The Housing Bubble

The problem is that part of the cover-up itself is making the whole financial system so complex that anyone that doesn’t have at least a 130 IQ and a related business degree is too “dim” to understand the implications.

It’s hard to protest when you don’t know exactly who or what to protest against.

I include myself in that dim-witted group BTW. I’ve tried educating myself on places like this HBB, and learned a lot, but still there’s so much that’s either too damn complex or just too behind-the-scenes to really know what’s truly going on, and therefore to find a reasonably-specific target to protest against.

Packman is right in that things are so complicated and complex, and non-transparent, that the average American has absolutely no way of understanding what is going on. It’s all behind closed doors, and on the down-low.

“It’s hard to protest when you don’t know exactly who or what to protest against.”

Good one.

BB, when you say, “It’s all behind closed doors, and on the down-low”, isn’t it really the opposite?

US Gov and most large corporations were at one time more or less comprised of a defined group of accountable leadership that, at the very least, understood and were responsible for the budget, base operations, deliverables and so forth of their group, department, division or company. Behind closed doors happened often.

Today’s new power centers are the efficiencies and speed of technology, software algorithms, and matrixed-to-the-max, multi-level work groups. Accountability is now spread across many, and the large sweeping winds of egalitarian groups and technology rule more today than a few old guys with cigars. Interesting last week when Obama said he was surprised how he had no power to get things done and that it was all about influencing a myriad of different groups (matrixes) at all different levels. Paraphrasing.

When people look back at the carnage of the stock market, out of control financial sectors and the housing bubble, technology’s ability to be inclusive and create a level playing field for many, it’s role in speed and decentralization of control and accountability, and the absence of laws and controls to meet those technology-based changes will take much of the blame. 1929 market crash happened right around a major change in the speed and ease of stock trading technology and inclusion of more people in the games. Gov responded with new rules in the most obvious offensives, and after a huge recession/depression, we moved on to bigger and better. Unfortunately, Gov does not just focus on new legislation and control, they spend valuable time, money, and resources trying to catch horses that have left the barn and make matters worse.

As we all say, the complexities are staggering and nowhere to point the fix-it-gun or even launch a protest.

Even more upsetting to me than the bank bailout, is the fact that none of the major players are being called to the carpet, or better yet arrested and prosecuted, for the crimes committed during this horrendous rip-off.

I can’t stand Ayn Rand. Boring. It’s more interesting to read about her than to read her.

I can’t stand Ayn Rand. Boring. It’s more interesting to read about her than to read her.

When I read ‘Atlas Shrugged’ I thought she was super wonderful. Of course, I was about 15 and going through that stage.
You know the stage I mean, where you go around wearing black turtlenecks and sit in your room listening to whiney androgenous boys singing on the radio about off*ing themselves, and moping around the house sighing theatrically, and then when no one listens, sighing again, louder and more theatrically, before going back to your room to write terrible poetry about how life is naught but a hollow blasted shell of doom and sorrow?
Thatstage.:roll:
Fortunately, I blew through that stage really fast. Whew!

Testing my eye-roll

My 16 year old god daughter says those types are called “Emos” now.

I thought they were called republicans now.

I thought they were called republicans now.

LOL - don’t let aladinsane hear you say that. His love for Rand is matched only by his hatred for Pubs.

Nice, but you dis the only book that reads like a map about today’s Washington events. Also you are making a futile attempt to disuade new young readers from seeing her ideas in A.S. If you can write something better, do so or go back to the peanut gallery. Some nerve. You probably feel so superior to make such peanut gallery attacks on a book that sold millions of copies.

You should write a book about your wit and wisdom. Only one page long I bet…

Also you are making a futile attempt to disuade new young readers from seeing her ideas in A.S.

Heckfire, nohow! I think it should be REQUIRED reading for all teens. I sincerely mean that. Along with Dune, Sylvia Plath’s poetry, H.P. Lovecraft, the Bible and a detailed manual on hormones and how you’ll learn to manage them someday, hopefully, and you won’t really go blind meanwhile.
The world would be a better place.

If you can write something better, do so or go back to the peanut gallery.

Okay, I accept your challenge. (giggle) Hmmm. Okay, here I go!

“Atlas Dropped the Thingie and Went to Have a Beer”
Chapter 1: There’s this, like, one guy who is smarter and more purposeful than eveyone else, and without flaw. He don’t even have a freakin’ re*ct*um, is how busy and how flawless he is, because having one of them would waste time, and also be a flaw. There’s all these other dingles running around trying to waste his time and getting in the way, who secretly hate him, because they lack merit and ambition and have re*ct*ums, but he just ignores them, because verily he is focused and stuff. He’s above that sort of stupidness. He wears a black turtleneck and he accidentally marries a dumb girl.

(That’s just the first chapter. I’ll write the next one after lunch.)

on a book that sold millions of copies.

Is that your criteria for greatness? Because so did ‘Monthly Doos: the 2009 Dog Poop Calendar’, and anything ever written by Jackie Collins.

Nice, but you dis the only book that reads like a map about today’s Washington events.

How is Atlas Shrugged about today’s Washington events? I thought Rand sang the praises of no government, which were the Washington events during Greenspan’s tenure. And now we see that the result of this Randian fantasy is a multi-trillion dollar version of the Invisible Hand conducting a larrge-scale Tragedy of the Commons. Which would be fine, except that in this country you get one vote per person, not one vote per dollar.

The Washington events of today involve borrowing money to replant the Commons, hopefully for the good of everyone. Not Randian at all.

“Atlas Dropped………”

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Too bad you missed episode 5 of “The Bubblefather” a few days ago. I think you would have appreciated it

Clemenza: “Leave the house……take the cannoli”.

How is Atlas Shrugged about today’s Washington events?

I’m guessing you haven’t read the book then? Atlas Shrugged isn’t simply a description of some utopia. It’s an illustration/story of what happens/goes wrong when the current course of action and policies are taken to their logical conclusion.

Do you really think there was no regulation during Greenspan’s tenure? No intervention by the government? Who appointed Greenspan? Who created the Federal Reserve? Who gives them the power to regulate/influence interest rates? Calling anything in the history of the US “free market capitalism” and then asserting that it hasn’t worked is a terrible straw man.

I went through my Ayn Rand stage also Olygal. Reminded me of some of the science fiction books I read.

Clemenza: “Leave the house……take the cannoli”.

Have I ever told you I do an AWESOME Clemenza? It is true, I do. Everytime I make spaghetti I do it Clemenza style ‘The secret is in the sugar…’
I don’t even care if there’s an audience, I do it for the style. And it always makes the spaghetti turn out better, somehow.

I went through my Ayn Rand stage also Olygal. Reminded me of some of the science fiction books I read.

Which ones are those you speak of, SanFran? I bet I read every science fiction book ever written in the world. Luckily most of them were lacking in that especially turgid, weighty, and humorless Randian sensibility…

(giggle. Okay, yes. I’m just tryin’ to start a flame, I admit it…I’ve had a particularly successful day today and it makes me feisty. )

Oly, that was the best reverse flame of the last three months. At least.

Now the workers get screwed by the companies, the government, and the unions. Used to be just two of them were putting the screws to you.

Somebody is always getting screwed… my point is that without strengthening the unions, labor in the US is destined to see continued weakness in wages and benefits while the investor class continues to grow their concentration of wealth. This isn’t some abstract problem to be dealt with some time in the future, but a reality for millions of workers today who have seen their jobs offshored or relocated to a more “business-friendly” state, usually in the South.

It goes to the root of our economy and the idea that we are a service-based economy. You can’t base an economy on selling “services” to each other. You produce something of value that the rest of the world needs (i.e. exports) and maintain a positive trade balance or you accumulate debt (until you can’t). The crux of the problem is labor vs. capital. Labor in this country has been severely weakened through “free-trade” while capital (and those that profit from it) have had free reign.

This is the “quality-of-life adjustment” we keep talking about. Unions, or any collective bargaining of labor, is the only way to ensure that the quality of life for the average American doesn’t decline to the point of Mexico or China while Wall St. continues to get rich off.

My point is that Unions no longer protect their employees. They exist to enrich Union Leaders by providing that illusion.

And tell me exactly how a union will keep a company from shipping jobs overseas? Seems to me like they’re a pretty good reason to do so.

Unions won’t break the financiers. Revolution might. I doubt that anything short of that will, as nobody seems to be willing to ‘vote the bums out’ without ‘voting the other bums in’ in this republic. Trust busting is required, and the UAW and Teamsters qualify as trusts as much as the wall street fat cats.

Unions provide an environment where those that can’t or won’t are protected. It provides no incentive for anyone to go above and beyond the bare minimum.

Someone tell me an industry that is heavily unionized that has prospered in the past 10-20 years. Auto? Airlines? Steel? How’d all that work out for you union members?

It’s working out fantastic. Dues were at an all time high in 2008.

Someone tell me an industry that is heavily unionized that has prospered in the past 10-20 years.

Government? Certainly that has prospered, and in many cases they’re heavily unionized.

Why buy ink cartridges when a new printer is the same price?

That is my model. I know it ain’t green, but for the same price as new cartridges every few years I get a new printer with better features.

I just send my prints to Costco when I want it printed on photo paper. It’s very cheap.

That is my model. I know it ain’t green, but for the same price as new cartridges every few years I get a new printer with better features.

This is true. And it aggravates the blazes out of me. I remember the day when I realized I could run the ink out of a little cheapo printer I got on sale for casual printing stuff, use it until the ink ran out, then unhook and toss the thing in the garbage and go get another one for cheaper than buying replacement cartridges. How mad I was.
What is WRONG with this picture?! So to speak?!

You can also buy the ink cartridges refill kits or take them to your local drug store and pay to have them refill your ink cartridges.

This is a great reason for renting - if you don’t like the neighbors, it’s easy to pack up and move…

This is a great reason for renting - if you don’t like the neighbors, it’s easy to pack up and move…

What, like to the presence of a newer, fresher, slightly different a*ss*hole neighbor?
Look, the best answer here is to run away into the woods to live, like me. Plus, then you can grow a foot-long beard, and experiment with botanicals, and build a still, and listen to frogs all night, and hang out with Bigfoot, and when you get home from work only wear clothes when and if you feel like it, weather permitting, like me.*

*Except for the foot-long beard part. That was a test of your reading comprehension. Also, I don’t have the whole still fully assembled yet. I think I’m missing some vital parts. It was from a garage sale.

A day without pants is a great day!

Yer like a philosopher, there, Mr. Bubble!

RE: *Except for the foot-long beard part

I’m glad you aterisked.

The mental image of beards and female nakedness was causing me real problems!

I had a neighbor who took OUT every single tree in his yard… in a land where 100 F summers are normal.

Ecofeco, that reminds me of Mr. T, who bought a piece of property in tony Lake Forest, IL and proceeded to cut down every tree, ostensibly because of his allergies.

That prompted a bunch of towns to pass ordinances requiring permits to cut down a tree on your own property.

“…pass ordinances requiring permits to cut down a tree on your own property.”

The irony in this statement is awfully intense.

Really?! Well! My adoration and love of Mr. T is hereby declared COMPLETELY OVER!
Soon as I get the chance, I’m gonna kick down the shrine I built to him, is how over him I now am.

The irony in this statement is awfully intense.

Yes, property rights at their finest. Ugh.

Property rights are going by the wayside. E.g. in DC they’re now giving people parking tickets for parking in their own driveway.

Yes, we have Tree Nazis in these parts. Please, please consider that a Seinfeld reference and NOT a Holocaust one, OK?

It’s too bad that while regulating the flora and fauna, many town councils have given a free pass to people wanting to build oversized starter castles on small suburban lots. But that, of course, is all about the property taxes.

“Really?! Well! My adoration and love of Mr. T is hereby declared COMPLETELY OVER!”

Hmm, it sounds like you pity the fool.

Now you know how those crazy regulations get passed in the first place.

Some dumb person goes and messes it up for everybody else.

And WOW! Mr. T cut down his trees? Dang.

San Jose has a “city arborist” who runs a scam. He drives around neighborhoods and tags trees that are “not on the approved list”. You will be fined for having such and must replace it with one on the “approved list”.

Oh yeah, you also have to pay $$$ for a permit to remove said tree prior to planting a new one. The arborist’s condemnation notice may not be used in lieu of a permit.

Hmm, it sounds like you pity the fool.

There are dwarf lilacs that should be OK in a large planter for a while. Then you can plant them near the real lilacs when you buy a place and have multiple levels of lilacs.

do you think they’ll live in a large pot for a few years before I get to plant it (I’m still renting)?

They’re pretty tough, Claire. When I used to go out looking around in ghost towns and for old homesteads in southern Utarr, often times I would encounter some long-abandoned homestead, sometimes nothing more than rubbley foundation and some glass winking in the sun and there, by where the front door had been long ago, would be standing a gnarled, twisted, sturdy lilac bush.
This is southern Utarr, red-rocks, no rain country, btw. And yet there would be a lilac, growing anyway, by G*od! Undaunted, and if in lilac season, breathing forth glorious perfume onto the hot wind.

Go get a lilac, is what I’m saying, quickly!

Indeed, other some key items like milk I haven’t seen many price drops at either the grocery store or Sam’s Club.

Its certainly not potato chips. Are they sprinkling gold dust on ‘em or something?

Oooh! ‘Gold dust n’ vinegar’ chips!
I’d buy ‘em. As long as they sparkled prettily in the sunlight, like on a picnic.

Vinegar chips are the best. MMMMM good.

Vinegar chips are the best. MMMMM good.

I always thought so, too. But see, SanFran, we never had gold and vinegar chips. I bet we’d like them even more!

—Did I ever tell you how I gilded apples one time? It was all mythic, entirely edible, and pretty as blazes, too.

I live in southwest colorado. It -seems- that meat is cheaper. Produce is definitely quite a bit cheaper. Living in a remote area, I shop about once every three weeks to a month, so mostly I’m just looking at my total outlay on groceries.

Maybe I overstated the drop. I should look at the books for the real numbers.

Still, that’s nice. Good for you.

In NYC there is a real variation in grocery prices depending upon the neighborhood. Manhattan is of course pricier, but even in the boroughs there is difference that I’m not entirely sure is rent based…

For example, in my Astoria (Queens) Key Food a package of ground turkey is consistently $3.99, in nearby Greenpoint (Brooklyn) it is always $4.99. (Checked this several times over the last few months) Similar variations for some other basics, not gourmet goodies.

Feels like a bit of a premium for the hipsters…

PB,

Point taken, but I’ll take it a step further. Like anyone here that rifles through RE listings, be it on C/L or whatever, at some point, the sheer -volume- of vacant homes for sale is… just staggering.

You can’t spend more than 5 seconds per post and unless there’s something truly unique ( like a Liberache inspired decor? ) you’re moving on! Ultimately it dawns on you that ‘in’ an efficient market, the bulk of these property’s value is essentially, “0″.

Don’t forget the benefit on the pension side as increased mortality reduces pension payouts.

Its a win-win.

Bankruptcy will allow GM to void its contracts and get rid of health care for those pesky blue-collar retirees…

“Bankruptcy will allow GM to void its contracts and get rid of health care for those pesky blue-collar retirees…”

When pigs fly. There are too many votes tied up in those blue collars to let that happen.

Why do you think the UAW is getting such a huge stake, when they’re the ones who have driven these companies into the ground? It’s down to the very simplest and oldest political principle - vote payback.

Ah the hoary old “unions bad” argument.

Did the unions design and engineer the cars?

Did the unions decide on customer service?

Did the unions decide how to loan to the customers?

Did the unions make the deals with the dealerships?

Did the unions decide on the gas mileage of the cars?

Did you know it takes only 30 hours to build a modern car? (google it) If you paid the line worker $60hr in wages AND benefits, that’s only $1800 per car. Where’s the other +/-$20,000 DOLLARS going?

Yeah, it’s the unions.

ecofeco, you forget materials costs, costs of running the machinery, R&D, etc.

Plus, if you include pensions, l-t health care, etc, I highly doubt the wages + benefits add up to only $60/hr.

Okay, maybe we don’t say “unions are bad”, but I certainly think it’s time for everyone to be responsible for themselves in areas such as healthcare and retirement. Pensions + healthcare in retirement is costly. Especially with people living longer. As a 401k person, I am entirely screwed if I don’t pay attention to my portfolio and plan for the future. It makes me feel, sometimes, as though my value on this planet is sub-par to anyone who gets a guaranteed income in retirement and is that really the case? Did I contribute so much less to the world than a auto assembly line worker? Or a school teacher? Really?

I think everybody should work for minimum wage, have no health insurance or retirement benefits. That is the only way America will be great again!

You realize that if when GM removes retiree medical, the retirees over 65 are then covered by Medicare right?

drumminj, you are correct that I did not include materials. I was unable to find that information. But I was addressing only the cost of union assembly line labor, not the total cost.

The $60 per hour does include health and pension though it only represents an average.

The cost of R&D, subcontractors,suppliers, management, sales and profit are not without consideration, but to blame union labor as the sole cause of the automakers problem is disingenuous at best, when the real problem lies in demand and product quality.

And solely in demand and product quality.

Anyway, good point drumminj. Thanks for bringing that up.

eastcoaster, I agree as well and most people I know think the same way. But not everyone has those opportunities or money to do so, even people who want to and would if they could.

There is a long history behind pensions. They were once only for the upper class. They were instituted for J6P when it was realized that it was cheaper to give them pensions than have them rely on government services in their old age. It was also a way to make extremely unattractive (and that’s putting it nicely) work, attractive and retain people who would otherwise seek better conditions, thus creating too much churn in the labor market and leaving needed, but unhealthy and dangerous, manufacturing with ever rising labor cost and missed delivery schedules. Yes, worse than we’ve ever seen.

401Ks have turned out not to be very good, have they? No matter how well you manage your portfolio, you can still be blindsided and many smart folks I know were. Many people also don’t have the time to manage their portfolios. They really don’t. Life isn’t so neat orderly as we would like, is it? Then there are the people who can’t afford a 410K. What should they do? Kindly die at retirement age?

Yes, pensions and healthcare ARE costly. But that’s due to inflation. Wait, that’s wrong, it’s due entirely to GREED by health insurers. You want to blame someone, there’s your boys. It’s health insurers that have raised the cost of health care and this impacts directly on pensions.

So eastcoaster, you can do all the right things and try to be a stand-up person, (and J6P tries as well), but the world often has other plans.. and they aren’t nice ones.

The retiree benefits the GM white collar people are losing are the prescriptions, dental, optical and other things that Medicare does NOT cover.

I know because my dad worked for GM, and we went through a VERY stressful end of 2008 trying to figure out how to get my mother proper coverage for those things.

Seeing your 88 year old mother in tears because she doesn’t know if she’s going to be able to get the medicines she needs at an affordable cost is NOT fun.

Did you know it takes only 30 hours to build a modern car?

It takes 30 hours to assemble a car. It takes way, way more to build the components - most of which are done by union labor.

Being that your base premise is way off - maybe try again.

Job Bank.

“…..demand and product quality….”

Which gets back to costs.

I would love to buy a new Dodge Challenger, but I don’t love it enough to pay a 10 grand premium over a Mustang GT. Nevermind the fact that there is a very good chance that there won’t be parts to fix it in five years.

(One of the stories making the airwaves today is the pi$$ing contest between Delphi and GM……..seems that Delphi doesn’t want to ship GM parts anymore, so AC-Delco parts are going to be centrally rationed, and the rebuild pool is going to be expanded, even for WARRANTY PARTS……..ahhhh, those unintended consequences……)

And, I don’t love the Mustang GT enough to pay $30K bucks for it. Not when you can buy a 4-5 year old Corvette for less than that.

All of the car manufacturers were operating under a “mini-bubble”, selling overpriced cars using cheap financing, to people that really couldn’t afford them.

Everybody in the aerospace workforce has been doing “give-backs” for the past 25 years. It sucked, and still does, but the US aerospace industry is still globally competative. (unless you prefer having your airliner inspected by unmonitored Central American, Korean and Chinese repair shops)

The UAW, on the other hand, fought all this stuff to the bitter end.

Like many on this blog who refuse to pay a bubble-inflated price for a house to fund someone else’s retirement, I’m not paying an inflated price for a new car, just to fund benefits and retirement for UAW people that have a LOT BETTER benefits than I do.

With my “rotation policy”, I used to buy a new car every four years, or thereabouts. That policy ended in 2002.

“Where’s the other +/-$20,000 DOLLARS going?”

They’re going to CEO bonuses and to the bureaucracy.

Large corporations are about 10% productive work, 90% bureaucracy and internal politics.

Second tier suppliers furnish the OEM parts - no unionized workers THERE! At Will jobbers! Their parts arrive Just-in-Time, so the rail, truckers, cargo ships take their cut. The old line workers (UAW) earned $20+/hour, so that $60 includes the benefit package, which most do not use (mental & legal services, tuition assistance for the worker only). Newbies make less and get reduced benefits, if they haven’t been laid off, already!
GM is not shaving the low level salary employees (bosses) to match the attrition that those Buyouts caused. They are hungry for the cheaper contracted kids to work dumber and harder, for less overall. No way they could afford to buy what they build, anymore, unless they live in the family compound/commune, like their parent’s house?

RE: I would love to buy a new Dodge Challenger, but I don’t love it enough to pay a 10 grand premium over a Mustang GT. Nevermind the fact that there is a very good chance that there won’t be parts to fix it in five years.

Gulfie

Spot on to all your observations.

Small block 8’s paired RWD were always synomous with the best of Detroit’s historical offerings. The inability of the Big3 to evolve this motor design to contemporary demand is pathetic

Why the hell they went almost exclusively to traverse mounted 6’s with FWD linked to dogcrap auto trans in shit like Caravan’s, K-cars, W-bodies, et. el. is beyond me.

The muscle cars were always the way the Big 3 brought in younger purchasers who in days past, tended to stayed loyal to the company which they grew up with.

Ford stayed true with it’s Mustang, but GM & Chrysler went uptown with their high priced Vettes and Viper, and lost the younger crowd to the Jap throwaways.

Seen the new Camaro? It’s like a 3/4 version, with a $40k+ tag for the V8.

Too late the messenger.

All, very, very sad.

Incorrect packman. That 30 hours includes more than assembly.

Again, I’m not addressing any other costs other the company line workers. The argument was, and continues to be, that the company union is the cause of the Big 3’s problems when plainly, that is a LIE.

Oh I’m quite sure that the unions weren’t the cause of the Big 3’s problems - but they certainly were a cause. Very similar to how Alan Greenspan wasn’t the cause of the housing bubble, but most definitely was a cause.

FWIW - even union workers themselves find union labor too expensive. How’s that for irony?

Being that you apparently are a union member, or perhaps have some other vested interest - I’ll say this - I have no problem with union members - who in general I think are really good people. What I have a problem with is the concept itself, and also the how its apparent intent is bastardized. Much like many government policies - it’s viewed as having good intentions in many peoples’ eyes, but in reality has a very bad core, usually created and forwarded by those with an agenda that don’t match the publicly-presented good intentions.

But let’s run some tests and establish some outcomes so we can write up some good lilac/blasphemy guidelines.

I imagine, and this is of course just a preliminary draft hypothesis (but I do have quite a talent for cussing, so this is an informed expert hypothesis.)
Anyway, I imagine that your newfangled double-bloom lilac varieties might produce a 25′ or so blasphemy buffer, so you couldn’t get tooooo excited with the naughty shouts, although it’d still be better than, say, arbor vitae or honeysuckle at filtering out blasphemy.

But then think of what a giant cluster of old heirloom lilacs, laden down with fragrant clusters, swaying in the warm spring wind, would produce! A 75′ to 100′ buffer easy!
Man! You could walk to the middle and totally get out of hand just a cussin’ away! In Sanskrit! Even before lunch! Then, when you was all wore out with wickedness, you could have a nap, a glorious nap, in a fragrant nest of lilacs…

Man. It’s like Heaven, thinking of it.

I always replace the ‘i’ with an ‘a’ when talking about that stupid site.

I’ve read about it, including in Newsweek’s death knell editorial ( really pathetic, that ), but I have no idea what “twittering” actually entails, unless it’s little birds singing in a Disney classic. Can anyone fill me in without being too sarcastic about my lack of knowledge ? What the h-e-double hockey sticks goes on when one twitters ?

It’s a website where you can type in tiny little updates (140 characters max, I believe) that can get sent to anybody who subscribes to your twitter feed. And you can get your tweets on cell phones, e-mails, rss feeds, etc. So any number of ways.

So, say you like Ryan Seacrest. You subscribe to his twitter feed on your cell phone and several times a day you get a text message from him saying things like “At spa getting back waxed” or “At hairstylist getting highlights put in” or “I can’t take this shell of a life anymore, goodbye world!”

And then you feel cool because you know that Ryan is getting his back waxed.

That’s it. That’s all. Nothing else to it.

Go to the site or better yet, look it on Wikipedia.com.

What the h-e-double hockey sticks goes on when one twitters ?

It’s when you rapid-fire little jabbers of text into the ether, to this-and-that-and-the-other source.
And you know what? I’ve never done it either, although many of the people I know have and do and I’ve observed the process. It’s supposed to keep you very connected and informed; although I think it’s just a good way to crash your car and waste your time.

See, I consider that when IIIII want to jabber inconsequentially, I’ll just do it outta my head with sound-waves.
(Or I’ll come on Ben’s Blog and do it that way. Hahahaah!)

A picture that’s worth a thousand words.

“…..Camaro production graph”.

Did you happen to see the web story about the “dealer markups” on the new Camaro?

-$5000 “adjusted market value”

-$999 for “Nitrogen for Life” in the tires.

Hint to the Housing Bloggers: Nitrogen servicing of tires and pressure cylinders is neccesary in aviation, especially in aircraft that fly at high altitude. (the reason dry nitrogen was invented to begin with). You can make the argument that it is neccesary in race car tires, due to it’s better stability.

Using nitrogen in your typical passenger car/truck is a TOTAL waste of money, and an even bigger ripoff than “paint protection coatings”. If you can’t live without nitrogen in your tires, go to any welding supply place, rent a cylinder, buy a cheap regulator, and have the cylinder filled with a lifetime supply for all your vehicles……the nitrogen itself is about $60 bucks.

Have something of a soft spot for the Camaro because I worked in a GM factory one summer sanding Camaro and Firebird shells when they came out of hot prime oven.
Appreciate the tip on nitrogen ripoff.
Wife bought a set (4) of tires just yesterday. $1,200. Eeek. Run-flats.

“Wife bought a set (4) of tires just yesterday. $1,200. Eeek. Run-flats.”

I bought tires for my camaro in March and paid the same price for them as you. Not much deflation in the price those tires.

Costco (and I believe Sam’s Club as well) put in dry nitrogen gratis when you buy tires there. And it’s a cheap place to get tires. Look for the green valve-stem caps they put on tires they have serviced.

“….60 bucks”

To clarify……..a full cylinder (enough to fill all your tires for many years), less the cylinder rental and whatever regulator and hose you get, costs about 60 bucks.

The ones I use on the airplane last over two years……including servicing tires, blowdown cylinders and accumulators.

Also…..hd74man recommendation is a good one; if you can afford Mobil 1, use it, especially if you have to park the car/truck outside in below zero temps. Try to find someplace that sells in bulk.

“We are in full-on “Weekend at Bernie’s” mode now.”

Lol

Night of the Living Dead

“I wouldn’t go over there ma’am. They’re… they’re all messed up.”

Earth shattering revelations! How did we ever live without this data?!

(thanks for the heads-up milkcrate)

Are you serious? Wow. Got a link perhaps to where that info is from? Thanks.

Er, guys/gals:
I made that stuff up.
To illustrate (not very well, I spose) the extent of some of the meaningless work that agency does do.
I read many Census reports as a MSM member.
(ducks for cover.)

Clarifying… MSM is no longer my trade.

I’d love for someone to do some research on how many people are employed doing “make-work” research for the government.

Like the scientists working “general research” where they cannot illustrate any practical application for the research, other than “…..well, the human race has always strived for knowledge……”

(Great…….then why isn’t the government running People Magazine and “TMZ”???…)

Or the research that quantifies the obvious…….like the study that says girls get knocked up at the home at a higher rate when the parents are at work, vs. when mom and dad are at the house.

Or milkcrate’s tattoo study……….the reason it fooled people is that people believe that this is the kind of stupid crap that our government would actually spend money on.

Shame on you milkcrate.

It was funny, but dang, a little more, er, qualification next time, alright?

okie dokie

Something like that is a chance to play hardball with the seller if you don’t really NEED a big shop. Try finding out what one of those nearly instant instant giant steel sheds-on-a-slab costs. That gives you an idea what unfinished square footage can cost out as.

I dream of something like that. Inground pool, huge garage, reasonable house. A friend has a 30×50 steel building (said if he were to do it again he’d go stick built but I still dig it). Said the concrete slab was a huge cost. You can get quotes online for the building part, they weren’t that expensive when you compare to what people are asking for dumpy townhouses in my area.

And heating/cooling those things can be expensive enough that they’re essentially occupiable only part of the year. OTOH unheated/unAC’ed space is sometimes treated preferentially treated for tax assesments. But my point is that you should indicate an unwillingness to pay more than it would cost to throw up one of those prefabs. Even if zoning would make new construction of that kind impossible. Don’t let the seller know how much you want it.

A few years ago (back when the contractors had more work than time), one of my buddies put up a stick-built, detached, 30×30 or thereabouts oversized (w/heat and central air, but no water service) garage/gearhead man-cave. Don’t know what he paid, but I know one quote he got was for 50 grand.

I wonder what kind of bids he would get now?

“over the lives of about 350K retirees and spouses.”
Jeff, Wouldn’t they only need coverage from retirement through Medicare eligibility?

That’s not how old-fasioned health care worked. My dad retired from AT&T in 1978 back when it was a unitary company. He got a gold-plated fee-for-services healthcare plan that covered him until he died at age 83.

Retiree health becomes the “medigap” insurance for people who age into medicare. At least, that is the way it works for my parents. Medicare is the primary. The HP (who purchased Compaq who purchased DEC) retiree program is the secondary. My dad also gets some care through the VA, but not that is very minor.

OK Job Bank

Why don’t they lower their prices on cars?

Yep…I am in the market for two new cars but they will not negotiate very much on the price…

Yes, but most people could hold on to their cars a year or two longer than they did during the HELOC orgy. Add to this the reduced need for new contractor trucks and sales could be down for years.

Skip,

My sentiments exactly. Besides, dumping product ( as you note w/ 0% financing yada yada ) is what crushed the re-sale market and planted their recent buyers so up-side-down there was no WAY they’d be able to trade in/up etc.

Of late, I’m spending more time tracking autos than dog goned houses. ( At least there’s some action there? )

Skip:

Do you really have to drive that many miles anymore?

Are people really going to do a 100 mile round trip to a job everyday… Or will they move closer and spend a little more on rent?

I miss the old days when people like me used to drive cross country just to see America….

I big reason i stay in NYC is my GF is a city girl and never drove in her life, so moving to a smaller place would be a major lifestyle change and what we save in rent etc would be eaten up with a second car and high insurance for a new driver……

But she in not so opposed to it as before this mess hit

———————————————————
Cars are just not made well enough to last 150k miles

RE: Cars are just not made well enough to last 150k miles and repair costs are expensive.

1998 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP-192,000 miles
1988 Ford Mustang GT-172,000 miles

Mobil 1 Oil & regular maintenance.

Still humpin’…

aNYCdj I don’t think its necessarily the long commute that eats up all the miles, but the jumping in your car 3 or 4 times a day to drive everywhere else.

hd74man I will trade you for my ‘86 Pontiac Fiero that exploded its engine with 20k miles on it and my ‘91 Ford Cougar that blew the engine, transmission, and air conditioner -the final straw was when the ignition on my steering column caught on fire one morning as I started the car.

1991 toyota tercel, 205,000 miles. oil, gas, tires. my first and only new vehicle. still gets 40+mpg

Plus without funny money from HELOCS those future purchases will be much more modest, as in entry level Korean cars and the soon to arrive deluge of even cheaper Chineses cars.

That is part of the problem, the quality of the cars coming off the line is much improved and you can easily get 100-150K off most models without much worry.

So if you do the oil changes, you’re prudent and fiscally responsible, you’ve got a car for a nice long time. Good for you, not so good for the auto industry. They had a few stories in the MSM a few weeks ago how the average age of the car on the road has been steadily climbing.

Swedish tank with 300K miles, here. Waiting for new technologies, otherwise why bother. Oil changes every 3K and lots of highway miles. Cars are such a waste of money.

hd74man-
Nice to read that post about your American cars holding up so well. We own a Vette. (not a chick car-his)

That is part of the problem, the quality of the cars coming off the line is much improved and you can easily get 100-150K off most models without much worry.

Don’t mention this to the powers that be… they will force us to buy new cars every three or four years through legislation, similar to what Japan implemented… Known as “shaken” in Japanese. This bi-yearly inspection and component replacement regime also includes mandatory liability insurance, weight tax, vehicle tax and can cost upwards of $1,500 US. New vehicles depreciate at a considerably faster rate than in other countries, and beyond a certain mileage (50,000 miles/85,000 km) it becomes economically prohibitive to renew the “shaken,” as the resale values approach residual.

RE: We own a Vette…

The C5 & C6 Chevrolet Corvette exemplify what GM could be. No matter what car rag you read, the new
Corvette’s compete mightily with exotic foreign jobs costing 4X as much. In my eyes a newer model 6sp ‘Vette is King of the Highway.

I have purchased Fords, a GM, and a couple of US produced VW GTi’s in my lifetime.

I always did my research and bought the right size motor hooked up with the appropriate transmission.

As a curmudgeonly cynic I have virtually no complaints.

All vehicles served me well. However, I will add I’m an anal type when it comes to maintenance.

The state of the Big 3 distresses me greatly.

RE: Cars are just not made well enough to last 150k miles and repair costs are expensive.

————————-
Agree with repair costs are expensive part, but disagree with the ‘cars are not made well enough part’. Any decent car today will last 150k, no problemo. That includes GMs and Ford, as well as Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan.

Mazda pickup 4 cyl. 1972, with over 100,000 miles. Bought it used in 1977, added another 150,000 miles.

1980 Pontiac Sunbird, bought new. 250,000 miles. Body frame was damaged in 1992. Donated car to charity.

1982 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Station Wagon. Bought used. Original owner had put over 250,000 miles on original engine. Took great care of this car. When I bought it form the original owner he had put in a second engine. I bought the car in 2003 and now has over 150,000 miles on the second engine. Love this car. Unfortunately parts are almost impossible to find now. Certain things I’ve had repaired because of age, wear and tear.

RE: hd74man I will trade you for my ‘86 Pontiac Fiero that exploded its engine with 20k miles on it and my ‘91 Ford Cougar that blew the engine, transmission, and air conditioner -the final straw was when the ignition on my steering column caught on fire one morning as I started the car.

Sorry Skip…

But buyin’ Detroit iron has always been kinda like a game of Russian Roulette.

Spin wrong and it’s light’s out for you.

-the final straw was when the ignition on my steering column caught on fire one morning as I started the car.

How did you put it out? I didn’t heed your discussion of brand names, because I cannot recall brand names; it’s a mental hiccup thingie. But I recall when the jeep lit on fire long ago on a camping trip, so I’m curious about your response.

Back in the day, I used to deliver pizza at night and had a spotlight. The light had a short in it and one night I guess it went out and I just set it facedown (light facing into the bench seat).

The next day I went to class and when I got out of class and got back to my truck, the inside of the truck was filled with a yellow, noxious looking smoke. Evidently the short had resolved itself while I was in class and I had, the night before, made the mistake of leaving the light plugged in and turned on.

I just closed the door and started walking to some nearby apartments (took me, maybe 20 mins). Knocked on the door of some girls I knew there and asked if they could take me to the grocery store.

So I bought like 6 gallons of water, and they drove me back to my truck where I poored the water on the seat to put out the smoldering.

Pretty much the entire cushion had been turned to char. I drove home trying to see over the steering wheel.

Olygal, don’t you have to be SOMEWHERE ?

Shoots, no. They’re all gonna fly on over for a slumber-party this weekend! Gonna show ‘em froggie hospitality Olympia-style.

‘I’ve often wondered where this magic 3X income comes from?..3X income, 120X rent, mortgage payments 30% of income, etc. Who came up with these numbers? They seem to have taken a life of their own, especially at HBB.’

These are historical averages, dating way back. You see, housing prices, rents and the relation to incomes have been fairly stable for centuries. So when these got out of whack, it should have set off alarm bells at every level.

And it is up to the buyer to decide what the price is. They are the market. If it’s too high, you buy less or none at all, which affects the supply, and prices adjust accordingly. Outside of financial manias, of course, which are rare and relatively brief.

A life of their own? I’ve been watching you go on about Bill Clinton, etc, for a few days. So tell me, are you a troll?

Perhaps not, but there are partisan hacks everywhere who listen to Limbaugh/Savage/Rhodes/Malloy who need to have their thinking readjusted. They do not (yet) realize that it is the system that is rotten to the core.

While I agree with the 3X income being a “historical norm”, did they really have mortgages centuries ago? I’m honestly ignorant of this..I would imagine ‘yes’, but at the same point in time, that seems so….long ago

I know they had mortgages in colonial times, but they were mighty uncommon and sometimes were considered shameful.

Post said trolls IP.

I’m a troll because I mentioned Clinton? OK, sorry to share an opinion. I’ll leave those to the “Bu$hco Cheneyburton” comments which are thoughtful political discourse.

I did say Clinton, etc. If you are just here to get people worked up about nothing you are a troll. Trolls don’t last long around here.

Trolls don’t last long around here.

And that’s just too bad, because we have a sad scarcity of them lately.
Jeeze, I’m about ready to HIRE someone to log on and be a troll, just to delight everyone.

Good riddance…….. troll.

Trolls don’t last long around here.

Yeah I notice that one in particular seems to be absent today.

Troll? I thought he just lived in a fantasy world. Do they teach critical thinking in school anymore?

FDR was the master of this type of double-speak. He would crucify people who “hoarded” gold, as if this practice was somehow responsible for high unemployment.

Well you didn’t answer my exact question - what book to read - but you started me off in the right direction.

Apparently bonds don’t pay compound interest on the IOU, only simple interest.

One of my banks - Zions Bank - sent me an email today about an offer of 1 year bonds at 5.5% interest. That short-term rate sounds interesting to me, so long as Zions is solvent. The hassle however is that they are holding an “auction” for the bonds and make you bid for them.

Olygal may not approve - Zions Bank once was the official bank of the LDS church.

Link here.

https://www.auctions.zionsdirect.com/auction/656/summary?utm_source=zions%2Bbank%20house%20list&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=senior%2Bnote%20auction

Olygal may not approve - Zions Bank once was the official bank of the LDS church.

And until last month, that’s where I had much of my savings. I clung too long, from pure nostalgia. It was actually a wrench to leave. Funny, huh?
Because I opened my first savings account at the little local brick-front branch when I was 11 years old…I remember the day. I was banking baby-sitting money, and saving up for winter shoes, and wanted to put it where no one could get it.

Hmmm. Some kinds of nostalgia are not so fun as the ‘remembering the lilacs’ kind.

P.P.S. You can pretty much lump all assets that are not cash into the category of “bonds” — that is, some kind of promise to pay you something of value in the future in exchange for money you hand over today.

Interesting way of putting it, PB/GS. “Something of value” is a pretty…sketchy phrase. You’re not necessarily getting something of value - you’re getting fiat value in return for whatever you hand over today, no?

Bonds aren’t paid in toilet paper, cigarettes, or booze, are they? It’s very possible that the fiat you are paid in return is of little value compared to what you gave them at the beginning.

K…something to make a note of. “Toilet Paper” is not one of the flagged phrases that puts a post into limbo…

“Bonds aren’t paid in toilet paper, cigarettes, or booze, are they? It’s very possible that the fiat you are paid in return is of little value compared to what you gave them at the beginning.”

If investors are afraid of this scenario, then yields will shoot through the roof — like the 14 pct or so that l-t T-bonds were paying back around 1980. Unless there is an 800 lb gorilla investor of last resort keeping a lid on yields, that is…

okay, I might’ve been drinking a little bit tonight, but thanks for the laugh, corny as it may have been