‘08 purchases fall under the $7500 and still have to pay it back while ‘09 purchases get the $15,000 scot free. Any legal professionals want to weigh in on that? Am I reading that right?
If so, that should really piss some people off. lmao
It wil be $30,000 in 2010.
“It wil be $30,000 in 2010.”
LOL… And $60K in 2012?
I’ve read it’s retroactive to January 1, 2009.. so no.
Amends the Internal Revenue Code to allow purchasers of a single-family principal residence a one-time tax credit for up to $15,000 of the purchase price. Requires such a residence to be purchased after February 29, 2008, and before March 1, 2009, and that it be: (1) a new previously unoccupied residence for which a building permit has been issued and construction began on or before September 1, 2007; (2) an owner-occupied residence with a mortgage indebtedness in default on or before March 1, 2008; or (3) in foreclosure and owned by the mortgagor or the mortgagor’s agent.
My bad, that is way out of date… please ignore the above.
(h) Election to Treat Purchase in Prior Year.–In the case of a purchase of a principal residence during the period described in subsection (b)(1), a taxpayer may elect to treat such purchase as made on December 31, 2008, for purposes of this section.”.
(b) Clerical Amendment.–The table of sections for subpart A of part IV of subchapter A of chapter 1 is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 25D the following new item:
“Sec..25E..Credit for certain home purchases.”.
© Sunset of Current First-Time Homebuyer Credit.–
(1) IN GENERAL.–Subsection (h) of section 36 is amended by striking “July 1, 2009” and inserting “the date of the enactment of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act of 2009”.
(2) ELECTION TO TREAT PURCHASE IN PRIOR YEAR.–Subsection (g) of section 36 is amended by striking “July 1, 2009” and inserting “the date of the enactment of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act of 2009”.
(d) Effective Date.–The amendments made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2008.
On page 431, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following:
SEC. 1607. FHA LOAN LIMITS FOR 2009.
Now just wait a minute here. Can I buy a house for say 1$ in Detroit and get a 15K tax credit?
If I default on the tax liability this might work out good.
You would get a $0.10 credit (10% or $15K which ever is less)
I bought a motorhome last year. Does that qualify? No basement though.
I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Check the effective dates. I’ll bet the $15k starts Jan 1 09 and phases out by the end of the year. He can probably still get the $7.5k loan enacted last summer, though.
So do you think Rick Santelli on CNBC reads and may possibly post on this blog?
Caught Rick Santelli on CNBC. He said the Fed Gov. should have let the bad banks collapse and supported the good banks. Rick Santelli is my hero and pleasing to the eye to boot
He’s also one my favs on CNBC, he seems to really tell it like he sees it. Of course, overall, CNBC is still shill-a-vision but there are certainly some good people on that network, and some great information if you can sort through the chaff.
Definitely my favorite, too. The only one on CNBC who is honest, IMHO.
Agree, Rick Santelli is the best financial commentator I know… tells it like it is regardless of what the other talking heads say…
I didn’t see the segment, but don’t agree with this part of your post:
“…should have let the bad banks collapse and supported the good banks.”
By definition - the good banks don’t need support. IMO the government shouldn’t be supporting any banks.
+1 for stating the obvious.
It’s like a band-aide. There is going to be pain getting it off. What we’re doing is the slow pain. Let it rip!!!
Note that band-aide is covering a severed carotid artery.
And not doing a very good job, at that.
Santelli reminds me of Smilin’ Bob in the Enzyte commercial.
According to cnbc.com, a report is coming out later this week from Moody’s Economy.com. From the article:
“Despite the darkening national economic outlook and the weak conditions in the housing market, some positive signs give hope that a bottom in the housing market is coming into view,” the report said.
“More than three years since the market began correcting, inventories are flattening, prices are coming back down to earth, and sales are approaching stability,” the report said.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29028031
Guess it all depends on how you define “bottom”.
Inventories flattening - well yeah, though still at historically-high values, i.e. enough to keep prices going down for the foreseeable future.
Prices coming back down to earth - definitely a good thing, though certainly not an indicator of nearing a bottom. Prices can (and will) overshoot by a lot.
Sales approaching stability - irrelevant with respect to a bottom.
Yep, prices still falling fast, but they may have reached terminal velocity.
Or, you can come to Maryland, where prices are nowhere near affordable.
I look forward to the Option Arm and Alt-A crash - hopefully, that’ll take care of this state’s overpriced real estate.
Approaching stability?
Kinda like an airplane approaches the airport?
Speaking of airplanes, airports and stability, anybody catch 60 minutes last night and the Captain Sully interview, with the security camera footage of the plane going into the Hudson River??
You’ll be hard put to find a better landing anywhere, land or sea.
Yes, I thought it was one of the better produced news packages. Couric was decent. Look what people can do when they try, have an interesting subject and spend time understanding the different angles, focusing on good writing and story composition and are given enough time to do so. Production for this story started 3 weeks ago. CBS producers had the time, mandate, and funding from their leadership do a good job. Something you don’t see much anymore in news, govt or business.
Captain Sully is one heck of a human being and pilot. I have nothing but respect for that man, and his co pilot too. That was one h*ll of a 60 minutes. Kudos to the crew and passengers.
All those lawsuits (most from back of the plane) just piss me off. Hey, how about being grateful you’re alive, a-holes.
One of the headlines out there this AM is “Wall Street Anxious for Passage of Stimulus Bill”. Scary. Because if Wall Street likes it, it’s got to be a REALLY bad idea.
Does anyone else get a sort of squeamish feeling over the word “stimulus” being used in this context? It makes me cringe a little.
“Because if Wall Street likes it, …”
the plan implicitly must involve a flow of money from Main Street to Wall Street. But I have some bad news for Da Boyz… you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip, and plankton can only die once before it is no longer alive.
feeling over the word “stimulus”….
taser them
“taser them”
I’m confused, do you live in Florida now? Lol…
Please see an economist if you have a recession lasting 12 months or more….
Priceless, Jim! I love double entendres and that sort of thing.
Yep, Washington is applying a giant sex toy to the country. Where they’re applying it is entirely another matter.
sooner or later, something good will come out
“Please see an economist if you have a recession lasting 12 months or more….”
That’s awesome, Jim! LOL… What a great analogy for the stimulus package.
RE: Does anyone else get a sort of squeamish feeling over the word “stimulus” being used in this context? It makes me cringe a little.
Squeamish?
How about acute nausea?
$9.7 trillion and counting!
The Pelosi and Frank Dog and Pony show has lost it’s sanity.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aGq2B3XeGKok
I am making an HBB soundtrack for Ben and Vegas, please post any bubble related sings or NAR clips, or whatever!
YOu can email them to me, too
x110y110 at gmail
Perfect song for 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKxfxixwdXE
DJ, got it
You could use a chorus of Pelosi saying we are loosing six m..m..m..million jobs a month.
Pelosi - Got it!
Muggy, I’ll make some files available for download — too many to e-mail.
(Kind of fun, looking for an HBB theme.)
Hey, Muggy — e-mail w/link sent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2oXzrnti4&feature=related
Muggy,
Any proper HBB soundtrack would include “Ghost Town” by The Specials. The visuals bring to mind Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and just about anywhere in Florida.
Good watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMu1mFao3w
I was amazed at how frankly Kanjorsky spoke about the Treasury/Fed OMG meeting w/Congress.
See @ 2:20 in. Recommended!
I usually find Dr. John Hussman’s market commentary to be insightful and actually made some good trades based on his views. His article today had some snippets from Ray Dalio, who runs Bridgewater Associates, on the current financial crisis and what is likely to happen going forward, as interviewed in Barron’s this week. It has some of the things I predicted earlier such as no inflation likely in the short & probably intermediate term as current monetary policy only barely keeps deflationary spiral at bay at best:
“Basically what happens is that after a period of time, economies go through a long-term debt cycle — a dynamic that is self-reinforcing, in which people finance their spending by borrowing and debts rise relative to incomes and, more accurately, debt-service payments rise relative to incomes. At cycle peaks, assets are bought on leverage at high-enough prices that the cash flows they produce aren’t adequate to service the debt. The incomes aren’t adequate to service the debt. Then begins the reversal process, and that becomes self-reinforcing, too.
“What the Federal Reserve has done and what the Treasury has done, by and large, is to take an existing debt and say they will own it or lend against it. But they haven’t said they are going to write down the debt and cut debt payments each month. There has been little in the way of debt relief yet. Very, very few actual mortgages have been restructured. Very little corporate debt has been restructured. The reason it hasn’t actually produced increased credit activity is because the debtors are still too indebted and not able to properly service the debt.
“If you think that restructuring the banks is going to get lending going again and you don’t restructure the other pieces — the mortgage piece, the corporate piece, the real-estate piece — you are wrong, because they need financially sound entities to lend to, and that won’t happen until there are restructurings.
“By the way, in the bear market from 1929 to the bottom, stocks declined 89%, with six rallies of returns of more than 20% — and most of them produced renewed optimism. But what happened was that the economy continued to weaken with the debt problem. The Hoover administration had the equivalent of today’s TARP [Troubled Asset Relief Program] in the Reconstruction Finance Corp. The stimulus program and tax cuts created more spending, and the budget deficit increased.
“You print a lot of money, and then you have currency devaluation. The currency devaluation happens before bonds fall. Not much in the way of inflation is produced, because what you are doing actually is negating deflation. So, the first wave of currency depreciation will be very much like England in 1992, with its currency realignment, or the United States during the Great Depression, when they printed money and devalued the dollar a lot. Gold went up a whole lot and the bond market had a hiccup, and then long-term rates continued to decline because people still needed safety and liquidity. While the dollar is bad, it doesn’t mean necessarily that the bond market is bad.
“I can easily imagine at some point I’m going to hate bonds and want to be short bonds, but, for now, a portfolio that is a mixture of Treasury bonds and gold is going to be a very good portfolio, because I imagine gold could go up a whole lot and Treasury bonds won’t go down a whole lot, at first. Buying equities and taking on those risks in late 2009, or more likely 2010, will be a great move because equities will be much cheaper than now.”
I thought they were going to make a “bad” bank and move all of the rotten assets to said bank, freeing up the rest of the institutions to pay bonuses?
“a portfolio that is a mixture of Treasury bonds and gold”
Maybe gold, but where is the upside on l-t T-bonds yielding in the neighborhood of 3 pct?
IIRC Dr. Hussman’s fund is long TIPS.
“…I continue to view inflation-protected securities as more appropriate than straight Treasuries as the implied rate of inflation in TIPS continues to be implausibly low (alternatively, one could say that the nominal yield in straight Treasuries appears unsustainably low in relation to TIPS yields). The Strategic Total Return Fund continues to be primarily invested in TIPS, with about 10% of assets in foreign currencies, about 10% in precious metals shares, and about 5% of assets in utility shares….”
Dr. John Hussman
He’s making the point that the upside is lack of risk (short-term at least), and returns relative to a deflating dollar.
There just aren’t any low-risk things out there returning more than 2-3%, that I’m aware of anyhow.
“Buying equities and taking on those risks in late 2009, or more likely 2010, will be a great move because equities will be much cheaper than now.”
Yep. Combotechie’s Plan A.
From Bloomberg this morning:
‘Bill Fleckenstein, who warned of the housing bubble in 2005, closed his 13-year-old bear market fund and bought shares of Microsoft Corp.
“It’d be easier for me to find five stocks I think are going to go up than five stocks I think are going to go down,” said Fleckenstein, who is based in Seattle. “Being short right now just feels like the wrong strategy.” ‘
POLITICO
Summers: At least $50B for housing
By NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON | 2/8/09 10:18 PM EST
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner’s speech on his plans for the second half of the $700 billion bank bailout package has been postponed until Tuesday, Lawrence Summers said Sunday on “This Week with George Stephanopoulos.”
The speech had been slated for Monday, but Summers said that the Obama administration wanted to focus for now on the $800-plus billion economic stimulus package Congress is negotiating.
“I think there is a desire to keep the focus on the economic recovery program which is so very, very important,” said Summers, the former Treasury secretary in the Clinton and head of the White House’s National Economic Council.
In the speech, Geithner is set to lay out how the administration will use the $350 billion in remaining TARP funds. Summers gave a preview of what that program will look like:
“The focus is going to be on increasing the flow of credit and doing it with transparency, with accountability for those that receive support and with a kind of consistency that frankly we haven’t seen so far,” he said. “There will be support for the credit markets more generally and absolutely critically, support and pressure that assures that these needless foreclosures are avoided…I expect there will be 50 billion dollars or more that will be directed at providing support for the housing sector of our economy.”
Reuven,
You claimed yesterday that nobody has to pay for tax cuts and when I expressed disbelief, you challenged me to tell you who did pay for them. It was too late when I saw your question, so here is the answer.
The exact same people who pay for additional spending pay for tax cuts - future taxpayers.
Deficit spending is deficit spending. Doesn’t matter if you generate the deficit by reducing your income and spending the same amount or by increasing your spending and not bringing in more money. To claim that your can reduce taxes and not generate deficits is absurd.
The short answer to that question(and many other government problems) would be “your grandchildren”.
That was the answer 70 years ago. We are the children/grandchildren. Our attempt to push it onto the great-grandchildren will fail because the dollar will collapse before we can kick this can on to another generation.
We will also pay via inflation.
“To claim that your can reduce taxes and not generate deficits is absurd.”
Saying a tax cut doesn’t create deficit is another deceptive way of saying a tax cut pays for itself. It’s all part of the failed supply side ideology.
maybe i’m missing something..
A tax cut no more creates a deficit than does a tax proposal that is rejected. The tax revenue is not collected in either case.
That money never reached the hands of the govt, so nothing has been taken away from govt if a tax is “cut”.
If you assume the service that tax money once paid for will continue to exist as it always did, and somehow must be funded, then yeah.. Someone else will have to pay.. but it’s based on an assumption.
It all depends on what then is meant by “a deficit”. That is - is the deficit relative to:
A. Zero
B. The balance had no action been taken
C. The balance had no change of action been taken
When people talk about tax cuts causing deficit, they’re generally talking about relative to C, whereas you’re talking about relative to A.
If the tax cuts didn’t happen, then revenue would have been higher than it otherwise would, thus less deficit without the tax cuts.
i agree.. the problem is we have various concepts for “deficit”.
The dictionary has a firm definition… deficit means spending more than you’re taking in… simple.
I could claim that after govt cut a tax, it then created a deficit by not cutting spending to balance the tax cut.
Balance a tax cut with an equal cut in spending and no deficit is created. It takes two to tango.
Polly
The correct phrase for Reuven’s posit is:
If the dollar is freely convertible and there are foreign buyers of US treasuries then there is no reason for personal income taxes. EVER. Ergo, taxes are another method of controlling inflation.
Reuven is correct.
some big IFs in that statement …
I always hated the spin “pay for tax cuts.” This spin was invented by socialists to make it a meme so that many people will believe that somehow the money that is taxed does not belong to the taxpayer in the first place. Be careful of using someone’s slogans.
The truth is it doesn’t belong to the taxpayer. Services rendered, it’s time to pay.
Sorry, wrong answer. It does belong to the taxpayers, and most of the services are rendered poorly.
Cut the services. At least cut the grossly overweight salaries and pensions of the service providers. Or furlough them. Or fire them.
This isn’t political. I don’t care whose sacred cows are being gored. Just keep cutting until the books balance.
There. That wasn’t so hard, was it??
And the facts remain at the end of the day. Let’s see, it’s 9:35pm EST but what the hell, I have a few minutes…
1) We’re not going to get rid of public schools, firemen, police or public works employees. In fact we’re going to get more.
2) We’re not going to offload the developmentally disabled onto the church steps. Not only will we keep the heat and lights on in existing facilities, there are new facilities to be built and staffed. The faith based pipe dream was merely rhetoric for the stupid.
3) Public utilities have a usable life of 20 years. We’re going to design and construct newer, bigger, better water, wastewater and power generation facilities. And they will all be fully staffed.
All these costs will be borne by taxpayers.
Thank you, exeter!
Thanks to Polly, too!
Services are never cut along with the taxes, so somehow, the money must be found ( or borrowed ) to pay for those services.
You never hear politicians say “$15k tax cut for new house purchases, and in exchange, we will immediately cut funding for the Cowgirl Hall of Fame in Fort Worth Texas and research into the mating habits of Pacific Salmon”.
It would be more like 15K tax cut for new houses and feds will halt all contributions to states to help pay for Medicaid. Or maybe something between those two. Wildlife research and grants for museums are pretty small compared with tax credits for new house purchases.
Real issue is that in this particular situation, they aren’t going to even try to offset the tax cuts. The whole purpose is to generate deficit spending. That is what is the stimulous. If the government reduces taxes (in the vain hope that people who have just stepped off the biggest spending binge of a lifetime will get back on) and then cuts an equivalent amount of government spending, there will be no stimulous.
I don’t like ALL tax cuts. I favor across the board cuts, and am opposed for a special deduction for this, a $500 credit for that, a $2000/year bank account for this-and-that, etc. I don’t like any tax “deductions”, including the Mortgage Interest deduction. The proposed “auto loan interest” deduction made me want to puke.
These are clearly tax cuts that will simply increase our debt.
They’re misguided when they go to the “non-taxpaying” class. Those include these $15K home-purchase incentives, etc (which start to phase out when your income gets “too high”). If you want a tax cut to stimulate the economy, it has to go to people who directly create jobs, and already pay more than their fair share of taxes.
Our National Budget in 2007 was 2.730 Trillion. That means, with 300,000,000, each man, woman, and child needs to pay $9100 to keep the Government going.
Now, of course, some budget comes from corporate taxes, tarriffs, etc, so let’s cut this number in half to $4550.
Any family of 4 that doesn’t pay at least $18,200 in Federal income tax are moochers. There’s no reason to target tax cuts to them.
Do you know that George W. Bush sighed into law a tax cut for homedebtors worth at least $700 Billion Dollars, maybe more? He signed into law legislation that eliminates income tax on forgiven mortgage debt. That means for every $100,000 of loan a FB walks away from, there’s $35,000 of taxes he doesn’t have to pay! (Not to mention not counting this as income lowers his tax bracket for the remaining income.)
FBs already got $700 Billion Dollars! Largely a tax cut to the middle class! THEY DON’T NEED A PENNY MORE OF GOVERNMENT HELP! (And, are they grateful for this? NO! It was dismissed as “phantom income” that was wrong to be taxed on in the first place!)
“Any family of 4 that doesn’t pay at least $18,200 in Federal income tax are moochers. There’s no reason to target tax cuts to them.”
hmmmmm I don’t pay that much FED tax. I was just calculating taxes this weekend almost done. Have to wait for a certain brokerage account to get its records finished.
Moocher!
Way before I ever get to that level of FED tax, I stop earning money if I can’t write it off. I mean, there’s just no reason. Unless I have to lock in a cap gain, of course.
Would you prefer “pay for currently obligated expenditures”? Certainly everyone would agree that cutting programs is one way to “pay for taxcuts.”
Is this a government operation or what? The problem is we have a bunch of bad banks that are so crippled by their past bad decisions that they cannot lend, and no one trusts them enough to do business with them.
So what is the solution? Have the government create yet another bad bank.
Why not just keep the bad banks we have, and have the government create some good banks?
Why not just keep the bad banks we have, and have the government create some good banks?
Because government don’t know squat about running a business or making a profit or screening borrowers or following a budget or being careful with money or planning for the future… or creating anything except more government.
That was a theory I heard floated briefly on the msm - creating a “good” bank. I’m sure the lobbyists from Wall Street killed that idea (and the messenger).
I don’t understand this quest to keep bad banks solvent either . The
Feds/Treasury could of just created funds for lending with solvent banks
and lending outfits . So much of the moves in the last two years by the powers have been to shore up Investment firms and Wall Street and Insurance companies like AIG .
I understand the fact that the Powers have shored up losses with Freddie/Fannie because of a implied insurance by the Government
for those investors ,but a good deal of the mortgages were funded from Wall Street and the CDO securities market . I think that there was a lot of passing of paper around by the powers when the sh*t hit the fan .What happen to all that bad paper that Mortgage Companies
were holding when TSHTF ,right before they declare BK ?
To me all the laws were in place as to how these securities were to be handled or de-leveraged and I don’t understand why the unregulated world of Lending has anything to do with the Major Regulated Banks .Did the Major Banks take all the bad paper back ?
I understand that Banks had to take back paper that defaulted within the first year under a lot of agreements ,and that would cover a lot of that fraudulent stuff that was taking place in the last year of the boom . They keep talking about transparency ,but I don’t get how all this paper is being handled .
I don’t understand this quest to keep bad banks solvent either..
From my point of view, when my bank issues a mortgage, the bank is not taking on the risk.. the risk is mine because it’s my money they are lending.
When that bank sells the mortgage to Wall Street investors, the investor is me. Again, it is me taking on the risk.
If the banks and Wall Street go sour in a big way, I am out of there.. I take my money and run.. no more soup for you.. Money, credit, businesses and jobs dry up. Tax revenues shrink across the board and govts from local to federal cannot fund their commitments.
Govt supporting banks and Wall Street in times of trouble is for my benefit. It attempts to make me feel my money is secure and that investing is prudent. If the effort succeeds, all is well. If not, the economy collapses.
The govt should only insure what was previously agreed to: FDIC and optionally, SIPC-insured accounts.
Protect the depositors, and let the rest fail. There is NO reason to prop up “bad” banks nor buy up “bad” assets that supposedly can’t be valued. Hogwash. I smell a skunk.
There are lots of political benefits to saving Wall Street as well as costs. If they save Wall Street fat cats, come election time WS owes them. Plus, it’s a liberal geographic region. Saving jobs saves votes. In addition, local governments in this area depend on Wall Street tax dollars. It’s politics as usual, no change.
In a NYT article on how “difficult” it is to live on only $500K in Manhattan, this blew me away:
“You’re not going to get through private school without tutoring a kid,” said Sandy Bass, the editor of Private School Insider, a newsletter that covers private schools in the New York City area. One hour of tutoring once a week is $125. “That’s the low end,” she said. “The higher end is 150, 175.” SAT tutors are about $250 an hour. Total cost for 30 weeks of regular tutoring: $3,750.”
So an SAT tutor to Wall Street kids, working 30 hours/week makes $390,000 a year, almost as much as the President of the United States? Yeah, nothing out of whack there. How can anyone living in the Wall Street world have any idea how the real world is or how to fix it? No wonder Paulson and Geithner are so clueless.
“You’re not going to get through private school without tutoring a kid,”
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just tutor the kid, than to tutor him and send him to private school? Or just move to Peoria if you don’t like Manhattan prices?
You clearly can’t have met one of these MoTU-types to even suggest moving to Peoria!
We need less MoTU-types and more Peoria types.
So I say - F ‘em. Let them eat (relative) cake.
Oh, they’re already gettin’ eff-ed, no question about it.
Once you’ve leveraged yourself to a $2M+ per year lifestyle, you’re pretty much eff-ed. Please note, that they don’t have assets; they just have cash flow from current income.
If Wall Street is really full of the best and brightest shouldn’t their kids be able to ace the SAT’s without any tutoring? Maybe those trophy wives should come with warning labels: “For display purposes only. Not for use in procreation. Improper use of this product may produce morons.”
Oh, and UBS is offerin’ their “special talent” employees loans in lieu of incomes.
Yep, that’s gonna work out real good! LOL
Please note, that they don’t have assets; they just have cash flow from current income.
There it is in a nutshell boys and girls: Live below your income level, acquire assets for the long-term, and keep leverage/debt to a minimum… those who understand this will be fine. Those that don’t, well, sometimes life has a way of kicking you in the balls. It’s up to you to learn from it. I know I certainly did…
I know quite a few of these people myself (all cash-flow via income; no assets.)
That’s why I can recognize the signs very easily even in a badly-written article.
Oh, good morning Fasty, welcome back.
Did you enjoy your art museums? I certainly hope so.
Now, quickly, brutalize somebody for our viewing pleasure!
I loved them.
The Barnes Foundation has to be the greatest museum nobody has ever heard of, and the Philly Museum of Art ain’t exactly chopped liver either.
For the pleasure of the denizens of the HBB, I also went past the famous “failed” Second Bank of the United States which was all boarded up and looking decrepit.
Not true! I went to private schools all my life and never needed a tutor :-p
I went to public school, and since I was in all AP classes my senior year, MADE money as a tutor for underclassmen.
Man, I was gettin’ ripped off at $20 an hour!
The really high end schools only recommend their own teachers as tutors, so a tutor is unlikely to be able to work 30 hours a week. He or she already has a full time job teaching at the school. Plus the kids are elsewhere in the summer so there go two to three months.
It is meant to supplement the pay of the teachers who make pretty pathetic salaries considering the schools charge absurd tuitions and the teachers often have advanced degrees (think real Phds in history, not masters in early childhood educations).
I bet a lot of those tutored, raised-by-nanny kids are going to end up as complete wastrels.
I still don’t understand why the Lenders had these kind of losses . Didn’t the Lenders pass off the junk papers to the big Secondary Market of CDO’s or they passed the paper to Freddie and Fannie in which the risk was suppose to be spread out on the securities and diced up into securities . I know that the Credit Default Swaps come into play here ,but I am still unclear
as to how the whole system put the losses back on the pass the bad paper
Lenders . I thought the whole idea of the CDO’s was to spread out the risk to many ,and that was one of the reasons why those investment Trenches were considered less risky . I mean is it just a matter of the CDS Insurance not being able to pay off ,because of the leverage. I still don’t fully get it .
How much did China have? Did they get paid back so they didn`t call in all their U.S. chips?
China and all of Asia owned less than $10B of securitization BS and took their losses. But China got out of all its MBS (Fannie & Freddie) paper and rolled into 1 month to 2 year treasuries.
This does not mean that the China banks are solvent. They have different problems.
2nd rule: “Don’t get high on you own supply.”
The above was in answer to Wizard.
“Didn’t the Lenders pass off the junk papers to the big Secondary Market of CDO’s …. I am still unclear as to how the whole system put the losses back on the pass the bad paper
I still don’t fully get it.”
Of course the 1st rule also applies.
So, who is actually taking the bulk of the losses and who is actually being bailed out . My point keeps being that I thought the risk was spread out . Did any one single investment section bet more than the rest ? Did the unregulated Investment Banks have more at stake than say other sectors . Why not total disclosure on
who is getting hit ? Also, aren’t investors for most part locked
into the CDO’s or MBS’s to the point where they can’t collect on the principal in a lot of cases at this point in time or they are restricted . Is it a matter of the fact that they don’t want to sell these asset now ,yet they are being forced to because of demand
for what principal is left of the investors ?
In other words ,is a big bad MARGIN call situation going on and the holders of the investments can’t even cope with that ,like in the same sense as you would have a run on the Banks .
I mean this is just so unclear as to exactly where the log-jam is
at this point . I find the media to be so unclear as to the fine points of this melt-down .
I am not entirely sure, but have a feeling they are really trying to save the pension plans, especially the large, public pension plans.
Also, the insurance companies and large mutual funds seem to have a fair share of this “bad” paper.
Oh, also many municipal governments hold this paper, as far as I can tell.
Any pol who stands in the way of stimulus risks catching the blame for causing the financial tsunami in progress.
Congress warned on delaying stimulus
Financial rescue package details to come tomorrow
By David Cho and Michael A. Fletcher
THE WASHINGTON POST
2:00 a.m. February 9, 2009
Today: President Barack Obama will hold a town-hall-style meeting in Indiana to promote the stimulus plan, then convene his first White House news conference at 5 p.m. PST.
Tomorrow: The Senate expected is to approve the stimulus package; Obama will attend a town-hall-style meeting in Florida.
Wednesday: Obama will discuss the stimulus plan in Northern Virginia; conference committee could begin negotiations on House and Senate bills.
WASHINGTON – Senior Obama administration officials sought to intensify pressure on Congress yesterday to pass a massive stimulus package for the crumbling economy, warning lawmakers of the consequences of delay while rescheduling the unveiling of their financial rescue plan to keep the spotlight on Capitol Hill.
The political mistake was raising expectations for this second stimulus throughout the 2008 electoral cycle. It’s just bad politics - to limit one’s options so early. Now, this stimulus bill carries much more political weight than it ever should have.
The better approach would have been to say nothing and then introduce it after January 20th. I really get the feeling they threw the kitchen sink into that election - which is sad because the hothead was such a weak candidate anyway.
Obama to Republicans - “hey, we’re going to go over Niagara in a barrel! Come join us! Please?” The Republicans would have to be suicidal to vote for these stimulus packages that everyone knows will not do anything. The Democrats are really backed into a corner. All they’ll be able to say during the 2010 election cycle is “we inherited all the problems from Bush”. It will be very interesting to see if that works for them.
It will. I guarantee it. Not just in 2010 but in 2012 too.
Just like it worked for FDR for 3 elections.
“I didn’t start it, so it wasn’t my fault. I need more time to get us out of this mess caused by X.”
That may very well be true unfortunately.
Probably 25% of the people that voted for Obama did so because they thought he would fix things right away, and when that doesn’t happen they will take it out on the Democrats in 2010.
No, the problems were still theoretical back in the fall. The mass layoffs hadn’t even started except for a few on Wall*Street.
People were just tired of Bush.
Jose Jimenez for President of the US in 2032.
In otherwords, 700 billion spent by DoughHead in November 2008 is somehow different in your mind than the 700 billion spent by the current president?
Gotcha.
Messiah is spending the half of the 700 billion plus the Porkulus money. So a little more than doughhead although doughhead spent too much also.
Porkulus, lol, that’s splendiferous.
Obama isn’t REQUIRED to spend the 2nd half of the $700 Billion but is going to anyway, so I get $350 billion Bush, $350 + $827 = $1.177 Trillion Obama. So far.
I hate the Porkulus also.
And I feel, as do most here, that the best course is to save the good institutions not the bad.
Furthermore, if stimulus it must be, how about for real infrastructure and energy (including nuclear, solar, wind)
-
However, let’s be fair.
Doughhead and Iraq, how much exactly was that?
(rounded to the nearest quarter T)
+1 on stimulus, especially nuclear and natural gas. I want us to be energy independent from the Middle East and any other parts of the world.
Not too sure if importing uranium would be any better than oil.
Correction: $5 Trillion Bush, 2001-2008
$0, Obama.
Skip,
We have the ability to produce tons and tons of Uranium in the US.
Your point exactly. There is no difference.
psssst…..we did not change the Congress on Jan 20, 2009.
We sure didn’t. And who is to blame for that? I can give you a clue starts with a “v” and ends with a “r”
Give me a clue, are there a couple hundred million of them?
Vlad the Impaler??
Skip and Blue,
I think it boils down to intent. I don’t like the stimulouse either but I haven’t heard one Repub say, “it didn’t work under GWB so that’s why we’re opposing it.”
In other words, it’s not like they learned something from last time, they’re just being buttheads.
or actually paying attention to their constituents, unlike my senator Arlen Specter.
cougar91
Sorry, I stole your thunder. I just posted the link to that article you pasted above(Dr. Hussman).
America’s New Rescuer: Japan
By David M. Smick
Sunday, February 8, 2009
Here’s a disillusioning thought: Solving the financial crisis may be beyond the capacity of government finances. The likely $3 trillion price tag, give or take, of both saving the banks and stimulating the economy is causing interest rates to inch up. U.S. Treasury long-term rates have already risen from 2.1 percent just before Christmas to nearly 3 percent. …
Consider the situation: Tokyo has lost control over its soaring currency. The yen has risen nearly 30 percent against the dollar in just the past 18 months, despite the dollar strengthening against most other world currencies. This dramatic surge (the result of once-aggressive Japanese buyers of foreign bonds bringing their savings back home as the world slashes interest rates to Japanlike levels) is killing Japan’s global competitiveness. Locked in its own currency straitjacket, the export-dependent Japanese economy is in freefall. The collapse of Japanese exports to China hasn’t helped matters. To put it simply, Japan is as desperate for currency relief as we are for credit relief. …”
WaPo
japan has some of the best technology in the world if they decide to work less the world losses out . Why they continue to bust it for US dollars I really can’t understand ?
raise the price on all japananse cars and we Americans will be less rich and you bet US auto makers will raise prices.
The Death of ‘Rational Man’
“…But everyone else had those same numbers. Why did Roubini act? The answer is that he decided to trust his gut, which told him there was trouble ahead, rather than Wall Street’s “wisdom of the crowd,” which — as reflected in stock prices — said everything was rosy. He concluded that the markets were not pricing in the degree of risk that was actually present in housing.
“The rational man theory of economics has not worked,” Roubini said last month at a session of the World Economic Forum at Davos. That’s why he and other prominent economists are paying more attention to behavioral economics, which starts from the premise that economic decisions, like other aspects of human behavior, are influenced by irrational psychological factors. …”
WaPo
“The rational man theory of economics has not worked,” Roubini said last month at a session of the World Economic Forum at Davos.
When the f#ck has it ever worked?
For brief moments, perhaps, but assuming consumers are rational (or more accurately, rational in the sense that academics think is rational) is an inherently flawed premise.
A dismal science, indeed.
LMAO — The rational man theory of economics has not worked. What’s more, to argue human behavior is influenced by ‘irrational’ psychological factors suggests these guys still don’t get it.
(and one hour ago…)
Roubini: Anglo-Saxon model has failed
FT
The Anglo-Saxon model of supervision and regulation of the financial system has failed, Nouriel Roubini, chairman of RGE Monitor and professor of economics at New York University, told the Financial Times on Monday.
Answering questions from FT.com readers, Prof Roubini, who is widely credited with having predicted the current financial crisis, said the supervisory system “relied on self-regulation that, in effect, meant no regulation; on market discipline that does not exist when there is euphoria and irrational exuberance; on internal risk management models that fail because – as a former chief executive of Citi put it – when the music is playing you gotta stand up and dance.”
“All the pillars of Basel II have already failed even before being implemented,” he added, referring to the internationally agreed set of banking regulations that are forcing banks to set aside more capital to maintain their existing lending.”
If humans were rational, companies wouldn’t spend $1.6 billion a year on marketing.
A individual educated by the government and mainstream economists will make perfectly rational, yet financially catastrophic, decisions.
I think that the “rational man” theory is correct; however, it must factor in rational decisions made from inaccurate information. It also must factor in different value systems. The concept of different value systems is beyond politicians and mainstream economists whom want everyone to conform to their world view.
Traditional economists must also drop the idea that “value” is inherent and “measurable” and “equal” among all individuals. To concede this point would undermine all of their efforts to establish a “correct/fair price” for stocks, housing, interest rates, etc.
Saudis show the way for Washington policymakers
By Henny Sender
February 7 2009
In March of 2005, a year before the Saudi Arabian stock market reached its peak, the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency summoned its charges among the banks to its elegant Riyadh headquarters.
Concerned that investors were putting money into shares without regard for fundamentals, the central bank’s officials warned the banks not to finance excessive speculation.
“We were accused of micro-managing. They said that the SAMA was intrusive when we said ’slow down’,” recalls Muhammad Al-Jasser, the SAMA vice-governor. “Now they want to kiss our foreheads.” …
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/97b6b904-f4bb-11dd-8e76-0000779fd2ac.html
Ahhh…its good to be the King!
But, it is impossible to see a bubble until it is too late, and more damaging to lean against one, even it you could see it, then just cleaning up afterwords…. So sayith Greenspan, Lord of all bubbles.
We have $780 billion do I hear 790 come on folks this is an emergency 780 780 780.. 790! in the corner! We have 790 790 do i hear 800 800 we must move fast 800 800 …going once at $790 billion.. going twice … 800! We have 800 up front thank you sir DO i hear $810 billion 810 810 there is no time to waste folks 810 anyone? Anyone 810 810 We have 810! 810! Do i hear $820 billion $820 billion please folks dig deep our lives depend on this 820 820 820..
And NOT A DIME for people like me who could use a little break on my credit cards….either a 0% for 5 years or $1000 off on principle…this is really truly the best way to use TARP money.
help us little guys. What good are tax breaks if i don’t pay taxes?
As I said 2 years ago after there was a long weekend thread on “what would you do”?
It is my assertion that the root problem is too much debt and that we can not get out of it until a large portion of that debt is nationalized OFF THE BACKs of the little people.
Jon Stewart on the Daily show recently threw out the same conclusion. (Oh know, now my idea is just a joke.)
The Dr. Hussman article referenced above seems to make the same argument. We’re dealing with the affects of the debt on the owed, but not the burden that debt places on the people that owe it.
Why don’t you become a tutor for dim-witted MoTU spawn? Put that lack of a warning label on trophy wives to work for you.
Billions for space and not a trillion for stimulus!
UBS arm seeks to lure US brokers from rivals
By Francesco Guerrera and Greg Farrell in New York
Published: February 9 2009 02:00 | Last updated: February 9 2009 02:00
UBS The brokerage arm of UBS has launched an aggressive hiring spree in the US, offering financial advisers large pay packages to lure them away from rivals such as Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley and Citigroup.
The move is striking because it comes as UBS’s competitors are shedding thousands of jobs. Brokers sell financial products to wealthy private clients and do not place bank capital at risk.
The bank, which has suffered big credit-related losses and received a capital injection from the Swiss government, promised some brokers compensation equal to almost three times their yearly profits, according to documents seen by the Financial Times.
UBS Financial Services has added more than 400 brokers to its 8,000-strong network in the past few months, insiders say….”
FT
What did Bank of America get for its Merrill purchase? lol The talent has left the building and the rest are being lured away.
strange - isn’t this the same company that lost lots of wealthy US clients lately, due to pressure from the IRS?
or have they figured out a way to do the same black money tricks for wealthy clients by working from the US??
Politics is damaging the credibility of economics
By Clive Crook
February 8 2009
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/437694de-f602-11dd-a9ed-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
Last week Voz pointed out that Mr. Paul Krugman had turned into a depression/deflationista and my comment was Mr. Krugman is wrong. Maybe wrong is the improper term, but instead of rational economics, we now get black/white and the world is multi-colored.
“A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week.”
Gen. George S. Patton
With all honesty guys, what type of jobs do you believe will be available in the US in the upcoming years?
With the massive layoffs that are taking place, I see a large number of high-tech jobs being moved overseas, a lot of retail jobs dissapearing, no construction/contracting jobs avaiable, the financial sector has been also affected tremendously.
What’s the future of this country?
Bridge/Highway and public utilities is still roaring. I just copped another 4+ year gig.
My BIL’s firm does road/bridge building and they are laying off. CAT is laying off, etc. One instance does not make a trend.
How about multiple projects coming off design and hitting the street at designers estimate(meaning the price will double) of $3billion, $400million and $100 million?
And in your backyard there’s a $500 million project just getting legs. And that’s just one of them.
Bridge and Highway isn’t my gig but I’ll wager there is a herd of it headed for design. And as far as our type of work in heavy civil and geotechnical and subsurface work (water, wastewater, dams), I’ve never seen this amount of work hitting the streets in my career.
Telephone sanitizers, hairdressers, and advertising account executives obviously.
Which reminds me: we urgently need more money for rockets
“what type of jobs do you believe will be available in the US in the upcoming years?”
nursing home aides/assistants
clergy
I had this exact conversation over the weekend.
One poster on another blog said that the obvious end game to this mess is principle writedowns…. so get on with it already.
To which I said, that was only 1 part of the problem. The bigger problem is that the for the last 15-20 years, the economy has been becoming more and more dependant on bubbles. First it was easy credit through S&Ls, then the tech bubble, then housing.
Even if we could make the collapsing debt bubble magically go away(which, of course, we can’t), it would not spark a new bubble to employ everyone that has been living on housing. There are too many houses, too many office buildings, and too many strip malls, so there will be no rebound in construction.
AND… These two, debt collapse and lack of jobs, are not the sum of the problem. There is a major demographic poop-storm about to hit as all the Baby Boomers try to retire. We can’t build an economy on 75% tax rate on those under 50 to provide pensions, Social Security, and healthcare to those over 65.
To answer your question, I have NO IDEA, where the jobs will be. I suspect a lot of them will be the jobs that, just a few years ago, Americans will not do.
Picking vegtables for $3 per hour. We won’t be able to afford the imports.
“…I’m intensely optimistic about the long-term future. It seems to me a lock cinch that the advance of technology alone — and nanotechnology in particular — will result in a future of incredible abundance and prosperity, and that alone will solve most of the problems that plague us. Space migration, intelligence increase, and life extension will be commonplace realities. These things, plus the growth of both knowledge and its accessibility and the concomitant rise of the individual from the group, will constantly diminish politics as an element of life. The future will be much better than anything visualized on Star Trek, and will arrive much sooner…”
Mr. Doug Casey
I agree with Mr. Casey.
interesting how technology does not slow down with econmic cycles.
Historically technology does slow with economic cycles. Technology breakthroughs typically come along in shock waves, at the bottom of economic cycles. A read on Kondratief might interest you.
depends on how you define ‘much sooner’. Most of these technologies need at last one generation (30 years or so) before they have the capacity to solve some of the current worldwide problems.
I remember very well the wild expectations regarding space travel (including craft traveling at half the speed of light), hypersonic air travel etc. in the seventies; or the wild expectations regarding genetic engineering, cancer drugs etc. in the eighties. It’s now one generation later and almost nothing has come out of it, and for spaceflight that is the optimistic view. On the other side, there were surprises like the internet that hardly anyone expected.
I don’t think most on this board will see the real blossom of the technologies mentioned by Casy - in the long run we are all dead.
I will be dead, but I have hope for my children, grandkids and any future generations.
The items for the future have already been discovered, finding uses for all the technologies and making the necessary improvements has not yet occurred.
The fax machine was invented during world war II. The uses were not fulfilled til the ’70s when the Japanese put their hands on it.
will constantly diminish politics as an element of life
Ha, I was with him until this point. More likely it will be nothing BUT politics.
I think you’re indirectly hitting on the biggest problem. In a global economy there is an abundance of labour and not enough useful roles* to fill. Supply and demand dictate prices, and wages are another price. There will always be work to be done, but will there be enough to keep enough hands working instead of taking up weapons?
*I say useful roles instead of jobs, because let’s face it, there are lots of useless jobs.
what about firefighters, like they need nowadays in Oz?
(at least as long as the housing market has not bottomed …)
My son is working as a mechanic in a custom fire engine shop. He is learning practical mechanics and repair. Business is booming. New fire engine sales are tanked.
Perhaps we will head toward more servicable products as we learn to spell the words frugality and sustainable.
Private security to protect gated communities from the seething Third World masses without. And to deal with all the bored youth within.
Very little new was added so nothing much will change in the immediate future, imo. The entire economy expanded due to the Bubble, and it will now shrink back to a sustainable level.
Where two butcher shops once thrived, the new one, created during the bubble, will fail.
Those few innovations directly suppported by the bubble’s expansion or contraction, like The St. Joseph’s Statue Emporium, will disappear.
I just picture in my mind all this money coming into the American Investment markets from around the World ,during the boom times,and
it created all this money that needed to be placed somewhere ,so it ended up being directed toward real estate and Credit Card lending and fueled the whole debt cycle . Nobody was denied credit during the boom .
So ,if that money is tied up in CDO’s and other securities related to debt ,
isn’t it just a matter of the losses being taken by the investors . If a account isn’t insured ,than why is it the responsibility of Taxpayers of the USA to cover losses ? Its just like when stockholders lose value ,they don’t get bailed out do they ?
Just curious: how does a bankrupt or near-bankrupt company taking back parts of an already bankrupt company somehow make it MORE “viable”???
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29096264
I hope this wasn’t posted previously.
From NYmag
They actually kind of have a point. Wall Street didn’t force Americans to take out loans on houses they couldn’t afford. They merely encouraged them by extending credit to people that couldn’t pay it back, which they would have known if they hadn’t been so busy buying and selling the complex securities that they, in fact, barely understood themselves. And there is another force that contributed just as much to the mortgage meltdown, one that is as much to blame as the guys in midtown.
The real villains here, the truly bad seeds at the heart of this crisis, have gone unpunished thus far and are still in operation. They are Jeff Lewis and Ryan Brown of Bravo’s Flipping Out, Armando and Veronica Montelongo of TLC’s Flip This House, Kristen Kemp of TLC’s The Property Ladder, Kendra Todd of HGTV’s My House Is Worth WHAT?, and the TLC, Bravo, HGTV, and Fine Living networks in general. All of them encouraged people to take out massive loans in order to buy and renovate homes and sell them at a profit when, really, most people have terrible taste, and furthermore, are bad at laying tile. These shows are still on! WHY?
We’d also like to see the team responsible for MTV’s Cribs, the set designers of the loft on Friends, Page Davis from Trading Spaces, and the editors of Martha Stewart Living, Real Simple, and the dearly departed Domino brought in front of the House Financial Services Committee to explain themselves, along with everyone else who, over the past ten years, has colluded to convince the American public that if they weren’t living in a wholly renovated open-plan home with recessed lighting, granite countertops, and freakishly organized closets, they might as well be living in a cave. We trust Barney Frank will bring them to justice!
I don’t think Kirsten Kemp should be lumped in with the others. “Property Ladder” was more realistic than the other shows. Her show routinely showed people who lost lots of money or failed to make any.
Many times she would point out that the flippers bought the wrong house, paid too much for the house, picked the wrong location, were unrealistic with their asking price, etc.
She would also point out the shoddy work and bad designs that were done.
My favorite was the guy in Georgia that put a toilet right in front of a window!
“My favorite was the guy in Georgia that put a toilet right in front of a window!”
he should start working for the Dutch government! We have a huge new office building where all the toilet rooms had glass fronts (top to bottom, both sides) plus colored lighting after sunset. On second thought they exchanged it for frosted glass plus some extra shielding…
“Two of Switzerland’s largest banks, UBS and Credit Suisse, are set to announce combined losses for 2008 of 29 billion Swiss francs later this week, the Sonntag newspaper reported Sunday.
According to the report, UBS will announce an annual loss of 21 billion Swiss francs (14 billion euros, 18 billion dollars) on Tuesday, the largest in Swiss history and reflecting the fact the company was one of the banks hardest hit by the US subprime loan crisis.
Last November, UBS posted a net profit of 296 million Swiss francs for the third quarter following a year of losses, but warned that a renewed loss was looming for the following quarter.
Under a rescue plan unveiled in October, the Swiss government injected six billion francs in new capital to UBS and lent 54 billion dollars to the bank to transfer its non-liquid assets into a separate fund.
The massive spread of so-called “toxic” assets — mainly linked to financial instruments now worth very little because of the US home-loan crisis — throughout the global banking system is at the core of the crisis. …”
BreitBart
If UBS and Credit Suisse go under, so does the Swiss Franc. Their combined bailout needs are as much as 4X Switzerland’s total GDP. Europe is toast.
14 billion euros this time; does that include the bonuses for the new profit record? (the last one provided 3 billion in bonuses for the Swiss banksters …)
don’t worry about Europe hoz; the Dutch Finance Minister is going to buy all the failed banks and make Netherlands the financial center of Europe (that should keep our housing market inflated a little longer).
Obama is going to Ft. Myers to speak about his plan. There’ll be, like, three people left by the time he gets there… LMFAO.
Barack, turn the lights off on your way out. Thank you
Ooh, I hope Obama mentions the guy that was arrested for humping the inflatable dolls in the Publix parking lot. Clearly that man doesn’t need help if he can afford TWO dolls.
Maybe it’s not that bad afterall…
Are all these bottom callers trying to coax out the knife catchers? oh, I mean fence sitters?
Moody’s Economy.com Study: U.S. House Price Bottom by Year’s End, 36% Off Peak
“Notwithstanding the intensifying economic gloom, the bottom of the housing downturn is within sight for the nation,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com. “Presuming we see strong action by policymakers to help support the economy and the housing market, prices will begin to recover by the end of this year.”
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/090209/20090209005327.html?.v=1
bottom around the corner? as sure as Moody’s rating for subslime mortgages
After reflecting on our entire government’s (left and right) performance over the past week or two, I think we are firmly on our way to Hoover-Ville. I tried my best to look at all possible positive outcomes. However, it’s pretty clear and as expected, confidence is rapidly slipping away.
The stimulus and latest bank bailout will pass, but in two months, if not less, it will become obvious that they cannot work. The bank bailout will propose a floor for the banks’ toxic assets, to lure in private investors. But this floor cannot be too high, or investors won’t buy. Nor can it be too low, or banks won’t sell. The basic problem will remain as it always has been: there is no way to valuate the banks’ toxic assets. Then it’s on to plan B - let the banks fail as they should have, billions ago.
Just listening to Obama in Indidna introducing the members of congress they had brought there “to get in on the fun”. Then went on to say what he had inherited, I turned it off.
It is an essential part of “Grandiosity” to make perfectly clear that everything wrong is somebody else’s fault.
The populace is going to be shocked that Candy-Crappin’ Unicorn™ that they elected can’t actually cr@p candy.
Nor shoot rainbows out the arse……………..
I thought we inherited the plague from the sub prime home buyers and their alt A cousins.
I thought it was the pigs on wall st. and the dumb ass lenders.
Now I hear the Bush administration is going on trial for crimes against the U.S.
Where’s that whiskey?
Are you suggesting there was any point in the last year where you thought the government could have done something to have prevented the collapse?
To me this is like watching a hamster try to escape an aquarium. He doesn’t realize he’s doomed to failure and it’s fun* to see what he comes up with.
*fun: novel new ways to screw your grandkids.
Nope. However, they could make a bad situation worse.
Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) — Daiwa SB Investments Ltd. is urging clients to put their money into Brazil, Mexico and Turkey after the yen’s 55 percent gain against their currencies made emerging markets a bargain. A year ago, it wasn’t recommending any developing nation funds.
“A lot of assets have gotten extremely cheap and Japanese investors are looking to park their money somewhere,” said Kenichiro Ikezawa, who oversees about $3 billion as a fund manager at the second-largest brokerage in Tokyo. “Emerging markets including Brazil, Mexico and Turkey look attractive. We would like to invest more in such countries.”
After a year when the yen rallied against 177 currencies, Japan’s biggest money managers say the best is over in the foreign exchange market. The nation’s investors bought 940 billion yen ($10.3 billion) more international stocks and bonds than they sold in the five days to Jan. 31, the seventh week of net purchases, according to the Ministry of Finance.
Japanese companies are also taking advantage of the strengthening currency, spending record amounts on mergers and acquisitions outside the country. The total value of overseas takeovers more than tripled to $76.8 billion last year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
The yen rallied 60 percent against the Brazilian real, 55 percent versus the Mexican peso, and 62 percent against the Turkish lira in 2008 as the global economic slump led investors to pull billions of dollars out of emerging-market assets to repay low-cost loans funded in Japan’s currency. …”
Got it Voz, Faster? Thems with the moneys set the rules.
I noticed that the NZ$ is rallying a bit lately (e.g. against the euro); usually that is a sign that the yen carry trade is resuming. But seen against last years decline it is nothing more than a weak bounce (up to now).
Not sure investing in Mehico is a great idea in any way shape or form these days. It’s being increasingly overrun by druglords - even in touristy areas, e.g.:
Warrior in Drug Fight Soon Becomes a Victim
Mexican General Seized, Slain in Cancun
By William Booth
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, February 9, 2009; Page A01
CANCUN, Mexico — The general didn’t get much time. After a long, controversial career, Brig. Gen. Mauro Enrique Tello Quiñones retired from active duty last month and moved to this Caribbean playground to work for the Cancun mayor and fight the drug cartels that have penetrated much of Mexican society. He lasted a week.
Tello, 63, along with his bodyguard and a driver, were kidnapped in downtown Cancun last Monday evening, taken to a hidden location, methodically tortured, then driven out to the jungle and shot in the head. Their bodies were found Tuesday in the cab of a pickup truck on the side of a highway leading out of town. An autopsy revealed that both the general’s arms and legs had been broken.
Plus see all the recent problems in Juarez, Tijuana, etc.
It may not be so much the drug lords themselves that will kill the economy, but the headlines killing the tourist trade.
If your currency is up 55% in the last year and the target company’s stock price is down 50%, the risk of purchasing stock or the company is significantly reduced.
As foreigners fled to safety in the Yen, the longer term Yen investors can take advantage of the double profit by purchasing assets at these current knocked down prices. e.g. Vale is trading at $17, but in Yen valuation the stock had gone 4880 to 900 while still having double digit profit growth. Oil is $40/bbl US down from the 150 high, but in Yen oil has gone from 16,420 to 3,690.
From a Yen perspective the world looks cheap - 1990 prices.
There has to be some advantage to getting into the Depression party first.
The ElPasoTimes DOT com website has continuing coverage of problems just over the border in Juarez, Mexico, it’s worth checking every few days by those interested.
war zone from what I read
Two questions for my best friends who don’t know they’re my best friends — Hoz, Voz, the Profe Oso and my personal favorite, Faster Pussycat (El Gato Rapido) — so I hope not to be mocked for my lack of knowledge:
1) What is an acceptable P/E ratio?
2) when you guys say “low volume” what’s the range?
The Hubby’s making me put some of our savings where my mouth is. Mainly, I’ve been spouting off what you guys are saying. I need to learn a lot.
BTW, Exeter, I am a public employee and so am currently off work and off to stimulate the economy at the evil empire, Disneyland. But I get a discount because I’m a teacher, my husband’s getting in free (it’s his birthday) and we’re bringing lunch. Oh, and I got free parking covered.
Stimulate this, Dow.
[1] Depends. But in this cycle, I expect both the P/E to go down to about 10, and the E to drop further (double whammy.)
[2] When I say “low volume”, I compare the current volume to some reasonable “past average”.
Follow-up question if I may - what’s the best source of info for true S&P P/E ratios (summary)?
I have a link to a spreadsheet that I’ve seen on the S&P website - not sure where I got the link since I can’t find it linked from anywhere - I just have the absolute URL (will post it in a minute).
Here’s my link (excel sheet).
Is that relatively current and good data?
Thanks.
Public employees are cool. Enjoy your stay. I made our reservations to Disney just yesterday. 40% off less DisneyDollars racked up on business credit card plus free flights cost us $450 total for a week.
PE ratio is just one tool. If a company is growing 35% per year a PE ratio of 40+ is more than acceptable. If a company has limited growth prospects (e.g. MSFT), then a PE of 10 may be to high.
Where do the earnings come from? How much of earnings are paid back to shareholders (dividends and increasing reinvestment in the company)? How much of the earnings are paid to the directors (aka why you don’t buy financials)?
If the stock normally trades 10MM each day and goes to 3MM. That is a drop in volume. Increase in volume generally means increase in liquidity. Low volume makes higher risk.
IMHO buying US stocks, at this time, as a long term investment is fraught with unnecessary risk. Safer to buy in Nigeria. (Exception unless you know something that the market does not know - not inside information, but maybe your teenage kids now shop at XYZ store instead of Zoomies. A new trend? Ahead of the curve?) Little things you know make a huge difference in your investments.
What he said.
What Cat said.
Hey, I may not be an expert on markets, but I am an expert on Disneyland! If you need any inside info there (and there are tons of things you need to know if you’ve not been in awhile), then let me know!
There’s some great inside info on the web about Disneyland.
BTW, Exeter, I am a public employee and so am currently off work and off to stimulate the economy at the evil empire, Disneyland. But I get a discount because I’m a teacher, my husband’s getting in free (it’s his birthday) and we’re bringing lunch. Oh, and I got free parking covered.
LOL! This is why Disney will be in trouble. Maybe more clicks at the turnstiles, but once inside the parks “guests” will slam their wallets shut. Which is kind of a shame, as Disneyland has much better merchandise that Walt Disney World. Cest la vie!
Good luck with that. By the time that number is available for mass consumption the opportunity or warning has already passed.
hllnwlz.
read Hoz’s post again.
And then remember this: The market will do as much damage to as many people participating as possible. If I were you, I would not begin with individual equities.
ETF’s are a probably better way to go (just make sure you find one that is very liquid and not on the chopping block for liquidation).
Hoz, thanks for the tip on UYG a few weeks back; sold today for a nice 15% profit.
Feels to me like almost time to get more short financials again… Thoughts anyone?
That depends what you think will happen tomorrow, and what will happen.
My suspicion is that financials are already up on the rumor, but will end up down on the news.
But I’m not looking or a day-trade position—-more like a weeks-to-months trade position.
I personally don’t think they’ve gained as much as they will when/if a “bad bank” is announced. I almost bought UYG last week, but am staying in cash for now.
Yeah, my confidence in my opinion is not overly strong.
Hi. The other day I wrote about a Capitol Hill townhouse with English basement apartment. 913 North Carolina Ave, SE, Wash, DC 20003. Listed for $435K. Under contract in a few a days for $10K under listing price. This was a Countrywide forclosure. Last sold in 2005 for $630 ish. The the $425K is about 2000 pricing. Still overvalued I think by $150K. Hopefully there go the comps. :). But still many many wishing prices. Houses still listed here for $700k +. Anything under $500k is tiny and or bad shape and or bad part of the Hill. On my tour of open houses if I see esp. young couples starting out I chat them up and tell them to to wait. 2 years ago few were interested in listening. These days they’re all ears.
I looked for that house in the MLS when you mentioned it but couldn’t find anything. I guess it wasn’t listed?
Capitol Hill has a long way to go. I remember looking at houses there about 5 years ago and being appalled at the asking prices. That was back when a giant old “grand dame” on Lincoln park would go for under $700k. We have a long way to go.
Anon, can you please share a pointer/link/MLS#? Thanks…
That sure sounds like good progress to me! I haven’t seen much going for 2000 pricing yet in the Seattle area.
Even most REOs on the MLS still seem to be asking 2005/6/7 prices.
Duh. Ignore the post above; he was talking about the _real_ Capitol Hill, not the Cap Hill neighborhood in Seattle.
(smack!)
Must not post before coffee kicks in…
That’s like, five blocks from the ghetto. Enjoy your future.
Try, try again:
http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/
Politics is reducing economics to a truly dismal science
February 9, 2009
“…The problem is not that Mr Krugman questions the consensus on trade (if indeed he does), or that Mr Barro questions the consensus on fiscal policy (as he certainly does). It is that both set the consensus aside so carelessly. In doing so, these stars of the profession destroy the credibility of their own discipline. Mr Krugman gives liberals the economics they want. Mr Barro gives conservatives the same service. They narrow or deny the common ground. Why does this matter? Because the views of readers inclined to one side or the other are further polarised; and in the middle, those of no decided allegiance conclude that economics is bunk.
Politics and economics are always difficult to keep apart. But the problem is getting worse, perhaps because political splits are deepening, or perhaps because the lack of disinterested economic advice is more keenly felt with so much at stake….”
Mostly OT - a buddy just sent me this:
I have finally figured out the difference between a bribe, a gift, a tip, a quid pro quo, and an off-the-books honorarium in kind.
A bribe is when you get caught.
The same wag sent me this satire, relative to our discussion of Chavez’s likely IQ compared to Castro’s:
“Our politicians always have to make it complicated. We should give Afghanistan to the Russians (with an option on Iran, if they want it) in return for their permission to conquer Venezuela, which would not be hard for us to do. The half of the Venezuelan poor who aren’t already working illegally in the States could come here, and in return we’d develop their beaches into discount retirement home communities for our elderly, which would solve everyone’s problem.”
Hey - nothing wrong with a good gift amongst friends.
Hope. Change. New chief of staff living for five years in Clinton pollster’s basement.
I saw in today’s Journal that the latest proposal for that 15K homedebtor handout is no longer for “first time homebuyers” only!
So Harry Homedebtor, who just walked away from hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt (that he most likely lied on an application to get, and won’t have to pay taxes on what he kept free and clear), can pick up and start again! WHEEEE!
You forgot to mention the cars, vacations, and other toys he got for free when he used his HELOC and then walked on the debt. And oh yeah, he probably also got to live free in his house for six months while it was being foreclosed.
What a country! Everything really is free in America just as that song in “West Side Story” says.
You’re forgetting about that pesky little requirement of qualifying nowadays. If he’s walked away or even become late, he’s f’ed.
Maybe. The game is not fully in play yet!
At deeper issue, lots of people see good tax haven bennies in low yielding treasury Bills, TIPS, series I bonds, gold (to hold) and growth stocks for the long run. The Messiah scared them away from taxable events when he pledged to raise taxes on high incomes and pledged to “spread the wealth around.” And people had enough of watching irresponsible types get the rewards and are tightening up. This tightening is a powerful vote against loose credit and irresponsibility. The Messiah is pushing on a string and he’s going to get more and more frustrated about it.
You are listening to white noise from where ever you get your information.
The government is lowering rates on the “safe securities” to force you to make riskier investments.
The president of the US has little to do with it.
“The government is lowering rates on the “safe securities” to force you to make riskier investments. ”
Hoz, that’s the same way I’ve been looking at it! And it strikes me as the height of moral hazard to try to force people to take on risk in a risky environment.
Plus the thing is, I can happily take a 0% return to avoid risk especially when they are trying to force me to make riskier investments.
Will others feel the same way? Time will tell…
It is the way to look at it and it is also a reason to invest, the fed will cover your ass.
>Hoz, that’s the same way I’ve been looking at it! And it strikes me as the height of moral hazard to try to force people to take on risk in a risky environment.
But if enough people take on risk it will automatically become low risk environment, of course. That’s the whole point.
We respectfully disagree.
Sincerely -
- Homebuyers of the last 6 years
One of life’s paradoxes:
It really does,…, uh, until it doesn’t.
Packman et al:
A bond is an asset
stocks are assets
gold is an asset
and
Houses are liabilities.
Buying a house whether in 100% cash or finance is increasing the liability side of a personal balance sheet. Going from a low interest rate bond to a higher interest rate bond does not change a personal balance sheet. Nor does the balance sheet change when swapping any asset.
Come one man - I know better. A house is no more an “asset” or a “liability” than stocks are. Either of them can be paid for with cash - i.e. as pure assets, or they can be leveraged to the hilt - as pure liabilities. In the latter case though they’re not actually just liabilities - they’re still assets, it’s just that there’s an equal debt liability associated with them. Either one can generate revenue (house via rent income or stock via company revenue) which may or may not exceed its expenses (house maintenance etc. vs. company operating expenses etc.) and thus generate earnings or debt.
The point is that just the act of a mass of people buying into an asset doesn’t necessarily decrease its risk - this is especially true of stocks of course, as we say during the dot-com bust. It can also be true of bonds even - they can still default if the issuing entity goes tits-up, which is starting in spades these days on the corporate front and will be ramping up on the muni side soon (e.g. see California’s downgrade last week).
Sorry Packy ol pal
Houses are a liability
“a liability is defined as an obligation of an entity arising from past transactions or events, the settlement of which may result in the transfer or use of assets, provision of services or other yielding of economic benefits in the future.”
I agree with you that it does not get rid of risk. Look at the history of bubble markets.
Never would I have expected the government to allow a liability to turn into a massive bubble. 35 years ago most individuals were taught that housing was a liability. Now they are taught they are assets. It is wrong.
OK I know we’re picking nits - but if you pay cash for a house, there isn’t an obligation (liability), at least with regards to debt payment; same as for stocks etc. There is however I will grant a liability / obligation with respect to property taxes - though the same is true of stocks actually - there are liabilities with respect to annual corporate fees and taxes, e.g. the real estate taxes or leases for the facilities etc. If you consider the annual taxes to be a part of the expense structure, then I still don’t see any difference.
Like I say - you can borrow money to buy stocks (e.g. in a margin account), same as you can borrow money to buy a house. The debt structure is somewhat different, but it’s nonetheless still borrowed money with the asset held as collateral.
The main difference is that the recurring expenses - taxes etc. (obligations) in the case of a house are normally paid directly by the owner, whereas the expenses of a company are paid in proxy by hired accountants. That’s not necessarily true though for small private companies (say the corner deli), which may still have shares, just not traded publicly. In many cases there the expenses may be paid directly by the shareholders, thus having a more direct affect of the share value vs. indirect (but nonetheless real) in a large public company.
Going to bed - so if we want to continue we’ll have to in the morning. Nighty night.
Couple of interesting articles on the local newswire today:
TORONTO (AP) - The number of Canadian consumers and businesses going bankrupt soared nearly 47 percent in December.
The Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy said Monday 8,299 individuals and businesses went bankrupt in December, up from 5,659 for December, 2007, a jump of 46.7 percent.
Canadian bankruptcies soar 47 percent
WASHINGTON - It’s an ugly but growing trend: millions of homeowners are upside down, meaning they owe more on their homes than they’re actually worth.
Some statistics show as many as 29 percent of mortgages are upside down in D.C. metro area.
Wave of Upside Down Homeowners Slams Area
It’s called decoupling, darling! You must’ve missed the memo. LOL
Hey FPSS, good to see you back!
Yeah, I had a great time in Philly. Posted something about that above.
So for the denizens here, I have a couple of recommendations in Philly.
Philly has great BYOB’s. Sure, they are a little pricey but we can all afford a great meal once in a while. (I went to Matyson. Completely excellent!)
For hozzie and vozzie and all the beer-lovers, I give you: Monk’s Cafe. (Look it up!)
The Reading Market is awesome. Ate lunch there almost daily. Very reasonable. Great market for foodies in general although I didn’t feel like schlepping anything so I didn’t buy anything.
Lots of small nifty restaurants just about everywhere but you gotta get off the beaten path.
Monk’s Monk’s Monk’s!
The bomb.
The beer’s great, but the food is pretty damn good, too.
You live in Chicago!
Have you never been to Hopleaf on Clark St. just south of Foster?
I live a couple of blocks from Hopleaf and can recommend it to as a must go for any beer-lover. ET, when you go there try their mussels – exceptional.
Have you never been to Hopleaf on Clark St. just south of Foster?
I’ve been there many times. It’s great.
But Monk’s is good, too — and their frites are more interesting than Hopleaf’s, if I recall.
Crazy Frog: I haven’t had the mussels there yet, ’cause I haven’t been there with someone who can help eat ‘em (I burn out after a half dozen or so). Some people have told me the mussels are even better over at the Publican on Fulton St., but haven’t made it down that way yet.
Hey hippie commie ex-Californian by way of Arizona and Texcas, where are you? Picking up stones to sell as arrowheads on Craigslist?
No, I’m picking dead flowers.
Hey girl
Whatcha doin pickin flowers to make beer?
I’m in!
“…Let’s say Jane and James are trying to determine whether a particular coin is fair. They both think there’s an 80% chance the coin is fair. They also know that if the coin is unfair, it is the sort that comes up heads 75% of the time.
Jane flips the coin five times, performs a perfect Bayesian update, and concludes there’s a 65% chance the coin is unfair. James flips the coin five times, performs a perfect Bayesian update, and concludes there’s a 39% chance the coin is unfair. The averaging heuristic would suggest that the correct answer is between 65% and 39%. But a perfect Bayesian, hearing both Jane’s and James’s estimates - knowing their priors, and deducing what evidence they must have seen - would infer that the coin was 83% likely to be unfair….
(Math for original example:
James, to end up with a 39% posterior on the coin being heads-weighted, must have seen four heads and one tail:
P(four heads and one tail| heads-weighted) = (0.75^4 ∙ 0.25^1) = 0.079. P(four heads and one tail | fair) = 0.031. P(heads-weighted | five heads) = (0.2∙0.079)/(0.2∙0.079 + 0.8∙0.031) = 0.39, which is the posterior belief James reports.
Jane must similarly have seen five heads and zero tails.
Plugging the total nine heads and one tail into Bayes’ theorem:
P(heads-weighted | nine heads and a tail) = ( 0.2 ∙ (0.75^9 ∙ 0.25^1) ) / ( 0.2 ∙ (0.75^9 ∙ 0.25^1) + 0.8 ∙ (0.5^9 ∙ 0.5^1) ) = 0.83, giving us a posterior belief of 83% that the coin is heads-weighted.)”
Anna Salamon and Steve Rayhawk
Welcome to the world of likelihood theory. A new fun way to determine probabilities. Ok, Sun get out here and write a new dovetail program.
You are learning this now? This is like the basic alphabet of probability theory.
Bonus: What happens to Jane and James when they realize that the insiders traded on the information ahead of them? How do they update their Bayesian priors then?
Ah the difference in this formula is very small but meaningful ol buddy. Jane goes to Alcock’s, gets bombed and wakes up in Thunderbolt Trader’s rental apt and James goes to Kelly’s and stumbles off the wharf into the lake and drowns.
Bah! Express myself poorly and I get jumped on. lol
prior post was eaten by the blog monster.
I submit the candidate for clueless write of the year.
Pent-Up Demand Could Quickly Pull Economy Out of Its Hole
Justin Lahart
(He makes about the weakest attempt I’ve ever seen at comparing this recession to the early 80’s)
write = writer
test
Another failed test, I fear you will never get out of school - a perpetual student.
Must be tough getting all that pork over a hurdle.
Recovery package clears key Senate hurdle February 9, 2009 7:38 PM ET
All Thomson Reuters news WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate on Monday moved a step closer toward approving President Barack Obama’s plan to jolt the U.S. economy out of recession with government spending and tax breaks, setting up a vote to pass the $838 billion emergency package on Tuesday.
61-38, wonder if they can better it for tomorrow, or is that all there is?
This little political duel is actually kinda interesting - more so than last fall’s TARP rollover. I mean, passage is a foregone conclusion, but even so the starkly drawn lines of support are a departure from the ordinary. Wonder how this will play out over the long term?
I hate to break it to those of us in the economy who are, or who will soon be unemployed, but, the Government will run out of money, and this time they will not be able to afford to pay endless unemployed benefits. The huge ‘pie plate’ that has become the Federal trough is soon to find that there is not enough monetary pie filling to even cover the bottom of the “pan of promises” coming from our CONgress.
The political reaction will be to monetize the debt directly through the consumer (rather than through the insolvent banks), and then we will possible see a whipsaw of hyperinflation the likes of which this nation has never before witnessed. Then the end of our current financial system……….
Hyperinflation is much more likely during periods where government is forced to deficit-spend, like during a war. They cannot cut back on spending when the “extra” money is needed to fund the war. To do so means annhilation.
We’re not in a war.. well, the little war over there is not the problem.. The “problem” is an overexpanded economy, now contracting due to a collapsing RE bubble.
Govt currently has all the room in the world to cut back on spending without threatening the country’s viability.
Yeah, i know we’re watching them spend a couple $ Trillion on crap ideas that won’t help and stuff we don’t need.. it’s a lot money down the drain.. but it’s not enough to cause and/or sustain hyperinflation, imo.
Gimmie an “A”! Gimmie a “C”! Gimmie an “O”!
Gimmie an “R”! Gimmie an “N”! Gimmie 4 Billion Dollars! Whaddya Got? - Voter fraud and Democratic Party corruption funded by us taxpayers for a long time!
Acorn to be stimulated to the tune of $4,000,000,000 for a job well done:
By Kristen Lopez Eastlick, OpEd Contributor
- 2/8/09
KEY DATA:
* ACORN could receive up to $4 billion under the economic stimulus legislation approved by the House of Representatives.
* ACORN has received an estimated $53 million in government funds since its founding in 1970.
* ACORN is under investigation in at least 14 states in connection with allegations of voter registration fraud in the 2008 campaign.
TAKE HOME:
ACORN claims to represent low-income workers but does not pay its own employees the minimum wage and in 1995 sued California for an exemption from its minimum wage requirement.
A multi-million dollar liberal non-profit activist conglomerate reportedly under federal investigation may get a big piece of the economic recovery stimulus pie now under consideration by Congress.
It’s the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now – the infamous ACORN.
That’s right. ACORN, the activist group that has been implicated in voter fraud and registration deception in at least 14 states may get the financial bailout it needs to pull off another round of schemes in the next election season.
Last fall, nearly every time ACORN was in the news the group’s credibility was — rightfully and appropriately — questioned. In the final weeks leading to the election, twice as many voters held a negative view of the group than a positive view.
But now that ACORN is receding from public view, it’s apparently counting on the economic crisis and its friends in Congress to refill its coffers with up to $4 billion in aid.
“The euro fell over 1 percent against the yen and the dollar, weighed down by a report that Russia was to request negotiations with European and other foreign banks to postpone repayment of private sector debt.
The euro fell 1.2 percent to $1.2849 and 1.6 percent to 117.08 yen .
Traders said the report in Japan’s Nikkei business daily had caused markets players to sell the euro. The report could not be immediately confirmed….”
Reuters
I hate investing in Russia, lousy capitalists.
All major currency devaluations have triggered stock-market rallies throughout the world; one of the best ways to trigger a stock-market rally is to devalue your currency…
—
The US market is not ever, not in any boomers life, gonna rally with a strong dollar…Lets here it for the Strong Dollar Policy. Its very difficult for me to tell everyone; however, its true. Now roll yer wheelchair down to the infirmary… Im the big @#$%in sellout !!!
BOO, BOO the true sellout.
Most dontnwant to handle the truth, or the notion of sellout.
DONT CHALLENGE ME YOU FOOL !!!
But nothing like getting your funds froze in Russia.
Just call me Mr. V. Are you gonna get a mohawk?
Introducing the newest member of the A Team, (drum roll) Mr. V
“DONT CHALLENGE ME YOU FOOL !!!”
Are you alright Vozzie? You seem a little bent out of shape. Relax, take the pink and yellow pills; stay away from the Pale Ale. Don’t try fishing it is not relaxing if you can’t catch anything.
bah another post eaten.
“To help people ride out the financial crisis and celebrate the Chinese New Year, Beijing distributed $1.42 billion in “hong bao” — little red packets of “lucky money” — among the poor. “The unprecedented aid package … will benefit more than 74 million people amid the financial crisis,” the China Daily newspaper quoted a senior official as saying”
Reuters
So each person got 20 bucks. Heck of a stimulus Premiere Wen.
I like the Chilean stimulus better
“For those trying to drown their sorrows in drink, a bar in Chile’s capital is promoting a “Crisis Menu” of discount-priced cocktails. Drinks at the Catedral bar near Santiago’s financial center include The Subprime, In Recession, Pyramid (scheme), Bailout and The Madoff Nectar. “The crisis names grab your attention straight away … and the price is good too,” said bank executive Angelica Quezada, 38, sipping a “Down Jones” — a mix of peach and orange ice cream and vodka.”
Reuters
“DUE TO BUDGET CUTS, THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL IS BEING TURNED OFF.”
On Monday evening, new details emerged after lawmakers were briefed on the plan.
It intends to call for the creation of a joint Treasury and Federal Reserve program, at an initial cost of $250 billion to $500 billion, to encourage investors to acquire soured mortgage-related assets from banks.
It wants the Fed to use its balance sheet to provide the financing, and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation might provide guarantees to investors who participate in the program, which some people might call a “bad bank.”
A second component of the plan would broadly expand, to $500 billion to $1 trillion, an existing $200 billion program run by the Federal Reserve to try to unfreeze the market for commercial, student, auto and credit card loans. A third component would involve a review of the capital levels of all banks, including projections of future losses, to determine how much additional capital each bank should receive.
The capital injections would come out of the remaining $350 billion in the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.
A separate $50 billion initiative to enable millions of homeowners facing imminent foreclosure to renegotiate the terms of their mortgages is to be announced next week.
NYT: Geithner Said to Have Prevailed on the B@ilout
“…They are convinced we are going into some deep national morass worse than the Great Depression (and such deflationary times will somehow make their gold go to $3,000!?!?). Yet they are working to make sure their own personal worlds are covered. I get no letters from people who are simply giving up. What company will keep a CEO who does not work hard to figure out how to keep the company alive? If you lose your job, do you not try and get another one or figure out how to make ends meet? Do you not put in extra hours to try and make your personal life or business or job better? Even if it is terribly difficult, the very large majority of people don’t throw in the towel. Each of us, in our own way, gets up every morning to fight the good fight, even when the swamp is full of more alligators than we ever counted on. We just pick up a baseball bat, wade into the swamp, kill as many alligators as we can in one day, and then go home to get ready to fight the next day.
The lesson from Harry is the same as it was in 1998: It is the individual working to get his or her own house in order that will help us all collectively get our national house in order. This is not to diminish the Herculean tasks we have in front of us, collectively. We have dug ourselves into a very deep hole of credit and leverage. It is going to take lots of time. The way back is not entirely clear at this point. This is not an ordinary business-cycle recession. But each of us will do what we can to make our small corner of the world better. And in the fullness of time, we will collectively get back to trend growth and a rational market….”
Mr. John Mauldin
Feb 9
“…With every day that goes by bringing another spate of earnings disappointments, bankruptcies, and examples of mismanagement, it would seem intuitive to expect corporate behavior to reflect these grim times, with companies retreating, retrenching, and regressing. But, in recent weeks, we have started to pick up on examples of the exact opposite, as the well-capitalized platform companies have used this period of turbulence to position themselves for the next phase of growth. …”
GaveKal
Feb 9, 2009