It Went Far, It Went Fast, Then It Stopped
The Bozeman Daily Chronicle reports from Montana. “Yellowstone Club attorneys grilled a Credit Suisse officer Tuesday about why the international lending group didn’t unearth financial vulnerabilities before facilitating a $375-million loan with the resort. In addition to the Yellowstone Club deal, which a group of club creditors maintains triggered the private ski resort’s bankruptcy, international lending consortium Credit Suisse financed several other projects across the West, including Lake Las Vegas, Promontory and Turtle Bay, that went into default. There was no way to foreshadow the club’s financial ailments, said Credit Suisse senior credit officer, Steven Yankauer, during testimony. When Credit Suisse pitched the loan to former club owner Tim Blixseth in 2004, the deal was so appealing that investors rushed to plunk cash into the club.”
“‘The market demand was such there were effectively lenders clamoring,’ he said. ‘For every dollar of the loan there was four dollars of demand. Capital was extremely free flowing and available.’”
“But Yellowstone Club and creditor’s committee attorneys argue the lending consortium was so focused on reaping financial rewards, that they ignored financial warning signs. Working to prove this point, Yellowstone Club attorney Troy Greenfield pointed to a Credit Suisse internal memo warning employees to keep investors satisfied, because if a deal went bad, ‘our gravy train will stop.’”
“‘Credit Suisse’s gravy train stopped?’ Greenfield asked Yankauer. To which Yankauer replied, ‘I think the entire economy’s gravy train stopped.’”
The Idaho Statesman. “In the last days of the First Bank of Idaho, bank officials thought the 12-year-old institution might be spared. But nervous depositors were taking their money elsewhere. Regulators weren’t convinced investors would give First Bank a cash infusion quickly enough to keep it from running out of cash by the end of April.”
“Putting First Bank of Idaho into receivership was an ignominious end for a dream that came true for Greg Lovell, an Idaho native. Lovell thought he saw a niche for home-town banks in resort communities. First Bank didn’t make subprime loans. But its loan portfolio was heavy in residential construction and commercial development, mostly in resort communities, including Ketchum and Jackson. Those loans were particularly vulnerable to the national housing slump and the recession’s impact on business expansion.”
“The drip of troubled loans become a torrent when the decline in the real estate market accelerated in the last few months of 2008. ‘As the economic situation got worse, more and more of our real estate loans became nonperforming,’ said Everett Covington, who was CEO when First Bank went into receivership. ‘People couldn’t pay.’”
The Durango Telegraph. “‘There were difficult loans across the board, but the Teton Valley was definitely a major problem for this bank,’ Everett Covington, CEO of the First Bank of Idaho, said. He told the Idaho Mountain Express that real estate sales in Victor and Driggs were nearly nonexistent, and foreclosure proceedings had begun on many properties.”
“‘The bank’s story is entwined with a booming national economy and people investing in vacation homes all over the West. It’s the story of how a banking system became engulfed by a speculative market in which eye-popping growth ultimately could not be sustained,’ said the newspaper.”
“‘The phenomenon transformed small towns into bustling boomtowns. It made savers look silly and speculative spenders look like geniuses. Lasting more than a decade, it looked like it might never end,’ the Express continued.”
“‘It went far, it went fast. Then, like a car hitting the proverbial brick wall, it stopped.’”
Boise Weekly from Idaho. “Next week, amid cars circling for parking spots and bikes weaving around packs of strolling pedestrians, something new will roll into BoDo—moving vans. The Aspen Lofts, Scott Kimball’s prism-faced 17-story mixed-use condo complex, will finally open its doors to downtown’s newest urban residents.”
“‘We just finally got our certificate of occupancy,’ said Beth Gregg, director of marketing and sales. ‘We’ll have probably four residents living there … We’ve got one on five, one on six and then two on the ninth floor. For a while, they’ll be Lone Rangers there.’”
“Though the economy has made it difficult for many to obtain loans for more reasonably priced workforce housing, downtown real estate agents and developers have faith that will change. Though both Dana Wendland, a CitySide Lofts condo renter who also owns the downtown shoe store SoleMates, and CitySide lofts resident Al Greenberg, acknowledge that late-night noise is part of the urban package, the city’s downtown task force has formed a special noise ordinance subcommittee to tackle any noise complaint issues. ”
“‘People move to a downtown core knowing it’s going to be more vibrant and knowing that there’s going to be more to do. At the same time … at 3 a.m., you don’t necessarily want to hear people banging on your trash cans,’ said Cece Gassner, assistant to the mayor for economic development.”
The Bellingham Herald from Washington. “According to the Northwest MLS, Whatcom County had 240 pending home sales in April, up 17 percent compared to the same month last year. Completed sales were down, however: 144 homes were sold in April by real estate agents, down 15 percent year over year. The median price for the homes sold in April was $260,500, down from $280,000 in April 2008.”
“April also saw an increase in homes entering the market. There were 521 new home listings in April, up from 398 in March. April 2008 had 532 new home listings. Lylene Johnson, a real estate agent who tracks the NWMLS data, said the new sellers she’s talked to are well aware of the realities of the current market. ‘Many of them realize they won’t be getting what they once thought the house was valued at, but many are also establishing a bottom line that they won’t go below to sell it,’ Johnson said.”
The Olympian from Washington. “Last month 196 homes sold in Thurston County, down 31 percent from the 284 homes that sold in April 2008, combined single-family residence and condo data show. Overall, the Thurston County median home price fell 11.5 percent to $232,600 in April 2009 from $262,725 in April 2008.”
“One reason median prices fell in the year-over-year period is because builders have adjusted to changes in the marketplace by building a more affordable home, said real estate agent Bob Jorgenson. Also creating downward pressure on home prices are the number of ’short sales’ in the county, said Doug Burger, owner and broker of Burger Professionals in Olympia.”
“‘One-third of our deals are short sales,’ he said, adding that in some cases lenders are taking as little as 70 percent of what is owed on the house. ‘That’s driving prices down because the banks are saying it is cheaper for them to do this than go through the foreclosure process.’”
“Jorgenson said some prospective buyers still are waiting to see whether mortgage interest rates fall lower; others are worried about their jobs, Burger said. ‘We find a lot of buyer hesitation,’ he said.”
The Seattle Times from Washington. “If the Seattle residential real-estate market is coming back to life — and that’s still a big if, despite a relatively upbeat monthly report Tuesday — it’s because of people like Lori Gifford. She and her fiancé, Scott Brush Goodwin, bought their first house last month. It’s a two-bedroom, one-bath former rental in the Arbor Heights neighborhood that the previous owner lost last year through foreclosure. Goodwin and Gifford paid Washington Federal Savings $249,000 for it.”
“When they started looking again this spring, the difference in prices was ‘jaw-dropping,’ says Goodwin, who works for a travel company. Their new house is small — 820 square feet atop an 820-square-foot unfinished basement. But it sits on a huge lot, nearly half an acre, with a peekaboo view of Puget Sound. And, according to county records, the price they paid is just $14,000 more than what the owner who lost the house to foreclosure paid for it — in 2002.”
“The land was a big part of the property’s appeal, Gifford says. There’s room for a workshop, maybe a greenhouse, maybe a deck someday. The house itself has a new roof and recently remodeled kitchen, but ‘it looked as if people had trashed the place,’ Gifford says.”
“After a stressful nine-month search that began in 2007, John Bowers and Monica Jackson bought a $448,000 home in Seattle that was far from their ideal. On the plus side, it was in a neighborhood they loved, close to friends and good public schools. If they didn’t jump on it, they feared being priced out for good.”
“But there were considerable drawbacks. A big one: They couldn’t afford the monthly payments in the short term without tapping into savings. And, with two bedrooms and one bathroom, it was a tight squeeze for the married couple and their two young children.”
“‘We have the worst timing,’ said Jackson, a substitute librarian with the Seattle Public Library system. ‘We bought in April 2008, and within two months, everything crashed. We saw the signs in other parts of the country, but everyone said Seattle was different.’”
“On a good month, their combined take-home pay hovers around $4,600, and about $3,000 of that goes to their mortgage payment, which has a fixed-interest rate of 6 percent and includes taxes, insurance and private mortgage insurance. ‘There’s nothing extra,’ Bowers says. ‘We don’t have cable and we don’t go out. We don’t get coffees and lattes. All the things that they tell you to do, we’ve already done.’”
“‘We’re hoping that the loan modification is going to be the key to all of our problems,’ Jackson said. ‘If we can get the payments more affordable, we’ll be in a much better position.’”
Oregon City News. “As the price of housing droops in the Portland area, development fees levied on new homes being built continue to rise, according to a new study by the Home Builders Association of Metropolitan Portland. ‘It’s becoming disproportionate to the price of a house and onerous to the buyer of a home,’ said said Ernie Platt, the association’s director of local governmental affairs and the man who compiles the annual survey.”
“Homebuilders are pleading with local governments to abate some fees, to spur more housing development during the recession. But that’s not flying. Instead, development fees appear to rise steadily each year, sometimes according to indexes pegged to inflation. ‘They never go down,’ Platt said.”
“School advocates often argue that homebuilders get off easy when it comes to system development charges here, because the Oregon Legislature, under pressure from the homebuilders’ lobby, barred the charges to pay for new schools. In other states, development fees for schools often are the costliest system development charge.”
“However, the Oregon Legislature in 2007 enabled school districts to create a construction excise tax on new projects to defray some of the cost of new schools. That roughly equals $1 for every square foot in the home. The homebuilders’ study did not include the new school construction excise tax in their recent survey, though the majority of area school districts have agreed to levy the new tax.”
“‘For a 2,500-square-foot home, that’s another 2,500 bucks,’ Platt said.”
“An Oregon man has admitted operating a Ponzi scheme that bilked more than $3 million from mostly elderly investors. Dennis R. Thaut of Marcola pleaded guilty to multiple counts of theft at a hearing in Lane County Circuit Court on Wednesday. Thaut, who ran First Security Financial from a restored Victorian home in Eugene, faces 10 to 15 years in prison at his June 16 sentencing. The sentence cannot be less than 10 years, said Bill Warnisher, a deputy district attorney.”
“The probe started when investor Zelma Randles told authorities that Thaut had rejected a request to close her account and refund her money. Randles gave Thaut $75,000 in 2004, believing the money would be used in a real estate investment with a two-year term that paid an annual interest rate of 9.25 percent. When Randles requested a cash-out payment in accordance with the agreement, Thaut told Randles the funds were not available.”
“He told Randles the money was with a mortgage company. After Randles contacted the firm, she concluded that Thaut was a liar. ‘It’s not just that we lost money,’ Randles, 76, said in an interview with The Register-Guard newspaper. ‘We thought we had a trusted friend and adviser, and he ended up being a wolf in sheep’s clothing.’”
The Register Guard in Oregon. “The Willamette Valley was a hot spot for subprime mortgages four years ago, according to an investigation published Wednesday. Many of the nation’s top 25 subprime lenders were highly active in Lane County until the market meltdown in late 2007. The firms — most now defunct or sold to avoid bankruptcy — include Washington Mutual, Countrywide Financial Corp., New Century Financial Corp. and First Franklin Corp.”
“It means a lot of families are going to go into foreclosure,’ Sen. Jeff Merkley said Wednesday. ‘They may be able to afford the payments quite handily when the payments are at 6 percent (interest) but when the payments (change) to 10 percent, they can’t. There’s just no way they’re going to be able to make those payments. And you’ve got unemployment thrown in on top of that, throwing fuel on the fire.’”
“‘You’ve got a lot more poor people — people on the edge who are not really qualified to own a home and they’re desperate for it,’ said Robert Roth, a retired financial fraud investigator who follows the mortgage finance industry closely. ‘You had a lot of people without the money to own a home motivated to want one.’”
“Into the fray came Seattle-based Washington Mutual Bank. Through its Long Beach Mortgage Co., the now-dissolved WaMu was the fifth most active subprime lender in the nation, making $65.2 billion of these loans from 2005 to 2007, according to the Center for Public Integrity, which made an in-depth study of 7.2 million subprime loans made between 2005 and 2007.”
“The consequences for consumers are devastating, the senator said. He estimates that 20,000 Oregon families will lose houses to foreclosure this year. Oregonians not only took out a lot of straight, subprime high interest loans. Oregon also ranked near the top for exotic pick-a-payment loans and negative amortization loans in which the amount the borrower owes may actually grow, instead of shrinking, as time passes.’
“In 2003, less than 2 percent of the home loans made in Oregon matched that description, according to First American CoreLogic. By 2006, the proportion had soared to more than 20 percent.”
“‘The reset date on those loans is coming due now. Over the next 12 to 24 months, the bulk of these loans will have their first major reset,’ said Angela Martin, spokesman for the Portland-based political group Our Oregon. ‘That’s where we’re going to see Oregon — and the Willamette Valley in particular — continue to struggle with very high home foreclosures. It’s a mess.’”
“Bad loans would have been avoided ‘at the retail level, if we had required transparency and fairness and fiduciary responsibility from the broker to the borrower, like we do in the real estate market,’ Merkley said.”
“Instead, the senator said, ‘We’re going to have a couple difficult years.’”
‘Oregonians not only took out a lot of straight, subprime high interest loans. Oregon also ranked near the top for exotic pick-a-payment loans and negative amortization loans in which the amount the borrower owes may actually grow. In 2003, less than 2 percent of the home loans made in Oregon matched that description…By 2006, the proportion had soared to more than 20 percent.’
Yep, and this data was there for anyone to see. As was the incredible lack of affordability, Fed cluelessness, and the pressure on appraisers, on and on.
‘Merkley, D-Ore., has a long-standing interest in the lending industry. He said he was asked by Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd Wednesday to conduct hearings on predatory mortgage practices in the coming months.’
So the people in charge, who stood by and in some cases even got sweetened loans, political contributions, etc, are doing the ‘investigating’? IMO, more hearings aren’t neccesary. Let’s just start cleaning house.
“As was the incredible lack of affordability…”
When one understands Oregon, and how poor many of it’s people are, they quickly realize that house prices are absolutely laughable in most areas of the state. There is serious pain coming down the pike for the state. The price of land is equally insane, propped up by some wacky state law.
That was pisses me off the most. A lot of those responsible for the current mess have been tasked to:
1. Clean it up
2. Investigate it
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
“Stupid, stupid, stupid.”
More like :
Criminal, criminal, criminal.
hey fellow bubble heads,
i have been following a few of your blogs since 1995, ever since i saw my sister buy a house and a year later sell for 200k more than she paid. I knew something was wrong, in fact i almost bought a condo in 2000 in tempe arizona but walked becasuse the bank wanted 9% interest at the time even though i was putting 50% down. at the time part of the problem was me not being able to document my income…well we know they threw that out the window. anyhow, i decided to keep renting and have rented since 1987. in the meantime i have travelled to europe many times and built a nice nest egg! I have never hated being a renter!
today, i signed on my first house in phoenix for a little over 80k, i should have the keys monday! it had multiple bids and i went up $1001 on my first offer. when i heard it had mulitple i was thinking is this 2006? the house is ready to move in and no major work required. i will redue to floors and paint the inside. the bank asked if i was going to live in it and if i was a first time buyer…yes to both. i think that helped me get the house. also, i also get the 8k tax credit. i have read in the last couple months sales are really picking up in phoenix, i asked the title company and she said the last couple have been really busy. i know now there is only a 2-3 month inventory under 150k. i heard sales are now where they were at the top of the bubble. i think this year we will eat up alot of inventory due to buyers like myself and affordable prices. i’ll be cutting my bills in 1/2 so that leaves more cash for some world travel!! no more applying to rent an apartment or annoying neighbors that like to look in my windows. yeah, my new neighbor is a little strage! i’ll put window screens on the house for that..lol
anyhow, an all cash deal and i may go for another if prices come down more next year….so good luck to all you bubbleheads….i hope you get the house of your dream too! i feel lucky as i never thought i’d get a house for this price ever! i figured id just keep living with noisy neighbors and have a big bank account!
you’ve been lurking on blogs since 1995? that’s probably why you were never president, mr. gore!
Congratulations on your patience, your wisdom, and your success. Ben’s blog educated yet another former renter, who now has no reason to be bitter!
Let’s just start cleaning house.
Ben, the sad fact is, the average American has become a herd creature. Look at what they voted for by way of “change” - yet another marionette put forward by the our unelected rulers and financial “elites.” Granted, he was the lessor of two evils, but once again, the Sheeple chose Tweedle Dee over Tweedle Dum. So while your appeal to “just start cleaning house” may resonate with the thinking 1% of the population, the vast majority will simply continue to go through life with the same bovine complacency they’ve always had. They may mutter trite phrases about how bad things are getting, but they lack the intelligence or circumspection to connect their passivity and perpetuation of “business as usual” to the Bozos that are “leading” us to ruin.
It appears that the MSM has no intention of ever questioning why the “Federal Reserve”, an international banking cartel, holds all the keys to power. Could it be because they “own” both major parties? Is the reason we now shovel dollars by the trillions into every financial thing going, because the “Fed” always collects interest from we the taxpayers? Great game: put on a puppet show every four years and watch the marks cheer and boo like it’s Wrestlemania. Then make them take out trillion dollar loans and get paid interest via the IRS.
The Fed: everybody’s ’silent’ partner for life
cobalt, I think you got it right regarding higher deficit spending = more profits for the Fed/owning banks, and that they own the politicians.
I don’t doubt a link with the media, but…I’m not quite sure where they fit in and how they profit from this? Certainly they have a financial incentive to have a positive bias towards their advertisers. But beyond that? Why favor the government/banks?
“the deal was so appealing investors rushed to plunk cash into the club”
Evidently so. When the lender has to pitch ‘their’ loan to… ‘you’. And that’s just how insane things were. You or I could have come up with a “deal” scrawled out on a bar napkin and gotten a loan.
But what does that say about 2004, or the times in general?
It says we missed our chance to cash in on stupidity!
Ben’s observations are spot on. All of this was plain to see for anyone that even bothered to look. Since civilization is so spread out in the Mountain states and PNW, this stuff stands out like a sore thumb.
I don’t recall, and I don’t want to spread an irresponsible rumor but is Blixseth showing up for his medicine or is he “unavailable”? Last we heard Credit Suisse is at least attempting to repo his uh… private island and swanky diggs in the south of France. Is he facing fraud charges? Allegedly?
Tim Blixseth is no longer associated with Yellowstone Club. If I’m not mistaken, his ex-wife Edra got that golden goose in the divorce settlement.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!
It wasn’t as much of a golden goose as it might have appeared:
Edra Blixseth files for bankruptcy
What a big mess!
“It wasn’t as much of a golden goose as it might have appeared:”
That was my point!
Tango In Uniform,
I was going to post a link but it was too painful.
It reminded me of the scene in “Back to School” where Rodney Dangerfield confronts his wife with a photo of her, “Ramone” ( the pool boy ) and… what’s that midget doing in there!?”
HTF did Greg LeMond become involved, and now Tim wants to buy the club back ( at pennies on the dollar of course! ) and… the divorce and… her property in SoCal… It’s as if these REIC’sters truly believe the whole world revolves around them and their “Ultimate American Soap Opera”. It’s getting too close to lunch!
That movie has some of the best one liners. I loved Rodney Dangerfield and Robert Downey Jr in Back to School. I have the DVD and have watched it a few times.
One of my favorite lines by him is:
Thorton: Oh, we were doomed from the start. I’m an Earth sign. She’s a Water sign. Together, we made mud.
Nothing clever to add…just another Back to School fan here, in case anybody’s doing a head count.
Lemond was an early investor in YC. When he decided to cash it in several years ago the Blixseths tried to stiff arm him and low-balled him on the price for his share. Lemond sued them, and during the discovery process all sorts of rocks got overturned about the Blixseths’ financing and appropriation of funds for their own lavish lifestyle, including the Credit Suisse loans. He was the proximate cause of all this coming to light.
He won in court and got a chunk of money, but YC declared bankruptcy just as he was collecting. As I recall the Blixseths also tried to kick him out of the club; he owns a place there.
He so screwed her in the divorce. But she lives on a 26 acre estate out here in the desert.
“Doug Burger, owner and broker of Burger Professionals in Olympia.”
As one career in Burger flipping is replaced by another……..
I think it’s a typo. It’s supposed to be Burglar professionals.
From the original post:
“‘One-third of our deals are short sales,’ he said, adding that in some cases lenders are taking as little as 70 percent of what is owed on the house. ‘That’s driving prices down because the banks are saying it is cheaper for them to do this than go through the foreclosure process.’”
Hmmm, what’s this? A come to Jeebus moment for banksters?
What happens when more of them realize that short sales are cheaper than foreclosing? And suppose those short-sale crewcuts come to more than 70 of what is owed.
Looks like it adds up to (gasp!) even further reductions in home prices.
They will always be saying that such-and-such a phenomenon is “driving prices down,” as if there were some “natural” price that would be higher than what they get in a short sale (or whatever other phenom is blamed for “driving” prices down).
…as if there were some “natural” price…
You put your finger on one of the slippery aspects of this whole mania. People have it burned into their brains that RE prices only go up and so the fact that they are falling has to be “unnatural”, the result of some external force.
To the people who watched friends and relatives walk away with small fortunes in the short period in history when that was possible, this downturn is just something to wait out until they can get their piece of Appreciation Pie.
Jeeze, Ben, I was thinking with all the green shoots sprouting up this spring, you would be running out of new material to post by now…
Actually, these days I just pick an area, do a little searching and have enough for a post. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Can you pick up Southern Indiana and Kentucky area?
I do those areas all the time. Try the search function in the sidebar. I will make an effort to cover your area more often Maria.
Truly Amazing.
The quote “After a stressful nine-month search that began in 2007, John Bowers and Monica Jackson bought a $448,000 home in Seattle that was far from their ideal. On the plus side, it was in a neighborhood they loved, close to friends and good public schools. If they didn’t jump on it, they feared being priced out for good.”
“But there were considerable drawbacks. A big one: They couldn’t afford the monthly payments in the short term without tapping into savings. And, with two bedrooms and one bathroom, it was a tight squeeze for the married couple and their two young children.”
“‘We have the worst timing,’ said Jackson, a substitute librarian with the Seattle Public Library system. ‘We bought in April 2008, and within two months, everything crashed. We saw the signs in other parts of the country, but everyone said Seattle was different.’”
“On a good month, their combined take-home pay hovers around $4,600, and about $3,000 of that goes to their mortgage payment, which has a fixed-interest rate of 6 percent and includes taxes, insurance and private mortgage insurance. ‘There’s nothing extra,’ Bowers says. ‘We don’t have cable and we don’t go out. We don’t get coffees and lattes. All the things that they tell you to do, we’ve already done.’”
“‘We’re hoping that the loan modification is going to be the key to all of our problems,’ Jackson said. ‘If we can get the payments more affordable, we’ll be in a much better position.’”
House is about 10x income (net or gross? Doesn’t matter). Cnnot pay mortgage even initially without taping “savings”. And what savings today has typical American with 50k income?
They were toast before they moved in. And, “loan mods” will be the key to getting help?? Yah. Sure.
I remain amazed. My evildoc income is $250k. More than I’d ever imagined earning. And despite claims that 3x income for house is “reasonable”, I remains staggered at the thought of taking on a 400-500k mortgage. And taxes?? In Syracuse a glorious 500k home, 6000 sq ft. 5 acres in suburb, pool, tennis court that i’ve seen on the listings has $20k/yr in TAXES. Before maintenance and utilities!
How are folks on $50K income “buying” $500k houses (yes, I know how. Yes i’ve read the blog since like ‘05. The questions is rhetorical)????
At least they weren’t priced out forever.
Oh, we so are only in the third inning of this game.
regards
evil
Welcome to one of the biggest bubbles in the entire country: Seattle.
Now they don’t want to be ‘priced in’.
Bought in April 2008. A shining example of “tightening credit”.
Well, there you are SDJ! That was a hoot in LV.
Hi Ben! When are you coming to San Diego? We’ve got lots of sunshine!
‘When are you coming to San Diego?’
Actually I am going out to SD around the first week of June. Anybody got any ideas?
As for the sunshine, it’s kinda funny, we got that here in Flagstaff too. But we ain’t got surf.
Hey,
Stay in lovely Az. Most people do not know that the first week in June in So.Ca. is colder than the first week in Jan.!!!!!!!!
We go to Az. the first week in June to get away from the May Grey or the June Gloom. If it continues, as it has, into July, then it is Bummer Summer.
Go to Sante Fe for that week, fun, sun and good food. Plus some good history if you like,
J.
Hi Ben! When are you coming to San Diego? We’ve got lots of sunshine!
Well, don’t forget the PNW. We have lots of …ummm…
Rain and moss?
Hey! Rain and moss is good!
And you know what, that’s prob’ly better for a pale-skin Scotts-boy anyhow, right?
‘don’t forget the PNW’
I haven’t forgotten you guys OG. I have to be in SD on some important biz, and then I’ve got to get over to Florida for the documentary people. How about after that? I’d love to roam the PNW beer scene with you folks. Hair of the Dog Brewery, anyone?
I want Ben’s life
And a shining example of the higher educational system. Both of them have master’s degree and he is enrolling for a Ph.d and yet together they don’t earn $60k.
More education always seems to be the answer.
evil,
To pay 4% of purchase price as RE tax does seem absurd. Are you talking Syracuse NY? Is that tax rate typical, or does it reflect a recent assessment much higher than the new price?
I believe the Syr, NY tax rate quoted is fairly typical. 200k houses with 8 k taxes.
As an aside, and i’ve not seen this written much, I do suggest inter-location prop Tax rate thing has certain quirks.
$20k seems high in Syr for $500k house, maybe half that or less in Long Island, but is price the controlling factor, really?
Perhaps doing a pe sq foot thing would be more reflective.
Thus, Tax millage is way higher in cheap upstate NY relative to say San Francisco at peak of bubble, but $500k house gives much bigger house here. So, at millage-per-sq-foot the comparo is more fair.
Of course, I s’pose some towns have cheap houses and low millage
House is about 10x income (net or gross? Doesn’t matter). Cnnot pay mortgage even initially without taping “savings”. And what savings today has typical American with 50k income?
I have just one question: Was a Realtor(tm) involved in the sale?
These people have absolutely no business buying a house at that price on their income. Who made the loan?
How many “professional” people lined their pockets with fees for services by “helping” these poor people go broke?
a substitute librarian who can’t READ & THINK ……….D’OH
I never even knew there was such a thing as a substitute librarian. I have learned soo much on this blog.
Bbbutt, you’re going to be priced out forever!
Oh, I forgot. Maybe I accidentally drank some Kool-Aid this morning.
Click your heels 3 times and keep repeating:
A house is a liability. A house is a liability. A house is a liability.
They couldn’t afford the monthly payments in the short term without tapping into savings.
This is the dead giveaway that they wanted to flip. You don’t tap into savings for a MORTGAGE unless you’re planning to move out in less than a year. And you don’t buy a two bedroom house for two kids unless you’re planning to trade up the property ladder.
They wanted to flip a few times up to a McMansion, I’m sure of it. Bring on the joshua tree.
I know, I know…this is something I don’t get. How do people sleep at night when they have a $300, 400, 500,000+ mortgage hanging over their heads? How on earth did they sign those documents without their hands shaking too much to hold the pen?
I guess that’s why I’m told sometimes I’m a “worrywart.” Also that I “take things too seriously.” I guess it’s also why we have a modest home…with no mortgage.
I don’t know much about owning a condo building, but something tells me that a 17 story building that only has a few residents starting at opening doesn’t bode well.
From the Boise Weekly article:
“The Royal Plaza has 14 of 26 units occupied, the CitySide Lofts sold 23 units of 64, and the Jefferson Building closed on 10 percent of its 43 condos. As downtown swells to accommodate this new residential population, steps are being taken to ensure the needs of what could become Idaho’s first real urban neighborhood are being met.”
I believe sentence two is a bit incongruous with what we read in sentence one. “swells”?
Urban living comes to Idaho. You know there’s no land out there? Nowhere to build but up!
Its DA VIEW….DA VIEW datz what I am paying for DA VIEW
Da View of BOIseee.
Who the heck would buy a condo in Idaho. The biggest benefit of living in places like that (I grew up in Montana) is not having to live right on top of your neighbor! No zero-line lots, no town houses, no condos. Big plots and sensible sized houses. Now they’re trying to force an urban neighborhood?
Good Lord, too funny. When TangoInUniform presented his video analysis, it even looked silly. Right, I’ll buy a condo in Bozeman or Boise or..?
The raw acreage the wife and I have looked at in Southern Oregon are fairly cheap. Then again, there’s no utlities to the property? No electricity, phone, city water, city sewer and of course no cable. ( Sounds perfect to us? )
Distance makes good neighbors.
Mending Wall
…
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him,
But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’
–Robert Frost–
Get of my lawn you darn elves! Young whippersnapper elves, running around pulling down all the walls!
Get of my lawn you darn elves! Young whippersnapper elves, running around pulling down all the walls!
Now THAT was funny.
Hey our planning offices have been telling us for years that the young and the elderly are just dyin’ to live close to services and enjoy that edgy urban experience! Everyone knows that, right?
Right?
They started building those high-rise condos in downtown Boise several years ago. Not only did the real estate market tank, but also many of the reasons for living downtown. About half of the decent restaurants went bust in the last year or so - really a shame.
BoDo (”Boise Downtown”) is the Boise equivalent of Ghirardelli Square in San Francisco: a funky old brick wharehouse district converted into trendy shops, bars, and restaurants. The BoDo condo they discuss is built sharing a wall with a high-rise parking garage for BoDo and faces the main drag across from the arena where they hold ice hockey games. I’ll bet those guys in the condos won’t sleep well with late-night rowdies making noise at 2AM.
There’s a certain personality type who demands to live “downtown” at all costs. My nephew is like that - he bought a high-rise condo in Seattle 2 years ago. You’d think at his age (42) he’d be too old for nightly barhopping.
Yes, but such folks who crave the city life at least know to move to a real city: NY DC Seattle LA SF Boston etc.
Sharing a wall with a highrise garage: beware of the car alarms.
C’mon, those 50-odd people are tripling the population of downtown Boise.
Jimmy,
But that was the “appeal”. Same deal here in PDX’s fabulous Pearl District. A pathetic attempt at creating a ( yes I actually believe this ) “singles scene” for married/aging boomers.
By artificially creating a “scene” people can mingle just like it was Manhattan or other heavily populated areas. Get tired of your spouse? There’s another one coming around the street corner! At least it seems to me that was the aphrodisiac they were trying to sell?
A “scene” with all sorts of late-night noise? That has “Baby Boomer Relocation Magnet” written all over it!
Arizona Slim, lavi d,
I… don’t know? I’m clutching at straws here trying to explain the inner ( and twisted ) mind of the REIC-marketer and explain the allure of all of this?
I’ve kidded about my vacation home ultimately looking like a “movie set” to have fun at these people’s expense, but… prove me wrong here? It’s as if they were trying to recreate the whole American in Paris theme complete w/ tiny ( but oh so interesting shops, ALL selling the same basic cr@p ) and… the store fronts and the bakeries etc.
Just once before I die I’d like to say that I really accomplished ’something’? Building a self-sufficient homestead just might be the ticket?
I’m clutching at straws here trying to explain the inner ( and twisted ) mind of the REIC-marketer and explain the allure of all of this?
I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for people like me.
After I found myself single again, it just didn’t make any sense for me to hang out in the ‘burbs. I definitely prefer an “urban” scene just so it’s easy to get out and meet people.
I’m waiting for the lease on a 2bdrm high-rise on the Strip to go under $1500/mo.
Tick-tock…
At least it seems to me that was the aphrodisiac they were trying to sell?
I think you got something there. As a single/aging boomer, the prospect of being around lots of women my age is certainly more attractive than the thought of idling away alone out in the boonies.
As a single/aging boomer, the prospect of being around lots of women my age is certainly more attractive than the thought of idling away alone out in the boonies.
Tell me what your secret guv-mint project was. And then I’ll tell you where cute boonie-women lurk.
Amazingly enough, Boise is the third largest city in the PNW, only behind Seattle and Portland. It really does have a “downtown” with high-rise office buildings, a state capitol building, a symphony hall, museums, and other indicia of urbanity.
But it does have ongoing problems. The most famous is the “Boise Hole” which yields a long sad story when used as a search term on Google.
It’s now 22 YEARS since the redevelopment agency razed a building on the most prime intersection in town: 8th and Main. Many have bought it and planned a high-rise. All have failed and gone bankrupt. All that’s there is a hole in the ground with a huge concrete and rebar foundation for a 25 story building.
Here’s one history:
http://www.boiseweekly.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A310459
Boise hole? Is that like what happened at the end of The Crying Game?
You are totally on one tonight. I can’t wait to see the police report.
“‘The bank’s story is entwined with a booming national economy and people investing in vacation homes all over the West.
Vacation homes my a$$, I have the average vacation time for an American worker and two weeks of that is eaten up yearly by a year end shutdown. So given I have two weeks off do I really need to buy a freaking house to vacation at ? Those homes are pure speculation.
I know of two cases where the vacation home just got sold. In one case, it was a second home in Tucson. I’m told that when that couple comes snowbirding this way again, they’ll be renting.
“The land was a big part of the property’s appeal, Gifford says. There’s room for a workshop, maybe a greenhouse, maybe a deck someday.”
How about building a real HOUSE you fools, living in an 800sqft cottage isn’t going to cut it for long. Oh I forgot you paid $250K for a barbie doll house and are now broke. Enjoy living a$$ to elbows !
While I agree that these folks grotesquely overpaid, a half acre is a nice size lot for Seattle. There is ample room to add on to the house. Personally, the lot is always more important to me than the house. That said, over $300 psf is nuts- especially at this stage in the game.
BanteringBear,
I was going to comment on that in the OT but I can’t agree more. One of the marketing features the REIC has beaten to death over the last several years is that:
Homes that require -any- effort are for FLIPPING! It’s about “gettin’ paid”. No fool would put in so much as drywall in the laundry room without expecting big fat stacks of cash!
Any home you would actually be ’seen’ in -has- to be “turn key” w/ flawless curb appeal from Day 1.
and… 3. There is no middle ground.
My wife was originally annoyed by, but has come around to being amused at my attitude of wanting to buy the biggest POS on the street… as long as the lot is decent. I don’t want to pay for some flipper’s shoddy polishing. I’ll do my own polishing and I’ll do it right, thank you.
sfbubblebuyer,
Hopefully that window is beginning to open. In many cases over the last several years any time “I” saw a fixer, it was priced as if the work had already been done and now it was -your- job to find a GF? ( Again the emphasis on profit, not occupying )
In others, the home was such a basket case, you were more or less paying for a “lot”. Further, a ‘lot’ with a lot of liabilities! In fact at this point, I’d almost prefer… it was just the lot.
One of the places we actually put an offer in, I lowered the price because the house was still on the lot. It had been redtagged and was WAY out of zoning compliance, so there wasn’t a chance in hades of ever ‘fixing’ that house. I figured out what the lot ought to be worth, knocked of 30k for bulldozing, then another 30k for it being ugly. Then another 30k because I felt like it. Then I lowballed from there so I had negotiating room. They didn’t take my offer, but I’m at least convinced that if I had gotten it, I would have STILL come out ‘behind’ on that particular deal, not matter how ‘cheap’ it was.
The person who eventually bought it payed 33% more than my generous estimation of what the lot was worth without the house, and was still at 60ish% of the original asking price.
DinOR, I so agree!
I don’t want to pay $50K for some $25K blue-light special kitchen from Lowe’s. Nobody seems to want to enjoy their homes anymore. It’s all about the shiny.
Has anyone ever really seen somebody fill a stockpot from that extra spigot in back of the stove? Or actually used ALL SIX burnes on the stove? I used to cook myself a week’s worth of meals at once and never used more than 3 burners.
“In many cases over the last several years any time “I” saw a fixer, it was priced as if the work had already been done…”
I remember seeing this as far back as about 2002 which is when I started to get the feeling something wasn’t right. Apparently there was demand for fixers so they automatically marked it up to near retail value because they knew that people were buying not to live there, but to fix up for profit. Very frustrating.
“Why should HE get the profits? I’m the one who owns the house.”
Well, HE should get the profits because to the victor come the spoils.
“Has anyone ever really seen somebody fill a stockpot from that extra spigot in back of the stove?”
Those are funny… I find myself wondering: if you can’t lift the pot ONTO the stove, how will you manage to lift it OFF the stove in order to pour it down the drain at the sink when you’re done?
No no, see Prime, you do this while you’re “entertaining.” You make the stock or soup in the pot while everyone is standing around in your $40K kitchen drinking good wine. Then you serve the soup right out of the pot a ladleful at a time, while everyone gushes with praise and says “Ooh, Prime, what a great time we are having! We love your kitchen! You are so wonderful! You are so successful to afford the extra spigot! You must have such a long…” yes well you see where this is going.
The point is, you never have to lift the pot. Good gosh, have you never watched Martha Stewart?!?
The point is, you never have to lift the pot. Good gosh, have you never watched Martha Stewart?!?
I completely adore your snark-tasm, and now I want to know how to make the green envy emoticon.
Then, after I learn, I’m gonna go drop a full pot of water on my foot and bust every single bone in it.
Prime, if you do ever have a soup and wine party, after one of your days of sailing, I’d definitely appreciate an invite. I’d laugh at the ridiculousness of it all, but I do like wine, and if I drink enough, well…the rest doesn’t matter, right?
So if you found a home that was well-built, in a great established neighborhood, superb location, low taxes, wonderful yard, appropriate square footage, etc. etc., for a sensible and affordable price, BUT it had, say…linoleum floors in the kitchen…you would give it a miss? Seriously?
If you read the whole story, there’s an 800 square foot basement too. But the house was sold as a “fixer-upper”.
The house itself has a new roof and recently remodeled kitchen, but “it looked as if people had trashed the place,” Gifford says.
To qualify for the Federal Housing Administration financing they wanted, Gifford and Goodwin had to patch some walls, install gutters and make electrical repairs.
“On a good month, their combined take-home pay hovers around $4,600, and about $3,000 of that goes to their mortgage payment, which has a fixed-interest rate of 6 percent and includes taxes, insurance and private mortgage insurance. ‘There’s nothing extra,’ Bowers says. ‘We don’t have cable and we don’t go out. We don’t get coffees and lattes. All the things that they tell you to do, we’ve already done.’”
Okay, here’s a couple of FB’s whose housing cost is 65% of their take home pay. And they can’t / won’t stay in their home without modification help from the gov’t. But I’m sure when they signed their loan documents, it was all worth it for the RE riches that surely awaited them. But now it’s a different story.
Conventional standards are about 30% of take home pay for housing expense. So I can’t imagine there will be too many qualified buyers today who could make these folks whole financially. And take this story and multiply it across the country.
“[not] too many qualified buyers who could make these folks whole financially”
…Yup, all 37 of us are right here at HBB, and not a single one of us is volunteering to go through with it.
“‘We’re hoping that the loan modification is going to be the key to all of our problems,’ Jackson said. ‘If we can get the payments more affordable, we’ll be in a much better position.’”
You’d have been in much better position renting you two idiots.
Yeah, for some reason their “calculated risk” simultaneously ignored the fact that they had moved 6 times in 14 years and the amazing fact that housing prices were far outpacing incomes.
“I can’t afford this house and I have a history of moving frequently. WHERE DO I SIGN??”
“Howmuchamonth”?
‘You had a lot of people without the money to own a home motivated to want one.’”
And that’s when the words “NO” “NOT QUALIFIED” are supposed to be used. Some people will be lifelong renters and need to get over the entitlement disease.
Probably the only time these people heard the words “no” and “not qualified” was when they applied to be…tenants!
Ain’t that the truth. I recall a story out Stockton way where some woman decided she just had to move school districts for some reason, so she bought a new house a few towns away - without selling the one she ‘owned’ first. At the time it was the easiest thing to do, way easier than going through the hassle of filling out a rental application. Heck - they do a credit check on you!
“‘The reset date on those loans is coming due now. Over the next 12 to 24 months, the bulk of these loans will have their first major reset”
I wish the idiot at the San Jose Mercury News could get this through her empty little head, we keep getting the “bottom is in ! Inventory is down !” articles.
We are getting the same disinformation here from the fourth branch of the government aka the media. It’s all good, crisis over. Like I said earlier just ignore that foreclosure elephant in the corner.
Yeah, that mean foreclosure elephant’s stomping all over those green shoots.
Well, I still count on the MN for some of the best stupid UHS & FB quotes. Careful what you wish for.
yeah that article about the poor willow glen people who couldn’t cash out at their wishing prices to fund their early retirement was a classic alright. But I’m a paid hard copy subscriber to the MN so I hate paying for my blood pressure to go up as I read some of the nonsense Sue McAllister writes !
“If they didn’t jump on it, they feared being priced out for good.”
Why are people still acting on the assumption that real estate always goes up? Haven’t they noticed that prices are dropping almost everywhere on the planet?
Emotion and speculation are the hallmarks of our economy’s sustainability, eh?
She said it right in the article: “We saw the signs in other parts of the country, but everyone said Seattle was different.”
Uh yeah, right.
Even now the uneducated masses whose main preoccupation is celebrity gossip and American Idol are easily fleeced by the members of the NAR who manage to take advantage of the uninformed by encouraging bidding wars. I still think the NAR encourages criminal behavior.
“It Went Far, It Went Fast, Then It Stopped”
Sounds like some flings I had in college.
Zing?
I think they have medicine for that now.
Bink, family blog! I was talking about hang-gliding.
Sinkhole swallows home in Spring Hill
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article998807.ece
Spoiler: The owners are happy about it.
If you read it, they moved into the house 23 years ago, but the house is worth less than the owe on it. They claim it’s less than they bought it for, but I don’t see how that’s possible. I’m sure it’s worth less than they owe on it.
From the article :In particular, Jim Bates wanted to salvage his “toys” — two water scooters and a motorcycle — from the garage.
Gee, I wonder where the money went?
Yah, I’d be pretty happy if I’d looted my equity and then the house disappeared leaving me a big fat check to pay off the loan. Free money! TAX FREE MONEY!
“They claim it’s less than they bought it for, but I don’t see how that’s possible.”
You’d have to know Spring Hill to understand how that’s possible, and trust me, it IS possible. Because of the sink holes, which have been haunting Spring Hill since at least 2000, when I moved to the Tampa Bay area. You can get a house in Spring Hill for a smile, if you want one. And other than the fact that the substrate is like swiss cheese, it’s kind of a nice little area.
Sink hole season is just getting cranked up around here. Wait until the rains start, then it’ll be a real hoedown hootenanny. And I firmly believe it wouldn’t be as much of an issue if it weren’t for the rampant development.
I spoke with a rep from BofA and asked him about loan modifications. He said that there are 2 problems he is seeing. First, most of the workout required a max 105% LTV and a lot of people are screwed on that. But he also said a new program is starting where people can state their income, provide no documentation, and refi their underwater mortgages for as low as 1%.
The reckless people won. And to pay for their BS anyone buying a home without 20% down is going to pay for their actions.
The other problem is that BofA doesn’t want to do modifications if there is insurance involved. They prefer to let the place go into default, since they would be paid in full through insurance.
Honestly, this country ruined my life.
banana,
By ‘insurance’ do you mean PMI? I’m sure you do, right?
Yes and not just ‘your’ life either. LOL!
I can fritter away the hours searching for (1) aspect of my life that *hasn’t been affected by this. Still coming up w/ blanks.
banana, I think you should put this in tomorrow’s Bits Bucket, or perhaps a weekend topic. It’s important info and could use a good discussion.
Like, do you have a link, or any info about this “new program” of NINJA refi’s. That’s a massive game of kick the can.
“When they started looking again this spring, the difference in prices was ‘jaw-dropping,’ says Goodwin, who works for a travel company. Their new house is small — 820 square feet atop an 820-square-foot unfinished basement. But it sits on a huge lot, nearly half an acre, with a peekaboo view of Puget Sound. And, according to county records, the price they paid is just $14,000 more than what the owner who lost the house to foreclosure paid for it — in 2002.”
What’s a ‘peekaboo view’?
What’s a ‘peekaboo view’?
In most cases it means: ‘If you have a second story and you go stand in the tallest window of it and crane your neck and if the wind happens to be blowing the trees the right way at that time and if your neighbor hasn’t added a seecond story to his own house, then you can catch a glimpse of water.’
Is what that means.
The fog breaks for a split second and you can see the water. Then, poof, its shrouded in mist again.
It means that you have to go up on the roof to see a smidgeon of Puget Sound.
That means on a good day when it is actually clear and the breeze is blowing juuuuuuuust right so it moves all the branches of the trees on the properties in front of them, if they stand in a corner of their house and stretch to stick their heads out the window….they can get a glimpse of Puget Sound in all its polluted glory!
Jeeze, DDX, we freakin’ channeled each other. Some sort of Pugety astral vibration, no doubt.
What’s a ‘peekaboo view’?
If you stand on your tip-toes on the back porch, you can just glimpse a sliver of ocean horizon between the pines, beyond the houses behind you, past downtown.
You have to stand on a footstool in your 2nd bedroom’s bathroom window so see a glimmer of ocean/river/bay through the trees of your neighbor’s backyard. and that’ll cost you 100k
Right, and don’t let the power lines spoil it for you either? My fave in Portland is “Hood view!”
Who gives a rip?!
The Olympian from Washington.
The Olympian? Isn’t that the paper that Oly Gal has her column in, “Treefrogs and Tiaras”?
Thanks to Ben, I saw this precious Olympian article HERE before I held the actual newspaper in my hands. (recently I been hearing about the oncoming demise of actual newsprint. Jeeze, ya think?)
But I will hold the precious relic in my little pink hands later today, and verily I shall save the article to frame, with joy.
In the Cooper Point Road area of Olympia, median prices in April increased 16 percent to $276,000 from $238,145 in April 2008. Prices also increased in the Boston Harbor Road area of Olympia, jumping 10 percent to $360,000 from $327,500, the data show.
Median prices for homes in those areas, which offer views of Puget Sound, could have been affected by sales of waterfront property, Jorgenson said. There’s not a lot of new construction in those areas so sales of more expensive waterfront property might have skewed median prices higher, he said.
Maybe. Cooper Point and Boston Harbor really are very beautiful areas, and centrally located, lots of water and trees and only 10-15 minutes from downtown Oly and I-5. There are some quite palatial houses along the shoreline and the zoning in the past was such that there are lots of jammed-together houses with real, non-’peekaboo’, nice Puget Sound views.
Everyone I know on Cooper Point loves it and pretty much wouldn’t move unless truly forced to, so I can see sales being perhaps more sticky than in other areas in Thurston county.
But here’s the thing: Sticky like a giant banana slug stuck to the glass deck doors, for example. It’s sliding down slowly, but slow or not, the thing is, the trend is DOWN.
Don’t forget, if you add salt to that banana slug it starts to dissolve right in front of your eyes
I just chuck ‘em in the forest, as I can’t abide salting a slug, even though they’s bigger than me on a one by one basis.
Long ago there was a big old heap of cast-off slugs, but they joined together and commenced building a wee city and creating a rudimentary language
….now that I think of it, this may well end badly.
It gets a little comical when small town newspapers provide more compelling accounts of the housing bubble than anything served up so far by the banking industry apologists who work at The Board.
“He told the Idaho Mountain Express that real estate sales in Victor and Driggs were nearly nonexistent, and foreclosure proceedings had begun on many properties.”
“‘The bank’s story is entwined with a booming national economy and people investing in vacation homes all over the West. It’s the story of how a banking system became engulfed by a speculative market in which eye-popping growth ultimately could not be sustained,’ said the newspaper.”
“‘The phenomenon transformed small towns into bustling boomtowns. It made savers look silly and speculative spenders look like geniuses. Lasting more than a decade, it looked like it might never end,’ the Express continued.”
“‘It went far, it went fast. Then, like a car hitting the proverbial brick wall, it stopped.’”
LA Times billed me in advance for a full year, albeit at the good-guy rate. I said OK. The next month they filed for bankruptcy. Maybe it’ll look like USA Today in the last month of my $100 annual prepaid subscription.
Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon said:
Bad loans would have been avoided… “at the retail level, if we had required transparency and fairness and fiduciary responsibility from the broker to the borrower, like we do in the real estate market.”
Umm, that’s nonsense.
How about this re-write:
Bad loans would have been avoided at the retail level if borrowers were required to make 20% down payments!!!
It’s time for a new speechwriter, Jeff. Repeat after me: A house is a liability. A house is a liability. A house is a liability.