The Housing Bubble

My mother passed in 1999. If your mom still lives count yourself lucky.

Polly,
Boy can I relate. My mother has a PhD in guilt and misery. Having the quintessential narcissist and pita for a mother can be a challenge. Oh she can be nice, but it usually means its a “butter” job.

I hope your mother can put the h*ll of your pain in perspective. I send my care and a hug. Pain sucks.

“If you honetly like your mother, count yourself lucky.”

Polly,

No truer words have ever been spoken. I used to feel like there is something wrong with me because the fact is, I plain *don’t like my mother*. I don’t like her. Period. I’ve since gotten over the guilt of that fact after my siblings have finally gotten a gasp of sane air and expressed the same sentiments as me but I was first to refuse to get sucked into her madness. Most of my siblings have establish inflexible boundaries when it comes to dealing with her. It’s a very dry relationship with her now. Weather is about the only topic we allow ourselves to be sucked into when dealing with her.

See, the thing is, my mother isn’t a complet narcissist. She just has a limited capacity for caring and I am always at the bottom of the list. Love the time she made me promise to take care of my brother and uncle finacially (not let them starve) at a time when I was out of work. Right now my Dad, who just had much more serious surgery, and my brother, whose wife is about to produce grandchild number two, are all she chooses to think about. When my father had his surgery, her original plan was to send him to the hospital by himself and not show up until the next afternoon. Why? Because she is too scared to drive home from Boston and thoguht calling a cab to take her to the train station was “too complicated.”

Like I said, not a complete narcissist (that would have been my Dad’s mom), but very very limited in her ability to deal with life which is a problem since she is not even 68 yet. Every once in a while I wonder if she blames me for not convincing them to get out of the market before the crash - I did tell them when I got out and why, but she follows Bob Brinker and didn’t pay any attention.

What a bunch of contrarians…hating mom on mother’s day.

But I guess I’ll call her today. I suppose in a way she did give me some tools to make good decisions as an adult. Whenever I wonder if I should do something (or how best to do it), I think about what she and/or my stepdad would do and then do the opposite. Works every time.

Interstingly, a few weeks ago voz posted that he missed his father. It made me think, if my parents were dead I don’t think I would miss them at all. Not that I don’t have any feelings, I’m sure I would be sad if one of them died but I wouldn’t really MISS them on an ongoing basis. Neither really offers anything of benefit to me.

So, with my pending parenthood, I’ve decided that I at least want to be missed if I die. What I mean is hopefully I will offer to my daughter some guidance or knowledge or wisdom or something that is useful to her in her life on an ongoing basis and perhaps be a source of further guidance or information. Perhaps that is one measure of a successful parent…?

I’m happy to know others aren’t so fond of certain family members. I get along well with my mom, but I can’t stand my oldest sister. She’s an evil narcissist. One has to experience one of these people to understand how horrible they really are.

so that I can be there for the party when my nephew is born,

That’s the part I don’t get. When did day of birth become on occasion for a party? Who says you have to be there? I sure as hell wasn’t at my nephews’ births. I was on the road working and living my life. It seems like families are creepier and more suffocating than every. I can’t stand all the “birthday parties” my in-laws have for barely cognizant toddlers. Junior’s third birthday invariably morphs into into hours of standing around and sitting around, boredom drinking and snacking while staring into yet another air-polluting bonfire while the kid tears around on his new baby-sized ATV. BFD.

I will be flamed for this. So be it. Polly,exter,wipeout,you all seem to be smart people. It’s Mothers Day. Using simple logic, if you had no mothers you would not be here. Not to mention your mom carried you ungrateful rear ends around for 9 months, and, at great deal of pain, gave you life.

She changed your daipers. She fed you. She may not have done the best she could, but since you seem to be smart people she must have done something right. Today, one day, give her a call and tell you you love her.

I’m sorry if I have insulted you. I’m sure if we met to trade screwed up mother stories I could keep up with you all.

But I will tell you that 10 years after your mother is dead and in the ground, time will have softened the imperfections, and most of what will stay with you are the good memories. And always remember, you are part of your mom. And she will always be part of you. Like it or not. It’s just the way it is.

We’re Jewish. The bris happens when the baby is 8 days old. It is a religious ceremony and my brother will be very hurt if I don’t show up. And his wife is very into families being together for happy occasions. She lost her father when she was a young adult and it means a lot to her. The doc said the first big improvement will be about three weeks after the procedure and I should not plan to travel long distances before then, especially if I am going to drive. So I’ll wait. I’d rather not, but I will.

I agree that the huge, over the top parties for toddlers are a bit much. They end up crying when too many people touch their stuff anyway. Kiddie electric cars are a whole other ball game. I bet the Hummer folks actually thought they would be able to build brand loyalty in the munchkins. And the FBs are not going to have room for them in the rentals they move to when they have to leave the McMansions.

What I mean is hopefully I will offer to my daughter some guidance or knowledge or wisdom or something that is useful to her in her life on an ongoing basis and perhaps be a source of further guidance or information.

Well, since you’re already arguing with your wife about how to manage your daughter’s freakin’ allowance, and she hasn’t even got born yet—- let alone learned how to drive to the Mall and flirt with pimply boys and waste her allowance on cheap frippery and inappropriately tight clothes— I imagine you will be a diligent and attentive daddy. And we’ve all read your posts for many moons now and I’m sure everyone else, like me, finds you to be perceptive and good-hearted. So, what more could a daughter want?

a new car? a pony?

I dunno…ur a daughter. I’m a son. Why are you asking me?

bluprint,

Just my personal opinion, but having lived with a narcissistic mother (who was highly critical) and passive-aggressive father (who never gave advice even when you wanted it), the best advice I can give is to just “be there” for your kid(s).

Be loving, accepting, loyal, helpful and kind to your kids while balancing that with teaching them about responsibility, dependability, honesty, and integrity.

All too often, parents mean well when they want to give advice and guidance, but that advice and guidance should not interfere with your relationship if your child decides to do things differently.

You are on the right track because you are thinking about this right now, which is a good indication of what kind of parent you’ll be. I’m sure you’ll do very well and have children who greatly appreciate you.

Enjoy your soon-to-be new family!

Thanks though your experience is a lot worse than mine. And I will let people know about the surgery. It is looking like June 19th so far. Very minor. I’m told the crutches are likely to last anywhere from 4 minutes to about 4 days. The doc I didn’t like told me physical therapy was a must. The new one says most people just need to do a few exercises but more can be arrange if there is a problem. Guess which doc owns a financial interest in the physical therapy place…

C&B, BP, That’s great you have a workable relationship with your respective mothers. I don’t nor do my siblings. When you walk a few miles in my forty-something shoes, then judge. I was merely identifying with Polly’s challenged relationship with her mother.

Polly,
Do you have a P O Box we can all send get well cards to? You’re such a special lady, I would love to send you one, as I bet everyone at hbb would.

I found PT a waste of time, after I learned what to do. You’re disipline too, so if you “must” go, get the scoop and do it at home (if you can) Mine was transferable to solo sessions. I was bed ridden/wheelchair for 3 weeks, crutches for 4 weeks, and finally started to walk. So, I would assume you’ll be in better shape post op. I got my figure back quickly, since I had one pre-op.

You’re bright and wonderful. What a delightful combo.

Polly, awaiting wipeout, exeter: that’s just freakin’ horrid. I’m truly sincerely sorry to hear it.
My own mom is just a well-meaning devout brain-washed dingle who relies on prayer and Jeebus to take care of things. That wistful attitude produced some deeply unpleasant results, but at least she didn’t MEAN to do it to us. It wasn’t like all cunning and mediated and seriously evil. (That was my dad’s job. Ha! )

Man, just drink some beer and count the hours until Mother’s Day is allllll gone for another year, is my advice. And I shall go pray that one day all of your mom’s get to sit down and really spend some quality time with themselves….

*Like there’d be a better punishment.

Ex my reply got messed up…I’m in agreement. Don’t like my moms either. No judging here…

“The doc I didn’t like told me physical therapy was a must. The new one says most people just need to do a few exercises but more can be arrange if there is a problem. Guess which doc owns a financial interest in the physical therapy place…”

see if you can get one of the electronic stim machines its pretty neat just tape the electrodes to your leg above the knee and turn it on it will work the mucsle and you can watch TV or read a book.

Closing a credit card account brings down your FICO. Use it for a small purchase every month or two, and pay it in full on time. Don’t screw yourself.

Good points.

Yes, good post, polly.

BTW, hope you have a quick and easy surgery and recovery. Best of luck!

PTT,

Afraid you’re probably right about them extending all the give-aways.

Michael, I can really empathize with what you’re feeling. We’ve been bubble-sitting since mid-2004, and were **finally** starting to see sanity return to the housing market, when WHAM, the govt gets involved and gums everything up again.

It’s exceedingly frustrating, and we DON’T want to get into bidding wars with future FBs.

They are making this process as painful as possible for all people, especially those of us who tried to do the right thing by not living under mountains of debt.

To be fair, I believe they did identify the street, without identifying the subdivision or development. But it flashed by so fast, I didn’t quite get the name.

Seeing ads now for PI attorneys looking for Chinese drywall victims. The story on the news made clear that insurance doesn’t cover it.

DennisN, I haven’t researched the whys and wherefores of USDA loans. I read something in the local fishwrap a couple of weeks ago about the Ruskin area getting money from the USDA. Ruskin does have a certain amount of “agricultural” activity, like tomato farms, tropical fish farming, strawberries, some citrus, etc. When I was at loose ends and looking for a place to rent, I rather innocently walked into what I was told was a new apartment complex, only to find out it was subsidized housing for agricultural workers, and you had to be employed in the ag business to live there.

My guess is, the USDA lending is justified by the area, not the individual property. I was rather surprised they would lend on a home in Riverbend, which theoretically would be beyond the means of most ag workers in the area. But I predict this house, if is IS purchased by an ag worker, will be occupied by extended family members, or perhaps they’ll rent rooms out, in order to pay the mortgage.

Hi, dave, thanks for the update. exeter took a look at the house in the listing and was surprised the area is as you and I have described it. Since you had actual experience living there, I thought you would be a more credible source to put the place in perspective. But I can understand how people would find it difficult to believe that the place is crime infested.

Yep, got my new digs. In Sun City Center. No jokes, now. I’m just old enuf to live here, it is calm and quiet and you can’t beat the facilities. Three pools, fitness center, all sorts of clubs and stuff. Great place to hang your hat if you’re over 55.

On another note, I recently spoke to a local lady, she and her husband bought there for $240,000. OUCHIE! That’s the way she feels, too. They thought it would be great for their kids, but they’ve already experienced having their car broken into. They really regret having purchased there but are gamely trying to make a go of it.

Riverbend is one of the poster children for bubble development for sure. But there are enough residents that it isn’t going to be plowed under any time in the near future. I feel sorry for anyone who purchased there at peak, or at any time, for that matter.

Just screwed up trying to post. OK second try - Good for you, Sun City is a decent place for retiree and or close to it. We eat out on the weekends but there really isn’t much choice there - a couple decent places in Brandon but the traffic is ridiculous. We are in the same boat here - have to go to Bradenton or Sarasota which is a pain. It’s telling how phony any idea of wealth is in this area, thousands of expensive homes and few decent restaurants. HMMM - they can afford these places but can’t afford to eat out ???? Yeah. We are retiring in about 2 years and are trying to decide where to settle in central FL. We’ve decided against SW FL though - to be polite it’s a little too pedestrian - not being snobbish LOL.

I wouldn’t consider Riverbend terribly crime infested. It’s not crime infested at all. I live there. There are several police related residents that live there as well, my husband being one of them. Some of the problems that were reported recently came from a group of teenagers who LIVE in Riverbend and come from good homes. Unruly teenagers do not make an area crime infested, you can have misbehaving kids ANYWHERE. I love the block that we live on. It’s filled with wonderful families that take pride in the community. FYI, the local Pop Warner Football/Cheer association was started by families in Riverbend. We maybe upside down on our home, but we don’t plan on moving anytime soon.
And yes the Chinese drywall story was in Riverbend, it was one of my neighbors infact. Still good people, good community. Bad drywall. We will get our drywall fixed and stay with OUR community. Your community is only as good as the people in it.

I think certainly will tempt some people as, on the surface, it appears to be $8000 of free money…
Considering the average income in this country (especially the flyover) it looks like a big gift until you look in the horse’s mouth, which as we know a lot of them won’t do.

bellies = belies

Heard the same here, from many people. They are buying because of the credit.

You are right, Tim. This is a gift to the seller. As a matter of fact, I’m convinced that almost ALL gifts/write-offs/deductions/etc. are for the sellers’ benefit, not the buyers’.

It would be great to see a market that is free of all this manipulative money. One can wish…

When resources are handed out for free (or below market rates), standards on how to allocate those resources also drops. Hence, lower lending standards was a result of free money.

Look at it like this, a bank can get endless supplies of money for nothing. Why wouldn’t they lower lending standards? At worse they lose something which didn’t cost them much anyway.

This isn’t rocket science. When people have to work hard for money, they are going to be more dilberate with regard to how they save/spend that money. On the other hand, when they get money for nothing (or very little) they won’t take care of it as well. You can frequently see this behavior in children typically, as well as lottery winners.

“You can frequently see this behavior in children typically, as well as lottery winners.”

Spending other people’s money certainly does feel much different than spending the money that was earned by the sweat off your back.

Comment by bluprint
2009-05-10 10:01:30
When resources are handed out for free (or below market rates), standards on how to allocate those resources also drops. Hence, lower lending standards was a result of free money.

Absolutely, 100% correct!!!

You will rarely (if ever?) see loose lending practices when money is tight (and expensive/high interest rates).

They are very much correlated.

You only have to read the thread that Ben has posted above this one to know that this problem is much deeper than the Bush Administration. I wish it were as simple as you suggest, but we have an entire generation of politicians that has bought into the fallacy the gov’t promotion and subsidies for housing are an economic positive.

Frank,

I agree and we’ve gone over the genesis of this thing a thousand times on this blog. The seeds had already been planted. It was the fuel. The spark was the public policy that was entirely “Ownership society”. Basically it was a willingness to look the other way while the criminal activity took place.

I certainly don’t mean to suggest that the “ownership” society was not a large part of the problem. My point is that the mentality that created those policies still exists and still guides public policy. Yes, those policies were a disastrous failure, but evidently not bad enough to have them re-examined.

Ex, the “ownership society” helps explain one catalyst of how the bubble got into housing, but it doesn’t explain the bubble itself; for example, how did the bubble get into stocks first? (which led to the 2000 bust)

This is a macroeconomic monetary phenomenon first and a housing phenomenon second. Honestly, I am more interested in the macroecon/monetary aspect, mainly b/c it (macroecon and monetary policy in general) is just something I am interested in. But I also consider that to be the “root” problem and am not as interested in what particular form it manifests.

To your point however, there is a fair question to be asked as to whether the bubble was directed into RE deliberately. Presumably, the “ownership society” rhetoric and various policy changes that made loans for regular (rich and poor) folks easier are tools that would have been used if we do accept this conspiratorial consideration.

If we make this consideration, then we must also consider the possbility that it (the ownership society and supporting stuff over the past few adminstrations coming from DC) was a political coincidence and not part of a scheme to enslave the voting populace. You have to admit that “own your very own home” is politically popular, and politicians tend to latch on to things that get support of the drones.

Either way when the stock bubble busted that money (read: bubble) had to go somewhere. If not RE, then it would have been something else.

Being that the housing bubble started in about 1997, and the Ownership Society stuff started in 2003 - no, it’s not the only cause. It is a significant contributor, however.

“To your point however, there is a fair question to be asked as to whether the bubble was directed into RE deliberately.”

A popular theory: After the dot-com bubble burst and 9/11 attacks, the economy’s predicted growth rate was roughly 1% — not enough to get Dubya re-elected, so the plan to stimulate the economy with cash from home equity extraction was born. Well, here we are at intermission time, but there’s no cash or financing available for the buttered popcorn and frankfurters. The second half of show will be endured on an empty stomach.

I also have a 5th wheel trailer, so we could be snow birds if it gets too cold, but my wife grew up on Ohio and I in Spokane so cold weather is something we have experienced.

Congratulations, Fresno Dude!

That’s going to be a change from Fresno, but hopefully, a very pleasant one.

Giggle. Smirk.

http://www.ourpublicservice.org/OPS/programs/psrw/

Enjoy.

I didn’t see anyone in diapers. Dumb.

No, they counted overtime

Buy it unroasted. It keeps longer. And fresh-roasted is best anyways.

Weird thing is, I don’t drink coffee, but I know a lot about what makes good coffee.