It’s A Real Circus Out There In Florida
The Charlotte News reports from Florida. “Even with foreclosures, short sales and the overall recession, local real estate markets appear to be doing better than might be expected. Homes that offer a real bang for the buck can be found — for those who have the cash or the credit rating to get a mortgage. ‘So many things are skewing values,’ said Rex Govorchin, president of the Englewood Area Board of Realtors. ‘It’s a real circus out there.’”
“Claudia Ridge a Realtor and someone with 15 years of experience in Englewood, said …she’s seeing a significant drop in the sale of waterfront residential homes, where people now pay $500,000 to $600,000 for older houses. Five years ago, she said, vacant waterfront lots were selling for those prices.”
“The buyers she isn’t seeing in great numbers are those people who are still working. ‘People’s jobs are unstable,’ Ridge said. ‘I don’t see a lot of people upgrading their homes. These people are staying put.’”
“Think small and see a big bang for your buck in Port Charlotte, said Vickie McPhee with Century 21 Almar & Associates. ‘I am now seeing prices at a level as when I first started,’ said McPhee said, who began selling real estate in Port Charlotte in 1998. ‘Right now, the big bang for the buck is in the price levels under $100,000 and $150,000.’”
“Older sections of Port Charlotte, such as the smaller homes surrounding the Cultural Center, McPhee said, are selling for $20,000 and $30,000. Real buys, she said, can be found for $40,000 or $50,000.”
From CBS 12. “Over 40 lenders and banks unloaded their homes at a masssive auction Monday night. US Home Auctions is putting 1800 Florida foreclosures on the auction block this week, with auctions in Miami, West Palm Beach, Fort Myers and Tampa. The homes sold for pennies on the dollar. Buyers bid up 3-bedroom homes in West Palm Beach. Most sell for $50,000. Some Port St. Lucie homes sold for around $40,000. Even a downtown West Palm Beach highrise waterfront condo sold for just under $100,000.”
“‘45-50 looking for 45 to take the lead who wants in?’ speakers blared in a packed auction house at the South Florida Fairgrounds.”
The Palm Beach Post. “When an eternal optimist like Frank McKinney says he’s scared, you know times are tough. The flamboyant developer has delayed construction of two oceanfront manses in Manalapan until the global economy recovers. McKinney had planned to build a $125 million castle and a $30 million estate on vacant land he owns just south of the Ritz-Carlton.”
“But now that the luxury market no longer is bulletproof, McKinney acknowledged that pushing forward would be ‘foolish.’ ‘It’s a pretty scary time - I know I’m scared,’ McKinney said last week. ‘This is the first time I have seen the wealthy affected by one thing and one thing only, and that’s sentiment.’”
“As McKinney’s caution suggests, the high end of the economy no longer lives in its own little fantasy world. A year ago, private jets were still selling, mega-yachts were moving, and home prices in the town of Palm Beach were soaring (even as prices in the county of Palm Beach were tanking).”
“Now, though, mansion sellers like Dru Schmitt have slashed prices. Schmitt sold his 23,000-square-foot palace in Boca Raton in January for $12.9 million, after originally listing it for $24.9 million. The deal was recorded at $10.9 million, but the buyer paid an extra $2 million for furniture, said the buyer’s agent, Gary Pohrer.”
“The global meltdown has brought more setbacks for Rodger Krouse and Marc Leder, two titans of the private equity industry who run Sun Capital Partners of Boca Raton. Both invested with Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, the massive Ponzi scheme, and appear on the list of victims released this month by a federal bankruptcy court.”
“Bernard Madoff made a killing at 2 North Breakers Row. According to court records, he recruited at least eight investors for his alleged $50 billion Ponzi scheme at that 48-unit complex. A Palm Beach Post analysis of the court records shows that at a few Palm Beach condominiums and neighborhoods, losses were particularly heavy.”
“Many of the unfortunate tenants at the luxurious pink oceanside complex, where units go for $4 million to $6 million, are keeping mum about their losses. None contacted for this article would talk and it seems they are not even telling their neighbors. Roberta Robinson, 81, who has lived there almost 20 years, said she wasn’t aware how many of her neighbors had invested with Madoff, but said there were clues.”
“‘It hasn’t been quite as lively around here,’ she said. ‘In fact, in the first few days after the news broke, it was sad. But people seem to be going on with their lives. The people here aren’t the ones who lost everything, like some other poor people.’”
The Cape Coral Daily Breeze. “In addition to a high rate of foreclosures and a high unemployment rate, Cape Coral now has another characteristic of a failing economy - a failed bank. Riverside Bank of the Gulf Coast was shuttered Friday by the Florida Office of Financial Regulation.”
“Riverside chairman Elmer Tabor knew the end was near as early as December. Tabor…said the bank’s failure is the result of the fallout from the housing crisis and not due to mismanagement. Construction loans that typically would be picked up by secondary market lenders like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Wells Fargo and others were left on Riverside’s books.”
“‘In ‘05 a brand new house was selling at $250,000. By the time the house got completed a year later that house was at $190,000. The secondary market wouldn’t take that loan because it was upside-down,’ Tabor said.”
“‘Ours was not frivolous lending,’ he added. Tabor also pointed out that the bank’s customers would not lose any assets in the transition. ‘The only ones that lost out on this are the stockholders,’ he said.”
The Herald Tribune. “Elaine Friedman moved out of her home in August after her mortgage lender filed for foreclosure. As she did so, she had her utilities turned off. Florida Power & Light stopped sending her a bill. Manatee County Public Works did not. The county continues to charge her $24.47 in ‘readiness-to-serve’ fees for water and sewer.”
“‘It’s awfully frustrating,’ said Friedman, who relies on Social Security and says she cannot afford to pay for services she no longer uses. ‘It’s a real handicap every month.’”
“Like Manatee, however, other public utility providers throughout the region are hearing more complaints about readiness-to-serve billing. ‘It’s magnified because of the foreclosure market,’ Palmetto City Clerk Jim Freeman said. ‘We’ve had questions, pursuant to our ordinance. They understand it after we explain it to them, but they may still not like it.’”
The St Petersburg Times. “Members of Tampa Bay’s business community don’t need Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner or anyone else to tell them the credit noose has tightened. ‘The banks are hoarding money; the banks aren’t lending anything,’ said Jeremy Dixon, general manager of (a) Brandon-based temporary staffing agency. The credit restrictions, Dixon believes, are fueling a vicious cycle.”
“Already, economists have warned that Florida’s unemployment rate, now at 8.1 percent, may reach double digits this year. The bay area’s unemployment rate is 8.3 percent, the worst major metro area in the state. Just a few years ago, Florida led the country in job growth and was adding 1,000 people a day as a mecca for both retirees and job seekers.”
“Consider this measure of how the bay area’s reputation as a job magnet has reversed. In the Times’ 2006 survey, 17 percent of leaders pointed to growth management as the area’s single most pressing problem. No one mentioned it this year.”
“Until the employment picture brightens, it will be tough for real estate prices and the economy as a whole to start climbing again. ‘The key to any economic recovery is jobs,’ said Ray Sandelli, senior managing director of CB Commercial Real Estate in Tampa. ‘You could have the best interest rates and the best terms available so someone could buy a house, but if they don’t have a job or are fearful of losing their job, they’re not going to buy.”’
From Florida Today. “Brevard County lost 5,700 jobs, or nearly 3 percent of its work force, in 2008, and economists expect more companies to trim their staffs in 2009 as revenues keep shrinking. ‘The layoff parade is going to continue,’ said Sean Snaith, director of the University of Central Florida’s Institute for Economic Competitiveness.”
“The federal stimulus package working through Congress might help a few companies avoid layoffs, but that help will be limited, Snaith said. Florida will see double-digit statewide unemployment rates before the year is over. ‘We’re just really starting to see the beginnings of this process,’ he said.”
“The number of foreclosure filings in Sarasota, Manatee and Charlotte counties dropped sharply in January compared with December, with Florida as a whole seeing a 20 percent decline. Most experts attributed the decline to the state’s moratorium on foreclosures rather than to an improving housing market.”
“The moratorium was clearly the driving force, ‘because the fundamentals have not improved,’ said Dennis Black, a Port Charlotte-based real estate consultant.”
“Black argues that moratoriums simply kick the can down the road: ‘Not filing the foreclosure papers on a particular day or month doesn’t change the fact that the borrower is still not making the payments. The minute the person that is owed the money is permitted to foreclose, he will.’”
The Reporter. “Shifting into survival mode, the once-thriving but now economically struggling Four Corners real estate industry is looking for ways stay afloat as the state and nation enters its third year of a prolonged housing slump.”
“Although Central Florida’s real estate market has shown some signs of improvement since September, with sales rising in Osceola and Orange counties in particular, that’s mostly seen as a reaction to plummeting prices, particularly for foreclosed homes that the banks are eager to get off the books. And problems in the housing market persist.”
“A few years ago, real estate agents in Four Corners had no such troubles. Construction was booming in the area with plenty of newly built homes available, and the price tags kept soaring upward as pre-sales went briskly. Realtors often were signing contracts on the hood of their car moments after showing a new home.”
“Sean DePasquale, a senior loan officer with Florida Mortgage Partners Inc., said the full impact of many adjustable rate loans written in Florida at the height of the market in 2004 and 2005 hasn’t even hit home yet for a lot of local banks. ‘A lot of what the banks are dealing with is they are still bracing for the storm,’ he said. ‘It hasn’t happened yet.’”
The Northwest Florida Daily News. “David Nelson wants to bring more condominiums to Destin, but this developer intends to do so without changing the skyline or breaking ground on beachfront land. In fact, the condos will come and go in the amount of time it takes to drop anchor and walk off the deck to reel in a good catch, take in a round of golf and get a haircut before moving on to the next stop along the route where every bend in the river leads to home.”
“Home in this case is a ‘floating condominium’ in a new ‘floating community’ called River Cities. The concept came to Nelson through a combination of 29 years as a contractor in the residential, commercial and marine construction industries, 30 years of boating experience and 19 years of living aboard a house boat on the Mississippi River in St. Paul, Minn.”
“Nelson plans to have 90 percent of up to 200 units sold before construction begins. To reach his goal, Nelson is marketing the new lifestyle by visiting targeted port cities and making presentations on what life aboard a floating condominium community is all about. So who might a mobile community appeal to?”
“‘My baby boom generation is looking for things to do,’ he said.”
“So how much does this lifestyle cost? Like condominiums on land, The Marquette will have a homeowners’ association that collects a monthly fee that will pay for fuel and salaries that keep the floating community running. Nelson said that owners of smaller units can expect to pay $1,200 a month and those who own a ‘comfortable two bedroom’ will pay $2,000 a month to the association. The condominiums are priced anywhere from $55,000 to $1.8 million.”
“Shane Moody, president of the Destin Area Chamber of Commerce, said that it is an ‘interesting concept,’ but that the timing is probably a little off because of the down real estate and condo market.”
“…McKinney had planned to build a $125 million castle and a $30 million estate on vacant land he owns just south of the Ritz-Carlton.”
He better order a couple of solid “gold” St. Joseph statutes right away!
Bugs: “eh, a castle? I thought that was an “old school” European thing”
I love the smell of foreclosures in the morning………..
it smells like ……………….affordability.
“…two oceanfront manses…”
And when I was a wee lad back in Scotland, the manse was where the minister lived.
A substantial 2-storey stone house, to be sure, but nothing remotely like what’s being described here.
The reporter probably doesn’t know that the words are different. Because mansion looks kinda like manse, so they must mean the same thing!
“Floating Condominium”
Just what everyone needs……a cruise ship that you partially own. This has financial disaster written all over it, even if the economy was good.
There are several ways you can be “underwater” on this deal.
The rendering in that photo looks a lot like a container ship. Lots of freighters are idle and cargo containers empty. Just hire an advisor away from FEMA and presto, Los Condos Cheapos del Gulfo.
Wonder how this fella plans to move his behemoth during hurricane season.
“The finest in container-on-a-barge living…..”
“My baby boom generation is looking for things to do”
Must.refrain.from.getting.banned.
MUST.CANT>>CANT.MUST
MUST>><<CANT!
AHHH.MUST-NOT-GET—BA N ED.
–
city-data banned me. Was it you or Palmy that also got into hot water threatening to meet and have it out with a broker in St Pete?
That was funny.
LOL, Muir, do you have a link to that by any chance? I try to avoid the local blogs, although I did leave a comment at the Orlando Sentinel recently regarding another matter.
I have anger management issues, so I try to keep it low key and remember my manners when I can. With so many people on a short fuse these days and the bogus “hate speech” laws, I figure it is good policy.
Realtwhores bring out the best in you, ‘eh Palmy?
I try to be polite, but I think my contempt is written all over my face when I talk to them…
It was Muggy, he has same name in city-data
Check out his posts they are a riot.
There’s a search thing on right.
“Was it you or Palmy that also got into hot water threatening to meet and have it out with a broker in St Pete?
That was funny.”
That was me. I challenged a RE agent to a backyard boxing match. I’ve never even boxed. I wanted to do it at Blue Heaven in Key West, Hemingway style.
The offer still stands.
I can’t find the post, I think they deleted it.
Muggy - late to post - I’m a Hemingway fan. A friend of mine is a direct descendant of the journalist who challenged wise-Ernest to a duel in Cuba, relative to a diss by the latter’s wife in a bar. With .45 automatics, no less - a modern-day man’s duel, to be sure. Turns out, Hemingway was mending from his double-plane-crash in Africa and in no physical condition to take up the challenge, else I suspect he might have. He never lacked courage nor a gambler’s heart. The man had just enough common sense to overcome fatal impulses - how tragic (for us, if not him) that he chose to end his life because he knew that he had passed the peak of his creativity.
“Muggy Said: Doesn’t Florida suck now that your house isn’t paying you to be here?”
I love it!
To paraphrase a line from Christmas Vacation - “so Eddie, when did you get the tenement on floats”?
it needs some decoration.. some finishing touches that will advertise what it really is.
A long, thick scaley tail .. four short legs with webbed feet… a wide head and flat snout.. big teeth.. hungry eyes..
I’d like to buy a vowel… “A” !!
…yes, there are two A’s.
[Spin]
Now I’ll guess “L” !
…yes, there are two L’s.
…
Actually, this isn’t the first time this clown has come up! He was mentioned in a MN thread I believe in ‘05/’06? The “timing” was good at then as we were running out of land!
Now that there appears to be plenty of it..? Yeah, if you think there’s a multitude of ways to get shafted by your Association on dry land wait to you see what the Skipper has in store for you!
Is it just me, or does it look a lot like the Mobro 4000 garbage barge, which, in 1987, hauled the same load of trash along the east coast of North America from New York to Belize and back before a way was found to dispose of the garbage?
Doug - it’s not just you. I remember that one. Unfortunately, as with stuff at Blockbuster, that seems like “recent” to me.
Call it the “Titanic II”
Gimmickry to attract buyers is so 2008…
Call it the “Titanic II
Abracadabra… Nobody Gets Out of Here Alive… But As Long As We Are Here, We Might As Well Enjoy It…
I can see a nice tax dodge coming out of this.
I can see the gulls retaking Destin.
Am I the only one who saw the movie Waterworld?
Also what happens when a hurricane comes into town? And what would happen to the waste the boat produces? Just throw it into the water or dump it? Jeez.
You already can own a condo on a cruise ship.
Just one of many:
http://residentialvessels.com/seven.htm
“Nelson said that owners of smaller units can expect to pay $1,200 a month and those who own a ‘comfortable two bedroom’ will pay $2,000 a month to the association.The condominiums are priced anywhere from $55,000 to $1.8 million.”
“Shane Moody, president of the Destin Area Chamber of Commerce, said that it is an ‘interesting concept,’ but that the timing is probably a little off because of the down real estate and condo market.”
Timing is probably a “little off” LOL! No kidding! Floating condos, good lord this developer is in complete denial. I’m sure he like others think the next stimulator pork passage will bring on an influx of savvy, edgy buyers. Idiot!
$55,000 for a floating condo, then I gotta pay $1,200/month to the association? What exactly would a floating association do for $1,200/month? Chase jellyfish away? Fine destructive grouper?There are no lawns or roads to take care of.
They frighten away alligators that might become romantically involved with local sanitation trucks. (Yes, this is actually happening in FL. Check out today’s Fark for details.)
wow … found it, and not sure I should thank you … that was one of the most awful local tv pieces I’ve seen in some time … the gator growl was worth it, though.
Unintended consequence: more jellyfish jerky.
“Real buys, she said, can be found for $40,000 to $50,000″
I wouldn’t know the first thing about Port Charlotte but this does pose an interesting question. If the SunBelt/Retirement areas were really in a position to cash in on the Boomer Hoardes why was it so necessary to to move everything “upscale”?
The builders should have been the 1st to say that prices for raw land was simply too high. Why weren’t they sounding the alarm from the start? If this truly were about “serving the needs of the market” ( modest ret. home ) how did we wind up w/ 3,000 s/f homes on 4,000 s/f lots?
They lost sight of what Florida became known for during the real estate boom. People came to Florida because it was cheap and warm. Take either out of the equation and you end up with an area undesirable to most retirees or snow birds.
Eventually we’ll return to our role as a retiree’s paradise. It will be a long and painful journey though.
Bad Andy,
I don’t wish anything ‘long and painful’ on anyone. Nor am I peein’ on FL’s parade alone? Even in it’s aftermath, I’m still trying to figure out how things got so off kilter?
Was this perhaps more a matter of younger specuvestors trying to cash in on the Boomer Hoardes in advance… “snapping up” all the prime areas hoping to sell at a hefty profit? How would it have made sense for people still working and still in their 40’s or 50’s ( years… away from normal ret. age ) to be buying huge homes that would be vacant 50 weeks out of the year?
Obviously there’s still a lot about FL’s Bubble Dynamics I have yet to learn?
People were coming in on tour buses to speculate on property. People were buying this sight unseen. It’s like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Because many of the specuvestors were from the Northeast, builders responded with the zero lot line McMansions and seemed to forget what Florida was all about.
I’ve driven over the entire state and it’s the same around every major metropolitan area. Stuff was built miles from anything on speculation. There are so many 1/2 build neighborhoods with no lights on. This is especially prevalent in Central Florida when people were paying $200 per square foot for an area of the state that never commanded much more than $50 per square foot.
The bigger problem is that those homes they built for 200/sq/ft in central FL are 3000-5000 sq/ft McMansions. Even at 50/sq/ft, there’s not much demand for them. It’s kind of like high-rises in downtown WPB, almost at any price, there’s simply little/no demand for the product. Retirees don’t want to move into a 5000/sq/ft home in the middle of no-where FL. They also don’t want to move into a condo that borders Iraq (well, it’s about as dangerous) in downtown WPB.
Much of the inventory built during the boom truly has no intrinsic demand. It’s not that the price is too high (it still is, but that’s not the fundamental problem), it’s that there are simply no end users of the product. Kind of like American autos.
Bad Andy,
It’s tough for me to get my mind wrapped around this thing? My grandparents ( orig. Chicago ) retired in St. Pete in the early 70’s and had a nice little single-wide.
The idea being, by paying off their little place they had more liquidity to generate int. income. With monthly ( and stiff ) payments, HOA’s and maint. on a much bigger place, how was ANY of this expected to pencil out?
Didn’t -anyone- question the logic of this at -any- point?
No one questioned it. People were making their living just flipping houses to the next biggest fool who had no interest in ever living there. Many of us as residents questioned it, but even school teachers ended up with multiple $250,000 homes that they eventually got stuck with and became foreclosure statistics.
Bad Andy,
I can see that happening. Many locals probably scratched their heads at it but quickly dismissed it as “They wouldn’t be doing ALL that building if they hadn’t done their homework, would they?”
When you say school teachers, that really should have been a sign right there that it was all about to end. Although I’m still several years off from even being able to consider a full ret. we’ve never completely ruled out FL.
Mike Fink,
Hence my remark that the decline on many of these properties will be 100%. So many areas will have vacant houses that slowly rot. Vegas, Inland Empire Ca, Inland Florida, Atlanta exburbs exc.
Saw plenty of this already in Detroit, Camden (NJ, Newark NJ, Flint MI, exc. Heck. I even lived in some of these places.
Deflation in some of those areas for various reasons.
Suzanne to right of them,
Heggies to left of them,
Politicians behind them
Volley’d and thunder’d;
Storm’d at with shot and shell,
While house and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro’ the doors of Realty
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
Roll over Lord Tennyson but Someone had blunder’d
Mikey,
For a moment I thought you were going with the song “Stuck in the Middle WIth You”
I don’t know about your town but I know in my town the locals were drinking the Kool-Aid big time. “Gainesville has been discovered.” “GNV is the country’s most liveable city.” “GNV is a top ten city.” And various stuff about how the expanding hospitals will make us all rich because retirees want to live there, or how the winning Gators will make us all rich because “loaded alumni” want to live here, or how the Gators winning brings in lots of cash (probably not all that true), or that it will keep expanding forever…
And of course, the perennial concept that the banks wouldn’t be lending if they didn’t think they could make money, so somehow, they must know something we don’t. As one can see from that interview with Mr. Tabor, above, what the banks knew is that there were GF’s called FNM, FMC, LEH, and MER, who were all too willing to take their cruddy loans off their hands (for a tidy fee, to boot!).
People generally could not, and still are not able to, think in the long-term, or accept the prospect that the future may be very different than today. For example, other than myself, there are very few people in Florida willing to question the assumption that Boomer retirements will power our state’s economy over the next two decades. I could not disagree more. In fact, I believe “retirement” — which we forget is a relatively recent social development to begin with — is over. Even if I’m wrong, what happens to all the housing when the Baby Boom generation dies?
Charmer, I agree with you on the end of retirement as we know it. Why? Three reasons:
1. Many people can’t afford it anymore.
2. It’s boring.
3. Ever heard of the expression “put out to pasture”? It’s true. Who wants that?
Snake,
That’s another crazy idea. The boomers, who are all rich from selling their homes up in NJ/NY are going to come bail out FL. The number crunchers seem to assume that every 65+ YO retiree will move to FL (stupid by itself) but then totally neglect the impact of every 65+ retiree in NJ/NY putting their homes on the market. The market up north would collapse, and then the boomers will sell their homes for MUCH less, and hence, have much less to pay down here for their new homes.
Also, the mix of homes built is totally NOT the right mix for retirees. Huge McMansions and condos downtown aren’t what the boomers (those who do come) will want. They will want small, affordable homes in nice areas. I think about 10 of them were built over the last 5 years. Compared to the 10,000’s of McMansions/condos that have no buyers.
There will be many areas in FL where the values just drop to 0. No demand, too much supply. Sounds like no value to me.
“They will want small, affordable homes in nice areas. I think about 10 of them were built over the last 5 years”
LOL! Yep, thought so. Something I’ve struggled with more and more as things have gotten completely chaotic. The poor judgement on the part of developers becomes so much more obvious -after- the collapse.
JFTR I think a “small, affordable home in a nice area” is what about 90-95% of us ‘would’ be looking for! The Condo/McMansion Craze had to have been solely for the developer’s benefit and no one else’s!
And while we’re on this stupidity, let’s not forget that old people sooner or later die, leaving their home back on the market for a new occupant.
The real estate agents in Ocala have probably gotten rich flipping distress out-of-town heir sales to insiders, then selling them to unwitting newcomers at a hefty market…
It’s hordes. Hoards is what aladinsane does with his gold.
One thing that seldom gets reported is the fact that some retirees can’t/won’t continue to stay in FL. My mother’s mother, for example. She moved to FL from Buffalo and was staying with her sister until she found a place of her own.
Trouble was, none of those other places were as good for Grandma as staying with Aunt Louise was.
Eventually, Aunt Louise got tired of providing her sister with a place to crash, and Louise kicked her out.
Up to PA came Grandma, and let me tell you, my mother wasn’t about to have her move in with us. (Back story: My mother and Grandma were about as compatible as oxygen and phosphorus.)
So, Mom got Grandma into an apartment near our place, and, oh, man. You should have seen Mom’s issues playing out before my father and me. It was like my mother turned back into a 13-year-old. I’ve since heard that Grandma and Aunt Louise had the same type of relationship.
So, folks, if you think that you no longer have to deal with problematic relatives because they’ve retired to far-off FL, think again. I offer my family’s experience as a cautionary tale.
LOL……there is nothing as bad as having to hang around cranky old people.
“LOL……there is nothing as bad as having to hang around cranky old people.”
This is another reason why I have to leave. One of these days I’m going to knock one of those old guys out, and then you’ll be reading about a nice young family man who was bludgeoned to death with canes, oxygen tanks, and run over by multiple electric scooters.
They are so mean to everybody, especially wait staff. It’s awful.
Just don’t go out to eat until 7:00, after they’ve gone to bed.
Seriously though, do what I do. Find places they don’t go, and go there. They seem to like chain restaurants, and places with really bland food, and places that fry the crap out of everything. So go to mom and pop places with spicy food. If a restaurant has something on their menu that says “we do not allow sharing of one menu item among more than 3 people”, leave immediately.
If you want to read a good book on senior communities, check out “Leisureville” by Andrew Blechman. He writes extensively and sometimes hilariously on The Villages, which at 70,000 inhabitants is probably the largest Florida “city” I’ve never visited. Probably the funniest passage is where he smokes pot at the invitation of a seventy-something retired plumber, and the guy says that most days he “gets stoned and plays Nintendo” and “eats a lot of pepperoni” because he’s not much of a cook.
I agree on the point about the wait staff. Just because you’re elderly doesn’t give you a free pass to be a jerk.
oh gawd, the Villages…
they used to have bison grazing in fields next door, until some nitwit decided to let their grandchild “pet the buffalo”
“People came to Florida because it was cheap and warm. Take either out of the equation and you end up with an area undesirable to most retirees or snow birds.”
Andy - well said.
Before this is ALL over, the taxing enties of Florida may be wishing and begging for the return of stable, retired, Tax paying, senior snowbirds in their 12×40’s in little old mobile home parks that once dotted the state.
Those relics and Ghosts from the Past could be the ONLY semi-permanant, law abiding, economically viable communities in entire friggin’ State of FLORIDA if things keep going like this
mikey,
Interesting wrinkle. And just why… would ‘that’ be? Well because it is sustainable, that’s why!
I’m not advocating schlocking together mobile home parks from P’cola to The Keys as the “answer” by any means. But it’s a damn sight more sensible then the path they’ve chose?
speaking of trailers, the HOG dealers, RV dealers, and “pre-fab home” dealers in Marion County are all running screaming TV ads about their “once in a lifetime deals–will never go lower” (until the firesale on their assets when they go tits up) as they attempt to unload inventory that no-one
wantscan obtain credit for.“Home in this case is a ‘floating condominium’ in a new ‘floating community’ called River Cities.”
“Nelson said that owners of smaller units can expect to pay $1,200 a month and those who own a ‘comfortable two bedroom’ will pay $2,000 a month to the association. The condominiums are priced anywhere from $55,000 to $1.8 million.”
About the time you think you’ve heard it all……….
As if the floating condo idea weren’t crazy enough…they expect people to cough up $1,200 per month in association fees!
“$1,200 per month in association fees”
Sunk costs.
About the time you think you’ve heard it all……….
It’s all quite logical. After all, they’re not making anymore land……..
From what I see, the blip up in Florida sales comes from houses that are selling for 50% or less of their peak prices. Anything will sell if the price is right - at least capitulation has begun around here, at all price levels. I ought to take some popcorn and a lawn chair down to the tax assessor’s office, so I can watch ‘em trying to figure out what to do next.
“I ought to take some popcorn and a lawn chair down to the tax assessor’s office, so I can watch ‘em trying to figure out what to do next.”
Raise the mill rates, of course. Serves the moron SOHers right too, I’ll be so happy to see their pain when their taxes go up; having thought they’d “controlled” the tax burden by shifting it to the younger generation. Couldn’t happen to a nicer, more reasonable bunch of people I tell ya!
The tax rates will simply go up to maintain the revenue at some multiple of “pre bubble” revenues. The FL tax system is so horribly broken it’s incredible, if you’re EVER thinking about buying in FL make sure you understand SOH, and how SOH works!
“The tax rates will simply go up to maintain the revenue at some multiple of “pre bubble” revenues. The FL tax system is so horribly broken it’s incredible, if you’re EVER thinking about buying in FL make sure you understand SOH, and how SOH works!”
Yup. Read this again, and again, and again…
Michael, you have no idea how many of my co-workers and whatnot don’t understand this. Actually, you probably do.
An increase in property tax while values are dropping may be the last straw for many FB’s here…myself included. It will make the foreclosure numbers go up even more.
“An increase in property tax while values are dropping may be the last straw for many FB’s here…myself included.”
That sucks, but that’s exactly how that crackhead plan is supposed to work.
I don’t know how anyone can continue to look at property values over $100K less than what they paid…again myself included…along with higher taxes and say, “I’ll just ride this one out.”
By the way Andy, you should stop paying, for real.
I have my own nuclear option: If the chit keeps hitting the fan, I am going to buy all of my families student loans with my stellar credit, and BK… discharged!
I’ll load up my families IRAs with our house funds to protect our cash.
Ghad… that could be ugly.
A lot of people who made fun of the Laffer curve might discover it has some first principles backing…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
Note: I think the dropoff is steeper than the idealized assumption in the wikipedia article. But I agree with the article noting that where you sit on the curve depends on how much you subscribe to the theory.
My mechanic has confided to me that if his taxes go up he will cut his business: end sub-leasing the samll shop next door (overflow space) and layoff a mechanic (or two). Why? His numbers say the proposed California tax increases will reduce his take home to zero (as the shop owner). He does assume that the reduced time spent managing means he can devote 1/2 time under the cars…
Got Popcorn?
Neil
No serious economist believes in the Laffer curve anymore.
I think he was jus’ funnin’…
For Mr. Neil’s post above:
From the link you provided:
“…It will vary from one economy to another and depends on the elasticity of supply for labor and various other factors.”
So the Cheney-Shrub “economic strategy” of “lowering” taxes…(while fighting x2 global wars)…is based on a valid & proven form of past success?
Comment by Neil
2009-02-17 12:57:32
“Ghad… that could be ugly.
A lot of people who made fun of the Laffer curve might discover it has some first principles backing…”
———————————
“In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the… Anyone? Anyone?… the Great Depression, passed the… Anyone?
Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?… raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression.” [THIS IS THE PART] Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. “Voodoo” economics.”
Which prompts another story from the Slim File: This past summer, I was changing planes in (Name of Former President Omitted) Intercontinental Airport in Houston.
Wouldn’t you know it, that airport has a big statue of you-know-who in one of the concourses. And I strode up to it and gave it a good talking-to.
Among other things, I told the statue that the person it depicted knew that those economics were of the voodoo variety, but said person sold out so that he could get on the 1980 Presidential ticket.
It was around that time when a security guard came over and glared at me. I moved on.
I think the US stopped exporting everything but scrap metal and rags a few years ago.
As long as we keep the tariffs low on those we should be ok!
According to the wiki article, the Kemp tax cut in 1981 caused a major drop in gov’t revenues.
It was all good, tho’… Reagan just took the moneys out of the FICA taxes … the AARP made a deal with CONgress to get their piggiest share while both together insured that future generations would never benefit from this “payroll deduction”.
I’m glad everyone is having fun bring back up Voodoo economics.
But every single small business owner I know of is scared. If their costs go up… they will lay off or even shut down. I know of two California based business that reversed an expansion when the owner realized the tax consequences were greater than the ‘hassle factor.’ Heck, with one medical office the owner realized that working an extra day per week to try and retire a year earlier… resulted in fewer available free days in his life.
At some point it is not worth running a business or keeping a home if the taxes are that bad. The point is that you cannot raise taxes to infinity on businesses. Oh… I’m not against capitol gains tax increases nor a few others. But the point is if you raise taxes too much, some people will chose not to play.
The counter examples given are far more extreme than the point I’m trying to make.
Or maybe just raise the damn taxes so homes will be that much cheaper. I personally do not want to see GDII.
No serious economist believes in the laffer curve? Ugh… Sorry, but there are a few who do (e.g., Shilling. Oh, he won’t discuss it in public as its such a derided concept..)
But then again, in America now, a work ethic is now made fun of… So is math.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Neil - I’m ashamed not to have given you credit for the popcorn in my post above. Likely few current posters know that you created the term, relative to the housing bubble/bust.
One of the biggest problems is that those who bought at peak values are not helped by SOH. They overpaid so much that they probably will never be helped by SOH. This is really, really big deal moving forward, when prices eventually go back up, those with SOH (who bought low) will keep their low taxes, those who grossly overpaid will have their taxes shoot up. It’s like a double kick in the n**ts, not only did they pay far too much for the home, but their taxes will be far too high forever. And, when they go to move, they won’t have any value to “port” to their new homes. It’s truly another financial disaster layered on-top of an already horrible decision.
SOH is a nightmare that FL just can’t wake up from. It will depress our home values forever, and will continue to cause an out-migration from FL until it is fixed. Cap the taxes (that total amount of tax paid), let the mill rates and appraisals float. Taxes have never gone up faster in FL then after the passage of SOH, it has been a total failure.
Mike,
Could you please give a one-line explanation for what SOH is? I don’t live in FL and don’t know anyone who lives there.
Sure.
SOH is a tax system to protect homeowners from onerous property tax increases. Basically, it works like this; if your a FL resident, and the home you buy is your primary residence, your assessed value cannot go up more than 3% per year, regardless of the actual change in value.
There are several big problems with this plan. For example, during the boom, someone who bought in 2000 for 100K and was a resident would see their taxes go up at 3% a year. The same person, who’s not a resident (or it’s not their primary property) would have seen their taxes go up at 30% (no, I’m not kidding) per year. Rental property is not protected, taxes were also increasing at 20-40% per year in all rentals. The mill rates were never adjusted, values went up 100-300% (appraised values) and the mill rates remained constant throughout the state (2% of value, or thereabouts).
That leads to situations where 2 people, in the same exact house, have tax bills that are 10X one another (one guy pays 1000/yr, the other pays 10,000/yr). That’s not academic, it wasn’t even all that uncommon during the boom.
As a “fix” to this problem, portability was introduced in 2006. Basically, it allows the guy who pays 1,000/yr to move across the street and take his 1,000/yr tax bill with him (assuming the home he moved to was equal value). This, of course, further distorts the system.
The final problem is that nearly all voters are protected by SOH, therefore, there’s little/no opposition to spending in FL, the new guy will pay for it, not the long time owners. This has lead, since the passage of SOH, to the biggest increase in taxes in history in FL (very predictably).
Basically, this system has locked out all first time buyers because of the insane taxes. Worse, if you overpay for a home you will not be protected by SOH, even if your taxes fall dramatically, when values go up, you won’t hit the 3% per year cap because your taxes have already fallen so far. It is destroying the FL housing market, and will keep it from recovering for years longer then it should take.
As a nice little “bonus” people buying today don’t seem to be able to get fair appraisals for SOH purposes. If you buy a home for 200K today, it’s possible that the appraiser could set your “SOH value” at 350K. This is obviously a huge problem, the difference between a 200K valuation and 350K is massive (especially when you consider that it sets your tax basis for the rest of your life, thanks to portability).
Sorry, that wasn’t one line at all.
I think it stands for FL’s “Save Our Homes” legislation. Which looks like it hasn’t saved too many homes.
Some other issues… first $25k there is no state tax. This was supposed to protect the indigent who own their homes (vets, whatever)
then houses went up so they proposed to increase this to $50k … after all, you could not find a house for $25k
but they put in on the range from 50K to 75K … a blatant attempt to keep house prices high … thank you NAR (to get full “benefit” your house must be $75k, rather than $50k, see?)
as for rentals… for Joe Shmoe renting a second house the scenario you laid out may be the case … but for commercial property management co’s it’s been nothing but a bonanza. Valuation was capped at $25K per apt unit even though they were renting for far higher than $250/mo! Which ought to be prima facie evidence that the taxable value per unit should be far higher! Thus, a great advantage to the commercial prop guys vs. little guys like Joe Shmoe. But this is not all.
This passing off the of the tax burden by the rental co’s made the city government a willing partner with infestors and developers to convert these properties to condos (for which they needed some sort of variance or zoning change) and of course turn the former residents out into the street. Mayor Pegeen Hanrahan was gloating in the paper about all the gravy coming her way when “savvy buyers” would “snap up” these condos and start paying on a $120-150K SOH basis!
Oh–and I bet they have a lot of unpaid tax bills right about now. Hehehe.
Not a Gator - now there’s something I didn’t know - the possibly covert protection of apartment landlords. Thanks for that.
OK so SOH really is Florida’s version of California’s Prop 13. I thought it could have been “senior occupied housing” tax which could have been narrowly-tailored to be a tax relief to low-income seniors only.
I guess FL didn’t learn from CA’s mistake.
ID actually has a targetted property tax relief for seniors, called “circuit breaker”. You have to have less than certain income thresholds to qualify: then a percentage of the normal property tax is forgiven. Helps only poorer seniors, not rich retirees.
Normal ID property tax is based upon annual appraisals, where the assessor’s office multiplies your recorded square footage by a dollar/square foot figure for your neighborhood. Owner-occupied houses subtract a $100K exemption prior to multiplying by about 1% to get the tax bill. E.g. my place is worth $250K so I pay about 1% on $150K - my bill was lowered to about $1,600 this year.
I am presently a snow bird here in Sarasota Fl and as look at the 4:30 pm crowd at one of the popular eateries on highway 41 (one that is still in business) I see white, middle class, over 60yo persons and wonder who will replace these persons when the die off/ Will my generation (i am 52yo) replace all of these oldsters?
Regarding Port Charlotte…yech..there is NOTHING to do there..yes there is the beach but any sort of life is 80 miles north to Tampa or a two hour drive to Miami…growing up here in Florida.. that area of the state should have been left the backwater area that it always was
“I see white, middle class, over 60yo persons and wonder who will replace these persons when the die off”
This is the mantra I use to calm some of my closest friends down when we get all worked up about boomers: all we have to do is wait.
The likely answer to your question is, yes. People who spend their lives as manufacturing workers or low-level civil servants in the northeast can afford a FL house (at the new low prices) when they retire, and the weather is a big attraction, along with the Zero Percent state income tax. But, it will take a while to clear the inventory of houses that were bought by Infestors.
Hey Megamike,
I’m in my thirties, and my in-laws live in Punta Gorda (across the bridge from Port Charlotte). I’ve been to many cocktail parties, and I’ve played a lot of tennis with the old-timers who live there. Personally, I hate the area, but I like the people. I believe they should have never developed swampland with the “no see’ems” which swarm at dusk, but they love it there, and I’ve met many people who are happy there.
I think the difference is that the area has a lot to offer in the way of boating. Many people have vacation boats in their back yards where they live on canals. They spend a lot of weekends out on the islands where they congregate for cocktail parties, and they organize 3 month-long trips to the Bahamas. Also, many, many of them have smaller fishing boats. There are just so many of the older folks that it makes for a great social life. I believe my in-laws are the busiest people I’ve ever met -and they are retired. Believe me, they have a life…
I’m 51 years old, live in Arizona, and that already gives me a front row seat at What Happens to People When They Retire.
And, here’s an example from the Slim Story File:
Several years ago, I was on the board for the local Michigan alumni club. The board members (most of them retirees) were discussing possible speakers for upcoming events.
A fellow board member (who was a close friend) and I suggested someone from the world of physics. After all, the University of Michigan has a pretty good physics department, and their faculty have been known to travel to alumni events.
My fellow board member had been a newspaper reporter in southern Illinois, and in the course of our conversation about possible U-M physicist/speakers, she mentioned that her editor was the brother of Murray Gell-Mann. The rest of the board members looked baffled.
Fellow Board Member tried to come to their rescue by saying that Gell-Mann had won the Nobel Prize in physics. More puzzled looks.
I might add that when my mother and father visited me here, I took them to an alumni club meeting. My mother was struck by the lack of intellectual curiosity in the room.
And, that, people is what happens to your brain on drugs, er, retirement.
To each his own. We couldn’t be happier in this community of (mostly) retirees. The social/support network is amazing, to the point where the majority of folks who lose their spouses choose to stay here rather than leave to be near the kids. My wife and I agree that whichever of us outlives the other will continue to stay here.
You say that now… My wife’s grandmother was moaning the other day about how all their friends in their South Florida community had died … and Gramps is having a lot of health issues … luckily they have family close by
It’s also tough for them because driving has become very difficult, and they’re in one of those places where you have to drive everywhere.
It’s very pretty, though.
Auh…err…phist..phist Slim… wasn’t the Laws of Physics SUSPENDED along with along with Science by W and the gang ?
I believe that a few Americans may need a Secret Executive Order, a Clearance from both NSA and the Christian Right plus a personal note from either Rove or Rush to even think about, much less to consider Physics, retirement or BRAINS
You must have been at Barnacle Bill’s. Only place, in your area and on 41, that I know of worth patronizing. They offer good food at close-enough prices. As I remember, happy hour drinks are 2-fers, which pulls in the blue hairs big–time. Gulf Coast restaurants that don’t cater to old farts, generally, are doomed in the current economy, IMO.
The Gulf seafood is incredible. Almost, but not quite, makes it worth living over there.
An update on my deal with the Cape Coral flippers
1. The history
As posted on HBB last fall, I lent $54,400 at 10% per annum to a couple of flippers who were buying an REO from Deutsche Bank in October for a nominal $68K. They regarded the foreclosure flood as the Opportunity of a Lifetime. The flippers’ business plan was, spend $1000 and some of their own labor making the 3BR/2BA Cape Coral house more presentable, then hold an open house and sell to the highest bidder. However, at the OH in early Nov, they told the lookers that the minimum acceptable bid would be $79K. Oops. No bids.
2. The update
The house is not (re)sold. The flippers made the Nov, Dec, and Jan payments promptly. My lien is not yet recorded, because Deutsche Bank’s chosen title agency is highly sloppy; however, they do claim that they have now sent the executed mortgage to the Lee County Clerk, whose website I can check daily for a recording. The flippers have now realized that their best exit plan may be to offer “seller” financing — which really means, keep my $54K lien in place, and accept a second mortgage deed from any likely buyer. My personal business plan, as previously posted on HBB, is that if the flippers throw in the towel, I will own a 5-yr-old 3BR/2BA in SW FL for $54,400. Whether I would then use it for myself, or try to sell it for $60K (??) with True Seller Financing, I am not sure.
Where in SW Florida is this home? I don’t want to be the bad news Bad Andy, but there are homes in some parts of SW Florida that won’t be marketable at any price regardless of age. They just plain built too much. I’m the one who learned the painful lesson here on the SE part of the state.
If it’s in a reasonably populated area and not on the fringes, then I would say it’s not a bad $54K home for you. I hope everything works out.
I never liked that deal and said so since your first post.
A little further down South in Naples, you can now buy a 2/2 condo for 50K, that’s mid 90s prices.
—
I plan to buy in my neck of the woods in SF at 1999 prices (presently 2003+-)
Prettiest sunsets=Naples.
Muir - I believe we will get back to 1998 all-round in central/south Florida, if not a tad below that in some cases. Non-adjusted numbers, mind you. I am already (sooner than I expected, after 2008’s sorta’ stall) seeing that in central FL. But I wish AZ-Lender luck - he/she’s been a faithful HBBer for a long time and has given us a lot of good information and advice.
I’ve been to cape coral before the boom. there’s no good reason for houses to be there. you’ll see that when you move in.
It still amazes me, although it shouldn’t, that no matter how horrible the real estate situation gets in Florida, the solution is ALWAYS - sell more real estate. They just can’t change, they just have no earthly idea what else to do. If a given town suddenly broke off and sank 200 feet under the ocean, the very next day their town council would be voting on condo permits.
“If a given town suddenly broke off and sank 200 feet under the ocean, the very next day their town council would be voting on condo permits.”
OMFG, I think I just crapped myself I am laughing so hard. So true.
Timely:
http://tampabay.com/news/politics/legislature/article976378.ece
LOL! Perhaps a new Carl Hiaasen book will be hitting the shelves soon!
State officials estimate more than 300,000 Florida houses are vacant. Why add more, asked Audubon’s Eric Draper.
Why, indeed. Most apropos, Muggy.
Faith-based business plan.
Kinda sounds like the same people who state that no matter how good or bad the economy is, the answer is always to cut taxes and decrease regulation…but never to balance budgets and require transparency.
Sounds like the Arizona legislature. And our new governor.
It’s the only high paying industry that employs lots of people in this state. Without RE, there aren’t many high paying jobs, and then the economy just falls further off a cliff (what’s happening right now). Those who live in FL also suffer from blindness, I keep hearing the “no more land” speech from RE agents (and plenty of other people) despite the fact that this entire state is FULL of empty lots/land. There are 1000’s of acres of undeveloped land in every corner of the state, which will make the fall even worse. There’s simply no constraint on land, we could put 10X the number of homes in FL and still not come close to a land restriction.
SFC - good one.
Posted in bits in the Morning
For all Florida fans!!
Shedenfreud!!!!!
abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=6867448&page=1
(add www to above and voila! Enjoy)
This is pure bliss to read.
Indeed, that was incredibly cathartic to read. I feel tingly all over hearing about the rise and fall of this moron. You’re selling homes, not saving lives, and not really contributing anything at all to society. So sorry to see your Rolls Royce and chopper get taken away. What a sin.
I’m glad you enjoyed it Mike.
Oh man, saw one episode of the show on TLC. I just remember his protege/driver Miki couldn’t pass the real estate exam. Sounds like he still has NOT passed the test. And he’s downgraded to a Land Rover instead of a Rolls Royce. LOL
‘The banks are hoarding money; the banks aren’t lending anything,’
Banks will always lend to credit worthy customers with credit worthy projects. And therein lies the problem.
I wish that wasn’t so true that it made me smile.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
“Riverside chairman Elmer Tabor knew the end was near as early as December. Tabor…said the bank’s failure is the result of the fallout from the housing crisis and not due to mismanagement. Construction loans that typically would be picked up by secondary market lenders like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Wells Fargo and others were left on Riverside’s books.”
What then, is the definition of mismanagement??
I threw up a little in my mouth reading that article. He’s busted now because he can’t dump his lousy loans on some greater fool Yankee banks? What a douche.
Mismanagement is not a word in Florida dictionaries.
In the old days, Miss-management might have been.
If you didn’t catch the PBS show tonight on the meltdown, I suggest jumping to the pbs.org website and watching it. If the producers of this show weren’t taking direct quotes from this blog, I’ll be damned.
On TV right now on West Coast - (9PM PST)
Methinks Wall Street overrates the effect of rumors and underrates the effect of catastrophically bad financial mismanagement on the value of corporate shares. Of course, the rumor explanation places the blame squarely on the messenger, whereas the financial mismanagement explanation places the responsibility on top management.
‘So many things are skewing values,’ said Rex Govorchin, president of the Englewood Area Board of Realtors. ‘It’s a real circus out there.’”
I wonder if Rex thought anything was skewing values when anyone who could fog a mirror could get a 500K mortgage?
More stupidity from the Gainesville City Commission:
City May Purchase Mom’s Kitchen
Owner of this commercial property, which houses a restaurant (still in operation with different chef AFAIK) is trying to get the city to save her from her “beeels”.
5th Ave is an avenue of blight. Besides which, a whole bunch of subsidized housing (some residents were living for free) is getting turned into something else. For all this talk of “preserving” this historically Black neighborhood (almost put that part in scare quotes, but that’s true as far as that goes) it seems more like City policy since 1980 has been to turn it into and keep it a ghetto.
If this lady gets foreclosed on, someone will buy it for market price and keep using it as a restaurant. Big effing deal. City wants it so they can stash more offices in it or tear down the building and hold onto the lot so they can give it to somebody in one of their perennial horse trades. Half the commercial buildings in this district have fallen into the city’s hands already … now that I see how the game is played, it’s not at all surprising. Meanwhile they will trot the
ownerloaner out to generate sympathy.Faster Permits for Affordable Scumbags, I mean Housing
Several incentives for the construction of affordable housing, including quicker permitting, were approved Tuesday by the Alachua County Commission.
Only Mike Byerly (go, Mike!) rejected this BS. He was victim of a smear campaign during county elections, fortunately electorate was not fooled.
The county is nearing a deadline for revising its affordable housing plans, said housing programs manager Tom Webster.
“There is a potential loss of $1.2 million in (State Housing Initiative Partnership) funding if a plan is not adopted,” Webster said.
This is what as known as “creating a false sense of urgency.” What does the deadline have to do with these rule changes? Nothing.
Commissioners supported permitting for affordable housing within six days of the application being found sufficient. The current requirement is 10 days.
The faster permitting will apply to nonprofit homebuilders such as Habitat for Humanity and commercial builders. Officials said the change will not create difficult deadlines for permitting staff.
Nice, so commercial builders get their permits in less than a week, while the rest of us can get in line. Somehow I doubt Hab for Hum is building much this year since most of their donors/volunteers seem to be lawyers and I believe they’re quite busy right about now. Charitable donations in general are way off. And housing is getting more affordable by the day. People on disability are looking at buying now, if the deal is right. Houses are cheap and getting cheaper.
These people in the city commission are on crack… it’s called permitting fees … very addictive, I hear.