May 6, 2009

Bits Bucket For May 6, 2009

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398 Comments »

Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-05-06 06:05:31

Got FDIC?

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 06:06:43

It’s all good! Right?

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-05-06 06:16:01

Banks returning bailouts will face conditions.
Banks must shed FDIC guarantees if they want to return bailout funds

On Wednesday May 6, 2009, 7:36 am EDT
Print WASHINGTON (AP) — Banks that want to pay back their federal bailout funds and free themselves from government restrictions on compensation and dividends will have to sever their ties to another financial assistance program.

Financial firms eager to return infusions from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program will have to demonstrate that they can operate without debt guarantees provided by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., a senior government official said Tuesday. The FDIC program allows financial institutions to borrow money at lower costs.

The new requirement will make it harder for some institutions to get out from under government rules attached to the bailouts, another shift in a changing landscape for banks. It also illustrates the government’s desire not to have banks abandon the bailout program if they are not financially prepared to do so.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the standards have not been made public. The Treasury and the Federal Reserve are expected to issue TARP repayment guidelines on Wednesday, a response to banks that want to get out from under bailout conditions. The change was first reported Tuesday evening by The Wall Street Journal.

By linking the two programs, the government could motivate banks to cut themselves off from the various assistance programs that it put in place to unclog credit and free up lending in the midst of the financial crisis.

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 06:50:32

Play fast and loose with our TARP restrictions, and we’ll make sure your bank re-enacts that scene out of It’s a Wonderful Life; with details on the news at 11.

Now that’s a threat with teeth.

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 07:01:45

Borrower is slave to the lender.

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Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 08:12:37

I wonder who is behind this new rule. Was it TTTimmy? Heliben? I would guess it’s Obama pulling the strings. Rope-a-dope-followed-by-a-TKO™ sounds like Obama’s MO.

 
 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 11:59:48

Seriously. If my bank loses FDIC my cash is coming out that day!

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Comment by Shizo
2009-05-06 13:00:40

That is what the guv is hoping for. That way the banksters play nice…

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 13:13:33

I know it’s what they want. But I don’t trust the banks even WITH the FDIC right now. And knowing that the bank is going to have a run on it doesn’t make me want to be the guy trying to convince people not to do it.

Fortunately, my Credit Union took no TARP money.

 
Comment by Shizo
2009-05-06 13:39:12

There are some scary things brewing for credit unions (my wife works for one) The NCUA is sticking it to all the little ones for mistakes a few huges ones made. Be wary of them all. I’m about 50% matress at this point. :)

But then again I’m just a poor dad of 2. I don’t stand a chance if this gets UGLY.

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 15:47:30

I’m splitting the difference. I’ve got about a year and a half in salary split between a credit union and big-boy bank, figuring both won’t go down at the same time. I’ve got another year and a halfs salary in utility/oil/etc type stocks. My wife and I both have about half a year each of salary in 401k all in bonds/treasuries. And we have zero debt.

What don’t we have? A house. Cause we can’t afford one.

 
Comment by neuromance
2009-05-06 17:51:34

That is what the guv is hoping for. That way the banksters play nice…

What do the finance executives care? They’ve been gaming the system. Job 1 is to enrich themselves and their compatriots. If the company goes under, I don’t see them being too personally bothered. They want to give back TARP funds because of pay restrictions in the first place.

 
Comment by alvin
2009-05-06 21:51:50

relax.

the FDIC debt guarantee (TLGP) has nothing to do with your deposit insurance.

Banks have been using the TLGP as a cheap source of financing. All that article is stating is that the government isn’t going to all banks to borrow under the TLGP facility to pay off TARP funds.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 06:09:40

IMF calls for Asia to ‘flood’ banking system, cut interest rates
Report marks drastic about-face from earlier advice during the last crisis.
By Chris Oliver, MarketWatch
Last update: 12:42 a.m. EDT May 6, 2009

HONG KONG (MarketWatch) — Asia Pacific nations should flood their banking systems with liquidity and actively support credit growth using unconventional monetary policy and accommodative fiscal policy, the International Monetary Fund said Wednesday.
The global financial body urged the measures as part of a “forceful” strategy to last through next year in efforts to counter the effects of the global crisis.
The IMF also called for a refocusing upon domestic demand and away from exports as a source of economic growth, noting that consumption in the key export destinations of the U.S. and Europe could remain weak for years to come.
The measures, it said, were needed to counter an “astonishing” economic contraction in the poorest nations in the region, excluding China and India, in which gross domestic product fell a seasonally adjusted 15% during the fourth quarter.
The IMF made the recommendations in its Regional Economic Outlook, released Wednesday in Singapore.
“The spillovers from the global crisis have impacted Asia with unexpected speed and force,” the report said. “The downswing has been even larger than in other regions, and sharper than at the epicenter of the global crisis.”
Eating their words
The recommendations are a radical departure from the fiscal austerity measures that the IMF demanded as part of bailout packages during the 1997-98 collapse in the region’s currency and asset markets.

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 06:12:56

Cash is s#*^

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 07:24:17

Does that make your current position “long s#*^”?

;)

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 08:05:20

The reverse Blue.
:-)

I’m up quite nicely.

Though your point is excellent, what do you do when you cash out.

This point is missed constantly.

The correct question is what basket of goods will I be able to buy when I close my position versus what basket I could have bought when I started.
This point is missed by many, even here.

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Comment by Shizo
2009-05-06 13:04:29

Where do I aquire one of these “baskets”?
Just giving you a hard time, but it illustrates a great point. Most people can’t afford the basket let alone the goods that go into it. Unless of course they accept MasterDebt(tm).

 
 
Comment by Captain john
2009-05-06 08:22:06

Umm, does this suggest that Gold is going to end up as “King s#*^”?

If all currencies are racing to the bottom and cranking up th e printing presses.

Though as I write these words, I cringe at the gold bugs and non gold bugs starting a fight. I’m no Gold freak, but this does look like a reason to at least hold some of the precious metal…

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-05-06 06:36:35

So basicly the idea is that the Yuan should join the Dollar in the “race to the bottom”. Why do I feel like Bernake should be singing “Print, print, as fast as you can, you can’t catch me, I’m the devaluation man.”

Comment by In Colorado
2009-05-06 08:18:15

And let’s not forget his secret, super hero identity: Inflation Man!

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 08:33:53

LOL! What’s funny is that HeliBen actually ‘looks’ like the Gingerbread Man!

Comment by Jimmy Jazz
2009-05-06 08:45:31

Does that make Timmeh! the Muffin Man?

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Comment by milkcrate
2009-05-06 12:27:37

Former Secretary of State: Little Bo Peep.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:33:13

“The recommendations are a radical departure from the fiscal austerity measures that the IMF demanded as part of bailout packages during the 1997-98 collapse in the region’s currency and asset markets.”

Does the IMF recommendation generally depend on whether or not the US is facing the same crisis as the other countries involved?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 06:11:02

Partially completed SoCal housing tract demolished
Troubled housing market brings wrecking ball down on partially completed SoCal homes…
On Wednesday May 6, 2009, 7:53 am EDT

VICTORVILLE, Calif. (AP) — A foreclosed tract of partially completed homes was demolished after the bank that owns the project deemed it a hazard and calculated that finishing and selling the dwellings would be a money-losing proposition, a bank official said Tuesday.

The planned 16-unit tract on the fringes of a suburb about 65 miles northeast of Los Angeles included four finished homes with granite countertops, whirlpool bathtubs and dual-pane windows.

“The current economic environment requires difficult decisions be made by the government, by banks and by individuals,” said John Wessman, a spokesman for Guaranty Bank of Austin, Texas. “We made the difficult decision to return the site to a safe, clean and undeveloped state keeping in mind the best interests of the community and our shareholders.”

Crews began tearing down the structures in late April and completed their work Tuesday.

Building permits had been issued for the development in September 2007, Victorville city spokeswoman Yvonne Hester told the Los Angeles Times.

At the time, the median price for a home in San Bernardino County, where Victorville is located, was $325,000, according to San Diego-based tracking firm MDA DataQuick.

In March, the most recent month for which data is available, the median price for the county was $160,000, DataQuick said.

Comment by James
2009-05-06 06:32:49

Can we salvage the windows and things like that? I’m renting but better insulating windows would be a welcome addition.

Glad to see the scouring of the Shire is continuing.

Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 07:13:54

It’s too bad they couldn’t have Habitat for Humanity or whoever come out the week before for an authorized “strip party”. But I can see why they couldn’t - it might interfere with the developer and the relationship with the banks.

Comment by REhobbyist
2009-05-06 07:21:21

I have a problem with Habitat. I saw a recent listing of a former Habitat house that is foreclosed after its owner took out $200,000 in a refinance. And the overt religiosity of its solitications turns me off. I stopped donating last year. Plus, we don’t need no more stinkin’ houses.

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Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 07:45:26

“2009-05-06 07:21:21
I have a problem with Habitat. I saw a recent listing of a former Habitat house that is foreclosed after its owner took out $200,000 in a refinance”

Cash out refi for humanity.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 08:30:32

“I saw a recent listing of a former Habitat house that is foreclosed after its owner took out $200,000 in a refinance.”

Can you provide a pointer to info on this? I thought there were deed restrictions placed on Habitat homes that would prevent this. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-05-06 09:42:04

Well what are the chances that the mortgage company didn’t bother to check for deed restrictions? “Hey, these can fog a mirror, what more do you want, an ability to repay the loan? That’s crazy talk.”

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 13:27:02

Since the deed restriction would be attached to the recorded deed at the county courthouse, it would be the mortgage _insurance_ company that should catch this. And a failure to catch it could potentially mean the transfer of ownership could be challenged in the future.

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 14:14:46

Not if it`s bulldozed.

 
 
 
Comment by Elanor
2009-05-06 10:21:43

If this is the scouring of the Shire, who’s Sharkey?

Comment by Central Valley Guy
2009-05-06 12:28:00

Bill Gross of Pimpco.

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Comment by Central Valley Guy
2009-05-06 12:29:33

Sorry, better one is Tangelo Mozilo.

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Comment by Elanor
2009-05-06 14:02:27

Actually, the scouring occurred when all that land was cleared for building subdivisions. Now the inhabitants have the difficult task of trying to restore the land to its former condition.

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Comment by packman
2009-05-06 14:32:04

It’ll never happen.

There is still tons of land in the west for instance that was never restored from being stripped via hydraulic mining for gold and silver in the 1800’s. And that didn’t involve asphalt roads and underground pipes like these neighborhoods did.

That is a bit apples and orange though. In the end this land probably will eventually be developed as the population catches up with the appropriate housing inventory. It’ll be a long, long time though, depending on the area. (Some areas like Cape Coral and Lehigh Acres Florida still aren’t closed to being been filled out since they were first developed in the 1950’s)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-05-06 06:36:38

“We made the difficult decision to return the site to a safe, clean and undeveloped state keeping in mind the best interests of the community and our shareholders.”

I’m crying tears of joy! I’m no tree hugger, but I prefer them returning that place to nature than to have 50 or 60 littering, burying used motor oil, and causing hazardous chemical runoff to destroy that plot for decades, or centuries.

Off and on, I donate to the Nature Conservancy, a private organization that buys up bare land and preserves it from being trashed by humans. It’s one of my favorite charities, besides the Heart Association and American Cancer Society.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 09:27:30

I AM a tree-hugger, and I too am crying tears of joy—-or maybe it’s just the rain leaking down my face—although I’d be crying even bigger, brighter, and better tears of joy if they hadn’t fooked up the place to begin with*. I don’t know what it looked like before, if it was a forest, or orchards, or a farm, or some desert land, but it’s not like you can wave your magic bulldozer and return it to an ‘undeveloped’ state. It takes a long time to grow a tree, get some undergrowth and healthy habitat going.

And +100 on the Nature Conservancy donations.

*Talk about a TOTAL waste of resources, too.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 10:13:40

By “undeveloped”, I think he just means nothing for the town to tax or fine. Not the same as “unspoilt”.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 11:42:03

Not the same as “unspoilt”.

It sure ain’t.
And speaking of rain and unspoilt; gone on any more rain + pollen field-trips lately? Haw!
;)

 
 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-05-06 09:38:09

Bill, I’m also a big fan of the Nature Conservancy.

They take a very pragmatic, work-within-the-system approach to preserving land and ecosystems — their approach has been highly effective, IMO.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 06:55:53

“…At the time, the median price for a home in San Bernardino County, where Victorville is located, was $325,000″ ;-)

The only plausible “bidness” plans that can make the above number have a viable future is to:

1. Legalize wacky tabbacy
2. Make the federal minimum wage: $29.55 per hour
3.
4.
5.
6.

Comment by samk
2009-05-06 07:01:36

I don’t even think you can afford a 325K house at $29.55/hr unless you are getting lots of OT.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 07:04:48

But, but, but…Irvine CA is a “PLANNED” community!

The “plan” is for EVERYONE to afford a $650,000 apartment home condo townhouse! Right? RIGHT? ;-)

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Comment by InMontana
2009-05-06 12:44:25

Uh, we’re in Victorville, bub. You must have missed the offramp.

 
 
 
Comment by takingbets
2009-05-06 07:04:08

Don’t go given them any ideas on raising the minimum wage HWY50, my business can’t afford that right now. :-)

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 07:11:20

Make the federal minimum wage: $29.55 per hour

Hush! Don’t mention this. That Irishman O’bama might hear you.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-05-06 07:22:09

It already is, on a limited basis anyway.

One word:

Patronage

It’s the Chicago way, ya know!

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Comment by hd74man
2009-05-06 10:35:05

RE: Make the federal minimum wage: $29.55 per hour

$64.00 per hour is Federal scale for bricklayers on the all the public works projects being financed with stimulus money per 53YO masonry company owner friend.

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Comment by packman
2009-05-06 11:12:05

No offense to bricklayers - but that’d be $128k per year - for bricklaying??!!

We are F’ed.

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 12:08:05

I think I just laid my own brick in my shorts when I saw that.

 
Comment by Terry
2009-05-06 12:16:18

A bricklayer is a very skilled worker. lets see how many people can lay a wall of brick and have it straight and level. To be a brick layer, you have to be able to think and have common sense. $68.00 an hour for these attributes is cheap! My point being, that its ok to pay a non productive stock trader, an investor, ot an it technician big bucks, but its not ok to pay big bucks to someone who actually works for a living.

 
Comment by Laurel, md
2009-05-06 13:06:21

The Federal Davis Bacon wage rate (used on all fed projects) for my county in Maryland is $26.70hr plus $6.77fringe…. Google davis bacon wage rates….If he is a union contractor it could be slightly higher. The $68hr does not seem correct.

 
Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-05-06 13:09:11

I’m making less than half that, fixing/repairing airframes, jet engines and all the associated systems, and putting my family’s financial future on the line every time I sign off a logbook/preflight……and I’m considered “well paid”. There are a lotta guys in my line of work only making $15-20/hour.

Keeping those bricks “straight and level”……yeah, I’m guessing that’s a real challenge, at least to all the borderline drunks/meth-heads I’ve seen working construction.

Bricklayer making $68/hour = guy that will be out of work soon.

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2009-05-06 13:23:36

Yes, you need to think and have common sense to be a good bricklayer, also experience. But, 68 bucks an hour is way out of line. Where is your common sense?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:00:30

X-GSfixer!

TOO… damn funny! Over Guard weekend I was talking to one of the former Marine F-18 techs and we were laughing our a$$es off. I asked him what was so damn funny? He said; Dude, can you believe we’re even getting paid at ALL for this?

The guy is an IT mgr. in his f/t position, degree and over 20 years of Aviation experience. We figure we avg. about $23 an hour. Oh! And don’t run off, we’ll be having a urinalisys and across the board @ss-chewing about the cr@ppy “attitudes” around here!? LOL!

 
Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:48:09

I used to get fussed about workmen (plumbers, bricklayers, etc.) making too much.

Then I learned how much corporate money-shifters make.

And about working-class wages stagnating in real inflation.

Now I think powah to the people - and the more people who actually WORK, get paid, the better. Less for the idle class to speculate with.

Really what this is fretting about is inflation, not overpaying wages per se - devaluing the dollar. If it’s going to be devalued anyway, why not let joe bricklayer get more of the paper along the way?

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-05-07 00:11:47

Totally agree, Renfield.

 
 
 
 
Comment by peter a
2009-05-06 06:57:07

They need to replant the Joshua Trees.

Comment by Captain john
2009-05-06 08:29:48

Can I request they plant genetically modified Joshua Trees that mature quicker and larger?

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-05-06 09:07:09

They need to replant the Joshua Trees.

Yes, because you can never have enough empty convenience store bags snagged in branches.

Grumble, grumble.

Feh.

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-05-06 07:19:09

HBB posters predicted this demolition scenario years ago.

 
Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 07:20:59

Way to Go Victorville…make it a friggn’ Reality !

I have joked about it for years.

Tear down those houses and crowd me out with homeless people. Keep it up and I won’t have a spot to pitch MY TENT down by the tracks next to the river at the Victorville Narrows durring this recession.

:)

Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 08:08:17

My old camping spot at the Victorville Narrows .

It has plenty of running water, jack rabbits and Golf just up the tracks and over the hill. Other than cops, trains, rattlers and the occassional flash flooding, it’s relatively problem free living:)

http://www.roamingphotos.com/us/ca/victorville/mojavenarrows/

Comment by desertdweller
2009-05-06 09:35:46

Homeless and they/we still have alot of stuff/crap. Those pics showed that we can’t seem to get along without alot of stuff.
After my house burned down, not a thing left but me in pjs, RedCross gave me a comb,toothbrush/paste and small container of lotion in a small bag. IF that don’t put your mind forever in a surreal state, nothing will. I have embraced the less is more concept.

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Comment by Silvyerback1011
2009-05-07 03:53:04

Wow. Well, at least they look friendly, wellfed and clean. I wonder if they wash in the river ?

 
 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 07:26:06

“Crews began tearing down the structures in late April and completed their work Tuesday.”

They are making more land.

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 08:19:31

+1

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 09:31:05

+2, and add some loud laughing.

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Comment by lavi d
2009-05-06 09:35:08

They are making more land.

We have hit bottom!

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-05-07 09:48:20

Construction and demolition.

Sort of reminds me of paying folks to dig ditches, and other folks to fill them in.

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-05-06 08:31:08

No, not the granite countertops! NOooooooooo!

“The planned 16-unit tract on the fringes of a suburb about 65 miles northeast of Los Angeles included four finished homes with granite countertops, whirlpool bathtubs and dual-pane windows.”

Comment by desertdweller
2009-05-06 09:36:57

What the heck DID they do with all that usable stuff?
More landfill? How “smart” of them.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-05-06 11:08:45

From a Corporation’s perspective, they are better off scrapping it/ bulldozing it under.

The manufacturers won’t warranty it, and if someone tries to reuse it, they will be a-hole deep in lawsuits if there are problems.

Similar to the time that Mazda scrapped every car on one of their auto transport ships, when it almost capsized a few years back…….something like 6000 cars, as I recall.

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Comment by hip in zilker
2009-05-06 12:08:39

I hope that the demolition crews managed to salvage lots for themselves, friends, family…

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 15:15:44

Me, too. I absolutely can’t stand waste. It makes me crazy when I see it, and this case is a STERLING example of how not to do things.

 
 
 
Comment by Julius
2009-05-06 13:01:04

I wonder how much granite was mined during the boom for the sole purpose of being used as countertops.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 13:30:14

The good news is that granite is not scarce—it is abundantly available in nature.

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Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 13:45:03

Yes, just drive out west from Austin, TX, and you’ll find plenty. In fact there’s a huge mound of it near Fredericksburg.

 
Comment by packman
2009-05-06 13:58:34

Yes it’s something you can definitely take for granite.

(bad-dum-bum)

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 15:16:47

Yes, just drive out west from Austin, TX, and you’ll find plenty. In fact there’s a huge mound of it near Fredericksburg.

Yes, but is it the highly desirable and special radioactive kind of granite?

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 15:50:27

I’m not sure about that, but it’s mystical, even enchanted…

(I’m referring to enchanted rock, which is a big granite mound that “groans” in the summer as it cools down at night)

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-05-06 20:11:55

My friend Glenn and I scattered his friend Irwin’s ashes at Enchanted Rock a few years ago. No inscription, no personal plot, but a huge granite monument - one of those sacred rock places.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 06:12:31

Home Prices: Low, But Still No Bargain

http://tinyurl.com/cmlkzy

It’s a month old but a good reinforcement for HBB’ers. Click on the comments tab and read some of those. Appears to be a few realturds developed their own LiarsClub in there.

Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 06:53:00

“Over the long term, average home prices have tended to track average earnings. And by this measure the market may have much further to fall.”

“I looked at Case-Shiller’s index back to 1987 and compared it to federal data on average earnings. The result, rebased to 100 in January 1987, can be seen here. And it’s alarming. By this (admittedly very simple) measure, today’s home prices are actually more expensive, in relation to average earnings, than at the peak of the 1989 property bubble.”

Has there ever been a period when housing prices were rising when payroll taxes were falling as they are now?

Average American wages have been slowly declining for about three decades. The days of making up the difference with increasing debt are over. With an oversupply of housing and less money for everything, housing prices almost certainly have to continue to fall when measured in purchasing power.

Comment by Julius
2009-05-06 13:13:15

Never mind the fact that the housing boom happened due to the purchasing efforts of the largest American generation in history. As that generation starts retiring and downsizing, there simply won’t be enough demand for the price of larger houses to stay elevated.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 16:44:27

“Average American wages have been slowly declining for about three decades.”

As a result of Reaganomics. It failed.

 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 06:15:22

(Hwy thinks to himself that perhaps he will never find the chance to rub elbows with folks like this at a polo game?) ;-)

filed under: “Listen pal, I’m a de-greed “Professional”! …or…”Why Capitalist like leverage” ;-)

“It didn’t make sense for the kind of business they were doing.” He also wondered why Sentinel had leveraged itself to the eyeballs; it had almost $3 billion in debt on a capital base of just $3 million.

Grede says the hunt bore quick fruit when he and his legal crew started rummaging through the effects and phone and e-mail trails of Mosley, Sentinel’s head trader and a five-year veteran of the firm.

The discovery of Chicago Bears season tickets tucked into Mosley’s trading desk drawer seemed of no consequence at first — until Grede and his sleuths say they began to understand Mosley’s passion for attending sporting events.

Bankruptcy Sleuths Find Cash in Trader Receipts for Lap Dancers:

May 5 (Bloomberg) By Seth Lubove

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 06:17:29

Almost One-Quarter of U.S. Homeowners Underwater as Values Sink…

May 6 (Bloomberg) — A growing number of U.S. homeowners owe more than their properties are worth after prices extended their two-year decline in the first quarter, Zillow.com said.

Almost 21.8 percent of all owners were underwater as of March 31, the Seattle-based real estate data service said in a report today. At the end of the fourth quarter, 17.6 percent of homeowners owed more than their original mortgage, while 14.3 percent had negative equity three months earlier.

Property values dropped 14 percent from a year earlier in the first quarter, reducing the median value of all U.S. single- family homes, condominiums and cooperatives to $182,378, Zillow said. The gain in underwater homeowners will lead to more bank repossessions, the company said.

Many owners “would be more willing to bear the financial consequences of bankruptcy or foreclosure,” Stan Humphries, Zillow’s vice president of data and analytics, said in an interview. “You are going to continue to see home prices fall for the rest of this year and some portion of next year.”

The recession cut home values by $2.4 trillion last year, First American CoreLogic said in a March 4 report. More than 8.3 million U.S. mortgage holders owed more than their properties were worth and an additional 2.2 million borrowers will be underwater if prices decline another 5 percent, the Santa Ana, California-based seller of mortgage and economic data, said in the report.

Unemployment Rising

The data demonstrates the challenges facing Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and the Obama administration as they seek to spark a housing recovery. The Fed has pushed 30-year fixed home loan rates to a record low by purchasing mortgage- backed securities. The jobless rate jumped to 8.9 percent last month from 8.5 percent in March and employers cut at least 600,000 workers from payrolls for a fifth straight time, according to the median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey ahead of a May 8 Labor Department report.

The U.S. market with the biggest drop in home values in the first quarter was Salinas, California, where the median price fell 37 percent to $301,793 from year earlier, Zillow said.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-05-06 07:19:31

Part of that Zillow piece that does not show here also says that some 31% of houseowners would list their place for sale if prices stage any kind of rebound.

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of UHS…the phantom inventory knows.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-05-06 09:46:53

“Hey, Mr. Walker * you can’t bring that dog to an open house”

“Not dog, wolf.”

*from Ghost who walks - ed

Some stuff never gets old.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-05-06 12:23:12

But of course the “who know what evil….” line is from The Shadow, not The Phantom.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:37:48

Underwater on a home you cannot afford? How about a new low-interest loan at 105%+ of the principle balance? That will fix it.

Wall Street Journal

* REAL ESTATE
* MAY 6, 2009

House-Price Drops Leave More Underwater

By RUTH SIMON and JAMES R. HAGERTY

The downturn in home prices has left about 20% of U.S. homeowners owing more on a mortgage than their homes are worth, according to one new study, signaling additional challenges to the Obama administration’s efforts to stabilize the housing market.

The increase in the number of such “underwater” borrowers comes amid signs that falling prices are making homes more affordable for first-time buyers and others who have been shut out of the housing market. But falling prices also make it more difficult for homeowners who get into financial trouble to refinance or sell their homes, and for others to take advantage of lower interest rates.

For instance, fewer will qualify to take advantage of a key component of the Obama administration’s plan to stabilize the housing market. Under the plan, announced in February, as many as five million homeowners whose loans are owned or guaranteed by government-controlled mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac can refinance their mortgages, but only if the mortgage loan is a maximum of 105% of the home’s value.

Government officials are considering an increase in that limit. “It’s a question that we’re looking at,” said James Lockhart, director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which regulates Fannie and Freddie.

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 12:18:22

Why are people so stupid? It’s like they keep pushing bits of themselves against a running chainsaw and say “Ow! That hurts! Maybe if I do it again, the bleeding will stop!”

Except instead of pushing themselves, they’re pushing the taxpayers against the chainsaw.

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-05-06 09:15:01

ARGH!!

Print more money FASTER!!

More debt will fix this… right?

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-05-06 11:01:39

Only if some of this money makes it to J6P, in the form of increased takehome pay.

Between global wage arbitrage and Wall Street hoarding it all to help their balance sheets, it ain’t happening anytime soon.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:20:47

Zillow is a joke. It says my house is worth $180K using compls from last summer/fall. It ignores the large number of foreclosure and short-sales… like the house behind me that went for $130K or the one down the street for $118K, or the one on the next street over that went for $150K.

Zillow is a total waste. Ignore anything they say.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-05-06 09:37:56

Darrell_in_PHX
You’re right. Zillow showed our former floorplan with a zestimate of $825K, yet the used home sales site showed the same house listed at $700K . This house in So Ca, has been on the market for a minimum of a year.
Our former neighborhood was above $1M, with our house (model) peaking at $1.2M. Nice large homes (built in fridge), but worth $450K-$550K, tops.

Comment by Rental Watch
2009-05-06 17:22:20

Looked at a home on Redfin that was recently sold for $1.45MM. Zillow’s current zestimate is $2.0MM. I guess I’ll just take all Zillow numbers and knock 40% off them (to take into account the additional 15% that they have fallen since that last sale).

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-05-06 12:30:05

Well their estimates of value are worth what you paid for them, which is more than can be said for many bubble appraisers….. And of course their penchant for overestimation of value means that EVEN MORE people are underwater. IMHO the question is how far underwater are people. If you’re only a few percent underwater, most owner occupiers will try to continue paying. But when people start getting 50-100k underwater, defaults start paying better and better. Just how much is a good FICO worth to most people? 20k? 100k? Add to this the number of people who simply can’t afford to pay the mortgage terms that they’ve agreed to, and the ugly has hardly started.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-05-06 13:12:35

Jim A.
Great food for thought.When we sold our garage mahal in a swank subdivision (hated it), we had no idea how expensive our renting plan would turn out. (Thank you Greenspin.) Even with minimal CPI increases, over time, our cost have gone up enough to think about a re-entry.(one check). Our situation is unique and we miss a home.
My FICO is 825, and I’ll have to ponder its worth. My car will need to be replaced in 2-3 years (interest rates - God only knows, but higher). I’ve been holding out for the technologies. I hope all the corp welfare speeds up the R&D. (ha ha ha)

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Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 16:19:49

awaiting wipeout,

Thanks for your candor on what apparently is a touchy subject. Evidently there’s a perception that “renting” in and of itself is no more difficult than falling off a log?

Certainly hasn’t been ‘my’ experience. I can’t believe ( especially w/ all of the W-2 filers ) that having a 100k+ HH income and a 11K Standardized Deduction is “no sweat” for most? It created fairly considerable tax problems for the wife and I.

Oh you can get away with it for a year or two. What’s more remarkable though is that a majority of poster’s opinion of the stock market is that it’s nothing more than a glorified casino and when when you get around to discussing that HOLE in your Sched. A everyone’s pat answer is to increase contributions to your 401k!? Uh… you mean ‘that’ Ponzi? So which one is it? Get’s frustrating.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-05-06 19:14:23

DinOR,
Yeah, taxes considerations are an issue, for sure. A big decline in income has caught up with us, but due to being parsimonious we are flush with $. We didn’t sell at the top, but we had other savings. We paid cash to furnish and do the yard. So, when we sold, we had no debt ( paid off cars too), and a low mortgage.

It’s funny, some of our Stepford Wife neighbors said they took $ out of their house because they had “EXTRA EQUITY”
(these people were issued a drivers license-scary) We were the uncool neighbors, having to wait on instant perfection.

We’re not getting any younger, and we’ve been waiting this out for years.

We’ll buy smart, but mortality comes a knock’n one day. I really need a home again. My victory garden awaits.

 
 
Comment by hd74man
2009-05-06 14:12:53

RE: many bubble appraisers

The wreckage caused by these clowns moves far beyond underwater FB’ers.

Try tallying the financial costs relative to the collection of billions in excess property taxes as the result of inflated values ’caused by those who worked the quickest and the cheapest.

In certain states local assessors are allowed a 10% valuation leeway on assessments on either side of their fair market
determinations.

Bet you can’t guess which side to which most of the properties fall. ‘taint the low side.

And there’s a Murphy’s Law to the property taxation game.

What goes up quick (tax value) comes down slow like a glacier-especially when scores of communities are dead azz broke.

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Comment by Julius
2009-05-06 13:17:36

Oh, but I’m so glad the recession’s over! After all, times are ripe for recovery when a fourth of the nation’s homeowners are underwater.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-05-06 13:36:12

Yeah, we do live in bubblelicious So Ca, and I do hear what you are saying, Julius.

When Ben said another jobless recovery was a’comin, I wasn’t surprised, just more propaganda from the Edward Bernays school of bs.

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 06:19:49

CNBC’s On The Money viewed in the evening makes for great vindication. Carmen WhatsHerName takes calls from a wide selection of FB’ers, spendthrifts and other hollowed out economy believers who are neck deep in their self-created financial disasters.

But get this…. one deluded house debtor called last night and asked if she should pre-pay mortgage payments. Good question right? Most of us here would have a common answer…. pre-pay frequently and fast. Nope… not the born and bred dopes on On The Money. Their answer was emphatically “DON’T DO IT!”. They told the house debtor to put it in the bank or buy stocks. FPSS made the case for prepay succinctly(and I’m paraphrasing); “Where else can you get a gauranteed, fixed rate of return exceeding 5% with no risk? Prepay your mortgage”.

Comment by samk
2009-05-06 06:55:45

Buy stocks! Nice.

Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 07:38:01

“Buy stocks! Nice.

B..b..but Mom, I would have BETTER ODDS beating behind the PASS-NO PASS line in Vegas…DEAD DRUNK !

;)

Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 07:41:32

sorry , thaat’s “betting”..am not DEAD DRUNK..but I do NEED… more coffee.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 08:26:38

My exact quote on the subject was a lot more acidic. It’s from Fred Schwed Jr.’s Where are the Customer’s Yachts?:

It [= margin trading] parallels the American principle that the first thing a man should do with his home even before moving in, is to put it in hock. The idea that he only has to pay six percent or so on the mortgage and if he can’t wangle something better than a measly six percent out of a round lot of money, he ought not to be in business.

 
 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 08:36:03

FPSS made the case for prepay succinctly(and I’m paraphrasing); “Where else can you get a gauranteed, fixed rate of return exceeding 5% with no risk? Prepay your mortgage”.

____

Yes, but FPSS did not say where I can get leverage of 50-1 or 20-1 on a non-recourse loan.

Including closing costs, there are properties that can be bought today higher than 50-1. If inflation goes haywire. My 1 makes 100s and beats inflation.

Of course, ideally, leverage would be infinite, as in 104% financing (ala 2003-2007)
Alas, I did not do this because at that time I still believed in doing the right thing.
Today, if a bank offers me close to 100% financing and closing costs also financed, I’ll get the free option on the house and stick my money in TIPS and commodities.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-05-06 09:23:30

And as long as the economy and social system encourages NOT “doing the right thing” there will be NO real recovery, IMHO.

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 10:00:10

I sincerely beg to differ on this.

I recently had my dad confess to me that I was right all along, and that my grandfather, back in the day in the late-1970’s, didn’t “sell” his house but lost it because he was an over-leveraged contractor.

The point isn’t that I’m, oh so smart, but that the perils of being over-leveraged stand independent of time and place.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 11:45:18

So, Fasty, did you immediately do your skipping, snarky-laughing, bum-wiggling, hopping in a circle: ‘I Told You So’ dance? Or did you forbear, just this once, out of respect for your pops?

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 11:53:16

I totally did the “I told you so - in your face, poppy!” but I did it mostly respectfully while fully pouring on the scorn.

I am not known for my restraint. Call it the best of both worlds. :-D

 
 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 08:57:02

“Where else can you get a gauranteed, fixed rate of return exceeding 5% with no risk? Prepay your mortgage”.

____

Yes, but FPSS did not say where I can get leverage of 50-1 or 20-1 on a non-recourse loan.

Including closing costs, there are properties that can be bought today higher than 50-1. If inflation goes haywire. My 1 makes 100s and beats inflation.

Of course, ideally, leverage would be infinite, as in 104% financing (ala 2003-2007)
Alas, I did not do this because at that time I still believed in doing the right thing.
Today, if a bank offers me close to 100% financing and closing costs also financed, I’ll get the free option on the house and stick my money in TIPS and commodities.

Games rigged, learn to enjoy it.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 09:43:46

It’s odd you say this.

The last time I heard that sentiment was from an elderly relative (almost twice my age) and I claimed this was “stupid beyond words”. Fast forward to today, and he’s in bankruptcy and I’m still living on the Upper West Side.

I respectfully and sincerely beg to differ. Prudence has a logic of its own independent of the circumstances.

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Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 16:03:59

I don’t see where to disagree with you FPSS.
I can’t even quibble.
:-)

I’ve thought you and many others here knowledgeable and, at times, wise.

What I am saying does not in any way I can see contradict what you have said.

A 50-1+ leverage with no recourse from the banks; or better yet, 104% financing (infinite leverage) is a free option, and that’s a whole different world.

(It’s a late reply, but I thought it respectful to reply)

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 10:46:31

Muir,

Leaving leverage to the side for a moment, my issue isn’t so much that the game is “rigged” but rather that it’s changed so much.

My FULL intent was to sit on the sidelines, let h-o-u-s-i-n-g crash, and swoop in to buy the most ridiculous pool home in LV money could buy! Oh… then reality set in.

Why should any of us even care about owning a home, let alone paying one off? Either way, none of us will live long enough to see any meaningful appreciation that even off-sets our maint. expenses, so what’s the point?

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Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 12:46:06

So you’re coming around to the entirely rational POV that a house is a “consumption item”?

LOL

That having been said I still feel there will be time to buy - depending on the part of the country between 2012 and 2014.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 13:00:32

FPSS,

:)

Right, and it’s a less than gracious conclusion to come to ‘without’ looking/sounding like a flaky @$$ realtwhore who in the throes of the downturn suddenly says:

“I’ve decided to focus on what’s really important in life. During the boom I hardly had time for my kids or even having a life! This gives me the time to…”

Even in the best of times I never calculated “vapor equity” into calculating my net worth. And I’ve no doubt there ‘won’t’ be some good values to be had between 2012 and 2014? But-at-what-cost.

Was -any- of this really… worth it? Even if we could have adjoining residences in the most posh neighborhood and paid cash, now what? Was this all about having a comfy seat from which to watch The Strange -Financial- Island of Dr. Moreau sink beneath the waves?

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-05-06 13:21:28

Owning (as in paid off) a sensibly priced home and having your monthly expenses held down, will give some of us more breathing room, as we are living off less dough.

My family pays off their homes, and lives quite comfortably in their senior years. I was raised to think about the future. We call it the Asian/Jewish/Persian mindset. (just for stereotypical fun)

 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 16:07:19

DinOR

“Leaving leverage to the side for a moment, my issue isn’t so much that the game is “rigged” but rather that it’s changed so much.

My FULL intent was to sit on the sidelines, let h-o-u-s-i-n-g crash, and swoop in to buy the most ridiculous pool home in LV money could buy! Oh… then reality set in.”

+1

Yes, who would have thought Obama would turn out to be Super-Capitalist-bail-out-Mr. Banker?

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:08:15

I agree with FPSS, there will be a time to buy, and it could be as soon as 2012. Inflation will hit sometime, maybe fairly hard. Also, I need some protection from income taxes. I will not seek it by knowingly buying assets whose nominal value is actually declining, but that decline will come to an end some time.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 16:26:08

az_lender,

Well said, at some point we’ll revert back to sensible ownership and -much- of the “benefit” WILL be in the form of tax relief.

After ‘that’ being able to “paint the walls any color you like” and not a whole lot else? I don’t see a lot of upside here and having a fully paid off home isn’t giving me “wood” like it once did. They’ll need to give me a “title” to go along with it, like “King of the Neighborhood” or something. A throne perhaps.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-05-06 07:25:16

Their answer was emphatically “DON’T DO IT!”. They told the house debtor to put it in the bank or buy stocks.

What was the rationale for this conclusion?

Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:12:37

I’ve noticed that kind of BS on that show before. At some point, someone asked about buying a house for CASH. They said, No No! — and their reasoning was, if house prices are going down, you don’t want to put a lot of money into buying your house. Right, this makes no sense at all — they’re advising you that it’s better to be a forked borrower than an actual owner. That particular show (”On the Money”) is just kr@P. I like some CNBC stuff though. I like Kudlow even if he’s kind of a permabull. Kramer’s a joke, of course.

Comment by CA renter
2009-05-07 00:33:00

It’s because you get the free call option, and they are correct, IMHO.

Look at so many of us losers here who rented and waited this thing out…and for what? We’ve paid $124,800 in rent over the last five years, and home prices are down by about that much in our area.

If we would have used a 100% LTV, neg-am loan, we would have been able to live much more cheaply **as buyers** and been able to squat for a year or more (?) as we wait out the foreclosure process. In the meantime, we could claim we were “victims” of the economy/bank/big-bad-guys on Wall Street, and people would feel sorry for us and offer us special financing and free money with which we could buy a new house after a year or so of renting. I believe many of the new buyer programs only require a 12 month period without foreclosure/BK.

If the govt had stayed out of it, we would be very near the bottom, and could be working our way out of the mess. Now, we will be stuck (all of us — home debtors and renters, alike) because the govt/Fed just can’t keep their paws out of the market.

Yes, I’m pissed.

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Comment by cougar91
2009-05-06 07:30:42

That’s Carmen Wong Ulrich. I assume Wong is her maiden name and her husband’s name is Ulrich. But if you look at her, she doesn’t appear Asian-like at all, so what’s up with that name? I have been wondering about her name ever since I saw her on CNBC last year.

Comment by Al
2009-05-06 08:37:16

You forgot the ‘r’.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 08:45:24

O.K, so I’ve ‘kind’ of wondered that myself? Sort of like the Seinfeld episode where Elaine is unsure about her latest fling’s nationality ( and it turns out ‘he’ has reservations too!? )

“I mean, what’s with all the African art anyway!”

No seriously, here’s what’s driving the “Don’t Pre-Pay” battle cry from the talking heads: Banks are cutting off people’s HELOC’s at the knees! If they advocate dumping cash into their homes and said caller gets pink-slipped, they’re in a world of hurt from a liability stand point.

But.. bu.. Carmen said it was alright to… and then I… and then the bank…

Advice, such as it is these days, is only applicable for that week. We’re literally living day-to-day and that’s being reflected in the MSM.

 
 
Comment by Dave of the North
2009-05-06 07:33:56

I noted yesterday that my mortgage will be paid off next week. I did this early by doing a couple of lump sum prepayments and gradually hiking my payments (as I paid off other debt) until they were twice the original payment. Even in my mortgage (which was a friendly Canadian style ARM - at the last my rate was 2 %) it made more sense to quickly pay it off than to put money in the bank (at 0.25 percent interest? puh-leeze!) or in the stock market.

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 08:47:49

“friendly Canadian style ARM”

Dave, for those of us south of the border, please feel free to elaborate. You do realize that more than any other western nation, the US has the most abusive realtionship between lenders and borrowers, right?

Comment by Dave of the North
2009-05-06 16:37:09

My adjustable rate mortgage was based on the bank prime rate. It was always in the range of 1 or 2 % higher than the Bank of Canada official prime rate. It wasn’t like the ARMs in the US which seemed to reset at very high rates.

Also I could do up to 15% lump sum repayment every year (I didn’t take as much advantage of that as I could have) and I could raise my payments to twice the original level, which I did do.

It still took 21 years to get rid of the mortgage. Also back in 2000 we tacked on another $ 20,000 or so to do renovations.

We are debt free now, but at one time we were pretty badly in debt (maxed out credit cards, line of credit, car loans, plus the mortgage…). Long haul to get out of that…

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Comment by CA renter
2009-05-07 00:35:39

Great job getting out of all that debt, Dave!

Congratulations on your debt-free lifestyle!!!

 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 08:52:18

Congradulations Dave!!

One way to explain it is, if you had a payed for house would you borrow money on the house to invest with. Anyone with half a brain would answer no.

 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 08:46:19

Sorry, I think for many many people the advice given is correct at this rare time in history.

Consider an FB who is underwater on his house. The sensible financial move may be to walk away—eventually. In that case, prepaying the mortgage is just pissing money away, and reduces the banks eventual loss.

For those not yet underwater, they may still end up there in a year or two. Again, prepaying just puts YOUR money at risk, and substitutes it for money that the bank currently has at risk.

For those with very low LTV, prepaying still makes sense. Say if you owe less than 50%, it will most likely not make sense to walk away during this downturn.

Yes, it hurts me to say this, because my whole life I’ve given the same advice as FPSS on this subject. :-)

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 09:47:46

Read what I wrote above (it’ll appear eventually.)

My various opinions aside, I’m strongly in favor of prudence. It’s the difference between winning a sprint and winning the marathon.

There’s an extraordinarily simple reason towards prepayment - why pay interest when you can take that same money and invest it?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, and don’t tell me about “leverage” because I get it. I’ve both been more levered and less levered than most here and I’m in favor of the latter.

Comment by james
2009-05-06 16:42:13

Hello FPSS,

Just a note on this little thread. If we do have hyperinflation then the last thing I want to do is be tied to a piece of property in NYC.

At that point you are in the apocalyptic secenarios where you want to be living in some small defensible hamlet with decent natural resources. Say oil, water, iron and coal and maybe some ariable land.

The great part is… you own property. The bad part is you probably won’t be able to pay the property taxes. The other bad part, were back to using the precious and bartering.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 09:47:53

Prime,

And don’t think it doesn’t hurt ‘me’ to say it either? Back in the mid 90’s Ric Edelman wrote a great book called “The NEW Rules For Money” and… kind of discussed the very scenario so many people are facing today.

In his example he talked about (2) people that worked at a Caterpillar plant in IL. The one that played it safe and dumped everything into PP his mortgage found out real quick that it’s not a ‘home’ equity loan ( it’s a JOB equity loan! )

Without a job to repay the amount you’ll need to borrow to stay afloat, what bank is going to lend to you? Who exactly will pay back the loan, your house? I used to absolutely obsess over PP my loan. Now I don’t give a f@ck.

Comment by MountainViewJason
2009-05-06 12:59:11

By this logic, if you own a house wouldn’t it potentially make sense to take out a loan as large as possible in a sinking market?

Then, if the market keeps sinking and your house ends up significantly underwater…You default and keep the undepreciated value of your house (from the loan). Go buy a new house at the new prices and pocket the difference. I suspect this probably violates some law somewhere, but it would make economic sense.

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Comment by MountainViewJason
2009-05-06 13:00:44

And, in case anyone mistakes me, it violates good ethics too. :)

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-05-07 00:38:34

I think this is exactly what people are being encouraged to do.

Note that the govt is **rewarding** deadbeats, while admonishing those of us who are waiting for sane prices of being reckless fencesitters who are hurting the economy and need to be pushed off the fence.

 
 
 
 
Comment by patient renter
2009-05-06 10:39:57

Good god, these shills have no shame whatsoever.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 10:45:40

As opposed to when?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 10:53:18

patient renter,

Well, you -will- recall on TheStreet.com Cramer was talking about just dumping your house and keeping your credit cards current. But that’s his credibility on the line, not mine.

Nor am I touting Edelman’s findings. He later jumped ship and advocated eyeball level leverage. In truth what he shared was more in line w/ the defensive nature of most posters here.

Hang on to your tax refunds, little wills and bonuses and when things go haywire ( and they will ) you’ll have liquidity while your ‘prudent’ co-worker has no options but to sell and move. It’s worth a quick perusal at least.

 
 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-05-06 06:22:17

I had posted about this small firm called Economic Cycle Research Institute who has called recessions and end of recessions consistently. Here is the latest write up on them:

As Unemployment Growth Slows, a Recovery Could Stir
By DAVID LEONHARDT, NYTimes
Published: May 5, 2009

Ben Bernanke sounded more optimistic on Tuesday than he has in a long time, and President Obama has talked about glimmers of hope. The stock market has risen 34 percent from its 2009 nadir.

On Friday morning, we will get the clearest sign yet of whether these glimmers are real. That’s when the Labor Department will release its monthly jobs report, the single most important economic indicator out there. As bad as the job market is, it no longer seems to be getting worse at an accelerating pace. In both February and March, the economy lost fewer than 670,000 jobs; in January, it had lost 741,000.

In past recessions, a slowdown in the rate of job loss has been a telling sign. A few months after that, the economy typically began growing again. The vicious cycle turned virtuous.

……….

Wall Street has a notoriously bad forecasting record. It almost always predicts that the economy will grow by something like 3 percent a year, which happens to be correct most of the time. But when a forecast would most be useful — when the economy is turning — Wall Street doesn’t offer much guidance. Amazingly enough, Wall Street’s consensus forecast has failed to predict a single recession in the last 30 years.

A small firm in New York called the Economic Cycle Research Institute has a much better record. It was founded by Geoffrey Moore, an economist who helped invent the idea of leading indicators. He used historical patterns to predict the economy’s direction, and unlike most Wall Street forecasters, he wasn’t afraid to stand apart from the crowd. In 2006, while most forecasters were still talking about 3 percent growth, Mr. Moore’s protégés were issuing warnings (though they were still too optimistic).

Today, they think the economy is on the verge of turning. “We’re in the worst recession since World War II,” says Lakshman Achuthan, the managing director of the Economic Cycle Research Institute. “However, the days of this recession are limited.”

Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 06:26:38

Ok… so the rate of decline is slowing.

That’s all. The High Finance Crime Syndicate would have you believe a bottom and rebound are one and the same.

 
Comment by cougar91
2009-05-06 06:30:59

Here is someone who is predicting the “W” for 2009-2010:

The year of the ‘W’
Commentary: Waiting is hardest part of market rollercoaster of 2009

By Todd Harrison
Last update: 12:01 a.m. EDT May 6, 2009

NEW YORK — A smart man once said that when trading financial assets, you can game the direction or nail the timing — but you’ll rarely do both.

We asked last week whether investors would again be wise to sell in May and go away. Central to that discussion was the observation that should the market mount S&P 875 — the level at the time — we must respect the potential for further gains in the near term to suck in those standing on the sidelines.

That script has indeed played out, all the more impressive given the steady stream of negative news. From the stress-test postponement to the swine-flu endemic to the Chrysler bankruptcy, there were plenty of excuses to take profits following the spirited sprint off the March lows. It proved yet again that the reaction to news is more important than the news itself.

I offered in a recent interview that when the dust settled at the end of the year, 2009 could look like a “W.” We’re currently dancing around the middle spike — a widow’s peak, if you will. The natural question is therefore: where are we on the rollercoaster?

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 06:40:32

W = wasscally wabbit ;-)
V = Vroooooooooomm!
U = U took a long time getting up!

wwwwvwl_____lwvvwvvwvvwvvwvl_____lwwwwvvvvvl_____l

Possibilities are wonderful things. ;-)

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 07:18:10

I thought we got rid of “W” last year.

 
Comment by polly
2009-05-06 07:52:27

” A smart man once said that when trading financial assets, you can game the direction or nail the timing — but you’ll rarely do both.”

Sigh. More physics envy. I wish economists would get over that already.

 
Comment by phillygal
2009-05-06 07:58:50

The natural question is therefore: where are we on the rollercoaster?
Smart money bails

VIX looks like it’s still not time to get comfortable.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 08:22:04

The natural question is therefore: where are we on the rollercoaster?

The loop-de-loop where we’re all upside down and strapped in?

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 08:51:02

And this is supposed to be ‘encouraging’ news? Uh… at this point an “L” shaped recovery is looking better all the time?

W, yeah, I’ll keep that in mind.

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Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 06:25:11

Hmmmm….

“Investors should brave the risk of “economic chaos” and buy stocks and real estate, said Yale University professor Robert Shiller, whose 2000 book “Irrational Exuberance” predicted the market’s collapse.”

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 08:45:54

Well actually that’s valid advice…assuming you have a few million in the bank. Invest a mil in some land in a cheap part of Europe or SudAmerica, invest a mil in something safe like utility stocks. Keep the last mil to live on in case it goes to pot again.

Now, Robert, what about the other 98.8% of Americans?

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 08:54:32

“Now, Robert, what about the other 98.8% of Americans?”

__

104% financing?
25K government credit towards building your new house?
50K tax credit for first time buyers?
….

 
 
 
Comment by skroodle
2009-05-06 06:27:42

Zillow says 20% underwater already!

More than one in five homeowners underwater: Zillow
Wed May 6, 2:58 am ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) – Home values in the United States extended their fall in the first quarter, with more than one in five homeowners now owing more on their mortgages than their homes are worth, real estate website Zillow.com said on Wednesday.

U.S. home values posted a year-over-year decline of 14.2 percent to a Zillow Home Value Index of $182,378, resulting in a total 21.8 percent drop since the market peaked in 2006, according to Zillow’s first-quarter Real Estate Market Reports, which encompass 161 metropolitan areas and cover the value changes in all homes, not just homes that have recently sold.

U.S. homes lost $704 billion in value during the first quarter and have depreciated $3.8 trillion in the past 12 months, according to analysis of the reports.

Declining home values left 21.9 percent of all American homeowners with negative equity by the end of the first quarter, Zillow said.

By comparison, 17.6 percent of all homeowners owed more on their mortgage than their property was worth in the fourth quarter of 2008, and 14.3 percent were underwater in the third quarter of last year, the reports showed.

Nine consecutive quarters of declines have left eight regions — including the Modesto, California, Stockton, California, and Fort Myers, Florida regions — with median value declines of more than 50 percent since those markets peaked.

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 06:58:23

I used to like Zillow. It was so easy to just click around to a house and see the info, whether for sale or not. Now they insist on being a semi-real-estate site, clogging up the maps with little Make-Me-Move and For Sale symbols which crashes my browser. I don’t know how to turn that off. And then they whored out the Z’estimate…

Comment by Muggy
2009-05-06 08:12:41

Lol, Oxide, I think a lot of people used to like zillow, too, but are having issues different than yours :smile:

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-05-06 08:32:03

And then they whored out the Z’estimate…

LOL! Check out this recent sale in the neighboorhood (it was on the market for 3 years):

4227 Golf Vista Dr, 80537

It sold for 80K less than its Zestimate and about 30K less than its 2003 sale price.

Comment by Goedeck
2009-05-06 12:21:04

A couple blocks over, they could call the street Crop Vista Dr.

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Comment by rellimgerg
2009-05-06 09:29:10

You can disable it by un-checking the “Show Make Me Move” box under the “For Sale” section in the panel on the left side of the screen.

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 12:35:01

Thanks! I think I tried that it didn’t work. I’ll try again.

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Comment by James
2009-05-06 06:29:43

I’m trying to figure out what the grand plan is.

Chrysler shares we got in the bailout are being converted to common shares before the big wipe out.

GM is planning to convert the preferred shares to common shares before doing a 100 to 1 reverse split. Basically shares are worthless.

So, another set of major defaults. All that bailout money is going to our “owners” as Carlin would say; the big bond holders.

BOA, WF and such want to pay back the tarp money but need another 50 billion in capital. Citi is probably worse. Where did that first round of dollars end up? Maybe in the bond holders hands?

Not sure how the plan is supposed to work here. Everything that gets fed to these bankrupt companies just gets burned away under the mountain of debt. Also the banks need reserves, after government allowed them to go without, so we will still have a slowing velocity of money if we give them money. That is if the bondholders and insiders don’t just steal all of it.

The plan was for the tarp and bailout funds to keep productivity up and workers from getting laid off. Did that actually happen?

The plan was for banks to use the tarp money to shore up their balance sheets? Did that happen?

This is your new president and congress at work here. Hope you are all impressed so far. We are shifting from incompetence from guys that wanted to steal all of your money to incompetence from guys that have no clue what to do.

Don’t see this doesn’t end in some kind of default.

Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 06:42:17

“Hope you are all impressed so far.”

I am.

Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 07:18:23

Impressed by the largest deficit ever and the takeover of the auto industry? Put down the kool-aid.

Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 08:08:35

Mr. Bush outspent every other president combined, doulbing the debt from 5trillion(built up over 200 years) to 10 trillion under his insane policies.

Impressive isn’t it?

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Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 09:38:33

exeter, you do realize who appropriates money in our constitutional republic, right? (note: it’s not the president)

 
Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 11:11:29

Bush’s last deficit: 450B

Barry’s 1st deficit 1+ trillion

Even a publik skool grad can figure out which is higher.

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-05-06 11:13:24

Not as impressive as BHO doubling that deficit in just 90 days under even more insane policies.

 
Comment by packman
2009-05-06 12:13:30

Now now cobalt - those are just *projected* deficits.

(Based on unemployment peaking at 9.4%)

 
Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 14:33:12

No numbers, just rhetoric.

Imagine that.

 
Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 15:13:28

$450b and $1t aren’t numbers?

OK I see why you think Sir Barry of Honolulu is doing a good job.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-05-06 16:34:40

450B +750B in BARF=1.2T.

Nice math you got there.

 
 
Comment by Jon
2009-05-06 09:30:36

Remember this years budget was set by last year’s politicians & their would be no auto industry without the government takeover (acceptin’ our Asian masters of course, no offense if you are reading this sirs).

I know I’m supposed to toe the thrifty line here, but I think the moves so far have kept us out of a real life economic depression and will continue to do so. I like being able to feed my kids.

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Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 07:44:00

My expectations have been exceeded.

Comment by cobaltblue
2009-05-06 09:19:54

“My expectations have been exceeded.”

Mine too. I expected a whole bunch of corrupt nonsense, misguided policies and wasteful spending, but lo and behold, now we have have the complete and utter destruction of the economy for generations to come, as well as the irreversible shredding of the Constitution. All in the name of good intentions and “It’s not Bush”.

Like exeter said a while back, when, as, and if it happens on B.O.’s watch, he owns it.

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Comment by Julius
2009-05-06 15:49:11

“Mine too. I expected a whole bunch of corrupt nonsense, misguided policies and wasteful spending, but lo and behold, now we have have the complete and utter destruction of the economy for generations to come, as well as the irreversible shredding of the Constitution. All in the name of good intentions and “It’s not Bush”.”

Amen.

I am so glad somebody else sees this. I don’t care what the “recovery” is that all of this spending has driven or what else “good” comes out of this “recovery” poppycock that Obama is trying to push here. The end has to justify the means, and we’ve now saddled future generations with so much debt that it almost doesn’t matter what good comes of this “recovery” effort.

 
Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 16:19:37

Double Amen.

 
Comment by robin
2009-05-06 19:17:35

Does Julius age himself with “poppycock”? = :) Methinks!

 
 
 
Comment by Austin Scott
2009-05-07 10:57:54

Setting a new record for mindless predictability.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-05-06 07:48:44

shifting from incompetence from guys that wanted to steal all of your money ??

Wanted to ?? They did !!

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-05-06 09:29:28

The key is that the plan was to take all the money and run away with it as loot while leaving everyone buried under mountains of debt that can never be repaid, barring hyperinflation, of course.

Since that was the real plan, it is going smashingly well.

Comment by Elanor
2009-05-06 10:36:00

And there’s nothing incompetent about exceeding your goal. In fact, I’d argue that the thieves succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:35:16

Listen to what Bernanke and Geithner keep teeling congress.

There is no FDIC type laws that let then take over and unwind, a large, multi-segment financial institution.

They can step in and take over a bank, sell off its assets, make depositors hole to a certain level, unwind its trades, etc. It allows a bad apple to go away withut every employee losing their job, every bond holder taking a mass loss, etc.

They can’t do that with something like Merril or Citigroup that have insurance, brokerages, investment banks, SIVs, derivitives, etc. If the government steps in, it isn’t bankrupt, its bonds aren’t in default, and there is no way to unwind credit default swaps on its debt. It can’t break insurance contracts. It can’t roll off the brokerage accounts, etc.

I think the current money is just to make sure there is not another Lehman, until AFTER they get some laws that give the ability to smothly unwind.

They know there are $ trillions in bad debts and $700 billion is not enough to cover them all. They know that additional major financial institutions need to be unwould and that will trigger lots of losses. What they don’t want is the messy, bankruptcy, total lock up, uncontrolled unwind.

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:22:34

James, you keep saying the bondholders are the beneficiaries. In the case of Chrysler, the bondholders got stiffed in favor of the Union. That’s the Obama way, I believe.

Yes, of course bailout money ends up in Bondholders’ hands — because the company is bankrupt if it can’t pay the bondholders. If you are jealous of the bondholders, why don’t you join them instead of bitching. Right now you can buy Morgan Stanley bonds yielding about 10% to maturity. Citi yields much more, but that’s because nobody trusts that the bailouts will ever really be enough. Really, anyone with $1000 can be a bondholder.

Comment by james
2009-05-06 17:08:48

Not jealous about bondholders in this but pointing out that we are going to be paying on debts but the social benifits we were attempting to achieve, keeping productivity up and employment up, are not happening.

They are slashing payrolls and moth balling production. Not using the money to keep production going.

Also the mass transfer of debt from some substantial number of private parties to “the government” doesn’t make that debt any more affordable in the long run.

Things like this just transfer wealth to the richest people. The debt grows exponentially and since we are behind the curve we fall even further behind.

While some rich people (and I’m not poor either) might think this is good; a really narrow wealth distribution will be a destabalizing influence on everyone. Also wealth generation will drop off the charts too. Hopefully everyone gets the picture that this isn’t a productive activity.

Comment by az_lender
2009-05-07 03:11:08

An awful lot of “bondholders” are pension funds and like that.

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Comment by skroodle
2009-05-06 06:34:37

Chrysler HDQ was built to be able to be converted into a shopping mall. Did those guys have a crystal ball back in 1990 or what?

The Chrysler headquarters building is a spectacular sight from I-75 in Michigan. But the Auburn Hills edifice and its sprawling campus sit in the middle of one of the most economically depressed areas in the country. When the building was erected in the early 1990s, it was designed so it could be repurposed into a shopping mall without too much modification if the perennially troubled Chrysler should go out of business. But there is no interest in another shopping mall in a commercial corridor where unemployment and foreclosure rates are both above 20%, and one of the best-performing malls in the state, The Somerset Collection, sits 15 minutes away in Troy, Mich.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/apr2009/db20090423_428911.htm

Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 07:28:48

Other possible uses of the building….

- Poultry farm
- Homeless shelter
- Prison (could be useful to MI)

Here’s a photo of the sprawling campus topped off with a high-rise tower.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6213743/corporate/chrysler-gets-its-own-mulally/index.html

Comment by Skip
2009-05-06 07:41:53

- Thunder Dome
- Spatula City
- Wally World

Comment by cereal
2009-05-06 08:18:56

My vote:

Spatula City.

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Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 07:50:59

These Wall Street, Banksters and REIC SCAM artists along with their associated Criminal, Thug and Hoodlum friends are DOMESTIC TERRORISTS !

WHY aren’t they ALL…in JAIL ?

THAT would be… MY American Dream !
:)

 
 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2009-05-06 06:35:22

Wow. speechless.

Comment by az_lender
2009-05-07 03:14:50

Hard to tell what you’re speechless about when your post is not a reply to anything in particular. (??)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 06:39:06

Americans want to be lied to. . . .

“I thought I wanted a new era of transparency and accountability, but honestly, I just can’t handle it,” Ohio resident Nathan Pletcher said. “All I ever hear about now is how my retirement has been pushed back 15 years and how I won’t be able to afford my daughter’s tuition when she grows up.”

“From now on, just tell me the bullshit I want to hear,” Pletcher added. “Tell me my savings are okay.”
Always kernels of truth in tongue-in-cheek reports from The Onion.

Comment by packman
2009-05-06 07:07:28

LOL - They ARE being lied to.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-05-06 07:24:23

The Onion’s falling behind lately. Reality is outrunning them.

Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 07:34:36

The Onion is having problems and is halting their West-coast print editions.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/06/BU4917F6QA.DTL

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Comment by Muggy
2009-05-06 11:44:10

If the Onion had balls, they’d skewer themselves over this, but I think they’re too pretentious for that. They need some coaching from Tracy Morgan.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 08:54:22

Right, what can comedy writers ‘do’ when reality is more of a self-parody than anything ‘they’ could possibly conjure up?

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:39:57

The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction has to be plausible.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 09:51:22

LOL! Right,

“America needs new unfounded bubble to invest in!”

Every American family has the right to the delusion of a secure retirement and healthy economy.

 
Comment by mikey
2009-05-06 12:12:40

“Every American family has the right to the delusion of a secure retirement and healthy economy”

We have that right already…it’s called a Lotto ticket !

:)

 
Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 14:11:45

Lotto? Try 401K.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-05-06 09:32:05

When it is hard to tell the Onion stories from the real ones, you know that we’re doomed!

Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 11:20:08

The Onion stories are sometimes closer to the truth than the “real” ones.

 
 
 
Comment by salinasron
2009-05-06 06:51:12

Re: comments on yesterday thread CC not checked

Don’t sign the back of your credit cards but use a black sharpie and write “check i.d.” so that clerks will check for proper identification.

Comment by Skip
2009-05-06 07:50:12

Please note that your card is not valid without your signature on the back and some retailers will not except it.

Also, Sharpie is not that hard to get off.

Comment by oxide
2009-05-06 08:37:47

Isopropyl alcohol (plain rubbing alcohol) will take Sharpie off with a little scrubbing.
Acetone (nail polish remover) will rinse Sharpie off of anything. But watch out, acetone also destroys some plastics, especially polycarbonate.

 
Comment by Wickedheart
2009-05-06 08:57:43

The signature and strip always wear off my card. The Costco Amex has your picture on the card. I really like it. More CC companies should do that.

Comment by Elanor
2009-05-06 13:50:08

My primary credit card has a 15-year-old photo of me on the front. When we had to shut down our account due to online CC# theft in January, I asked the nice customer service rep to pleasepleaseplease take my picture off the new card. He assured me this would be done. You guessed it, the new card arrived with 15-year-old photo on the front.

Every time I use that card, which approaches daily, a reminder of how much I’ve aged stares back at me. Bah!

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Comment by Bad Chile
2009-05-06 08:39:56

Persistent urban legend.

I’m still trying to figure out why people are so freaked out by credit card theft. $50 liability on wrongful use for most credit cards, and I’ve had three or four stolen, and not once was on the hook for anything. One time they bought two cross-country train trips in Canada. I thought that was pretty cool, I admire their method of travel.

Besides:

1) John Doe goes to Chili’s, pays with credit card.
2) While running CC through machine, “Angel” writes down number, exp. date, and the three-number code.
3) Angel goes home and buys all sorts of cool stuff on the internet.

How did “check I.D.” help you?

Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 11:15:19

Angel, LOL. Nice.

 
 
 
Comment by Kurt
2009-05-06 07:08:50

If anybody in the media says inflection point one more time I think I will throw up. Jump out of an airplane. Eventually you reach terminal velocity. Doesn’t mean you won’t hit the ground.

Comment by polly
2009-05-06 07:57:37

And if you pull the cord on an itsy bitsy little parachute, you’ll even slow down a little (slower job losses), but that doesn’t mean you won’t hit the ground very very very hard.

I like this metaphor. Lets do some more.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 08:56:31

You stole my metaphor! :-)

Comment by polly
2009-05-06 13:40:20

And it was delicious. Thank you.

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:47:12

Just because I’m charging less on my credit card, doesn’t mean I’m not still closing in on my limit….

Especially when I get a letter from BoA saying they just cut my limit in half.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:49:02

-x^3

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-05-06 12:47:34

Turn off the box.

 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-05-06 07:14:06

Rich Americans Default on Luxury Homes Like Subprime Victims
By Bob Ivry and Dan Levy, Bloomberg

Chuck Dayton put down a quarter of the $950,000 purchase price when he bought his house in Newport Beach, California, in 2004. He was making $500,000 a year with his drywall company and he expected home values to keep rising.

Then the mortgage market collapsed, new construction stopped and builders no longer needed his services. Dayton, 43, went into default four months ago because he couldn’t afford payments on the three-bedroom home, located within a block of the Pacific Ocean. He hopes his lender will agree to sell the seven-year-old house for less than he owes to avoid a foreclosure.

“It’s just wait and see right now,” Dayton said.

Borrowers such as Dayton, whose 2004 compensation was almost 10 times the median U.S. household income, are becoming trapped by the same issue facing the poorest subprime homeowners: falling home prices erase equity and make it impossible to sell or refinance without losing money.

The number of U.S. homes valued at more than $729,750, the jumbo-loan limit in the most affluent areas, entering the foreclosure process jumped 127 percent during the first 10 weeks of this year from the same period of 2008, data compiled by RealtyTrac Inc. of Irvine, California, show. The rate rose 72 percent for homes valued at less than $417,000 and 78 percent for all homes, RealtyTrac said.

Comment by JP
2009-05-06 07:29:22

I thought this was the money quote:

“You have to have income of $250,000, a 20 percent down payment and near perfect credit to buy a $1 million home now, so the number of buyers isn’t what it was,” Hanson said. “There just aren’t enough buyers to sop up supply. We’re seeing the collapse of the high-end market.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:40:14

That sounds like something I predicted on here twenty-or-so times a year-or-two back.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-05-06 08:00:50

And I recall that, PB! But you were not the only one making that prediction.

Sort of different subject, but IMO, a $500,000 house is equivalent to a $225,000 high rise urban loft. That is, one would need a $200,000 income for a 30 year loan to handle the payment on the house and both the mortgage payments and the steep monthly HOA fees on the loft!

I have seen posts in some Phoenix blogs about people excited that loft prices are coming down. Those people do not have the income to support the HOAs as well as the mortgage. It’s a trap by the companies pushing lofts. Lofts are for the truly wealthy people, not middle class. Lots of foreclosures on lofts in Phoenix attest to that fact. They’ve been pushed to people who could not afford them in the first place.

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Comment by Neil
2009-05-06 11:35:15

Some predicted it further back than that. ;)

I’ve been predicting a 25% down payment as the norm. I still think we’ll get there. Full doc loans are not the way to re-ignite the bubble.

As others have already noted, one of the next stages is the loss of property tax revenue. Hmmm… this might sting a bit.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

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Comment by Lisa
2009-05-06 16:52:07

“I’ve been predicting a 25% down payment as the norm. I still think we’ll get there. Full doc loans are not the way to re-ignite the bubble.”

Neil, I agree with you 100% that this is the safe way to write a mortgage. But the GSE’s are letting folks buy with 3.5% down. But I think they still have to “qualify” to carry 96.5% financing with certain debt to income ratios.

The gov’t will do everything to re-ignite the bubble, which in the end, will only create the next round of FB’s.

But yes, if down payments went to 20% or 25% with no exceptions, my guess is we’d see an immediate (and big) drop in prices.

 
 
Comment by Lisa
2009-05-06 16:55:37

“You have to have income of $250,000, a 20 percent down payment and near perfect credit to buy a $1 million home now, so the number of buyers isn’t what it was,” Hanson said.

This is why there weren’t very many $1 Million homes before the bubble. When you actually have to QUALIFY for that level of purchase, yes indeed, the pool of real buyers is very small. This has to be the LOL quote of the day.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-05-06 09:34:42

Then we need to destroy as many houses as possible (and create more vacant lots for gangs, etc.) until the remaining houses are so hard to find that people making $40,000 a year will just HAVE to buy a $1 million house?!

Ugh… and I bet this idea makes sense to some people!

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:50:18

What is this income thing they are talking about? I thought people could easily afford upto 10x their income…..

 
Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 11:31:43

It’s not just the type of loan or that so few have enough income to afford the higher end houses at current asking prices. Nearly every loan issued in the 2 to 3 year period around the peak of the bubble has the potential to go bad.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-05-06 12:49:50

Yup. That *is* what it takes these days.

 
 
Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2009-05-06 07:33:31

Interesting. I wonder if he made the 500K after or before taxes? And if that was real, or guestimated income? So many questions, so little answers from the MSM. DId he make 500K consistently, or was it a single year that he made that?
I would think that he “made” 500K for a single year in 2004, and the other years he was not even close. I wonder how much market there is out there for a drywall hanger company, now that there is a surplus of housing?
I think he should just mail in the keys, and beg the rooming house to take him back in.

Comment by Skip
2009-05-06 07:51:44

That 2004 was probably the year he found out he could save money by using imported Chinese drywall.

Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:28:42

good one

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Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 09:01:19

Pinch,

Right, and besides, using illegals to hang 4 X 8 sheets of drywall is so demanding and technical! Why *wouldn’t he receive that kind of “compensation”?

Firstly, Chuck was never a “rich” American. Working construction 1997-2005 was like getting laid in a whorehouse. Likely he’s left a string of stiffed suppliers, employees, lenders ( and as you note Uncle Sam ) but he’s worried about his fricken house? So REIC isn’t it.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:51:58

I’d bet it is $500K gross… not net.

Imagine the jails we’d have to build if the Gov went through Alt-A apps and compared to 1040s, then charged them all with mortgage fraud and/or tax fraud.

 
Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 11:30:56

Why is it so hard to believe that someone could own a drywall company and make $500K annually?? You know there are people out there who legitimately make $500K and more year in and year out. And most of them do it through boring run of the mill methods like running drywall companies or insurance businesses or other mundane day to day businesses that nobody would ever think are all that profitable.

One of my friends from college was (and is) into all things cars. Right after graduating with a useless BA in European History, he started a business selling tires, car stereos and those silly looking over sized rims you see on MTV among other things. 10 years later he sold the business which by then included multiple locations in 2 states. Now he’s in his mid 30s, “retired” and spends most of his days playing golf without a financial care in the world. All from selling Dunlops and Goodyears.

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:18:39

KJ,

Not incredible at all. I’ve always been one of those guys in the trenches my damn self.

The difference is, ( firstly ) we’ve been saying this was a flash in the pan for years… here. Secondly it was all predicated on b-o-r-r-o-w-e-d money. And lots of it!

Clearly unsustainable. I think lastly, ( as scdave notes below ) these guys were a BIG part of the problem. I -have- a lot of friends in the tire business. It’s dirty thankless work. Many have done quite well for themselves.

But they didn’t accomplish that running around building tire stores in the middle of NOwhere speculating with someone else’s money! Then using the “equity” in (1) store to build 20 more, leaving unpaid vendors, lenders and employees.

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Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:31:31

It’s not hard to believe that someone COULD make $500K/yr with a drywall company, but if someone DID make $500K/yr for some number of years in a row, he would not need to take out a mortgage in order to buy a $950K house.

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Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 11:42:06

Of course he made whatever it said on the loan app. I wonder if that number is anything close to the income on his 1040.

If the numbers don’t mesh, the lender or borrower (depending on who put in the phony numbers) should be charged with fraud or the borrower should be billed by the IRS for taxes owed plus penalties and interest if the loan app is correct and the 1040 is not.

Comment by KJ
2009-05-06 16:27:21

Think of what you’re saying. You want a mortgage broker acting as an agent of the IRS in determining taxable income. Maybe we could get car salesmen in on the action too. Whatever you say your income is when applying for a car loan must match IRS records. If not the dealership can arrest you on site.

How about instead we leave the IRS out of the equation instead?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:57:33

It sounds like the underwater problem on $1m+ homes is leading to a severe outbreak of swine affluenza.

Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 11:45:35

“It sounds like the underwater problem on $1m+ homes is leading to a severe outbreak of swine affluenza.”

Could this version please have a higher mortality rate? Better late than never on thinning the gene pool.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-05-06 08:15:28

He was making $500,000 a year with his drywall company ??

In the past I have posted on this…”Part” of the impetus that “goosed” this bubble was the amount of money that was being made by the “trades” in construction everywhere…I recall back in 2004-05 you could not get anyone to return a phone call much less give you a bid…The trades could “pick and choose” what jobs to bid…On top of that, they would “collude” to artificially push the bids higher because there was so much work they could do it…A plumber friend of mine (a very hard worker I might add) 1 guy, 1 truck was knocking down close to $300,000. per year at the time..
Another “steel fab” friend with two employees was making around $700,000…Residential construction cost approached $200. per ft. for simpleton quality…Commercial was way more…

Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 09:34:05

Not only in construction related business by the way. A friend of mine has a limousine company and used to make $250k a year with 3 or 4 limousines. Now he cannot make $50k. It was easy money everywhere and it is over now.

 
 
Comment by cereal
2009-05-06 08:17:41

I can’t get a read on upper end Calif coastal communties as far as being upside down or not. Only because the wishing prices remain high.

I believe that the million dollar mortgage club is excluded from O’s theoritical bailout plan regardless.

Which begs the question that as the top shelf housing market implodes, doesn’t that crush everything beneath it?

 
Comment by Elanor
2009-05-06 13:43:17

A couple years ago, just for kicks on a wintry Sunday afternoon, my hubby and I went to an open house at a new construction McMansion listed at $3.95 million. It had every conceivable fancy appliance and one of those ridiculous ‘potfiller’ faucets behind the stove. I asked the realtard what kind of person bought such a house, i.e. to whom was it being marketed, and who qualified for a mortgage on this palace. She replied that most buyers in that range didn’t take out a mortgage.

I guess it’s really different here. ;)

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:21:28

Elanor,

And don’t you buy into it! That’s just another REIC spin on “Oh, these are people that have… money” ( and if you’re the player I ‘think’ you are, you’d know that ) wink, wink

So! Let’s put in an offer!

 
 
Comment by rms
2009-05-07 01:12:37

“Values have taken longer to decline in more affluent areas, taking some homeowners by surprise, said Philip Tirone, president of Los Angeles-based Mortgage Equity Group Inc.”

The coming Alt-A and Option-ARM mortgage bust will affect the nicer areas where the lawns are cut and cars are parked in a garage.

 
 
Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 07:25:29

Talk about pent up supply.

The Big Picture: “In a separate survey of homeowner sentiment, 31 percent of homeowners said they would be at least “somewhat likely” to put their property up for sale in the next 12 months should they see signs of a recovery.”

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-05-06 07:32:35

Yeah, that’s part of the Zillow story referenced above. Huge!

The tone of the article insinuates that those 31% are all “strong hands” that can wait this out.

The duration, not the depth, of this bust will be the real killer.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:42:49

“The duration, not the depth, of this bust will be the real killer.”

Hence the Fed’s push to limit curtail the duration. The bust will end by year-end 2009 (or bust).

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:45:30

limit curtail (Rule #1 of blogging: never post while your wife is trying to engage you in coversation…)

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Comment by cougar91
2009-05-06 07:53:11

Rule #0: Married guys should not be blogging on the Internet while wife is around the house. She can sneak up on you at ANYTIME.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 08:40:55

You’re cheating with me on a housing bubble blog?!?

:-D

 
Comment by clue
2009-05-06 09:36:56

coversation

covert-sation

 
Comment by bluprint
2009-05-06 09:39:22

You’re cheating with me on a housing bubble blog?!?

Well, at least I won’t bring home any diseases. ;)

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-05-06 11:38:07

She can sneak up on you at ANYTIME

“Are you looking at bubble porn again?”

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2009-05-06 12:47:59

I get almost that reaction sometimes. “Get off that damn housing blog and come do X with me!”

I was gone for quite a few months after my daughter was born, but I finally caught up with sleep enough to be obsessively checking this blog again.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:24:02

Congrats!

I’ll say I’ve learned being a 1st time grandparent is ‘almost’ as exhausting.

“Could you hold the baby?”

Sure, why?

“I have to peeeeee”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 15:18:20

“Well, at least I won’t bring home any diseases.”

And that despite enjoying multiple partners!

 
 
 
Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 07:51:02

Anecdotally I can confer this too. I know 3 colleagues with multiple “investment properties” (one has about 16, the other has 5, the third has 4, as far as I know at least, since they are not so forthcoming about their genius investment strategies anymore) who are currently landlords and are bleeding cash every month, since none can even get close to positive cash-flow. By the way, some of the houses even have been sitting empty. T
They are currently waiting for the market to recover and will dump their properties on the market at the first sigh of stabilization.

IMO however, the pent up demand cannot catch up with the pent up supply by a long shot. Anecdotally again, there are only 2 people besides me in the whole department who rent and are potential buyers.

So in summary, if you look at our department as a micro representation of the US real estate market: there 25 “investment properties” and only 3 buyers. Make a guess where the prices will go, when the specuvators realize that this sucker is not coming back and decide to cut losses and send the keys back to the bank.

Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 07:54:30

confer = confirm
sigh = sign

Need more coffee.

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Comment by Rancher
2009-05-06 08:22:59

Drink Coffee

Doing stupid things faster with more energy.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 09:58:56

Doing stupid things faster with more energy.

I leave empty buckets at the coffee stands here on Steamboat Point and stop every day or so to change out and pick up a bucket heaped high with wondrous rich brown coffee grounds, which I then compost in my garden, mix into the soil when I plant something, or use as a top-dressing.
I’ve probably gotten about 2 tons worth of grounds added up bucket by bucket after these several years, and you know what?
I got the fastest, most energetic, working-all-night worms in Washington!
You oughtta see those little red wrigglers move on by. They’s like blurs, man!
:)

*takes large gulp of coffee *

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-05-06 12:31:39

When I lived outside Madison WI, I used to volunteer a few hours every week or so at a soy products collective (tofu, tempeh, soy milk, etc) in exchange for products. And each time I would switch out buckets and fill the cargo area of my hatchback with 5 gallon buckets of soy bean hulls.

I used the hulls like you do coffee grounds. But my worms were more laid back and mellow - though they did a most honorable job of working my garden soil.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:31:02

You’re such a pessimist…look at all those lower “property value” reappraisals they have to look forward to filing! ;-)

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Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2009-05-06 11:13:59

There are no “for sale” signs in the neighborhood, only “for rent” signs. Craig’s List also indicates there is a huge number of rentals looking for people who can pay outlandish rents to FBs and GFs.

I’m thinking that there will be a tipping point at which time all the property investors rush to the exit. There just aren’t that many people who can afford $2,000 for a one bedroom apt. in an okay area of Los Angeles.

June and July should be interesting once the kids get out of school and families have an opportunity to move.

Oh, noticed the other day that the MLS now includes residential rentals.

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Comment by SDGreg
2009-05-06 11:57:57

There’s still a large excess inventory of housing, something like $19M units nationwide by some estimates. You could occupy much of that housing, but prices would have to go much lower to be in line with enough incomes and savings to allow purchase. If prices were to stabilize at all, there would be a flood of additional inventory, but still not many buyers at asking prices in line with the “stabilized” prices. This still has a long way to go - years.

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Comment by WT Economist
2009-05-06 09:59:44

Agreed. When the downside is finished there will be no upside, because of all those folks that will sell as soon as they can get out whole.

Same thing with stocks IMHO. There are lots of people “underwater” on their 401K who, after having hoped for big gains, will be relieved to dump at break even.

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 11:57:58

WT,

Right, “built-in selling pressure”. And given most newer homes were “built-to-flip models” ( and financed accordingly? ) I don’t see any relief in sight.

Perhaps there IS something to that “W-shaped” recovery?

Again, and I’m tickled endlessly for those folks every where w/ paid off homes, but for borrowers under the 10 yr. mark in their 30 yr. FRM, I hardly see any particular advantage.

If you’re in your 40’s, and you just signed a 30 yr. note, and you hump to get it paid off in 20, you’re better off financially, but it’s not anything to break the champagne out over, is it?

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 13:31:53

So, is it bad that my 60 y/o in-laws still owe $325K on a house worth, AT MOST, $400K?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:33:55

Darrell,

Certainly not! My point is that, even at 50, I’m getting uncomfortable w/ nearly -any- level of debt. No matter ‘how’ lucrative it might turn out?

I’ve been a homeowner most of my life so I’m not against homeownership at all. Call it a mid-life crisis if it helps but I’m at a point where “building equity” in a home just isn’t a priority for me any more. I don’t trust anyone in the REIC and given their track record, why would any of us?

I don’t want any more “surprises” bubbles or anything if I can help it and steering clear of RE-types -altogether- looks like a good start?

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 13:12:08

Important question they did not answer: How does the number of people who might want to buy a home in the next 12 months compare to the number of homeowners represented in their 31 percent? I am guessing would-be sellers will outnumber wannabe buyers for the foreseeable future…

Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 14:23:00

Everyone who wanted to buy already bought (excluding the conspiracy theorists at HHB, but how many are we really). After all, the only requirement was to be able to fog a mirror. The housing market borrowed BIG time from future demand and now there is substantial lack of buyers not only because of price mismatch, but also because of huge overbuilding - double trouble.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 15:16:51

Sounds like the Fed and/or its agents will have to come in as residential real estate buyers of last resort, in order to prop up prices and provide convincing quasi-evidence that a recovery is on the way. How could they possibly count on private household demand to get the job done, as national unemployment threatens to breech ten percent over the next few months?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:47:33

latest news
[BAC] Goldman Sachs raises US bank sector to attractive

MARKETWATCH FIRST TAKE
Lewis can’t survive after $35 billion capital raise
Commentary: Government pressure feels like payback after CEO criticism
By MarketWatch
Last update: 8:29 a.m. EDT May 6, 2009

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Ken Lewis will be out as Bank of America Corp.’s chief executive before the end of 2009, and here’s why: The government’s demand for $35 billion in additional balance-sheet cash will be too dillutive, prove too much of a burden for the bank and its shareholders.

Comment by Jon
2009-05-06 09:42:03

So they have to use Ken’s bonus to shore up their balance sheet? Socialism!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 07:53:16

So long as these too-big-to-fail banks have access to unlimited bailout monies, who can argue the banking sector is not in great shape?

UPDATE 1-Stress test banks need $75 bln capital: Citi analyst
Wed May 6, 2009 2:11pm BST

May 6 (Reuters) - Banks undergoing U.S. government stress tests will need a total of $75 billion in capital, with Bank of America and Wells Fargo having the largest need, analyst Keith Horowitz of Citigroup said.

The analyst expects 10 of 16 banks he covers, including KeyCorp, Regions Financial Corp and U.S. Bancorp, to raise capital after the stress tests.

While Bank of America is likely to need a substantial increase in common stock, the brokerage said it believes the bank can cover it via conversion of preferred stock.

“The (Bank of America) stock looks the cheapest in the group,” the analyst said.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:56:06

They only need $75 billion, assuming unemployment doesn’t get worse than 8%, and we let them keep lieing about the value of their assets now that mark-to-market can be ignored.

Comment by bink
2009-05-06 10:29:07

And housing doesn’t fall another 20%… (from when they started the tests)

 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:07:01

“The government has thumbed their noses at people who have jumbo mortgages,” said Steve Habetz, president of Threshold Mortgage Co. in Westport, Connecticut. :-)

Thumbing your noses at blue noses is so… uncouth ;-)

b: lacking in polish and grace : rugged c: awkward and uncultivated in appearance, manner, or behavior : rude

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:10:06

The forgotten link: (background music, “Sonny & Cher siging, …and the beat goes on…”

Rich Americans Default on Luxury Homes Like Subprime Victims:

By Bob Ivry and Dan Levy May 6 (Bloomberg)

“Chuck Dayton put down a quarter of the $950,000 purchase price when he bought his house in Newport Beach, California, in 2004. He was making $500,000 a year with his drywall company and he expected home values to keep rising.

Then the mortgage market collapsed, new construction stopped and builders no longer needed his services. Dayton, 43, went into default four months ago because he couldn’t afford payments on the three-bedroom home, located within a block of the Pacific Ocean.”

Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 12:36:31

“Bums still cry ‘Hey Buddy, have you got a dime?’ “

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:13:23

I can only wonder what Steve is on the “threshold” of? ;-)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 09:10:28

Hedge Fund Leader Blasts Obama for “Bullying” and “Abuse of Power”
Posted May 06, 2009 07:38am EDT by Tech Ticker in Investing.

Cliff Asness, whose firm manages some $20 billion of assets, has written an open letter blasting President Obama for his attack on the hedge fund industry in the wake of the Chrysler bankruptcy.

As you’ll recall, hedge funds, which hold approximately $1 billion in Chrysler bonds, refused the government’s offer to take approximately thirty cents on the dollar. Obama accused hedge funds of holding out “for the prospect of an unjustified taxpayer-funded bailout.”

These comments have enraged many in the industry but few have spoken out publicly. Asness, whose firm doesn’t hold Chrysler bonds, says the industry is genuinely afraid in the face of Obama’s power. Stating that he himself is “fearful writing this,” Asness still pulls no punches:

* “Let’s be clear, it is the job and obligation of all investment managers, including hedge fund managers, to get their clients the most return they can. They are allowed to be charitable with their own money, and many are spectacularly so, but if they give away their clients’ money to share in the “sacrifice”, they are stealing.”
* “The President screaming that the hedge funds are looking for an unjustified taxpayer-funded bailout is the big lie writ large. Find me a hedge fund that has been bailed out. Find me a hedge fund, even a failed one, that has asked for one. In fact, it was only because hedge funds have not taken government funds that they could stand up to this bullying. The TARP recipients had no choice but to go along.”
* “The President’s attempted diktat takes money from bondholders and gives it to a labor union that delivers money and votes for him. Why is he not calling on his party to “sacrifice” some campaign contributions, and votes, for the greater good? Shaking down lenders for the benefit of political donors is recycled corruption and abuse of power.”

Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-05-06 09:26:02

Chrysler won’t repay bailout money
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/index.htm?postversion=2009050603

…shocking and completely unexpected.
/sarcasm off

“”While we do not expect a recovery of these funds, we are comfortable that in the totality of the arrangement, the Treasury and the American taxpayer are being fairly compensated,” said the official.”

Allow me to translate: We now have part ownership of this bottomless pit and will continue to shovel billions of taxpayer dollar into this black hole.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:41:23

“…is recycled corruption and abuse of power.”

Old Puerto Rico schoolyard saying: “Takes one to know one” ;-)

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-05-06 11:27:15

Yeah, cry me a river……..

Us regular Joes have been living with “uncertainty” for 20-30 years. Kinda sucks, doesn’t it, Mr.Asness.

Some of these bondholders were getting inflated returns, because of the perceived/real risks.

Then you have the CDS guys, who are/were actively trying to throw GM and Chrysler under the bus, because they would profit from it.

Theoretically, I get the idea of “shorting” stocks. The trouble starts when theory meets actual practice, where it is too easy to manipulate stock prices

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2009-05-06 09:58:33

The bond holders have debt senior to the debt the unions have. They are picking over the bones, and the bond holders want their share, but the government (obama admin) wants teh bond holders share to go to the unions.

Law Schmaw…. We don’t need to let the law get in the way of a politically expedient resolution…. do we?

Comment by LongIslandLost
2009-05-06 12:00:59

The hedge funds gambled on a government bailout. They lost. If the hedge funds want to go to court, that is fine with me. Maybe they prefer that the taxpayer not get involved.

I’m a taxpayer who wishes he wasn’t involved. Since I am involved and it is my money, I get to set the rules. If you don’t like them, then make sure you don’t need my money.

Now if _I_ was the one setting the rules, I would have my pick of (very) personal assistants from hedge fund and union daughters and wives. So, the hedgies and unions better be glad I’m not in power.

 
Comment by measton
2009-05-06 13:17:28

Is the bond holders share going to the union or is this a way for the gov to make bondholders pay for the pension insurance that would kick in with Bankruptcy??

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 15:27:36

“Law Schmaw…. We don’t need to let the law get in the way of a politically expedient resolution…. do we?”

Seems to me that`s not the only problem with this, who is going to buy the bonds of any company that has a large union work force when you know you could be strong armed into taking pennies on the dollar to save the union. And if you don`t go along with it you`re name and picture are going to be all over the media and you can probably look forward to a few bus loads of protesters coming over for the weekend. That leaves the tax payer to buy the debt because losing the union jobs would be bad for the economy.

Comment by az_lender
2009-05-06 16:41:10

Have been thinking the exact same thing. I buy a lotta bonds. Must take note, do not buy any connected w/ unionized industries.

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Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 17:12:57

For GM, the health care tab is projected to total $46.7 billion over the lives of about 350,000 retirees and spouses. At Chrysler, it’s $10.9 billion for around 82,000 retirees.

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-05-06 18:55:45

Chrysler lenders group releases list of membersMay 6, 2009 9:38 PM ET

All Associated Press news NEW YORK (AP) - The names of a handful of Chrysler debt holders who oppose the automaker’s Chapter 11 bankruptcy were disclosed Wednesday, but a number of others dropped their opposition, a week after President Barack Obama publicly chastised the group for not supporting his plan to help remake the company.

The names of the investment firms representing nine funds, disclosed in a court filing by the group’s lawyers, comes amid reports of death threats against the dissident creditors. They say they are being steamrolled in bankruptcy court because of their refusal to go along with a government-brokered deal that would have reduced the Chrysler’s secured debt.

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Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 10:23:07

“Asness still pulls no punches”

What do this guys employees call him? Your Asness?

LOL.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-05-06 09:13:11

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said on Tuesday he welcomes a public debate on proposals to legalize and tax marijuana, which some suggest could provide a lucrative new revenue source for the cash-strapped state.

The Republican governor, whose term in office expires at the end of next year, was asked about the idea of treating pot like alcohol at an appearance in northern California to promote wildfire preparedness.

“No, I don’t think it’s time for that, but I think it’s time for a debate,” he said. “And I think we ought to study very carefully what other countries are doing that have legalized marijuana and other drugs, what affect it had on those countries, and are they happy with that decision.”

The former Hollywood actor, who has admitted smoking marijuana in the past, cited his native Austria as a country where “they want to roll back some of the decisions that were made in European countries.”

He said a decision to legalize marijuana, which has been outlawed in the United States since 1937, should not be made on the basis of raising revenues alone.

Schwarzenegger’s comments come days after a statewide Field Poll found that 56 percent of California voters support the idea of legalizing cannabis for recreational use and taxing its proceeds.

A bill introduced in the state Legislature by Assemblyman Tom Ammiano, a Democrat from San Francisco, would do just that — permitting taxed sales of marijuana to adults while barring sales to or possession by anyone under age 21. A similar regulatory structure already exists for alcoholic beverages.

Ammiano said his proposal would generate up to $1.3 billion in revenue for the state, which faces another multibillion-dollar budget shortfall just weeks after a landmark deal closing a $42 billion deficit.

Comment by Skip
2009-05-06 13:52:12

Admitted? He was filmed enjoying one after the Mr. Universe contest.

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:41:50

Oh fer’ chrissakes just do it and get it over with already. It’s what so many have wanted for so long they’ve finally worn me down entirely. You win. Light up!

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:08:53

One by one, down they go… ;-)

I’m Aussie (Canadian by birth) but an American Libertarian at heart.

The fewer laws against small-harm individual-discretion choices in place, the better!

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Comment by az_lender
2009-05-07 03:31:20

Isn’t there a problem with Federal law here? I’m all for legalizing MJ, but isn’t it Federally controlled? (I know maybe the Feds ignore some of the SF “medical distribution” clubs, but surely they would balk at allowing MJ to be sold in the 7-11. No?)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-05-06 09:24:26

George better rehire Costanza. :-)

Yankees Pitch $48 Steak, Bad Burgers at New Stadium:

Review by Ryan Sutton May 6 (Bloomberg)

“Ballparks across America are known for serving forgettable, overpriced food. That’s the only way to excuse the dining options at the new Yankee Stadium.”

“The Steinbrenner family, criticized for authorizing exorbitant player contracts that yield disappointing results, has built a $1.5 billion stadium that dishes out disappointing cuisine.”

Maybe Phil Gramm was right, we Americans are just whiners within a mental depression. ;-(

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-05-06 10:21:42

I’ve heard that the Yanks only offer overpriced run-of-the-mill brews, too, while the Mets have local beer from Brooklyn Brewery on tap in addition to the typical ballpark swill. For shame, Yanks!

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 09:43:44

And presenting, straight from today’s front page of the local paper The Olympian:

‘Thurston median home price down 11.5 percent’

Thurston County’s median home price declined to $232,600 in April, an 11.5 percent drop compared with the same month last year, according to figures released Tuesday by the Northwest Multiple Listing Service.

But DON’T panic, man! Didn’t you hear me?! STOP PANICKING!

But Steves said he’s seeing sales activity increase as first-time home buyers take advantage of both the low prices and the $8,000 federal tax credit recently approved by Congress“We’re hovering near the bottom,” Steves said.

Whew…
* dabs at brow with lace hanky *
For a minute there I was worried we weren’t different after all…

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-05-06 10:55:09

Low prices? Shouldn’t the median in a place like Thurston County be $150k or less.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 15:20:33

Yeah! It should. And I can’t wait to see it reach that one of these months…

 
 
Comment by slb
2009-05-06 13:17:19

“We’re hovering near the bottom.” Something about that quote struck me. Maybe because I watched a bunch of flatfish ‘hover near the bottom’ the other day. I surmised that the unusual hovering activity was triggered by the half eaten flounder they were near, since flatfish are normally buried into the bottom. Somebody needs to tell Steves that the housing market, like flatfish, will ‘hover near [or in]the bottom’ for a looong time.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 10:02:04

There are no geniuses in the outhouse…
By Joe Bageant

Sometimes you overhear a remark so wonderfully prescient you wish you’d said it yourself. Especially if you are a writer. Sitting in back of the Troubadour Club, a West Virginia honky tonk high in the Blue Ridge Mountains, I’m listening to Petie Yost, an auctioneer, talk to Bud Shanholtz, who lives on Social Security and drives a snowplow occasionally during the winter.

Now ole Petie uses exotic economic terms such as “investment return” and “percentage.” He says things like, “I don’t do household auctions ’cause there ain’t no real percentage in it.” Which makes him an economic expert in these beery circles. And right now he is telling Bud why our Social Security and the FDIC do not exist.

“Whadaya mean they don’t exist?” asks Bud.

“Because they are both absolutely broke,” replies Petie. “Tits up. Nada.”

“How do ya mean?”

“Well, it’s like this. If you only have $100, and no job, but you owe $15 on your phone bill, and $700 for your rent and $400 on your credit card, you’re in deep shit. Right? You can’t just pay one of those bills and figure you’re OK. Right?”

“I’d say so” agrees Bud.

“Well, that’s the fix the U.S. Government is in. If you ask if the government has enough money to fund the FDIC during a bank run, and sure as Nellie’s goat eats cans there’s gonna be one, the government says yes. And if you ask if the Social Security checks will keep coming and never bounce, it says yes. But it’s one set of bills that comes out of one government pocket. Ain’t no special safe in Fort Knox where they keep the Social Security money or the FDIC money. So the government pays the $15 light bill and hope people never ask for their bank savings to be covered by the FDIC. Lucky for them, ain’t many people even got savings anyway.”

Bud nods and Petie continues.

“Meanwhile, they pay out the Social Security money as it dribbles in from kids flippimg hamburgers, and pay the $15 light bill, and pray to hell the Ay-rabs keep loaning them some dough now and then, until they can pawn off the rest of the country and maybe break even in the long haul. That is, if the bailouts keep the bankers’ shell game going long enough so nobody can figure out what’s up. Of course the bankers ain’t gonna squeal on the whole deal because they’re the only ones getting richer in this thing. But still the government is working out of one pocket where the hundred bucks used to be.”

Bud makes a sour face, and says, “Well, that stinks like a country outhouse in July, don’t it?”

“Worse, I’d say. Nobody expects a whole country to be run out of a shithouse. But everybody figures the shithouse in Washington is full of geniuses.”

I bought them both a round just for the pleasure of hearing some common sense for a change.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 10:06:48

test…did I get put in the penalty box for some reason?

Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 10:09:10

apparently not. Hrm…I just can’t form a mental model of what kind of filter/moderation system Ben has going on back there. Some messages go straight through, so they can’t all be held for him to review….I wonder if there are keywords?

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-05-06 10:25:01

There are almost certainly some flagged keywords, but the process by which some innocuous posts get through while others don’t remains seemingly capricious. Or mysterious to me, at least.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 10:31:29

I think there are - the obvious stuff fails.

Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 10:48:55

Hrm…well, I have had a few posts end up in /dev/null that didn’t have anything that I would expect to flag them. Maybe it throws out random posts as well, just to keep people guessing ;)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 10:55:32

LOL - dev-null - talk about a hardcore Unix geek!

 
Comment by packman
2009-05-06 11:10:21

I’m impressed you knew that FPSS - you’re quite the Renaissance man.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-05-06 11:13:11

Maybe he’s some sort of mutant. He even knows how to make ülauts and a dressing for chick-weed.

You! Fasty! Fasty? Are you some sort of mutant? You can tell us, come on….

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-05-06 11:17:05

If I weren’t (intellectually) scary, how would you respect me?

LOL :-D

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-05-06 13:36:36

I’ve taken to assuming that it is not moderation that delays some posts for LONG periods of time, and some apparently permanently banished to /dev/null—but rather bugs on the server. This is mostly due to the fact that I can’t discern a pattern.

Oh, and because I get the sense that Ben is too busy to sit there approving posts all day long. :-)

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-05-07 03:36:23

One thing I’ve noticed is that it’s my LONGER posts that tend to go to /dev/null

 
 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-05-06 11:56:07

I wonder if there are keywords?

Based on what I’ve heard from Ben and what I’ve personally observed, here are two things that I know/think will result in a lost comment:

1)Too many links (URLs). Posts with multiple links get put in the “Spam Bucket” which Ben must review manually. If there are too many posts in the Spam Bucket, he just pitches it. (There might be other ways to land in the SB, but I didn’t ask)

2)This is a guess. Because of latency in the server and the fact that comments will only nest so far.. if you reply to something that, at the time you reply, still has room for nested comments, fine. But if you reply - and during the time you’re typing - the nesting limit is reached, I’m guessing your comment goes to the void.

I have not had a comment “lost” due to language and I prefer not to cuss rather than ruin perfectly good obscenities with random punctuation marks.

 
 
 
Comment by Suffolk_Them
2009-05-06 10:25:38

Foreclosures aren’t just for subprime buyers anymore
Bloomberg News
May 6, 2009, 6:04AM

Foreclosures have come to the Hamptons, the beach towns about 100 miles east of New York City on Long Island, where homeowners have included Blackstone Group LP Chief Executive Officer Stephen Schwarzman, hedge fund manager John Paulson and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. CEO Lloyd Blankfein.

Almost 90 borrowers entered the foreclosure process in the towns of East Hampton and Southampton in the first 10 weeks of 2009. That compared with 109 in the same period last year and 73 in the first 10 weeks of 2007, according to the Real Estate Report in West Islip, N.Y.

Home sales in the Hamptons fell 67 percent in the first quarter from a year earlier, the most since records were first kept in 1982, according to Town & Country Real Estate of the East End LLC. The median sale price slid 28 percent from a year earlier.

Rule changes spurred by rising defaults now require lenders to work with delinquent New York homeowners before beginning the foreclosure process, said Pat Ammirati, president of the Real Estate Report.

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-05-06 10:35:46

Saw an interesting political cartoon today.

Shows a bunch of politicians and academics shovelling money out of the back of a trailer.

The text has -

“Planned Economy or Planned Destruction?”

“Plan of Action for the U.S. - Spend! Spend! Spend!”

“Under the guise of recovery- bust the Government - blame the capitalists for the failure - junk the Constitution and declare a dictatorship”

Originally appeared in the Chicago Tribune, April 1934.

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:34:37

I too think there are more parallels with the ’30s in this particular bust, than in any other 20th-century period.

What makes me anxious about that is the ’solutions’ reached for by some hard-hit countries, desperate for change. That Tribune cartoon applies also to the Nazis, and I think the Depression was probably as much responsible for the rise of the Nazis as the WWI reparations.

I have to wonder what radical ’solutions’ will be reached by some of the most desperate countries, out of this Depression this time around. Because I honestly do think it’s a Depression. I see no way of avoiding one, and the antics of our current ‘leaders’ do not inspire me with confidence that they do, either.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-05-06 10:53:56

Gold futures rise again as data points to inflation ahead
By Kate Gibson, MarketWatch
Last update: 1:25 p.m. EDT May 6, 2009

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) - Gold futures on Wednesday climbed higher, furthering the prior day’s strong gains, as the latest economic data fueled thinking of inflation ahead, bolstering the dollar-denominated precious metal’s appeal as a hedge.
“We’re up today on renewed enthusiasm along with the equities market. With mortgages increasing and the positive ADP numbers … it could lead to inflation down the road,” said Rob Kurzatkowski, senior commodities analyst, OptionsExpress.
In another signal that the pace of the economy’s decline is moderating, an industry report found private-sector employment fell by an estimated 491,000 jobs in April, the smallest decline in six months. Read about ADP Employment Index.
Also helping boost sentiment, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported a 2% rise last week in the count of mortgage applications, adding to thoughts that the troubled housing market could be stabilizing. See detailed story.
In early afternoon trade, gold for June delivery climbed $4.5, or 0.5%, to $908.80 an ounce on the New York Stock Exchange, after rising as high as $913.50 earlier on.
Copper for July delivery gained 10 cents, or 4.8%, to $2.18 a pound on the Comex division of the NYME.
“Spot gold has been up for the last day or two on a weak dollar and concerns over the U.S. bank stress test results,” said George Gero, vice president, RBC Capital Markets Global Futures.
Published reports varied on the amounts needed to comply with the government-administered test, with the New York Times reporting Bank of America Corp. (BAC:
bank of america corporation com
News , chart , profile , more
Last: 12.48+1.64+15.13%
1:53pm 05/06/2009
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BAC 12.48, +1.64, +15.1%) would need more than $30 billion in additional capital. Read more.
Viewed as a safe haven amid any trouble in the financial markets, gold on Tuesday rallied above $915.00 an ounce, the contract’s highest level in a week, before sliding as the dollar switched direction and rose against the euro.
The precious metal in February climbed above $1,000 an ounce, and fell to a near three-month low of $864 in mid April.
On Wednesday, the U.S. dollar reversed losses and gained against most of its major rivals. See Currencies.
On Wall Street, stocks were mixed, with banking and energy sectors striking solid gains while other sectors slipped. Read full report. End of Story
Kate Gibson is a reporter for MarketWatch, based in New York.

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 16:29:13

Hey wmbz:

I’ve been thinking a lot about this inflation/deflation stuff.

I’m thinking now that we are IN hyperinflation already, just not aware of it.

I know, falling bubble asset prices, falling wages, & unemployment, but bear with me for a sec. These all assume that hyperinflation is driven by the consumer, right?

What if inflation/hyperinflation is driven not by the consumer but by governments and central banks? I reckon that borrowing costs are rising and the government’s attempt to stop these rising borrowing costs, by ‘printing’ ever-larger bills (billions to trillions, they are in effect ‘printing’ trillion-dollar bills now) are the only buffer from the effects of those rising borrowing costs hitting us, the populace?

In this way, when the government bailouts stop, that buffer stops, and then the rising borrowing costs devolve onto us. And those bailouts must stop at some point soon, I think…the bailouts are merely stalling the rising prices from hitting us, but the prices ARE ALREADY rising drastically. That’s why it takes billions to trillions in bailouts to feed them.

In short, I’m starting to think hyperinflation isn’t rising prices or rising wages, but really the rising costs of borrowing. And it’s driven by governments and central banks, having nothing to do with consumers/consumer goods at all, which are merely symptoms and not the disease.

Does this make any sense or am I way off-base here?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 10:56:08

Financial Times
Subprime lobbyists in $370m battle
By Edward Luce in Washington

Published: May 6 2009 05:02 | Last updated: May 6 2009 05:02

The top 25 US originators of subprime mortgages – the risky assets that sparked the global financial crisis – spent almost $370m in Washington over the past decade on lobbying and campaign donations as they tried to ward off tighter regulation of their industry, an investigation has shown.

The study, which will be released today by the Center for Public Integrity, a non-profit investigative journalism organisation, is likely to strengthen public calls for much tougher financial regulation in the US.

It shows that most of the top 25 originators, most of which are now bankrupt, were either owned or heavily financed by the nation’s largest banks, including Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan and Bank of America. Together, they originated $1,000bn in subprime mortgages in 2005-07 – almost three-quarters of the total.

The banks, which have received the vast bulk of the $700bn in troubled asset relief funds issued since last October, also supported the lobbying effort to prevent tighter regulation of the subprime market.

Nine of the top 10 lenders were in California, one of the states badly affected by the housing crisis that emerged after a surge in lending to riskier, or subprime, borrowers, many of whom were forced to foreclose.

At least eight of the top 10 were backed at least in part by banks that have received bank bail-out money.

Eleven of the lenders on the CPI list have made payments to settle claims of widespread lending abuses, including four recipients of Tarp funds.

“Their unbridled political contributions and massive lobbying created the lack of regulation and oversight that led to this ­crisis,” said Bill Buzenberg, who headed the CPI investigation. “Despite the signs, Congress, the White House and the Federal Reserve all dithered while the subprime disaster spread.”

Comment by DinOR
2009-05-06 14:55:32

PB,

After everything that’s happened, it ‘is’ good to see an occasional piece on the source.

Still, I tend to see this “conduit” as a REIC takeover of WS, not the other way around. No doubt Citi etc. stood to profit, but real estate was the vehicle. And they had to be imploring WS that they basically had -zero- regulation.

When compared to conforming to the NASD/SEC/NYSE, this had to look like the Wild, Wild West? As long as the borrower basically… agrees, it’s all good.

Comment by neuromance
2009-05-06 18:33:23

I’d be shocked - SHOCKED - to discover bailout money circulating back to politicians.

SHOCKED!

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 10:59:48

The too-big-to-fail banks that automatically qualified for bailout funds appear to have been among the key perpetrators of the financial crisis. Apparently moral hazard and financial engineering don’t mix.

Financial Times
Few escape blame over subprime explosion
By Edward Luce
Published: May 6 2009 05:02 | Last updated: May 6 2009 05:02

Chronicling the explosion of subprime mortgages is a bit like reading Murder on the Orient Express. As in the novel, in which everyone is revealed to have had a hand in the murder, America’s subprime story implicates almost every power centre – including the Bush administration, the Federal Reserve and the Democratic party.

Take Roland Arnall, founder and chief executive of Ameriquest Mortgage Co, the California-based company that made more than $80bn in subprime mortgages between 2005 and 2007.

Ameriquest was repeatedly held up by regulators and courts for abusive lending practices, most recently in 2006 when it agreed to pay a $325m fine after it was shown it had misled borrowers, falsified documents and pressed appraisers to inflate home values.

The company, which has since closed, gave $263,000 to George W. Bush in campaign contributions. Mr Arnall, who died last year, went on to become Mr Bush’s ambassador to the Netherlands. To keep things even-handed, his company donated $1.57m to the Democratic party.

Between 2005 and 2007, which was the peak of subprime lending, the top 25 subprime originators made almost $1,000bn in loans to more than 5m borrowers, many of whom have had their homes repossessed, says the Center for Public Integrity, a Washington-based journalistic watchdog.

CPI contacted the chief executives or former CEOs of all of the 25 originators. Most did not respond. Of those that did, Goldman Sachs said in a statement: “As an industry, we collectively neglected to raise enough questions about whether some of the trends and practices that became commonplace really served the public’s long-term interest.”

Those loans lit the fuse that led to the global financial meltdown. The Fed, which refused to tighten regulation of these non-bank companies, since it is charged only with direct regulation of banks, told Congress it would be too expensive to provide oversight.

Last October Alan Greenspan, former Fed chairman, told a congressional committee: “Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders’ equity, myself especially, are in a state of shocked disbelief.” But resistance to regulation went deeper than Mr Greenspan’s ideological objections.

The CPI investigation shows most originators spent millions of dollars lobbying Washington in the mid-1990s, much of it to prevent new legislation that would tighten restrictions on subprime lending.

The financial sector has spent $3.5bn in the past decade lobbying in Washington and made $2.2bn in campaign donations, says the Center for Responsive Politics, an independent watchdog.

The CPI investigation shows that at least 21 of the 25 top subprime originators, most of which are bankrupt, were either owned or financed by the biggest recipients of troubled asset relief funds, including Citibank, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and JPMorgan – also the largest political donors in Washington.

HSBC, the British bank, is listed as the eighth largest subprime originator because of its purchase of Decision One in 1999 and Household International in 2003. From 1999 to 2008 HSBC donated more than $6.4m and spent $21m on lobbying activities in Washington.

“The largest American and European banks made the bubble in subprime lending possible by financing it on the front end, so they could reap the huge rewards from securitising and selling mortgage-backed securities on the back end,” says Bill Buzenberg, who led the investigation. “Washington was warned repeatedly over the last decade that these high-cost loans represented a systemic risk to the economy. It is hard to believe the major banks were unaware of what was going on, or what the consequences might ultimately be.”

Among the other top originators were New Century Financial Corp, which was alleged by investigators in its 2007 bankruptcy proceedings to have had an “aggressive manner that elevated the risks to dangerous and ultimately fatal levels”. Its largest financial backer was Goldman Sachs, which has received $10bn in Tarp bail-out funds.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 13:57:28

“everyone is revealed to have had a hand in the murder”

The silver lining: If everyone had a hand in the murder, then it is very hard to place the blame on anyone.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 14:53:01

Nonsense, RIP THEM ALL OUT!

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 15:04:48

Since this is, as Ben repeats, the financial event of our lifetimes, it will be interesting to see if there is a sea change in the symbiotic relationship between the banks and the congress….You contribute obscene amounts of cash to my campaign, I’ll sponsor obscene legislation that benefits you stuff.

Our President Obama appears to me to be sharp, but without the insight into consequences. If he is grandiose enough to break the backs of his patrons, as he appears to be willing, it will get interesting.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-05-06 11:34:52

WASHINGTON (AFP) – US and foreign banks were not unwitting victims of circumstance but deliberately culpable in the financial meltdown that engulfed the United States last year, a campaign group said Wednesday.

The Center for Public Integrity named 25 “subprime” mortgage companies whose risky lending was blamed for the US property market collapse and the subsequent global economic crisis.

Many of the lenders were either controlled by US and European banks, or could not have indulged in their high-risk lending spree without the connivance of banks, the investigative journalism group said in a new study.

“The mega-banks that funded the subprime industry were not victims of an unforeseen financial collapse, as they have sometimes portrayed themselves,” the center’s executive director Bill Buzenberg said.

“These banks were deliberate enablers that bankrolled the type of lending that’s now threatening the financial system,” he said.

The study was released as the US House of Representatives was set Wednesday to vote on a Senate-approved bill that would set up a 9/11-style commission of experts to probe the root causes of the financial crisis.

The purpose is not “to point fingers and place blame,” Republican Representative Darrell Issa said, “but rather to identify mistakes” to prevent a future recurrence.

The purpose is not to point fingers?????????????? Why the F not Darrell, there should be more than finger pointing going on.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 12:05:58

BULLETIN CRUDE-OIL FUTURES CLOSE AT SIX-MONTH HIGH

PAUL B. FARRELL
‘Goldman Conspiracy:’ Bogle’s ‘pathological mutation?’
Machinations on Wall Street, in government give rise to 13-episode TV plot
By Paul B. Farrell, MarketWatch
Last update: 6:50 p.m. EDT May 4, 2009

ARROYO GRANDE, Calif. (MarketWatch) — Prediction: The new movie “Public Enemies” will be a mega-blockbuster. Not because everybody loves “Pirates of the Caribbean” star Johnny Depp and Christian Bale, star of “Terminator: Salvation” and “Dark Knight.”

No, it’ll be a blockbuster because we get a chance to cheer for a new dark antihero, the infamous Depression era gangster, machine-gun-toting John Dillinger: Cheer because this new Dillinger is doing what we all secretly want to do — rip off our corrupt banking system, turn the tables on the guys who have been ripping us off for too long.

Dillinger must be the guy former SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt had in mind when he told Fortune: “America’s investors have been ripped off as massively as a bank being held up by a guy with a gun and a mask.” That was the last recession. Today, it’s a heck of a lot worse in the “Great Recession:” Bad banks, financial weapons of mass destruction, AK-47 derivatives.

Yes, this time the banks are the gangsters. They’re robbing Main Street’s Treasury. And it’s an inside job. Hank Paulson, the “Goldman Conspiracy’s” Trojan Horse, plays a “Dillinger,” leading a much bigger conspiracy, the “Happy Conspiracy,” that robbed America’s 300 million citizens and taxpayers. They made off with trillions, while our “guards,” a clueless Congress, laid down their guns and surrendered the keys to the vault.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 12:43:33

Wall Street Journal

* MAY 6, 2009

Fed Directors’ Ties to Banks Spur Calls for Changes

By KATE KELLY and JON HILSENRATH

The 12 regional Federal Reserve banks have conflicting practices regarding directors who are board members of banks and own shares of bank-holding companies, heightening calls to overhaul the policies at these financial institutions.

Corporate-governance practices at the regional Fed bank system faced criticism this week following a page-one article Monday in The Wall Street Journal detailing how Stephen Friedman, chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and a Goldman Sachs Group Inc. director, was granted a waiver that allowed him to hold Goldman shares even after Goldman became a Fed-regulated bank-holding company in September.

This week, some other regional Fed banks, including Kansas City and Dallas, said they wouldn’t have allowed such a situation. And some banking executives criticized the actions of the New York Fed, which declined to comment on Tuesday but previously said it couldn’t afford to lose Mr. Friedman at such a critical time.

No director of a regional Fed bank appointed to represent the public, as Mr. Friedman was, should have any connections with regulated financial institutions, said Cam Fine, chief executive of Independent Community Bankers of America, a trade association. “That, to me, is a blatant conflict of interest. That should be a very bright line.”

Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 12:54:37

I must have missed something. Is it the Fed’s job to represent the public?

I suppose it’s good people see *a* conflict of interest, it just appears they’re missing the ultimate conflict of interest - the FED is not a gov’t entity and is owned by banks, not ‘we the people’. Will the media make this connection/next step?

 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 16:14:30

I bought 600 shares this AM of GSG (I had sold yesterday believing that I would buy on a “dip.”)

I made $250.
If I had not tried to time this, I’d have made $650

Up quite a lot and done nicely for me the last 2 weeks.

(This is not the way I wanted things to happen, I’m just playing the hand dealt)

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-05-06 13:07:17

I’ve seen suicides of Freddy Mac executives and of FB’s before, but this is the first stressed out building contractor I’ve seen take this dark path.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-murder-suicide7-2009may07,0,2401998.story

An electrical contractor who was having financial problems shot to death his live-in girlfriend and 3 1/2-year-old son before killing himself, police said today. …
A work van labeled Rubin Electric was parked outside the apartment.

Too bad he decided to take others with him.

Comment by Observer
2009-05-06 14:24:54

I can’t fathom how someone could take the life of their own child. :-(

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-05-06 14:48:24

Depression/suicide/murder happens all the time. If it is time for it to happen physiologically, a trigger will present. I know of several cases locally in the past few years, and they did not make the news. The media is hyping this, just like they hyped a few cases of flu. It is as if the system doesn’t work for them if there is no drama.

 
 
Comment by waiting_in_la
2009-05-06 13:25:36

LOL!

Chinese drywall has hit MSM :

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/06/florida.chinese.drywall.family/index.html

Haven’t you guys been joking about this, for a while?

Comment by Muggy
2009-05-06 16:11:16

Yes — nobody here specifically predicted Chinese drywall, but it has been repeatedly mentioned that most bubble construction is garbage.

EVERYBODY RUN! The Chinese Drywall is coming!!

 
 
Comment by clue
2009-05-06 15:45:34

Hey, anybody remember who was the poster was that called SKF going to 40 bucks?

Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 16:49:10

That was Voz. Give a credit where it is due.

Voz, where do you think SKF will stop? Not that I am going to play in financials, I am just cuirous what you think.

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:53:27

In my mental image, vozworth wears a purple smoking jacket and drinks madeira.

But clue has piercings, tats, and lies in bed half the day recovering.

Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 18:33:01

Im wearing a smokey brown Carhart jacket guzzling cheap Busch Light Bitch piss, sporting multiple religious tattoos…a grey gotee wearing Adidas hicking shoes in the house I bought in 2007 after reading the blog for about a year.

Im listening to country radio…..welcome to America.

Im one of the only cowboys round here..fella.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 18:53:55

Dad blast it. And I’m usually so GOOD at those things too.

At least you wearing a jacket.

And who you callin fella, mate! :-)

hahahaha - looks like your mental image-maker even more wrong than mine… (I’m well met but I’m NO fella)

 
Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 20:21:13

Ha, a cowboy who is a haiku fan. You are a strange bird, voz.

 
 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 18:02:36

S&P test of 940. almost there.

here comes the goodbye.

*wipes crocodile teardrop for SKF.

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 19:14:39

and no tears for SRS?

For shame!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 16:50:00

8)

JPM May 37.50’s going in the money was another recent call. But hey, tomorrow is sell the news, right. RIGHT ??

the garden is all GREEN SHOOTS baby !!

this comment squozen for your pleasure

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 17:53:36

“the garden is all GREEN SHOOTS baby !!”

You’re da man!!!

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 17:18:23

the May JPM 37.50’s are in the money kids.

set condition 1SQ, hot money panic in.

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 17:46:58

[reads EAM] “To the U.S.S. Alabama: Rebel-controlled missiles being fueled. Launch codes compromised, dissidents threaten to launch at continental United States, set defcon 2. Immediately launch ten Trident missile sorties.” They’re FUELLING THEIR MISSILES! We don’t have time to fu*k around!

congrats voz!

Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 19:03:29

Muir you have the con.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 16:15:48

Good morning USA! (Well, good evening I guess…)

Sydney checking in…our Depression’s starting in good and earnest now. First up, record loss reported by Bankwest (a subsidiary of one of our Big 4, CBA) of $139MM for the year 2008. (Banks aren’t supposed to report losses here, only profits.) A major contributor to this loss was a jump in loan impairment expense, from $87.8MM to…wait for it…$825.3MM. I reckon that’s, what, roughly a 9.5x jump in a year?

Due mostly to commercial lending and property losses in South Australia (mining country) and Queensland (tourist country).

Links to follow in next post of course…

AND, the Sydney Morning Spin is really starting to turn goth these days…this the latest from this morning (excerpt):

City dwellers sinking deeper into debt
Adele Horin
May 7, 2009

EVEN before the recession threw tens of thousands of people out of work, Sydneysiders were struggling to cope financially, failing to save or budget, and unable to pay their bills on time.

A survey by the Wesley Mission, conducted in December, shows Sydney residents were financially worse off than they were when surveyed two years earlier. Almost one in three Sydneysiders said it would be difficult or impossible to cope with a $160 increase in their monthly expenses compared with 14 per cent in August 2006. There was also a near doubling in the numbers who would find it difficult or impossible to raise $2000 on short notice, rising to 30 per cent of Sydney residents. And 23 per cent could not pay their electricity, gas or telephone bills on time compared with 13 per cent in 2006.

Based on a survey of 450 Sydneysiders, it shows almost half had no savings and one in eight were on the verge of insolvency by spending more than they earned. Many would find it hard to cope with an emergency, such as an unexpected medical bill, the report said. An alarming 20 per cent of credit card holders could never pay off their balance in a 12-month period, yet more than half the residents surveyed had neglected to draw up a budget in the previous year.

(link to follow)

We’re still a year behind you guys, but I think we might be able to *do* this Housing Depression *deeper* and harder when all is said & done… (aussie aussie aussie, oi oi oi?)

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 16:20:11

Linxylinx:

http://ozrisk.net
(blog site links to the Bankwest press release)…

http://www.smh.com.au/national/city-dwellers-sinking-deeper-into-debt-20090506-aved.html?page=-1

(Does it take a general collapse for the Herald to start real reporting again, and get off the real estate cheer squad?)

 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 17:07:31

Renfield

Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!, Oi! Oi! Oi!

(evening here)

Have a great morning.
Nah. Were about the same, no decoupling. :-)

Making predictions is difficult, specially when speaking about the future.

I do have to agree that Sidney was one of the “frothiest” areas on the planet.

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:19:17

Muir…VERY well done.

Next time you’re down our way, make it during June and we’ll go to a State-of-Origin footy game in Queensland. (All the big islanders come to the pubs and stand watching with folded arms. Keeps the rowdies in line, just.)

We can buy a schooner in your honour and get over-involved and abuse the refs at the top of our lungs. I’ll snap pictures so you can take ‘em back to the wilds of Florida and show all the Cubans and Latinos there how we party down undah. ;-)

(Said tongue-in-cheek, but seriously if you’re ever down this way, you must email me off this blog! Me & my husband would love to take you, and some of the other folks on here, out to a footy game if you’re into that kind of thing…pity it’s so bloody far!)

 
Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:21:33

Shoot, I just replied to you but it did have the word “bl*dy” in it…I hope that’s not one of the naughty ones…

 
Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:25:20

Darn I think it was. Anyway, invited you to a State-of-Origin footy game with me and my husband and a FREE SCHOONER if you’re down our way anytime in June…it’s not as much fun doing the invite the second time around!! :-)

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 17:11:41

well, at least ya got the Ozzie Dollah in a blow off top !!!

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 17:50:15

hehehe - almost makes me wish I were staying in those instead of buying remnibi with our little extra crumbs…

*almost*

 
 
 
Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 18:02:41

Anyone up for some late night KFC chicken?
All those green shoots gave me a case of the munchies.

Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 18:23:22

muir, your in the zone….

S&P test of 940 fails on a technical retracement, and disjointed movements are ahead. The GDX is going to pull back hard along with gold and the rest of the commodity sector, but its only a short move lower….medium term at the base of the pullback the wave becomes the bottom of claims on the ability to produce hard cash on PLANET MONEY…

the US Bond Bear Market is the Dollar Crisis. I do like the S&P the with a lucky 7 handle as the inflation begins and the bottom of residential housing manifests.

the painless blood draw

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 18:36:29

Wait, wait.

When you say “as the inflation begins” and “the bottom of residential housing”, does that mean an overall BIG inflation stage beginning? Or am I reading in what I’m already predisposed to think?

sigh…we’ve hardly had ANY deflation yet at all, and heaps of inflation in foods & other luxuries…if suddenly inflation is going up, then we mostly missed the fun deflation stage. You know, the part where we could actually *afford* a livable habitation.

 
 
 
Comment by neuromance
2009-05-06 18:03:57

Society is like a stew. If you don’t keep it stirred up you get a lot of scum on the top. -Edward Abbey, naturalist and author (1927-1989)

It seems that the time is ripe for some stirring.

On the other hand… be careful what you wish for.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 18:12:29

Financial Times
Senate bill gives freer hand to mortgage market
By Saskia Scholtes in New York
Published: May 7 2009 01:28 | Last updated: May 7 2009 01:28

The US Senate on Wednesday passed legislation that seeks to prop up the housing market by giving mortgage servicers freedom to modify problem home loans without fear of investor lawsuits.

The bill also revamps the Hope for Homeowners programme aimed at helping borrowers remortgage and raises the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation’s coverage on individual bank accounts and its ability to borrow from the Treasury. It also strengthens the terms of the Troubled Asset Relief Program.

The House of Representatives has already passed its version of the legislation and the Senate tried to tailor its bill, which passed 91-5, so the two could be easily reconciled. The legislation protects servicers from lawsuits filed by mortgage bond investors when they modify loans under government anti-foreclosure initiatives.

This so-called “safe harbour” provision has been controversial because investors owning securities backed by borrower’s main mortgages say banks owning riskier second-lien mortgages could use the legislation to avoid billions of dollars of losses.

Second-lien loans are mostly owned by banks, which also own the mortgage servicers. Investors say the “safe harbour” provision could allow servicers to favour banks that own them.

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 18:28:04

Sorry, I don’t get it.

So…a mortgage servicer can essentially change the mortgage any way they want, good bad or ugly, and the people who actually invested in the mortgages can’t sue them even if they do a bad job?

I’m not sure I’m understanding this at all, but when I see phrases like “without fear of investor lawsuits” and “protects [anyone] from lawsuits”, it just makes me react as in: Why would I or anyone else want to be an investor at all in any of this, then? If an investor isn’t allowed to sue no matter what?

Explanation needed. Small words please.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 20:03:14

“Small words please.”

- Protect banks

- Screw investors

- Moral hazard

Comment by Renfield
2009-05-06 20:51:00

Now I KNOW FOR SURE you can’t really be a professor. :-)
Much too concise!

Anyway, thanx for that…I guess my takeaway was right after all. I just thought that I had to be missing something b/c on the face of it this looks completely stupid and now that I have your backup, I’ll go out on a limb and say this will probably going to chase away any investors with two brain cells to rub together.

Nice going, guys. Pretty soon the only investors left in the mortgage market will be governments.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 23:17:35

“Pretty soon the only investors left in the mortgage market will be governments.”

Many who post here are adamant in their insistence that the Fed is not part of the government.

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-05-07 02:05:37

IIUC the Fed would be called a “quango” in Brit-speak.

 
 
 
 
Comment by az_lender
2009-05-07 04:00:06

The govt keeps indicating that it wants to re-start the securitization of mortgages, yet the bill you are reporting on seems likely to prevent future securitization of mortgages. (Who would buy the insecure securities?)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 18:20:31

Financial Times
John Gapper
How banks learnt to play the system
May 6, 2009 9:54pm

My Thursday FT column this week is about the US bank stress tests and Basel:

Those who cannot remember the past, wrote George Santayana, are condemned to repeat it.

Twenty years ago, global banking regulators declared that every bank ought to hold core capital equivalent to 4 per cent of its risk-weighted assets. Today, the US government will say the same thing differently.

This repetition will be expensive. It may force Bank of America to raise an extra $34bn (€25.6bn, £22.6bn) of common equity, and Citigroup to raise up to $10bn. More than half of the 19 banks under scrutiny could be told to drum up capital.

The difference between 1988 and today is that tangible common equity is the new tier 1 capital.

To all but bankers or regulators, that last sentence is incomprehensible, of course. Yet it encapsulates why two decades of reform intended to protect banks against collapse not only failed to work but had the perverse effect of hiding the problem.

Comment by Muir
2009-05-06 18:34:44

“The Federal Reserve underlined in an assessment of the 19 largest U.S. banks its desire for common equity to be the “dominant” element in banks’ capital.

“Voting common stockholders’ equity generally should be the dominant element within Tier 1 capital, so the approach is consistent with existing capital guidelines and does not imply a new capital standard,” the Fed said today in describing the methodology used for its so-called stress test”

2 weeks ago….

Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 18:56:32

unsecured creditors are tier one…..just sayin.

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2009-05-06 19:12:35

Stucco, why were the banks that passed or failed the Stress test Capital deficient?

Current Capital is Tier One against what Government support indicates. ALL THE BANKS ARE SOLVENT even under TARP ONE.

it aint Winston talking.

regional bank consolidations would indacte that environment. bank rally continues even as FDIC settles accounts on BFF.

this comment hae been brought to you by a bANK fAILURE

Comment by drumminj
2009-05-06 19:27:56

voz, I get the impression you’re a sharp cat, but for the life of me I just can’t make sense of a single thing you say.

Each of the words make sense on their own, but when you put them all together..it might as well be a foreign language to me.

Should I be drinking less…or more?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 20:00:11

“voz, I get the impression you’re a sharp cat, but for the life of me I just can’t make sense of a single thing you say.”

Pretend you are reading Joyce or Faulkner, and enjoy.

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Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 20:13:25

+1

I have a feeling that if I only could make sense of 50% of what voz said I could make some profitable market moves, but most of the times I have only a vague idea what he is talking about.

Nevertheless, it is a routine for me to search the bits and buckets at the end of the day for any comments from voz, FPSS, and recently Muir. I used to search for comments from hoz and txchick57, but they are no longer on the HBB.

Voz’s call for SKF at $40 together with me finding out that one of my collages, who I use as a contrarian indicator, is heavily buying into FAZ made me not to buy some SKF a couple of weeks ago. So, even though I do not understand everything voz says, it still saved me money. :)

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Comment by crazy frog
2009-05-06 20:51:44

Oh, and I should not forget get stucco. I search for his comments too. I can say I have learned a lot for the last 4 years lurking here, although it takes a lot of my time…

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-05-06 21:41:18

Don’t forget Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell has given a lot of free information, that is not hard to follow or understand.

It gets really interesting when FPSS and voz go a round or two.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-05-06 20:06:28

Cleveland – Workers at the largest financial institutions are on pace to earn as much money this year as they did before the economic collapse, according to a recent article in The New York Times. Goldman Sachs just set aside $4.7 billion for bonuses and compensation in the first quarter. And traders and investment bankers at JP Morgan Chase are projected to earn an average of over $500,000 this year.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 20:27:08

Financial Times
Gold sales cost Europe’s central banks $40bn
By Javier Blas in London
Published: May 6 2009 23:31 | Last updated: May 6 2009 23:31

Europe’s central banks are $40bn poorer than they might have been after they followed a British move taken 10 years ago on Thursday to shrink the Bank of England’s gold reserves, analysis by the Financial Times has shown.

London’s announcement on May 7 1999 that it would sell a large share of the Bank’s gold reserves in favour of assets offering a return, such as government bonds, was the high water mark of so-called “anti-gold” sentiment among European central banks.

GoldMany of these banks, such as those in France, Spain, the Netherlands and Portugal, decided later in 1999 to follow Britain and sell off their reserves. At that time, gold was worth around $280 an ounce, less than a third of its current level of more than $900.

European banks sold about 3,800 tonnes of gold, reaping about $56bn, according to calculations from official sales data and bullion prices.

Taking into account the likely returns from the investments in bonds, the banks have gained another $12bn. But because today’s gold prices are far higher, they are about $40bn poorer than if they had kept their reserves.

The biggest loser is the Swiss National Bank which sold 1,550 tonnes over the decade and at today’s gold prices is $19bn poorer, followed by the Bank of England, which is $5bn poorer.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 20:44:07

The Fed sees green shoots, and signs of a year-end recovery. Meanwhile, out in the real world, …

Wall Street Journal

* REAL ESTATE
* MAY 7, 2009

Deserted Building Sites Add to Property Bust’s Toll

By JIM CARLTON

TORRANCE, Calif. — After a cash-starved developer halted construction last November of an assisted-living center here, it left a hole in the hillside that neighbors say is loosing possibly contaminated dust on their homes.

Local authorities say they haven’t detected any pollution. But nearby residents, citing their own tests and some health problems, are calling for an independent investigation. Several trooped recently to City Hall, demanding action.

It’s another facet of the real-estate bust: Across the country, local authorities are facing a rise in complaints about environmental and safety hazards from construction sites where work has been frozen.

In the Phoenix area, where scores of unfinished condominiums and other projects dot the horizon, local officials report a surge in calls about increased dust and tumbleweeds from sites cleared of native foliage. In San Diego, a block of sidewalks was torn up for several months where construction of a 14-story residential tower was halted in early 2008.

View Full Image
Work halted in January on an assisted-living center in Torrance, Calif., shown here under construction last year.
Charles Bennett / Daily Breeze

Work halted in January on an assisted-living center in Torrance, Calif., shown here under construction last year.
Work halted in January on an assisted-living center in Torrance, Calif., shown here under construction last year.
Work halted in January on an assisted-living center in Torrance, Calif., shown here under construction last year.

On the Gulf Coast south of Sarasota, Fla., trash and other debris was blowing into Lemon Bay from an unfinished condominium project until local officials ordered a barrier fence put up in January. The four-story project of luxury condos had halted construction in late 2007, said Larry Bailie, a broker for the property.

There are so many abandoned work sites in Florida that some local entrepreneurs started a Web site, UnfinishedConstruction.com, to keep up with them all. The Web site’s latest tally: about 100 properties in Florida, most of them commercial.

“The complaint we hear the most about from these is the safety factor,” said John Rebimbas, a partner in the Naples, Fla., site, which also acts as a brokerage for people seeking to buy or sell unfinished projects, including the Lemon Bay site. “Sites are left unsecured, and that means kids can play on balconies with no railing.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 23:25:18

He says not to blame the bankers, but wasn’t it the lobbyists for the banks that used overwhelming force to destroy sound regulatory policy?

Wall Street Journal

* OPINION
* MAY 7, 2009

Capitalism in Crisis

It’s hard to run a safe banking system when the central bank is recklessly easy.

By RICHARD A. POSNER

The current economic crisis so far eclipses anything the American economy has undergone since the Great Depression that “recession” is too tepid a term to describe it. Its gravity is measured not by the unemployment rate but by the dizzying array of programs that the government is deploying and the staggering amounts of money that it is spending or pledging — almost $13 trillion in loans, other investments and guarantees — in an effort to avoid a repetition of the 1930s.

Much of this sum will not be spent (the guarantees), and probably most will eventually be recovered. But a commitment of such magnitude — stacked on top of enormous budget deficits enlarged by sharply falling federal-tax revenues — could lead to high inflation, greatly increased interest costs on a greatly increased national debt, much heavier taxes, the restructuring of major industries, and the redrawing of the line that separates business from government.

How did this happen? And what is to be done?

…let’s place the blame where it belongs. Not on the bankers, who are not responsible for assuring economic stability, but on the government officials who had that responsibility and failed to discharge it. They failed even to develop contingency plans to deal with what everyone knew could happen in a context of escalating housing prices (it had happened in Japan in the late 1980s and the 1990s). Lacking such plans, the government responded to the crisis with spasmodic improvisations, amplifying uncertainty and mistrust and thus retarding recovery.

And let’s not forget to apportion some of the blame to the influential economists who assured us that there could never be another depression. They argued that in the face of a recession the Federal Reserve had only to reduce interest rates and flood the banks with money and all would be well. If only.

Mr. Posner is a federal circuit judge and a senior lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School. He is the author of the just-published “A Failure of Capitalism: The Crisis of ‘08 and the Descent into Depression” (Harvard University Press).

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-06 23:28:31

Spoiler alert! Major banks in the Alt-A Bay Area appear to have failed their stress tests…

Major banks reportedly failed stress tests
James Temple, Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 6, 2009

The Bay Area’s three dominant banks reportedly need to inflate their capital cushion by a collective $54 billion after failing government stress tests, a requirement that threatens to tighten lending, undermine deposit growth and reduce the ownership stake of existing shareholders.

The stress tests were designed to evaluate the ability of the nation’s 19 largest banks to weather a deepening recession. Financial companies deemed likely to struggle for survival in that climate are being instructed to improve their capital positions as a buffer against possible escalating losses. Analysts expect that at least half of the banks tested will be asked to do so.

Wells Fargo & Co. of San Francisco is short by about $15 billion, Bank of America Corp. by around $34 billion and Citigroup Inc. by approximately $5 billion, Bloomberg News reported, citing people familiar with the tests. The banks all declined to comment.

Comment by combotechie
2009-05-07 05:08:37

My, what a surprise.

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-05-07 04:34:06

Up and at ‘em, Ben! No rest for the wicked!

 
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