A Full Player In The Downturn
A report from the Oregonian. “Oregon suffered its first bank failure in 17 years Friday afternoon when state regulators closed Pinnacle Bank, a small, one-office institution in Beaverton. Pinnacle is the third Northwest bank seized by regulators since September. The Bank of Clark County in Vancouver failed in January. In addition to Pinnacle, regulators on Friday closed banks based in Nebraska, Florida and Illinois, marking 13 failures this year of federally insured institutions. Cory Streisinger, director of the Oregon Department of Consumer and Business Services, declined to speculate whether Oregon will see additional bank failures.”
“‘We’re in an economic downturn,’ she said. ‘A number of Oregon banks have certainly felt the effect of the downturn in the housing market. Overall, Oregon community banks will come out of this downturn as a vibrant industry. But it’s not unusual to see a contraction.’”
The Yakima Herald Republic from Washington. “Yakima County home prices are continuing to fall. Median home resale prices in the fourth quarter of 2008 fell by almost 8 percent to $140,800 compared to the same period a year earlier, according to the Washington State University Center for Real Estate Research.”
“The resale price drop in Yakima closely tracked housing trends statewide. Among all counties in Washington, the media resale price dropped 9 percent. Kittitas County, which has higher housing values, was hit harder. The median resale price there declined 21 percent over the same period a year ago, to $215,000.”
“Rick Fairbrook, broker at John L. Scott Real Estate,said even with the struggles, now is a good time to buy a home because of federal tax credits, low interest rates and lower prices. It’s really a perfect storm for the buyer,’ he said.”
The Daily News from Washington. “Cowlitz County homes are selling for more than 10 less percent less than a year ago, prompting people to drop out of the market to wait for better times, according to area real estate agents and other sources. Linda Weaver, co-owner of Assist 2 Sell in Kelso, said she’s advising clients who don’t need to sell right away to pull their homes off the market for now. Buyers are ‘looking for the best deal they can get for the least amount of money,’ Weaver said.”
“Low-end homes are selling because sellers are dropping their prices to more “realistic” levels, she said. Also, buyers are having a hard time getting financing for more expensive homes as lenders tighten their standards, she said. ‘It’s harder to get loans. You’ve got to be on top of things,” Weaver said.”
The News Tribune from Washington. “Local real estate agents said the number of bank-owned properties and short sales on the market are keeping prices down and frustrating homeowners who want more for their properties. Some are choosing to wait and are taking their homes off the market. Bill Riley, owner of Gateway Real Estate in Puyallup, said his office is telling sellers that they need to be serious ‘because their competitor is either a bank or a short sale.’”
“On the other side, buyers are getting some great deals. Andrew Welch, managing broker for Windermere Port Orchard, said he just sold a 2,300-square-foot log home on 7 acres for $440,000. The sellers had bought it for $600,000 two years ago.”
“Pat Maddock, an agent with Coldwell Banker Bain, said he’s been busy the past month. He sold two homes on Super Bowl Sunday. But he’s keeping expectations realistic. ‘I resist counseling my clients that the market is getting hot … that the record-setting years are back. They are not, they are absolutely not. If we get back to a balanced market by this summer, that might be the best we can hope for,’ he said.”
The Canadian Press “The Canadian Real Estate Association said seasonally adjusted sales through the MLS were down 3.1 per cent from December. ‘In seasonally adjusted terms, sales … now stand at the lowest level since the mid-1990s and barely half the heated pace seen in early 2007,’ BMO Capital Markets economist Douglas Porter commented after the CREA release.”
“The ongoing sharp drop in home sales points to further declines in prices as well as a deeper pullback in new home building,’ he wrote. He noted that recent data included a six per cent annualized plunge in euro-zone fourth-quarter gross domestic product, an 84 per cent year-over-year drop in Japan’s machine tool orders, a 74,000 rise in British joblessness and a 43 per cent drop in Chinese imports.”
“‘There are also now daily indications that Canada is a full player in the downturn, he said.”
“Porter added sardonically that economic forecasting has become straightforward: ‘Whatever the indicator, and wherever the country, simply take the worst-case scenario your 21 models and/or your gut tells you, and then cut the figure by another couple orders of magnitude.’”
The Vancouver Sun “About 52 per cent of Canada’s largest markets reported a decline in house prices from January, 2008. Calgary was the worst hit, with prices down 11.4 per cent over the year, followed by an 8.8-per-cent drop in Vancouver, an 8.2-per-cent fall in Toronto.”
“Derek Holt, an economist at Scotia Capital said the supply of unsold homes on the market was still too high relative to demand, putting downwards pressure on prices. ‘The fact that Canadian consumer finances are at their most stressed point since the early 1990s recession adds to the downsides facing the consumer sector,’ Mr. Holt said.”
“When a developer shelves a 400-unit condominium project, he not only puts the trades out of work, he pulls the plug on 400 new kitchens and at least 600 new bathrooms. The ripple effect of slowing construction also spreads to suppliers of lumber, drywall, flooring, machinery, windows, cement, wiring, paint, landscaping services — even the catering truck that hauls sandwiches to the work sites.”
“About one in 10 jobs in British Columbia is related to the construction industry, according to Helmut Pastrick, chief economist with Vancouver-based Central 1 Credit Union. With B.C. building permits falling faster than the national average, that spells more layoffs in the year ahead — and perhaps beyond.”
“A survey last month by the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association shows 50 per cent of construction companies expect work levels to decline, while 38 per cent expect the amount of work to stay the same over the next year. ‘I like to say that I am optimistic about the future, but I am not,’ Paul Boileau, vice-chair of the B.C. Division of Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, said in an interview. ‘I know the real estate guys are all trying to stabilize things by saying there is going to be a little dip and then there’s going to be a comeback. I really don’t believe it. I think it is going to be intense and long.’”
The Globe & Mail from Canada. “The plunge in oil prices…has sent buyers flocking to the East Coast and kept them far from Vancouver Island, where they had raced to buy investment property and weekend getaways in recent years. ‘My phone’s ringing left and right - and has been the last eight months - with people leaving Alberta and coming back here,’ said Terry Campbell, a Halifax-based agent who is so busy selling property that he hasn’t had a day off since New Year’s.”
“‘Everything’s very positive here. If we didn’t own TVs [to see the bad news elsewhere], we’d be just fine,’ he said.”
“Contrast that with Victoria, where real estate agents are lamenting the drying up of the Calgary gusher - one said one-fifth of his sales were to Albertans in past years - and some homeowners simply can’t sell. Take Dunstan Chicanot, who has spent a year trying to sell his waterfront property at Victoria’s Fisherman’s Wharf.”
“‘I have seals playing six feet from where I’m reading my newspaper,’ he told a reporter. ‘It’s as sweet as it gets. You should forget your story, get out here, buy the place and get on with your life.’”
“The fact that Mr. Chicanot’s home is a small houseboat already narrows the number of potential buyers, but the state of the economy has made it far tougher, he said. ‘There was a category of people that would buy it as a second place,’ he said. ‘That market is dead.’”
From Calgary TV in Canada. “Seven thousand condo units are under construction in Calgary right now and as the economy slips, many buyers are trying to get out of their contracts. In British Columbia, one developer is suing buyers who have walked away from their deposits and some people are worried that could happen in Calgary too.”
“In some new condo buildings, buyers are trying to sell their units as soon as they take possession, even if it means taking a substantial loss on the property. Officials say there is currently more than six months of oversupply in the condo market right now and more than 200 empty units.”
The Alliston Herald from Canada. “Between September and November of last year, homeowners across the province and throughout our riding received their 2009-2012 property assessment notices based on the current value of their home as of January 1, 2008 and already they are badly in need of review.”
“After cynically freezing property assessments until conveniently after the 2007 election, Premier Dalton McGuinty’s Liberal government implemented a new assessment system that assessed homes based on Jan. 1, 2008 values - the height of a hot housing market - revising assessments from their previously assessed values of Jan. 1, 2005. Those now unrealistic values have been locked in and are now being phased in until a new assessment is conducted in January 2012.”
“Even Dalton McGuinty admitted that the assessments were ‘unrealistic’ given the significant declines in the housing market throughout the year, and yet, instead of taking action himself, he’s pinning it all on municipalities by telling councilors to ‘act reasonably and responsibly.’”
The Alaska Journal of Commerce. “Remember the days a few years ago when homes sold within 24 hours, buyers bid above the listing price and home construction was going strong? Those days are gone.”
“Through November 2008, the municipality of Anchorage has issued 220 building permits, down from 300 in 2007, according to the Anchorage Home Builders Association. That is down considerably from 2002, when the municipality issued 924 permits.”
“‘One of the challenges we are faced with right now is that banks are not loaning short-term construction money,’ said Vicki Portwood, Anchorage Home Builders’ executive officer. ‘What our builders have done is they have tightened their belts. They are not out building because they can’t get speculative monies, so they’ve had to take their existing company size and ratchet it down, waiting for the market to come back.’”
“Commercial construction is also slow, according to Jeff Thon, with Jack White Commercial Real Estate. Specifically, Anchorage’s retail industry is down due to overbuilding, he said. ‘Probably as soft as I’ve seen it in 30 years,’ Thon said. ‘You look at everything that’s done on the east side of town, couple new little strip centers in other areas, it is just plain overbuilding. What has been added to our marketplace the last 18 months has given us a huge surplus.’”
‘Porter added sardonically that economic forecasting has become straightforward: ‘Whatever the indicator, and wherever the country’
This is the classic denial we’ve seen in every market before the fall. ‘We’re not Florida, we’re not Las Vegas, we’re not California,’ then boom:
‘There are also now daily indications that Canada is a full player in the downturn’
As if economics somehow magically stops at an invisble national border.
And how can anyone deny there was a housing bubble in Alaska?
‘Remember the days a few years ago when homes sold within 24 hours, buyers bid above the listing price and home construction was going strong? Those days are gone.’
I was traveling through Alaska for work in both 2003 and 2005. I’ve always checked housing prices in cities where I work and it was obvious to me even in 2003 that Alaska was participating in the bubble. All you needed to do was check sales history for properties on the market.
I’m still wondering what numbers these economic forecasters were reading when they claimed it wasn’t all speculative. You simply can’t justify the increases using any numbers at all.
As if economics somehow magically stops at an invisble national border.
Give it to them, Ben! Show them ABSOLUTELY no mercy. Blood and guts everywhere.
Decoupling, we hardly knew ye.
It’s bad everywhere and getting worst. Anyone who doubts that is a little cuckoo in the head. The downturn is now rippling back viciously onto housing. Where’s the beef, I mean MEW?
“The ripple effect of slowing construction also spreads to suppliers of lumber, drywall, flooring, machinery, windows, cement, wiring, paint, landscaping services — even the catering truck that hauls sandwiches to the work sites.”
As an example of this denial, everyone said Oregon was no NV, AZ, CA, or FL.
Well, who would’ve guessed Oregon would move into 5th place in the country in foreclosure rate in January (according to RealtyTrac) behind the 4 worst, and most widely bubbly, states?
As negative as I’ve been, even I didn’t think we’d move into 5th position!
I heard that on OPB the other day. I’m not seeing much of a price drop in my area, but it’s starting. In my zip there are 186 properties for sale, 8 are bank owned and 16 are short sales. In the greater subdivision area there are 1310 properties for sale. 56 are bank owned and 124 are short sales. According to a realtard “The influence of this minority of sellers on the majority of homes for sale is staggering”. He goes on to say that he doesn’t know how long this opportunity is going to last so I better get out there and buy while the gettin’s good! There’s never been a better time to buy.
“The influence of this minority of sellers on the majority of homes for sale is staggering”.
I’m not sure why he considers it staggering. The more foreclosures and short sales, the more those sales affect comps.
There were plenty of us in Vancouver - often renting rather plush spanking new condos - who knew this plunge was coming. Shiller was talking about Vancouver as the most egregious bubble in N. America 2 years ago. And his eponymous index doesn’t even cover Canada.
“About one in 10 jobs in British Columbia is related to the construction industry, according to Helmut Pastrick, chief economist with Vancouver-based Central 1 Credit Union
What more needs to be said? You can see right there that both the BC housing market and general economy are unsustainable.
BTW Pastrick was one of the chief cheerleaders of the BC bubble, predicting continued increases in prices right up to the market turn in May 2008. Once prices were clearly falling he changed his tune with no explanation.
BC has experienced continuing deindustrialization since 2001 and all job growth since then has directly or indirectly come from construction. Where have we heard that before?
I highly doubt only 1 in 10 jobs in BC is related to the construction industry, you need to consider forestry, mining, tourism, finance, legal, international education, all of these sectors have been dependent on the housing bubble in BC and those abroad. I’d like to see the report that backs up his 1 in 10 claim.
And don’t forget the huge increase in housing prices in B.C. when all the Hong Kong millionaires were moving to Vancouver before China took over HK. There was a tremendous speculative bubble just from all the dollars trying to get out of Hong Kong. You could buy your way into Canada if you showed enough dollars.
That happened in the 90s….HK reverted to Chinese rule in 1997 after all.
I don’t think you can point to that having much to do with the bubble of the mid 00s.
A little OT, but why is “buying your way into Canada” a bad thing? I see nothing wrong with putting someone with the means to support himself and bring in money that will spur the economy at the top of the immigration list.
The number of people I know in Vancouver who are involved in real estate/construction is fairly know BUT the number of people I know whose income is dependent upon money which comes out of the industry is very, very high.
Hmm, where is my brain? Let me try again…
The number of people I know in Vancouver who are involved in real estate/construction is fairly low BUT the number of people I know whose income is dependent upon money which comes out of the industry is very, very high.
Sheesh…all of that FREE Gold and Oil just bubbling out of the ground in Alaska and Canada and no one wants to buy a house
Oh well..maybe next time
LOWER YOUR PRICES DUMMIES !!!
I want to understand if it is lawful to subsidize individuals, who are not able to pay their mortgages, with TARP (taxpayers) money. I’m a taxpayer too and would like TARP to subsidize my rent too, why those guys have a privilege over us. Is there a way to file a class action suit against this TARP to get justice or I’m too naive…?
I read a story many years ago .. it was about some famous historical figure, like Daniel Boone .. I’ve never been able to find it again.
Anyway, this guy became famous in his own right and then campaigns and gets elected to a local govt office, some time shortly after the American Revolution.
The story goes that 2 sisters’ home burnt down and the town wanted to use money from the town treasury to help them rebuild. Our hero pointed out that such was against the law.. public funds must only be spent towards the public good. The issue made it to court and he was overruled.
This event supposedly set a precedent whereby govt can bestow public funds upon individuals if it feels the need is justified.
Tank you joeyinCalif, but we did not have earthquake or fire,or any disaster to help individuals, why they did not help people during the Catryna hurricane this way? People bought their houses in open market, nobody forced them to do that. I chose to rent, they chose to buy. Why are they eligible for subsidy and I’m not I can’t understand. Yes it is humane to help people during the natural disaster, but to reward them being irresponsibly is the same to provide money to people ho lost their bets in Las Vegas Casinos. It is the same to reward $18 billion to those bank executives who ruined their banks.
Is there a LAW in our Democratic Constitution preventing the use of Taxpayers money to reward individuals irresponsibility?
Is it irresponsible to build a coastal city at the mouth of a treacherous, swampy delta famous for flooding.. in a hurricane zone.. 50 feet below sea level?
Is it irresponsible to not save for one’s retirement?
Is it irresponsible to have children you cannot afford to raise? Is this so different than buying a house you cannot afford?
Is public money spent on these and countless similar examples? Yes. Is there a law against it? Evidently not.
Does anyone care? Few.. probably because we think we are wealthy enough to easily afford being irresponsible.
“Does anyone care?” Ahhh leads to a good ole Chicago song:
As I was walking down the street one day
A man came up to me and asked me what the time was that was on my watch, yeah
And I said
Does anybody really know what time it is
Does anybody really care
If so I cant imagine why
Weve all got time enough to cry
And I was walking down the street one day
A pretty lady looked at me and said her diamond watch had stopped cold dead
And I said
Does anybody really know what time it is
Does anybody really care
If so I cant imagine why
Weve all got time enough to cry
And I was walking down the street one day
Being pushed and shoved by people trying to beat the clock, oh, no I just dont know
I dont know
And I said, yes I said
People runnin everywhere
Dont know where to go
Dont know where I am
Cant see past the next step
Dont have time to think past the last mile
Have no time to look around
Just run around, run around and think why
Does anybody really know what time it is
Does anybody really care
If so I cant imagine why
Weve all got time enough to die
Thank you, I feel myself “Back in USSR…”
It’s probably this story about Davy Crockett:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html
Thanks, mamooth.. that’s the one. As usual, I see my memory is more than a little bit off..
From The Life of Colonel David Crockett,
by Edward S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884)
Wikipedia (”Davy Crockett”) has something to say about this incident’s authenticity.
“In an 1884 book written by dime novelist and non-fiction author Edward S. Ellis, Crockett is recorded as giving a speech (the “Not Yours to Give” speech) critical of his Congressional colleagues who were willing to spend taxpayer dollars to help a widow of a US Navy man who had lived beyond his naval service, but would not contribute their own salary for a week to the cause.
Ellis describes how the once popular proposal died in the Congress largely as a result of the speech. The authenticity of this speech is questioned; however, since the Register of Debates and the Congressional Globe do not contain transcripts of speeches made on the house floor, there is no way to know whether the speech is authentic. Crockett is on record opposing a similar bill and offering personal support to the family of a General Brown in April 1828.”
———-
Interesting page.. I kinda like this Crockett guy.. “I bark at no man’s bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is.”[citation needed]
joeyinCalif, you’re probably remembering this story about Davy Crockett:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html
Makes more sense for the govt to pay your rent then it does for them to pay someone who’s grossly underwater MTG. At least by paying your rent you can save more money, and have a big downpayment to buy in a few years. Helping the homeowner who is 200K under a 400K house (VERY common in FL) is just throwing good money after bad, eventually that person is going to wake up and realize that they can stop the pain by sending some jingle mail; they will never be made whole financially until they walk.
So to “bailout” the homeowner in our story, the government needs to spend 200K for a principal reduction to give that person a good reason to stay in the house. Or, they can pay your rent for a year (rent of 2K a year) giving you an extra 24K to put down on that 200K home. Because you’re going to leverage that 24K 5 to 1, the government’s 24K turns into more like 125K of home buying power.
The 200K that the government needs to spend to bailout homeowner 1 is actually 200K (no leverage effect) and it’s not going to work anyway, the homeowner will likely walk at some point in the future. But give money to the renters, and then, with leverage, you see a much bigger return on your investment!
Hence, I decree that from today forward, the government shall pay all our rental payments. It makes more sense than paying down MTG loans that are 2X the value of the homes, that’s for sure!!
It just keeps underwater serfs threading the debt-mill a little longer until exhaustion overwhelms hope.
Yeah, this is the real plan actually.
“I want to understand if it is lawful to subsidize individuals,”
all those in favor?
Aye!
Motion passed.
et voila! It is now lawful.
Dear diemos, please answer to me why not for renters the same
“all those in favor?
Aye!
Motion passed.
et voila! It is now lawful.”
Why only help them who are irresponsible…? Is our Congress wants to create privileged cast of “irresponsible citizens” ?
I know many senior citizens who who are in SSI and were using credits from banks and buying flat screen TVs , everything that is possible, knowingly that they not going to pay back and the people who will pay back for their bills are me and you…
Is this American Justice?
Is this we call ourselves Greatest Country in the world?
Is this we call ourselves Greatest Country in the world?Sorry, I get emotional and make mistakes, ”
Is this we call ourselves Greatest Country in the world?” should be”
Is this the reason we call our country the Greatest Country in the world?
Isn’t that what section 8 does?
But Canada is different.. We have unicorns and pixie dust that will magically prevent any economic downturn.
Yes, but do you have a Candy-Crappin’ Unicorn™ who talks to you about the Audacity of Hope, eh?
“Yes, but do you have a Candy-Crappin’ Unicorn™ who talks to you about the Audacity of Hope, eh?”
We have the Olympics, suckah. We don’t need the audacity of hope, we have the lords of the rings.
“We still have to find room in the Greater Vancouver region for another million people over the next 10 years or so, and the Olympics will focus three billion pairs of eyes on this region. We believe that will help to get people interested in not only moving here but investing here and opening up businesses.”
This is so true really. I have moved twice in the last few years. To Torino and to Salt Lake City. When 2010 is over, I will probably move to Sochi. And invest all my money there.
I especially enjoy moving to Olympic host cities when their economies are collapsing and unemployment is soaring. It makes it much more exciting and a real adventure.
do you really have a strategy of buying property where ever the next olympics are going to be held and does it always work? HOW MAny times….
I was kidding, of course!
No, I don’t have a strategy of buying property in Olympics host cities. I live in one, and I don’t even own property here
Ahhhh. Chatting with SATAN on a Sunday.
I think Canada and Alaska are running out of land.
“In British Columbia, one developer is suing buyers who have walked away from their deposits and some people are worried that could happen in Calgary too.”
I don’t know what was in their contracts, but good luck getting the folks that walked away from their deposits back to the table to complete the deal on the crapdos.
I personally convinced a very good family friend to walk away from a 350k Condo in Vancouver, BC. after he had placed a deposit. This was over 2 years ago. He still thanks me, often.
Good for you!
I still haven’t gotten the “profuse” thanks because I steered the b@stards away from the problem well in advance. I think most people need their c*ck in a vice before they realize what good advice looks like.
One’s my sister. The b*tch hasn’t yet figured out that i’ve positioned her to be richer than most of her poser colleagues.
She’s a good gal though. Oh well! these manias die hard.
“‘I have seals playing six feet from where I’m reading my newspaper,’ he told a reporter. ‘It’s as sweet as it gets. You should forget your story, get out here, buy the place and get on with your life.’”
Having a food supply so handy might just be a nice benefit in a couple of years.
And you can make yourself a fur coat.
And lots of soap and candles!
One must try to be squeaky clean and well lit whilst running around clad in little more than a fur coat.
Just ask Oly.
Halifax-based agent: “‘Everything’s very positive here. If we didn’t own TVs [to see the bad news elsewhere], we’d be just fine,’ he said.”
[chuckle]. I hear the same thing from my relatives back home in the Canadian maritimes. “It’s different here”. Beautiful place, but the economy is based on natural resources and tourism. That can’t end well.
Closing your eyes while the plane is crashing doesn’t prevent the plane crash.
Are those big screen HD TVs?
The Maritimes are pretty stable economically in that the region is usually fairly depressed - hence the mass exodus of natives to the West for work during good times. So while they may have their downturn, the percentage drop in activity will be considerably less than the rest of the country.
Ohhhh Canada. Newest saying is “when the market recovers, after the Olympics.” Yes, for sure, after our government has suckered us into paying $6 billion of our tax dollars to pay for this 2 week event.
Fools and their money…